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View Full Version : LUCC in a CamelBak


MountainMike
07-09-2011, 11:35 AM
Does this constitute a locked container? I ask because the zipper "leaver" is 550 cord and not the standard metal.
http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z265/s3xar2/IMGP0810.jpg

scarville
07-09-2011, 11:46 AM
I'd have to say, "no," on that one. I think a reasonably intelligent ten-year-old (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=1711983&postcount=22) could defeat it pretty easily.

Briancnelson
07-09-2011, 12:54 PM
If you don't have to defeat the actual lock or zipper to get it open I'd say don't do it. Looks like I could just about stretch it wide enough to get the gun without damaging anything.

Charlie50
07-09-2011, 1:05 PM
I'd say that is likely a fail due to ease of opening/ forcing open while locked, possibility of manipulating while in the bag... that just sounds bad :)

Me I like a slam dunk locked container... BTW my laptop case is low key and secure....

jaymz
07-09-2011, 3:08 PM
Have any of you tried to open an approved cable lock without the key? A locked container is all that is required. He has a locked container. He's good to the letter of the law.

Liberty1
07-09-2011, 3:48 PM
'Secure' is also part of the concealed exemption law and is not defined there or in case law yet. The default definition is often then found in the dictionary.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/_/dict.aspx?word=secure

CitaDeL
07-09-2011, 4:03 PM
I would think it would need to be more like this- but Im not an attorney and I am not capable of despensing reliable legal advice.

scarville
07-09-2011, 4:14 PM
'Secure' is also part of the concealed exemption law and is not defined there or in case law yet. The default definition is often then found in the dictionary.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/_/dict.aspx?word=secure
Also it says fully enclosed which is not defined in the code or case law either. If the zipper can be manipulated enough that a cop could reach in and touch the gun with just one finger who really thinks the case would considered compliant?

If it were me carrying a gun in a backpack, I would try to put it in a separate locked case (like the NV-300) and put that case in the backpack.

jaymz
07-09-2011, 4:26 PM
'Secure' is also part of the concealed exemption law and is not defined there or in case law yet. The default definition is often then found in the dictionary.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/_/dict.aspx?word=secure

I agree, but..............the reason I brought up the DOJ approved cable locks that we all hate to buy, is that the Camelpack in the op's post is likely more secure than that.

choprzrul
07-09-2011, 5:51 PM
As always, ask yourself if you want to become the test case to find out exactly what is approved? That answer must be balanced with how much risk you are willing to accept. Low Risk = not with that setup unless you are actively seeking test case status.

.

Liberty1
07-09-2011, 6:05 PM
I agree, but..............the reason I brought up the DOJ approved cable locks that we all hate to buy, is that the Camelpack in the op's post is likely more secure than that.

Yes, but cable locks are no part of the concealed transport exemption and any argument over 'secure' will likely be left up to a jury.

Anchors
07-09-2011, 6:06 PM
Personally, I would stick with hard-sided cases just to be safe.

Briancnelson
07-09-2011, 6:21 PM
I've carried guns in range bags with a lock through the zippers before. But you couldn't reach or touch the gun inside without either breaking the lock, which required non-trivial strength, or the zipper, which in that case also required non-trivial strength.

The problem here is, I would bet a cop will be all over any case where you can basically stretch the zipper pulls apart and slip the gun out.

It's just not secure even under a broad, lax definition.

Get a microvault, lock it, and put THAT inside the bag, gtg.

QQQ
07-09-2011, 7:01 PM
I may or may not have LUCC'd with a CamelBak before. If I did, I *would* have sealed the zippers string things shut by melting them together close to the zipper itself, such that if a lock went through it, it would *have been* impossible to actually touch the firearm inside.

CitaDeL
07-09-2011, 7:05 PM
I've carried guns in range bags with a lock through the zippers before. But you couldn't reach or touch the gun inside without either breaking the lock, which required non-trivial strength, or the zipper, which in that case also required non-trivial strength.

The problem here is, I would bet a cop will be all over any case where you can basically stretch the zipper pulls apart and slip the gun out.
It's just not secure even under a broad, lax definition.

Get a microvault, lock it, and put THAT inside the bag, gtg.

I guess someone on this thread will find out, firsthand.

MountainMike
07-09-2011, 10:13 PM
Also it says fully enclosed which is not defined in the code or case law either. If the zipper can be manipulated enough that a cop could reach in and touch the gun with just one finger who really thinks the case would considered compliant?

If it were me carrying a gun in a backpack, I would try to put it in a separate locked case (like the NV-300) and put that case in the backpack.
Thank you all for your input. From what I've gathered the material of the lever is irrelevant. What I believe will work is shortening the cord enough to prevent a gap in the zipper large enough to allow a finger to enter the compartment and securing the plastic clasp at the end of the cord to prevent pulling it apart... I'm thinking superglue.

