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ipser
07-08-2011, 2:15 PM
What is the legal theory behind selling stripped lowers versus complete lowers? Is it the magazine release or something more? What is the legal distinction here that vendors are relying upon?

(While completing a stripped lower is not that difficult, it's certainly more than most gun buyers are willing to do. When I was at the range recently I was explaining to an ex-marine about CA AW laws and the possibility of building an AR, which he wanted. He was interested but offput by the work required.)

FastFinger
07-08-2011, 2:24 PM
For one thing as soon as a grip is added the lower can be classified as an "assault weapon" unless it is so registered or it has a bullet button.

dfletcher
07-08-2011, 2:43 PM
For one thing as soon as a grip is added the lower can be classified as an "assault weapon" unless it is so registered or it has a bullet button.

A completely assembled lower with a standard AR mag release (but no upper attached) isn't an AW, it can be configured with a rimfire upper and that's fine. I suppose it could be mistakenly asserted by LE to be an AW.

I think the main reason for the two is simply cost. I won't buy an assembled lower because the stock, the trigger and itspins, trigger guard and such will all be tossed.

stix213
07-08-2011, 2:46 PM
For one thing as soon as a grip is added the lower can be classified as an "assault weapon" unless it is so registered or it has a bullet button.

This should not be accurate since without an upper it is not a "center fire semi-automatic" firearm. The owner can just as easily install a rimfire upper or one that is not semi-automatic.

ipser
07-08-2011, 2:49 PM
For one thing as soon as a grip is added the lower can be classified as an "assault weapon" unless it is so registered or it has a bullet button.

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that lowers sold with the pistol grip would have a bullet button.

A completely assembled lower with a standard AR mag release (but no upper attached) isn't an AW, it can be configured with a rimfire upper and that's fine. I suppose it could be mistakenly asserted by LE to be an AW.

I think the main reason for the two is simply cost. I won't buy an assembled lower because the stock, the trigger and itspins, trigger guard and such will all be tossed.

It certainly makes more sense for those interested in customization to buy a stripped lower. Is it simply the case that the market up to now has consisted mainly of those interested in customization? (I have seen a few complete ARs on gun shelves but don't recall ever seeing a complete lower for sale.)

Joe
07-08-2011, 2:53 PM
As other have posted above me, a bullet button is NOT required until a centerfire upper is attached. A complete lower can be sold just as readily as a stripped lower.

ipser
07-08-2011, 3:00 PM
As other have posted above me, a bullet button is NOT required until a centerfire upper is attached. A complete lower can be sold just as readily as a stripped lower.

So are they being sold as such? Where would I direct someone interested in an AR who doesn't want to build the lower? (Uppers are easily purchased online.) As I mentioned, I haven't seen any so far.

Reductio
07-08-2011, 3:02 PM
As other have posted above me, a bullet button is NOT required until a centerfire upper is attached. A complete lower can be sold just as readily as a stripped lower.

*Centerfire semi-automatic upper

Reductio
07-08-2011, 3:03 PM
So are they being sold as such? Where would I direct someone interested in an AR who doesn't want to build the lower? (Uppers are easily purchased online.) As I mentioned, I haven't seen any so far.

Riflegear has some here (http://www.riflegear.com/c-93-complete-lower-receivers.aspx).... to be honest though, I'd just build it, a drunk monkey could figure it out...

Joe
07-08-2011, 3:06 PM
So are they being sold as such? Where would I direct someone interested in an AR who doesn't want to build the lower? (Uppers are easily purchased online.) As I mentioned, I haven't seen any so far.

There are many gun stores that sell complete lowers.

You should encourage them to do the assembly though. Its fun and easy as hell. Can you butter toast? Then you can assemble an AR lower.

ipser
07-08-2011, 3:09 PM
Riflegear has some here (http://www.riflegear.com/c-93-complete-lower-receivers.aspx).... to be honest though, I'd just build it, a drunk monkey could figure it out...

Thanks. I see this is a CA company so presumably there will be no issues. I know what you mean but obviously some people would rather not. As ARs move from hobby to mainstream in CA I expect this is going to be more important.

ipser
07-08-2011, 3:10 PM
There are many gun stores that sell complete lowers.
Ok, I just hadn't seen any.

You should encourage them to do the assembly though. Its fun and easy as hell. Can you butter toast? Then you can assemble an AR lower.
IIRC, there are some issues with avoding scratching the finish. But, yeah.

Joe
07-08-2011, 3:13 PM
If you buy it from them it will be no problem. If you have it sent to another FFL make sure the other FFL is ok with accepting a complete lower with no BB attached. It IS legal, but that doesn't mean the receiving gunshop will be aware of the laws.

Joe
07-08-2011, 3:16 PM
Perfect example of the situation I described above:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=427403&highlight=complete

ipser
07-08-2011, 3:21 PM
Perfect example of the situation I described above:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=427403&highlight=complete

Sad.

Thanks everyone for your assistance.

ilkhan
07-08-2011, 3:24 PM
*Centerfire semi-automatic upper
Excepting the rare bolt action monstrosity, semi-auto/full-auto is determined by the lower.

Reductio
07-08-2011, 4:27 PM
Excepting the rare bolt action monstrosity, semi-auto/full-auto is determined by the lower.

Full-auto is obviously off-limits in CA. The point I was making is that bolt action center-fire AR-15 uppers do NOT require a bullet button, nor a magazine limit. That includes a standard upper with the gas tube removed.

bohoki
07-08-2011, 4:48 PM
i bought a stripped one because when i bought the complete lower along with a 50 upper i had lots of parts left

i removed/replaced the following parts and had these in a baggie

recoil spring
buffer
buffer detent and spring
disconnector
disconnector spring
bolt lock
bolt lock pin,spring and detent
takedown pins
takedown detents and springs
hammer
mag catch button and spring(dont need no magazine on a dedicated 50)
safety safety spring
grip
a2 stock from when i turned my raw into a retro model

so i had an extra during ban upper with my raw and said what the heck and put together an oll

just needed a buffer tube and trigger
and used the exile machine blem grip to be in compliance

12voltguy
07-08-2011, 5:59 PM
Full-auto is obviously off-limits in CA. The point I was making is that bolt action center-fire AR-15 uppers do NOT require a bullet button, nor a magazine limit. That includes a standard upper with the gas tube removed.

featureless don't need one either, got my 20-30rd mags for that type
+ my ar57 uses a different bb:D

FastFinger
07-08-2011, 7:01 PM
Thanks for pointing out my FUD, I stand corrected, and will do so in the corner for 30 minutes - that oughtta teach me!

After the earlier beating I'm a bit gun shy to post this, but... There's also at least one vendor (Palmetto State Armory) that if you buy a lower from them, and it's stripped, it will save you on taxes. They charge federal excise tax on an order with a lower with other parts, but not on an order that only stripped only.

Due to Federal law, if you order an AR15 lower and AR15 parts, we will have to add an additional 11% Federal Excise Tax to the purchase price of the AR15 lower and AR15 parts. This amount will not be reflected in your shopping cart or on your invoice, but will be added when your order is processed.