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Danz la Nuit
07-04-2011, 11:39 PM
Interested in a semi auto shotgun...

I know nothing about them... I just know my pumpshotty...

Where should I start reading & comparing?

j.primo
07-04-2011, 11:40 PM
SAIGA 12

Danz la Nuit
07-04-2011, 11:51 PM
SAIGA 12

Why saiga 12 vs others?

Is this the model you're talking about?

http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/data/default/images/catalog/large/CASAIGA12.jpg (http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/storeproduct774.aspx)

PANTyRAiD
07-04-2011, 11:58 PM
NO!!! This is the model he is talking about!

http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/2839/dsc00837bw.jpg

Now imagine it with a 20 round drum, a folding stock, and an 8 inch barrel...Now you are in shotgun heaven...

(you just have to move to AZ to wallow in it)

sephy
07-05-2011, 12:08 AM
Of course on here if you ask about a rifle you get an AR, ask about a shotgun you get a Saiga haha. If you're into more of a classic style, look into the Remington 1100 or 11-87. I've heard there were some teething problems with the 11-87's when they first came out but those have been resolved.

You could also look at Winchester, Beretta, and Benelli. I just happen to be a fan of Remington :)

Excelsior
07-05-2011, 12:19 AM
NO!!! This is the model he is talking about!

http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/2839/dsc00837bw.jpg

Now imagine it with a 20 round drum, a folding stock, and an 8 inch barrel...Now you are in shotgun heaven...

(you just have to move to AZ to wallow in it)

Not just one but TWO pistol grips with a folding stock and flashlight and you want to add "a 20 round drum, a folding stock, and an 8 inch barrel."

You'd be laughed at if you showed-up at my local 3-Gun competition. You'd also get smoked by people shooting fairly stock 870's with extended mag tubes.

Excelsior
07-05-2011, 12:23 AM
BTW, the Saiga is soon be be obsolete: http://www.akdalarms.com/mka.html

PANTyRAiD
07-05-2011, 12:34 AM
Meh well see. I wont say till I see some test fires and reliability results.

Might be complete ****...might be the ducks waddle, like I said, well see.

I will probably get one either way, but I think my saiga will always have a special place in my heart.

j.primo
07-05-2011, 12:35 AM
Shotgun on an AK platform = tough. Remington 1100's have a great track record as well. With the Remington, you can use it at the clay pits and it's more versatile semi auto. With the saiga, it's bad*****, but the uses are limited.. You also got the new Keltec sg's, but I haven't been keeping up with that one. Throw in the google search bar and see if it sparks your interests.

PANTyRAiD
07-05-2011, 12:41 AM
Not just one but TWO pistol grips with a folding stock and flashlight and you want to add "a 20 round drum, a folding stock, and an 8 inch barrel."

You'd be laughed at if you showed-up at my local 3-Gun competition. You'd also get smoked by people shooting fairly stock 870's with extended mag tubes.

BTW thats not my saiga. I found it on the interweb. And you have no idea how well or not well I shoot period, so dont judge me. Its not something your Jesus would do.


If you dont think the Saiga platform is a strong contender in competitions such as 3 gun and the like, then I advice you to watch these videos.

ulBn-PVq-AQ

FziECY1mSaY

Keep talking **** if you want, but deep down inside you know the S12 is a bad mamba jamba...

nimbus
07-05-2011, 1:02 AM
Awesome vids! Don't Saiga 12s have to be bullet buttoned in CA?

patriot_man
07-05-2011, 3:06 AM
Drink the Benelli kool aid. :p

But yes a Saiga is a very good choice and will probably run better than a Benelli M4... until the M4 is broken in. :43:

prc77
07-05-2011, 4:41 AM
Awesome vids! Don't Saiga 12s have to be bullet buttoned in CA?

yes it does

prc77
07-05-2011, 4:52 AM
DTOM
What do you want to do with the shotgun??,, HD, clay games, 3gun, What's your budget$$.

Mossberg 930

FN SLP

Benneli M1, M2 & M4

Remington 1100 11-87

Saiga 12

compulsivegunbuyer
07-05-2011, 7:42 AM
I would buy a Saiga 12, but not for the $700+ that I've seen them going for. The AK is a semi crude cheap to manufacture weapon that's simple and reliable. That's the beauty of the thing. The thing can't cost more than $100 to manufacture. The $700 price tag defeats the whole purpose.

BigDogatPlay
07-05-2011, 9:54 AM
I'd echo prc77, a lot of it is what you intend to use the gun for and how much you want to spend.

Basic all around entry level gun that will run good out of the box... I'd go with a Mossberg 930. You pay a significantly higher price for an 1100 or an 11-87, at least for one new in the box, but they are both gold standard and can be had for good prices and in good shape off used racks.

The FN SLP and Benneli guns are, to my thinking, more refined to single purposes.

The Saigas are neat and all, but in California they require a bullet button and you don't gain that much in mag capacity over a tube fed semi-auto. This is particularly true of an 1100 or 11-87 with a 22 or 24 inch barrel and the mag tube extended out flush.

My opinions only, YMMV.

HighLander51
07-05-2011, 10:27 AM
compulsivegunbuyer I would buy a Saiga 12, but not for the $700+

Except to get them to run, like R&R's in 3 gun, they cost alot more than that, starting at $2,500 and up.

Benelli M1-M4, but especially 1st gen M1 Super 90s

chaseface
07-05-2011, 10:41 AM
The Saigas are neat and all, but in California they require a bullet button and you don't gain that much in mag capacity over a tube fed semi-auto. This is particularly true of an 1100 or 11-87 with a 22 or 24 inch barrel and the mag tube extended out flush.

I agree with what your saying here but you also have to consider the fact that changing a 10 round shotgun mag with a bullet button takes a fraction of the time it would take to load 8 rounds through a tube fed shotty.

tacticalcity
07-05-2011, 10:45 AM
Best for self defense right off the shelf?

Benelli M4 or Remington 1100 Police with Improved Cylinder Barrels. I like 18" (18.5" usually) barrels as well. Those hallways close in real fast in real life.

