PDA

View Full Version : Happy 2007! Non-SKS Simonov rifles w/detachable mags are legal!


bwiese
01-01-2007, 3:06 AM
Happy New Year!

Luis Tolley, eat your heart out. Looks like you'll have to borrow some more Project Concern International time to worry about this. (I thought PCI was a humanitarian organization that stayed out of politics - and issues like gun control.)

Some of you here may have heard occasional hints about SKS-related issues, and then quiet. You might also have heard of my description of such rifles as "Simonov-pattern" rifles.

The reason is that many Simonov rifles which look like SKSes are indeed not SKSes; the "SKS" term for these is mere colloquial usage - much like we call a Stag or a CMMG an "AR". These Simonov rifles have other proper descriptions - such as the Zastava M59/66 ("Yugo SKS"), etc.

Note that one of the original Roberti-Roos AWCA banned rifles was "SKS with detachable magazine".

We kept things quiet until AB2728 kicked in today, so that non-SKS Simonov rifles like the Yugos and Albanians could be 'protected species'. Excess attention could have lead to their getting banned via a DOJ 12276.5PC add-on petition to a superior court with a 'tame' judge. This would then ban these useful, cost-effective rifles from generations of future California
shooters.

If you have a non-SKS Simonov rifle, it does not violate CA law to have a detachable magazine.
Such rifles are simply not named and not banned; "SKS" term cannot be treated as a "series".

Just like the case of Imbel FAL receivers being legal but FN-FALs being banned, similar concepts apply to Simonov-family variants. Note that this is not a Harrott issue; Harrott really just puts AR & AK flavors back to the same listing standard as other Roberti-Roos guns.

Right now, the Yugo Zastava M59 & M59/66, the Albanian Umgramsh "July 10th" rifle, the Romanian "Model 56", and the East German Karabiner S cannot legally be considered a Roberti-Roos "SKS" rifles - and can have detachable magazines. I am unclear on Chinese Simonov rifle variants and "SKS-D" issues - some may and some may not be "SKS" rifles, there may be some handwaving on 'Type 56' since there are Simonov and AK rifles of this flavor (does the naming under AK series accidentally cover both?). Russian SKS rifles are the true exemplar SKS and thus are ineligible to have detachable magazines in California. Also, anything that has "SKS" marked on it should be avoided (for DM modification) for legal safety - including importer's marks.

10rd 'duckbill' magazines are available from various sources.

Rifletech has a conversion to use their non-duckbill magazines.

It appears that 922(r) compliance parts may be required on these conversions as some/all SKSes with detachable magazines were banned from importation in early 90s (separate from Federal AWB). So for safety's sake you'll have to play the 10-or-less game for BATF happiness. Perhaps things have relaxed w/922(r) issues on SKS but I am not sure. Just because you see it on a shelf or at the range doesn't mean it's legal.[/u] I will be looking into 922(r) issues on Simonovs; there may (or may not) be different treatment for C&R guns than for non-C&R guns. A US mag, US stock and a couple of other small parts should get you to "10 or less" key foreign parts.

[I would appreciate a Calguns "SKS historian" here with substantive knowledge of Simonov flavors to further break down manufacturer/models on these. Special attention should be paid to Chinese stuff. I had some material, I believe from MaxQ awhile back, but I lost it in my PM box.]

Remember to never have a FIXED magazine of greater than 10rds in your Simonov-pattern rifle, as that triggers the alternate generic definition of assault weapon regardless of what kind of rifle it is (including Mini14, M1A, etc.)

There may be some handwaving between regulatory code echo (11CCR5495) of Roberti-Roos list and the actual Roberti-Roos statutory list. The regulatory code (as discussed in another thread) seems to restrict things to "Norinco SKS with detachable mag" but I think care should be used and that ANY rifle truly called an SKS should not have a detachable magazine.

Rumpled
01-01-2007, 3:09 AM
Damn. I just took my contacts out. but glad to see I was at least part right.
I;ll read it later.

69Mach1
01-01-2007, 3:11 AM
I knew this was coming! Is there an adapter or a way to modify the SKS to accept reg. AK magazines? Thanks for posting Bill.

Matt C
01-01-2007, 3:15 AM
Interesting. Would this mod take a C&R gun out of C&R status?

blacklisted
01-01-2007, 3:19 AM
I'd like to point out another curiosity.

If you look up Title 11, Section 5495 here (http://www.calregs.com/), you will see that it specifically lists "Norinco SKS w/ detachable magazine". How did DoJ have the authority to change what the legislation originally banned (SKS with detachable magazine) which would have included the Russian model(s) as well?

bwiese
01-01-2007, 3:22 AM
It's gonna take me a few days to dig thru 922(r) stuff. Also there are some SKSes that are not C&R and some that are C&R, and those could be separate issues.

