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Bud11
07-01-2011, 8:15 PM
Just bought my first gun, a S&W model 67 .38 revolver. Really enjoying it. Also just discovered the Outdoor Channel and have been watching it lately. A lot of shows on dear, antelope and elk in Montana, Colorado, Wyoming and several other places. Looks like fun to me.

So, since I am moving to Colorado later this year and own ranch land in Wyoming, what kinds of rifles and calibers are those guys shooting in the show? They never seem to mention that, although sometimes I hear what cartridge brand they have used. I have somewhat educated myself on handguns lately, but know absolutely zip about rifles and what might be a good starter one. Guess it would depend on the game, so lets say antelope or dear to start as I know elk are bigger.

What says you??

ChuckP
07-01-2011, 8:18 PM
remington 700

Divernhunter
07-01-2011, 9:28 PM
Tikka or Savage or Weatherby Vanguard in 308win with a 3-9X40 or 3.5X10X40 Leupold scope will do you very well. Plus you can get surplus ammo for it and get more shooting in for lees money.

I hunt Wy/Nevada/Ca and plan to hunt Col in the near future. I have used many different guns/cartridges but the 308 would do what I needed and these 3 brands are what I would buy today. I have other brands and many different cartridges but if I were buying today it would be a Tikka in 308 for my first rifle. Fourty years ago I would have said 30-06 but the 308win with 150-165gr bullets will take anything you will hunt.

As you get more into it you may want to expand your cartridge selection and such but you would not need to.

Spearo
07-01-2011, 9:36 PM
Take a look at CZ, excellent rifles and triggers.

WDE91
07-01-2011, 9:42 PM
Is this only going to be a hunting rifle?
Are you going to reload?
Are you ok with obscure cartridges?
Are you recoil sensitive?
Whats your budget?

Im thinking any of the following would work well for your hunting needs
6.5mm's,7mm's or .30's

Though you say you know very little about rifles Im thinking you may want to look into rimfires as a plinker/training rifle
you figure at minimum hunting caliber sized factory rounds are .50cents a piece up all the way to $2.50ish

CK_32
07-01-2011, 10:51 PM
remington 700

BAM!!!


But tikka t3's and savages are great shooters.. Howa rifles are on the cheap and hold up if your not looking to shoot paper and anything past 400 yards.

JUST DONT GET A 770!!!!!!!!!


Thats coming from a remington fan boy. So that should tell you something

Droppin Deuces
07-01-2011, 11:06 PM
BAM!!!


But tikka t3's and savages are great shooters.. Howa rifles are on the cheap and hold up if your not looking to shoot paper and anything past 400 yards.

JUST DONT GET A 770!!!!!!!!!


Thats coming from a remington fan boy. So that should tell you something

Do you have any real experience with these brands or are you just repeating what the internet told you? I'm curious because I'm looking to pick up a decent bolt action and was actually considering a Howa heavy barrel varminter. I read and hear much more positive than negative about these. But I figure if you're knowledgeable, then maybe I can get some info from you.

bob7122
07-01-2011, 11:14 PM
savage .308, mosin nagant, lever action .30-30, if your looking for and AR hunting type rifle get a .308 (i would like to get a 6.5 but don't know if they have soft nose)if you have a nice budget get yourself a ruger gunsite scout. or .338 lapua:43::D

Javi
07-01-2011, 11:30 PM
Check out the Savage Axis. Comes in various calibers & with or without a scope and at a friendly price:

http://www.frontierfirearms.ca/images/edgexp.png

I should probably buy one soon myself but saving up for an evil, black rifle first.

Bud11
07-02-2011, 4:15 AM
Tikka or Savage or Weatherby Vanguard in 308win with a 3-9X40 or 3.5X10X40 Leupold scope will do you very well. Plus you can get surplus ammo for it and get more shooting in for lees money.

I hunt Wy/Nevada/Ca and plan to hunt Col in the near future. I have used many different guns/cartridges but the 308 would do what I needed and these 3 brands are what I would buy today. I have other brands and many different cartridges but if I were buying today it would be a Tikka in 308 for my first rifle. Fourty years ago I would have said 30-06 but the 308win with 150-165gr bullets will take anything you will hunt.

As you get more into it you may want to expand your cartridge selection and such but you would not need to.

Thanks, I will check those out to start. Bud

Bud11
07-02-2011, 7:47 AM
Check out the Savage Axis. Comes in various calibers & with or without a scope and at a friendly price:

http://www.frontierfirearms.ca/images/edgexp.png

I should probably buy one soon myself but saving up for an evil, black rifle first.

Checked out the Savage Edge/Axis XP with scope in 308 Win. Looks like it is reasonably priced and received some good reviews, especially from first time rifle guys. Bud

Bud11
07-02-2011, 8:10 PM
Didn't realize since looking online that so many calibers and cartridge sizes are available. No clue which would be best for me. The 308 seems pretty big - the 223 looks a little tamer if recoil matches cartridge size. Any other thoughts to help a rifle newbie out? Bud

Drivedabizness
07-02-2011, 10:08 PM
Main considerations:

Game you will hunt - If you want to hunt elk you have to start with something like 270 or better.

Deer/antelope and distances under 300 yards (vast majority of shots on deer in CA are under 100 yards) .243 works very well.

Your budget: There are some very good quality rifles (like Savage) that can be had at great prices. Check out a place like Big 5 - they carry "package" guns that comes with a bore-sighted scope. I bought one in .243 years ago at a WalMart in NM - shoots dime size groups at 100 yards. I paid something like $275 then - I think you can get them on sales for under $500 now.

Your ability - Magnums from the bench can really beat you up - especially if you are a new shooter and don't have a lot of technique. Shoot something that won't make you flinch. You owe it to the game you hunt to make clean, ethical kills.

There are lots of great choices. Invest the time and energy to figure out what's important to you and then go do it.

Have fun.