If you need something affordable, the Mossberg 930 Series has an attractive price point. But it comes with a straight cylinder barrel. Improved cylinder would be better for a defensive weapon.

Before somebody says it, you don't want an adjustable screw-in choke solution. It ends up flying down range when you have to switch to slugs. Hunting is VERY different from self-defense. For self defense you need a pre-cut barrel that can give a nice neat pellet pattern beyond 25 yards (which is where straight cylinder barrels start to open up too much) and still handle rifled slugs. You won't have time in a firefight to change your choke. Just switching shell types as needed will be difficult enough.

If you are an AK guy, then you will love the Saigas. Not everyone is an AK guy. There are some design and functionality quirks that bug alot of us, myself included.

If you want something customized check out...

https://www.vangcomp.com/11-87_Police_Magnum.html

hcbr
07-05-2011, 1:58 PM
SX3 is my recommendation, along with Mossberg SPX and a remington 11-87 or a Benelli. You can also take a look at a stoeger 2000 as well.

BlackRain17
07-05-2011, 5:02 PM
Not just one but TWO pistol grips with a folding stock and flashlight and you want to add "a 20 round drum, a folding stock, and an 8 inch barrel."

You'd be laughed at if you showed-up at my local 3-Gun competition. You'd also get smoked by people shooting fairly stock 870's with extended mag tubes.

Now this is a funny statement. I like the way it looks...

mswanson223
07-05-2011, 5:50 PM
I wanted an Auto 12 until Keltec's K.S.G. came out.

NapaCountyShooter
07-05-2011, 6:19 PM
I just drossed a Mossberg 930 field/security combo with 18.5" and 28"VR barrels at my LGS. Ran me $600 OTD brand new. Pretty good deal on a gun that's gotten some good reviews. Time will tell.

Richard Erichsen
07-05-2011, 7:24 PM
Interested in a semi auto shotgun...

I know nothing about them... I just know my pumpshotty...

Where should I start reading & comparing?

DTOMSD,

Before a recommendation can be made, what did you want to use it for? Sporting semi-auto shotguns for upland game, or a casual shoot at the range (doing skeet, trap or sporting clays, all different by the way) are very different from what you'd use for HD or "tactical" chores.

There are a number of dual-use shotguns that come with two barrels, say one for hunting and one for HD, which might be a good compromise.

R

Richard Erichsen
07-05-2011, 7:28 PM
NO!!! This is the model he is talking about!

http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/2839/dsc00837bw.jpg

Now imagine it with a 20 round drum, a folding stock, and an 8 inch barrel...Now you are in shotgun heaven...

(you just have to move to AZ to wallow in it)

I'm not sure it's shotgun heaven per se. You'd be laughed off the range at a sporting clay shoot with one of those tacticool jobs, more importantly it would be a hell of a thing to hit clays with it, or take a goose out of the sky with it.

I see the Saiga 12 as "fun factor" shotguns for plinking, some HD uses, but definitely not a serious shotgun for multiple roles, it's too specialized to the military end of the spectrum.

R

bladerunner67
07-05-2011, 7:41 PM
Browning A5's are real nice auto shotguns. Just got mine out of the 10 day jail sentence. Haven't had time to shoot it, but I've shot others and they are real nice.

Dan in Silicon Valley

GunSafari
07-05-2011, 8:31 PM
benelli m4 or remington 1100 if you don't like the feel of a pistol grip on a shotgun


saiga is nice, but with the bullet button, no thanks

Beetle Bailey
07-05-2011, 9:51 PM
Depends on what you want to do with it ;)

For clays: Beretta 391

Home defense: Benelli M4

Mag dumps: Saiga 12

Hunting: dunno, but probably Benelli or Beretta

L84CABO
07-05-2011, 9:55 PM
benelli m4 or remington 1100 if you don't like the feel of a pistol grip on a shotgun



They do make a field stock for the M4 btw.

Excelsior
07-06-2011, 12:28 AM
BTW thats not my saiga. I found it on the interweb. And you have no idea how well or not well I shoot period, so dont judge me. Its not something your Jesus would do.

If you dont think the Saiga platform is a strong contender in competitions such as 3 gun and the like, then I advice you to watch these videos.

Keep talking **** if you want, but deep down inside you know the S12 is a bad mamba jamba...

I didn't comment on how well you shoot unrelated to that monstrosity you pictured. I said you would be laughed at if you pulled that thing out of a case at the local 3-Gun competition and that you would get smoked (if you were shooting that thing.)

I never said the Saiga was not a great platform. I think the one is pictured is laughable though. Embarrassing actually. That said why don't you read what a bona-fide Saiga expert (perhaps the #1 Saiga expert around) like Tony Rumore has to say about the AKDAL Arms MKA-1919 AR-15 http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=129382

And stop cussing. It makes you look even more silly.

Excelsior
07-06-2011, 12:32 AM
I would buy a Saiga 12, but not for the $700+ that I've seen them going for. The AK is a semi crude cheap to manufacture weapon that's simple and reliable. That's the beauty of the thing. The thing can't cost more than $100 to manufacture. The $700 price tag defeats the whole purpose.
I remember I looked one time and they were $299 on Gunbroker.com. $249 for the .410 This was less than a year ago. In a matter of weeks they shot through the roof...

Excelsior
07-06-2011, 12:36 AM
I'm not sure it's shotgun heaven per se. You'd be laughed off the range at a sporting clay shoot with one of those tacticool jobs, more importantly it would be a hell of a thing to hit clays with it, or take a goose out of the sky with it.

I see the Saiga 12 as "fun factor" shotguns for plinking, some HD uses, but definitely not a serious shotgun for multiple roles, it's too specialized to the military end of the spectrum.

R
I see the Saiga 12 as being a good/cheap 3-Gun shotgun until the AKDAL Arms MKA-1919 AR-15 gets sorted out. Eventually both will send Benelli et. al. back to the CAD screen to design a removable mag-fed shotgun.