For now, don't just drop a detach mag into your non-SKS Simonov rifle unless you've also put some US 'compliance parts' on - or hold off until we run thru the 922(r) drill.

You can't build a gun into a configuration that is not importable, which is why the "10 or less" ('compliance parts') game applies.

However, there is a chance that if Simonovs are 'demilitarized' - don't have exact details, but no bayo, flash hider, G/L, night sights or folder, etc. do factor in - and it becomes an ordinary semiauto rifle, then it would be importable even w/detachable magazine. Thus there is a chance that 922(r) stuff could become irrelevant if the rifle is a plain semiauto w/o any "military" features.

bwiese
01-01-2007, 3:24 AM
I'd like to point out another curiosity.

Go to http://www.calregs.com and look up Title 11, Section 5499 in the California Code of Regulations. What's missing?

If you look up Section 5495, you will see that it specifically lists "Norinco SKS w/ detachable magazine".

It's 3AM - what's missing on the Kasler list (5499)??

blacklisted
01-01-2007, 3:24 AM
It's 3AM - what's missing on the Kasler list?

Sorry, please read my updated post. :)

I'm tired and making a lot of mistakes. I should probably get some sleep.

Mssr. Eleganté
01-01-2007, 3:26 AM
Interesting. Would this mod take a C&R gun out of C&R status?

Military surplus firearms are only importable if they are both C&R and in original military configuration. So modding an M59 or M59/66 or Albanian would be the same as building a non-importable semi-auto rifle, because they are military surplus arms. That's why you would need to play the Federal 922(r) game when you make this mod.

But the biggest problem with making a Simonov type rifle 922(r) compliant in California was always the poor quality US made fixed 10 round mags. But now that we don't have to worry about fixed mags, we can use one of the better quality US made detachable magazines. Simonov type rifles that aren't marked "SKS" can now be treated just like M1A's and Mini-14's, if you first make them 922(r) compliant.

hoffmang
01-01-2007, 3:27 AM
Aint it just damn funny that with no legislative authority whatsoever, DOJ changed the list promulgated...

To bad they don't understand their own recent penal code...

Losers. Learn to play in the big leagues or give up. That means you have to have a site under the penal code to make a move or you're just proving that you enjoy violating federal law...

-Gene

Mssr. Eleganté
01-01-2007, 3:33 AM
However, there is a chance that if Simonovs are 'demilitarized' - don't have exact details, but no bayo, flash hider, G/L, night sights or folder, etc. do factor in - and it becomes an ordinary semiauto rifle, then it would be importable even w/detachable magazine. Thus there is a chance that 922(r) stuff could become irrelevant if the rifle is a plain semiauto w/o any "military" features.

ATF has said that any firearm that has ever been a military weapon can only be imported if it is a C&R and in original military configuration. So "demilitarizing" a C&R milsurp Simonov-type rifle (STR?) might not be kosher, since you would be changing it into non-importable configuration.

Demilitarizing a commercial Chinese STR would seem to be OK, but might be moot if they are all marked "SKS" or "type-banned number". I think Chinese STR's are the only commercial STR's that were ever imported. All of the rest are milsurps.

VeryCoolCat
01-01-2007, 3:39 AM
I'm sorry bill. I've said it before, I'll say it now.

It is way too early to do this... and you are definately pushing the envelope here. I personally say that it is completely legal on the grounds that you can't ban an SKS's feature by series.

I got an SKS m59/66 and I do want to buy another one.... but I will not bother converting one just yet.

Unfortunately, unlike OLL, we DO NOT have any definitive proof in law that an SKS isn't bannable by the detachable magazine feature. We don't have harrott or a test case.

So although I would say there is a good chance you would get out of court with this... (75% chance I'd say)... its your time and your money. A cop would see "It looks like a duck, it shoots like a duck... its a duck"... the same goes for OLL... but we have harrott and SB23 defined precisely so thats no contest right there the owner of the OLL wins.

BUT

the SKS law says just "SKS WITH DETACHABLE MAGAZINE" are banned. Please be careful and don't just let everyone jump into this right away... not without something to back it up.

I don't want to see innocents gun owners caught in the crossfire of our legal struggle to get our rights back. No one should have to go through what swimmingpoolguy had to go through.

blacklisted
01-01-2007, 3:42 AM
THIS IS PRELIMINARY AND MAY NOT BE CORRECT

Perhaps someone more knowledgeable on Federal 922r issues can expand/correct this.

If 922r covers the following...