VytamenC Tactical
07-02-2011, 10:16 PM
Take a look at CZ, excellent rifles and triggers.

+1 cz makes the best factory trigger period. they are great hunting rifles also. i also really like thompson center arms. the encore prohunter is a great gun and if you want to change calibers you can at the drop of a hat. just buy a new barrel and it take about 10 minutes to change.

Freeballer
07-02-2011, 10:33 PM
Remington 700.

Joe
07-02-2011, 11:11 PM
tikka t3 lite in .308

Iskra
07-02-2011, 11:32 PM
Drivedabusiness made a great point - which was basically be honest with yourself.

I'm a 3rd generation Californian and lifelong hunter. I'm an Army vet and 6'3", 225. I could easily handle something that feeds the hunter's ego... but I shoot an M70 in .270 Win. Bigger rounds beat up the game, and I'm just not interested in shooting a bear or a lion (us apex predators need to watch out for each other, IMO). And for deer, pigs, elk, and coyotes, its a great round. Very flat-shooting and dependable.

My advice (beyond being honest with yourself) would be to buy a bolt-action rifle. Just the pause to work the action will make you a better shooter. When you go to the range (and 99% of the rounds you fire as a beginning hunter will be at ranges) you won't get anything out of 'popping caps' but if you learn to work the bolt and reaquire the target with every shot, then every shot will count. And when you go on that first hunt, you are really walking into a one-shot day. Learn to make it count.

Winchester M70, Remington 700, Tikka, Savage... just get yourself a good, reliable, easy-to-maintain, accurate bolt gun. Somewhere between .243 and .308. And put 1000 rounds through it so when you go on that first hunt, you know how to make it count.

CK_32
07-03-2011, 1:05 AM
Do you have any real experience with these brands or are you just repeating what the internet told you? I'm curious because I'm looking to pick up a decent bolt action and was actually considering a Howa heavy barrel varminter. I read and hear much more positive than negative about these. But I figure if you're knowledgeable, then maybe I can get some info from you.

With the T3 I'm going off word of mouth and a lot of trustable reviews. The 700 which I own and a savage which a buddy of mine owns I have seen shoot several times. Never shot it my self.

As for the Howa I was out in the desert and a few guys rolled up and were oogling my and my groups guns and the things we were doing and asked if they could join. We happily said sure. They saw me shooting my 700 and asked to have a face off with their howa with a leupold mark4 scope on it. Keep in kind my 700 is sub $1200 build with $400 glass. Anyways so we did our thing and it held up until we started going past 400 yards they were getting pretty wide groups. Neither of us were the best shooters and this was my 2nd time out with my 700 so you can't fully blame it on the shooters because I wasn't too good at shooting this rifle yet. For the price they are decent rifles but they are very hit and miss. I've seen some do pretty well and like the one I shot against not so much. But for the price it is a decent buy. But like I said anything past 400 they start to fall behind and aren't the best of rifles. But is still not a bad rifle there is just better choices.


And yes I shot it my self a few times and I didn't like the stock so I can't say it was the rifle. But out of 4 people it seemed to fall off around the mid ranges. Both guns were 308 on white box ammo as well. So there wasn't any ammo advantages.

Droppin Deuces
07-03-2011, 9:41 AM
Seriously? Random dudes show up in the middle of the desert and ask to do a gun comparo, you aren't very good shooters but have better results with one gun than the other and that's how you get your information that Howas can't shoot past 400? What model was it? Stock? Barrel?

Thefeeder
07-03-2011, 9:57 AM
Drivedabusiness made a great point - which was basically be honest with yourself.

I'm a 3rd generation Californian and lifelong hunter. I'm an Army vet and 6'3", 225. I could easily handle something that feeds the hunter's ego... but I shoot an M70 in .270 Win. Bigger rounds beat up the game, and I'm just not interested in shooting a bear or a lion (us apex predators need to watch out for each other, IMO). And for deer, pigs, elk, and coyotes, its a great round. Very flat-shooting and dependable.

My advice (beyond being honest with yourself) would be to buy a bolt-action rifle. Just the pause to work the action will make you a better shooter. When you go to the range (and 99% of the rounds you fire as a beginning hunter will be at ranges) you won't get anything out of 'popping caps' but if you learn to work the bolt and reaquire the target with every shot, then every shot will count. And when you go on that first hunt, you are really walking into a one-shot day. Learn to make it count.

Winchester M70, Remington 700, Tikka, Savage... just get yourself a good, reliable, easy-to-maintain, accurate bolt gun. Somewhere between .243 and .308. And put 1000 rounds through it so when you go on that first hunt, you know how to make it count.


Skip the rest and read the above post. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Its a one shot hunt....even if you have 10 rounds in the mag.

Buy any rifle you don't mind lumping all day ......use the bench to sight in then get off the bench and learn to shoot without it.

slick_711
07-03-2011, 10:09 AM
Didn't realize since looking online that so many calibers and cartridge sizes are available. No clue which would be best for me. The 308 seems pretty big - the 223 looks a little tamer if recoil matches cartridge size. Any other thoughts to help a rifle newbie out? Bud

.308 is not big. If you're serious that you want to hunt in Colorado and Wyoming, .308 will do the trick but is on the small side. I use .308 when I hunt here in TX and it's been just fine so far, but the deer here are much smaller than those up North. If you want a gun with reliable hunting ballistics for Deer, .270 or .30-06 are your best bet while remaining widely available. .308 is a good option to have less expensive ammo and lower recoil for your range time, but you're trading that benefit for ballistics in the field and you'll have to be absolutely on target with your shot placement.

