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Sailormilan2
07-04-2011, 6:42 AM
While not specifically a gun or 2A question, this has to do with ammo shipping. Mods feel free to move to appropriate forum if it doesn't fit here.

I plan on shipping some rifle ammo to a guy to do testing on it. It probably won't be more than 10 rds of WW2 M2 AP ammo.
Do I have to package it a certain way or mark it as hazardous? I would like to send it USPS, but I can send UPS.

Dutch3
07-04-2011, 6:48 AM
Do I have to package it a certain way or mark it as hazardous? I would like to send it USPS, but I can send UPS.


I believe it needs to go via ground transportation and have one of these on it.

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k37/wilbilt/72190_ORM-D-cartridges-small-arms-stickers.gif

rromeo
07-04-2011, 6:49 AM
You cannot send it USPS. UPS is fine, with an "ORM-D small arms cartridges" label.

Wernher von Browning
07-04-2011, 10:23 AM
You may have trouble convincing your local UPS to take it.

I had to ship some ammo once, UPS "shipping store" would not take it, the local FedEx franchise (Kinko's Office or whatever they call those) would not either, I had to go to a genuine FedEx facility about a mile down the street from the FedEx Kinko's. They knew exactly what was needed and said "Don't bother going to a regular office, they won't know what to do". I said yeah, I found that out already.

Postal Service just flat will not take it. You'll have to try a full-on FedEx or UPS staffed location.

monk
08-08-2011, 5:27 PM
I wanted to bump this to let people know that apparently, ammunition isn't shippable thru UPS anymore. Verified with a lady working at a customer service counter and with a phone service rep. Looks like FedEx is the only shipper available to us. Not sure if anyone informed UPS that it's ok to ship ammunition now or if this policy is here to stay.

Mssr. Eleganté
08-08-2011, 5:59 PM
I wanted to bump this to let people know that apparently, ammunition isn't shippable thru UPS anymore. Verified with a lady working at a customer service counter and with a phone service rep. Looks like FedEx is the only shipper available to us. Not sure if anyone informed UPS that it's ok to ship ammunition now or if this policy is here to stay.

UPS just updated their shipping tariff last month and it still says shipping ammunition through UPS is fine. Their web site also still says they accept ammunition.

Where did you first hear about this change of policy before you verified it with the lady at the counter?

Librarian
08-08-2011, 6:02 PM
UPS seems not to have updated their on-line version of their procedures (http://www.ups.com/content/us/en/resources/ship/packaging/guidelines/firearms.html):Ammunition must be shipped separately from packages that contain firearms (including handguns).
Ammunition will be transported only when packaged and labeled in compliance with 49 C.F.R. § 172 regarding hazardous materials shipments, and must be shipped in accordance with the UPS Guide for Shipping Ground and Air Hazardous Materials. That web doc does not say they won't ship ammo.

It would not be the first time that a company's web presence was out of date.

blazeaglory
08-08-2011, 6:43 PM
Cabelas is still shipping ammo through UPS. I called them today.

monk
08-08-2011, 6:46 PM
UPS just updated their shipping tariff last month and it still says shipping ammunition through UPS is fine. Their web site also still says they accept ammunition.

Where did you first hear about this change of policy before you verified it with the lady at the counter?


I started by looking online but the most recent posting I could find where from 2010. I then went to a UPS store and was told I needed to go to a customer service location, a hub I guess. Luckily there was one about 2 miles from my house so I went there. I gave the lady the box and when I told her it was ammo she dropped it and said very simply "ok, I can't ship it". I asked if it was just that location and she said all UPS locations because it was hazmat. I left and called up UPS's service desk. The lady on the phone told me that new policy has been implemented barring the shipment of ammunition.

FedEx, on the other hand, has confirmed that they do ship ammunition with the proper form.

If anyone would like to call UPS and confirm, by all means, please do.

Wernher von Browning
08-08-2011, 6:54 PM
Cabelas is still shipping ammo through UPS. I called them today.

Apparently retailers have some kind of arrangement with UPS to do that. Little guys like us, no arrangement.

blazeaglory
08-08-2011, 6:58 PM
Apparently retailers have some kind of arrangement with UPS to do that. Little guys like us, no arrangement.

DOH! I mean whats the difference? Are they afraid we (the little people) will try to pull some kind of "uni-bomber" type of mailing?

Ubermcoupe
08-08-2011, 7:02 PM
Double-checking with my "homie" here in SJ. He's the hazardous materials handler for one of the UPS distr hubs, I should have an answer by tomorrow.