(1) Frames receivers, receiver castings, forgings, or stampings
(2) Barrels
(3) Barrel Extensions
(4) Mounting blocks (trunnions)
(5) Muzzle attachments
(6) Bolts
(7) Bolt carriers
(8) Operating rods (charging handle)
(9) Gas pistons
(10) Trigger housings (lower receiver)
(11) Triggers
(12) Hammers
(13) Sears
(14) Disconnectors
(15) Buttstocks
(16) Pistol grips
(17) Forearms, handguards
(18) Magazine bodies
(19) Followers
(20) Floorplates

Siminov type rifles with US made detachable magazine installed have the following foreign parts:

1) Receiver
2) Barrel
3) Bolt
4) Bolt Carrier
5) Gas Piston
6) Trigger Housing
7) Trigger
8) Hammer
9) Sear
10) Disconnector
11) Buttstock
12) Handguard
- With foreign magazines
13) Magazine body
14) Follower
15) Floorplate

If one were to replace only 2-3 of these parts, it would seem to put the rifle in 922r compliance (if using US made magazines, 5-6 parts with foreign). Am I right?

If the Grenade Launcher were removed from the M59/66 (as it is on California compliant rifles), a US made muzzle brake would remove the "Muzzle attachment" consideration above.

bwiese
01-01-2007, 3:49 AM
ATF has said that any firearm that has ever been a military weapon can only be imported if it is a C&R and in original military configuration. So "demilitarizing" a C&R milsurp Simonov-type rifle (STR?) might not be kosher, since you would be changing it into non-importable configuration.

Demilitarizing a commercial Chinese STR would seem to be OK, but might be moot if they are all marked "SKS" or "type-banned number". I think Chinese STR's are the only commercial STR's that were ever imported. All of the rest are milsurps.


I recall there is ATF paperwork (Bardwell site?) that says if firearms get all the evil features removed - and the SKS was an example, with night sites, bayo, G/L or flash hider removed - that it's then an ordinary importable semiauto rifle. (No other 'nonsporting' features like pistol grips, etc.)

E Pluribus Unum
01-01-2007, 3:51 AM
the SKS law says just "SKS WITH DETACHABLE MAGAZINE" are banned. Please be careful and don't just let everyone jump into this right away... not without something to back it up.

I don't want to see innocents gun owners caught in the crossfire of our legal struggle to get our rights back. No one should have to go through what swimmingpoolguy had to go through.

"SKS WITH DETACHABLE MAGAZINE" sounds much too similar to "AR/AK SERIES".

What if the verbage had been "AR WITH DETACHABLE MAGAZINE"?

That might be vulnerable to legal attack as being too vague.

bwiese
01-01-2007, 3:57 AM
"SKS WITH DETACHABLE MAGAZINE" sounds much too similar to "AR/AK SERIES".

What if the verbage had been "AR WITH DETACHABLE MAGAZINE"?

That might be vulnerable to legal attack as being too vague.

Correct, you have a point.

However, this point is not necessary - as many Simonov rifles are not called SKSes - the Yugo gun is called a Zastava M59/66, for example - even by Calif DOJ!

hoffmang
01-01-2007, 4:00 AM
I have a Russian and it says SKS on the side. Read Harrot v. County of Kings. It makes it clear that for the rifle to be the SKS with detachable magazine, it had better say SKS somewhere on that rifle.

-Gene

bwiese
01-01-2007, 4:04 AM
I have a Russian and it says SKS on the side. Read Harrot v. County of Kings. It makes it clear that for the rifle to be the SKS with detachable magazine, it had better say SKS somewhere on that rifle.


Gene,

I don't think Harrott directly applies here (indirectly, yes). Harrott addresses AR/AK matters, and brings them in concordance with the rest of the Roberti-Roos list.

Imbel FAL? not banned (disregarding features)
FN FAL? banned

HK HK-91? banned
JLD PTR-91? not banned

In the 18yr history of Roberti-Roos, DOJ has never asserted, except in "series" guns (ARs, AKs) that something not listed is considered an AW.

The colloquial terms for such rifles are just that and have no legal force. If they wanna ban a Zastava M59/66, they could've filed a 12276.5PC 'add on' petition. They didn't, and they can't :)

CWatson
01-01-2007, 8:36 AM
So are we going to be seeing SKS "style" recievers that take ak mags on the market soon?


CWatson

kermit
01-01-2007, 8:43 AM
Thanks, Bill and all you other experts!

This is just the news that I've been waiting for ever since a thread you started on this was mysteriously deleted as I was reading it.:confused: :)

I realize there is still a lot to discuss, but once you all have hashed out the details, please put out a plain-language FAQ sheet that we can print out and carry.

2007 looks like it will be a very interesting year for more than just the James Bond fans :D

tenpercentfirearms
01-01-2007, 8:55 AM
So are we going to be seeing SKS "style" recievers that take ak mags on the market soon?


CWatson
This is an interesting question. The sporter SKS was banned, but what about the sporter Yugo?

