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E Pluribus Unum
01-01-2007, 3:07 PM
I would advise anyone transporting any AR series weapon that is not a registered AW to do so disassembled.

If you remove the two pins holding the lower on and transport them seperately and you get a cop that does not know the law all he can do is confiscate the lower as the upper is a non-gun.

Even if you were transporting an SB-23 assault weapon, if the lower were off and stowed seperately they would only be able to destroy the lower receiver. Your upper would have to be returned to you just as if it were a wrench or other non-gun.

Unless of course I am missing something and I am sure I will be set straight.

hoffmang
01-01-2007, 3:25 PM
E.

It is a decent way to limit your cost exposure. Personally, I know my gun is legal and don't mind the effort and cost of proving it. It tends to have a vaccine like effect of protecting everyone else in my county.

-Gene

Tzvia
01-01-2007, 3:30 PM
Like a cop that does not know better will only take the lower because the upper is not the 'rifle'? (confiscating a legal weapon implies lack of knowledge of laws and OLL situation-so good luck there). Or that the local DA will allow your upper be returned because it's not 'the rifle'? Don't think so. Once they have it, they have it, it's gone. It's theft as far as I am concerned if the gun meets sb23 to the letter. But it is gone anyway. Does anybody know if Swimmingpoolguy ever got his weapon back??

Best thing to do is transport out of sight and drive like a DMV instructor :D .

ghost
01-01-2007, 3:39 PM
what youre saying is true,but if youre in legal cali configuration i wouldnt worry.anways if the leo doesnt no his laws he`s still going to confiscate it together or not.

hoffmang
01-01-2007, 3:40 PM
If the upper isn't attached to the lower, their still going to take it. However, If you get hung up and decide to forfeit the lower, you still have a claim to the upper as your property and they will not have a law to rely on to keep it.

-Gene

gn3hz3ku1*
01-01-2007, 3:55 PM
that would not be a bad idea. since most of the cost is attached to the upper

trouble
01-01-2007, 6:09 PM
Technically correct, but there's no way your average cop is not going to take the gun looking part (you know, the one with the barrel) as evidence or just to keep everything together. It may make it easier to get it returned to you, but again I would think the prosecutor would want to keep everything all together just in case, especially if it's part of an active investigation or case.

Of course, you are in fact in the right... not that that's gonna matter :)

E Pluribus Unum
01-01-2007, 7:30 PM
Technically correct, but there's no way your average cop is not going to take the gun looking part (you know, the one with the barrel) as evidence or just to keep everything together. It may make it easier to get it returned to you, but again I would think the prosecutor would want to keep everything all together just in case, especially if it's part of an active investigation or case.

Of course, you are in fact in the right... not that that's gonna matter :)

It will not matter in the short term, but in the long term it will. They will cease it at the time but you will get it back later. According to the LAW the only thing that is the firearm is the lower. Your chances of getting the seperated upper back are exponentially greater than if they are attached at the time of siezure.

The upper will be just like any other non-gun property confiscated at the time. They can hold the upper as evidense but as soon as it is adjudicated and the lower is ordered destroyed they would have to return the upper assuming you had an attorney to file the appropriate paperwork.

Heavy_Grinder
01-01-2007, 8:12 PM
Who honestly rides around with their cali legal AR in pieces because they're afraid some joe bob ignorant cop will confiscate their build???

As long as you have the proper documentation (Purchase of sale, receipts, etc. dros paperwork) for everything in your trunk and you can prove that you are either coming from or to a shooting range, then youre fine in my opinion.

At the lax indoor range in socal, the off duty cops that frequent that establishment couldnt care less.

In the event that you do get pulled over, they would need justifiable cause in searching your vehicle anyways. To stretch it further. If they do find just cause in a vehicle search. They see your oll build with full paperwork, decide to confiscate it, arrest you for having a so called assault weapon, then just do what Emil Matasareanu and his buddy did when they got their weapons confiscated prior to the NH shootout.....get a court order for your weapon(s) back. Bobs your uncle!

Prc329
01-01-2007, 9:29 PM
I've been pulled over with a rifle in my back seat (I have a truck). The asked if he could check to see if the bag was locked then continued to right me ticket for illegal u-turn. I say as long as you are transporting them properly you should not have a problem.

TonyNorCal
01-01-2007, 9:39 PM
I agree with the posters above. If, in the highly unlikely event you end up in a situation where a cop is going to effect an arrest and/or confiscate the OLL (due to his assuming it's illegal) having it separated won't matter much.

The legal criteria for transporting a long gun is...

1.) Not loaded. Period.

It doesn't matter if the gun is in view or under clothing. It doesn't matter if the gun is in the trunk or in a case. The mags can be loaded (but I wouldn't have them laying right near the gun).

That said, sometimes there's legal and practical. In this case it seems that being a little more pragmatic is good preventative medicine for avoiding a negative encounter with law enforcement. Obviously having a long gun (particularly an AR/AK type) laying on the seat next to you is just begging for trouble. Some citizen might see it and call the cops resulting in you getting ordered out an gun point, etc.

Personally I think it's best to use a locked case if you don't have a trunk. And if you have a trunk it goes in there.

hoffmang
01-01-2007, 9:43 PM
Everyone on this thread seems to be fixated on the arrest. EPU and I are talking about the post adjudication situation.

If you were cheating and your lower was mis configured but separate from your upper, you have a post conviction/infraction property right to get the upper back as its not the firearm. Also, even CA DOJ admits in its internal memorandum that its not sure that a lower receiver without an upper attached can be a firearm regulated by SB-23. If you're worried, having that uncertainty on your side is a good thing.

