PDA

View Full Version : Why is lying not chargeable under CPC 148?


locosway
07-05-2011, 3:57 PM
From the reading it seems like obstruction is not lying, however someone is arguing that you can be charged with 148, and people have been for simply lying to a LEO. However, I've seen it posted many times that it is not illegal to lie to a local LEO.

148. (a) (1) Every person who willfully resists, delays, or
obstructs any public officer, peace officer, or an emergency medical
technician, as defined in Division 2.5 (commencing with Section 1797)
of the Health and Safety Code, in the discharge or attempt to
discharge any duty of his or her office or employment, when no other
punishment is prescribed, shall be punished by a fine not exceeding
one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by imprisonment in a county jail
not to exceed one year, or by both that fine and imprisonment.

Sniper3142
07-05-2011, 4:23 PM
It is not a crime to lie to a cop (city, county, or state).

It is a crime to lie to a Federal officer.

I beleive there are some cops who'll use the threat of arrest under PC 148 to try and intimidate citizens. One great method to avoid that is to answer the first question with a specific question...

Officer: "Are there any weapons or drugs in this vehicle?"

Citizen: "Are you investigating a crime?"

If they answer "no", then PC 148 is out the window since it only matters during a criminal investigation.

Of course, you'll still get the thugs who say they lied to you (which they'll proudly state is legal) about there being an investigation and still threaten you with PC 148.

and if the cops answer yes, then tell him or her that you'd like more details about their investigation and that without said details, you can't really volunteer any information. In other words, tell them you'll be using the 5th Ammendment until you have a chance to speak to a Lawyer friend for advice.

I usually avoid the question (pretend I didn't hear it) and ask them about the weather, sports, or why they think Obama is a great president. ;)

CHS
07-05-2011, 4:43 PM
There is certainly some 5th amendment protection, but on top of that when a LEO asks you a random fishing question that has nothing to do with the stop in which you two are engaged in, he's not inside the scope of his duties nor is he investigating a crime. When you lie in this case, there is no obstruction.

hoffmang
07-05-2011, 4:45 PM
Because lying is protected 1A speech in some cases - like talking to a police officer.

-Gene

jeep7081
07-05-2011, 4:53 PM
It is not a crime to lie to a cop (city, county, or state).

It is a crime to lie to a Federal officer.

I beleive there are some cops who'll use the threat of arrest under PC 148 to try and intimidate citizens. One great method to avoid that is to answer the first question with a specific question...

Officer: "Are there any weapons or drugs in this vehicle?"

Citizen: "Are you investigating a crime?"

If they answer "no", then PC 148 is out the window since it only matters during a criminal investigation.

Of course, you'll still get the thugs who say they lied to you (which they'll proudly state is legal) about there being an investigation and still threaten you with PC 148.

and if the cops answer yes, then tell him or her that you'd like more details about their investigation and that without said details, you can't really volunteer any information. In other words, tell them you'll be using the 5th Ammendment until you have a chance to speak to a Lawyer friend for advice.

I usually avoid the question (pretend I didn't hear it) and ask them about the weather, sports, or why they think Obama is a great president. ;)

Can you say lying is delaying?

148. (a) (1) Every person who willfully resists, delays, or
obstructs any public officer, peace officer, or an emergency medical
technician, as defined in Division 2.5 (commencing with Section 1797)
of the Health and Safety Code, in the discharge or attempt to
discharge any duty of his or her office or employment, when no other
punishment is prescribed, shall be punished by a fine not exceeding
one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by imprisonment in a county jail
not to exceed one year, or by both that fine and imprisonment.

Smoothshifter41
07-05-2011, 4:58 PM
Dont Talk to Police (http://youtu.be/6wXkI4t7nuc)
Problem solved.

curtisfong
07-05-2011, 5:06 PM
Can you say lying is delaying?