As to brand, there are a lot of options. I'm not sure if you're looking for a "first rifle" or an "only rifle." If you want to spend a few dollars and do it right the first time, I'd look at the Rem 700, the Browning X-Bolt, the Tikka T3 Lite, the Weatherby Vanguard, the new Winchester 70s, and the Savages. The Vanguard or T3 are probably the best "bang for the buck" value wise, and both are great rifles. The others are all great rifles as well, but you'll spend a little bit more. Find a shop that carries all of them and look at them in person, see how they feel on your shoulder, their weight, balance, fit/finish (if you care how it looks).

It sounds like the first thing you need to do is decide what you want it for and how much you're going to shoot it. .308 (or even .223) makes for a great target rifle for learning the fundamentals of rifle shooting and saving money on ammo; not to mention sparing your shoulder the abuse of a long action cartridge. However, .223 is not acceptable for deer in CO/WY, and as I mentioned above, .308 is about the smallest thing that is acceptable. Wounding an animal to death, and making a clean ethical kill are not the same thing, and assuming you can shoot, the difference between the two lies mainly in your choice of cartridge.

clay32
07-03-2011, 10:19 AM
Tikka T3 Lite Stainless in .308 (recoil was a little much at first, but a Limbsaver pad made it all go away, now it's perfect) is my hunting weapon of choice. It's light (when you're carrying it all day this makes a big difference), deadly accurate, and is really well made. IMHO you can't get a better out-of-the-box gun for the money. Yes, Savages are very accurate (I've owned one and fired it plenty), but for me they're a very rough action, cosmetically and quality control wise seems like $ value is their most important factor in production.
I wouldn't mind having a T3 in .243 to go with the .308, if location wasn't an issue this one would be mine in a heartbeat:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=444144

I am in no way affiliated with the seller, just envious of his rifle!

Rob454
07-03-2011, 10:23 AM
Probably lots of 308 7mm mag 30-06 or other XX-06 270. I woudl get a 30-06 or a 7mm mag. Both are good rounds will pretty much drop anything you will hunt for and the rounds are widely available pretty much anywhere you may go hunting at.

if you are looking for a first rifle a Savage 110 would work great. Accurate and not very expensive. I bet you can get a used one in great shape for less than 350$. The nice thing about savage rifles is you can swap barrels to change calibers without the need of a gunsmith.
If you are looking for a forever rifle only rifle then you can get something else if you feel the need to spend extra money. Just so you know I have had a Savage 110 30-06 blind mag well for about 14 years or so. I have never felt the need for another rifle. I take in the brush and it gets used. I recently refinished the stock and installed a new barrel and it looks brand new again. barrel was 100$ installed and the stock refinish was free. yes its not the new sexy tactical pistol grip super dooper sniper 900 yard rifle but who cares. The most i had to take a deer or boar at was 150-250 yards away. I did take a bear at 350 yards one time
Good luck

msand951
07-03-2011, 11:21 AM
I have a Savage Big 5 combo special. model 111 30-06 cal. It was 399.
And shoots pretty good the trigger was easy to adjust by removing the stock. The only thing I didnt like is the stock but its good enough for a first hunting rifle. I reload so its shoots good with 165gr. sierra bullets.

Richard Erichsen
07-03-2011, 11:42 AM
Just bought my first gun, a S&W model 67 .38 revolver. Really enjoying it. Also just discovered the Outdoor Channel and have been watching it lately. A lot of shows on dear, antelope and elk in Montana, Colorado, Wyoming and several other places. Looks like fun to me.

So, since I am moving to Colorado later this year and own ranch land in Wyoming, what kinds of rifles and calibers are those guys shooting in the show? They never seem to mention that, although sometimes I hear what cartridge brand they have used. I have somewhat educated myself on handguns lately, but know absolutely zip about rifles and what might be a good starter one. Guess it would depend on the game, so lets say antelope or dear to start as I know elk are bigger.

What says you??

Any bolt action from Savage, Howa, Tikka, Weatherby, Remington or Winchester in any of the common short action calibers, priced in the $600-$700 range, would do nicely and serve you a lifetime. Synthetic stocks cost less than fancy walnut obviously, but are often the first thing to be upgraded if you find you really like the rifle. 2" MOA @ 100 yards is good enough for any decent hunting rifle and all of the rifles in the price range above will do that or better with quality ammo.

For chamberings, I like .243, .308, 7mm-08, .260 and .338, more or less in that order. They are all based on the .308 parent case (short action) and thus a rifle chambered in any of these calibers can be (usually) inexpensively re-chambered by a simple barrel change rather than buying a whole new rifle if you find that you've "moved up" from a lower caliber to a larger one.

Probably the perfect first rifle caliber is the .243 Winchester. It is a great all arounder and can take varmints like marmot, ground hog and coyote as well as mountain goats and deer size game with proper bullet selection in a heavier weight. It's a bit light for elk, but it's been done with excellent shot placement, heavy bullets and reasonably short ranges (though questionable ethically when more appropriate choices exist for elk sized animals) .243 is not just popular domestically, it's popular Internationally, with ammo sold in every gun store from Cape Town to Santiago.

None of these calibers are of the new fangled "short magnums", or magnums of any kind. That's deliberate. Probably the least shot and most expensive rifles in the gun store are magnums. Other than bragging rights, it's a terrible first rifle in my opinion and best bought as a 3rd or 4th rifle for very specific hunting scenarios. My preference is to stay away from "boutique" (proprietary or odd-ball one vendor calibers) rounds that offer little in the way of performance improvement, but cost an arm and a leg to shoot and limit both your choice of rifles and ammunition.

.308 and 7mm 08 are great for larger game, with 7mm having flatter trajectory due to it's higher ballistic coefficient bullets (longer, more streamlined bullets). Deer and elk rounds. Of the two, .308 is even more common than .243, but I really like the 7mm-08 Rem's for longer reach while having lower recoil. You won't find 7mm-08 in every gun store, but 7 mm rounds are available in a wide variety of weights and constructions for all common deer like the white tail and "muleys" (mule-deer) you find in the Rocky Mountains. Wherever a magnum might be used, a 7mm-08 is probably a better choice for rifle and ammo cost and availability reasons.

