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Knight_Who_Says_Ni
07-06-2011, 8:45 AM
I have the opportunity to build a 80% lower, but is this legal for a 16 y/o like me? I would love some clarification on this!

Tripper
07-06-2011, 8:56 AM
I'll take a stab and say probably not
Because can't legally own

Flintlock Tom
07-06-2011, 9:07 AM
I think it's legal if you're building a rifle, but not if you're building a pistol.

I think.

ke6guj
07-06-2011, 9:32 AM
I'll take a stab and say probably not
Because can't legally ownwhy can't a 16-year old legally own a rifle?

gun toting monkeyboy
07-06-2011, 10:11 AM
That is a good question. One of the legal minds will chime in soon, I am sure. I know you can't buy a long gun, but owning one may be another matter entirely.

-Mb

Bhobbs
07-06-2011, 10:54 AM
why can't a 16-year old legally own a rifle?

I think a 16 year old can be given a rifle or shotgun by a parent or grandparent. Since they are not buying the lower I don't see why they cannot machine it. But I am not a lawyer so I don't know.

Turo
07-06-2011, 11:03 AM
Yes you may build a lower from an 80%. The law only says you must be 18 to buy a long gun. You can own one at any age.

Tripper
07-06-2011, 11:19 AM
under 18 cant own antyhing

Farva
07-06-2011, 11:30 AM
under 18 cant own antyhing


Nope

mosinnagantm9130
07-06-2011, 1:47 PM
under 18 cant own antyhing

Wrong. There is no law prohibiting ownership by kids under 18. You cannot buy long guns while under 18, but there is no law prohibiting getting them as a gift.

wash
07-06-2011, 1:56 PM
I think your parents might get in trouble for allowing a minor access to a gun.

If that is an issue, emancipation might fix it up.

Wernher von Browning
07-06-2011, 2:21 PM
Wow. A 16-year-old making a lower. OK, I know at 80% it's not rocket science, but thankfully there are still kids in this country willing to actually build something. (I'm a few generations older, and we had machine shop and foundry and wood shop in a college-prep high school). Legal implications aside (and I suspect it's completely legal but what do I know), this ought to be encouraged -- by the parents, and the gun community.

Pending legal blessing, I say go for it, Knight Who Says Ni!
(And I'd like a shrubbery, with a nice two-tiered effect...)

Sincerely,
Sir Ekke Ekke Ekke Ekke Ptangya Ziiinnggggggg Ni!
(Who, after dispatching killer rabbits, is even now making a zero-percent lower).

surplus-addict
07-06-2011, 2:25 PM
Wait, so this means I can build one?(15 as of yesterday).
This is amazing:D
I want to take a stab at a Romy G kit now :)

CSACANNONEER
07-06-2011, 2:28 PM
It is 100% legal for any non prohibited person OF ANY AGE to build a long gun for their own personal use. In fact, I'm sure enough of this that I'll openly admit to helping a few people under the age of 18 build Cailfornia legal AK patterned rifles WITH THEIR PARENT'S CONSENT.

CHS
07-06-2011, 2:28 PM
You might have some issues if you built the firearm into a handgun, since ownership of handguns under the age of 18 is generally prohibited.

However, building a firearm for personal use that's going to end up as a long gun shouldn't have any legal issues. My concern would be at the point where it is legally a firearm (i.e. a complete receiver), but not yet a rifle. As a receiver, you cannot buy one unless you are 21 and they can be used in the construction of handguns. So there might be some weird issues there. But that's the only thing I can think of.

CSACANNONEER
07-06-2011, 2:30 PM
I think your parents might get in trouble for allowing a minor access to a gun.

If that is an issue, emancipation might fix it up.

There is nothing illegal about allowing minors access to firearms! The only laws on the books make it a crime ONLY if a minor accessess a firearm and commits a crime with it. Besides, who said his/her parents won't keep it locked in a safe which he/she doesn't have access to?

CSACANNONEER
07-06-2011, 2:31 PM
You might have some issues if you built the firearm into a handgun, since ownership of handguns under the age of 18 is generally prohibited.

However, building a firearm for personal use that's going to end up as a long gun shouldn't have any legal issues. My concern would be at the point where it is legally a firearm (i.e. a complete receiver), but not yet a rifle. As a receiver, you cannot buy one unless you are 21 and they can be used in the construction of handguns. So there might be some weird issues there. But that's the only thing I can think of.

Still. it's not illegal for a minor to own a receiver. In fact, many 18 year olds have been legally given stripped receivers by their parents.

CHS
07-06-2011, 2:45 PM
Still. it's not illegal for a minor to own a receiver.


I'd like to see some legal backing on this one. I know minors can generally own Rifles and Shotguns.


In fact, many 18 year olds have been legally given stripped receivers by their parents.

