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View Full Version : Kel-Tec KSG vs Saiga 12


hairtumor
06-30-2011, 11:53 AM
looking to get a shotgun, I like the look of the KSG but the price of the Saiga is coming back down after the panic buying. Don't want to skeet shoot, just want a bad *** SHTF weapon :43:

tgriffin
06-30-2011, 11:56 AM
Considering that the KSG might as well be vaporware at the moment, if you are looking to get a shotgun anytime in the next year or two, I humbly suggest the Saiga. Now for what you are going to put into a Saiga to convert it and get it to run reliably with all types of ammo...I'm going to color outside of the lines a bit and suggest you keep your eyes open for a Benelli M1S90

unusedusername
06-30-2011, 12:15 PM
For bad A**, a saiga-12 is not a bad way to go.

Just be aware though that they are not that awesome until they have had quite some work put into them.

Abra Philippines
06-30-2011, 12:27 PM
I love the FRANCHI SPAS12 and the COBRAY STREETSWEEPER! Those are no longer made or imported. I hear from various sources that they want to stop the importation of the SAIGA 12 shotgun.
You want BAD*$$... Get yourself a SAIGA 12! If your not sold on one, Check out the videos on YouTube. You think they are cool to watch. Wait til you have one in your hands and feel the DIABOLIC RUSH OF ADRENALINE as you UNLEASH! :drool5:

hcbr
06-30-2011, 12:30 PM
GET BOTH! lol :D

JagerTroop
06-30-2011, 12:34 PM
Saiga 12 or KSG?? Lol. No contest. The KSG is just a pump SG with 2 tubes. Seems like a gimmick to me. The only selling point for me is the bullpup design. But that's not enough to outweigh the S12 for Bad*ssedness.

S12 is the way to go. And if Kushnapup ever gets their sh*t together, you can have the best of both.

mif_slim
06-30-2011, 2:49 PM
S12 is for cool factor, KSG would be better for real SHTF for concealability. Just remember during SHTF your not going to wave around how much arsenal you have, low profile is what will work.

MasterYong
06-30-2011, 3:29 PM
Since you have to use a rather cumbersome mag lock on a Saiga 12 I'd say it's pretty useless as an emergency (or as you say SHTF) gun.

The KSG isn't available yet, but is much better suited (assuming it doesn't have major flaws, as 1st gen Kel-Tecs often do) as a defensive shotgun.

If you really want a bad-A HD/SD/SHTF shotgun, but get a Mossy 500 or Rem 870 and trick it out to your heart's content. If you use it much, you'll likely take half the accessories off anyways (or more).

For bad A**, a saiga-12 is not a bad way to go.

Just be aware though that they are not that awesome until they have had quite some work put into them.

Mine functions FLAWLESSLY with every load I've ever put in it with zero work put into it. I put a Poly Choke II on it, but that doesn't affect the cycling of the weapon, just the pattern.

stix213
06-30-2011, 3:58 PM
Saiga 12 may not shoot cheap walmart target loads without some work, or it might run flawless out of the box. I used a drill press to add an extra wide gas port to mine personally, which gets me pretty good reliability with the cheap stuff. Also the 10 round box mags often have reliability problems, as I've bought three different ones between two brands, and still get issues feeding. If you are LEO you can buy and use 20 round drums which would be awesome, and yes you can legally use 20 round drums in a fixed mag auto shotgun and not violate AW laws. Problem for most of us is they didn't make the 20 round drum before 2000.

What works great for me though is using either the 5 round factory mag, or a 10 round drum from pro-mag. Also, I've generally switched to using the higher loaded Remmington ammo marked Nitro that you can get at walmart, but it costs a bit more. This combo for me runs practically 100% and I've been very happy since.

KSG looks awesome though, and I'm considering getting one. As a defensive shotgun the Saiga 12 might be a poor choice due to loading. Box mags can warp shotgun shells if they sit in the mag for a long time, making a oval shaped round not fit into the circle it needs to.... Also when you insert the mag you need to pull back the bolt when the mag is loaded. There is an aftermarket fix for that last one, and I haven't checked if my drum also warps the ammo (maybe I'll load up the drum a few days before I head out next time and see what happens).

monorailboy
06-30-2011, 4:58 PM
Is the KSG legal in California ?

sirgiles
06-30-2011, 6:12 PM
a shtf shotgun? neither. both are unreliable.
:hide:

vintagedude88
06-30-2011, 9:25 PM
I love my Saiga. Its awesome. However, honestly, its been a money pit since I got it.

Dead*Reckoned
06-30-2011, 9:29 PM
Is the KSG legal in California ?

This has been discussed in many threads, general consensus as of now is yes.

Caseless
07-01-2011, 10:07 AM
just want a bad *** SHTF weapon :43:

Neither. KSG is vaporware like mentioned and unproven. Sagia-12 is 100% reliable with 00 buck from the factory, but requires quite some practice to become proficient with it unless you are very familiar with the AK platform already.

Remington 870 or clone is more practical for SHTF.

Rob454
07-01-2011, 4:28 PM
Realistically for me the excitement of my S12 wore out pretty quick. I shoot my Mossberg 500 for the most part. With the prices of Saiga12 these days you can get IMO a way better handling gun for as much or less. Sure it won't look as tactical as a Saiga12 can look. if you do not want to convert your Saiga12 ( if you purchase one) I HIGHLY suggest spending the money and either buying a set of wood Saiga 308 stock and foregrip or making your own. I made a few of my own but i did not like the overall feel so i went with a Saiga 308 wood set. My neighbor was gonna buy it twice and flaked twice. So I ended up keeping it
The ONLY thing that makes the S12 a PITA is the mag lock IMO. If you are talking a SHTF end of the world zombies running wild I doubt there will be anyone to arrest you for removing a maglock.

grommit666
07-01-2011, 4:29 PM
My Saiga 12 is my favorite gun. if you can only have 10 rounds in CA, why shouldn't it be 12 guage? You definitely want to get it converted though. If you don't do it yourself, find a reputable gunsmith to do it for you (about $300 and worth it). Some people (not me) have problems with them, but there's a lot of information and helpful people out there that can fix just about anything. Also a lot of customization options to make it any way you want. The mag release isn't any more or less annoying than any other bullet button. Saiga 12, hands down.

JaMail
07-01-2011, 4:43 PM
ive already put down my deposit on the turners pre sale, so i have one spoken for when they finally get in..

for SHTF, its up to 14 rounds loaded, its small and concealable. these out weigh whatever short comings it has.. its a pump, so it should be reliable, and it seems from reading the ktog boards, they are putting in a lot of work to make it right the first time around (no jinx). so yea, for looking bad ***, get the saiga and hope it works, or for SHTF, get the KSG

pyro3k2
07-01-2011, 10:58 PM
Considering that the KSG might as well be vaporware at the moment, if you are looking to get a shotgun anytime in the next year or two, I humbly suggest the Saiga. Now for what you are going to put into a Saiga to convert it and get it to run reliably with all types of ammo...I'm going to color outside of the lines a bit and suggest you keep your eyes open for a Benelli M1S90

all you would need to do is to get it to shoot all types of ammo is spend around 45 bucks http://www.saiga-12.com/proddetail.asp?prod=Auto-Plug

hawk81
07-02-2011, 10:45 AM
Saiga 12 all the way. Do not listen to anyone who says the saiga won't run, they are full of crap. I put an Md arms v plug and md arms piston in mine, even though it really did not need it. My saiga will feed all shotgun loads, even the winchester value target packs at walmart. It does not ever jam. With 20 round md arms drum magazines and buckshot, this makes this weapon the most feared close quarters battle weapon in the world, period. This is all the info you need to choose the saiga 12.

hawk81
07-02-2011, 10:47 AM
Do you have a saiga 12? You probably do not. So you should keep your comments on how the saiga functions to a minimum.



ive already put down my deposit on the turners pre sale, so i have one spoken for when they finally get in..

for SHTF, its up to 14 rounds loaded, its small and concealable. these out weigh whatever short comings it has.. its a pump, so it should be reliable, and it seems from reading the ktog boards, they are putting in a lot of work to make it right the first time around (no jinx). so yea, for looking bad ***, get the saiga and hope it works, or for SHTF, get the KSG

hawk81
07-02-2011, 10:50 AM
Do you have one? Probably not. Mine runs like a top. It eats everything.


a shtf shotgun? neither. both are unreliable.
:hide:

Tho_Sun
07-02-2011, 11:18 AM
http://i435.photobucket.com/albums/qq79/Germanii/IMG_20110630_153043.jpg


I love my saiga. Perfect balance with the new stock. Trigger is a bit loose though.

Tho_Sun
07-02-2011, 11:25 AM
P.s. it runs everything since i polished the parts. It is also ten times easier to pop in mags since i reprofiled the bolt. Its very simple and isnt that much more difficult than bedding a stock or fitting one. Took about 30 minues by hand with sand paper. Since i bought it, not one jam even with bird shot and double taps. U can get the writeup on polishing n reprofiling from saiga12.net forums. Great gun, only complant is the mag lock...

GW
07-02-2011, 11:55 AM
The only problem I see with the magazine-fed Saiga is that it needs magazines. outside of devastating firepower, the other great benefit of traditional pump and auto shotguns is the ability to top them off constantly. In SHTF situations, I would imagine that magazines can break, get lost or left behind. Will you be able to replace them? Do you want to have the expense of buying lots of magazines as a hedge against their possible future unavailability? These just aren't issues with a traditional shotgun. Therefore I suggest that you stay with a standard loading shotgun for your first. Saigas are major cool looking and from reports they are reliable, some right out of the box. (Sounds like a 1911:D ) But I'll take a bottom feeder any day.
Good luck with whatever you choose to go with!

Caseless
07-02-2011, 2:43 PM
http://i435.photobucket.com/albums/qq79/Germanii/IMG_20110630_153043.jpg


I love my saiga. Perfect balance with the new stock. Trigger is a bit loose though.

Can you post a top view picture. How accessible is the gas plug if I need to switch from slug to birdshot setting in a hurry?

arking
07-02-2011, 2:54 PM
saiga all the way
no contest!!!!

PANTyRAiD
07-02-2011, 4:19 PM
http://i435.photobucket.com/albums/qq79/Germanii/IMG_20110630_153043.jpg


I love my saiga. Perfect balance with the new stock. Trigger is a bit loose though.

