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View Full Version : What about a 37mm beehive round, legal?


santacruzstefan
07-09-2011, 5:29 PM
Or even a 40mm, if you had a DD stamp for the launcher (what are the CA laws on destructive devices, anyway?). I don't think they make these beehive things in 37mm, but they could.

If you don't know what they are, its an insert that holds 10 .22lr rounds in individual rifled barrels, and takes a large pistol primer to set them all off in unison. How would such a thing be classified, if at all?

http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/beehive-2.JPG

http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/2009/10/13/the-beehive-hornets-nest-40mm-10x-22lr-adapter/

QQQ
07-09-2011, 5:58 PM
Wouldn't it be considered a machine gun if it shoots off more than one cartridge per trigger pull?

Not sure.

762.DEFENSE
07-09-2011, 6:17 PM
:Ivan:

dustoff31
07-09-2011, 6:22 PM
Wouldn't it be considered a machine gun if it shoots off more than one cartridge per trigger pull?

Not sure.

You're probably right. It's an interesting situation though. The insert itself isn't any type of firearm as it can't be fired outside the launcher.

When you load it into the launcher, then the launcher would become a MG. I think.

santacruzstefan
07-09-2011, 6:29 PM
I was concerned that it could be a machine gun as well, since its multiple rounds fired with one pull of the trigger. But the same could almost be said for buckshot, although thats smooth bore. Would the fact that they fire in unison have any effect on this?

AJAX22
07-09-2011, 6:29 PM
The launcher would become a DD

It's pretty straightforward

jeffsenpai
07-09-2011, 6:31 PM
amazing looking device. I want.

santacruzstefan
07-09-2011, 6:39 PM
The launcher would become a DD

It's pretty straightforward

What are the laws in CA regarding destructive devices, if the tax is paid/ everything is good with the feds?

Cokebottle
07-09-2011, 6:42 PM
What are the laws in CA regarding destructive devices, if the tax is paid/ everything is good with the feds?
Legal with a Dangerous Weapons Permit.

You are not going to get a Dangerous Weapons Permit.

santacruzstefan
07-09-2011, 6:44 PM
Legal with a Dangerous Weapons Permit.

You are not going to get a Dangerous Weapons Permit.

Well, I figured that much, unless I had a movie studio (Calguns Pictures, anyone?) but I didn't know if it was a blanket ban on the devices as classified by the ATF, or if it was individual regulations that together banned most or all of what the feds would call "destructive devices."

Cokebottle
07-09-2011, 6:47 PM
Well, I figured that much, unless I had a movie studio (Calguns Pictures, anyone?) but I didn't know if it was a blanket ban on the devices as classified by the ATF, or if it was individual regulations that together banned most or all of what the feds would call "destructive devices."
Movie studio isn't going to help much.
The permits are for filming only... not for a day at the range.

incredablehefey
07-09-2011, 7:05 PM
filming a day at the range???

Peter.Steele
07-09-2011, 7:54 PM
Launcher becomes an AOW, not a DD. I think.


http://www.atf.gov/firearms/guides/identification-of-nfa-firearms.html


Scroll down to the section for Flare Launcher Inserts.

oni.dori
07-09-2011, 7:57 PM
Movie studio isn't going to help much.
The permits are for filming only... not for a day at the range.

What if it is for maintinence, upkeep, and safety testing?

filming a day at the range???

Or this ^

AJAX22
07-09-2011, 8:00 PM
Launcher becomes an AOW, not a DD. I think.


http://www.atf.gov/firearms/guides/identification-of-nfa-firearms.html


Scroll down to the section for Flare Launcher Inserts.

gun with A bore over 1/2 an inch with anti personnel ammunition is a DD since it is not a shotgun.

(2) Any weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter (.50 inches or 12.7mm), except a shotgun or shotgun shell which the Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes; and

ElvenSoul
07-09-2011, 8:03 PM
Ever hear of a pepper box pistol...black powder and legal.