148. (a) (1) Every person who willfully resists, delays, or
obstructs any public officer, peace officer, or an emergency medical
technician, as defined in Division 2.5 (commencing with Section 1797)
of the Health and Safety Code, in the discharge or attempt to
discharge any duty of his or her office or employment, when no other
punishment is prescribed, shall be punished by a fine not exceeding
one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by imprisonment in a county jail
not to exceed one year, or by both that fine and imprisonment.

I would hope not, because that would mean silence is also delaying.

jeep7081
07-05-2011, 5:11 PM
I would hope not, because that would mean silence is also delaying.

Silence is protected by the 5th amendment

curtisfong
07-05-2011, 5:14 PM
The 5th amendment doesn't say anything about silence or lying.

No person shall .. be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself

jeep7081
07-05-2011, 5:46 PM
The 5th amendment doesn't say anything about silence or lying.

The Fifth Amendment protects witnesses from being forced to incriminate themselves. To "plead the Fifth" is to refuse to answer a question because the response could provide self-incriminating evidence of an illegal act punishable by fines, penalties or forfeiture.

The Supreme Court has held that "a witness may have a reasonable fear of prosecution and yet be innocent of any wrongdoing. The privilege serves to protect the innocent who otherwise might be ensnared by ambiguous circumstances

You can split hairs to entertain yourself. But, that's the silent treatment. ;)

duggan
07-05-2011, 5:52 PM
If you are pulled over for a traffic violation and the cop doesn't want to be "delayed" then he should get on with writing a ticket or cutting you loose with a warning and keep his pfishing expedition for those dumb enough to answer his questions. Silence is golden!

taperxz
07-05-2011, 6:04 PM
I think its safe to say we have a person here who is in the academy and now quantifies himself as a lawyer.

hornswaggled
07-05-2011, 6:12 PM
And yet, cops are perfectly okay with lying to a suspect during an interrogation to elicit a confession. "Sir, your buddy already told us the whole story. Get out in front of this thing, we'll recommend they go easy on you. We have witnesses. We have a whole box full of evidence..."

Funny how that works huh?

scarville
07-05-2011, 6:20 PM
Because lying is protected 1A speech in some cases - like talking to a police officer.

-Gene
So why is it not protected when talking to Federal cops?

diginit
07-05-2011, 7:24 PM
I believe that if you lie to an an officer during an criminal investigation, Giving them misleading information to support the crime committed or criminal involved because they are a friend or family. You can be charged with obstruction of Justice. Like refusing to testify when served... The 5th only eliminates self incrimination. But I'm not a lawyer. In your own defense, Saying nothing is better than lying because that statement can and will be used against you. If you are not a suspect, Then tell the LEO exactly what happened so they can bust the jerk...IMHO...

Bruce
07-05-2011, 7:50 PM
Because lying is protected 1A speech in some cases - like talking to a police officer.

-Gene

And not protected in others:

148.9. (a) Any person who falsely represents or identifies himself
or herself as another person or as a fictitious person to any peace
officer listed in Section 830.1 or 830.2, or subdivision (a) of
Section 830.33, upon a lawful detention or arrest of the person,
either to evade the process of the court, or to evade the proper
identification of the person by the investigating officer is guilty
of a misdemeanor.
(b) Any person who falsely represents or identifies himself or
herself as another person or as a fictitious person to any other
peace officer defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of
Title 3 of Part 2, upon lawful detention or arrest of the person,
either to evade the process of the court, or to evade the proper
identification of the person by the arresting officer is guilty of a
misdemeanor if (1) the false information is given while the peace
officer is engaged in the performance of his or her duties as a peace
officer and (2) the person providing the false information knows or
should have known that the person receiving the information is a
peace officer.

hoffmang
07-05-2011, 7:55 PM
So why is it not protected when talking to Federal cops?

Because some species of fraudulent speech are not protected.

-Gene

VW*Mike
07-05-2011, 9:16 PM
Lying sure worked for Casey Anthony............................ and they found her guilty of it, carrying a sentence of up to 1 year each.

jeep7081
07-05-2011, 9:35 PM
Lying sure worked for Casey Anthony............................ and they found her guilty of it, carrying a sentence of up to 1 year each.