What stock is that? Ive never seen that before, and I know its not a kushnapup...Looks nice BTW

sirgiles
07-02-2011, 10:09 PM
Do you have one? Probably not. Mine runs like a top. It eats everything.

your entitled to your own opinion. i have my own experience with a saiga 12 and it has left me dissatisfied. this is a comment page and not a pissing match.

PANTyRAiD
07-02-2011, 10:25 PM
your entitled to your own opinion. i have my own experience with a saiga 12 and it has left me dissatisfied. this is a comment page and not a pissing match.

Until you get your own Saiga, and have problems with it, then I really think your comment has no merit.

Im assuming you tried someone elses saiga out, and it sucked?

Did this person convert it properly? Did they even understand what the problem was and try to remedy it? Or are they just lazy and left it "as is" and called it a POS?

It is a well known fact that ANY saiga 12 WILL be reliable IF you know how to fix them, and IF you have the drive to actually do it.

I have never heard ANYONE say "yea, I did simply every trick in the book, and it still runs like a heap! I polished and profiled the bolt, I put a booster puck, I changed the gas plug, I even made sure my ports were correct size and no luck!"

Sorry, it just aint happening...

Again, just because you "played" with a vodka special at the range one day, doesn't mean they are all like that, and that the particular firearm you tried cant be made to be a workhorse if given to someone with brains and commitment.

IrishPirate
07-02-2011, 10:29 PM
Mossberg 500 for SHTF, reliability, fun, accuracy, price, and any other reason you'd want a shotgun.

KSG vs Saiga might surpass the "which is better, 500 or 870" total thread count soon.

IrishPirate
07-02-2011, 10:35 PM
Until you get your own Saiga, and have problems with it, then I really think your comment has no merit.

Im assuming you tried someone elses saiga out, and it sucked?

Did this person convert it properly? Did they even understand what the problem was and try to remedy it? Or are they just lazy and left it "as is" and called it a POS?

It is a well known fact that ANY saiga 12 WILL be reliable IF you know how to fix them, and IF you have the drive to actually do it.

I have never heard ANYONE say "yea, I did simply every trick in the book, and it still runs like a heap! I polished and profiled the bolt, I put a booster puck, I changed the gas plug, I even made sure my ports were correct size and no luck!"

Sorry, it just aint happening...

Again, just because you "played" with a vodka special at the range one day, doesn't mean they are all like that, and that the particular firearm you tried cant be made to be a workhorse if given to someone with brains and commitment.

no experience with a Saiga, but any gun that needs to be fixed in order to work the way you want it to shouldn't be considered a good gun. Why people settle for home gunsmithing remedies to make their guns work when the factory refuses to address the issue is completely beyond me....you wouldn't order a hamburger then finish cooking it yourself would you? you probably don't distill your bottled water, or resurface the glass on your TV for clarity....why do people settle for sub-par working guns???????

PANTyRAiD
07-02-2011, 11:07 PM
no experience with a Saiga, but any gun that needs to be fixed in order to work the way you want it to shouldn't be considered a good gun. Why people settle for home gunsmithing remedies to make their guns work when the factory refuses to address the issue is completely beyond me....you wouldn't order a hamburger then finish cooking it yourself would you? you probably don't distill your bottled water, or resurface the glass on your TV for clarity....why do people settle for sub-par working guns???????

Since you have no experience with the gun, let me inform you of something...These shotguns are specifically made in Russia for Russian military. Period. The fact that they import them to America is a nice bonus. However, these guns are not meant to be used like grandpas old skeet buster. Infact, they are not meant for birdshot what so ever. They are made for high pressure buckshot and slugs. Russian shotgun ammo is also WAY hotter then American ammo.

They are not meant to cycle wally world bulk at all. The fact that they can be made to run that stuff extremely reliably (without effecting their performance with high pressure rounds) is another added bonus, and a testament to the adaptability of the firearm.

So when you hear johnny-know-nothing or joe-havent-aclue talking about how crappy the gun is; what they are really saying is, "Im upset that this war shotgun wont run the cheapest garbage I can find from walmart, it must be a piece of junk...wwwhhhaaaaa!"

When in reality it CAN be made to run it if you actually know what your doing and get off your butt and do it. And if you think simply changing a gas puck or gas plug is home gunsmithing, then thats pretty sorry if you ask me.

Falconis
07-02-2011, 11:46 PM
heh, always figured it was like the guys who buy cars then spend more money doing whatever it is they want to do to them.

Besides, I've never really known guys to leave mechanical stuff alone ..... EVER.

PANTyRAiD
07-03-2011, 12:09 AM
heh, always figured it was like the guys who buy cars then spend more money doing whatever it is they want to do to them.

Besides, I've never really known guys to leave mechanical stuff alone ..... EVER.

Very good point!

Rob454
07-03-2011, 3:33 PM
Or are they just lazy and left it "as is" and called it a POS?

It is a well known fact that ANY saiga 12 WILL be reliable IF you know how to fix them, and IF you have the drive to actually do it.

.

From a Saiga 12 owner.
To tell you the truth, I was simply just not impressed with mine as far as ergonomics and overall feel. Just feels cheap and slapped together but that's only because it is:D. Yes it malfunctioned once or twice with the low brass but as soon as I put some slug and buck through it it was flawless. i shot 50 rounds out of it and I just flat out did not care for it. long story short I put it in the safe for the one day i may shoot it again and maybe change my mind. After changing to a wooden stock and foregrip the rifle feels a million times better than with the factory plastic stock. I still can't use it for hunting cause the barrel is too short. i don't think its a POS it has its uses and its designed for certain things
I think there are a few people that are disappointed with the S12 after they get it. I know I was. knowing then what I know now I would take a Remington or Benelli semi auto over a Saiga because I think they are better built guns.

BigDogatPlay
07-03-2011, 4:18 PM
KSG being vaporware to this point the point of the thread is largely moot. Saigas can indeed run really well, most (including the couple I've handled) can stand with some break in and (occasionally) some mods to run.

If it really is SHTF, I personally wouldn't choose either... either an 870 or a 500 is GTG for me and I own both.

Caseless
07-03-2011, 4:19 PM
They are not meant to cycle wally world bulk at all. The fact that they can be made to run that stuff extremely reliably (without effecting their performance with high pressure rounds) is another added bonus, and a testament to the adaptability of the firearm.

+1.
Saiga 12 myth-busting class 101:
Gun comes with a high brass setting and a low brass setting--WRONG.

Gun is designed to shoot buckshot and slugs ONLY. High gas setting is intended for a really dirty gun that fails to cycle buckshot/high power loads on setting 1.:)

luckygunner
07-03-2011, 5:37 PM
I got a chance to shoot one of the Kel Tecs at the LuckyGunner blogger shoot. It was quite a bit better than I thought it would be. The only issue we had was that it didn't like the bigger shells but that is a known issue. The KSG should be able to handle 3" shells once it's in production.

I've only shot one unconverted Saiga so my opinion isn't as informed as I would like. Since it'll be awhile given Kel Tec's history, before a KSG is available. I would get the Saiga and by the time you have it converted, magazines, optics, setup the KSG should be available.

__________________
12 ga ammo (http://www.luckygunner.com/shotgun/12-gauge-ammo-shells)

xxINKxx
07-03-2011, 9:58 PM
As most said, if you want a reliable tried and true shotgun stick with a 870 or mossberg 500/590. Both can be purchased cheap at big 5, shoot any type of ammo and feed it reliably right out of the box

50CalAL
07-03-2011, 10:24 PM
I already have a Remy 870 but I love the sheer awesomeness of the Saiga 12 and plan to pick one up soon and have it converted.

I already pre-ordered a KSG for a couple of reasons:



For SHTF, bullpup design: only 26" OAL
No mags, has 2 tubes so you have 7+7+1 (2 3/4 00 buck in one tube and slugs in the other)
Pump, simpler design, no mag lock.


Can't speak on the reliability yet, we'll have to wait and see (I hope it's good)

chaseface
07-04-2011, 6:24 PM
+1.
Saiga 12 myth-busting class 101:
Gun comes with a high brass setting and a low brass setting--WRONG.

Gun is designed to shoot buckshot and slugs ONLY. High gas setting is intended for a really dirty gun that fails to cycle buckshot/high power loads on setting 1.:)

This is absolutely incorrect information. If you buy a Saiga read the manual it will tell you that the #1 setting is for 3" shells and the #2 setting is for 2 3/4" shells

X-NewYawker
07-05-2011, 7:33 AM
Keltec --
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p54/Fasanoland/_MG_1999.jpg
Looks cool in pictures.
A real world Bad *ss SHTF Home defense shotgun includes bullet proof reliability. When the Zombies are coming up the front walk, fumbling with mag locks and plastic fun guns ain't gonna cut it. Look at the federal prison system. The guards there must be prepared for anything. their gun, mostly, the Mossbeg 590 -- with the heat shield and a KNOXX stock it's pretty bad *** looking -- and will cycle ANY ammo since you're the one working the action:
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p54/Fasanoland/Rifles/KNoxxguns.jpg
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p54/Fasanoland/Rifles/Knoxxbuttstock.jpg

Caseless
07-05-2011, 1:13 PM
This is absolutely incorrect information. If you buy a Saiga read the manual it will tell you that the #1 setting is for 3" shells and the #2 setting is for 2 3/4" shells

Just watch the Izhmash factory promotional video on their own product on Youtube. Saiga 12 is not INITIALLY designed for sporting(birdshot) use.

Try this, shoot 300 rounds of birdshot in one shooting session, add a few slugs to the mix. Do this to three different Saiga 12s and tell us none of the guns ever choked on the birdshots. (Using factory guns without aftermarket parts)

BTW, 2 3/4" shells are available in at least 23 different loadings. I use 2 3/4" slugs and buckshot on setting 1. ;)

JaMail
07-05-2011, 2:13 PM
Do you have a saiga 12? You probably do not. So you should keep your comments on how the saiga functions to a minimum.



yes, i DO have one, which makes my comments and opinions much more relevant than yours, considering from your comment you are not even willing to consider the KSG. the OP specifically stated he wanted a SHTF weapon. and in california with a KSG, he can carry more ammo, in a more concealable package than with a S12, and "if" its even halfway reliable as any pump action should be, its more bang for the buck, with more reliability, and a higher ammo load without a bullet button, and no changing the gas port between loads


where as a saiga, he has to bullet button it and has a massive waffle mag hanging below it on a platform that is 40 plus inches long, as opposed to the KSG that is 26 inches long.


so please, let me know when your post has any relevance to the question being asked.

chaseface
07-05-2011, 2:27 PM
Just watch the Izhmash factory promotional video on their own product on Youtube. Saiga 12 is not INITIALLY designed for sporting(birdshot) use.

