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Mike357
07-09-2011, 9:55 PM
Hey all,

I have a question for all ca leo's. Its not if one caliber is better than another, ie 9mm vs. 45acp, or 40cal vs 9mm etc. My question is about expansion in hollow points any caliber 9mm, 45acp, 40cal etc. I want to ask specifically about 9mm, since I can buy it much cheaper than other calibers and practice more often with that caliber. I have a friend in AZ who works in corrections, and would not recommend anything smaller than 40cal and personally uses 45acp. He says that 9mm can over penetrate and possibly hit an unintended target. Any thoughts would e helpful, thank you.

ironcross
07-09-2011, 11:06 PM
Here is the ballistic data from my Sheriff's Department, for the .40S&W from a G22.

http://le.atk.com/pdf/San.pdf

Notorious
07-09-2011, 11:43 PM
That's just outdated or incorrect information.

We use the RA9T Winchester Ranger +P+ 9mm 127 grain ammo and it is a powerful round which will not fail you if you do your job. It expands quite reliably as any other Ranger design.

That being said, a pistol round is a weak choice at best for close personal protection only. Any pistol round can fail, including the 40 and 45. Hardball ammo in any caliber can overpenetrate. JHP in any caliber can overpenetrate if you shoot through barriers that stuff up the cavity and make it act like a hardball.

45 can overpenetrate like anything else. Even if you use non+P at 850fps or so, it can still go through a person just like a 9mm at 1,150fps.

With modern ammo, there is no real discernable difference in the handgun calibers in real world performance. If overpenetration is a concern, use frangible ammo. That's your only real guarantee.

Samuelx
07-09-2011, 11:54 PM
Hey all,

I have a question for all ca leo's. Its not if one caliber is better than another, ie 9mm vs. 45acp, or 40cal vs 9mm etc. My question is about expansion in hollow points any caliber 9mm, 45acp, 40cal etc. I want to ask specifically about 9mm, since I can buy it much cheaper than other calibers and practice more often with that caliber. I have a friend in AZ who works in corrections, and would not recommend anything smaller than 40cal and personally uses 45acp. He says that 9mm can over penetrate and possibly hit an unintended target. Any thoughts would e helpful, thank you.

If you go with any of the calibers you mentioned above, you're gonna have to change your screen name...

Notorious
07-10-2011, 12:32 AM
Unless he gets a 40 then converts it to 357sig.

ironcross
07-10-2011, 12:38 AM
That's just outdated or incorrect information.

We use the RA9T Winchester Ranger +P+ 9mm 127 grain ammo and it is a powerful round which will not fail you if you do your job. It expands quite reliably as any other Ranger design.

That being said, a pistol round is a weak choice at best for close personal protection only. Any pistol round can fail, including the 40 and 45. Hardball ammo in any caliber can over penetrate. JHP in any caliber can over penetrate if you shoot through barriers that stuff up the cavity and make it act like a hardball.

45 can over penetrate like anything else. Even if you use non+P at 850fps or so, it can still go through a person just like a 9mm at 1,150fps.

With modern ammo, there is no real discernible difference in the handgun calibers in real world performance. If over penetration is a concern, use frangible ammo. That's your only real guarantee.

While that may be true. Only information on the books for my County SD. Also is so true about over penetration.

Unless he gets a 40 then converts it to 357sig.

LOL! :rofl::willy_nilly:

Notorious
07-10-2011, 9:23 AM
Sorry, I was referring to his buddy saying that 9mm presents an over penetration problem while his trusty 45 wouldn't. That is just flat out incorrect.

ironcross
07-10-2011, 9:26 PM
Sorry, I was referring to his buddy saying that 9mm presents an over penetration problem while his trusty 45 wouldn't. That is just flat out incorrect.

Ah, 10-4, Code 4.:rofl:

jerkyg
07-22-2011, 1:06 AM
Just find a round that has good expansion...and hit your target. Double tap...center chest...two times...or, chest and head. I have been shooting since I was 5 yrs old...as my kids have also.

Most coppers are the worst shots...every night before going onto the streets...I would go to the range (yes, we had a range in the basement...free rounds...how can you say no???) And I would have other coppers ask me why I would do that? Huh?

Read too many times..."Police shoot suspect 45 times...shot in leg and buttocks"....huh?

Stay safe...

TrailerparkTrash
07-23-2011, 9:22 PM
That's just outdated or incorrect information.