Yeah, at 18 you can own any kind of Title 1 firearm. I'm talking about under-18. I'm genuinely curious of someone under 18 can own a receiver. They can't own handguns, so why would they be able to own receivers? (federally, not just CA law)

CSACANNONEER
07-06-2011, 3:19 PM
I'd like to see some legal backing on this one. I know minors can generally own Rifles and Shotguns.



Yeah, at 18 you can own any kind of Title 1 firearm. I'm talking about under-18. I'm genuinely curious of someone under 18 can own a receiver. They can't own handguns, so why would they be able to own receivers? (federally, not just CA law)

Sounds like a great question to ask ATF at SHOT 2012. If I was really concerned, I'd write an request an opinion letter but, I'm not so, FTF at SHOT will do me fine.

Liberty1
07-06-2011, 3:49 PM
Great thread. All the teenagers will 'out' themselves. I swear sometimes here it feels like I'm arguing with a 13 year old!:p

jamesob
07-06-2011, 3:55 PM
As csacannoner said its legal to build one.

Dead*Reckoned
07-06-2011, 4:26 PM
Yes, I did one when I was 17, you just can't make it into a pistol until you are 18.

safewaysecurity
07-06-2011, 4:31 PM
Wasn't there an 11 year old who's dad took him to an AK build party or something and he bent his own flat?

john.t.singh
07-06-2011, 4:37 PM
Yes, I did one when I was 17, you just can't make it into a pistol until you are 18.

i was under the impression you can never "make" it into a pistol. Once a rifle always a rifle sort of thing

Dead*Reckoned
07-06-2011, 4:40 PM
i was under the impression you can never "make" it into a pistol. Once a rifle always a rifle sort of thing

Sorry, i wasn't implying that you can make it a rifle at 17 then switch over to a pistol when you turn 18. I was just saying that if you start out with a fresh 80% when you are over the age of 18, it was never a rifle to begin with so you are allowed to build it into a roster exempt pistol.

Knight_Who_Says_Ni
07-06-2011, 7:11 PM
Thanks guys, exactly what I was looking for! Now I just need to make it out to a AK build party after I do an 80%!

goober
07-06-2011, 8:01 PM
legal to own, legal to build. period.

armygunsmith
07-06-2011, 8:04 PM
Outstanding! It's good to see a motivated young person wanting to take on such a project. Looks like you're good to go, keep us updated.

Tripper
07-06-2011, 8:07 PM
I still contend a minor legally owns nothing
A minor generally is not personally liable for anything, his/her parents are.
a Minor cannot sign an enforceable contract.
even an emancipated minor, does not qualify for some things like that.

i'm not from around here, so, could be just a where i'm from thing i suppose, but not sure how it wouldnt apply across state lines

Tripper
07-06-2011, 8:12 PM
I was actually wondering the same thing, as i still have kids under 18 that I'd like to start building AR's for.

I'm not sure I want to do that though, as my intent would be 80% builds, as their own, but i dont want to create instant felons at 18.

hmm, which makes me think if a scenario.
if a 16year old, completes his/her own 80%, and creates an assault weapon
who goes to jail
I'm gonna bet mom or dad does, or whatever adult over 18, was present at that build.
anything resulting from that build, i'm gonna think is going to be blamed solely on the parent.
just my thoughts...
I am curious how accurate that would be though

Tripper
07-06-2011, 8:12 PM
oh, cool, I'll be able to blame goober

goober
07-06-2011, 8:22 PM
oh, cool, I'll be able to blame goober

let me know how that works out for ya :p

Turo
07-06-2011, 8:22 PM
I was actually wondering the same thing, as i still have kids under 18 that I'd like to start building AR's for.

I'm not sure I want to do that though, as my intent would be 80% builds, as their own, but i dont want to create instant felons at 18.

hmm, which makes me think if a scenario.
if a 16year old, completes his/her own 80%, and creates an assault weapon
who goes to jail
I'm gonna bet mom or dad does, or whatever adult over 18, was present at that build.
anything resulting from that build, i'm gonna think is going to be blamed solely on the parent.
just my thoughts...
I am curious how accurate that would be though

Are you saying that a minor cannot break the law? Or that if he/she does then their parents are able to be prosecuted for it? I'm pretty sure that if a 16yo kid commits a felony and is caught, they are going to be prosecuted for it. They might be charged as a minor, but they still committed a felony.

If you still aren't sure under 18 people can own firearms, why don't you look up the laws on your own? They aren't hard to find, especially on the internet (http://leginfo.ca.gov/).

ElvenSoul
07-06-2011, 8:22 PM
Post pics of how it turns out...good for you attempting it.

goober
07-06-2011, 8:27 PM
if there is any doubt about whether a minor can own (and thus build), an adult parent can certainly build and then transfer (or loan indefinitely) a long gun to a minor.

bubbapug1
07-06-2011, 8:33 PM
The answer is pretty clear to me, mills need to be banned along with endmills and drill bits too.