Try this, shoot 300 rounds of birdshot in one shooting session, add a few slugs to the mix. Do this to three different Saiga 12s and tell us none of the guns ever choked on the birdshots. (Using factory guns without aftermarket parts)

BTW, 2 3/4" shells are available in at least 23 different loadings. I use 2 3/4" slugs and buckshot on setting 1. ;)

I just shot over 300 rounds (mostly federal bulk pack birdshot) through my factory Saiga on Sunday with no problem. Not to mention I can shoot birdshot through mine on setting 1 with no gas port or polish mods. The only polish job I have is from lots of cycling :D However I put it on setting 2 when I can feel it starting to not cycle as well and the shells don't fly as far.

pennys dad
07-14-2011, 4:52 PM
Was talking to WC Turners guys yesterday and I was told that Turners will have 800 Keltecs in Nov and they are all spoken for!

Thefeeder
07-14-2011, 5:17 PM
Birdshot? There are literally 50 different loads of birdshot.

There are 3" mag, 2 3/4" mag....field, target ......2 3/4 Dram...3 drams, 3 3/4 Drams...4 Drams

#8 shot....6....5.....4...BB....T shot.

All of them are birdshot for bird hunting and clays.........

Which will and will not work?

Just asking...cuz I would like to know also.

Will a full house 2 3/4" , 3 3/4 Dram #4 shot run through the Saiga?

What dram are the 00 or slug loaded at? Bird shot of the same dram should run as good.

AragornElessar86
07-14-2011, 5:49 PM
For the guys saying the KSG won't be reliable, what evidence do you have to support that? From my research Kel-Tec seems to put out very good weapons, they just have trouble actually getting them to the market. So aside from its current vaporware status, what's wrong with the gun?

Back on topic, my personal conviction is that a SHTF gun should be manually operated. Thus I have a tricked out 870, a couple good revolvers and some bolt/lever rifles for that purpose. I know I'm old-school but I just don't like trusting to an autoloading platform in a long-term self-reliance scenario. It's one of the reasons I have the KSG on preorder. Other points in its favor are its OAL, the total mag capacity, and the total weight.

That's not to say that I think the Saiga is a bad gun, it's obviously not. I don't like it for personal ergonomic and aesthetic reasons, but that's my issue and not the gun's. I guess it really depends on what SHTF scenario you're preparing for.

vintagedude88
07-14-2011, 6:36 PM
Was talking to WC Turners guys yesterday and I was told that Turners will have 800 Keltecs in Nov and they are all spoken for!

No worries, plenty of FS threads will come from that. By then the Saiga 12 price will drop and many will be dumping their pre-ordered KSGs for Saiga 12s.:D

350oshin
07-14-2011, 7:22 PM
i dont know why everyone is saying s12 isnt reliable, i have one for over 1.5 yrs and my friend even longer and it hasnt jammed more than 2-3 rounds... i have shot over 2k rounds of cheap wallamrt bulk ammo every time i go out! and how can you beat the s12 for tactical... you can shoot 10rds in a heartbeat yet still reload faster than the kel-tec.......every time i go clay shooting everyone wants to try it...( if anyone does give me a pm)


http://i528.photobucket.com/albums/dd326/350oshin/IMG_0139-1.jpg

sorry i just took a quick pic on my phone

350oshin
07-14-2011, 7:22 PM
and yes the wood looks even nicer in person

SuaSponte
07-14-2011, 7:24 PM
for all you people that have no experience with the saiga and talk it down, I will tell you what. I haven't even owned my saiga 12 for a month straight and brand new all stock was reliable with the low brass. If it can feed low brass wall mart crap, it can feed anything. Mine is reliable and doesnt need to be fixed to be reliable. I didn't need to buy a low brass reliability kit, puck or gas reg.

350oshin
07-14-2011, 9:37 PM
i love mine its one of those omg guns when you go to the range everyones eyes are on me...thinking im a idiot on the clay range with a ak-47 until they see me hit them right after another. my buddies mossberg 500 with a long barrel isnt as accurate....

alfred1222
07-14-2011, 9:47 PM
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=450970

just think its bad ***

Target19
07-15-2011, 6:10 AM
Saiga 12 all the way. Do not listen to anyone who says the saiga won't run, they are full of crap. I put an Md arms v plug and md arms piston in mine, even though it really did not need it. My saiga will feed all shotgun loads, even the winchester value target packs at walmart. It does not ever jam. With 20 round md arms drum magazines and buckshot, this makes this weapon the most feared close quarters battle weapon in the world, period. This is all the info you need to choose the saiga 12.

The SAIGA 12 is badass but...the most feared close quarters battle weapon in the world would have to be the AA-12!!!

gotshotgun?
07-15-2011, 4:44 PM
I'm going to color outside of the lines a bit and suggest you keep your eyes open for a Benelli M1S90

This... The gun just works and it's so handy. Just kicks harder than an s12 but c'mon were talking shotguns

ivsamhell
07-15-2011, 5:10 PM
The saiga wouldn't be my first choice, I'd like to check out a ksg. I think my saiga is pretty novelty, the mags are obnoxiously bulky/slow reload. it still doesn't cycle light loads after converting, opening the ports(and clearancing/shaping the gas block just because it was removed), shaping and polishing the hammer and bolt, md gas plug, twister puck......... but it sure looks sweet.

epilepticninja
07-15-2011, 5:12 PM
I read a review today on the KSG. That thing looks sick.

xxINKxx
07-15-2011, 5:39 PM
I don't think the KSG is all that much vaporware as some are saying. There's a ton of videos of people who got there hands on them to test and they run fine. Even that doucher wanna b tactical guy nutnfancy has like 3 or 4 vids of them shooting/testing one. And lots of other reviewers.

Can't wait to see it officially out. The 7+7+1 round capacity is defiantly a turn on

AragornElessar86
07-15-2011, 5:53 PM
Still want to hear from the guys who say the KSG is unreliable. Or should I just assume they're all talk?

Sent from my Xoom using Tapatalk

ivsamhell
07-15-2011, 6:00 PM
Still want to hear from the guys who say the KSG is unreliable. Or should I just assume they're all talk?

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since they aren't in production its a hard argument.

but a recent review of a test model had some issues.

http://www.warriortalk.com/showthread.php?86788-New-Generation-Shotguns/page8

AragornElessar86
07-15-2011, 6:38 PM
Thank you, very interesting. As you say though, it's just a test model, so there's a good chance it'll be improved by the time it hits production.

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skyscraper
07-15-2011, 7:07 PM
Neither. KSG is vaporware like mentioned and unproven. Sagia-12 is 100% reliable with 00 buck from the factory, but requires quite some practice to become proficient with it unless you are very familiar with the AK platform already.

Remington 870 or clone is more practical for SHTF.

Do you own either one of those? Just wondering

TangoCharlie
07-15-2011, 7:22 PM
since they aren't in production its a hard argument.

but a recent review of a test model had some issues.

http://www.warriortalk.com/showthread.php?86788-New-Generation-Shotguns/page8

I think they're in limited production. One was sold on Gunbroker recently and it was not a pre-order...

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=237564016

Excelsior
07-15-2011, 7:25 PM
looking to get a shotgun, I like the look of the KSG but the price of the Saiga is coming back down after the panic buying. Don't want to skeet shoot, just want a bad *** SHTF weapon :43:
If you actually want a weapon that would be great for personal/home defense consider a Remington 870. To modify a famous phrase:

Get yourself a Glock an 870 and lose that nickel plated sissy pistol forget wasting your money on those silly tacticool toys.

Excelsior
07-15-2011, 7:33 PM
If you must have a cartoon gun consider what might possibly become the Saiga-12 killer:
http://www.akdalarms.com/images/mka.jpg
http://www.akdalarms.com/mka.html

xxINKxx
07-15-2011, 7:33 PM
I think they're in limited production. One was sold on Gunbroker recently and it was not a pre-order...

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=237564016

Lol 4k for it? Aren't they gunna be msrp at like 650$ range?

I still vote for an 870 or 590. Probably the 2 most used shotguns in history. Parts are everywhere

Excelsior
07-15-2011, 7:42 PM
Lol 4k for it? Aren't they gunna be msrp at like 650$ range?

I still vote for an 870 or 590. Probably the 2 most used shotguns in history. Parts are everywhere

:iagree:

Excelsior
07-16-2011, 12:31 AM
For the guys saying the KSG won't be reliable, what evidence do you have to support that? From my research Kel-Tec seems to put out very good weapons, they just have trouble actually getting them to the market. So aside from its current vaporware status, what's wrong with the gun?

Back on topic, my personal conviction is that a SHTF gun should be manually operated. Thus I have a tricked out 870, a couple good revolvers and some bolt/lever rifles for that purpose. I know I'm old-school but I just don't like trusting to an autoloading platform in a long-term self-reliance scenario. It's one of the reasons I have the KSG on preorder. Other points in its favor are its OAL, the total mag capacity, and the total weight.

That's not to say that I think the Saiga is a bad gun, it's obviously not. I don't like it for personal ergonomic and aesthetic reasons, but that's my issue and not the gun's. I guess it really depends on what SHTF scenario you're preparing for.

nutnfancy's video of that firearm?

Merc1138
07-16-2011, 1:20 AM
nutnfancy's video of that firearm?

You mean the videos he made where he had the final version of the product? Oh wait, he had a kel-tec rep with him who happened to take a pre-production sample that has since been modified.

AragornElessar86
07-16-2011, 1:26 AM
nutnfancy's video of that firearm?

Ah yes, that ubiquitous source. How about a link?

More to the point, anything anyone's testing right now is just a pre-production prototype. There's no telling what they'll have fixed or improved by the time they hit stores.

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350oshin
07-16-2011, 11:03 AM
if anyone goes to angels crest range today after 4 i will be there if anyone wants to try it out.

petrole
07-16-2011, 11:22 AM
What stock is that? Ive never seen that before, and I know its not a kushnapup...Looks nice BTW

From Center Balance.

veterosa
07-16-2011, 12:11 PM
i dont know why everyone is saying s12 isnt reliable, i have one for over 1.5 yrs and my friend even longer and it hasnt jammed more than 2-3 rounds... i have shot over 2k rounds of cheap wallamrt bulk ammo every time i go out! and how can you beat the s12 for tactical... you can shoot 10rds in a heartbeat yet still reload faster than the kel-tec.......every time i go clay shooting everyone wants to try it...( if anyone does give me a pm)


http://i528.photobucket.com/albums/dd326/350oshin/IMG_0139-1.jpg

sorry i just took a quick pic on my phone

I approve. Here is my S12 I've had for 3 yrs with recent conversion

http://i1137.photobucket.com/albums/n504/veterosa/1310844200.jpg
http://i1137.photobucket.com/albums/n504/veterosa/1310844134.jpg

Excelsior
07-17-2011, 7:16 AM
Keltec --
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p54/Fasanoland/_MG_1999.jpg

One concern I would have is that a bad person(s) might judge that thing to be a airsoft or maybe some sort of Nerf(tm) gun and they might either ignore you or immediately fire on you.