EDIT:
Got in contact with my buddy, he confirms he ships ammunition .50 & under. Asked him about a "limit", whether weight, or # of rounds, etc but he was unsure about a limit.

Maybe you just need to talk to the right person? I know I have heard about people going back and forth with UPS about shipping firearms. :shrug:

monk
08-08-2011, 7:57 PM
Apparently retailers have some kind of arrangement with UPS to do that. Little guys like us, no arrangement.

This sounds about right. The lady at the customer service center was saying that only an approved person could ship ammo. I assumed she meant someone else like FedEx or an FFL. Didn't ask her to elaborate.

Librarian
08-08-2011, 8:40 PM
The lady on the phone told me that new policy has been implemented barring the shipment of ammunition.

That is definitely NOT in their latest tariff; read it by downloading from http://www.ups.com/content/us/en/service.html –Small arms ammunition, as defined in 49 C.F.R. § 173.59, will be transported only when packaged and labeled in compliance with 49 C.F.R. § 172 (Hazardous Materials). Ammunition may not be shipped in the same package as a firearm. Page 8 of the .pdf, p 5 internal doc numbering.

monk
08-08-2011, 8:45 PM
That is definitely NOT in their latest tariff; read it by downloading from http://www.ups.com/content/us/en/service.html Page 8 of the .pdf, p 5 internal doc numbering.

Hmm, wonder if I should print that out and take it with me tomorrow lol.

monk
08-09-2011, 8:25 AM
Hmm, wonder if I should print that out and take it with me tomorrow lol.

EDIT:

Just got off the phone with UPS again. First lady I spoke said confirmed yesterday's responses "No we don't ship ammunition". Call then dropped. Called back and asked the second lady if I could speak to a manager. Call dropped. Called a third time and informed the third lady that the policy on their site which was recently updated says that I can. She then transferred me to the hazmat phone line and they confirmed that so long as it meets certain requirements, one of which is that it needs an ORM-D label on it stating that it's small arms, they will ship it ground. Here's another thread I found will full details on shipping.

http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=432303

Mssr. Eleganté
08-09-2011, 9:10 AM
...so long as it meets certain requirements, one of which is that it needs an ORM-D label on it stating that it's small arms...

That's the old requirement. As of a few months ago, you no longer need to put the ORM-D label or the words "Cartridges, Small Arms" on the package. Now you can just put the new limited quantity marking on the package.

http://www.type03.net/ammo/limitedquantitysmall.jpg

The diamond label has to be of a certain size to be legal, but you can print them out by going to this thread...

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=54456

We are in the middle of a two year transition period where it is legal to use either the old ORM-D Cartridges, Small Arms labels or the new limited quantity diamond label. After December 31, 2013 you will be required to use the diamond label and the ORM-D labels won't be valid anymore.

Not having to write the words "Cartridges, Small Arms" on the package is a big plus for ammo shippers.

EOD Guy
08-09-2011, 9:36 AM
That's the old requirement. As of a few months ago, you no longer need to put the ORM-D label or the words "Cartridges, Small Arms" on the package. Now you can just put the new limited quantity marking on the package.

http://www.type03.net/ammo/limitedquantitysmall.jpg

The diamond label has to be of a certain size to be legal, but you can print them out by going to this thread...

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=54456

We are in the middle of a two year transition period where it is legal to use either the old ORM-D Cartridges, Small Arms labels or the new limited quantity diamond label. After December 31, 2013 you will be required to use the diamond label and the ORM-D labels won't be valid anymore.

Not having to write the words "Cartridges, Small Arms" on the package is a big plus for ammo shippers.

NOTE: It is incorrect to use these labels as illustrated.

The UN/NA ID number for the limited quantity material must be printed in the blank space in the center of the square on point marking. For small arms cartridges, that number is UN0012.

Mssr. Eleganté
08-09-2011, 10:18 AM
NOTE: It is incorrect to use these labels as illustrated.

The UN/NA ID number for the limited quantity material must be printed in the blank space in the center of the square on point marking. For small arms cartridges, that number is UN0012.

Thanks for the heads up, but where are you seeing this in the regs? I thought § 172.315 exempted Limited Quantity ground shipments from having to include the ID number on the LQ label. :confused:

§ 172.315 Limited quantities.