Turo
07-06-2011, 8:46 PM
The answer is pretty clear to me, mills need to be banned along with endmills and drill bits too.

Hehe. My dad always jokes that if guns are banned, only machinists will have guns. :D (he's a machinist)

goober
07-06-2011, 8:55 PM
thinking further on it, there might be liability on the part of the adult that makes the build possible, if parental consent is not given...

luckystrike
07-06-2011, 8:58 PM
thats awesome that you are building an ak at 16, I moved here when I was 11 or 12 and when I was 14 my mom went with me to a gunshop so we could get one and transfer it to me, the gunshop told us that we were felons for even thinking about that and refused the sale. so big thanks to them I didnt have a gun till I was 18. :mad:

Wernher von Browning
07-06-2011, 9:15 PM
Thanks guys, exactly what I was looking for! Now I just need to make it out to a AK build party after I do an 80%!

OK, you're into AKs, but how about a word for the home team?

There's extensive online documentation on how to build an AR-15 lower, from less than 80%. I don't know what "percent" these are (zero? ten?) but you can buy a forged blank from various suppliers and poke all your holes in it. I bought a forged blank from JD Machine in San Diego for $25, it already has the magazine well broached through which saves a ton of work.

This site has 80-odd pages of cookbook instructions, assuming you have a vertical mill and a digital readout.

http://arlower.ray-vin.com/ar15/

The complete document is here:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CCMQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Farlower.ray-vin.com%2Far15%2Fchapter00.pdf&rct=j&q=ray-vin%20ar-15&ei=ITAVTpTvO-OosAKkx4BS&usg=AFQjCNG2tMihezUMJbTmNl1bnFUEe-PVbQ&cad=rja

More stuff.
http://www.arlower.ray-vin.com/disclaimer.htm

Somebody posted a video tour of JD Machine, there's a segment on there showing the magwell broaching operation. Better they do it than I do it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2n7SUQvo1M

I wish somebody had a similar cookbook for an AR-10, along with forgings. Haven't found any such instructions yet.

bjl333
07-06-2011, 9:22 PM
WOW!! I didn't know an under 18yo can build a rifle!! Good news for lots of teenagers out there!

Off topic! I have a friend that build a 50bmg when he was 16 (before the ban). Is it legal for him to own it? I think it is patterned after a Barrett semiauto.

goober
07-06-2011, 9:28 PM
OK, you're into AKs, but how about a word for the home team?

There's extensive online documentation on how to build an AR-15 lower, from less than 80%. I don't know what "percent" these are (zero? ten?) but you can buy a forged blank from various suppliers and poke all your holes in it. I bought a forged blank from JD Machine in San Diego for $25, it already has the magazine well broached through which saves a ton of work.

This site has 80-odd pages of cookbook instructions, assuming you have a vertical mill and a digital readout.

http://arlower.ray-vin.com/ar15/

The complete document is here:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CCMQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Farlower.ray-vin.com%2Far15%2Fchapter00.pdf&rct=j&q=ray-vin%20ar-15&ei=ITAVTpTvO-OosAKkx4BS&usg=AFQjCNG2tMihezUMJbTmNl1bnFUEe-PVbQ&cad=rja

More stuff.
http://www.arlower.ray-vin.com/disclaimer.htm

Somebody posted a video tour of JD Machine, there's a segment on there showing the magwell broaching operation. Better they do it than I do it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2n7SUQvo1M

I wish somebody had a similar cookbook for an AR-10, along with forgings. Haven't found any such instructions yet.

Ray-Vin is a great resource. Also the 5-Bears Guide, and the Builder's Squad Project (Google 'em).
While not a full tutorial (more of a demo), Vader Spade's thread is ubiquitous on many forums (here, ArfCom, CNC Gunsmithing, etc.) and quite good.

AR10 is largely the same. FCG pocket is identical. Takedown & pivot pins, bolt catch, mag catch, and such are a bit different but there are prints available.

Although it deals to some extent with jig issues that are now moot (both CNC Guns and TM now offer AR10/AR308 jigs), see this (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=200360).

ke6guj
07-06-2011, 9:29 PM
WOW!! I didn't know an under 18yo can build a rifle!! Good news for lots of teenagers out there!

Off topic! I have a friend that build a 50bmg when he was 16 (before the ban). Is it legal for him to own it? I think it is patterned after a Barrett semiauto.

it is legal for him to own it in CA provided that he turned 18 before the registration deadline and he actually registered it with CADOJ.

goober
07-06-2011, 9:31 PM
I have the opportunity to build a 80% lower, but is this legal for a 16 y/o like me? I would love some clarification on this!

@OP: Have your parents given you permission to do this? If not, DO NOT DO IT. You (and the person that is making this possible) will likely be breaking the law.

Knight_Who_Says_Ni
07-06-2011, 9:36 PM
@OP: Have your parents given you permission to do this? If not, DO NOT DO IT. You (and the person that is making this possible) will likely be breaking the law.