AragornElessar86
07-17-2011, 8:34 AM
One concern I would have is that a bad person(s) might judge that thing to be a airsoft or maybe some sort of Nerf(tm) gun and they might either ignore you or immediately fire on you.

Sucks to be them.

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louderthangod
07-17-2011, 10:01 AM
I've been considering getting a shotgun lately (currently leaning towards a 590a1) as well as having just moved to a new house. The hallway from the bedroom is narrow and has a sharp turn into the kitchen area and it has me concerned the extended length of the shotgun (I'm sure there's a fancy term for the distance the gun sticks out from your body). The KSG seems like it would be good for tight hallways. I'd worry about sticking a giant shotgun barrel out down the hall and having an intruder grab it.

GettoPhilosopher
07-17-2011, 11:06 AM
I've been considering getting a shotgun lately (currently leaning towards a 590a1) as well as having just moved to a new house. The hallway from the bedroom is narrow and has a sharp turn into the kitchen area and it has me concerned the extended length of the shotgun (I'm sure there's a fancy term for the distance the gun sticks out from your body). The KSG seems like it would be good for tight hallways. I'd worry about sticking a giant shotgun barrel out down the hall and having an intruder grab it.

Get what's comfortable for you and what works. If you're going to get a pump, get an 18" barrel and the shortest stock you can comfortably use. If you have to pie a corner, back against the wall, and possibly undersling it just to get around the corner.

That being said, the real answer is "You're not supposed to try and clear your house by yourself, it's suicide". Barricade yourself in the bedroom, yell "I'm armed and have called the police!". (unless you have kids down the hall you have to protect, etc).

jamesob
07-17-2011, 12:14 PM
One concern I would have is that a bad person(s) might judge that thing to be a airsoft or maybe some sort of Nerf(tm) gun and they might either ignore you or immediately fire on you.

when they are dead, then they can decide if it was a nerf or airsoft.

1lostinspace
07-17-2011, 12:17 PM
I would never trust my life to any Keltec Saiga all the way

1lostinspace
07-17-2011, 12:18 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUe4NWiOq5A

ivsamhell
07-17-2011, 1:36 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUe4NWiOq5A

thats no out of the box gun.

AragornElessar86
07-17-2011, 2:56 PM
when they are dead, then they can decide if it was a nerf or airsoft.

THIS

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Excelsior
07-17-2011, 7:25 PM
when they are dead, then they can decide if it was a nerf or airsoft.
Unless they fire first and hit home...

Merc1138
07-17-2011, 7:36 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUe4NWiOq5A

So to show what you think is the superiority of the saiga, you post a link to a video of an aftermarket modified saiga 12, specifically modified for "reliability" according to the guy in the video.

This tells me that a saiga 12 is NOT reliable and apparently requires modifications out of the box just to be able to perform a 20 round mag dump.

Your point is not any different than if someone modified a KSG to be reliable(this is of course assuming it's not reliable out of the box, and no one knows if this is the case yet) and then made a video about it.

Then there's also the 20 round drum mags for the saiga 12 that you can't get here in CA without being a cop, the magazine lock you're stuck with on the saiga 12(and you can't just tie a tool to a lanyard attached to the trigger guard), and the freakishly long 10 round box magazine. I wouldn't trust my life with a saiga 12(or any mag locked gun for that matter) at all in California. Outside of this state saiga 12's are awesome, with the laws in this state hell no.

GettoPhilosopher
07-17-2011, 10:25 PM
So to show what you think is the superiority of the saiga, you post a link to a video of an aftermarket modified saiga 12, specifically modified for "reliability" according to the guy in the video.

This tells me that a saiga 12 is NOT reliable and apparently requires modifications out of the box just to be able to perform a 20 round mag dump.

Your point is not any different than if someone modified a KSG to be reliable(this is of course assuming it's not reliable out of the box, and no one knows if this is the case yet) and then made a video about it.

Then there's also the 20 round drum mags for the saiga 12 that you can't get here in CA without being a cop, the magazine lock you're stuck with on the saiga 12(and you can't just tie a tool to a lanyard attached to the trigger guard), and the freakishly long 10 round box magazine. I wouldn't trust my life with a saiga 12(or any mag locked gun for that matter) at all in California. Outside of this state saiga 12's are awesome, with the laws in this state hell no.

That's a hell of a lot of assumptions based on one posted youtube video.

No modifications (except a normal conversion kit), I was able to dump something like 130 rds of buckshot and slugs in 3 hours just fine. It also fired Federal bulk pack birdshot just fine as well.

Oh, but you saw a youtube video. Nevermind, I stand corrected. :P

The mag doesn't get in the way. You can always get a 10rd drum if you prefer. And honestly, I really doubt I'll be needing more than 10rds of buckshot to stop a burglar...and if I ever did, my wife would be behind me handing me the featureless AR. Do you guys really expect to be clearing your house in the middle of the night in your underwear while also carrying extra mags/shotshells? Do you really expect to be reloading from a sidesaddle in a HD situation? I mean, I'm all for having the best tools you can have, but I don't expect to have my house broken in by the entire cast of West Side Story.

To say you wouldn't trust your life to a reliable semi-auto shotgun with a 10rd capacity for normal applications (i.e. you're not clearing houses in Iraq) seems utterly ridiculous. I'm fine with differing opinions and styles; if you prefer a different system, no problem. But can we move away from this juvenile "anything but my preferred weapon is worthless" talk?

Merc1138
07-17-2011, 10:55 PM
That's a hell of a lot of assumptions based on one posted youtube video.

No modifications (except a normal conversion kit), I was able to dump something like 130 rds of buckshot and slugs in 3 hours just fine. It also fired Federal bulk pack birdshot just fine as well.

Oh, but you saw a youtube video. Nevermind, I stand corrected. :P

The mag doesn't get in the way. You can always get a 10rd drum if you prefer. And honestly, I really doubt I'll be needing more than 10rds of buckshot to stop a burglar...and if I ever did, my wife would be behind me handing me the featureless AR. Do you guys really expect to be clearing your house in the middle of the night in your underwear while also carrying extra mags/shotshells? Do you really expect to be reloading from a sidesaddle in a HD situation? I mean, I'm all for having the best tools you can have, but I don't expect to have my house broken in by the entire cast of West Side Story.

To say you wouldn't trust your life to a reliable semi-auto shotgun with a 10rd capacity for normal applications (i.e. you're not clearing houses in Iraq) seems utterly ridiculous. I'm fine with differing opinions and styles; if you prefer a different system, no problem. But can we move away from this juvenile "anything but my preferred weapon is worthless" talk?

I made no assumptions about tge reliability of the saiga. Try actually reading what has been posted and what I replied to. Someone claimed the saiga was more reliable than the ksg(and no one knows anything about it's reliability yet) and then posted a video about the saiga where the guy shooting it mentioned that it was modified for reliability(which would be pointless if the thing was reliable out of the box).

You seem to be assuming that a jam will never occur. Have fun clearing a jam in a saiga with no BB tool unless you're assuming that you will always remember to grab your BB tool(that can't be attached with a tether to the gun) when you pick it up at 3 in the morning when you hear a noise.

I'm not saying the ksg is awesome since doing so would be silly considering no one has a production version yet, however the fanboy-ism over the saiga with a mag lock in this state is laughable. Equally silly is making a goofy comment about me slamming something that isn't my preferred weapon system is in itself juvenile since I never posted anything about my preferred weapon system other than it would be something without a mag lock. Even stranger is your complaining about my criticism of the saiga 12 even though I indicated that outside of CA's stupid mag lock restriction that the saiga would be great. Typical fanboy response to freak out when something is criticized but not bothering to notice the basis for the criticism.

ivsamhell
07-17-2011, 10:57 PM
That's a hell of a lot of assumptions based on one posted youtube video.

No modifications (except a normal conversion kit), I was able to dump something like 130 rds of buckshot and slugs in 3 hours just fine. It also fired Federal bulk pack birdshot just fine as well.

Oh, but you saw a youtube video. Nevermind, I stand corrected. :P

The mag doesn't get in the way. You can always get a 10rd drum if you prefer. And honestly, I really doubt I'll be needing more than 10rds of buckshot to stop a burglar...and if I ever did, my wife would be behind me handing me the featureless AR. Do you guys really expect to be clearing your house in the middle of the night in your underwear while also carrying extra mags/shotshells? Do you really expect to be reloading from a sidesaddle in a HD situation? I mean, I'm all for having the best tools you can have, but I don't expect to have my house broken in by the entire cast of West Side Story.

To say you wouldn't trust your life to a reliable semi-auto shotgun with a 10rd capacity for normal applications (i.e. you're not clearing houses in Iraq) seems utterly ridiculous. I'm fine with differing opinions and styles; if you prefer a different system, no problem. But can we move away from this juvenile "anything but my preferred weapon is worthless" talk?

this thread wasn't asking about a home defense weapon.

GettoPhilosopher
07-18-2011, 12:07 AM
this thread wasn't asking about a home defense weapon.

Sorry, I stand corrected. "Bad @$$ SHTF weapon". :p

As to the previous poster, I stand by what I said. Saying you'd never bet your life on a S12 is over the top laughable. I have no problem whatsoever with you preferring other platforms (I never said which platform you preferred, merely that it's apparently not a maglocked S12), but you make it sound useless--that is all I object to.

Firearms are tools. There are very different types of tools, with different pros and cons, strengths and weaknesses. I'm no fanboy, I merely feel the Saiga is a viable tool with strengths that balance out its weaknesses. I know plenty of people who prefer a pump, or a handgun, or even a rifle, and that's great. I doubt I'd be able to fumble with loose shells I'm the dark anyways, so I don't mind the maglock and value the pros (semi, handy, pointable, high capacity, personally preferable ergonomics) enough to choose it as one of my primaries. Your choices may be very different than mine. But I'd never call pump/revolver/handgun/EBR/etc users "laughable fanboys" or juvenile, nor would I claim I'd never trust my life to XXX. I'll take anything--even a crappy .22 bolt action--over a rock anyday.

