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zombiescanlearn
06-29-2011, 6:37 PM
I've been reading about the MP5 and I just can't figure out why it's a favorite gun of special forces, et al.

It fires 9mm rounds right? Wouldn't the same argument against the 9mm apply here?

Help me out, I just don't get it.

cannon
06-29-2011, 6:45 PM
accurate, almost no recoil on full auto and most of all... FUN!!!!

xXRifleManXx
06-29-2011, 6:45 PM
at spec- ops ranges 9mm does just fine IMHO. puts em out real quick and stays on target. really one hell of a little unit,go for a center mass shot and you got three into the sucker before you know it. unless they are doped up on the ol' PCP dont think you have much coming from that hostile

The War Wagon
06-29-2011, 6:45 PM
In the '80's & early '90's, tactical doctrine was, the 9mm was "THE thing." And because NATO had finally adopted the 5.56 as THE rifle round, 9mm was America's concession in the sidearm/subgun category. Surplus goes to the police after 1991, and there you have it.

A terrible shootout here in Pittsburgh two years ago killed 3 city cops. The cops laid over 2k of 9mm into a brick house where the killer was holed up, and they STILL couldn't shoot THROUGH it (the guy surrendered eventually - he just got convicted and the death penalty 2 days ago!). IMMEDIATELY thereafter (within a WEEK), they transitioned to M&P15T's.

It was similar kinds of events all over the country, that got police forces OUT of 9mm and into AR carbines. Pittsburgh just ended up being one of the LAST major metro forces to do so.

xXRifleManXx
06-29-2011, 6:53 PM
[

A terrible shootout here in Pittsburgh two years ago killed 3 city cops. The cops laid over 2k of 9mm into a brick house where the killer was holed up, and they STILL couldn't shoot THROUGH it It was similar kinds of events all over the country, that got police forces OUT of 9mm and into AR carbines. Pittsburgh just ended up being one of the LAST major metro forces to do so.[/QUOTE]



.223 is not going to go through a brick let alone a car door without turning into rice. 9mm and .223/5.56 are made to be shot at people ( sorry but this is not a hunting round) that said .223 good out to 300 yards then it really starts to drop off and 9mm is IMHO ment for ranges far closer then .223

Str8shutr
06-29-2011, 7:02 PM
Despite what we see in film, most military & civilian special ops units do not use the MP5anymore. Most use some varient of an AR or occasionaly something in a 30 cal round.
While the MP5 was big in the 90's, I think the current school of thought is if you are going to transition from your side arm, its best that your NOT transitioning to ANOTHER side arm round. If I am third man on an entry team and the bad guy is firing from behind a fridge, I want someting with more poop behind it than a MP in 9mm. (and I am a bigtime 9mm fan).

Just thinkin out loud

pyro3k2
06-29-2011, 7:07 PM
It's small, it's light, it can shoot the +P+ rounds, and with almost no recoil and a high rate of fire you can put 4-5 rounds center mass before you are off target. Which makes a very effective weapon. I read an article a couple a months ago where it show ballistically that a +P round fired from the longer barrelled version of the MP5 was equal to being shot point blank from a 4inch barrelled hand gun at 50 yards. I can't remember where I read that but I just remember that little piece of info. Personally I would take the FN P90, not because the 5.7x28 is better but because it hold 50 rounds and it just feels better ergonically for my body build.

Capita159
06-29-2011, 7:16 PM
I've been reading about the MP5 and I just can't figure out why it's a favorite gun of special forces, et al.

It fires 9mm rounds right? Wouldn't the same argument against the 9mm apply here?

Help me out, I just don't get it.

It's small and easy to handle. With a silencer, it's really a quiet cat. Yet 9mm in general don't make a lot of noise. Most special force ops engage with their objectives no further than 50 meters, so a high power rifle round is not needed. And a 9mm plus P at close range will send a lot of stopping power.

Maddog5150
06-29-2011, 7:17 PM
In the '80's & early '90's, tactical doctrine was, the 9mm was "THE thing." And because NATO had finally adopted the 5.56 as THE rifle round, 9mm was America's concession in the sidearm/subgun category. Surplus goes to the police after 1991, and there you have it.