We use the RA9T Winchester Ranger +P+ 9mm 127 grain ammo and it is a powerful round which will not fail you if you do your job. It expands quite reliably as any other Ranger design.

That being said, a pistol round is a weak choice at best for close personal protection only. Any pistol round can fail, including the 40 and 45. Hardball ammo in any caliber can overpenetrate. JHP in any caliber can overpenetrate if you shoot through barriers that stuff up the cavity and make it act like a hardball.

45 can overpenetrate like anything else. Even if you use non+P at 850fps or so, it can still go through a person just like a 9mm at 1,150fps.

With modern ammo, there is no real discernable difference in the handgun calibers in real world performance. If overpenetration is a concern, use frangible ammo. That's your only real guarantee.

+1 what Notorious said.

...especially about the part that all the "Ranger" loadings from Winchester are EXTREMELY reliable especially in their 9mm line up! Very good proven performers on human scum that needed to be shot by the police. :D:D

jerkyg
07-24-2011, 12:02 AM
Bottom line...you have an intruder in your home and you shoot at him/her...and miss...or, even if you dont...the round could very well travel through many walls. Do you have kids, wife, grandma and grandpa??

That is why...you should instead have a tactical shotgun..20" barrell and pistol grip. This would lesson the chance of the bad guy grabbing your weapon as you make corners. Load it up with number 8 shot...at close range will still be a man stopper. And not be able to penetrate many walls.

Stay safe...

Notorious
07-24-2011, 3:43 AM
Bottom line...you have an intruder in your home and you shoot at him/her...and miss...or, even if you dont...the round could very well travel through many walls. Do you have kids, wife, grandma and grandpa??

That is why...you should instead have a tactical shotgun..20" barrell and pistol grip. This would lesson the chance of the bad guy grabbing your weapon as you make corners. Load it up with number 8 shot...at close range will still be a man stopper. And not be able to penetrate many walls.

Stay safe...

You serious? Why not go with an 18" instead and load it with #6 shot?

jerkyg
07-24-2011, 4:11 AM
as i recall..the legal length is 16 inches in CA...but, i remember that 20" is the limit on most tactical shotguns. if i am wrong...then go with the 18 inch. but with 6 shot? at 6 to 8 feet...the usual limit of a shoot out...i actualy believe it is less than that...why would one go for a larger shot size? especially because my point was that the smaller shot will not go through too many walls. at 6 feet...the bad buy will die with 8 shot. why take the chance of getting more penetration in your own home with your kids? that is the point...unless, you live alone and far away from your neighbors. and why is this an issue? i made an important point...cant we talk about that instead? 18 inch....6 shot? is that really germaine to this point???

stay safe...

You serious? Why not go with an 18" instead and load it with #6 shot?

center_x
07-24-2011, 4:28 AM
Not to change topic, but please correct if im wrong, shotgun barrels have to be 18", but maybe different for LE. Rifle barrels is the 16" rule.

Notorious
07-24-2011, 5:53 AM
as i recall..the legal length is 16 inches in CA...but, i remember that 20" is the limit on most tactical shotguns. if i am wrong...then go with the 18 inch. but with 6 shot? at 6 to 8 feet...the usual limit of a shoot out...i actualy believe it is less than that...why would one go for a larger shot size? especially because my point was that the smaller shot will not go through too many walls. at 6 feet...the bad buy will die with 8 shot. why take the chance of getting more penetration in your own home with your kids? that is the point...unless, you live alone and far away from your neighbors. and why is this an issue? i made an important point...cant we talk about that instead? 18 inch....6 shot? is that really germaine to this point???

stay safe...

I get the gist of your post, but if you say manueverability and retention are key, then why give up 2 more inches to bang against a wall or let the bad guy grab onto as you break the threshhold?

In CA (and federal law), shotgun barrels have to be 18" while rifle barrels have to be 16". The 20" barrel tactical shotgun is milspec derived from the M590, IIRC, and not necessarily a civilian equivalent. Police Rem870 are all 18.5" barreled and most Mossberg M500 Persuaders are 18.5" barreled.

I just said 6 shot because it is still pretty small and can be stopped by drywall but makes more of a dent on a human target than the 8-1/2 shot which is little more than a steel bb that you would use in an airgun.

jerkyg
07-24-2011, 7:00 AM
Notorious,

I will defer to your knowledge...been awhile since I looked up the penal laws on that. They are ever so changing...and a lot of times, I don't check because they usually don't pertain to me.