ElvenSoul
07-09-2011, 8:06 PM
http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Nock_Gun

command_liner
07-09-2011, 9:12 PM
gun with A bore over 1/2 an inch with anti personnel ammunition is a DD since it is not a shotgun.

Bzzzt. Try again!

Your assertion will come as quite a shock to all the people with large caliber
double guns, all the people with rifled muskets, and those of us with
cannons.

A 37mm beehive round that did not use fixed ammunition might be
interesting. I have a 25mm firearm which can take beehive rounds.

Peter.Steele
07-09-2011, 9:12 PM
Ever hear of a pepper box pistol...black powder and legal.


Irrelevant - it's not a firearm under the Federal definitions, since it doesn't fire fixed ammunition.


gun with A bore over 1/2 an inch with anti personnel ammunition is a DD since it is not a shotgun.

Did you look at the link?

http://www.picdrop.net/images/flare-launcher-inserts.jpg


This is from an ATF pub (http://www.atf.gov/firearms/guides/identification-of-nfa-firearms.html) regarding identification of NFA-regulated items.

This would no longer be a gun with a bore over 1/2 inch. It would be a gun with 6 bores of .224 each. AOW, not DD. I'd be more concerned about the potential issue of it being called an MG, since it would fire 6 rounds with one trigger pull.

blazeaglory
07-09-2011, 9:18 PM
You can buy inserts for a flare gun to fire real ammo? Sweet

stitchnicklas
07-09-2011, 9:57 PM
You can buy inserts for a flare gun to fire real ammo? Sweet

sweet only for the guy named bubba in the federal pen that is going to be your new boyfriend of you use a insert for live ammo...

inserts are for using smaller flares only....;)

AJAX22
07-09-2011, 10:03 PM
Irrelevant - it's not a firearm under the Federal definitions, since it doesn't fire fixed ammunition.




Did you look at the link?

http://www.picdrop.net/images/flare-launcher-inserts.jpg


This is from an ATF pub (http://www.atf.gov/firearms/guides/identification-of-nfa-firearms.html) regarding identification of NFA-regulated items.

This would no longer be a gun with a bore over 1/2 inch. It would be a gun with 6 bores of .224 each. AOW, not DD. I'd be more concerned about the potential issue of it being called an MG, since it would fire 6 rounds with one trigger pull.


The atf link glosses over the fact that the flaregun inserts they reviewed have a smooth bore. with a rifled bore it is legal if under 1/2 inch.

The smooth bore is the chriteria whereby the are aow's

the behive round is treated as 1 round with the .22 shells serve just as a sub assembly of the larger round, otherwise it would run afoul of the 1 shot per pull of the trigger and would be a machine gun (which it's not)

AJAX22
07-09-2011, 10:04 PM
sweet only for the guy named bubba in the federal pen that is going to be your new boyfriend of you use a insert for live ammo...

inserts are for using smaller flares only....;)

Not true,

If your insert is rifled it is compleatly legal, so long as you don't go biger than .50 cal

Peter.Steele
07-09-2011, 10:08 PM
The atf link glosses over the fact that the flaregun inserts they reviewed have a smooth bore. with a rifled bore it is legal if under 1/2 inch.

The smooth bore is the chriteria whereby the are aow's

the behive round is treated as 1 round with the .22 shells serve just as a sub assembly of the larger round, otherwise it would run afoul of the 1 shot per pull of the trigger and would be a machine gun (which it's not)


Then it shouldn't be anything, by that definition. It's got .22 cal barrels. With that insert installed, it is incapable of chambering or firing any 37mm projectile, or in fact any projectile other than that for which the barrels of the insert are chambered. Not a DD.

If this is a DD, then so is the insert that you'd put in a 12ga - .729 cal - to shoot rifle ammo, and for the same logic: it's a bore greater than .500.


Edit: Also, you can't consider the "beehive" itself as a round of ammunition, since you could fire the thing independent of any flare launcher. It's far more similar to a Master Key or something similar - a separate firearm that is attached to something else.

