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View Full Version : NY Times: Firearms Bureau Finds Itself in a Rough Patch


ipser
07-05-2011, 8:16 AM
Today, the bureau is again under scrutiny, this time over a gun-trafficking investigation in which federal agents knowingly let weapons slip across the Mexican border; two later turned up in Arizona, where an American Border Patrol agent was killed in a shootout. Congress and the Justice Department are investigating; President Obama vowed last week to take “appropriate actions” when the facts come out.

The fracas over the operation, called Fast and Furious, could cost another A.T.F. official — Kenneth E. Melson, the acting director — his job. But it has also renewed long-simmering questions about whether the bureau — hobbled by the volatile gun politics of Washington, a lack of permanent leadership and its own missteps — should even continue to exist.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/05/us/politics/05guns.html

MolonLabe2008
07-05-2011, 8:18 AM
It goes all the way to the top.

Impeach Obama now!

Glock22Fan
07-05-2011, 8:24 AM
Please change the thread header from "NT Times" to "NY Times."

Had me scratching my head trying to work out where "NT" is.

Thanks

John

Bhobbs
07-05-2011, 8:26 AM
The fracas over the operation, called Fast and Furious, could cost another A.T.F. official — Kenneth E. Melson, the acting director — his job. But it has also renewed long-simmering questions about whether the bureau — hobbled by the volatile gun politics of Washington, a lack of permanent leadership and its own missteps — should even continue to exist.

I like this part.

Goosebrown
07-05-2011, 8:34 AM
I have to agree with the end of the article that the NRA will benefit from a weak but alive BATFE. There is a lot that needs to be done that the BATFE does. However if they are dying and they have to become a part of the FBI, that is a much harder battle to fight for us on the 2A side.

Bhobbs
07-05-2011, 9:01 AM
I have to agree with the end of the article that the NRA will benefit from a weak but alive BATFE. There is a lot that needs to be done that the BATFE does. However if they are dying and they have to become a part of the FBI, that is a much harder battle to fight for us on the 2A side.

How will the NRA benefit?

Coded-Dude
07-05-2011, 9:03 AM
this is such old news here.......

JDoe
07-05-2011, 9:59 AM
this is such old news here.......

But it could be new to some...

ccmc
07-05-2011, 10:02 AM
But it could be new to some...

It's new that the NY Times has finally noticed the issue although the story was predictably slanted toward the Elijah Cummings of the world POV.

jdberger
07-05-2011, 10:16 AM
It's new that the NY Times has finally noticed the issue although the story was predictably slanted toward the Elijah Cummings of the world POV.

Amazing that they finally noticed. I think that you're right - they had to wait until the antis had formulated a riposte to the allegations.

Sutcliffe
07-05-2011, 10:26 AM
One man's 'volatile gun politics' is the rest of ours Bill of Rights.

CHS
07-05-2011, 1:27 PM
The ATF needs to be returned back to a tax and regulatory agency and nothing more.

They should NEVER have been allowed to become a law enforcement agency.

Their job us SUPPOSED to be issuing federal firearms licenses, alcohol license, explosives licenses, collecting excise taxes, etc.

Instead they are now literally trafficking firearms into Mexico.

MolonLabe2008
07-05-2011, 1:37 PM
The ATF needs to be returned back to a tax and regulatory agency and nothing more.

They should NEVER have been allowed to become a law enforcement agency.

Their job us SUPPOSED to be issuing federal firearms licenses, alcohol license, explosives licenses, collecting excise taxes, etc.

Instead they are now literally trafficking firearms into Mexico.

The BATF should be abolished altogether.

CHS
07-05-2011, 1:54 PM
The BATF should be abolished altogether.

I disagree, to a point.

There SHOULD be a regulatory agency charged with issuing permits and ensuring compliance with firearms sales, alcohol, tobacco, explosives, etc.

It can be called the BATFE or the ATF.

They, however, should have ZERO law enforcement duties or responsibilities. PERIOD. When criminal investigations are required on dirty gun dealers or straw sales, etc, the FBI and/or local law enforcement should get involved.

The problem with the ATF is that they have turned from a regulatory agency into a law enforcement agency. It's clearly causing massive problems.

yellowfin
07-05-2011, 2:12 PM
They should also have ZERO ability to make regulations and interpretations that carry weight of law. For decades they have assumed for themselves the power to legislate from the clipboard totally without accountability.

CCWFacts
07-05-2011, 2:19 PM
It would not be good for the BATF to be dissolved. If they dissolve it, it means that it would be (mostly) absorbed by the FBI. I would much rather fight a weak and incompetent BATF than the strong and capable FBI over gun rights issues. The FBI doesn't lose very often.

PsychGuy274
07-05-2011, 2:26 PM
They should also have ZERO ability to make regulations and interpretations that carry weight of law. For decades they have assumed for themselves the power to legislate from the clipboard totally without accountability.

THIS

CHS
07-05-2011, 2:58 PM
They should also have ZERO ability to make regulations and interpretations that carry weight of law. For decades they have assumed for themselves the power to legislate from the clipboard totally without accountability.

100% agreed.

FastFinger
07-05-2011, 4:11 PM
The enemy you know...

Liberty1
07-05-2011, 4:33 PM
Let them license lemonade stands. GCA '34, '68, & ' 86 should go into the dustbin of failed prohibitionist schemes!

GOEX FFF
07-05-2011, 4:34 PM
It's new that the NY Times has finally noticed the issue although the story was predictably slanted toward the Elijah Cummings of the world POV.

Amazing that they finally noticed. I think that you're right - they had to wait until the antis had formulated a riposte to the allegations.


Precisely! Even the bRaDy's waited to see how they could spin it to their advantage to even begin talking about F&F. Now they're boasting to blame everyone, except those actually responsible.....:mad: :rolleyes:

advocatusdiaboli
07-05-2011, 4:49 PM
One man's 'volatile gun politics' is the rest of ours Bill of Rights.

Indeed. To people who believe in the overall benefit of full state control, the 2A, indeed all of the Bill of Rights, is simply politics. They don't exercise their rights and have no use for them—they think. One day they'll wish they'd paid more attention.

kcbrown
07-05-2011, 4:53 PM
They should also have ZERO ability to make regulations and interpretations that carry weight of law. For decades they have assumed for themselves the power to legislate from the clipboard totally without accountability.

The Constitution does not give Congress the power to delegate its authority. If a given power is not explicitly given to the government by the Constitution, then the government does not legitimately have the power in question.

That means no Federal bureau should be allowed to create rules that the citizenry must adhere to -- that is a power strictly reserved to the Congress.

It's fine for any bureau to create rules and regulations that its people must follow, but that is the extent of what is allowable under the text of the Constitution.


The ATF is but one example of a government entity that is operating outside the law set forth by the Constitution.


IMHO, YMMV, etc., etc. Evidence to the contrary welcome, as usual.

MKE
07-05-2011, 5:32 PM
They should also have ZERO ability to make regulations and interpretations that carry weight of law. For decades they have assumed for themselves the power to legislate from the clipboard totally without accountability.

+1! And since this department falls under Holder's watch, he ultimately should be held accountable. Circumventing written law should never be an excuse by the government.