Get what I mean? I'd never buy a revolver, and I personally strongly dislike the cons (ergonomics, low capacity), but I'd rather have a revolver than nothing, and I'd never imply that choosing a revolver is laughable.

(edit: another thing worth mentioning is I was unclear on one point in my first post. I wasn't trying to say you were being juvenile personally, but that the "anything other than XXX is worthless" mantra that seems to creep up on Calguns is juvenile, whether that's "all ARs are worthless", "all maglocked weapons are useless", "anything smaller than 7.62 is worthless", or the "anything less than Noveske/KAC/LWRCI/LMT/whoever is useless" crowds. I'm a fan of moving away from those mindsets period, no matter how minor they may be. My apologies for that unclear comment and the accusation it must have sounded like.)

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Merc1138
07-18-2011, 1:53 AM
I never said a mag locked weapon in general is useless(well, I'll explain why I think they suck in a moment for anything other than sitting at a bench). I was clearly referring to the saiga 12. I'm not sure why you're defending the saiga 12 the way you are, considering that my biggest complaint with the platform is the crappy CA laws surrounding it.

You're correct that it would likely be just as crappy to be fumbling with loose shells in the dark as it would a tool to unlock the mag. However it's going to be a hell of a lot easier to grab shells to fumble around with in the dark, than it is the tool to unlock the magazine since it can't be conveniently tethered to the shotgun.

Whether you want to admit it or not, your defensive attitude about someone's criticism of CA laws and their application to the shotgun is a perfect example of being a fanboy. You didn't bother to notice that my problem with the shotgun was the crappy CA laws, and simply got defensive and replied because someone complained about the saiga 12 while ignoring the very clear point made that the biggest problem is the crappy mag lock. The mag lock which defeats the purpose of having a shotgun with a detachable magazine in the first place, no matter what design is used(ak types like the saiga, AR style models, hell even the AA12). You've also still ignored the realistic issue of clearing a jam that may occur when using a mag locked weapon. It sucks.

Based off of my own personal experience shooting in a timed scenario I eventually wound up ditching my mag locked AR and switched to my .22lr rifle because a simple magazine change in broad daylight with only a moderate amount of stress was a time wasting fumbling mess. No way in hell would I ever grab a mag locked weapon in any situation that I might have some adrenaline flowing(brightly lit or in the dark) and want to fumble with a stupid magazine lock(which pocket is my tool in, did I drop the tool, did I even remember to pick up the tool when I grabbed the gun and magazines since I can't keep it tethered to the gun, am I using the correct end of the tool, etc.). Eventually I figured that if I did have a failure in my AR it would pretty much end up being a club, same with the saiga 12.

I've handled a saiga 12 at a gun shop, the short stock was annoying for me but that's something I can change. The crappy CA law requiring the mag lock I cannot change. If I were outside of CA I'd have one for sure, but with these laws it's crap unless I could at least somehow manage to register one as an AW(not going to happen any time soon).

In my personal order of preference: saiga 12 > pump or semiauto tube fed shotgun > mag-locked saiga 12.

Yes the saiga 12 could be a great tool, outside of California.

Excelsior
07-18-2011, 11:38 AM
That's a hell of a lot of assumptions based on one posted youtube video.

No modifications (except a normal conversion kit), I was able to dump something like 130 rds of buckshot and slugs in 3 hours just fine. It also fired Federal bulk pack birdshot just fine as well.

Oh, but you saw a youtube video. Nevermind, I stand corrected. :P

The mag doesn't get in the way. You can always get a 10rd drum if you prefer. And honestly, I really doubt I'll be needing more than 10rds of buckshot to stop a burglar...and if I ever did, my wife would be behind me handing me the featureless AR. Do you guys really expect to be clearing your house in the middle of the night in your underwear while also carrying extra mags/shotshells? Do you really expect to be reloading from a sidesaddle in a HD situation? I mean, I'm all for having the best tools you can have, but I don't expect to have my house broken in by the entire cast of West Side Story.

To say you wouldn't trust your life to a reliable semi-auto shotgun with a 10rd capacity for normal applications (i.e. you're not clearing houses in Iraq) seems utterly ridiculous. I'm fine with differing opinions and styles; if you prefer a different system, no problem. But can we move away from this juvenile "anything but my preferred weapon is worthless" talk?
Just think of all the effort to sew those long/thin shotgun speed-loader pockets onto jammie pants. Then you couldn't bend your leg all night while sleeping. Guys like me who sleep in boxers would really be in trouble...

Excelsior
07-18-2011, 11:45 AM
I never said a mag locked weapon in general is useless(well, I'll explain why I think they suck in a moment for anything other than sitting at a bench). I was clearly referring to the saiga 12. I'm not sure why you're defending the saiga 12 the way you are, considering that my biggest complaint with the platform is the crappy CA laws surrounding it.

You're correct that it would likely be just as crappy to be fumbling with loose shells in the dark as it would a tool to unlock the mag. However it's going to be a hell of a lot easier to grab shells to fumble around with in the dark, than it is the tool to unlock the magazine since it can't be conveniently tethered to the shotgun.

Whether you want to admit it or not, your defensive attitude about someone's criticism of CA laws and their application to the shotgun is a perfect example of being a fanboy. You didn't bother to notice that my problem with the shotgun was the crappy CA laws, and simply got defensive and replied because someone complained about the saiga 12 while ignoring the very clear point made that the biggest problem is the crappy mag lock. The mag lock which defeats the purpose of having a shotgun with a detachable magazine in the first place, no matter what design is used(ak types like the saiga, AR style models, hell even the AA12). You've also still ignored the realistic issue of clearing a jam that may occur when using a mag locked weapon. It sucks.

Based off of my own personal experience shooting in a timed scenario I eventually wound up ditching my mag locked AR and switched to my .22lr rifle because a simple magazine change in broad daylight with only a moderate amount of stress was a time wasting fumbling mess. No way in hell would I ever grab a mag locked weapon in any situation that I might have some adrenaline flowing(brightly lit or in the dark) and want to fumble with a stupid magazine lock(which pocket is my tool in, did I drop the tool, did I even remember to pick up the tool when I grabbed the gun and magazines since I can't keep it tethered to the gun, am I using the correct end of the tool, etc.). Eventually I figured that if I did have a failure in my AR it would pretty much end up being a club, same with the saiga 12.

I've handled a saiga 12 at a gun shop, the short stock was annoying for me but that's something I can change. The crappy CA law requiring the mag lock I cannot change. If I were outside of CA I'd have one for sure, but with these laws it's crap unless I could at least somehow manage to register one as an AW(not going to happen any time soon).

In my personal order of preference: saiga 12 > pump or semiauto tube fed shotgun > mag-locked saiga 12.

Yes the saiga 12 could be a great tool, outside of California.
A non-crap weapon does not become crap simply with the addition of a BB even in "shtf" situations.

Merc1138
07-18-2011, 12:04 PM
A non-crap weapon does not become crap simply with the addition of a BB even in "shtf" situations.

Uhh, in "SHTF" I probably wouldn't be worried about a BB. However just in general, yes it becomes crap when you need a separate tool that can't be attached to the gun to drop the magazine for something as basic as a magazine change or at worst a jam. I explained pretty clearly why I think it's crap, have you ever used a mag locked gun in any sort of setting where you're timed? Like I said, simply being timed while shooting targets obviously isn't the same as being pumped full of adrenaline from a truly crappy situation, however I can only imagine that the issues with the BB would be magnified.

Yes, in this case when the biggest advantage of the weapon is it's easily changeable magazine, it becomes crap when that magazine is stuck in place with a lock thanks to a stupid law.

I'd never rely on a mag locked pistol, I'd never rely on a mag locked rifle, and I'd never rely on a mag locked shotgun with no real loading port to clear or reload with.

Cali-Shooter
07-18-2011, 12:16 PM
KSG all the way... I'm sick of Saiga's (I have two already).

Besides, I prefer pump vs. semi-auto for shotguns.

tacticalcity
07-18-2011, 12:46 PM
Saiga 12 or KSG?? Lol. No contest. The KSG is just a pump SG with 2 tubes. Seems like a gimmick to me. The only selling point for me is the bullpup design. But that's not enough to outweigh the S12 for Bad*ssedness.

S12 is the way to go. And if Kushnapup ever gets their sh*t together, you can have the best of both.

We like and dislike the KSG for the exact opposite reasons.

Likes...

- I like the reliability of a pump (can be fired in any position because it does not use recoil to load next round).
- I like the dual tubes/hi capacity.
- I like the short overall length.
- I like the long top rail for AR style sights and red dot cowitnessing.

Dislikes...

- I don't like that is is bullpup because it is a slow load and dangerous to have the action under your face if it KABOOMs.
- I don't like that it is made by Kel-Tec, as a brand they have mixed reviews.
- I don't like that it will be a long time before we know if it is any good.
- I don't like that the MSRP is so high, as other more battel proven semi-autos like the Remington 1100 Police can be had for that price.
- I don't like that we have no idea when it will be commercially available.

As for the Saiga, I am not a fan at all. Would rather have a Remington 1100 Police.

Excelsior
07-18-2011, 1:06 PM
Uhh, in "SHTF" I probably wouldn't be worried about a BB. However just in general, yes it becomes crap when you need a separate tool that can't be attached to the gun to drop the magazine for something as basic as a magazine change or at worst a jam. I explained pretty clearly why I think it's crap, have you ever used a mag locked gun in any sort of setting where you're timed? Like I said, simply being timed while shooting targets obviously isn't the same as being pumped full of adrenaline from a truly crappy situation, however I can only imagine that the issues with the BB would be magnified.

Yes, in this case when the biggest advantage of the weapon is it's easily changeable magazine, it becomes crap when that magazine is stuck in place with a lock thanks to a stupid law.

I'd never rely on a mag locked pistol, I'd never rely on a mag locked rifle, and I'd never rely on a mag locked shotgun with no real loading port to clear or reload with.
The offending appendage (crap in itself) does not render the firearm to be crap.

Merc1138
07-18-2011, 1:40 PM
The offending appendage (crap in itself) does not render the firearm to be crap.

In this state it does, if you're taking it out of state and remove the mag lock it's fine.

You guys are so stuck on wanting the saiga 12 to be the best thing since sliced bread, that you're willing to completely ignore the major stipulation we're all stuck with(except for those able to register one as an assault weapon) that completely removes the advantage the design has. If you like the thing just for the sake of it being an AK shotgun, fine. But you can't just ignore the magazine lock problem.