A terrible shootout here in Pittsburgh two years ago killed 3 city cops. The cops laid over 2k of 9mm into a brick house where the killer was holed up, and they STILL couldn't shoot THROUGH it (the guy surrendered eventually - he just got convicted and the death penalty 2 days ago!). IMMEDIATELY thereafter (within a WEEK), they transitioned to M&P15T's.

It was similar kinds of events all over the country, that got police forces OUT of 9mm and into AR carbines. Pittsburgh just ended up being one of the LAST major metro forces to do so.


5.56 is not going to win against red brick. Just sayin

brando
06-29-2011, 7:18 PM
A little history for you:

The MP5 was developed at a time when most, if not all, sub-machine guns operated from the open-bolt, much like other machine guns. The advantage of this is it prevents overheating cook-offs, while the downside is it's inherently less accurate. The reason? With an open-bolt full auto weapon, when you depress the trigger, the bolt slams forward, starting the loading/locking/firing cycle.

The MP5 was designed as a closed-bolt sub-gun, like a battle or assault rifle. To aid in accuracy, it used the roller-locking bolt setup similar to the G3 - specifically delaying the unlocking and extraction process until the bullet has left the barrel. That, among other things, made the MP5 much more accurate and controllable than other popular sub-guns at the time (Swedish K, SW76, Mac10, Uzi, etc).

In the 80s the MP5 really caught on with US LEO and Army/Navy SOF. The first time I ever shot one was in an old course at Bragg called SOT (or A-SOT). The NSW guys eventually got their own variation on the MP5 while those of us in the Army primarily used the integral suppressed SD version in limited numbers (just a dozen per SF company).

Everything started to change in the early 90s though. Body armor started to proliferate and door kickers started to find the MP5's 9mm a bit lacking. LEO got a 40SW and 10mm version in the mid-90s, but that never made it into the military in significant numbers. Instead we transitioned to short 5.56mm carbines - initially the CAR-15 and later the new M4 in 1994.

Keep in mind, as much as the MP5 was a real nail gun that you could quickly but a 5-round burst into a target in a small area, we almost exclusively used it in semi-auto. Even up close, it was one at a time, though quickly. Switching to the CAR-15 wasn't that much of a change in this with the exception that we got 5.56mm power in exchange. Also, the MP5 in the early 90s was still difficult to accessorize and modify. Yes, this is before Picatinny rails changed everything, but even then we could do more to modify CAR-15s than MP5. Lastly, my number one gripe with the MP5 was the selector lever. Coming from the M16/CAR-15, it was much more difficult to manipulate quickly (and painlessly over weeks of constant use). I know of at least one unit that had special levers made to facilitate the use of the safety along the same lines as the M16/CAR-15 - but it was always different.

So bottom line - it was the king of the hill for two decades, but as the sub-gun fell out of favor, it too fell out of favor.

i<3HK
06-29-2011, 7:59 PM
It's also REALLY reliable and accurate, it can take 100,000+ rounds through it without cleaning it. My H&K SP89 (Civilian version of the MP5K) ate everything and still performed flawlessly and accurately.

Blownmotor
06-29-2011, 8:04 PM
There is the MP7A1 nowadays.

advocatusdiaboli
06-29-2011, 8:14 PM
[

.223 is not going to go through a brick let alone a car door without turning into rice. 9mm and .223/5.56 are made to be shot at people ( sorry but this is not a hunting round) that said .223 good out to 300 yards then it really starts to drop off and 9mm is IMHO ment for ranges far closer then .223

+1 Firearms are tools people. How many size and type drill bits do you have? Hammers? How about phillips and slot bits? Allen wrenches? Power tools? Sure you say, got to fit the tools for the job. EXACTLY. But somehow when it come to firearms, there is this search and demand for the perfect hammer-screwdriver-drill-saw-sander-crowbar-jackhammer-wreckingball-weldingtorch that will do it all in a nice affordable lightweight package. Give it up already. That's why they make so many different firearms and calibers. Hello!?

Sheesh. And get off my lawn! Whippersnappers.

Omega13device
06-29-2011, 8:18 PM
With the proliferation of SBRs, there's no reason to bring a pistol round to a gunfight when you can bring a rifle round. You give up a little in terms of overall length of the firearm but that's not a big concession given the modularity and flexibility you get with the AR platform.