I have shot water jugs with 12 guage 8 shot at around 10 feet...and the damage is not something I would want to be on the receiving end. So, 6 shot or 8 shot...it is just that I have kids...and if 8 shot will not go through two sheet rock walls....then, that is what I use.

And that was my point about having a short barrel tactical, pistol grip shotgun...not to have it taken away. Maybe we should do a test on sheet rock...yes? I have no problem going to ace and getting some and doing a test. That would be not only fun (shooting sh.i.t and blowing it up) but, an interesting experiment. Different shot size...distance...

What do you say...are you on?

Stay safe...



I get the gist of your post, but if you say manueverability and retention are key, then why give up 2 more inches to bang against a wall or let the bad guy grab onto as you break the threshhold?

In CA (and federal law), shotgun barrels have to be 18" while rifle barrels have to be 16". The 20" barrel tactical shotgun is milspec derived from the M590, IIRC, and not necessarily a civilian equivalent. Police Rem870 are all 18.5" barreled and most Mossberg M500 Persuaders are 18.5" barreled.

I just said 6 shot because it is still pretty small and can be stopped by drywall but makes more of a dent on a human target than the 8-1/2 shot which is little more than a steel bb that you would use in an airgun.

Notorious
07-24-2011, 6:04 PM
I get the gist of what you are saying and you are right. I have a 18.5" Rem870 that I converted to pistol grip (Hogue) and single point bungee sling looped on top with a railed forend that holds a M3 light. It holds 7 shots in the tube and that is plenty.

Remember... Dick Cheney shot his friend in the face close range with birdshot and his friend lived... with no real permanent effects. Just depends on the distance and angle, I guess. But you are right, I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of any kind of shot coming out of a 12 gauge, even if it is the smallest bb size available. It's still going to hurt!

jerkyg
07-24-2011, 6:52 PM
Actually, by what I remember...his friend was far to his right...and just caught some shot in his face. So, Notorious...I am gonna do a test this week. Will pick up some dry wall...and do a test. We shoot all the time. I actually have about 100 rounds of 8 shot pellets....don't say BB...that is a different shot size. And I have shot lots of the 8 shot just to shoot...and it blows things up. At 8 feet...the pattern is about 3 inches around...concentrated...with a mod choke. I shoot this with my Mossberg 12 guage at 20 inches...interested in seeing the penetration though.

My Rem...is an 870 also...but, that is my duck gun...for many years. I bought that because that is what we used in the PD. They never jammed...and my gun has been in dirt, mud, rain, etc...flawless...shot too many ducks to remember. Rarely ever clean it...

Will let you know what happens....not a totally scientific test...but, should give us some idea.

Stay safe...

Jonathan Doe
07-24-2011, 7:06 PM
The bullets' behavior cannot be predicted. I have seen many premium JHP bullets go through a body and hit something else. 38 Sepcial, 9mm, 40 S&W and 45 Auto all did that at one time or another. So did 223 and 308. I would not worry about over penetration.

Notorious
07-24-2011, 7:06 PM
Here ya go... our airgun steel bb (.177") is roughly twice the size of your #8 shot.

I would be pretty interested to see how the #12 shot holds up as it will go out like a cloud of lead powder which will break skin but not carry all that much kinetic energy once it starts moving through air.

http://cdn.mqstatic.com/files/gunslot/imagecache/page/images/59793.jpg

jerkyg
07-24-2011, 7:16 PM
If it goes through one wall...that is over penetration...if your child is in that room.

Stay safe...

The bullets' behavior cannot be predicted. I have seen many premium JHP bullets go through a body and hit something else. 38 Sepcial, 9mm, 40 S&W and 45 Auto all did that at one time or another. So did 223 and 308. I would not worry about over penetration.

jerkyg
07-24-2011, 7:19 PM
Don't know about 12 shot size..."airgun"...?

I am excited about doing a test with the 8 shot...12 guage....with dry wall. Will take pics too....

Stay safe....

Here ya go... our airgun steel bb (.177") is roughly twice the size of your #8 shot.

I would be pretty interested to see how the #12 shot holds up as it will go out like a cloud of lead powder which will break skin but not carry all that much kinetic energy once it starts moving through air.

http://cdn.mqstatic.com/files/gunslot/imagecache/page/images/59793.jpg

oddjob
07-24-2011, 10:42 PM
Another factor to consider as far as a an agency purchase (choice) of ammunition is the "state contract." There could be other "high speed wazoo" type of ammo out there, but the agency is restricted. Just like the patrol cars.