What I would really like to see is the entrepreneurial spirit here in the USA take hold of an "AR-based" shotgun (we can knock-off the MKA-1919 AR-15!) where people can piece together their own from domestically made parts...

Excelsior
07-06-2011, 12:39 AM
Browning A5's are real nice auto shotguns. Just got mine out of the 10 day jail sentence. Haven't had time to shoot it, but I've shot others and they are real nice.

Dan in Silicon Valley
Auto 5's (and the Remington and Savage variants) are VERY cool. As more than one expert has said, if Benelli came out the the Auto5 today, some people would be falling over themselves to purchase one.

Excelsior
07-06-2011, 12:42 AM
Depends on what you want to do with it ;)

For clays: Beretta 391

Home defense: Benelli M4

Mag dumps: Saiga 12

Hunting: dunno, but probably Benelli or Beretta

For clays: Browning Citori.

Home defense: Remington 870. Not sure why someone would spend the money on a gas gun like the M4 for home defense.

I don't do "mag dumps."

Hunting: (Geese/Duck) Browning Auto-5 magnum; (Pheasant, Quail and Pigeon) Browning Citori or the 870 with outfitted with another barrel.

PANTyRAiD
07-06-2011, 1:27 AM
I didn't comment on how well you shoot unrelated to that monstrosity you pictured. I said you would be laughed at if you pulled that thing out of a case at the local 3-Gun competition and that you would get smoked (if you were shooting that thing.)

I never said the Saiga was not a great platform. I think the one is pictured is laughable though. Embarrassing actually. That said why don't you read what a bona-fide Saiga expert (perhaps the #1 Saiga expert around) like Tony Rumore has to say about the AKDAL Arms MKA-1919 AR-15 http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=129382

And stop cussing. It makes you look even more silly.

Well of course I would be laughed at if I pulled that out at a 3 gun. Why in the world would you ASSume I would? Thats another thing your jesus would not be proud of...

That obviously is not a saiga built for 3 gun. Anyone with half a brain can see that. What that S12 is built for is pure home defense. Other then the muzzle break (which everyone one knows doesn't do squat on a scatter-gun), I don't personally see a problem with the way it looks. The flashlight is a necessity, if you dont agree then you must have night vision. The red dot is an added bonus and can greatly enhance speed and accuracy. The forgrip is to better control recoil, and give a easily accessible place for the pressure switch connected to the flashlight. Only thing I would change is to take off the break and add a 12 round promag drum.

What exactly is your problem with that shotgun, keeping in mind its designated role as a home defense weapon?

Dont tell me your one of those guys who thinks all AR's should be A2 style with plastic hand guards, are you?

Thats perfectly acceptable if you personally are a "bare bones" kind of gun owner. I have no problems with that. Its your gun and you should keep it the way you want it, and how you feel the most comfortable using it.

What I do have a problem with is your pushy attitude concerning the way other gun owners should keep their gun. Dont push your ideals onto others. Its unbecoming of you, and its the reason our 2a is under attack from libtards who have the same disrespectful and condescending consensus as yourself.

PS: I respect Tony and his opinion very much. So if he says its going to be good then I trust him. I had no idea the Akdal was already in the hands of American consumers. I thought it was still vaporware. However, like I said earlier, I will own one regardless. I never had anything against it in the first place, and I welcome any auto loading mag fed shotgun onto the market with open arms...Especially reliable ones.

PSS: It is not cussing unless the words actually print on the screen. Stars like this "****" dont count.

Excelsior
07-06-2011, 1:50 AM
Well of course I would be laughed at if I pulled that out at a 3 gun. Why in the world would you ASSume I would? Thats another thing your jesus would not be proud of...

That obviously is not a saiga built for 3 gun. Anyone with half a brain can see that. What that S12 is built for is pure home defense. Other then the muzzle break (which everyone one knows doesn't do squat on a scatter-gun), I don't personally see a problem with the way it looks. The flashlight is a necessity, if you dont agree then you must have night vision. The red dot is an added bonus and can greatly enhance speed and accuracy. The forgrip is to better control recoil, and give a easily accessible place for the pressure switch connected to the flashlight. Only thing I would change is to take off the break and add a 12 round promag drum.

What exactly is your problem with that shotgun, keeping in mind its designated role as a home defense weapon?

Dont tell me your one of those guys who thinks all AR's should be A2 style with plastic hand guards, are you?

Thats perfectly acceptable if you personally are a "bare bones" kind of gun owner. I have no problems with that. Its your gun and you should keep it the way you want it, and how you feel the most comfortable using it.

What I do have a problem with is your pushy attitude concerning the way other gun owners should keep their gun. Dont push your ideals onto others. Its unbecoming of you, and its the reason our 2a is under attack from libtards who have the same disrespectful and condescending consensus as yourself.

PS: I respect Tony and his opinion very much. So if he says its going to be good then I trust him. I had no idea the Akdal was already in the hands of American consumers. I thought it was still vaporware. However, like I said earlier, I will own one regardless. I never had anything against it in the first place, and I welcome any auto loading mag fed shotgun onto the market with open arms...Especially reliable ones.

PSS: It is not cussing unless the words actually print on the screen. Stars like this "****" dont count.
Are your parents aware that you're on the Internet in the middle of the night? Your opinion about the efficacy of a muzzle break (sic) on a shotgun is amusing -- as is your comment "The forgrip (sic) is to better control recoil." That's quite enough -- I won't comment on the rest that you typed. I know it's summer vacation for you but please stop stepping on yourself...

PANTyRAiD
07-06-2011, 3:24 AM
How I choose to spend my nights is certainly non of my parents concern since I am no longer living with them. I have a little thing I like to call "my own castle." Thanks for the laugh though! I also don't have a summer break, as I have not been in school for quite some time; however, that's exactly where I am about to take you, so buckle up sweet heart...