The one situation where the MP5 still rules is when noise has to be minimized.

phamkl
06-29-2011, 8:39 PM
Who says 5.56 won't go through red brick?

7.62x39 will do better though, and also from an angle.

lprGoEpDXJQ

Rock_Islander
06-29-2011, 9:01 PM
I'll try to keep it short and simple.

One 9mm round placed in the right spot (should) will take a man down easily, that means "high center chest" is where you should insert that bullet.

The MP-5 allows many shots to be placed in the "high center of chest" area with one squeeze of the trigger. It's a dream to shoot rapidly, whether that be full-auto or semi-auto on fast squeeze. So accurate, controllable, it's a 9mm streaming laser beam (or as close to one as you're going to get).

I've shot a full auto MP-5 in Las Vegas and that thing puts those 9mm rounds in one ragged hole at close range. There's nothing more effective than "streaming" bullets into your target right at the center of their chest, and the MP-5 is capable of it.

I personally prefer a .45 caliber pistol, but the MP-5 is a better option when you're talking about shoulder fired weaponry.

elSquid
06-29-2011, 9:15 PM
I've been reading about the MP5 and I just can't figure out why it's a favorite gun of special forces, et al.

It fires 9mm rounds right? Wouldn't the same argument against the 9mm apply here?

Help me out, I just don't get it.

http://www.independent.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00366/pg-22-sas_366374a.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_Embassy_siege#SAS_assault

;)

-- Michael

jcoenenberg
06-29-2011, 9:27 PM
They use different weapons for different scenarios. But for close quarters it's the best weapon no recoil very accurate full auto and easy to maneuver could u ask for more. Perfect for breaching houses airport hangers planes etc

Turbinator
06-29-2011, 9:59 PM
If I am third man on an entry team and the bad guy is firing from behind a fridge, I want someting with more poop behind it than a MP in 9mm. (and I am a bigtime 9mm fan).

Just thinkin out loud

FWIW, I've shot at a fridge before and 9mm rounds pass right through. There's really nothing to stop the rounds - maybe beer bottles, if they're in the fridge, will do that.. but the cheap sheet metal, plastic, and insulation won't stop a 9mm round. This is from personal experience.

Turby

RobGR
06-29-2011, 10:01 PM
The MP5 is iconic, right up there with the MP40 or the Tommy gun, it's appealing for many gun enthusiasts to own one. In fact, I wish I had all three of the previously mention firearms.

Yes, the 9mm is definitely considered ineffective when up against the .40 S&W and the .45 rnds.

shadowofnight
06-29-2011, 11:05 PM
I have shot a suppressed MP5 on numerous occasions, it doesnt move around while firing...high cyclic rate...and I fart louder :D

MrPlink
06-29-2011, 11:06 PM
[QUOTE=Capita159;6683090 With a silencer, it's really a quiet cat. [/QUOTE]

thats an over statement. They are like "movie silencer" quiet.

I love HK stuff in general, just thought Id mention that a good buddy of mine carried a MP5 for a few years as a contractor, and while he had nothing but good things to say about it, he told me today if he was looking for 9mm he would go with the Beretta storm platform

arsilva32
06-29-2011, 11:33 PM
I have shot a suppressed MP5 on numerous occasions, it doesnt move around while firing...high cyclic rate...and I fart louder :D



LOL :rofl2:

brando
06-29-2011, 11:55 PM
An interesting aspect of the MP5SD is that it will shoot supersonic 9mm ammo subsonic. Unlike most suppressors and before the wide availability of subsonic ammo these days, when the SD was developed it used essentially the short 4" MP5K barrel but with 60 holes drilled into it. This allowed gas trapped behind the bullet (remember, it's polygonal rifling) to bleed into the first chamber of the integral suppressor (where the handguard is). This immediately reduced the pressure in the bore and stopped accelerating the bullet. Then the rest of the gass traveled through the baffels of the second chamber and the result was a 9mm traveling at just about 1,000 fps.

That's exactly why the SD was favored among SOTIC guys as a close-in weapon vs a suppressed pistol. The only downside was in sustained fire it got REALLY hot and gas had a habit of shooting into your eyes (I used to wear Gargoyles). That and the fact that you had to send the whole weapon back to HK about once a year for suppressor maintenance.