.260 is a ballistic cousin to the famous 6.5x55mm Swedish, a caliber I learned to shoot on before I even fired my first .22 LR in the Boy Scouts. If you don't have relatives up North, you may not even have heard of 6.5x55mm. It's a light recoiling round like the .243 but better matched to larger game and a bit overkill for varmints. There is plenty of overlap from the .243 into what .260 does well, which is why it's near the bottom for me, great round though it may be.

Finally there is the .338, a good brush gun with it's heavier bullets choices and a nearly ideal medium range elk caliber. I don't own a rifle in this caliber, but I've borrowed a friends rifle when the terrain and game demanded it.

For scopes, I'd recommend a $300-400 budget for a mid-grade scope with either a fixed 4 or 6 power for intermediate ranges (until you find the scope is holding you back) or a variable 2x-10x power and some good rings. The 30 mm tube is the most common and you can't go wrong with it.

A simple, but good sling will help lug the rifle, but it's not a deal breaker if the rifle you choose has no sling loops. You can either fit the sling swivels yourself if you are at all handy, or have a local smith do it for $30-50. Another option is a rifle scabbard with a carry strap which can protect the finish of fine rifles/scopes when you are tracking through scrub brush.

Good luck.

jeepnik
07-03-2011, 11:45 AM
The caliber wars have gone on for generations. Probably the biggest is 270 vs 30-06. Both work fine on game up to elk, if you do your part and shoot at ranges appropriate for the caliber. You pays your money and takes your choice.

The .308 is great in that it's got sufficient ballistics for the above mentioned game. So, any of the three will work just fine.

As to the rifle, bolt actions are generally (there are exceptions) a tad more inherently accurate (solid lock up and such). So I'd say go with a bolt gun, from any of the major manufacturers. Be it Remington, Ruger, Savage, Tika, Winchester or what have you. Unless you are an exceptional shooter, all will out shoot you.

Something to consider is the materials of manufacturer. Stock wise, wood with lots of grain looks good, but if you spend much time in inclement weather, synthetic is better. Blued still is supposed to "glare" less (personally, the jury is still out) than stainless, but again, stainless is more weather resistant. Both need regular maintenance, as stainless is "more" rust resistant, not rust free.

Optics, again, pick a major manufacturer, and you'll do fine. But if you can, actually take it outside and look through it at a distant object. Eyes are a funny thing, what works really well for one person doesn't for another. Generally speaking, a 3x9 power scope is considered "standard" today. There are many good ones out there. Oh, and match the cost of the scope to the cost of the rifle. The greatest scope in the world won't make a so-so rifle shoot any better. Truthfully, the rifle/scope combos from the rifle makers are usually pretty darned good matchings.

Pay particular attention to eye relief. Make sure it's mounted so that the view isn't vignetted (black around the edge of the viewing circle). If you do not have the tools or skills, pay someone to mount it. You'll likely save yourself much frustration.

I could go on for hours, but once you get a rifle come back with specific questions, and you'll likely get some darned good answers.

CK_32
07-03-2011, 11:56 AM
Seriously? Random dudes show up in the middle of the desert and ask to do a gun comparo, you aren't very good shooters but have better results with one gun than the other and that's how you get your information that Howas can't shoot past 400? What model was it? Stock? Barrel?

For one I never said they can't.... I said they start to spread out after that. 2 yea that's how I figure out how guns handle is by SHOOTING them and watching other shooters shoot theirs. It was the 1500 in 308.


Since shooting it and talking to owners of another gun and doing research on the rifle and shoot side by side and with a few shooters over one is obviously is not the proper way to figure out how the do.... Please teach me how do you compare rifles?

Osmosis? :shrug:

Droppin Deuces
07-03-2011, 12:17 PM
For one I never said they can't.... I said they start to spread out after that. 2 yea that's how I figure out how guns handle is by SHOOTING them and watching other shooters shoot theirs. It was the 1500 in 308.


Since shooting it and talking to owners of another gun and doing research on the rifle and shoot side by side and with a few shooters over one is obviously is not the proper way to figure out how the do.... Please teach me how do you compare rifles?

Osmosis? :shrug:

Admitting that you aren't a good shooter, then claiming one rifle to be better than another after shooting them in an uncontrolled test is a terrible way to compare. Oh, and now you've talked to other owners too? Which model? Which configuration? Did you do an actual accuracy test and figure out what kind of groups it shoots or did you just miss a couple of times and say 'this rifle is no good?' Did you even sight the gun in?
This is starting to sound like when you say BCM is awesome because the one you own works.

So much for getting good info from CalGuns.

CK_32
07-03-2011, 12:42 PM
Admitting that you aren't a good shooter, then claiming one rifle to be better than another after shooting them in an uncontrolled test is a terrible way to compare. Oh, and now you've talked to other owners too? Which model? Which configuration? Did you do an actual accuracy test or did you just miss a couple of times and say 'this rifle is no good?'
This is starting to sound like when you say BCM is awesome because the one you own works.

So much for getting good info from CalGuns.

Its called being modest... I'm no competition shooter but if that's what you need to pick out to win this then sure I'll say I'm a .5 MOA shooter on a decent day and can hit a 10" x 10" steel plate at 800 yards 5 of 10 times with a $1200 budget rifle so you tell me is that a good shooter to your standards? And any shooting is uncontrolled tests unless your god and cancel all elements and variables. We shot paper at 100 yards and was pretty much about the same thing and shot at cans tannerite and a steel plate from 200 to 600 yards and the Remington hit and the Howa didn't come close and when the how's actually did hit the steel it seemed to be more spread than the 700 was.