Next, would your opinion change if this device was permanently affixed to the inside of the 37mm tube? Silver soldered, say?

AJAX22
07-09-2011, 10:14 PM
Then it shouldn't be anything, by that definition. It's got .22 cal barrels. With that insert installed, it is incapable of chambering or firing any 37mm projectile, or in fact any projectile other than that for which the barrels of the insert are chambered. Not a DD.

If this is a DD, then so is the insert that you'd put in a 12ga - .729 cal - to shoot rifle ammo, and for the same logic: it's a bore greater than .500.

The difference is that since the behive is set off by an integral primer and is considered a cartridge, the bore is the original 37mm barrel.

I'm just telling you how the ATF has opined in the past. It doesn't have to be logically consistent.

The atf says a 37mm flare gun possessed with an anti personnel round of any kind constitutes constructive possession of a destructive device...

They even consider baton rounds as anti personnel ammunition...

The beehive may be legally defensible in a 37mm... but you WILL have to settle it in court if caught with one.

Peter.Steele
07-09-2011, 10:24 PM
The difference is that since the behive is set off by an integral primer and is considered a cartridge, the bore is the original 37mm barrel.

I'm just telling you how the ATF has opined in the past. It doesn't have to be logically consistent.

The atf says a 37mm flare gun possessed with an anti personnel round of any kind constitutes constructive possession of a destructive device...

They even consider baton rounds as anti personnel ammunition...

The beehive may be legally defensible in a 37mm... but you WILL have to settle it in court if caught with one.


Waaaaaaitaminute. I missed something there.

Integral primer. I didn't notice that the beehive as constructed has a separate primer That might change things.


You know, I'm tempted to write them and ask, though. Just to see what they say. Put a list of separate and varied configurations, all with the same device, to see how they'd be classified. Same gadget, but option 1 might be with a pistol grip, hammer fired. Option 2 might be pintle mounted, fired by tapping it with a hammer. Option 3 might be inserted into the flare launcher. Identical device in all 3 situations.

blazeaglory
07-09-2011, 10:40 PM
sweet only for the guy named bubba in the federal pen that is going to be your new boyfriend of you use a insert for live ammo...

inserts are for using smaller flares only....;)

Ahh.

stitchnicklas
07-09-2011, 11:11 PM
The difference is that since the behive is set off by an integral primer and is considered a cartridge, the bore is the original 37mm barrel.

I'm just telling you how the ATF has opined in the past. It doesn't have to be logically consistent.

The atf says a 37mm flare gun possessed with an anti personnel round of any kind constitutes constructive possession of a destructive device...

They even consider baton rounds as anti personnel ammunition...

The beehive may be legally defensible in a 37mm... but you WILL have to settle it in court if caught with one.

i disagree with you,most do not have the deep pockets to defend them selfs in court over this.

beehive indeed,since haveing it is like kicking a beehive over.....enjoy

hossb7
07-10-2011, 11:32 AM
I was concerned that it could be a machine gun as well, since its multiple rounds fired with one pull of the trigger. But the same could almost be said for buckshot, although thats smooth bore. Would the fact that they fire in unison have any effect on this?

negative.

buckshot is multiple projectiles inside of ONE shotgun shell.

that device is multiple individual cartridges being fired at once.

bernieb90
07-10-2011, 12:27 PM
What if it were a muzzleloader. You could preload the tubes, and use 209 primers at the rear. Kind of time consuming to load, but if legal it could be a good alternative for thise who must have one.

Flopper
07-10-2011, 1:38 PM
gun with A bore over 1/2 an inch with anti personnel ammunition is a DD since it is not a shotgun.

Bzzzt. Try again!

Your assertion will come as quite a shock to all the people with large caliber
double guns, all the people with rifled muskets, and those of us with
cannons.

The large caliber double guns, rifled muskets, and (black powder) cannons all get exemptions just like shotguns.

The large caliber hunting guns you speak of are specifically exempted from DD NFA rules for sporting reasons (just as most shotguns are), and muskets and black powder cannons are exempted because they both use black powder.