(a) Except for transportation by aircraft or as otherwise provided in this subchapter, a package containing a limited quantity of hazardous material is not required to be marked with the proper shipping name and identification (ID) number when marked in accordance with the white square-on-point limited quantity marking as follows:

(1) The limited quantity marking must be durable, legible and of a size relative to the package that is readily visible. The marking must be applied on at least one side or one end of the outer packaging. The width of the border forming the square-on-point must be at least 2 mm and the minimum dimension of each side must be 100 mm unless the package size requires a reduced size marking that must be no less than 50 mm on each side. When intended for transportation by vessel, a cargo transport unit ( see §176.2 of this subchapter) containing only limited quantity material must be suitably marked on one side or end of the exterior of the unit with an identical mark except that it must have minimum dimensions of 250 mm on each side.

(2) The top and bottom portions of the square-on-point and the border forming the square-on-point must be black and the center white or of a suitable contrasting background as follows:

Ubermcoupe
08-09-2011, 3:30 PM
Hmm, wonder if I should print that out and take it with me tomorrow lol.

EDIT:

Just got off the phone with UPS again. First lady I spoke said confirmed yesterday's responses "No we don't ship ammunition". Call then dropped. Called back and asked the second lady if I could speak to a manager. Call dropped. Called a third time and informed the third lady that the policy on their site which was recently updated says that I can. She then transferred me to the hazmat phone line and they confirmed that so long as it meets certain requirements, one of which is that it needs an ORM-D label on it stating that it's small arms, they will ship it ground. Here's another thread I found will full details on shipping.

http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=432303


Glad to hear you finally got a straight answer. :) Troubled that it took you three people to get a 'right' answer...kinda reminds me of some other folks::iggy2:

Tempus
08-09-2011, 3:50 PM
Glad that was cleared up. SGAmmo shipped me a few K rnds via UPS last week. Was slightly confused as to why they'd have changed policy is such a short period.

Mssr. Eleganté
08-09-2011, 4:57 PM
Every six moths or so somebody starts a thread on a gun forum saying that either UPS or FedEx Ground has stopped accepting ammo shipments. Sometimes they say it's a complete ban, other times they say you now need a special account to ship ammo.

Next up will be the thread about the radio interview with the American/Australian military General who is teaching young boys to shoot and gets the reporter with a real zinger. :p

Wernher von Browning
08-09-2011, 5:05 PM
Every six moths or so somebody starts a thread on a gun forum saying that either UPS or FedEx Ground has stopped accepting ammo shipments. Sometimes they say it's a complete ban, other times they say you now need a special account to ship ammo.


The fact is the local FedEx / formerly Kinko's "office store" type operation will NOT take ammo. They're out of their depth on that. You have to take it to a real FedEx location. I had this problem a few months ago. I had to go to what they call a "FedEx World Service Center" staffed by competent people. Not a problem for me, as it's only a half mile beyond the dummystaffed operation. The "real" operation knew about ORM-D; the other was clueless.

Been there, done that.

Mssr. Eleganté
08-09-2011, 5:21 PM
The fact is the local FedEx / formerly Kinko's "office store" type operation will NOT take ammo. They're out of their depth on that. You have to take it to a real FedEx location. I had this problem a few months ago. I had to go to what they call a "FedEx World Service Center" staffed by competent people. Not a problem for me, as it's only a half mile beyond the dummystaffed operation. The "real" operation knew about ORM-D; the other was clueless.

Been there, done that.

The FedEx Ground tariff actually prohibits shipments of ORM-D from non-FedEx owned shipping locations like FedEx Office/Kinko's. There is nothing the franchise locations can do about it. It even forbids shipping them from FedEx World Service Centers, so you lucked out there. :)

http://images.fedex.com/us/services/pdf/SG_GroundTariff_2011.pdf

Hazardous material shipments, including shipments containing ORM-D materials, are not accepted at FedEx Express Drop Box locations, FedEx Office Print and Ship Center locations, FedEx World Service Center locations, FedEx Express station or ramp locations, FedEx Authorized ShipCenter locations, and unstaffed FedEx locations.

UPS has the same policy regarding ammo shipments from third party retail locations like The UPS Store.

blazeaglory
08-09-2011, 7:52 PM
The problem is with the person behind the counter or on the phone who acts like you just committed some sin by saying you want to ship ammo.