Interfan
07-10-2011, 11:17 AM
Go to Home Depot and get some thin steel cable and assemble steel cable pull loops with swaged ends to replace to 550 cord. That would make it lockable and more secure. I am no authority on it, but that should pass any "reasonable" anti-tamper efforts as it would require bolt cutters to defeat the steel cables. I did this with a range bag and have had some positive comments from LEOs that I shoot with.

Briancnelson
07-10-2011, 2:06 PM
Go to Home Depot and get some thin steel cable and assemble steel cable pull loops with swaged ends to replace to 550 cord. That would make it lockable and more secure. I am no authority on it, but that should pass any "reasonable" anti-tamper efforts as it would require bolt cutters to defeat the steel cables. I did this with a range bag and have had some positive comments from LEOs that I shoot with.

I would think that would solve the problem nicely. In fact I may do that on my range bag, as it would be even more secure that way.

Firemark
07-10-2011, 2:23 PM
delete

Flopper
07-10-2011, 2:28 PM
I'd have to say, "no," on that one. I think a reasonably intelligent ten-year-old (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=1711983&postcount=22) could defeat it pretty easily.

The "ten-year old" definition states

any container which can be opened, entered or otherwise defeated by an average ten year old boy, without the key or the combination, and without cutting or smashing tools, is too weak to be even laughably called "secure".

I say good luck to any 10 year old or even full grown man that can defeat 550 cord without tools.

scarville
07-10-2011, 2:40 PM
The "ten-year old" definition states

any container which can be opened, entered or otherwise defeated by an average ten year old boy, without the key or the combination, and without cutting or smashing tools, is too weak to be even laughably called "secure".

I say good luck to any 10 year old or even full grown man that can defeat 550 cord without tools.
The pulls pictured will let the zipper be opened enough to let one or two finger enter the case. Anyone who thinks that will pass the fully enclosed requirement is welcome to go ahead and become a test case.

jaymz
07-10-2011, 7:42 PM
If you can't pull the gun, or any portion thereof, out, the firearm is "fully enclosed" by the container.

$P-Ritch$
07-10-2011, 8:20 PM
Go to walmart and get a pair of those tiny brinks luggage locks. They are small enough to fit through the eyelets of the metal part of the zipper. Then you just link them together and there will never be enought of a gap between the zippers to get even a finger through. That is how I carry my gun when I am riding my bike and it works quite well. As others have stated, as long as it is locked you are in compliance. There is no minimum threshhold for level of security afforded by the container.

$P-Ritch$
07-10-2011, 8:27 PM
I say good luck to any 10 year old or even full grown man that can defeat 550 cord without tools.

+1, it's called 550 cord due to it being 550 lb test. I would like to see a ten year old pull it apart and then keep my distance from the freakishly strong child. Also, if you tie a proper knot with 550 there is no way you can untie with your bare hands you need a knife or needle or something and patience to work the knot out.

Firemark
07-11-2011, 11:08 AM
The "ten-year old" definition states

any container which can be opened, entered or otherwise defeated by an average ten year old boy, without the key or the combination, and without cutting or smashing tools, is too weak to be even laughably called "secure".

I say good luck to any 10 year old or even full grown man that can defeat 550 cord without tools.

Curious where is this 10 year old definition written?? source please?

Flopper
07-11-2011, 11:18 AM
Curious where is this 10 year old definition written?? source please?

There's links to it in post #2 and post #20.

It's NOT a legal definition, but was proposed by Librarian as a reasonable test of what should pass the state's legal requirement for a locked container in regard to firearms.

hammerhands32
07-11-2011, 11:19 AM
I've heard of a story where someone left the keys to a factory Magnum Research case at home on a trip to the range. That person opened the plastic clips and stretched the sides so the Baby eagle could fall out. If LE wants to arrest you, they are going to arrest you. Being polite is probably part of making sure LE see the case as secure.

Decoligny
07-11-2011, 11:19 AM
Curious where is this 10 year old definition written?? source please?

The "10 year old" rule is simply a sanity check to help people understand that what one person thinks is "secure" isn't necessarily "secure".

It is a rule of thumb to be used as a guideline. If a 10 year old CAN actually get into it without any tools, it sure as hell is NOT a secure container.

hammerhands32
07-11-2011, 11:21 AM
Go to Home Depot and get some thin steel cable and assemble steel cable pull loops with swaged ends to replace to 550 cord. That would make it lockable and more secure. I am no authority on it, but that should pass any "reasonable" anti-tamper efforts as it would require bolt cutters to defeat the steel cables. I did this with a range bag and have had some positive comments from LEOs that I shoot with.