Total permission from my parents have been granted. Heck, they were the ones that got me hooked on shooting!

Mssr. Eleganté
07-06-2011, 9:37 PM
I still contend a minor legally owns nothing

The law does not agree with you.

Tripper
07-06-2011, 9:40 PM
Yes I know without a doubt
Parents can and are held responsible for the actions if their children
Agreed also that minors are held responsible also, their given a lot if chances though unless it's a very serious/violent crime
Truant, just as an example, the parent(s) can be sent to jail, and at the very least can be fined.

I'm suggesting that I think the adult present would be liable were anything to come up and I still think a minor can't legally own anything.
I think Ownership translates to the ability to dispose if as you see fit, a minor could not legally sell a firearm I'm guessing, thereby could not really own it.
Legally own is diff than legally responsible, which also differs from liable

bjl333
07-06-2011, 9:40 PM
WOW!! I didn't know an under 18yo can build a rifle!! Good news for lots of teenagers out there!

Off topic! I have a friend that build a 50bmg when he was 16 (before the ban). Is it legal for him to own it? I think it is patterned after a Barrett semiauto.

it is legal for him to own it in CA provided that he turned 18 before the registration deadline and he actually registered it with CADOJ.

Thanks! I'll tell'em ...

Tripper
07-06-2011, 9:43 PM
Elegant
Please refer me to where the law disagrees with me

Tripper
07-06-2011, 9:46 PM
Just suffice it to say, I'm not willing to go that route at this time, although I'd like to
I cannot justify it's legality to myself
How in earth would I justify it to anyone else
And, I have yet to find anywhere except forums such as this that it is indeed legal
I'm open entirely to an indisputable reference

goober
07-06-2011, 9:48 PM
Total permission from my parents have been granted. Heck, they were the ones that got me hooked on shooting!

Excellent. You might do the person who's shop you are using a favor by bringing them a "permission slip" & liability waiver from your parents...
It would be the gracious thing to do...

bjl333
07-06-2011, 9:53 PM
Excellent. You might do the person who's shop you are using a favor by bringing them a "permission slip" & liability waiver from your parents...
It would be the gracious thing to do...

Or bring your parents with you and have them build one too!!! :D

Tripper
07-06-2011, 9:56 PM
A minor must have adult cosign to register a car
A minor must have cosign to open bank account
So I might go along with co-ownership
But that would beg the question of who actually completed the 80 with their own hands

Tripper
07-06-2011, 9:57 PM
This is very interesting to me
Must do more research

Tripper
07-06-2011, 9:58 PM
It seems so far only health related things are ok for 16 and older

Mssr. Eleganté
07-06-2011, 10:20 PM
Elegant
Please refer me to where the law disagrees with me

It's in California Family Code, Section 7502...

FAMILY.CODE
SECTION 7500-7507



7500. (a) The mother of an unemancipated minor child, and the
father, if presumed to be the father under Section 7611, are equally
entitled to the services and earnings of the child.
(b) If one parent is dead, is unable or refuses to take custody,
or has abandoned the child, the other parent is entitled to the
services and earnings of the child.
(c) This section shall not apply to any services or earnings of an
unemancipated minor child related to a contract of a type described
in Section 6750.



7501. (a) A parent entitled to the custody of a child has a right
to change the residence of the child, subject to the power of the
court to restrain a removal that would prejudice the rights or
welfare of the child.
(b) It is the intent of the Legislature to affirm the decision in
In re Marriage of Burgess (1996) 13 Cal.4th 25, and to declare that
ruling to be the public policy and law of this state.




7502. The parent, as such, has no control over the property of the
child.


7503. The employer of a minor shall pay the earnings of the minor
to the minor until the parent or guardian entitled to the earnings
gives the employer notice that the parent or guardian claims the
earnings.

Wernher von Browning
07-06-2011, 10:37 PM
It's in California Family Code, Section 7502...7500. (a) The mother of an unemancipated minor child, and the
father, if presumed to be the father under Section 7611, are equally
entitled to the services and earnings of the child.

Dang. I coulda had my very own slave labor? Spock, why don't your people tell me these things???

Wernher von Browning
07-06-2011, 10:50 PM
Ray-Vin is a great resource. Also the 5-Bears Guide, and the Builder's Squad Project (Google 'em).
While not a full tutorial (more of a demo), Vader Spade's thread is ubiquitous on many forums (here, ArfCom, CNC Gunsmithing, etc.) and quite good.

AR10 is largely the same. FCG pocket is identical. Takedown & pivot pins, bolt catch, mag catch, and such are a bit different but there are prints available.

Although it deals to some extent with jig issues that are now moot (both CNC Guns and TM now offer AR10/AR308 jigs), see this (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=200360).

Excellent! Thanks very much. That gives me another project to look forward to.