GW
07-19-2011, 9:38 AM
A non-crap weapon does not become crap simply with the addition of a BB even in "shtf" situations.

I disagree. That stupid button severely limits the Saiga. It negates its biggest advantage. It's like having a world class sprinter and then making him carry an anvil after he runs 10 steps. He'll still be able to run, but not very well.
and because of that stupid mod, he just became a crap runner.

In a SHTF that explodes around you suddenly, are you going to have the time to find the tools and swap out that stoopid effing button or are you going to fire you 10/11 shots and then be forced to drop it and pick up something else.
If you have advanced warning of SHTF then sure , get rid of that BB and you have a buzzsaw. But, unless you are willing to take the legal risks of leaving that Saiga/AK/AR/FAL/PTR un-BB'd they are crap systems. Fun to shoot but not SHTF go-to weapon.
Great system(s) are turned to crap because of that BB
Stupid effing law:mad:

50 Freak
07-19-2011, 11:07 AM
I'll stick with my Benelli M3 (pump or semi with just a flick of a switch). Fills both role beautifully and is plenty accurate and don't think I've ever had a jam in the 10 years I've owned it.

Merc1138
07-19-2011, 12:04 PM
I disagree. That stupid button severely limits the Saiga. It negates its biggest advantage. It's like having a world class sprinter and then making him carry an anvil after he runs 10 steps. He'll still be able to run, but not very well.
and because of that stupid mod, he just became a crap runner.

In a SHTF that explodes around you suddenly, are you going to have the time to find the tools and swap out that stoopid effing button or are you going to fire you 10/11 shots and then be forced to drop it and pick up something else.
If you have advanced warning of SHTF then sure , get rid of that BB and you have a buzzsaw. But, unless you are willing to take the legal risks of leaving that Saiga/AK/AR/FAL/PTR un-BB'd they are crap systems. Fun to shoot but not SHTF go-to weapon.
Great system(s) are turned to crap because of that BB
Stupid effing law:mad:

At least with the rifles(AK/AR/FAL/etc.) you can have a featureless configuration.

mif_slim
07-19-2011, 1:06 PM
...I'd never buy a revolver, and I personally strongly dislike the cons (ergonomics, low capacity), but I'd rather have a revolver than nothing, and I'd never imply that choosing a revolver is laughable.


Actually a autoloader has its flaws too. Hand to hand and a autoloader will not be able to fire again if the intruder grabs a hold of the slide (We trained to grab the slide and the first round will fire but itll cause fte rendering it useless until its racked again). But at a distance that is not H2H, autoloader for me too! :D

hcbr
07-19-2011, 2:37 PM
LOL loving this thread KSG vs Saiga 12 haha FLAME SUIT ACTIVATE!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v340/Mower/flame_suit-2.jpg

mif_slim
07-19-2011, 3:21 PM
^ looks like your hands will be caught on fire easily. Lol

SofaGeorge
07-19-2011, 5:05 PM
When someone says "after the panic buying prices are coming down" on the Saiga 12... what are they coming down to? Last one I saw was $1250. At that price I'd rather get an M4 Benelli.

chaseface
07-19-2011, 5:56 PM
When someone says "after the panic buying prices are coming down" on the Saiga 12... what are they coming down to? Last one I saw was $1250. At that price I'd rather get an M4 Benelli.

They were never averaging $1250 for an unconverted Saiga. They are now back down to about $700 for a while they were up around $850. The places that charged any more than that were just a-holes ripping off their customers. A couple years ago they were in the 400ish range but I highly doubt that we will ever see that price again.

GW
07-19-2011, 8:55 PM
OK
That post had edited out the f a g of so***eorge
Anyone else find that funny?

ETA Geez! it did it to me too!:smilielol5:

Excelsior
07-19-2011, 9:17 PM
In this state it does, if you're taking it out of state and remove the mag lock it's fine.

You guys are so stuck on wanting the saiga 12 to be the best thing since sliced bread, that you're willing to completely ignore the major stipulation we're all stuck with(except for those able to register one as an assault weapon) that completely removes the advantage the design has. If you like the thing just for the sake of it being an AK shotgun, fine. But you can't just ignore the magazine lock problem.

Poppycock. So it takes a few microseconds longer to drop a mag with a BB. That's hardly a case of what you suggest.

Excelsior
07-19-2011, 9:19 PM
I disagree. That stupid button severely limits the Saiga. It negates its biggest advantage. It's like having a world class sprinter and then making him carry an anvil after he runs 10 steps. He'll still be able to run, but not very well.
and because of that stupid mod, he just became a crap runner.

In a SHTF that explodes around you suddenly, are you going to have the time to find the tools and swap out that stoopid effing button or are you going to fire you 10/11 shots and then be forced to drop it and pick up something else.
If you have advanced warning of SHTF then sure , get rid of that BB and you have a buzzsaw. But, unless you are willing to take the legal risks of leaving that Saiga/AK/AR/FAL/PTR un-BB'd they are crap systems. Fun to shoot but not SHTF go-to weapon.
Great system(s) are turned to crap because of that BB
Stupid effing law:mad:
Balderdash. Just how many rounds do you need by the way? If one is sharp enough one will find a way to keep a "tool" at the read 24/7 to actuate the BB.

Excelsior
07-19-2011, 9:20 PM
I'll stick with my Benelli M3 (pump or semi with just a flick of a switch). Fills both role beautifully and is plenty accurate and don't think I've ever had a jam in the 10 years I've owned it.
Pump AND semi? Why? :rolleyes:

Excelsior
07-19-2011, 9:22 PM
When someone says "after the panic buying prices are coming down" on the Saiga 12... what are they coming down to? Last one I saw was $1250. At that price I'd rather get an M4 Benelli.

Last one I saw was less than half that yet I would still prefer a Remington 870 for a fraction of the Buninni's price.

Excelsior
07-19-2011, 9:24 PM
They were never averaging $1250 for an unconverted Saiga. They are now back down to about $700 for a while they were up around $850. The places that charged any more than that were just a-holes ripping off their customers. A couple years ago they were in the 400ish range but I highly doubt that we will ever see that price again.

Less than a year ago they were less than $300.00 delivered.

GW
07-19-2011, 10:50 PM
Balderdash. Just how many rounds do you need by the way? If one is sharp enough one will find a way to keep a "tool" at the read 24/7 to actuate the BB.

You know what?
If you are happy with your Saiga then who am I to gainsay it?
Happy shooting and enjoy your gun!:)

chaseface
07-19-2011, 10:59 PM
Less than a year ago they were less than $300.00 delivered.

I don't know what your talking about because less than a year ago they most certainly were NOT $300 shipped. I researched them like crazy last year before I bought one and they were going for around $500. They were $600 at the inflated gun show prices at Cow Palace last year. I joined Saiga12.com June last year and there is NO WAY they were even close to $300 NIB between then and now in California or elsewhere.

Merc1138
07-20-2011, 12:59 AM
Poppycock. So it takes a few microseconds longer to drop a mag with a BB. That's hardly a case of what you suggest.

Try reading the entire post. I want to see you take "microseconds"(do you even know wtf a microsecond is?) to drop a mag with a BB at 3 in the morning when you just woke up after hearing a noise in the dark and left your BB tool on the nightstand because it cannot be tethered to the gun. Even if you did manage to pick the tool up and take it with you, you're still going to be fumbling with it. Like I said, I learned better shooting a timed course on a range in daylight, and in the dark the BB is just asking to be a point of failure for one reason or another. Not every shooting scenario involves sitting at a bench twiddling your thumbs between between ceasefire's every 15 minutes. This is the one time where I'd say you need to actually go do some of that run and gun stuff that nutnfancy does, because you've got no idea what the hell you're talking about. I'm willing to bet money that even after just shooting timed targets for a day you're going to find flaws in whatever system you have, that you would have never noticed standing next to a bench at the range. From the way you're posting, it sounds like you've never done anything away from a bench or clays.

All while being pumped up on adrenaline. Hell no.

Also, you should learn how to multiquote.

$300 delivered for a saiga 12 one year ago? LOL. Well at least I don't have to point out that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, because with a statement like that you've done it for me. $450-$550 was more like it, you must be living in some sort of fantasy world or alternate reality and it makes me wonder if you've ever even picked up a saiga 12(let alone bought one considering all your fanboy nonsense). You might as well be trying to tell me the ps3 retailed at $1500 and the 360 is better because it only cost $100 at launch. Your nonsense makes you sound like a pathological liar arguing over which console is better on a videogame forum.

Like I've already said, I'm not saying the KSG is better since it's not in production and no one knows. Here in CA the big advantage of the saiga is negated by our stupid laws otherwise it would be a great weapon, in another state.

(and wtf is a Buninni?)

PANTyRAiD
07-20-2011, 3:27 AM
Try reading the entire post. I want to see you take "microseconds"(do you even know wtf a microsecond is?) to drop a mag with a BB at 3 in the morning when you just woke up after hearing a noise in the dark and left your BB tool on the nightstand because it cannot be tethered to the gun. Even if you did manage to pick the tool up and take it with you, you're still going to be fumbling with it. Like I said, I learned better shooting a timed course on a range in daylight, and in the dark the BB is just asking to be a point of failure for one reason or another. Not every shooting scenario involves sitting at a bench twiddling your thumbs between between ceasefire's every 15 minutes. This is the one time where I'd say you need to actually go do some of that run and gun stuff that nutnfancy does, because you've got no idea what the hell you're talking about. I'm willing to bet money that even after just shooting timed targets for a day you're going to find flaws in whatever system you have, that you would have never noticed standing next to a bench at the range. From the way you're posting, it sounds like you've never done anything away from a bench or clays.

All while being pumped up on adrenaline. Hell no.

Also, you should learn how to multiquote.

$300 delivered for a saiga 12 one year ago? LOL. Well at least I don't have to point out that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, because with a statement like that you've done it for me. $450-$550 was more like it, you must be living in some sort of fantasy world or alternate reality and it makes me wonder if you've ever even picked up a saiga 12(let alone bought one considering all your fanboy nonsense). You might as well be trying to tell me the ps3 retailed at $1500 and the 360 is better because it only cost $100 at launch. Your nonsense makes you sound like a pathological liar arguing over which console is better on a videogame forum.

Like I've already said, I'm not saying the KSG is better since it's not in production and no one knows. Here in CA the big advantage of the saiga is negated by our stupid laws otherwise it would be a great weapon, in another state.