The only bad thing is the supply of Yugos has dried up and out of the 15 I ordered, I only have one left. And this last batch wasn't anything you would want to take home to momma.

savageevo
01-01-2007, 9:31 AM
I just bought this rifle from turners. how would I know if it is the right rifle for CA. On there advertisement it states sks and I believe it is Yugo. What are the distinct features that I should look for.. also say it is a CA legal type sks can I install a t6 stock if I keep the fixed original magazine and play the numer game.

DV8
01-01-2007, 9:42 AM
So are we going to be seeing SKS "style" recievers that take ak mags on the market soon?


CWatson

That would be a good thing as it gives us another option. For now, the only closest thing would be a saiga-ak build.

Diablo
01-01-2007, 9:50 AM
Thanks for th good news Bill!!

moulton
01-01-2007, 9:56 AM
Sweet

zrunr
01-01-2007, 10:03 AM
Regarding the 922r, Turners in Reseda was selling an SKS with the Tapko pistol grip and CAR type stock with no other parts modifications. The manager said this was fine.

gidddy169
01-01-2007, 10:23 AM
Turners was wrong I wouldn't rely on any gun dealer to know the laws that well. I have a local one that would put forward pgrips on socom 2's because someone told him it was okay. I tried to correct him.

Addax
01-01-2007, 12:16 PM
Just received my new Tapco catalog Friday and they are selling what looks like a detachable mag for the Yugo? I am not home right now, but I will dbl check tonight. I think it is a polymer 5 rnd mag?

Thank you bwiese!

69Mach1
01-01-2007, 12:27 PM
Just received my new Tapco catalog Friday and they are selling what looks like a detachable mag for the Yugo? I am not home right now, but I will dbl check tonight. I think it is a polymer 5 rnd mag?

Thank you bwiese!

I'm looking at the catalog right now. The 5 round detachable magazine features composite construction, holds the bolt open on the last shot, and made in the U.S. How about a 10 round version?

Also according to TAPCO, in order to install their T6 adj. stock, you must install 7 compliance parts. (8 if you install a muzzle break). The T6 stock kit is 3 parts, the det. mag is 3, the operating rod is 1, and their muzzle break makes 8

Santa Cruz Armory
01-01-2007, 12:38 PM
Heres the ad from the fall '06 catalog:

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e346/BLFD1/pics083.jpg

And the verbage:

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e346/BLFD1/pics084.jpg

SC_00_05
01-01-2007, 12:41 PM
I'm looking at the catalog right now. The 5 round detachable magazine features composite construction, holds the bolt open on the last shot, and made in the U.S. How about a 10 round version?

Also according to TAPCO, in order to install their T6 adj. stock, you must install 7 compliance parts. (8 if you install a muzzle break). The T6 stock kit is 3 parts, the det. mag is 3, the operating rod is 1, and their muzzle break makes 8
Unless I've missed something, just remember that if you install this stock, all the US parts do is make it 922r compliant. You'd still have the SB-23 features to follow. In other words, you still can't have a pistol grip or collapsable stock on your Simonov type rifle if you're running a detachable mag.

I think this Simonov situation is absolutely great but it's still not legal to put on the evil parts if you're running detachable mag. The best situation is that we'll now have a $179 7.62x39 semiautomatic rifle that is completly reliable and is able to utlilize all those high cap detachable magazines we bought before the ban.

SC_00_05
01-01-2007, 12:52 PM
I just bought this rifle from turners. how would I know if it is the right rifle for CA. On there advertisement it states sks and I believe it is Yugo. What are the distinct features that I should look for.. also say it is a CA legal type sks can I install a t6 stock if I keep the fixed original magazine and play the numer game.
To add detachable mags, it can't say SKS anywhere on it. Yours should be fine as it likely says M59 7.62x39 on one side and ZASTAVA - YUGOSLAVIA on the other. Remember that this doesn't preclude any 922r federal rules (even though if I remember correctly, no individual has ever been prosecuted for 922r violations). The T6 stock should be completely legal if you continue to use the fixed mag.

69Mach1
01-01-2007, 12:55 PM
Unless I've missed something, just remember that if you install this stock, all the US parts do is make it 922r compliant. You'd still have the SB-23 features to follow. In other words, you still can't have a pistol grip or collapsable stock on your Simonov type rifle if you're running a detachable mag.

I think this Simonov situation is absolutely great but it's still not legal to put on the evil parts if you're running detachable mag. The best situation is that we'll now have a $179 7.62x39 semiautomatic rifle that is completly reliable and is able to utlilize all those high cap detachable magazines we bought before the ban.

You're right. I've been trying to find a U.S. made 10 round fixed magazine to use instead, but haven't found any.

dwtt
01-01-2007, 1:00 PM
This is very interesting and I never thought about it before.
My rifle says M59/66 Yugoslavia, and doesn't say SKS anywhere on it. So, now with the new year and the effects of AB2728 in place I can do this:
1. Replace enough parts with US made parts to be 922r compliant.
2. Don't add a pistol grip or other evil features to remain SB23 compliant
3. Replace the fixed magazine with an adapter that can allow me to use my 30-round detachable AK-47 magazines I bought in the early 1990's.