VaderSpade
07-07-2011, 8:48 AM
It's in California Family Code, Section 7502...7500. (a) The mother of an unemancipated minor child, and the
father, if presumed to be the father under Section 7611, are equally
entitled to the services and earnings of the child.

Ya, my dad knew about that one.
The lines; Do you want supper tonight, and who's roof are you sleeping under tonight, came up a lot. :)

12voltguy
07-07-2011, 8:55 AM
I wish somebody had a similar cookbook for an AR-10, along with forgings. Haven't found any such instructions yet.

http://www.tacticalmachining.com/store/display-products.php?cid=49

goober
07-07-2011, 9:09 AM
http://www.tacticalmachining.com/store/display-products.php?cid=49

Those are DPMS pattern TM-10 "AR-308" 80% lowers, not AR-10, but they are a good option for a .308/7.62x51 AR style rifle.

For true Armalite pattern unfinished AR-10 "paperweights":
7.62SASS has 0% forgings (http://www.762sass.com/product.php?p=97&cid=2&session=c7da4f176ff6b5038c10815b5336fd19)
CNC Gunsmithing has 10%'ers (http://www.cncguns.com/products.html)
KT Ordnance has the KT-10 80% lower (http://www.ktordnance.com/kto/products.php).

Note that the last two are CNC milled from billet so they are a bit $pendy

Tripper
07-07-2011, 2:36 PM
thank you for the reference, it doesnt really answer the question, its referencing emancipation to one degree, then says parents have no control over property of the minor, i'm still not sure where a minor obtains legal property. cant sign for his/her own drivers license, cant buy a car, even with cash, must have adult sign for registration, still havent found a legal reference to a minor obtaining actual ownership of anything legal
i'm still looking for something more definitive, i dont think that reference, holds any legal bite really when it comes to guns especially, if a minor cant own a car, seems being ca would not allow ownership of a gun.

CSACANNONEER
07-07-2011, 2:42 PM
Excellent. You might do the person who's shop you are using a favor by bringing them a "permission slip" & liability waiver from your parents...
It would be the gracious thing to do...

The OP is very close to me. No shop is needed to build an AK, just a press out in a field, a file, drill and a couple punches. Of course, having a few extra tools make it go smoother. Anyway, I've already told him that I'd be more than happy to help him but, I'd need to discuss it with his parents before hand and have one or both of them present while he is at my place.

goober
07-07-2011, 2:49 PM
The OP is very close to me. No shop is needed to build an AK, just a press out in a field, a file, drill and a couple punches. Of course, having a few extra tools make it go smoother. Anyway, I've already told him that I'd be more than happy to help him but, I'd need to discuss it with his parents before hand and have one or both of them present while he is at my place.

I must have misinterpreted his post, sounded like he was doing an 80% AR lower...
But regardless, good for you for helping a young'un learn the craft, and for doing it responsibly! :)

Mssr. Eleganté
07-07-2011, 11:45 PM
thank you for the reference, it doesnt really answer the question, its referencing emancipation to one degree, then says parents have no control over property of the minor, i'm still not sure where a minor obtains legal property. cant sign for his/her own drivers license, cant buy a car, even with cash, must have adult sign for registration, still havent found a legal reference to a minor obtaining actual ownership of anything legal
i'm still looking for something more definitive, i dont think that reference, holds any legal bite really when it comes to guns especially, if a minor cant own a car, seems being ca would not allow ownership of a gun.

You're just making stuff up now. What part of "property of the minor" don't you understand?

The California Vehicle Code says it's only illegal for a minor to purchase a motor vehicle if the minor doesn't have a driver's license, and only if it is a type of vehicle that requires registration...

15500. It is unlawful for any minor who does not possess a valid
driver's license issued under this code to order, purchase or lease,
attempt to purchase or lease, contract to purchase or lease, accept,
or otherwise obtain, any vehicle of a type subject to registration.

And the California Penal Code specifically makes reference to parents and grandparents transferring firearms to minors...

12072(a)

(3)(A) No person, corporation, or firm shall sell, loan, or transfer a firearm to a minor, nor sell a handgun to an individual under 21 years of age.


12078(p)

(4) Paragraph (3) of subdivision (a), and subdivision (d), of Section 12072 shall not apply to the transfer or loan of a firearm that is not a handgun to a minor by his or her parent or legal guardian.

(5) Paragraph (3) of subdivision (a) of Section 12072 shall not apply to the transfer or loan of a firearm that is not a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person to a minor by his or her grandparent who is not the legal guardian of the minor if the transfer is done with the express permission of the parent or legal guardian of the minor.

Also, check out California Civil Code Section 671...

671 Any person, whether citizen or alien, may take, hold, and dispose of property, real or personal, within this State.

And California Family Code Sections 6700 and 6701...

6700 Except as provided in Section 6701, a minor may make a
contract in the same manner as an adult, subject to the power of
disaffirmance under Chapter 2 (commencing with Section 6710), and
subject to Part 1 (commencing with Section 300) of Division 3 (validity of marriage).