And no sh*t I talked to them did you think we just sat down next to each other in the middle of the desert for 5 hours and didn't say a word...?? Sorry my only time shooting a howa next to a 700 I didn't get to fully field strip and shoot from a bench and break the rifles down. Sorry my experience isn't up to your standards to state an opinion... Well since you know more about all these rifles how about you tell me what tests and experience shooting these rifles you have done with your extensive testing. I'm waiting to hear your testing because mine aren't up to par reason your bashing my OPINION. And once again I didn't say the rifle was no good as in the rifle can't do it's job as a hunting rifle. I just stated there are better choices if you can but if you can only afford that then it will work. Read my other post I said if you can only afford the Howa it is still a rifle.

And as for the BCM comment I have held and messed around with tons of ARs in one sitting and have shot over 800 rounds in my AR in one day to be able to say BCM is very well build with the specs and the overall finish of the rifles and function... I think that is good enough for me to say BCM is up to par and is AWSOME. but for your sake I'll be sure to wright full essays on anything I post for now on because my BCM is awsome comments are up to your standards once again.


And so much for not being post bashed on calguns. Because obviously some calgunners are gun professionals and do extensive testing on everything and can't live with others opinions if they don't agree or like the answer.

CK_32
07-03-2011, 12:53 PM
I have a few posts in the hand gun general discussion and reloading threads if you'd like to go bash them too... ;)

Droppin Deuces
07-03-2011, 1:00 PM
Oh, my bad. In your other post you said you had "talked to owners of another gun." I guess that doesn't mean the same to you as it does to...well...everyone else.
Just admit you're full of it. Your experiences change with every post(kind of like how you put over 1000 rounds through your BCM one day and now it's 800).
Oh, and you forgot to mention that you hit 10x10 plates at 800 yards on the first shot. While standing. Right? BTW, anyone can hit steel at that range after walking 10 shots onto the target.
If you want someone to buy a Remington because that's what you have, just say so. Don't come up with a BS story about how random dudes showed up in the desert with a Howa and asked to have a shoot-off.

SR-71 BLACKBIRD
07-03-2011, 1:06 PM
Here is a rifle cartridge comparison that might help you make your decision.

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff320/planetstation/Rifle-Cartridge-Lineup.jpg

I'm not sure why so many people like the .308. Seems like a small round.

From right to left:
.308, .30-06, .300winmag, .300ultramag, .30-378Weatherby

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff320/planetstation/30_calibers308_30-06_300winmag_300ultramag_30-378Weatherby.jpg

Sako and Kimber also make some nice rifles if cost is not a factor. If I had the money I would have a Sako Finnlight in the gun safe.

wchutt
07-03-2011, 1:10 PM
If picking one rifle, it would be a 30-06, any reputable manufacturer. Consider the finish, if it will be used as a truck rifle on your property consider stainless and synthetic, wont have the looks, but easy to care for.

762.DEFENSE
07-03-2011, 1:22 PM
FNH PBR in .308
http://www.snipercentral.com/images/reviews/pbr1.jpg

CK_32
07-03-2011, 1:23 PM
Oh, my bad. In your other post you said you had "talked to owners of another gun." I guess that doesn't mean the same to you as it does to...well...everyone else.
Just admit you're full of it. Your experiences change with every post(kind of like how you put over 1000 rounds through your BCM one day and now it's 800).
Oh, and you forgot to mention that you hit 10x10 plates at 800 yards on the first shot. While standing. Right? BTW, anyone can hit steel at that range after walking 10 shots onto the target.
If you want someone to buy a Remington because that's what you have, just say so. Don't come up with a BS story about how random dudes showed up in the desert with a Howa and asked to have a shoot-off.


Do you even read my posts..........? I suggested a savage and tikka yet I don't own either... And if I was such a Remington seller then why would I tell him don't touch the 770. Now your just getting desperate to make me look like a fool when this was originally about one thing and now I put that to rest and then you have to pick something totally differant and the I put that attack down then then your onto something else and now instead of questioning my experience now your targeting my videos shooting skill and what ever else you can think of. This arguement is stupid I'm done.

Droppin Deuces
07-03-2011, 1:31 PM
Videos? WTH are you talking about? I'm talking about the inconsistencies in your posts.

CK_32
07-03-2011, 1:32 PM
I'm not sure why so many people like the .308. Seems like a small round.



I went with the 308 due to the military using it to be honest. Because when I was first getting into guns I wanted a SHTF rifle and the 308 was all over and I saw it had good put down power at the linger ranges. But the more I learn about ballistics there is plenty of better cartrages out there but I'm still happy with the 308 for SHTF stuff if it ever comes also it is found just about any where for a decent price. But if I could do it over again I'd go with a better cartage like the 6.5 or 270.

To me the 308 is still a good combo for put down/target shooting. Not the best in either category but good in both.

CK_32
07-03-2011, 1:34 PM
Oh, and you forgot to mention that you hit 10x10 plates at 800 yards on the first shot. While standing. Right?

I have never posted about that. But hey I have a video of it in my sig hmmm....

toby
07-03-2011, 1:36 PM
Get a Winchester,FNH..ie new or old,Montana,Kimber,Cooper and have one of the best hunting rifles ever built....

SR-71 BLACKBIRD
07-03-2011, 1:47 PM
JUST DONT GET A 770!!!!!!!!!



I second that. I bought one as a Christmas present to myself. Sold it a month later. That was one rough bolt. My Rem 700's bolt is as smooth as butter.

aermotor
07-03-2011, 1:55 PM
Tikka T3 Lite in .308 or smaller. Insanely smooth action and one of the best out of box triggers on the market.

Droppin Deuces
07-03-2011, 3:52 PM
I have never posted about that. But hey I have a video of it in my sig hmmm....

Actually, I was joking about the standing and first shot stuff. The fact that you supposedly have a video of yourself ALLEGEDLY doing that on the first shot while standing is hilarious. How many takes did it take to hit on the first shot?