She got off easy! But, that's for another thread...:threadjacked:

Patrick Aherne
07-05-2011, 9:54 PM
The question involves California law, not Florida nor Federal law. I am not a lawyer, but I have never seen someone charged with 148 PC for lying to the police.

The Shadow
07-05-2011, 9:59 PM
You won't be charged with a crime, but if you do lie, and the cops figure it out, they will certainly use it to solidify their case, if they have one. The best thing is to lie if you have nothing else to worry about, and shut up if you are guilty of something.

Sniper3142
07-05-2011, 10:02 PM
If you are not a suspect, Then tell the LEO exactly what happened so they can bust the jerk...IMHO...

Or better yet... SAY NOTHING.

Telling them anything, even if you aren't the "suspect" might land you in a world of legal trouble. Even if you aren't the "suspect" answering questions or even giving a statement might make you one of their targets.

Theseus
07-06-2011, 12:08 AM
Even as a witness, you should probably strive to talk only with a lawyer present.

curtisfong
07-06-2011, 11:38 AM
The Fifth Amendment protects witnesses from being forced to incriminate themselves. To "plead the Fifth" is to refuse to answer a question because the response could provide self-incriminating evidence of an illegal act punishable by fines, penalties or forfeiture.

The Supreme Court has held that "a witness may have a reasonable fear of prosecution and yet be innocent of any wrongdoing. The privilege serves to protect the innocent who otherwise might be ensnared by ambiguous circumstances

You can split hairs to entertain yourself. But, that's the silent treatment. ;)

IMO lying to cops is (generally) legal for those exact same reasons. I would go further - I believe all lying should be legal unless you are under oath. I realize the law says different (see also lying to the feds, and the other various exceptions); but I strongly believe those laws are not constitutional.

I understand you feel differently. That's your opinion. I will never be able to convince you otherwise, but that is not my intent.

diginit
07-07-2011, 8:17 PM
Or better yet... SAY NOTHING.

Telling them anything, even if you aren't the "suspect" might land you in a world of legal trouble. Even if you aren't the "suspect" answering questions or even giving a statement might make you one of their targets.

Can you please ellaborate? If I am a witness to violent crime and tell LE what I saw, How can I be laible in any way unless I am actually involved, the criminal gets out on bail and attacks me, Forcing me to harm him in SD or I intervein during the crime like the BART police and shoot the SOB...
It seems to me that silence of a creditable witness is the reason so many crooks are still on the streets. Fear of reprisal. In which case, I would feel no better than the person commiting the crime simply because I allowed them to get away with it. And now they are free to do it again. Possibly to someone that you or I care about.

Sniper3142
07-07-2011, 9:44 PM
Can you please ellaborate? If I am a witness to violent crime and tell LE what I saw, How can I be laible in any way unless I am actually involved...

It all depends...

Say you gave you friend a ride to work. You later learn that he was fired a couple of days before that, returned to work (via your help), and assaulted/robbed/killed some of his former co-workers. The police ask you about his demeaner and attitude during the trip and you tell them he seemed normal. Later he kills himself before the cops can arrest him.

But wait... one of his co-workers was the child/neice/nephew/friend/ of someone in a high political office. Suddenly the cops and DA feel the need for someone to be punished for this horrible crime. But who is left?!?

Hmmm...

They ask you again if you were totally unaware of what he had planned...

:(

Stranger and worse things have happen in REAL LIFE. Just because you think you're innocent doesn't mean they won't put you in a cell.

diginit
07-09-2011, 9:19 PM
Seems pretty unlikely to me... They would have to prove intent. Any not so good lawyer could defend against this, Even a Public Defender would win. No offence intended, But I want facts. Not heresay or opinion.

vantec08
07-10-2011, 7:39 AM
Or better yet... SAY NOTHING.

Telling them anything, even if you aren't the "suspect" might land you in a world of legal trouble. Even if you aren't the "suspect" answering questions or even giving a statement might make you one of their targets.