6701 A minor cannot do any of the following:
(a) Give a delegation of power.
(b) Make a contract relating to real property or any interest
therein.
(c) Make a contract relating to any personal property not in the
immediate possession or control of the minor.

If you are looking for the section of California law that specifically says that minors may own firearms I can show you that too, but only after you show me the section of California law that specifically says you are allowed to post on a gun forum without a license. ;)

Anchors
07-08-2011, 3:43 AM
Total permission from my parents have been granted. Heck, they were the ones that got me hooked on shooting!

Dude. Your parents rule. haha.

Yes I know without a doubt
Parents can and are held responsible for the actions if their children
Agreed also that minors are held responsible also, their given a lot if chances though unless it's a very serious/violent crime
Truant, just as an example, the parent(s) can be sent to jail, and at the very least can be fined.

I'm suggesting that I think the adult present would be liable were anything to come up and I still think a minor can't legally own anything.
I think Ownership translates to the ability to dispose if as you see fit, a minor could not legally sell a firearm I'm guessing, thereby could not really own it.
Legally own is diff than legally responsible, which also differs from liable

Really? I got arrested when I was 15 and my parents didn't get in trouble.
Your parents are liable for your DEBTS. Which is why all of the things you've listed require parent permission to own/do.
Bank accounts, car loans, etc.
I grew up in Arizona and had a friend who owned a shotgun and a rifle at 15. They were both kept in HIS room and they were HIS. His parents had their own safe and firearms.

You are simply wrong.
The real reason "kids don't really own anything" is because of what the OP mentioned.
You can tell your dad that is YOUR Xbox all you want, but he can also tell you "I buy all your food, pay the rent, pay the bills, and own the car".
You will then probably surrender the Xbox.


A minor must have adult cosign to register a car
A minor must have cosign to open bank account
So I might go along with co-ownership
But that would beg the question of who actually completed the 80 with their own hands

You are talking about debts and legal contracts.
This is where your logic is lacking.

You could actually live with a parent who gives you a firearm that you keep in your own safe and only you have access to and then that parent becomes a prohibited person under federal law.
As long as they had no access to your safe/gun, you can still legally own that gun as a minor.

Tripper
07-09-2011, 8:29 PM
your right, its probably dealing mostly with contracts and such.
the closest thing i see so far is the code 671 really
the rest specifically refer to parent/guardian.

We are in CA, and we are referring to a somewhat heavily regulated pice of property.

I'm willing to bet 100bullets (9mm, not .416), a 16 year old cannot go anywhere and claim a rifle is his/her own property, if a parent says its theirs, the parent is going to be the one waling away with it.
Lets just say, hypothetically, a minor gets picked up, with a rifle. an agency takes possession, for whatever reason, once it becomes necessary to release that firearm to the owner, it would absolutely not be released to a minor, no matter how many people say it is his property.

any objections to that.

Now i dont disagree that it should be the way suggested.
I'm simply thinking realistically, we're not talking xbox's, were talking guns in CA

and, yes, i know parents are held responsible, call the DA's office in your county, and ask if you can be held responsible for your childs ditching school, or even having too many absences.

I dont think a minor can have what would be considered their own safe

Here's one reference that kinds of goes against that idea, it would imply that the parent is liable/legally/criminally responsible

(PC Section 12035-12036)
Am I required by law to store my firearms where children cannot access them?

Yes. In most cases, if you keep any loaded firearm within any premise which is under your custody or control and know or reasonably should know that a child (person under 18 years of age) is likely to gain access to the firearm, you may be guilty of a felony if a child gains access to that firearm and thereby causes death or injury to any person unless the firearm was in a secure locked container or locked with a locking device that rendered it inoperable.

maybe i'm also misrepresting my thoughts here
of course my youngest son can say the xbox is his, however, I'm the final say on what happens to that xbox. (as longs as its ok with mom)
I'm still responsible/liable for his actions regarding said xbox, although he may 'own' it
i'm seeing ownership is the person liable for anything regarding an item

goober
07-09-2011, 8:33 PM
A long gun can be loaned to a minor for an indefinite period. Like as long as you want.

Tripper
07-09-2011, 8:40 PM
lol, the xbox Halo 360 in my sig, is my sons as a matter of fact, but look who had to replace it.

Tripper
07-09-2011, 8:46 PM
and by the way, I want to make sure I can show officer X the actual legal way this is being done.

I want to be able to have an absolutely irrefutable reference.

I'm cant really say to officer x, or DA Y, oh i thought it was fine cause everyone on the forum said so.

CSACANNONEER
07-09-2011, 8:53 PM
and by the way, I want to make sure I can show officer X the actual legal way this is being done.

I want to be able to have an absolutely irrefutable reference.

I'm cant really say to officer x, or DA Y, oh i thought it was fine cause everyone on the forum said so.