Great idea right here folks

tba02
07-11-2011, 11:38 AM
I just run small key ring circles through the metal zipper hole.

scarville
07-11-2011, 12:45 PM
I just run small key ring circles through the metal zipper hole.
That's a good idea. :thumbsup:

CitaDeL
07-11-2011, 12:53 PM
I just run small key ring circles through the metal zipper hole.

Are the key rings welded so that they cannot be removed without tools?

If they arent, Id say that it wasnt actually locked or secure.

Glock22Fan
07-11-2011, 12:58 PM
Are the key rings welded so that they cannot be removed without tools?

If they arent, Id say that it wasnt actually locked or secure.

Superglue!

WDE91
07-11-2011, 6:37 PM
I think the idea of getting 2 small luggage locks and locking them together is the cheapest and easiest solution

MountainMike
07-11-2011, 8:20 PM
In modifying my CamelBak to serve as a locked container I discovered a problem I was not expecting. I used another bag for ease of filming.
I9KGgcnRjb0
As it stands I am unsure as to if I want to heavily modify the CamelBak or just not use it in this fashion.

Librarian
07-11-2011, 9:21 PM
In modifying my CamelBak to serve as a locked container I discovered a problem I was not expecting. I used another bag for ease of filming.

As it stands I am unsure as to if I want to heavily modify the CamelBak or just not use it in this fashion.

Yes, that's a problem.

Perhaps folks who manufacture gun cases have already thought of such things and designed their products to accommodate.

I'm all for frugality; re-purposing something one already owns makes financial sense, sometimes.

Doesn't look like this is one of those happy moments.

$P-Ritch$
07-11-2011, 11:09 PM
I ask myself why are there threads like these? I see by your screen name you must love the outdoors, ride mountain bikes etc. If you do all that locking crap etc I guess go for it, if you plan on camping somewhere but above all. If you want something to defend your life on, please just go buy a 6"+ ka bar or some sort of good quality knife and strap that sucker on your left or right camel bak shoulder strap. A locked up gun will just get you tired and killed. Be practical, also most knives now come with well made sheaths.

I think most threads like these generally address means of transportation for those of us that do not have an enclosed car trunk to lock the firearm in. That could be anyone with a hatchback, truck, motorcycle, bicycle, or even walking to or from a gun store/range/etc.

CitaDeL
07-12-2011, 6:43 AM
I ask myself why are there threads like these? I see by your screen name you must love the outdoors, ride mountain bikes etc. If you do all that locking crap etc I guess go for it, if you plan on camping somewhere but above all. If you want something to defend your life on, please just go buy a 6"+ ka bar or some sort of good quality knife and strap that sucker on your left or right camel bak shoulder strap. A locked up gun will just get you tired and killed. Be practical, also most knives now come with well made sheaths.

Have you ever stabbed a mountain lion or a bear? And I dont think that you can create enough distance with a 6" blade.

Im not sure how effective a knife would be.

Then as was stated, this is about mitigating transportation issues- getting from 'A' to 'B' without accidentally violating a law that draws imaginary lines that no one can point to with any certainty that has significant consequences if you do cross that imaginary line.

Anonymous Coward
07-12-2011, 7:38 AM
I ask myself why are there threads like these? I see by your screen name you must love the outdoors, ride mountain bikes etc. If you do all that locking crap etc I guess go for it, if you plan on camping somewhere but above all. If you want something to defend your life on, please just go buy a 6"+ ka bar or some sort of good quality knife and strap that sucker on your left or right camel bak shoulder strap. A locked up gun will just get you tired and killed. Be practical, also most knives now come with well made sheaths.

And that is a felony right there. A fixed blade knife in a sheath needs to be carried openly suspended from the belt - shoulder strap is a no go. It doesn't make any sense, but that's what the law says. A folding knife would be OK (depending on local and park laws).

Edited to add:
How do you actually carry an unconcealed fixed blade that does NOT use the 12020.25.c exception? Carry it in a clear sheath? Attach it in some other way to your body or gear?

Glock22Fan
07-12-2011, 8:14 AM
And that is a felony right there. A fixed blade knife in a sheath needs to be carried openly suspended from the belt - shoulder strap is a no go. It doesn't make any sense, but that's what the law says. A folding knife would be OK (depending on local and park laws).

Edited to add:
How do you actually carry an unconcealed fixed blade that does NOT use the 12020.25.c exception? Carry it in a clear sheath? Attach it in some other way to your body or gear?

Incorrect. The sheath may be mounted anywhere it is openly visible, such as on a belt. The belt carry is not mandatory, it is an example.