2007 is shaping up to be an interesting year, if I can find an appropriate magazine adapter. :D

rodgster
01-01-2007, 1:04 PM
I was browsing DOJ after other user's post of missing named assault weapons list.

Found this.

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/zastava.php

Is that new? Or is it a my bad?


Cheers!

hoffmang
01-01-2007, 1:09 PM
That is happily not news, but goes to prove that even the DOJ understands that that is a Zastava and not an SKS.

My point about Harrot was that it indirectly controlled the "SKS with Detachable Magazine" language.

-Gene

ke6guj
01-01-2007, 1:10 PM
Found this.

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/zastava.php

Is that new? Or is it a my bad?


Not new, been around a while. CA-legal M59/66's have to have the grenade-launcher removed, or modified so that a greande would not be attachable by sleeving it to a larger diameter.

M. Sage
01-01-2007, 1:18 PM
Not new, been around a while. CA-legal M59/66's have to have the grenade-launcher removed, or modified so that a greande would not be attachable by sleeving it to a larger diameter.

Or turning the device down to a smaller diameter...

Rumpled
01-01-2007, 1:19 PM
Note that DOJ does call that "Zastava SKS Carbines 59/66"; so in some way, they may think they are SKS.

blacklisted
01-01-2007, 1:30 PM
Note that DOJ does call that "Zastava SKS Carbines 59/66"; so in some way, they may think they are SKS.

They also seem to think that "SKS with detachable magazine" means "Norinco SKS w/ detachable magazine".

Matt C
01-01-2007, 1:51 PM
I was browsing DOJ after other user's post of missing named assault weapons list.

Found this.

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/zastava.php

Is that new? Or is it a my bad?


Cheers!

That page was really my first interaction with the DOJ FD several years ago, Even then I thought they were nuts, posting a badly photoshopped sks to "show" that it could somehow launch a grenade (a rare grenade also, which I doubt very many people in this state have ever seen, let alone owned). How on earth someone could think that banning that launcher is going to stop a person who somehow aquired a freakin RPG is beyond me.

pidooma
01-01-2007, 1:53 PM
THIS IS PRELIMINARY AND MAY NOT BE CORRECT

Perhaps someone more knowledgeable on Federal 922r issues can expand/correct this.


I don't claim to be more knowledgeable, but it looks like Tapco has a nice little web page regarding Federal 922r:

http://www.tapco.com/section922r.aspx

They say that the Simonov-type rifles have 18 parts per the ATF, so you would need to replace 8 of the parts with US-made parts (or 7 parts if no muzzle device.)

They also list 922r info for the FAL and AK. Handy.




If 922r covers the following...



Siminov type rifles with US made detachable magazine installed have the following foreign parts:

1) Receiver
2) Barrel
3) Bolt
4) Bolt Carrier
5) Gas Piston
6) Trigger Housing
7) Trigger
8) Hammer
9) Sear
10) Disconnector
11) Buttstock
12) Handguard
- With foreign magazines
13) Magazine body
14) Follower
15) Floorplate

If one were to replace only 2-3 of these parts, it would seem to put the rifle in 922r compliance (if using US made magazines, 5-6 parts with foreign). Am I right?

If the Grenade Launcher were removed from the M59/66 (as it is on California compliant rifles), a US made muzzle brake would remove the "Muzzle attachment" consideration above.

Full Clip
01-01-2007, 2:12 PM
This is an interesting interpretation of our poorly worded and loophole-filled laws. But until someone starts making an RELIABLE aftermarket mag for the Yugo, Albanian, Romanian, et all, it's just theory to me. I'm not trading in my stock mag for one that jams or only holds 5 rounds (specifically the TAPCO, which is otherwise a fine product). However, perhaps this will inspire an enterprising company to feed this possible market. TAPCO recently introduced a new 20-round detachable that is getting good reviews. Perhaps it could be pinned/modded to hold 10 rounds until they offer a 10-round fixed version... Without a mag that works as well as the factory original, any other mods are moot in my view.

artherd
01-01-2007, 3:22 PM
Yea bill, another one bites the dust!

blacklisted
01-01-2007, 3:29 PM
I don't claim to be more knowledgeable, but it looks like Tapco has a nice little web page regarding Federal 922r:

http://www.tapco.com/section922r.aspx

They say that the Simonov-type rifles have 18 parts per the ATF, so you would need to replace 8 of the parts with US-made parts (or 7 parts if no muzzle device.)

They also list 922r info for the FAL and AK. Handy.

Interesting. The Bolt Carrier and Charging handle (operating rod) are one piece, but they count it as two separate parts according to this chart. I'll have to look up some ATF letters.