Oceans
07-03-2011, 5:57 PM
I got a Savage Axis in .30-06 for $260. Put a clearance scope on it for $50 then painted it. It's a great little rifle for the price. I saw a lot of people putting it down on forums but I don't see any problems with it. I'm no expert by any means and have never owned any other bolts but to get a scoped rifle for under $400 seems good to me. I did the 50 cent trigger job on it and it has a nice crisp pull. No accutrigger and the pull isn't that light but it breaks clean and there's no extra travel. The thing that makes it seem cheap is the bolt. I messed around with my buddies Parker Hale and you can definitely tell a huge difference. Overall it's something worth checking into, especially if you don't want to spend too much.

Bryansix
07-03-2011, 8:02 PM
So this is a serious question. Don't people hunt with .22 lr rifles and so wouldn't an AR type (5.56mm) also work for hunting? I mean I guess if it is REALLY big game then you would need more but for range, either of those rounds gets you plenty.

I do understand why you wouldn't want to use a rifle that shoots handgun ammo because of the range issue but really wouldn't any rifle ammo work for hunting most game?

Bud11
07-03-2011, 8:16 PM
Any bolt action from Savage, Howa, Tikka, Weatherby, Remington or Winchester in any of the common short action calibers, priced in the $600-$700 range, would do nicely and serve you a lifetime. Synthetic stocks cost less than fancy walnut obviously, but are often the first thing to be upgraded if you find you really like the rifle. 2" MOA @ 100 yards is good enough for any decent hunting rifle and all of the rifles in the price range above will do that or better with quality ammo.

For chamberings, I like .243, .308, 7mm-08, .260 and .338, more or less in that order. They are all based on the .308 parent case (short action) and thus a rifle chambered in any of these calibers can be (usually) inexpensively re-chambered by a simple barrel change rather than buying a whole new rifle if you find that you've "moved up" from a lower caliber to a larger one.

Probably the perfect first rifle caliber is the .243 Winchester. It is a great all arounder and can take varmints like marmot, ground hog and coyote as well as mountain goats and deer size game with proper bullet selection in a heavier weight. It's a bit light for elk, but it's been done with excellent shot placement, heavy bullets and reasonably short ranges (though questionable ethically when more appropriate choices exist for elk sized animals) .243 is not just popular domestically, it's popular Internationally, with ammo sold in every gun store from Cape Town to Santiago.

None of these calibers are of the new fangled "short magnums", or magnums of any kind. That's deliberate. Probably the least shot and most expensive rifles in the gun store are magnums. Other than bragging rights, it's a terrible first rifle in my opinion and best bought as a 3rd or 4th rifle for very specific hunting scenarios. My preference is to stay away from "boutique" (proprietary or odd-ball one vendor calibers) rounds that offer little in the way of performance improvement, but cost an arm and a leg to shoot and limit both your choice of rifles and ammunition.

.308 and 7mm 08 are great for larger game, with 7mm having flatter trajectory due to it's higher ballistic coefficient bullets (longer, more streamlined bullets). Deer and elk rounds. Of the two, .308 is even more common than .243, but I really like the 7mm-08 Rem's for longer reach while having lower recoil. You won't find 7mm-08 in every gun store, but 7 mm rounds are available in a wide variety of weights and constructions for all common deer like the white tail and "muleys" (mule-deer) you find in the Rocky Mountains. Wherever a magnum might be used, a 7mm-08 is probably a better choice for rifle and ammo cost and availability reasons.

.260 is a ballistic cousin to the famous 6.5x55mm Swedish, a caliber I learned to shoot on before I even fired my first .22 LR in the Boy Scouts. If you don't have relatives up North, you may not even have heard of 6.5x55mm. It's a light recoiling round like the .243 but better matched to larger game and a bit overkill for varmints. There is plenty of overlap from the .243 into what .260 does well, which is why it's near the bottom for me, great round though it may be.

Finally there is the .338, a good brush gun with it's heavier bullets choices and a nearly ideal medium range elk caliber. I don't own a rifle in this caliber, but I've borrowed a friends rifle when the terrain and game demanded it.

For scopes, I'd recommend a $300-400 budget for a mid-grade scope with either a fixed 4 or 6 power for intermediate ranges (until you find the scope is holding you back) or a variable 2x-10x power and some good rings. The 30 mm tube is the most common and you can't go wrong with it.

A simple, but good sling will help lug the rifle, but it's not a deal breaker if the rifle you choose has no sling loops. You can either fit the sling swivels yourself if you are at all handy, or have a local smith do it for $30-50. Another option is a rifle scabbard with a carry strap which can protect the finish of fine rifles/scopes when you are tracking through scrub brush.

Good luck.

Thanks, really good information. Bud

Richard Erichsen
07-03-2011, 8:36 PM
Here is a rifle cartridge comparison that might help you make your decision.

I'm not sure why so many people like the .308. Seems like a small round.

From right to left:
.308, .30-06, .300winmag, .300ultramag, .30-378Weatherby

Sako and Kimber also make some nice rifles if cost is not a factor. If I had the money I would have a Sako Finnlight in the gun safe.

It's all relative. Bell used to take African elephants with a 7mm Mauser doing brain shots through the ear canal. Most would consider that a very small round for harvesting multi-ton beasts, but it worked well enough for an expert hunter looking for presentation of a very small, fleeting target on an otherwise massive animal. Pick the caliber for the game and choose something you can buy a lot of and practice until shoulder and fingers are sore (or you can't hit the target any more!).

.308 is a great caliber because it's a versatile round for all but the smallest and the very largest of game animals. .308 also makes an excellent foundation for a variety of smaller and larger calibers in a compact package. In real terms, .308 is the equivalent of the .30-06 and in most factory loadings, they are interchangeable. .30-06 has a reputation for cleanly harvesting every large game animal in North America, with the possible exception of Grizzly bears, .308 can do the same up to bullets of about 200 grains before the smaller powder volume of .308 becomes an impediment.