-Gene

E Pluribus Unum
01-01-2007, 10:02 PM
Everyone on this thread seems to be fixated on the arrest. EPU and I are talking about the post adjudication situation.

If you were cheating and your lower was mis configured but separate from your upper, you have a post conviction/infraction property right to get the upper back as its not the firearm. Also, even CA DOJ admits in its internal memorandum that its not sure that a lower receiver without an upper attached can be a firearm regulated by SB-23. If you're worried, having that uncertainty on your side is a good thing.

-Gene

Thats the point. People have posted paranoia posts about the government using this new law to persuade people to give up the rifle. Even if your OLL is legally configured they can still take it to trial. If you have a $2000 OLL at stake it would weigh heavily on your choice to fight. Just because something is legal doesn't mean you wont find yourself in court over it especially in the begining. If all you have is a $200 lower to worry about and you will definitely get the $1500-$1800 upper back you might just take the infraction and buy another lower.

This is more for the paranoid and for those that don't plan on playing it safe.

Fate
01-01-2007, 11:01 PM
What makes you think your rifle will stay in 2 pieces once it goes into police custody?

Click, clack. 2 pins, whack
The rifle's now, all put back
Sorry bro, your rifle o' black
It's gone. T'ain't comin' back...

hoffmang
01-01-2007, 11:03 PM
Most LEOs are truthful and honest on their police reports about the state of the evidence. If they aren't it opens them up to perjury charges and that risk isn't usually worth just stating the facts.

-Gene

Fate
01-01-2007, 11:05 PM
Most (not all), huh?

I suppose an AW bust does nothing for the career path.

medic707
01-01-2007, 11:23 PM
.....As long as you have the proper documentation (Purchase of sale, receipts, etc. dros paperwork) for everything in your trunk and you can prove that you are either coming from or to a shooting range, then youre fine in my opinion. ....


dont mean to hijack the thread but...

Question for you guys that know alot more than me

All my paper work that proves that i own my OLL e.g. (dros, store receipt, ect..) was destroyed in a minor fire. All i have is a credit card statement that shows a amount at SJGE. So what could be a course of action for me? Do i need to worry about it? Is there anything i could do if said paper work is essential?
I posted a thread about it awhile back and everyone that replied said not to worry about it.
Thank you

hoffmang
01-01-2007, 11:24 PM
The easiest thing to do would be to return to SJGE and ask them if they could copy your 4473's for you. Buy something else while you're there to be nice :D

-Gene

medic707
01-01-2007, 11:28 PM
How hard is it to find? It was back in march, and i dont want to be a pain in the @$$.

hoffmang
01-01-2007, 11:35 PM
Dunno how well organized they are. Xeno or M24armorer would know.

-Gene

E Pluribus Unum
01-01-2007, 11:44 PM
How hard is it to find? It was back in march, and i dont want to be a pain in the @$$.

DOJ regularly does it. If they do ANY private party transfer stuff or if a stolen firearm is ever recovered they go back to the gun shop and ask for it. If you are buying something they probably wont have a problem.

I am placing you under citizen's arrest for stealing my thread! ;)

medic707
01-01-2007, 11:53 PM
do you know if i would be required to have that paper work for the oll? I know it would be something great to have handy and if the worst case happends (i get arrested for my legal rifle), and i need to prove ownership to get my rifle back. I know for my hunting rifles i dont carry any proof i own it ... but i also understand the oll's are a hot bed issue and alot of people arnt very informed including police
thanks gene for the quick replies and all the work you guys have done on this stuff. Ill give SJGE a call next 4 day i get

hoffmang
01-01-2007, 11:54 PM
You would only need proof if your rifle were seized. You'd have plenty of time to swing by SJGE and either get a copy of your 4473 or a photocopy of their log book of your entry.

Now, lets stop stealing EPU's thread :D

-Gene

E Pluribus Unum
01-01-2007, 11:59 PM
P.S.
One does not have to show proof of ownership to get long guns back. That only applies to HANDGUNS.

metalhead357
01-02-2007, 4:57 AM
I've been pulled over with a rifle in my back seat (I have a truck). The asked if he could check to see if the bag was locked then continued to right me ticket for illegal u-turn. I say as long as you are transporting them properly you should not have a problem.

:confused: NON AW long guns do NOT have to be locked...............

Fate
01-02-2007, 7:54 AM
:confused: NON AW long guns do NOT have to be locked...............
+1. Prc329, you consented away your rights when you agreed to his "request." Once he's in, he can search MORE than just if the rifle bag is locked (and it doesn't need to be locked if it's not a registered AW).

The proper response would have been, "I'm sorry no. Unless you can articulate a specific probable cause for you to search my private property, I will have to decline your request."

Prc329
01-02-2007, 8:01 AM
Probably, but I was late, and didn't have anything to hide. I saw no harm in the gesture. The cop was being cool and all as well. If he was being a dick it would have been different. Oh and I always lock everything up when I transport my guns. I feel better that way. I know a criminal wanting my bag can get into it, but I figure it will give him a little bit more of a deterrent to move on to the next car.

Nylo
01-03-2007, 6:14 PM
Its too bad there are not any Lawyers on this board to fine tune some of these issues.

grammaton76
01-03-2007, 6:36 PM
Its too bad there are not any Lawyers on this board to fine tune some of these issues.

There are, but they don't like to advertise because otherwise, they'll get buried with questions, and they also don't like being armchair-quarterbacked by some of us. :)

Too bad we don't have an anonymous-response "ask a lawyer" column or something... so they don't get buried when responding.

hoffmang
01-03-2007, 7:25 PM
I don't think there is a quality gun lawyer in California who isn't on this board. However, they wisely lurk for the reason gramma mentions and others.

Usually one of us can get a clarification or answer and share it here when appropriate.

-Gene