Secret
06-30-2011, 12:07 AM
not trying to thread jack but Im reallly looking into the coharie MP5 clones, i thinking of purchasing one and send it to turner fab for a conversion :) and ideas on what clones are GTG without conversion?

Omega13device
06-30-2011, 12:19 AM
Yes, the 9mm is definitely considered ineffective when up against the .40 S&W and the .45 rnds.

They're all equally ineffective (or effective, if you prefer). http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887

RobGR
06-30-2011, 9:21 AM
They're all equally ineffective (or effective, if you prefer). http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887

Sure, but really, the .40 S&W and .45 ACP is far more likely to drop a man than 9mm, right?

I was recently reading about the 1986 FBI Miami shootout on wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FBI_Miami_shootout,_1986) and about the development of the 10mm Auto. It's incredible to read how much it took to stop the perps in the incident. They suffered several wounds, including facial hits, but still managed to keep going, at least enough to take down several agents with them. Reading how they obtained their get-away vehicles is also chilling. However, not trying to start an endless argument about which caliber is better or has more stopping power, it's just interesting to note how and why certain calibers were developed.

ElvenSoul
06-30-2011, 9:28 AM
I see Texas Rangers carrying M1A SOCOM's...the fit in the car real nice and shoot through most anything.

RobGR
06-30-2011, 9:29 AM
An interesting aspect of the MP5SD is that it will shoot supersonic 9mm ammo subsonic. Unlike most suppressors and before the wide availability of subsonic ammo these days, when the SD was developed it used essentially the short 4" MP5K barrel but with 60 holes drilled into it. This allowed gas trapped behind the bullet (remember, it's polygonal rifling) to bleed into the first chamber of the integral suppressor (where the handguard is). This immediately reduced the pressure in the bore and stopped accelerating the bullet. Then the rest of the gass traveled through the baffels of the second chamber and the result was a 9mm traveling at just about 1,000 fps.

That's exactly why the SD was favored among SOTIC guys as a close-in weapon vs a suppressed pistol. The only downside was in sustained fire it got REALLY hot and gas had a habit of shooting into your eyes (I used to wear Gargoyles). That and the fact that you had to send the whole weapon back to HK about once a year for suppressor maintenance.

Damn. Any details on what that maintenance encompassed?

Maddog5150
06-30-2011, 9:31 AM
Sure, but really, the .40 S&W and .45 ACP is far more likely to drop a man than 9mm, right?

I was recently reading about the 1986 FBI Miami shootout on wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FBI_Miami_shootout,_1986) and about the development of the 10mm Auto. It's incredible to read how much it took to stop the perps in the incident. They suffered several wounds, including facial hits, but still managed to keep going, at least enough to take down several agents with them. Reading how they obtained their get-away vehicles is also chilling. However, not trying to start an endless argument about which caliber is better or has more stopping power, it's just interesting to note how and why certain calibers were developed.

I dont know but I doubt you or any study set actual human beings out with same muscle density, one one subject with a 9mm, then its clone with a 45 in the same place.
I had a hard copy of this report (that means paper, no linky) where the FBI statistics about effectiveness of duty rounds with duty ammunition. The margin of each rounds were almost nil and thus the reports conclusion that the duty round didnt matter.
We can say if ands or buts about our favorate round but what about that kid who got in a shoot out with the cops, got swiss cheesed by 40cals as he only had one mag and a box of 45. Kept reloading his mag and was shooting cops and eventually went down with an AR and was still fighting till he expired. Only drugs found in his system were trace amounts of weed. If we go by stories where things fail then by that logic the 40 is a flawed sissy round also as I'm sure every single round out there as failed at something some time or another.

AirborneStranger
06-30-2011, 9:43 AM
Did body armor becoming much more prolific have anything to do with the MP5 being replaced with SBR's? It seems like in the 80's the bad guys were never wearing any armor whereas nowadays body armor is standard issue for almost everyone.

Ltfive
06-30-2011, 1:45 PM
It fires 9mm rounds right? Wouldn't the same argument against the 9mm apply here?