To the OP I would have to disagree with your friend in AZ about 9mm overpenetrating....But I do agree with with the carrying of a 45 acp. I carried a 1911 for many years.

How many folks have been hit (shot) due to a round going through the torso of a suspect and hitting an innocent person? I'm sure its happened, but it has to be rare.

jerkyg
07-24-2011, 11:29 PM
Hey Odd...

I believe this post was or was going towards home defense. That is why Notorious and I were going to do...well, at least I...because I can walk outside and do it....get some sheet rock tomorrow...and do a test about penetration regarding a shotgun. Type of shot shell..etc..

I don't believe a test of handgun rounds is needed. We all should know that most handgun rounds will penetrate numerous walls.

For all on here...tell me if you would be interested in this? Otherwise, I will simply send him the pics and my results.

Stay safe...

jerkyg
07-25-2011, 12:08 AM
Notorious...

I have no problem with spending some bucks today on the sheet rock...

But, let me know if these tests will be ok...I am planning on doing #8 shot out of my mossberg...20"...modified choke. Take two "half inch" pieces of sheet rock....place them away from each other approx. 5 inches...trying to simulate a "wall". I will shoot at 6 feet...and 12 feet. What I would see as the max. distance in a home. I will take pics of all the results. Please...if you can...share with me how to attach these pics. When I have tried before...it asks for a website...how do I just attatch a pic? They will not be on a website...just downloaded from my camera to my laptop.

Stay safe...

Notorious
07-25-2011, 12:23 AM
Notorious...

I have no problem with spending some bucks today on the sheet rock...

But, let me know if these tests will be ok...I am planning on doing #8 shot out of my mossberg...20"...modified choke. Take two "half inch" pieces of sheet rock....place them away from each other approx. 5 inches...trying to simulate a "wall". I will shoot at 6 feet...and 12 feet. What I would see as the max. distance in a home. I will take pics of all the results. Please...if you can...share with me how to attach these pics. When I have tried before...it asks for a website...how do I just attatch a pic? They will not be on a website...just downloaded from my camera to my laptop.

Stay safe...

That actually sounds like a pretty good protocol for simulating an indoor shooting with 6 and 12 feet being realistic distances of engagement in most typical suburban homes.

I would realistically assume that the shot will penetrate the first wall but will not penetrate the second wall after all the energy has been absorbed by the first wall. Actually... my friend has tried this in real life. He had a ND with his 20" tube Mossberg 590 and #7-1/2 shot. That is exactly what happened.

To attach pictures, make sure you are in the advanced mode and not the quick reply mode. Go to manage attachments, click it. The first box will be the one for "UPLOAD FROM YOUR COMPUTER" and you hit the "browse" button which will open up your typical query box with your file folders and icons. Find the picture on your computer that you want to upload. Repeat. You can do 5 pictures in one post. After you selected all the pictures and verify that the boxes show the correct path, click post as you would any other post. Voila! You should see your post and all the attached pictures.

P.S. Make sure the pix aren't too big and over the kb limit for the file type. Each file type has a maximum size, e.g. bitmap, jpeg, png, etc.

jerkyg
07-25-2011, 2:07 AM
Notorious...

Ok...awesome hearing that your friend did the same thing. As a guy...and I have to take that back...my daughter is also excited...about doing the "experiment". Because she loves to shoot....and did an experiment about velocity btwn a handgun and a rifle for her school project....this is going to be fun.

And if anyone is wondering...I work 1800 - 0600 hrs....thus, I wake up at all hours.

We will see what happens...it will be interesting. Thanks for the points on how to upload pics. I did not know...I am no dumb a.s.s....but, when it comes to this computer stuff...well...I rest my case and concur.

This is going to be cool and interesting...it is nice to be able to simply buy some sheet rock, cut and shoot. Most folks cant shoot out their front door. I can...

We need to talk sometime....maybe you can come up to our ranch someday and we can do some other tests.

Will let you know what happens....well, I will hopefully have pics for all.

Stay safe....

biochembruin
07-25-2011, 8:47 AM
Box o truth shotgun test:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

Notorious
07-25-2011, 4:19 PM
Actually it wasn't that awesome for my friend because out was purely unintentional. His wife was also not very amused at the hole in their bedroom wall.

center_x
07-27-2011, 1:27 AM
Im really curious about this thread. I use 3" #4 turkey shot. The shotgun link said "birdshot" isn't effective enough, yet ive stoned coyotes at forty yards.
what are your thoughts?