M. Sage
01-01-2007, 3:39 PM
The Tapco SKS list is off. It lists a pistol grip on the SKS parts list... The number should be 17, if not lower.

Piston and op-rod here:

http://www.tickbitesupply.com/sks.html

Could check on the ATI stocks (not the telescoping or pistol-gripped ones!) lower down and see if they're US-made. Never mind, they don't seem to be...

JPglee1
01-01-2007, 4:23 PM
Keep in mind some other things too kids:

1) if you modify the SKS it should still be able to use SKS magazines. Not required, but a good side effect if possible

2) if you modify AK magazines to fit in the SKS, they MUST still work in an AK47. If you make the mags "unique" for your project, you just manufactured an illegal hicap magazine since it no longer fits the host rifle it came from...Now if you don't have any "Hi caps" and are using 10rd magazines, you can disregard this point. For the easiest conversion you'd wanna use steel 10rd Mini-30 magazines.

3) if you know what you're doing/do some reasearch you'll be able to find that there are a couple different ways to do this project. Most people will insist you have to mill out your receiver, which is 100% un true.

I'll post more on it but I can assure you that a Zastava will take an AK magazine without milling out the receiver.

If you guys are contemplating doing this conversion, I'd highly reccomend you get a second trigger group BEFORE you modify anything... This will allow you to go back to numbers matching un modified condition later down the road.

http://goldenloki.com/guns/sks/trig1.jpg

See the magazine release on the trigger group??? That needs to be removed from the FCG and modified if you're gonna use an AK magazine. The AK magazine latch point ends up "inside" the receiver on the SKS. IF you move the latch on the MAG then it won't work in an AK anymore and won't be a legal Hicap to use (unless you're using 10rd mags as I said before)

Anyone who does the mod will see what I mean, the mag latch needs to be extended "into" the receiver by about 10 mm. This is why I said to get a 2nd trigger group so you can swap back and forth with no hassles. Also because you can add a US made sear and hammer to your "new" trigger group to get your 922 count down lower (sear/gas piston/op rod/gas tube/US made floor plates/followers on AK mags)

On the front side of things, you need to mill out a small lip for the mag to catch on, like on a FAL or an original AK. If done correctly an original magazine will still go in there. You can do this operation with a dremel tool if you're patient.

Depending on how things go, I might offer a clamp-on front retension device and a modified mag release button that will allow the AK mags to work. Maybe I'll even offer whole modified trigger groups for exchange.... Lemme know if that would interest you.




JP

M. Sage
01-01-2007, 6:09 PM
Good point on the modded trigger group. That makes it "new" as far as 922r goes?

xrMike
01-01-2007, 6:17 PM
Is this thread the "announcement" that's been hinted at for the last couple of months?

hoffmang
01-01-2007, 6:30 PM
One of the announcements, yes.

-Gene

Charliegone
01-01-2007, 6:37 PM
I'd like to point out another curiosity.

If you look up Title 11, Section 5495 here (http://www.calregs.com/), you will see that it specifically lists "Norinco SKS w/ detachable magazine". How did DoJ have the authority to change what the legislation originally banned (SKS with detachable magazine) which would have included the Russian model(s) as well?

I think this is a mistake. The ban list DOES NOT say norinco sks. It says SKS with detachable magazine. I assume they mean the sks-d (the one with the thumbhole stock) not the regular sks with regular stock. Still they can't do that simply because they "think" its right...the list says sks with detachable mag. I'll check my norinco sks to see what it says on the side...I'm sure I'll find something..

OldWestGambler
01-01-2007, 6:45 PM
I saw the mag recievers at the last gun show in Costa Mesa for sale. Anyone that wants one could get a ton of them there or probably online. I would really make sure it's Kosher before changing it to from fixed to mag.

metalhead357
01-02-2007, 12:32 AM
I saw the mag recievers at the last gun show in Costa Mesa for sale. Anyone that wants one could get a ton of them there or probably online. I would really make sure it's Kosher before changing it to from fixed to mag.

got a linky for the manufacturererer?????

JPglee1
01-02-2007, 9:51 AM
So what, no one has done this conversion yet???

Im too skeered to post pics ;)


J

OldWestGambler
01-02-2007, 2:30 PM
got a linky for the manufacturererer?????

Reply: This site has them for sale: Scroll down 3/4 the way to mag.
http://www.tickbitesupply.com/sks.html

What would look sweet is if this is for real and it's legal to have detach mags on Yugo's, to get a CA legal 10 round Mag that looks like a 30 round mag. Like tenpercent sales. They claim it's 100% legal and only holds to rounds. That would make a Yugo look wicked as hell. Probably draw too much attention to take to the range, but it would be fun to have at home and show friends like that.

This is exciting news, but I'm going to wait for ordering until I see more green lights to change it. It would be cool to change my 2 Yugo's to accepting mags later on, but only if 100% legal.