We have a winner. ANY discussion with police involves them trying to establish the much vaunted Probable Cause so they can proceed to the next level. In fact, they are trained and encouraged to lie to you, to con you.

compulsivegunbuyer
07-10-2011, 8:10 AM
Anything you say can and will be used againt you. Here is my licence, registration, and I do not wish to answer any of your questions. While it would not bother me at all to lie to the police, since they lie to people all the time, it's better to just say nothing. They can be as abusive and intimidating as they want, but I have nothing to say. No small talk, nothing. I refuse to be part of their ego driven fishing expedition. How many less people would be in jail if they just shut their mouths?

Maestro Pistolero
07-10-2011, 8:43 AM
Why was Casey Anthony convicted of it then? Perhaps a difference in state law? I think her charge was providing false information to police.

Kid Stanislaus
07-10-2011, 10:01 AM
Why was Casey Anthony convicted of it then? Perhaps a difference in state law? I think her charge was providing false information to police.

I was think'n the same thing. Yeah, in some states its a violation of the law.

yellowfin
07-10-2011, 10:09 AM
I just wish it was illegal for LE to lie and such law heavily and brutally enforced.

Maestro Pistolero
07-10-2011, 10:18 AM
Lying is a primary, fundamental tool of investigators and interrogators. It is extensively taught in great detail as a means to extract confessions, get information, psychological manipulation, and a host of other purposes. As a fundamental LE tool, it isn't going anywhere.

Dr.Lou
07-10-2011, 10:25 AM
Try 148.5, making a false report; and 148.9, giving false identity.

bwiese
07-10-2011, 11:00 AM
I would hope not, because that would mean silence is also delaying.

As a separate issue in Federal matters, silence *can* be used against you, especially if it's contruable to misleading....

USC 1001 is a *****, the only useful, safe, acceptable answer is "see my lawyer"; do NOT insist on innocence, etc. Public denials of innocence (not directed at the US attorney, etc.) are also harmful.

Martha Stewart could have paid attention to this advice.

http://www.professorbainbridge.com/professorbainbridgecom/2004/03/after-martha-the-future-of-18-usc-1001-1.html

http://www.mail-archive.com/libertarian@yahoogroups.com/msg17094.html

http://www.bankersalmanac.com/addcon/news/Lawyers-offer-1001-reasons-to-not-lie-to-regulators.aspx

hossb7
07-10-2011, 12:24 PM
Stranger and worse things have happen in REAL LIFE.

can you cite some examples?

hossb7
07-10-2011, 12:29 PM
And yet, cops are perfectly okay with lying to a suspect during an interrogation to elicit a confession. "Sir, your buddy already told us the whole story. Get out in front of this thing, we'll recommend they go easy on you. We have witnesses. We have a whole box full of evidence..."

Funny how that works huh?

We have a winner. ANY discussion with police involves them trying to establish the much vaunted Probable Cause so they can proceed to the next level. In fact, they are trained and encouraged to lie to you, to con you.

I just wish it was illegal for LE to lie and such law heavily and brutally enforced.

for a custodial interrogation to occur, you have to have been read your miranda rights.

only YOU know if you're innocent or not, and regardless of what law enforcement tells you about your buddy or another lie to illicit an incriminating response, he's already TOLD you that you a) have the right to remain silent and b) have the right to have an attorney present while being questioned.


so, being the super-duper smart calgunners that i KNOW you all are (with regards to the law, lying to the police, etc :rolleyes: ) why havent you exercised your rights in these hypothetical situations?

hawk81
07-10-2011, 1:14 PM
If cops can lie to me than I can lie to cops. But I would prefer to just exercise my right to remain silent.

Wall Flower
07-10-2011, 2:28 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Saigon1965
07-10-2011, 3:00 PM
We can add politicians to it -

I just wish it was illegal for LE to lie and such law heavily and brutally enforced.


I still don't get why we're spending millions to prosecute Bonds and now Clemens - Who cares if they want to take steroids -