I didn't read the whole thread, so this may have been mentioned. But there are 10mm versions of the MP5, I forget the designation. I shot one years ago at a FBI range. Full auto, it was a handfull! But fun!

brando
06-30-2011, 3:33 PM
Did body armor becoming much more prolific have anything to do with the MP5 being replaced with SBR's? It seems like in the 80's the bad guys were never wearing any armor whereas nowadays body armor is standard issue for almost everyone.

That's exactly what I mentioned in my initial post.

Ltfive, yes there was a 10mm version in the early 90s along with the .40SW version, but the 10mm version didn't last. At the time, 10mm was a curiosity but never caught on because it was too high pressure and wore out the weapons prematurely.

tacticalcity
06-30-2011, 3:42 PM
I've been reading about the MP5 and I just can't figure out why it's a favorite gun of special forces, et al.

It fires 9mm rounds right? Wouldn't the same argument against the 9mm apply here?

Help me out, I just don't get it.

Well, that tells you alot about the argument against the 9mm. It is based on a one shot one kill world that doesn't exist. It compares individual wound channels and then leaves it at that. It does not take into account that thanks to the lighter recoil, especially in a platform like a full-auto MP5, the speed at which you can create multiple wound channels. Science tells us the human body does a great job dealing with an individual would channel regardless of whether or not it is 9mm or 45ACP. It is when you create multiple wound channels spread out over a decent area that the body goes into shock and shuts down (that or you penetrate a vital organ like the brain or heart which is not always easy to do).

On a side note, this is why in real life hits spaced two inches apart is better than putting all your rounds in same hole. You are getting great accuracy, but you are actually helping his body resist your efforts. Because it can treat them as if it was the same wound channel when they are that close. When working on trigger control it is great to put those rounds right on top of each other. But when training for real life a good hit is a good hit. Dime size groupings are for precision rifles, not CQB. If your target is too pretty you need to speed things up. You are wasting way too much time on accuracy that actually hurts your cause.

The MP5's light recoil allows you to control muzzel lift better than 40S&W and 45ACP versions (excluding Kriss which supposedly rivals the felt recoil while shooting 45ACP but is not as battle proven). Plus it has a very high rate of fire with a large capacity magazine. So you get a boatload of good hits creating decent size wound paths very quickly. Plus, you can trasition from target to target very quickly for the same reasons.

Add to that a small overall size, a stock that can completely collapse in on itself for concealment, and it becomes an ideal CQB/anti-terrorism weapon.

BitterOldMan
06-30-2011, 4:02 PM
http://www.independent.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00366/pg-22-sas_366374a.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_Embassy_siege#SAS_assault

;)

-- Michael

elSquid knows what he is talking about. The SAS operation at No. 16 Princes Gate will forever be remembered as one of the classic hostage rescues of all time. On April 30, 1980, before many of you were born, the SAS armed with MP5s and Browning HP stormed the Iranian Embassy in London. I remember watching the hostage rescue on television. Keep in mind that this hostage rescue operation successfully occurred after the failed Operation Eagle Claw in Iran by the United States on April 24, 1980. So the HK MP5 was forever remembered as the main firearm of the SAS counter-terrorist unit. You young folks need to read a little history.

Peter W Bush
06-30-2011, 4:03 PM
I shot an MP5K in Vegas. The target was about 10 yards away. Started the 3 round burst at center mass, and the third shots POI was about 3 inches above that. So in a split second, you get 3 shots at center mass and follow up shots are pretty quick to boot. Combine that with a very compact and lightweight weapon, and you have something really cool.

brando
06-30-2011, 4:19 PM
The compactness of the MP5 is another issue that can't be discounted, though this is a common factor in subguns. This is why they were pretty common for TF160 air crews and bike teams up until the mid-90s. The 3-point sling was very handy to strap it to your chest when offroading on motorbikes. Even in Iraq in 2004-2006 they were more handy than M4s when operating in M1114s, GMVs or NTVs (Nissan Patrol & Defender 110s). Best of all, good quality MP5s would turn up in weapons caches from time to time - snag! The only thing is you didn't want to get in any kind of sustained firefight with them. It's very depressing to be surrounded by booming outgoing 5.56mm and 7.62mm when your MP5 sounds like a cap gun in the mix.