JPglee1
01-02-2007, 2:39 PM
What would look sweet is if this is for real and it's legal to have detach mags on Yugo's, to get a CA legal 10 round Mag that looks like a 30 round mag. Like tenpercent sales. They claim it's 100% legal and only holds to rounds. That would make a Yugo look wicked as hell. Probably draw too much attention to take to the range, but it would be fun to have at home and show friends like that.
.

You mean like this:

http://i16.tinypic.com/2mqop4l.jpg

Im gonna be offering a kit real soon to put AK mags into your Yugo M59 w/no perm mods to the gun aside from 2 small holes that are hidden by the stock. The kit will include a 10/30 magazine like you're saying and probably a new trigger group assembly (or at the least a new mag latch to put on your assembly)

I've been researching this a long time... There ARE ways to do it w/out welding/cutting/milling....


J

bwiese
01-02-2007, 5:49 PM
Good man, JPGlee.

Perhaps sell it with a 922(r) compliance parts kit so it's one-stop shopping.

metalhead357
01-02-2007, 6:29 PM
Thanks for the link!:D

(but I aint gonna be the test case:eek: )

alpha_romeo_XV
01-02-2007, 6:38 PM
I checked out several of the different synthetic stocks and detachable mags. The Butler Creek stock and a straight 10 rnd mag made a Yugo look like a real rifle. Wasn't hard to get enough parts to make 922(r) compliant either. Now the price of Yugos will probably go up. Remember when Wolf ammo was less than $0.10/rnd?

grammaton76
01-02-2007, 6:49 PM
I recall reading that ATF is specifically ok with Monte Carlo stocks, and doesn't consider that a C&R-status-revoking issue. Hence, no 922(r) compliance issues to work through if that's the ONLY change you make. I would love to find some solid statements about that though...

ghost
01-02-2007, 9:06 PM
what about the fiberforce stocks grammation?would those those be legal with the non-sks detachable mag build.

Altahick
01-02-2007, 10:05 PM
its late and i have to get up early so i cant read through all the post right now, but is there any solid info on this that we could maby print out and keep with our zastavas? i dont think a leo would go for me telling him my rifle is a zastava m59 and NOT an sks without some kind of proof. i really want to do this but i want to make sure my ***** is covered before i do something that could get me locked up, i know its ok but i need to be able to convince leo's and other peeps. thanks calguns

OldWestGambler
01-02-2007, 10:26 PM
I've been researching this a long time... There ARE ways to do it w/out welding/cutting/milling....

Reply: I'll keep you in mind when I'm ready to make the change from fixed to mag. Isn't there just a mag receiver you can buy and pop it in? It's like $20 bucks for the receiver and 10 rnd mag on that link I posted.

JPglee1
01-02-2007, 10:36 PM
I'll keep you in mind when I'm ready to make the change from fixed to mag. Isn't there just a mag receiver you can buy and pop it in? It's like $20 bucks for the receiver and 10 rnd mag on that link I posted.

You mean for a duckbill mag, like this:

http://www.mwgco.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/SKS-10-762X39-BLUE-MAG.gif

Yah, that will work, but they are pretty crappy. The method I have developed is for using genuine AK magazines that are 100% reliable and easy to find.

If you do not already own hicap AK magazines, then there is no real advantage to going with a detachable magazine M59/Yugo. The gun will be limited to 10rds either way, and with the original mag and stripper clips it loads faster than you will using those duckbill POS mags. My conversion method would allow 10rd factory AK mags to work which are MUCH more reliable and faster to insert/remove than the duckbill variety, but its more intended for people who already own hicap AK magazines

30rd AK mag is the advantage, not the fact it's detachable...for me I would probably leave the 30rd mag in the gun all the time anyway and still load it with strippers..Or maybe use my 20rd AK mag instead. I think the M59/Yugo is great w/strippers just needs to hold more than 10rds. My ideal M59/Yugo would use the 20rd "Star" magazine, but those are permanent and wouldn't be legal (how's that for logic....)


JP

ChuckBooty
06-09-2009, 8:09 PM
Bump...to answer some questions that have recently come up!:D

Theseus
06-09-2009, 8:10 PM
Holy necro-post Batman!

truthseeker
06-09-2009, 8:20 PM
From waaaaaay back!

leitung
06-09-2009, 8:27 PM
Holy necro-post Batman!

Seriously, I was like WTF!?!!???:eek:

Kestryll
06-09-2009, 8:33 PM
http://www.malice4you.com/images/lolcats/necropost.jpg

Theseus
06-09-2009, 8:34 PM
I thought that I dreamed the last two new years eve's. . . which would have meant I dreamed watching those two girls falling in love with each other.


It is beautiful when two women can find love.