A muzzle break works by simple physics. Rule #1: Every action has an equal yet opposite reaction. Also keep in mind Rule #2: matter can never be created nor destroyed. Breaks are most effective on rifles and some pistols. Specifically a gun that shoots a bullet with equal or near equal mass of the powder that is accelerating it. As the weight of the projectile starts to multiply over the weight of the charge is where the effectiveness is reduced. Lets take .223 for example. Pretend we have a varmint load with a 40 grain bullet being pushed by 26 grains of powder. When the powder burns it is converted into vapor, but if you remember rule number 2, then you understand that it is still 26 grains of vapor, by mass, being pushed out of the muzzle. Breaks work by directing this mass back towards the shooter. Now if you recall rule number one, then you will know that this has the effect of cancelling a very sizable amount of energy caused by the 40 grain projectile coming out of the barrel; in theory about 65%, but real world results are probably not as sizable due to efficiency loss (break design, gas cannot be directed exactly rearwards, and is deflected at an angle).

When you start talking about a shotgun load however, we are looking at a projectile of around 500 grains, being pushed by 21 grains of powder (When I reload I use 21 grains of reddot in my 1 1/8 recipe, other loads may differ slightly).

Even if the gasses were directed backwards at a perfect, yet impossible, angle of 180 degrees, you would still only have an "efficacy" of less then 1%. (hope none of the above was too difficult and science based for you to follow)

In a MB'ed shotgun any "felt" recoil reduction is purely psychological...A placebo if you will...Kind of like religion ;) (unless you want to count the added weight of the muzzle device, which helps somewhat).

On the matter of a forgrip being able to enable better recoil control of the gun; now that's just common sense. Its an extra point of contact. It allows you to better grip it, and also allows you to more easily execute the "push, pull" method of shotgun shooting (unless you want to disagree with Rob Haught?). Not to mention that its more natural for your wrist, and more ergonomic too.

Gq74aiXn1b4

BigDogatPlay
07-06-2011, 12:27 PM
I agree with what your saying here but you also have to consider the fact that changing a 10 round shotgun mag with a bullet button takes a fraction of the time it would take to load 8 rounds through a tube fed shotty.

Really? ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3E5wtmWCk4

Granted this guy is a world class shooter, and there is a ton of practice involved to get that good, but I've seen even middle of the road 3 gun shooters reload a lot more rapidly than most people could with a bullet button equipped gun, assuming the bullet button is used in a completely legal manner.

Excelsior
07-06-2011, 1:55 PM
Really? ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3E5wtmWCk4

Granted this guy is a world class shooter, and there is a ton of practice involved to get that good, but I've seen even middle of the road 3 gun shooters reload a lot more rapidly than most people could with a bullet button equipped gun, assuming the bullet button is used in a completely legal manner.

Kruchin is too slow. You need to watch someone like Garcia to see world-class shotgun loading.

http://www.youtube.com/user/3GunStuff#p/u/11/sc62hQe0IM4

Still there is a problem. People like Garcia and Kruchin had to develop these skills because of the dearth of removable magazine shotguns. Let both of these guys practice removing mags from a Saiga and their reloads would be significantly faster than those shown in the video.

Rob454
07-06-2011, 2:02 PM
Really? ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3E5wtmWCk4

Granted this guy is a world class shooter, and there is a ton of practice involved to get that good, but I've seen even middle of the road 3 gun shooters reload a lot more rapidly than most people could with a bullet button equipped gun, assuming the bullet button is used in a completely legal manner.

As fast as that guy was it still took him 6 seconds to load the 8 rounds. And thats a guy who does it a lot and obviously is practiced in doing the loading. The AVERAGE shooter is not gonna load his gun that fast hell even the better than average shooter wont without a lot of practice.. The guy was SET up for quick loading with ammo racked up ready to go. Yeah I guess if you are completely retarded and never practiced with a BB equipped rifle then you would be slow. Even with a bullet button you should be able to lock and load as quick or almost as quick.

Excelsior
07-06-2011, 3:53 PM
...Breaks are most effective on rifles and some pistols. Specifically a gun that shoots a bullet with equal or near equal mass of the powder that is accelerating it.

As the weight of the projectile starts to multiply over the weight of the charge is where the effectiveness is reduced. Lets take .223 for example. Pretend we have a varmint load with a 40 grain bullet being pushed by 26 grains of powder. When the powder burns it is converted into vapor, but if you remember rule number 2, then you understand that it is still 26 grains of vapor, by mass, being pushed out of the muzzle. Breaks work by directing this mass back towards the shooter. Now if you recall rule number one, then you will know that this has the effect of cancelling a very sizable amount of energy caused by the 40 grain projectile coming out of the barrel; in theory about 65%, but real world results are probably not as sizable due to efficiency loss (break design, gas cannot be directed exactly rearwards, and is deflected at an angle).

No. The mass of the charge is important only because it effectively equates to the volume of gunpowder in a given cartridge. Identical, static volumes ("masses" if we ignore the normal force) of different gunpowders can contain wildly different levels of energy. In other words the level of energy and the resultant explosive force accelerating the bullet/shot (and the opposing, partially resolved/redirected resultant force through the brake) are largely what determine recoil.

The force that's to be reduced is created by the explosion of the gunpowder accelerating the mass of the bullet/shot. You're trying to make the case that the physical mass of the gunpowder accelerated by its own explosion is what is accelerating the bullet/shot. No. You want the simplest of all tests? Study the different, advertised energy levels of identical measures of different gun powders. They are wildly different. Or you can load a shell packed with cotton in your shotgun and experience the recoil for yourself.

You're suggesting the size of the impulse that takes place when the pressure wave (resulting from the explosion of the gunpower) slams into the static bullet/shot is what determines if the recoil can be mitigated. No. It's the ability/inability to resolve/redirect the gasses.

On the matter of a forgrip being able to enable better recoil control of the gun; now that's just common sense. Its an extra point of contact. It allows you to better grip it, and also allows you to more easily execute the "push, pull" method of shotgun shooting (unless you want to disagree with Rob Haught?). Not to mention that its more natural for your wrist, and more ergonomic too.
Naw. Looks funny too.