(and wtf is a Buninni?)

Many people use BB AR15's as a go to home defense weapon. Same deal. Yet you dont hear people screaming about that.

So basically what your saying is a standard tube fed shotgun is better; because in the event that you would have to reload, there would be no BB to fumble with. That is true. But you would still have to pick up and fumble with 5-9 12 gauge shells in the dark; which to me sound like a much bigger mistake waiting to happen. Hmmm lets see...A BB tool and a spare mag, or 9 shells? Ill take the Saiga 12 thank you very much!

This argument is silly in the first place, because how likely would it be your going to have to reload anyway? 99.99 percent of the time, it will take one mag or less to deal with your problem. ESPECIALLY so with a long gun...

GettoPhilosopher
07-20-2011, 8:25 AM
Many people use BB AR15's as a go to home defense weapon. Same deal. Yet you dont hear people screaming about that.

So basically what your saying is a standard tube fed shotgun is better; because in the event that you would have to reload, there would be no BB to fumble with. That is true. But you would still have to pick up and fumble with 5-9 12 gauge shells in the dark; which to me sound like a much bigger mistake waiting to happen. Hmmm lets see...A BB tool and a spare mag, or 9 shells? Ill take the Saiga 12 thank you very much!

This argument is silly in the first place, because how likely would it be your going to have to reload anyway? 99.99 percent of the time, it will take one mag or less to deal with your problem. ESPECIALLY so with a long gun...

Shhh....Merc'll call you a fanboy. ;D

Speaking of kids on video game forums, I haven't heard the word "Fanboy" thrown out so many times in a single thread *SINCE* video game forums. Seriously, can't someone like a platform and personally feel that its CA con (BB) is worth its pros WITHOUT you labeling them a fanboy?

I like ARs too (though I prefer featureless). I dislike AKs generally. Does that make me a fanboy too? I also prefer PC to Mac, and strawberry jam to other flavors.

Really, out of the three points Merc keeps hammering (1: Clearing Jams, 2: can't attach the tool, 3: You're a fanboy and have never done timed shooting), I think 2 is more personal than anything (as in it's a personal dislike of his with BBs. I've got a tool next to the gun, and I've never had problems remembering to grab both, but YMMV), 3 seems to be frustration, and 1 is actually a rather fair point. I don't disagree with you on it at all--it would be a complete ***** to clear a jam at night...but my personal defensive posture (for lack of a better term) makes it less of a concern to me. As I've said before, I'd treat a jam the exact same way I'd treat running out of ammo. Yell "RIFLE!", drop the Saiga, and grab the loaded M16A4 (featureless) and extra mag my Bersa-toting wife would be handing to me.

Or I could just stab the BG in the eye with my muzzle brake! xD In all seriousness though, the only thing I'm a raging fanboy about is women. :cool:




Actually a autoloader has its flaws too. Hand to hand and a autoloader will not be able to fire again if the intruder grabs a hold of the slide (We trained to grab the slide and the first round will fire but itll cause fte rendering it useless until its racked again). But at a distance that is not H2H, autoloader for me too! :D

Actually, that was my whole point. :) Every platform or weapon type (whether as designed, or in a CA-legal configuration) has pros and cons. Personally, I prefer an autoloader over a revolver, but I'd never blast a revolver user for having different preferences than me. Especially since my preference is strongly "Rifle/Shotgun" over any kind of handgun anyways. You've got to look at the pros and cons of the weapon platform and its configuration, weigh them against your needs, your skills, and your weaknesses, and pick what works for you.

Merc1138
07-20-2011, 8:26 AM
Many people use BB AR15's as a go to home defense weapon. Same deal. Yet you dont hear people screaming about that.

So basically what your saying is a standard tube fed shotgun is better; because in the event that you would have to reload, there would be no BB to fumble with. That is true. But you would still have to pick up and fumble with 5-9 12 gauge shells in the dark; which to me sound like a much bigger mistake waiting to happen. Hmmm lets see...A BB tool and a spare mag, or 9 shells? Ill take the Saiga 12 thank you very much!

This argument is silly in the first place, because how likely would it be your going to have to reload anyway? 99.99 percent of the time, it will take one mag or less to deal with your problem. ESPECIALLY so with a long gun...

99.99% of the time? Really? I'd like to see where that came from.

Also for some strange reason people seem to keep missing key points that I'm being very clear about.

1. Have you ever had to shoot in any scenario whatsoever with even the slightest amount of pressure on you? Yes or no?

2. Can you explain how a jam would be cleared without dropping the magazine? Do you understand that running empty is not the only reason to release a magazine?

3. Why can people not get it through their heads when I type "Saiga 12 > tube-fed pump/semiauto > BB'd saiga 12"? Do you understand how to read the symbols > and < ?

Those are the 3 basic points I've repeated a couple of times now that none of you guys who just retort about the saiga 12 being better, have yet to acknowledge. You people just claim it's better because it's better and then start pulling random statistics and pricing that never happened out of thin air.

sfgunowner
07-20-2011, 8:34 AM
I guess it is too late to chime in with some intelligent commentary?

AragornElessar86
07-20-2011, 8:35 AM
I like ARs too (though I prefer featureless). I dislike AKs generally. Does that make me a fanboy too? I also prefer PC to Mac, and strawberry jam to other flavors.
Dang strawberry fanbois. :D

But in all seriousness, I think it really is personal preference. I'd rather be able to load individual shells than have to deal with a bb in a stress situation, but if it works for you then I'll keep my big yap shut.

Sent from my Xoom using Tapatalk

Merc1138
07-20-2011, 8:43 AM
Shhh....Merc'll call you a fanboy. ;D

Speaking of kids on video game forums, I haven't heard the word "Fanboy" thrown out so many times in a single thread *SINCE* video game forums. Seriously, can't someone like a platform and personally feel that its CA con (BB) is worth its pros WITHOUT you labeling them a fanboy?

I like ARs too (though I prefer featureless). I dislike AKs generally. Does that make me a fanboy too? I also prefer PC to Mac, and strawberry jam to other flavors.

Really, out of the three points Merc keeps hammering (1: Clearing Jams, 2: can't attach the tool, 3: You're a fanboy and have never done timed shooting), I think 2 is more personal than anything (as in it's a personal dislike of his with BBs. I've got a tool next to the gun, and I've never had problems remembering to grab both, but YMMV), 3 seems to be frustration, and 1 is actually a rather fair point. I don't disagree with you on it at all--it would be a complete ***** to clear a jam at night...but my personal defensive posture (for lack of a better term) makes it less of a concern to me. As I've said before, I'd treat a jam the exact same way I'd treat running out of ammo. Yell "RIFLE!", drop the Saiga, and grab the loaded M16A4 (featureless) and extra mag my Bersa-toting wife would be handing to me.

Or I could just stab the BG in the eye with my muzzle brake! xD In all seriousness though, the only thing I'm a raging fanboy about is women. :cool:

Why do I keep using the term fanboy? Simple, the arguments constantly brought up(which are really nothing more than a bunch of unbased claims which don't appear to be reality) and refusal to acknowledge that your preference may not be the best especially when the claims are bogus(really, $300 shipped for a saiga 12, 12 months ago? Claiming the saiga 12 is reliable and posting a video of a mag dump when one of the first things said in the video is how the saiga was modified for reliability?) is the exact same nonsense you see on videogame message boards. It's the equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming "LALALALALALALALA" because someone said something you don't like.

Now you are clearly not a fanboy as you've actually attempted to discuss the topic at hand without just making things up on the spot because someone else doesn't like the same thing you do.

I suppose if you've got someone to toss you a rifle, fine I guess. ALthough I gotta ask, why the featureless m16a4? Is that because you simply don't own a BB'd AR, or because of things like clearing it in the event of a malfunction, reloading, etc. being a heck of a lot easier without fumbling with a BB? You being willing to treat a weapon that may have to be used defensively as something disposable isn't necessarily the same position that other people may find themselves in.

Regarding remembering to grab the tool, as you said "YMMV". I could also trust that I'd remember to grab the tool, but personally that's one situation where I'd want my mileage not to vary and have some consistency. I wouldn't want to drop the stupid tool in the dark, forget to pick it up, or stand around fiddling with it. If the tool could be legally tethered to the weapon then my position on that would be quite a bit different.

bombadillo
07-20-2011, 9:03 AM
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/62223

http://militarytimes.com/blogs/gearscout/wp-content/blogs.dir/5/files/beretta-tx4/011810od_BerettaTX42.jpg

I'll Take a Beretta TX-4 before most others for autoloaders. Based on the AL-391 platform which is ridiculously reliable.

tacticalcity
07-20-2011, 9:42 AM
Well, I am not a fan of AKs at all. I've never owned a Saiga, but since the receiver is basically an AK receiver I have to assume that many of the things I didn't like about the AK would still apply.

I've owned 2 AKs, one custom built by a well known AK builder and member here and one from one of the more expensive AK brands. They were decent rifles. But neither was anywhere near as reliable as my ARs. Sounds crazy right? Totally contrary to what you usually read on-line about ARs and AKs. The AKs jammed more often, magazine feeds were difficult and clunky, and working the controls was more difficult as well. The safety functioned fine, but having it scrape the finish off the receiver by design bugged me on principle alone. When I say they jammed more often I mean by comparison they were practically jam-o-matics. All in all I found both my AKs to be a let down. Neither came close to meeting the expectations I had based on the AK myth. I say myth, because that is exactly what it is. It might have had some basis in reality back in the 1960s when the ARs were first being developed, but it no longer holds true.

So given that experience, I have to believe that the AK fanboys who still insist that the AR is a piece of junk the AK ultra-reliable simply have not owned both. Or if they did, they didn't have a lot of experience training with or shooting them both. Because the crap they write about the AK and the AR on-line doesn't even remotely resemble my real life experiences with either. And when you talk to them in detail, they usually have no experience with one or both but are just repeated what they were told by "experts".

These guys call me an AR fanboy all the time. Just like they call me a Glock fanboy. I embrace the term fanboy much like I embrace slang terms about my Italian heritage. Both weapons earned my fanhood by being ultra reliable under some extreme conditions and abuse. I train extremely hard with them, and they have meet or exceeded my expectations. One cannot ask for more than that.