ChuckBooty
06-09-2009, 8:42 PM
There was some differing opinions on whether or not this was legal.

shmeare
05-18-2010, 9:07 PM
any news or new updates as to having an Zastava 59/66 with a detachable 10rd magazine? or at this point should it always be non-detachable?

SJgunguy24
05-18-2010, 9:11 PM
any news or new updates as to having an Zastava 59/66 with a detachable 10rd magazine? or at this point should it always be non-detachable?

Necro post from hell eh'?

The Zestava 59/66 is the exact same as any other off list lower.

E-120
05-18-2010, 9:39 PM
Does anyone sale a 10 30 for the sks?

bwiese
05-18-2010, 11:16 PM
any news or new updates as to having an Zastava 59/66 with a detachable 10rd magazine? or at this point should it always be non-detachable?

RTF original post.

A Zastava 59/66 is not an SKS. It thus can have detachable mags holding 10rds or less. You need to ensure 922(r) domestic parts compliance.

That being said, I don't see the use of this other than peeing off The Man.
SKSes work perfectly nicely the way they are, and the parts involved in reconfiguring are from friggin' Tapco (thanks, I'll stick with OEM).

Does anyone sale a 10 30 for the sks?

Why the hell would you want one? That's just "lookitme" bait idiocy.

SJgunguy24
05-18-2010, 11:21 PM
RTF original post.

A Zastava 59/66 is not an SKS. It thus can have detachable mags holding 10rds or less. You need to ensure 922(r) domestic parts compliance.

That being said, I don't see the use of this other than peeing off The Man.
SKSes work perfectly nicely the way they are, and the parts involved in reconfiguring are from friggin' Tapco (thanks, I'll stick with OEM).



Why the hell would you want one? That's just "lookitme" bait idiocy.

Because form over function kicks azz!!!!:rolleyes:

shmeare
05-19-2010, 8:57 AM
Well, I actually like the original configuration... but I had to remove and destroy the GL from the barrel and thus play with 922(r) 10rd game which sucks... And Tapco makes the only 10rd fixed magazine with a pin to make it non-detachable and 100% usa made. In order to achieve compliance had to change:

1.) Tapco gas piston= 1 part
1.) Tapco mussle break= 1 part
1.) Tapco 10rd fixed mag= 3 parts or 2 parts
1.) Murray's trigger= 1 part
1.) Murray's hammer= 1 part
1.) Murray's sear= 1 part

Total usa made 7 or 6

on top of that i also have a tapco operating rod (which apparently doesn't count) and a Murray's firing pin with a spring... otherwise those two can also count as two more.

So just to be clear on the Zastava 59/66 how many part imported parts does it have 14 or 15?


RTF original post.

A Zastava 59/66 is not an SKS. It thus can have detachable mags holding 10rds or less. You need to ensure 922(r) domestic parts compliance.

That being said, I don't see the use of this other than peeing off The Man.
SKSes work perfectly nicely the way they are, and the parts involved in reconfiguring are from friggin' Tapco (thanks, I'll stick with OEM).



Why the hell would you want one? That's just "lookitme" bait idiocy.

grammaton76
05-20-2010, 5:21 PM
Well, I actually like the original configuration... but I had to remove and destroy the GL from the barrel and thus play with 922(r) 10rd game which sucks... And Tapco makes the only 10rd fixed magazine with a pin to make it non-detachable and 100% usa made. In order to achieve compliance had to change:

1.) Tapco gas piston= 1 part
1.) Tapco mussle break= 1 part
1.) Tapco 10rd fixed mag= 3 parts or 2 parts
1.) Murray's trigger= 1 part
1.) Murray's hammer= 1 part
1.) Murray's sear= 1 part

Total usa made 7 or 6

on top of that i also have a tapco operating rod (which apparently doesn't count) and a Murray's firing pin with a spring... otherwise those two can also count as two more.

So just to be clear on the Zastava 59/66 how many part imported parts does it have 14 or 15?

You're way over what you strictly need for US parts on that rifle.

http://gunwiki.net/Gunwiki/BuildSKSVerifyCompliance
http://gunwiki.net/Gunwiki/LegalFederal922rParts

JeffM
05-20-2010, 6:38 PM
When does JPglee get out of prison? I want to hear about his AK mag conversion.

Dr Rockso
05-20-2010, 6:47 PM
Well, I actually like the original configuration... but I had to remove and destroy the GL from the barrel and thus play with 922(r) 10rd game which sucks...

Just removing the GL doesn't trigger 922(r).

From http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=19536

Non-sporting features may be removed from SKS and AK type rifles without
violating 922®, i.e. bayonet, bayonet lug, bipod, grenade launcher, flash
suppressor, and night sight. Any additions to SKS and AK type rifles would
make them nonsporting firearms that would be in violation of 922®. These
additions include: replacing the thumbhole stock with a pistol grip and
military style stock and/or modifying the firearm to accept a high capacity
magazine.