Also, look at the new HK 416C - there's a weapon designed for a role that was dominated by the MP5 for many years.

Ryan in SD
06-30-2011, 4:28 PM
Longer the barrel, the better the 9mm gets.

hardluck
06-30-2011, 5:46 PM
I got the fine privilege of handling & shooting the MP5 last year, full auto & 3 rnd burst. It was a Castro Valley's Police Lt service weapon.
Other than the great info on this thread (very good read by the way) it is one freakin blast to shoot. I highly recommend trying it.
As others have said very accurate & low recoil.
I must say it just puts a DAMN BIG smile on your face!

advocatusdiaboli
06-30-2011, 5:55 PM
Yes, the 9mm is definitely considered ineffective when up against the .40 S&W and the .45 rnds.

Sorry but that's total Bravo Sierra and I call it. The calibers and rounds don't battle, the people do. Knowledge, skill, experience, bravery, and planning trump rounds when calibers are that close (i.e. pistol rounds) and 5.56 can hold it's own with 7.56 as our soldiers prove daily in many places around the world. The SEALs that took Bin Laden used 9mm and 5.56. No worries about calibers—it's the operator that counts. Stop obsessing about technology and train. That's your edge to victory. You make the difference not the technology when it's close.

Code7inOaktown
06-30-2011, 6:06 PM
Sure, but really, the .40 S&W and .45 ACP is far more likely to drop a man than 9mm, right?

I was recently reading about the 1986 FBI Miami shootout on wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FBI_Miami_shootout,_1986) and about the development of the 10mm Auto. It's incredible to read how much it took to stop the perps in the incident. They suffered several wounds, including facial hits, but still managed to keep going, at least enough to take down several agents with them. Reading how they obtained their get-away vehicles is also chilling. However, not trying to start an endless argument about which caliber is better or has more stopping power, it's just interesting to note how and why certain calibers were developed.

Seriously?

the Miami Shootout is probably best known for demonstrating that failed tactics, poor planning can all be blamed on one of four calibers used in a shoot out instead of admitting that the whole thing was massive screwup.

It reminds me of something I read in a gun magazine about 9mm. Some state troopers are in a shootout with a guy on drugs. He's soaking up round after round of 9mm as well as 00 buck shotgun. Guy won't drop, finally some trooper runs up and smacks him on the head with a shotgun while the guy is reloading. Of course the verdict is: 9mm ineffective! Umm, the guy takes a few tubes of 00 buck, and somehow the 9mm is the one that failed? Yet the magic 45 cal round would have dropped him if he it missed him?

People have to realize that sometimes they're going to drop and sometimes they're not going to drop and plan for it.

JaeOne3345
06-30-2011, 6:07 PM
The Calguns ballistic experts....

:lurk5:

:hide:

Jonathan Doe
06-30-2011, 6:37 PM
I personally prefer Colt SMG. I used it to go through the FBI SWAT school and I liked it a lot. Trigger was better than MP-5 and overall more commfortable to shoot than MP-5. I also saw a federal agent drop the MP-5 on a rock and dented the receiver. The MP-5 went out of service because the bolt wont work with the dented receiver.

brando
06-30-2011, 6:47 PM
LEO that were issued Colt SMGs were often jealous they didn't get MP5s instead ;)

626Tony
06-30-2011, 7:33 PM
just for the cool factor!

RobGR
07-01-2011, 9:08 AM
Seriously?

the Miami Shootout is probably best known for demonstrating that failed tactics, poor planning can all be blamed on one of four calibers used in a shoot out instead of admitting that the whole thing was massive screwup.

People have to realize that sometimes they're going to drop and sometimes they're not going to drop and plan for it.

Yes, tactical blunder by the FBI, who were staking out an area based on a hunch, but the point was simply the fact that the perps were shot multiple times, upper body and face, but continued fighting. There are countless stories about all sorts of different scenarios, but this one was related to the aftermath and development of the 10mm Auto that became the .40 S&W. This in part could have lead to the possible decline of the 9mm rnd as standard issue, even though it wasn't used in this particular incident. Interesting that the backup vehicles with additional agents did have MP5s that were not used b/c they showed up too late. The end.