I can see how a pistol grip MIGHT be appropriate for someone like a LEO who has to momentarily point a shotgun with one hand where the PG would be of benefit but for the reasons you offer? Nope.

prc77
07-06-2011, 4:15 PM
The reason I prefer a tube feed shotgun is the ability to change my type of ammo fairly easy.
With the Mossberg, eject round in chamber, dump out the one that is now on the lifter. So you just lost 2 rounds, right. Take a slug off the side saddle drop it in the ejection port, action forward. Pick up another off the SS and into the magtube. Takes longer to type it, than it does to do it. With a mag feed shotgun you give up the ability to make fast ammo type changes.

Nihonto Chicken
07-06-2011, 4:46 PM
Browning A5's are real nice auto shotguns. Auto 5's (and the Remington and Savage variants) are VERY cool. As more than one expert has said, if Benelli came out the the Auto5 today, some people would be falling over themselves to purchase one.

For home defense, here's a thought (IMO):

http://world.guns.ru/userfiles/images/shotgun/sh41/browning_a5_police8rd.jpg

An original will set you back $1200 or so, if you can find one. For much less you can get as close as this, maybe more useful in being a bit shorter (photo of nice build by another CGN contributor):

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v652/ResDogDM/Weapons/Rem11_4.jpg

Basically get a decent condition (but non-collectible) Remington Model 11 or Savage 720, cut down the barrel and add a mag extension, should be less money than any new semi-auto and many used ones. Can also use a Browning A-5, but they tend to run significantly more $$$ than Rem or Savage. Just a thought. A humpback SG is like anchovy pizza, either you like it or you don't. ;)

Excelsior
07-06-2011, 5:19 PM
For home defense, here's a thought (IMO):

http://world.guns.ru/userfiles/images/shotgun/sh41/browning_a5_police8rd.jpg

An original will set you back $1200 or so, if you can find one.

I have seen that one before. It's awesome. I wish someone would sell an extended tube and fore stock like that!


For much less you can get as close as this, maybe more useful in being a bit shorter (photo of nice build by another CGN contributor):

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v652/ResDogDM/Weapons/Rem11_4.jpg

Basically get a decent condition (but non-collectible) Remington Model 11 or Savage 720, cut down the barrel and add a mag extension, should be less money than any new semi-auto and many used ones. Can also use a Browning A-5, but they tend to run significantly more $$$ than Rem or Savage. Just a thought. A humpback SG is like anchovy pizza, either you like it or you don't. ;)

Sublime...

The only knocks I know on the A-5 are their recoil (which can be mitigated with a good recoil pad/mercury vial and they are not necessarily easy to laod on the fly...

Do you know anyone that makes a mag extension for the A-5?

Thefeeder
07-06-2011, 5:26 PM
IMO A5's are not heavey on recoil.....shot and still own many of them

robnall84
07-06-2011, 5:27 PM
FN SLP mark 1 FTW!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9mAEedYoGA

GW
07-06-2011, 5:29 PM
I agree with what your saying here but you also have to consider the fact that changing a 10 round shotgun mag with a bullet button takes a fraction of the time it would take to load 8 rounds through a tube fed shotty.

Except, you don't need to feed all 8 rounds at once. You can shoot one load one all day long. That is the bottom-feeder's advantage over mag fed shotguns

Excelsior
07-06-2011, 5:34 PM
If FNH, Remington and possibly Benelli came out with great removable magazine shotguns you'd only find tubes in the Heavy Metal category.

Excelsior
07-06-2011, 5:37 PM
Except, you don't need to feed all 8 rounds at once. You can shoot one load one all day long. That is the bottom-feeder's advantage over mag fed shotguns
Except that dropping and loading a new mag takes about the same amount of time as loading a single shell for most folks.

If you had to grab a single shell (or keep a handful) and load one after every shot your firepower would be greatly reduced.

Excelsior
07-06-2011, 5:39 PM
IMO A5's are not heavey on recoil.....shot and still own many of them
Very heavy compared to a gas gun. Not sure how the compare to Benelli's interia system.

Thefeeder
07-06-2011, 6:21 PM
The Browning "Light Twelve" runs about 7.5 lbs with a 28" barrel and walnut stock.

The Benelli run about the same weight in the same config.

I have to admitt the recoil is very different. Not heavy, but different indeed

Excelsior
07-06-2011, 6:49 PM
The Browning "Light Twelve" runs about 7.5 lbs with a 28" barrel and walnut stock.

The Benelli run about the same weight in the same config.

I have to admitt the recoil is very different. Not heavy, but different indeed
Sorry -- I meant "heavy recoil" when compared to a gas gun.

giants_fan24
07-06-2011, 6:51 PM
Everyone speaks shotgun :)

PANTyRAiD
07-06-2011, 9:01 PM
No. The mass of the charge is important only because it effectively equates to the volume of gunpowder in a given cartridge. Identical, static volumes ("masses" if we ignore the normal force) of different gunpowders can contain wildly different levels of energy.

Volume and mass are two very different things, just so you know. If I take what you are saying in context, then I'm going to assume you mean "two static powder masses can contain wildly different levels of energy" which is correct. No one is trying to argue different. I am a reloader and know quite well the characteristics of RL15 as opposed to 2460 and especially to bluedot or herco.

In other words the level of energy and the resultant explosive force accelerating the bullet/shot (and the opposing, partially resolved/redirected resultant force through the brake) are largely what determine recoil.

Yes, I am on board with this statement...

The force that's to be reduced is created by the explosion of the gunpowder accelerating the mass of the bullet/shot. You're trying to make the case that the physical mass of the gunpowder accelerated by its own explosion is what is accelerating the bullet/shot.