Notorious
07-27-2011, 7:52 AM
You got coyotes stoned?

center_x
07-27-2011, 8:34 AM
You got coyotes stoned?

Ha, yes, yes I did. Should I mention that on a PHS?? Lol

Stoned = dead in tracks!!! :cool:

jerkyg
07-28-2011, 1:15 AM
shot too many cyotes...up here...dime a dozen.

just got 1/2 inch sheet rock. had some divorce and custody stuff to take care of...hopefully i can do the test today or tomorrow.

like i said...it will be #8 SHOT...will put three sheets approx. 5 inches apart. will take pics of the results.

if you have read the threads against me...please ignore them...i am simply on here to educate..and be educated...

this will be fun...

stay safe...

TrailerparkTrash
07-29-2011, 1:21 AM
To the OP I would have to disagree with your friend in AZ about 9mm overpenetrating....But I do agree with with the carrying of a 45 acp. I carried a 1911 for many years.

How many folks have been hit (shot) due to a round going through the torso of a suspect and hitting an innocent person? I'm sure its happened, but it has to be rare.

Okay, I'm going to throw a wrench into this topic and give some "food for thought." The L.A. Sheriff's department did a training video several years ago. They compared the duty issued Winchester HP 147 gr "Ranger" load vs. Federal 55gr Soft Point .223 ammo.

The test showed repeatedly that the 9mm 147gr Winchester shot out of a Beretta 92F series weapon, actually OVER PENETRATED the traditional stucko wall of a southern california traditionally built house.

Next, they showed how the Federal .223 SP bullet DID NOT over penetrate the same type of contstructed stucko wall......

In fact, at the time the video was made, the department already had approximately 15 or more real shootings into human verman with that 55gr SP bullet, out of an AR-15 rifle(s). Not one single .223 SP bullet ever exited the human torsos on those suspects on those shootings. Not one. Basically, the bullet was so light and fast that it disintigrated upon hitting the human body or for that matter, the stucko wall. The bullets literally vaporized within the human scum that took those rounds. Remember, a SP or HP bullet performs much differently than a FMJ bullet, especially from a rifle platform.

Now, regarding the department's 9mm 147gr HP bullet, the LASD has had some instances where the bullet actually did exit the suspect(s) and even on a rarer occassion, hit a bystander. Here, the typical 9mm handgun bullet is almost 3 times heavier than the .223 bullet and also over twice as slow in velocity. Out of a handgun, no bullet can really disintigrate with such tremendous energy as a light weight fast flying rifle bullet.

Finally, there have been other tests done on dry wall with bird shot and a 12ga shotgun. If you get a chance to do your own tests with the bird shot, you'll notice one unique anomaly. With the bird shot at realatively close distances like in one's hallway of their house, the entire load of bird shot acts like a slug and punches a big hole through the drywall!!!! So at close distances, bird shot acts like a slug until it travels a bit and spreads it's pattern. Not good if your kid is sleeping in a bed on the other side of that wall I'd think.

Bottom line, what is perceived as one line of thinking in ammo selection, may actually be the incorrect decision for the job at hand.

Notorious
07-29-2011, 5:29 AM
That was an eye opening video and made people move away from the "heavy" 9mm 147 grain to the lighter, faster +P chamberings.

The best video still is the one that shows how ammo penetrated everyday objects on the street and what we can use for cover when being shot at. Then it shows cinderblock being disintegrated by rifle ammo and the dust being thrown off on the backside from rifle hits. I love the comment that if you can fit behind a fire hydrant, it is the best cover as it will stop almost anything.

retired
07-29-2011, 10:06 AM
That was an eye opening video and made people move away from the "heavy" 9mm 147 grain to the lighter, faster +P chamberings.

The best video still is the one that shows how ammo penetrated everyday objects on the street and what we can use for cover when being shot at. Then it shows cinderblock being disintegrated by rifle ammo and the dust being thrown off on the backside from rifle hits. I love the comment that if you can fit behind a fire hydrant, it is the best cover as it will stop almost anything.

I haven't seen the video since I'm long retired, but as far as I know, the dept. still uses the Winchester Ranger 9mm 147gr. round. I bought some last year when I went to the BC range to requalify for the LEOSA national ccw.

Can any of the active LASD leo members here advise as to whether they have switched to the 127gr. + round.

Notorious
07-29-2011, 11:24 AM
My county went to the 127 +P+ chambering and we all piggybacked on it.