It's obvious from the ballistics of the 3 main handgun rounds are similar to a degree and when one compares them to a rifle round, they're definitely underpowered. Some people get killed from one .22 bullet and another will live after being shot 10 times by a .45. Like someone said previously, the 9mm, "it's about velocity" and that is dictated by the length of the brl... like every other round out there. I believe the standard side arm of the military is the Beretta M9 and the last time I was at Iron Sights in O'side, I spoke to some jarheads who were practicing for their annual test. They did not seem happy about fielding a 9mm b/c of it's stopping power, they felt the military was simply trying to save money. Whatever, that was just their perspective.

The ballistics gel tests on page 1 don't lie either, but I find this video somewhat compelling in the argument for something else other than 9mm -
eJhAFSCeDB0

Like I also said before, it's an iconic firearm, I would love to own one.

RobGR
07-01-2011, 9:16 AM
The Calguns ballistic experts....

:lurk5:

:hide:

HA, there are so many posts about the whole 9mm vs .40 vs .45, google search is infinite on the subject, they don't have to chime in at all b/c it's all been said.

It's an iconic firearm that is recognized the world over. We're just kicking dirt around while at work... at least I am... okay, back to work.

zombiescanlearn
07-01-2011, 10:07 AM
Sorry but that's total Bravo Sierra and I call it. The calibers and rounds don't battle, the people do. Knowledge, skill, experience, bravery, and planning trump rounds when calibers are that close (i.e. pistol rounds) and 5.56 can hold it's own with 7.56 as our soldiers prove daily in many places around the world. The SEALs that took Bin Laden used 9mm and 5.56. No worries about calibers—it's the operator that counts. Stop obsessing about technology and train. That's your edge to victory. You make the difference not the technology when it's close.

+1 well said

bernieb90
07-01-2011, 10:19 AM
Longer the barrel, the better the 9mm gets.

Not as much as you think. The MP5 has a ~9" (8.9") barrel, an Beretta 92 has a barrel length of ~5 (4.9"). Most loads will gain ~100fps or so in the MP5 over a pistol this is hardly a massive increase in terminal performance.

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/9mmluger.html

The reasons the MP5 has fallen out of favor with most SWAT, and SOF units in favor of carbines firing true rifle cartridges have already been mentioned.

One thing not mentioned was that 9mm actually has greater potential lethality after penetrating common building materials than light weight high velocity .223/5.56 loads do. This has become important when inserting multiple teams into a single building. .223/5.56 loads can also be selected to limit the dangers of overpenetration in densely occupied areas like airport terminals, and public venues while bonded loads can be carried in the event vehicles need to be engaged.

The game changed for law enforcement significantly after the North Hollywood shootout. LE organizations quickly realized that pistols, and pistol caliber carbines are useless when the subject is wearing body armor. Now every CHP vehicle has a 5.56 carbine, and LAPD has them issued to supervisors.


Here is a graphic representation of the difference between pistols, and rifles.

http://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq319/DocGKR/Handgun_gel_comparison.jpg

http://www.hornadyle.com/assets/uploads/556_NATO_75_BTHP_WC_T2_4website.jpg
5.56 75gr TAP

advocatusdiaboli
07-01-2011, 11:02 AM
The reasons the MP5 has fallen out of favor with most SWAT, and SOF units in favor of carbines firing true rifle cartridges have already been mentioned.


I saw this on a YouTube video somewhere and it is apropos (paraphrasing as I don't remember the exact quote):

Rule #1 on how to win a gun fight: Bring a rifle not a pistol if you have a choice. If you can, bring a buddy with one too.

CHS
07-01-2011, 11:21 AM
It's not an HK thread unless someone drops this:

http://larrycorreia.wordpress.com/2007/10/09/hk-because-you-suck-and-we-hate-you/

You're welcome :)

tacticalcity
07-01-2011, 11:23 AM
LEO that were issued Colt SMGs were often jealous they didn't get MP5s instead ;)

That's one of those MAC vs PC debates that has been ragging forever. Most people I've chatted with preferred the MP5 platform, but a few were diehard SMG guys.

tacticalcity
07-01-2011, 11:31 AM
It's not an HK thread unless someone drops this:

http://larrycorreia.wordpress.com/2007/10/09/hk-because-you-suck-and-we-hate-you/

You're welcome :)

Ah, haters....