As for the rifle vs. shotgun debate, as to which you should grab first. This is just the same old "which weapon system is best for home defense" debate. Guy's who don't actually train, but just collect, will tell you the shotgun is the best option no matter what. They usually buy into the myth about the shotgun not needing to be aimed and think it puts out a wall of pellets. They have no real concept of how the weapon is actually used, or how difficult the manual of arms really is when it comes to reloads, knowing your patterns and holds, clearing malfunctions, and all the things a professional operator actually knows how to do. They think it is just point and shoot, when in fact it is the least point and shoot weapon system around.

The real answer to "which weapon system is best for home defense" is that you should use the weapon system you have the most proficiency with. If you spend all your time training with your handgun, and your shotgun just collects dust in the closet, then you are much better off sticking with the handgun. That way you will know what you are doing with it and fix any problems that occur. If you are a 20 year veteran of the armed forces and were infantry then you know the AR like the back of your hand. No matter how good you are with a shotgun it will never rival your skills with an AR. So the choice for you should be clear as well. If you are equally skilled with all weapon systems, then you use them in combination. You use your handgun to fight to the long gun that best meets your needs at the moment and from that point on use the handgun as a backup to the long gun. The fastest reload after all, is another gun. In short, go with what you know.

That said, if you want to be a shotgun guy that is great! It is a great weapon if you know how to use it. Get the proper training and master the manual of arms for your particular weapon system. Train with it regularly rather than letting it collect dust. That way if you need to use it to defend yourself or your family, you will actually know how. Master not just your patterns and holds but clearances as well. Be able to everything lighting fast. If you could do it faster or better on another weapon system, you need to train harder before the shotgun is the right weapon for you.

As for which of these two particular shotguns you should get, they are both very fun looking shotguns. The KSG looks like a really promising tool. But it is untested. You don't want to be the very first owner of a new weapon system. Not if it is your primary defensive weapon. You want to be the 1 millionth owner. Let the other guys beta test it for you. Let them fix the bugs before you buy in. I already stated my dislike of AKs, so while it looks fun the Saiga would not be my very first choice in a defensive shotgun.

I personally would stick with the traditional American tactical shotgun. Preferably one with an "improved cylinder" barrel. 870 Police, 1100 Police, 1187 Police usually come with improved cylinder barrels. If you have to go down the imported route then the Benelli M Series are all excellent choices especially if they come with the improved cylinder barrel. Why improved cylinder? It holds your groups further out. No sending pellets to whom it may concern. At least not as often. Once you know what you are doing with a shotgun you will know how critical it is to know your patterns and use your holds to control where ever pellet in your pattern hits. The improved cylinder barrel helps with that. But it is a lot harder to find than the standard cylinder barrel which does not.

2Bear
07-20-2011, 9:55 AM
I think they're in limited production. One was sold on Gunbroker recently and it was not a pre-order...

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=237564016

From the Kel-tec site:
07-11-2011
Hello from Kel-Tec!

We have been receiving an abnormally large number of calls pertaining specifically to seeing the KSG for sale on sites like Gunbroker.com.

The bottom line is this: they are hoaxes. Kel-Tec has not shipped any weapons that are allowed to be sold. Up until this point all weapons shipped are for testing and evaluation purposes only and any testers caught selling a testing weapon will be dealt with on our end.

We have personally investigated all instances of KSGs being sold online and have deemed them all to be untrue. We caution the public to be wary of these sales as they do not have the product to provide to the winner of these auctions.

When the KSG starts shipping to distributors for resale we will make an announcement here on the site to let everyone know.

http://www.keltecweapons.com/news/ksg-update-ii


I guess it is too late to chime in with some intelligent commentary?

Jump in! The water is lovely... :)

AragornElessar86
07-20-2011, 9:59 AM
I love how uppity people get on topics like this. I need more popcorn.

GettoPhilosopher
07-20-2011, 10:26 AM
I love how uppity people get on topics like this. I need more popcorn.

:lurk5: :lurk5: :lurk5: :lurk5: :lurk5:

:beatdeadhorse5:

The real question is....WHICH IS BETTER FOR ZOMBIES?!?!?

Excelsior
07-20-2011, 1:41 PM
I don't know what your talking about because less than a year ago they most certainly were NOT $300 shipped. I researched them like crazy last year before I bought one and they were going for around $500. They were $600 at the inflated gun show prices at Cow Palace last year. I joined Saiga12.com June last year and there is NO WAY they were even close to $300 NIB between then and now in California or elsewhere.
How I wish I would have printed out a pdf file!

LESS than a year ago Saiga-12's were $299.00 DELIVERED. More than one vendor had them for that price on GunBroker and GunsAmerica for that price. The 410 Saiga was $249.00 DELIVERED.

I don't recall if any of the vendors were willing to add a BB so you would have had to have it drop shipped elsewhere for the modification adding another 50 bucks or so.

ivsamhell
07-20-2011, 1:50 PM
How I wish I would have printed out a pdf file!

LESS than a year ago Saiga-12's were $299.00 DELIVERED. More than one vendor had them for that price on GunBroker and GunsAmerica for that price. The 410 Saiga was $249.00 DELIVERED.

I don't recall if any of the vendors were willing to add a BB so you would have had to have it drop shipped elsewhere for the modification adding another 50 bucks or so.

I never saw that I would have stocked up. The lowest I ever saw them was just under 500 and I've had mine (and watched the market) for a few years.

resident-shooter
07-20-2011, 2:07 PM
Pump vs semi auto is what it comes down to. KSG is a fresh design, it might have a flaw or two before its perfected. I personally would still to a rugged Saiga.

2Bear
07-20-2011, 3:04 PM
Re: KSG, is there any prior data on twin-tube-magazine-design feed reliability?

Me likey bullpups; an S-12 puppy is a better comparison to the KSG for me...

FWIW, here's the Center-Balanced site:

http://www.cbrps.com

Wonder if the Kusnapup is as "balanced"?...

vgCwsNVpuNQ

Center balanced gunstock with pistol grip and trigger actuator rod and folding front foregrip.

United States Patent Application 20090211140 Kind Code: A1

ABSTRACT: A center balanced gunstock with pistol grip and trigger actuator rod and folding front foregrip is an after market gunstock suited for use on well designed, mechanically sound, unaltered rifle actions that would benefit from current production of an ergonomically designed alternate rifle stock system.

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2009/0211140.html

GettoPhilosopher
07-20-2011, 10:52 PM
BULL....!!!! saiga 12's were NOT 299.00 shipped less than a year ago, I bought mine 3 years ago from cadiz on a group buy and paid more than $300.

He said Saiga 410s. Weren't they cheaper?

</doesn't know, is just trying to defuse the fight>

Merc1138
07-20-2011, 11:28 PM
He said Saiga 410s. Weren't they cheaper?

</doesn't know, is just trying to defuse the fight>

Actually he specifically said saiga-12's were 299 delivered. The 410's were indeed cheaper.

A saiga 12 delivered for under $300 12 months ago is still a crock though.

pyro3k2
07-21-2011, 10:57 AM
around Nov/Dec time frame just a few short months before the ATF shinanigains S12's were around 550

chaseface
07-21-2011, 4:44 PM
How I wish I would have printed out a pdf file!

LESS than a year ago Saiga-12's were $299.00 DELIVERED. More than one vendor had them for that price on GunBroker and GunsAmerica for that price. The 410 Saiga was $249.00 DELIVERED.

I don't recall if any of the vendors were willing to add a BB so you would have had to have it drop shipped elsewhere for the modification adding another 50 bucks or so.

You are just straight wrong. I really am not going to argue any further since about 5 other people have already responded and told you that you are wrong. I can't tell you what the price of a S410 was since I have never been interested in one. All I can say to make valid anything that you saying is that maybe you saw the price around $300 for an S12 on gunbroker. It may have been the current bid on the S12, but most definitely that was not the closing price, not even on a used one. I look for weeks if not months before I buy anything to get the cheapest price I can, so I can say without a doubt that there were no online retailers or distributors selling last year for $300 or under. Take it as you will. If you disagree then we can agree to disagree.

tonelar
07-22-2011, 12:05 AM
For the record;
Saiga 223 and 762 were $229 and $239 when I first bought mine, but that wasn't just a year ago. As I recall the shotguns were priced like the .308 at about $50-$75 over the standard rifles.

I love the FRANCHI SPAS12 and the COBRAY STREETSWEEPER! Those are no longer made or imported. I hear from various sources that they want to stop the importation of the SAIGA 12 shotgun.
You want BAD*$$... Get yourself a SAIGA 12! If your not sold on one, Check out the videos on YouTube. You think they are cool to watch. Wait til you have one in your hands and feel the DIABOLIC RUSH OF ADRENALINE as you UNLEASH! :drool5:

THis is the kind of FUD that drove the $$$ up on the Saigas. I didn't buy one when they were $399, I'm definitely not buying one for more.

Get a Benelli M1 Super 90. I own plenty of bad@$$ shotguns, and my M3 and M1 are my go to beasts.

Excelsior
07-22-2011, 10:44 PM
BULL....!!!! saiga 12's were NOT 299.00 shipped less than a year ago, I bought mine 3 years ago from cadiz on a group buy and paid more than $300.
Then you and your group overpaid.

Someone on this thread mentions Saiga-12's were once $169.00 -- some years ago.

Excelsior
07-22-2011, 10:50 PM
You are just straight wrong. I really am not going to argue any further since about 5 other people have already responded and told you that you are wrong. I can't tell you what the price of a S410 was since I have never been interested in one. All I can say to make valid anything that you saying is that maybe you saw the price around $300 for an S12 on gunbroker. It may have been the current bid on the S12, but most definitely that was not the closing price, not even on a used one. I look for weeks if not months before I buy anything to get the cheapest price I can, so I can say without a doubt that there were no online retailers or distributors selling last year for $300 or under. Take it as you will. If you disagree then we can agree to disagree.
I could really care less what you believe. You're upset that you overpaid. Get over it already. Hell, even if I would have printed a PDF of the auction you would still be in denial so you wouldn't have to face the fact you overpaid.

Excelsior
07-22-2011, 10:53 PM
I love the FRANCHI SPAS12 and the COBRAY STREETSWEEPER! Those are no longer made or imported. I hear from various sources that they want to stop the importation of the SAIGA 12 shotgun.
You want BAD*$$... Get yourself a SAIGA 12! If your not sold on one, Check out the videos on YouTube. You think they are cool to watch. Wait til you have one in your hands and feel the DIABOLIC RUSH OF ADRENALINE as you UNLEASH! :drool5:
Maybe there actually ARE some people who should be prohibited from owning guns! :rolleyes:

2Bear
07-22-2011, 10:55 PM
I must be in the wrong thread, as it seems this thread is about how much S-12s USED to cost.