In my opinion, magnums are often a solution in search of a problem. For most shooters, they have too much recoil, cost too much to shoot, limit rifle selection and ammunition availability while providing little real benefit. Adding additional maximum point blank range with the heaviest bullets int the caliber for longer effective range and/or energy downrange when it is likely outside of what's realistic for a new hunter just learning the ropes. I advise steering clear.

A more specialized rifle in a "boutique" caliber might be a good 3rd or 4th purchase to fit specific criterion where concerns of ammunition and or rifle cost may be of lesser importance. They tend to make poor "go to" rifles in general.

You still need to practice with your rifle to become proficient and large quantities of more commonly available calibers with less kick will encourage practice and increase confidence. .308 fits the bill, even more so the lighter kicking .243 is a great confidence builder and for gopher sized to deer sized game, it's a great round.

R

Richard Erichsen
07-03-2011, 9:35 PM
So this is a serious question. Don't people hunt with .22 lr rifles and so wouldn't an AR type (5.56mm) also work for hunting? I mean I guess if it is REALLY big game then you would need more but for range, either of those rounds gets you plenty.

I do understand why you wouldn't want to use a rifle that shoots handgun ammo because of the range issue but really wouldn't any rifle ammo work for hunting most game?

There are two reasons: One is legality for a given caliber to be used for specific game animals, the other is what is ethical even in the absence of any legal requirement.

A skilled hunter can take whitetail deer with .22 LR at short ranges, but the skills required are developed over a lifetime and there is still the question of the ethical harvesting of game. Even good hunters make bad hits on occasion and bullets don't always do exactly what is expected of them.

Professional pelt hunters are known to use the smallest (and cheapest) caliber to hunt game with to make for fewer/smaller holes in the pelt where other methods (such as traps) are prohibited and their choice of caliber is not otherwise illegal. Hunters with the level of skill required to take deer size (and larger) game with varmint calibers will have their share of misses and very poor hits that resulted in either developing expert tracking skills to follow their wounded quarry, or lose their animal entirely.

No ethical hunter wants to bumble shot placement and cause a gut shot or have a bullet deflect off of bone and miss all vital organs, but it happens. Larger calibers that are more appropriate for the size of the game being hunted are tools to reduce the number of marginal hits that resulted in wounded game that stumbles away. While there is no guarantee, a bigger bore and a heavier built bullet acts as something of an insurance policy that the animal will go down as quickly as possible without having to follow a blood trail and finish the job.

The goal of hunting, ultimately, is cleanly harvesting the game. Removing the maximum number of variables that can negatively influence the outcome is not only reasonable, it's essential. Just because you "can" hunt deer (assuming no law prevents it) with a .22 LR does not mean you should and that goes for the expert hunter as well. Pick the right tool for the job.

The .223 (5.56x45 mm) is classified as a varmint round, that is, suitable primarily for game under 100 lbs. Some of the very heavy 77-80 grain rounds can push that envelope, but it's not a round well matched to a 400 lb+ elk and a reasonable hunter wouldn't hunt game of that size with a rifle in that caliber. Many states have laws which explicitly limit the caliber a hunter may use for a specific species of game animal for just this reason. Some still do not permit hunting deer with .223 and certainly not .22 LR.

The .22 LR is best employed for the very small end of the scale, under 25 lbs. While you are learning to be an expert shot (and learning how bullets behave in different critters) you will also no doubt be wounding game and losing at least some of that game in the process. Most of lost game animals will die from blood loss, or if it's a particularly poor hit it will be much slower and death will be caused by infection caused by the injury. A larger caliber may have turned that marginal hit into a successful kill without all of the unnecessary suffering.

Also, bullets used for home defense, police or military applications are not well suited for hunting.

R

Javi
07-03-2011, 10:13 PM
I'm not a hunter but this is excellent information!

Flouncer
07-04-2011, 5:31 AM
Virtually any bolt gun from a reputable manufacturer. Any caliber based on a .308 or .30-06.

Rem
Winchester
Ruger
Savage
TC Venture
Marlin

Pleas dont' buy Jap or European guns... :mad:

we have our own guns and jobs......

.243
25-06
6.5 x 55 or .260 Rem
any 7mm 7mm-08 is perfect
any .308 caliber and that includes the 30-06

Above that and recoil gets nasty......... Avoid the Magnums if learning to shoot Recoil = Flinch ......

I'm not sure why so many people like the .308. Seems like a small round. Please disregard this comment.

vega
07-04-2011, 7:09 AM
Good infos here.....

Nobody mention Mossberg 4x4, not good for hunting or plinking?

ZX-10R
07-04-2011, 7:36 AM
I have experience with Savage and Remy. Both are awesome brands...However, if you do the search online for stocks, magazine mods, etc. You will see that the Remy M700 hasa huge following and more aftermarket parts than anyone. I regularly shoot my friends M700... It is a .5 MOA rifle out of the box. Great platform for upgrades which will even make it more accurate. However, if you just want to buy a rifle that you will not shoot 200yrds or greater, you will not go wrong with them. Savages are also awesome. I am in the same situation as you but am leaning toward an M700...I had a Remy XR-100 which I believe was more accurate than the M700 and any Savage I ever shot including an FCP.

Bryansix
07-04-2011, 8:26 AM
...
The goal of hunting, ultimately, is cleanly harvesting the game. Removing the maximum number of variables that can negatively influence the outcome is not only reasonable, it's essential. Just because you "can" hunt deer (assuming no law prevents it) with a .22 LR does not mean you should and that goes for the expert hunter as well. Pick the right tool for the job.

...
R

See this shows how little I now about hunting. I had no idea that there would be laws which require you to use a larger and more powerful round for hunting certain game. I can understand where these laws came from with your pelt example but I just had no idea.