Show me the law that makes it legal for you to breathe. I'm willing to bet that it would be easier for an attorney to prove (in a court of law) that it is legal for a minor to own a firearm than proving it is legal to breathe.

Tripper
07-09-2011, 9:00 PM
ok,
riddle me this
If you GIVE a rifle to your 16 year old son/daughter
and tehy go and shoot someone with said rifle

who is going to jail?

the person that pulled the trigger, AND the owner of the rifle is of course
owner=person/entity responsible for said property

tell me i'm wrong on that

Tripper
07-09-2011, 9:10 PM
additionally
once he turns 18, does he have to register it?
if the answer is yes, that blows the ownership part out of the water as there would be no reason to register something that is legally already yours.
if you dont have to register it, that makes things a bit diff. (which is what i want to identify, as an 80% must be completed with your own hands, i want to make sure that a 16 year old has the legal capacity to perform that function, else I'm afraid it would not comply with being built by ones self)

its referenced here, that the law does not agree with me, yet i have no found where it specifically does not agree. theres reference to lots of other thing, but not firearms.

There is absolutely nothing that states a minor can have actual ownership of anything.
what would be the purpose of trusts, in the event of death, having a trust/guardianship, if the money/trust is theirs, they would have complete control and could do with it as they please, yet, thats not the case, there must be an appointed administrator.
else i could leave my house to my kids, and nobody could do anything, they would have complete say in who enters the house, since they OWN it. If they cannot control it, they do not own it.

CSACANNONEER
07-09-2011, 9:24 PM
ok,
riddle me this
If you GIVE a rifle to your 16 year old son/daughter
and tehy go and shoot someone with said rifle

who is going to jail?

the person that pulled the trigger, AND the owner of the rifle is of course
owner=person/entity responsible for said property

tell me i'm wrong on that

You're right. Both the minor and the owner of the rifle (also the minor) will go to jail.

additionally
once he turns 18, does he have to register it?
if the answer is yes, that blows the ownership part out of the water as there would be no reason to register something that is legally already yours.
if you dont have to register it, that makes things a bit diff. (which is what i want to identify, as an 80% must be completed with your own hands, i want to make sure that a 16 year old has the legal capacity to perform that function, else I'm afraid it would not comply with being built by ones self)

its referenced here, that the law does not agree with me, yet i have no found where it specifically does not agree. theres reference to lots of other thing, but not firearms.

There is absolutely nothing that states a minor can have actual ownership of anything.
what would be the purpose of trusts, in the event of death, having a trust/guardianship, if the money/trust is theirs, they would have complete control and could do with it as they please, yet, thats not the case, there must be an appointed administrator.
else i could leave my house to my kids, and nobody could do anything, they would have complete say in who enters the house, since they OWN it. If they cannot control it, they do not own it.

There is no "registration" for long guns except for RAWs, 50BMGs and VOLUNTARY registration. So, there is no need for him/her to register it when they turn 3, 6, 16, 18, 21, 25 or even 92 years old. If you need proof that a minor can legally own a highly regulated piece of property, go look at the pink slip of vehicles which minors actually own.

Tripper
07-09-2011, 9:39 PM
exactly
show me a pink slip with a minors name as the only owner.
not the hawaiian pdf version either

and,

(b) (1) Except as provided in subdivision (c), a person commits
the crime of "criminal storage of a firearm of the first degree" if
he or she keeps any loaded firearm within any premises that are under
his or her custody or control and he or she knows or reasonably
should know that a child is likely to gain access to the firearm
without the permission of the child's parent or legal guardian and
the child obtains access to the firearm and thereby causes death or
great bodily injury to himself, herself, or any other person.
(2) Except as provided in subdivision (c), a person commits the
crime of "criminal storage of a firearm of the second degree" if he
or she keeps any loaded firearm within any premises that are under
his or her custody or control and he or she knows or reasonably
should know that a child is likely to gain access to the firearm
without the permission of the child's parent or legal guardian and
the child obtains access to the firearm and thereby causes injury,
other than great bodily injury, to himself, herself, or any other
person, or carries the firearm either to a public place or in
...........
Criminal storage of a firearm is punishable as follows:
(1) Criminal storage of a firearm in the first degree, by
imprisonment in the state prison for 16 months, or two or three
years, by a fine not exceeding ten thousand dollars ($10,000), or by
both that imprisonment and fine; or by imprisonment in a county jail
not exceeding one year, by a fine not exceeding one thousand dollars
($1,000), or by both that fine and imprisonment.
(2) Criminal storage of a firearm in the second degree, by
imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year, by a fine not
exceeding one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both that imprisonment
and fine.
................

looks like a parent is liable there
again, liable=ownership

In your version, only the minor goes to jail, so, once the case is adjudicated, the owner can go and claim the firearm, the firearm will only be released to the owner, that person would be an adult, not a minor, therefore minor does not own firearm.