No, I am not trying to make that case. The projectile is accelerated by the pressure of said explosion, not by the mass of it. The mass however does not go away just because it is converted into vapor form. If you boil 10 grams of water, and could somehow weigh the steam, you would have 10 grams of steam. Now lets take for example a steam engine. The piston (identical to a bullet) inside the engine is being pushed by steam (identical to burning powder), not by the mass of it, but simply by the pressure. Same as a gun. However, with a gun, we still have to take into account the vapor mass exiting the barrel at extremely high velocity right directly behind the bullet. The break simply takes advantage of the conservation of mass. It redirects the vapor mass backwards toward the shooter and negates the mass of the projectile kicking off from the barrel.

No. You want the simplest of all tests? Study the different, advertised energy levels of identical measures of different gun powders. They are wildly different. Or you can load a shell packed with cotton in your shotgun and experience the recoil for yourself.

What you are talking about here is "felt" recoil. Yes some powders burn faster, and produce a recoil spike/impulse that is very sudden and high, but lasts for a very short time. Have you ever heard of the .40 S&W being described as "snappy" when compared to the .45 acp; even in loads with the exact same ft/lbs of energy at the muzzle? This is because the .40 reaches much higher pressures then the .45, and exits the barrel at a higher velocity. When looking at the numbers however, the recoil energy is the same for both calibers, its just that the "felt" recoil is different because the .45 impulse/spike is lower, but lasts for a much longer time. Felt recoil is different, but overall recoil force is the same. If I loaded my shells with cotton and varies types of powders, yes I would feel different recoil spikes, but if my shoulder could measure total recoil energy, it would record very similar numbers for each powder regardless of how they "felt."

You're suggesting the size of the impulse that takes place when the pressure wave (resulting from the explosion of the gunpower) slams into the static bullet/shot is what determines if the recoil can be mitigated. No. It's the ability/inability to resolve/redirect the gasses.


Naw. Looks funny too.

Here you go again trying to impose your views on how someone else's gun "should look".... Just like how the anti's try to impose their view of how our society "should look," right?:cool2:

I can see how a pistol grip MIGHT be appropriate for someone like a LEO who has to momentarily point a shotgun with one hand where the PG would be of benefit but for the reasons you offer? Nope.

Check out the bold...

GW
07-06-2011, 10:54 PM
Except that dropping and loading a new mag takes about the same amount of time as loading a single shell for most folks.
The OP said in California which means you are fumbling around with a bullet button.
If you had to grab a single shell (or keep a handful) and load one after every shot your firepower would be greatly reduced.
BUT you stay in the fight.


I am genuinely curious about the operation of a Saiga, however--

How many magazines will you carry?
Where are you stashing the mags you remove when you're doing tactical reloads?
How do you switch to slugs, if needed?
What do you do if/when you run out of/empty all of your magazines while the fight is still on? (Which, admittedly would be a a rather protracted gunfight)

Not asking to yank chains, I do want to know

X-NewYawker
07-06-2011, 11:03 PM
Jesus.
Saigas SUCK.
Bullet Buttons SUCK.
We convince ourselves "it's okay."

Benelli M2

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p54/Fasanoland/Rifles/Benelli.jpg


You can gussy it up:

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p54/Fasanoland/handguns/SALIENT-BEnelli.jpg


But out of the box it is LEGAL, reliable and powerful.

marcusrn
07-06-2011, 11:08 PM
Get used Rem 1100 or 1187 for $4-5C at used gun shop. I really don't need another SGN at this time but I've seen some nice used Rem semi autos lately in SD county area for good prices.Why not let someone else break the gun in for you?These guns are good for tens of K rds. IMHO NRA SGN instructor.

Saigas and benellis are fun but why pay so much? Rem is proven combat and wing gun.

hefedehefe
07-06-2011, 11:12 PM
Saiga 12 aow

Excelsior
07-07-2011, 8:12 AM
Jesus.
Saigas SUCK.
Bullet Buttons SUCK.
We convince ourselves "it's okay."

Benelli M2

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p54/Fasanoland/Rifles/Benelli.jpg


You can gussy it up:

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p54/Fasanoland/handguns/SALIENT-BEnelli.jpg


But out of the box it is LEGAL, reliable and powerful.

And outdated and expensive...

Excelsior
07-07-2011, 8:13 AM
Get used Rem 1100 or 1187 for $4-5C at used gun shop. I really don't need another SGN at this time but I've seen some nice used Rem semi autos lately in SD county area for good prices.Why not let someone else break the gun in for you?These guns are good for tens of K rds. IMHO NRA SGN instructor.

Saigas and benellis are fun but why pay so much? Rem is proven combat and wing gun.

Amen.

X-NewYawker
07-07-2011, 8:36 AM
And outdated and expensive...

Outdated? Wasn't the Ak designed in 1947?
Benelli: no gas system. Load on carrier for extra shell. Wear a carpenter's nail apron full of shells.

and again -- no bullet button.

Nihonto Chicken
07-07-2011, 9:37 PM
You can gussy it up:

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p54/Fasanoland/handguns/SALIENT-BEnelli.jpg

But out of the box it is LEGAL, reliable and powerful.

Wow! I believe! But where's the shotgun??? :rolleyes:

Excelsior
07-08-2011, 12:03 AM
Outdated? Wasn't the Ak designed in 1947?
Benelli: no gas system. Load on carrier for extra shell. Wear a carpenter's nail apron full of shells.

and again -- no bullet button.

A product becomes outdated when its performance has been eclipsed -- not when its design has reached a certain number of birthdays. It could be argued the M1911 pistol is not "outdated."

The Benelli M4 is gas...

You could wear a carpenter's nail apron full of shells with the Saiga as well. You'd simply be loading (and pre-loading) removable box magazines rather than one tube magazine that's stuck to the gun. Better yet load-up a bunch of removable mags before you begin -- the apron will still work.

One has to wonder if there are people on here who believe a tube-fed M-16 would have a tactical advantage over a conventional M-16? ;)

motorwerks
07-08-2011, 12:08 AM
another vote for Remington 1100 or 11- I love mine.

Excelsior
07-08-2011, 12:08 AM
I am genuinely curious about the operation of a Saiga, however--

How many magazines will you carry? About 1/3 to 1/2 the shell caddies you currently carry.