As a side note: anytime the media says something about "large caliber rifles" you can be sure they are not talking about hunting rifles which actually are large caliber but probably something in .223 or 5.56mm

Richard Erichsen
07-04-2011, 10:23 AM
Virtually any bolt gun from a reputable manufacturer. Any caliber based on a .308 or .30-06.

Rem
Winchester
Ruger
Savage
TC Venture
Marlin

Pleas dont' buy Jap or European guns... :mad:

we have our own guns and jobs......

.243
25-06
6.5 x 55 or .260 Rem
any 7mm 7mm-08 is perfect
any .308 caliber and that includes the 30-06

Above that and recoil gets nasty......... Avoid the Magnums if learning to shoot Recoil = Flinch ......

Please disregard this comment.

I couldn't agree more. Magnums are a niche tool for very big game, or very long ranges. I've yet to see many situations where a non-magnum .308 or .308 based short-action caliber wouldn't be more appropriate 90%+ of the time. Those magnums (and the new "short magnums" to stuff more FPS into a shorter action) may help sell new rifles, but they sure aren't reflected in domestic ammunition sales by caliber as anything more than a blip. This goes to my theory that most magnums are bought on false promises and undeserved praise, put in a safe by their owners, bragged about over a beer, but rarely fired.

As for "buy American" I agree, but things have become complicated. Many Euro brands actually build product on assembly lines in the US and many previously American companies are now owned by European conglomerates. Even the lower end of the Weatherby line are built on Howa actions made in Japan. What is the new metric to determine what's domestic and what isn't? You could apply this to the automotive and appliance industries the same way.

In general, I don't think you can rely on a familiar name. I do research on where my weapons are built, and at least try to get down to the details of who made the trigger group, who cut the barrel and fabricated the bolt which can be completely different suppliers from all over the world (increasingly Brazil, Pakistan, China, Singapore, Indonesia, Turkey and elsewhere). It's not at all easy to figure out what was made where (on purpose) and it can change several times in a given year, following exchange rates, labor and commodity prices for materials.

For me, if a weapon is more than 60% foreign made, I look elsewhere unless I have a very specific objective in mind and no easy alternatives otherwise. You can't even buy a brand new Springfield Armory M1A that isn't chock full of foreign parts, many of them not half as good as increasingly rare stocks of parts made in the early 1960s. Globalization is all about driving down price and often quality along with it. I'm doing my part to navigate the complexity, but a daunting task it is.

R

Bud11
07-04-2011, 8:12 PM
I couldn't agree more. Magnums are a niche tool for very big game, or very long ranges. I've yet to see many situations where a non-magnum .308 or .308 based short-action caliber wouldn't be more appropriate 90%+ of the time. Those magnums (and the new "short magnums" to stuff more FPS into a shorter action) may help sell new rifles, but they sure aren't reflected in domestic ammunition sales by caliber as anything more than a blip. This goes to my theory that most magnums are bought on false promises and undeserved praise, put in a safe by their owners, bragged about over a beer, but rarely fired.

As for "buy American" I agree, but things have become complicated. Many Euro brands actually build product on assembly lines in the US and many previously American companies are now owned by European conglomerates. Even the lower end of the Weatherby line are built on Howa actions made in Japan. What is the new metric to determine what's domestic and what isn't? You could apply this to the automotive and appliance industries the same way.

In general, I don't think you can rely on a familiar name. I do research on where my weapons are built, and at least try to get down to the details of who made the trigger group, who cut the barrel and fabricated the bolt which can be completely different suppliers from all over the world (increasingly Brazil, Pakistan, China, Singapore, Indonesia, Turkey and elsewhere). It's not at all easy to figure out what was made where (on purpose) and it can change several times in a given year, following exchange rates, labor and commodity prices for materials.

For me, if a weapon is more than 60% foreign made, I look elsewhere unless I have a very specific objective in mind and no easy alternatives otherwise. You can't even buy a brand new Springfield Armory M1A that isn't chock full of foreign parts, many of them not half as good as increasingly rare stocks of parts made in the early 1960s. Globalization is all about driving down price and often quality along with it. I'm doing my part to navigate the complexity, but a daunting task it is.

R


Good info. from both of you. I will eventually buy one from one of the American companies, and saw an article in a magazine at the mall today about Savage and their people/process. Looks like I might start with one of theirs but still undecided. Reasonably priced and fairly good reviews too. Bud

taloft
07-04-2011, 10:33 PM
700 SPS™ “Buckmasters” Edition would be my choice. It is fairly inexpensive. It comes in 6 or 7 calibers. Synthetic stock holds up well and keeps it light, a major plus when hiking all day.

I recommend .30-06 for new hunters that don't reload. Everyone carries .30-06. You can find a very wide variety of factory hunting rounds in all different types and weights that will allow you to hunt just about anything in North America. My second choice would be .270 Winchester. It is an excellent fast flat shooting round.

BigNick
07-04-2011, 10:44 PM
Get a tikka and be done.

BigNick
07-04-2011, 10:45 PM
30-06 will be a good round for everything.

rojocorsa
07-04-2011, 11:28 PM
I've always thought my Lee-Enfield would make a decent hunting rifle. And lol, mine is a Savage "US property" version--so I bought American. ;)


FWIW, The Enfield would initially cost less and the .303 would probably cost the same at the other hunting ammo. IMO, the No.4 Mk.1 has the best sights out of the classic bolt action milsurps. But the 1903A3 could possibly be a contender (but I've never seen or handled one).

Richard Erichsen
07-05-2011, 9:07 AM
Good info. from both of you. I will eventually buy one from one of the American companies, and saw an article in a magazine at the mall today about Savage and their people/process. Looks like I might start with one of theirs but still undecided. Reasonably priced and fairly good reviews too. Bud

Budd11,

Winchester Model 70, pre '64 model, great rifle. I'd actually get one used and have it checked out by a local smith - cheaper and often better product than buying brand new these days. This model is essentially a commercial Mauser 1898, plenty of aftermarket parts available.

R