And there is a test case for that piece of law. Someone in period costume had so much stuff on his belt that he strapped his knife to his leg. The D.A. prosecuted him, and he was acquitted. It's on Jim March's Californian Knife Laws (http://www.ninehundred.net/~equalccw/knifelaw.html)page.

scarville
07-12-2011, 9:28 AM
In modifying my CamelBak to serve as a locked container I discovered a problem I was not expecting. I used another bag for ease of filming.
What you filmed is a phenomenum some of us engineering geeks are familiar with. It is one of the manifold problems. Thanks for posting it and, hopefully, a few people will learn from it.

yelohamr
07-12-2011, 11:49 AM
This what I use, since I quit going to Starbucks.
http://reviews.cabelas.com/8815/227754/bulldog-fanny-pack-conceal-carry-holster-reviews/reviews.htm

It will hold my S&W .40 and 5 mags. If no CCW, it can be locked. With a CCW, there is a quick release to pull and it opens up.

Flopper
07-12-2011, 2:59 PM
If you want something to defend your life on, please just go buy a 6"+ ka bar or some sort of good quality knife and strap that sucker on your left or right camel bak shoulder strap. A locked up gun will just get you tired and killed. Be practical, also most knives now come with well made sheaths.

Have you ever stabbed a mountain lion or a bear? And I dont think that you can create enough distance with a 6" blade.

Im not sure how effective a knife would be.

Knives are notoriously problematic at stopping a threat for many reasons, especially if you're untrained in their use. Suggesting their use against a bear or mountain lion is laughable at best (unless maybe if you're a super hero armed with a sword).

If a gun is not an option, pepper spray (or bear spray) or a Taser would be MUCH better solutions than a piddly little 6" knife.

MountainMike
07-12-2011, 7:32 PM
I think most threads like these generally address means of transportation for those of us that do not have an enclosed car trunk to lock the firearm in. That could be anyone with a hatchback, truck, motorcycle, bicycle, or even walking to or from a gun store/range/etc.

Precisely. The original idea was to exploit the convenience of using a compartment in a small and versatile backpack for not only bicycle excursions into the great outdoors but also on my road bike around and between towns. My bicycles have taken me all over the state and while LUCC many not be ideal against an emanate threat, it is still my only recourse.

Again, right on the money... my car does not have a trunk which qualifies as a locked container. Naturally I have a pistol case but it is bulky and cumbersome to carry in any concealable fashion.

Anonymous Coward
07-12-2011, 9:04 PM
Incorrect. The sheath may be mounted anywhere it is openly visible, such as on a belt. The belt carry is not mandatory, it is an example.

And there is a test case for that piece of law. Someone in period costume had so much stuff on his belt that he strapped his knife to his leg. The D.A. prosecuted him, and he was acquitted. It's on Jim March's Californian Knife Laws (http://www.ninehundred.net/~equalccw/knifelaw.html)page.

Right, there's a case mentioned on Jim March's web site. I'd like to see that case. 25(d) is pretty specific about the suspension from the waist and it does not use the language that is used when examples are listed. It could be that the guy just got lucky with a jury. I would not do this wager with a felony dangling over my head..

$P-Ritch$
07-13-2011, 7:06 AM
Precisely. The original idea was to exploit the convenience of using a compartment in a small and versatile backpack for not only bicycle excursions into the great outdoors but also on my road bike around and between towns. My bicycles have taken me all over the state and while LUCC many not be ideal against an emanate threat, it is still my only recourse.

Again, right on the money... my car does not have a trunk which qualifies as a locked container. Naturally I have a pistol case but it is bulky and cumbersome to carry in any concealable fashion.

Sounds like we're in the same boat. I ride my road bike to USPSA and IDPA matches every month carrying my pistol in my camelback H.A.W.G. At the moment, I use a pelican 1200 case padlocked and stuffed into the pack, but this takes up way too much room. I can just barely fit the gun, holster, belt, mags, ammo, ears, and barely get the zipper shut. Now I think I may run one of those cable loops through a molle strap and lock both zippers to the loop with luggage locks.

Also, I drive a subaru wagon (no trunk) and nothing IMHO is more secure than a pelican case aside from an actual safe. So, it just gets tossed in the back with a couple heavy duty padlocks and I'm done with it.

Librarian
07-13-2011, 12:28 PM
Right, there's a case mentioned on Jim March's web site. I'd like to see that case. 25(d) is pretty specific about the suspension from the waist and it does not use the language that is used when examples are listed. It could be that the guy just got lucky with a jury. I would not do this wager with a felony dangling over my head..

Seems not to have been up to an appeals court, so unlikely to be available.

The CalCrim jury instructions say the guiding cases are Substantial Concealment.
People v. Wharton (1992) 5 Cal.App.4th 72, 75 [6 Cal.Rptr.2d 673];
People v. Fuentes (1976) 64 Cal.App.3d 953, 955 [134 Cal.Rptr. 885].

luckystrike
07-14-2011, 1:28 AM
or even walking to or from a gun store/range/etc.

oh man that reminds me of all the hoopla that was started that LUCC only applies when a vehicle is involved in your travels and so many people were convinced that it was "illegal ccw" to LUCC on foot not involving a car..........