Tripper
07-09-2011, 9:42 PM
i really think if you play out an entire scenario, inside the realms of law enforcement and the state of CA, you'll ultimately agree with the idea here.

yes of course, a kid owns the xbox, and may even morally own the rifle i gave him when he was 2, but does he really own that rifle in the eyes of the law or law enforcement.

I'm really hoping to be proven wrong here, but i mean proven wrong, not just told i'm wrong.

and am i really expected to go to the DA and say, well show me the law that says i can breathe.

I have 2 kids under 18, that I would LOVE to be able to have them build their own, I just dont want to unknown\ingly become a felon by doing it, or create instant felons at 18, for unlawfully acquiring rifles.

Mssr. Eleganté
07-10-2011, 12:53 AM
...I'm really hoping to be proven wrong here, but i mean proven wrong, not just told i'm wrong.

We already proved you wrong.

...and am i really expected to go to the DA and say, well show me the law that says i can breathe.

Yes. You seem to be saying that things are only legal if there is a law that says they are legal. Laws don't work that way. Laws say what is not legal. The DA can't show you a law that says it is legal for you to breath just like we can't show you a law that says "it is legal for a 2 year old to own a gun."

CSACANNONEER
07-10-2011, 6:44 AM
and am i really expected to go to the DA and say, well show me the law that says i can breathe.


Of course you are. If you feel that things are only legal if the law expressly says they are then, YES! you need to prove that you have the legal right to breathe. Until then, you should be a good subject and hold your breath.

As far as YOUR minor children owning firearms, you need to do what you as a parent feels in appropriate for your children. My father was a federal LEO for +30 years and has many more years of local reserve and private armed security experience. He gave me my first firearm the day I turned 12. If we had lived in a more rural area, I'm sure I wouldn't have had to wait so long. He did store it with his firearms but, legally, it was mine. It seems that you are confusing the actually ownership of personal property with a parents right to control a minor child's access to said property.


exactly
show me a pink slip with a minors name as the only owner.
not the hawaiian pdf version either

and,

(b) (1) Except as provided in subdivision (c), a person commits
the crime of "criminal storage of a firearm of the first degree" if
he or she keeps any loaded firearm within any premises that are under
his or her custody or control and he or she knows or reasonably
should know that a child is likely to gain access to the firearm
without the permission of the child's parent or legal guardian and
the child obtains access to the firearm and thereby causes death or
great bodily injury to himself, herself, or any other person.
(2) Except as provided in subdivision (c), a person commits the
crime of "criminal storage of a firearm of the second degree" if he
or she keeps any loaded firearm within any premises that are under
his or her custody or control and he or she knows or reasonably
should know that a child is likely to gain access to the firearm
without the permission of the child's parent or legal guardian and
the child obtains access to the firearm and thereby causes injury,
other than great bodily injury, to himself, herself, or any other
person, or carries the firearm either to a public place or in
...........
Criminal storage of a firearm is punishable as follows:
(1) Criminal storage of a firearm in the first degree, by
imprisonment in the state prison for 16 months, or two or three
years, by a fine not exceeding ten thousand dollars ($10,000), or by
both that imprisonment and fine; or by imprisonment in a county jail
not exceeding one year, by a fine not exceeding one thousand dollars
($1,000), or by both that fine and imprisonment.
(2) Criminal storage of a firearm in the second degree, by
imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year, by a fine not
exceeding one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both that imprisonment
and fine.
................

looks like a parent is liable there
again, liable=ownership

In your version, only the minor goes to jail, so, once the case is adjudicated, the owner can go and claim the firearm, the firearm will only be released to the owner, that person would be an adult, not a minor, therefore minor does not own firearm.

Criminal storage of a firearm is a crime but, it has NOTHING to do with OWNERSHIP of said firearm. That is why, I did not bother to cite it. It also only refers to "loaded firearms" accessed without permission.

As far as pink slips go, there are plenty of pinks out there which were issued only in the name of the minor who has bought and paid for a vehicle. In fact, there are also deeds floating around which show that a minor is/was the sole owner of real property at the time the deed was issued. There are trusts which own both real and personal properties. Some of the trusts are in the names of minors too. Using your arguement that a minor can not own anything or even enter into a contract would make it illegal for a minor to put a penny in a gumball machine and receive a gumball in exchange. Because, he/she would be entering into a contract by putting the coin in the machine with the expectation of receiving something in exchange. If fact, if we use your extremely flawed logic, no one under 18 could purchase any item from anyone else, ever. Since even our government run school system has programs marketing and selling food, clothing, school supplies, etc. to minors, I contend that it is legal for minors to enter into a variety of legal contracts and their ownership of properties due to thesse contracts is legal. Or, are you telling us that there is a gubmit conspiracy afloat which will someday try to reclaim every gumball, pint of milk, school tee shirt and pencil that a minor has ever purchased?

BTW, are you still holding your breath? Or, did you find the law which allows you to breathe?