EOD Guy
08-10-2011, 11:50 AM
Thanks for the heads up, but where are you seeing this in the regs? I thought § 172.315 exempted Limited Quantity ground shipments from having to include the ID number on the LQ label. :confused:

I don't know what edition of the regulation you're using but it's way out of date or incomplete. Here is the current section from the 1 Oct 2010 edition of 49CFR:


TITLE 49--TRANSPORTATION

CHAPTER I--PIPELINE AND HAZARDOUS MATERIALS SAFETY ADMINISTRATION,
DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION

PART 172_HAZARDOUS MATERIALS TABLE, SPECIAL PROVISIONS, HAZARDOUS
MATERIALS COMMUNICATIONS, EMERGENCY RESPONSE INFORMATION, TRAINING

Subpart D_Marking

Sec. 172.315 Packages containing limited quantities.

Except for transportation by aircraft or as otherwise provided in
this subchapter, a package containing a limited quantity of hazardous
materials is not required to be marked with the proper shipping name
provided it is marked with the identification (ID) number, preceded by
the letters ``UN'' or ``NA,'' as applicable, for the entry as shown in
the Sec. 172.101 Table, and placed within a square-on-point border in
accordance with the following:
(a) The ID number marking must be durable, legible and of such a
size relative to the package as to be readily visible. The width of line
forming the square-on-point must be at least 2 mm and the height of the
ID number must be at least 6 mm. The marking must be applied on at least
one side or one end of the outer packaging.
(b) When two or more hazardous materials with different ID numbers
are contained in the package, the packaging must be marked with either
individual square-on-points bearing a single ID number, or a single
square-on-point large enough to include each applicable ID number.
(c) As applicable, the letters ``RQ'' must be marked in association
with the square-on-point border containing the identification (ID)
number.

[68 FR 45030, July 31, 2003, as amended at 69 FR 76153, Dec. 20, 2004;
73 FR 4716, Jan. 28, 2008]

Mssr. Eleganté
08-10-2011, 12:29 PM
I don't know what edition of the regulation you're using but it's way out of date or incomplete. Here is the current section from the 1 Oct 2010 edition of 49CFR:

Have you seen the 2011 edition yet? I got my info from the Government Printing Office web site. It says the info is up to date as of August 8, 2011 and has this at the bottom of the entry...

[76 FR 3365, Jan. 19, 2011]

while the quote you posted has this at the bottom of the entry...

[68 FR 45030, July 31, 2003, as amended at 69 FR 76153, Dec. 20, 2004;
73 FR 4716, Jan. 28, 2008]

Which is more up to date, the one amended in 2008 or the one amended in 2011? :)

2Bear
08-10-2011, 12:53 PM
IME and FWIW, when a shipper picks up from your address, that often qualifies you as a verified shipper, and they will often accept hazardous items that they won't accept at drop-off locations.

DOH! I mean whats the difference? Are they afraid we (the little people) will try to pull some kind of "uni-bomber" type of mailing?

Yes.

paul0660
08-10-2011, 1:11 PM
IME and FWIW, when a shipper picks up from your address, that often qualifies you as a verified shipper, and they will often accept hazardous items that they won't accept at drop-off locations.

Having a UPS account allows you to print prepaid shipping labels, you do not have to mention the contents, and, since they are indeed in business to make money, any driver or counter person will gladly take it.

EOD Guy
08-11-2011, 7:27 AM
Have you seen the 2011 edition yet? I got my info from the Government Printing Office web site. It says the info is up to date as of August 8, 2011 and has this at the bottom of the entry...



while the quote you posted has this at the bottom of the entry...



Which is more up to date, the one amended in 2008 or the one amended in 2011? :)

Your quote is correct, although we are both technically correct. The Ltd Qty mark without ID number is mandatory after 1-1-12. In the interim, either method is authorized.

The 2011 edition of 49CFR is not published by the GPO until 1 October. I looked up your reference in the Federal register and there it was! It's unusual for a new regulation to be authorized before it's also published in the new annual edition of the appropriate regulation but the publishing in the Federal Register is what makes things official.

The only limited quantities I've shipped lately are radioactive materials where the ID number on the package will continue to be required, as of now, at least. I wouldn't be surprised if DOT gets around to applying it to rad also.

Mssr. Eleganté
08-11-2011, 10:29 AM
NOTE: It is incorrect to use these labels as illustrated.

So you are retracting the above statement then?

EOD Guy
08-12-2011, 6:27 AM
So you are retracting the above statement then?

Yes. Either way, with or without the ID number, is correct. After 1-1-12, the marking without ID number will be the only correct method.

The only reason I say either way is correct is that a carrier may not have yet switched to the new marking method.