Where are you stashing the mags you remove when you're doing tactical reloads? You fling them on the ground like Hickok45 of course!

How do you switch to slugs, if needed? Drop the mag and drill one more while you slam home a magazine full of slugs.

What do you do if/when you run out of/empty all of your magazines while the fight is still on? (Which, admittedly would be a a rather protracted gunfight)
Probably the same thing you do when you run out of ammo now with yer tube gun. Well in this case you have an empty mag to throw at them.

Not asking to yank chains, I do want to know
OK.

Sicarius
07-08-2011, 1:25 AM
What is the budget? That will narrow down the possibilities quite a bit...
My go to is a Benelli M1 S90. I am very familiar with it and it has served me well over the last 14 years. Not to say that it is the best but that is what I would choose if I were to choose one.
Some other great semi auto's in no order:
FN SLP
Mossberg 930
Winchester SX3
Remi 1100
Browning A5
Benelli M1-4

Saiga 12s are neat and have their place. With their quality control very lacking, I would hardly call it an out of the box have a great time shotgun. Especially if you are using wally world bulk pack ammo... which is really the point of it. 700+ bucks and a silly bullet button, hardly worth it. Definitely not qualified to be the 1st and only semi auto shotgun IMO. I am not just talking smack... I have one. It is a toy.
Kevin

GW
07-08-2011, 5:56 PM
Originally Posted by GW View Post
I am genuinely curious about the operation of a Saiga, however--

How many magazines will you carry? About 1/3 to 1/2 the shell caddies you currently carry.

Where are you stashing the mags you remove when you're doing tactical reloads? You fling them on the ground like Hickok45 of course! Well, the purpose of the tactical reload is to retain the magazine as it should still have rounds in it. I guess if you have a "dump pouch" you can stuff them there. IMHO the Saiga mags are too bulky to stuff in a pocket

How do you switch to slugs, if needed? Drop the mag and drill one more while you slam home a magazine full of slugs.Fair enough

What do you do if/when you run out of/empty all of your magazines while the fight is still on? (Which, admittedly would be a a rather protracted gunfight)
Probably the same thing you do when you run out of ammo now with yer tube gun. Well in this case you have an empty mag to throw at them. I didn't ask my question correctly--if your magazines are empty but you still have ammo, can the Saiga be individually loaded i.e. slip a round into the open chamber, shoot, repeat. Can this be done or do you have to fight with the magazine locking the bolt open each time?

Not asking to yank chains, I do want to know

Also--How well do these handle when shooting from prone position? I imagine you have to cant the Saiga but that appears to take the buttstock out of the shoulder-pocket. That's not a problem with AR/.223 loads but that's gonna hurt with enough 12 gauge buck or slug loads.


For the record, I am not opposed to magazine fed shotguns, but bullet buttons screw the pooch as far as I am concerned. Until that issue gets fixed, I think I will stick with my bottom feeders

Excelsior
07-08-2011, 11:37 PM
What is the budget? That will narrow down the possibilities quite a bit...
My go to is a Benelli M1 S90. I am very familiar with it and it has served me well over the last 14 years. Not to say that it is the best but that is what I would choose if I were to choose one.
Some other great semi auto's in no order:
FN SLP
Mossberg 930
Winchester SX3
Remi 1100
Browning A5
Benelli M1-4

Saiga 12s are neat and have their place. With their quality control very lacking, I would hardly call it an out of the box have a great time shotgun. Especially if you are using wally world bulk pack ammo... which is really the point of it. 700+ bucks and a silly bullet button, hardly worth it. Definitely not qualified to be the 1st and only semi auto shotgun IMO. I am not just talking smack... I have one. It is a toy.
Kevin
What do you mean by that?

Excelsior
07-08-2011, 11:42 PM
What is the budget? That will narrow down the possibilities quite a bit...
My go to is a Benelli M1 S90. I am very familiar with it and it has served me well over the last 14 years. Not to say that it is the best but that is what I would choose if I were to choose one.
Some other great semi auto's in no order:
FN SLP
Mossberg 930
Winchester SX3
Remi 1100
Browning A5
Benelli M1-4

Saiga 12s are neat and have their place. With their quality control very lacking, I would hardly call it an out of the box have a great time shotgun. Especially if you are using wally world bulk pack ammo... which is really the point of it. 700+ bucks and a silly bullet button, hardly worth it. Definitely not qualified to be the 1st and only semi auto shotgun IMO. I am not just talking smack... I have one. It is a toy.
Kevin

I don't own a Saiga and I don't plan to buy one (when it comes to shotguns I am a USA heavy metal sorta guy) but I have to call meadow muffins on your emboldened comment. Saigas take a lot of hits for various reasons but I have never heard anyone credible suggest they were "toys."

grommit666
07-09-2011, 7:15 AM
SAIGA 12

done in 1.

L84CABO
07-10-2011, 12:08 AM
Home defense: Remington 870. Not sure why someone would spend the money on a gas gun like the M4 for home defense.



Cause M4's are chok full of awesome! Duh :D

Seriously though, maybe someone wants semi auto instead of pump for home defense. And the M4 is one of the better options out there in that category...not that there aren't cheaper.

Danz la Nuit
07-10-2011, 1:52 AM
/overwhelmed lol

Price range = Under 1k

Don't have the money at the moment, hope to by the end of the year...

Sicarius
07-10-2011, 1:53 AM
What do you mean by that?