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh183/tacticalcity/hatersgonnahate.jpg


There are a few design elements that date back to the CETME that cause issues over time.

Specifically the way it charges into battery.

1. The charging handle makes contact with the cocking tube grinding it to a razor sharp edge over time that will literally slice your hand open while you pull back the charging handle. Deep enough to need stitches...seen it happen.

2. The more you fire it the more you wear down the bolt, as this happens the charging handle becomes stiffer and stiffer. I had a G3 that got so stiff you had to litterally stand on it to get it to charge, yet when you headspaced it with gauges it was within spec. It was technicallly safe to fire, but you had to be Heman to work the charging handle.

3. Fixing the above problems requires a torch and some serious skills. Which for most of us translates to the really old guns becoming nothing more than really cool wall art after a couple decades of use.

That said, when they're new they are beautiful machine.

I want a clone of the MP5K so bad I can taste it...

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh183/tacticalcity/pix247211943.jpg

advocatusdiaboli
07-01-2011, 11:34 AM
That's one of those MAC vs PC debates that has been ragging forever. Most people I've chatted with preferred the MP5 platform, but a few were diehard SMG guys.

And the pistol caliber debates, the 5.56 vs 7.62 debates, the "best SHTF rifle" debates, the O&U versus SxS shotgun debates, The single shot (O&U, SXS) versus pump and semi-auto shotgun debates.

Come to think of it, we carry on as many pointless unsettle-able tech debates are computer nerds. Gun nerds. And proud of it.

advocatusdiaboli
07-01-2011, 11:38 AM
Ah, haters....

Oh admit it. It is funny. Keep a sense of humor. I know I need to try to do that better. :beatdeadhorse5:

chead
07-01-2011, 11:41 AM
The MP5 is a great gun. It's a special-purpose weapon and it's very good at what it does. It's small, accurate, reliable, and as an SMG has a reasonably high ROF. Put those together and you have the perfect PDW. And of course the K models are just cool looking as heck.

CHS
07-01-2011, 11:46 AM
And of course the K models are just cool looking as heck.

Only with the matching briefcase :)

Wherryj
07-01-2011, 11:48 AM
[

A terrible shootout here in Pittsburgh two years ago killed 3 city cops. The cops laid over 2k of 9mm into a brick house where the killer was holed up, and they STILL couldn't shoot THROUGH it It was similar kinds of events all over the country, that got police forces OUT of 9mm and into AR carbines. Pittsburgh just ended up being one of the LAST major metro forces to do so.



.223 is not going to go through a brick let alone a car door without turning into rice. 9mm and .223/5.56 are made to be shot at people ( sorry but this is not a hunting round) that said .223 good out to 300 yards then it really starts to drop off and 9mm is IMHO ment for ranges far closer then .223[/QUOTE]

If shooting through brick walls was the primary concern, why didn't all of the agencies move over to the Bofors recoilless rifle or the RPG?

Even large bore rifles will have trouble penetrating brick.

bernieb90
07-01-2011, 12:01 PM
The MP5 is a great gun. It's a special-purpose weapon and it's very good at what it does. It's small, accurate, reliable, and as an SMG has a reasonably high ROF. Put those together and you have the perfect PDW. And of course the K models are just cool looking as heck.


Again the game has changes, and the PDW concept has evolved. When we look at at what a PDW needs to do on the modern battlefield, or in an urban environment limiting ourselves to pistol calibers is a significant handicap.

KAC now has what it probably the most effective PDW on the market. Firing the 6X35mm cartridge. This provides true body armor (IIIA and below) penetrating ability with good intermediate barrier performance, and terminal performance on soft targets.

http://www.knightarmco.com/images/pdw_last_07.jpg


Of course there is the contraversial P90 (not the PS90) which provides body armor peircing capability, (with LE/Military ammunition) low recoil, and a high rate of fire. Although terminal performance is not very good the system fulfills avery specific requirement for certain agencies like the secret service.

Again I doubt there will be much developement of new 9mm chambered submachinegun, or PDW systems intended for Military or LE use any time in the future. Pistols are pistols, and we use them because they are easy to carry. Adding a few inches to the barrel does not make them rifles.