I mean that the gas holes are sometimes not drilled, drilled at the right angle, drilled large enough. Some have had the gas block canted... The "Legion" marked ones seem to have better QC but there have been some issues with the S12. The gas system is the most sensitive part of the gun and it is beyond me how on some were let out of the factory.
As for calling it a toy, that is just my perspective on it. What I mean is it is a fun gun to tinker on and mod. It is fun to shoot and dump mags... For me, it doesn't lend itself to shooting clays very well. Can it be done? yes, but I have better options to do that. Would I trust my life with it in a HD situation? probably not. I have more reliable shotguns that it. I purchased it for kicks and grins. In that capacity it has served me well. In that sense, it is a toy.
Kevin

tm_jones123
07-10-2011, 2:10 AM
FN!!!

caliacp
07-10-2011, 3:55 AM
Here's my two cents, tube feed shotguns and saigas are both great weapon systems. I'm not gonna say which one is better because like all tools they all have there part. But just stating the obvious is that tube feed shotguns are more versatile(ammo selection) then the saigas and are lighter in weight. As for the saigas they have a lot more fire power and is a little heavier then the rest of the shotgun family. So figure out what your gonna use the weapon for and how, then decide which platform you wanna go with. If you can't decide on which one to get then just buy all of them!!!

SAR_boats
07-10-2011, 6:14 AM
Benelli M1, M2, M3, M4

BamBam-31
07-10-2011, 3:16 PM
Have a Benelli and Saiga for sale here: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=454017

plumbum
07-10-2011, 4:35 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v652/ResDogDM/Weapons/Rem11_4.jpg


http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p54/Fasanoland/handguns/SALIENT-BEnelli.jpg

I can't decide which one I would rather get my hands on ... :confused:

Spyder
07-10-2011, 4:52 PM
If it helps you decide, the first ones a fake. :D

Richard Erichsen
08-14-2011, 2:28 PM
I see the Saiga 12 as being a good/cheap 3-Gun shotgun until the AKDAL Arms MKA-1919 AR-15 gets sorted out. Eventually both will send Benelli et. al. back to the CAD screen to design a removable mag-fed shotgun.

What I would really like to see is the entrepreneurial spirit here in the USA take hold of an "AR-based" shotgun (we can knock-off the MKA-1919 AR-15!) where people can piece together their own from domestically made parts...

Removable mag shotguns are not without their problems as the acres of Saiga 12 threads would imply. With much of the attention in R&D going to submachine guns, carbines, rifles and machine guns as primary weapons, the shotgun falls into the niches for either a sporting/hunting weapon (where hunting uses tend to have legal limits on ammo capacity) or as a backup/door breaching/special applications weapon where reliability and single shot destructive effect or payload flexibility are the most important factors. Used in this way in a tactical role within a team, the shotgunner acts in a primarily supportive role.

The Turkish MKA-1919 has 5 and maybe 10 shell magazines. The Saiga 12 uses 5 and 10 shell mags and 20 shell drums. Other than competition or military use 20 shells may not be that important. If more shells are needed, those nifty Centrion 2" shells (I've heard of but not tried the 1.5" shells) can increase mag capacity in a tube magazine though they can be a bit dicey in semi-autos and you sacrifice some payload. A shorter shell won't do a thing in a box magazine, it may actually lead to mis-feeds.

For tube fed shotguns, there are speed loaders for competition use that push 4 rounds into the weapon's magazine at a time that you push, withdraw and drop when the shells are in the tube. Two strips and the weapons is fully loaded (assuming an 8 shot mag, typical of competition use). I suspect with some effort and practice a 5-6 shot speed loader would be realistic. Those shell "charging sticks" look odd, but they do appear to work pretty well in the hands of a well practiced user. They also don't take up much space on a belt. TecLoader is one of two such products. http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=128091

I for one prefer the long sleek looks of the tube shotguns over those of the chunky mag fed weapons. Military applications don't bother with looks, for example that AA-12 is ugly as sin but obviously quite deadly in it's intended purpose for CQB. Pick your poison.

R

sirr6
08-14-2011, 4:28 PM
I have the Benelli M1 and love it, and picking up my Benelli M4 on friday, they are pretty pricey but if you can afford it, I'd go with the Benelli M1-M4

alfred1222
08-14-2011, 4:38 PM
+1 for the saiga 12


there's a calguns member that sells saiga 12 pistols that are AOW's as far as the ATF is concerned. the user is EBR Works.

paulyski
08-25-2011, 3:01 AM
compulsivegunbuyer I would buy a Saiga 12, but not for the $700+

Except to get them to run, like R&R's in 3 gun, they cost alot more than that, starting at $2,500 and up.

Benelli M1-M4, but especially 1st gen M1 Super 90s

I have quite a few competition shooters that would strongly disagree with you.
http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/67196-big-thanks-to-pauly/

Sure, some people are out there to soak you & there are some real snake-oil salesmen out there (one of which ironically is actually about to market a product he calls "snake oil" although he doesn't know his arse from a hole in the wall about lubrication) however, there are a few who's goals are to get people's weapon's running right without bending them over like a virgin on prom night...

Just sayin'...

Iggy
08-25-2011, 2:33 PM
I don't know what all the Benelli hate is all about, but I like my M4. It is probably the most fun to shoot and definitely a keeper in my stable. I know a lot of guys run the modified Benelli M2's in 3 gun. The M4 is used by the Marines so it is battle proven. I don't see very many stock saiga's used in battle or competition, but they are cheap.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5185/5663426428_be9f04434f_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/planetiggy/5663426428/)
Benelli M4 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/planetiggy/5663426428/) by .iggy (http://www.flickr.com/people/planetiggy/), on Flickr

1KqvWD-HhIQ

Corbin Dallas
08-25-2011, 3:17 PM
Benelli M# Super90 or FN SLP.

Forget magazine feed shotguns.

My .02

xxINKxx
08-25-2011, 3:32 PM
For non expensive option (since Everyones already covered beneli ect)

Big 5 is now selling the escort mp-a, semi auto HD shotgun. For 379$ Kinda looks like the beneli m4 styling. Has lots of nice features for the lower price. Lots of good reviews on other forums, and acual gun websites. As well as good reviews from calguns members. I picked up the pump version. Everything seems made well and solid.

http://www.hatsan.com.tr/escort_mp_a.asp

Ausmith
08-26-2011, 1:57 PM
Beretta for Birds. I have known a few turkeys who absolutely hate them.

Saym14
08-26-2011, 11:27 PM
Benelli M4. add a carrier comp mag ext and bolt release. you dont see US Marines carrying the Saiga 12.