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View Full Version : Marine Corps to Replace SAW With HK M27


Caseless
06-29-2011, 9:08 AM
Full report here.
http://www.military.com/news/article/corps-to-replace-saw-with-automatic-rifle.html

"They performed really well," Clark said. "They were hitting more targets and expending less ammo than they would have with the SAW."
Gunners shooting the M27 have been getting first-round hits on targets beyond 300 meters much more consistently than they have in the past with the M249, Clark said.

Duh, closed bolt rifle vs. open bolt machine gun.:rolleyes:

But accuracy seems to be the key to the M27's effectiveness, Clark said. The auto rifle is already showing signs that it could to be twice as accurate as the Marine M16A4.

Hmm, I guess the heavier barrel on the M27 will hold accuracy better after 5 continuous mag dumps.

My final observation. The closest civilian version of the HK M27, the HK MR556 (HK 416) doesn't even have a chrome-lined barrel.:confused:

CK_32
06-29-2011, 9:17 AM
Oh great now everyone is going to want one because the "Military uses it". It must be amazing and battle proven lol :rofl2:


And :popcorn: because I see this getting good

Iggy
06-29-2011, 9:23 AM
What?? I thought it was the IAR?

2YzGzeLh3mc

tacticalcity
06-29-2011, 9:24 AM
Once a month you get a "military is replacing this with that thread". Usually never happens. At most a unit here or there adds them in addition to their existing tool box. So my response is...we'll see.

tacticalcity
06-29-2011, 9:24 AM
What?? I thought it was the IAR?


Same thing...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infantry_Automatic_Rifle

tacticalcity
06-29-2011, 9:26 AM
Oh great now everyone is going to want one because the "Military uses it". It must be amazing and battle proven lol :rofl2:


And :popcorn: because I see this getting good

I want it all man. Just build a bedroom into the back of an armory and I'll call it home.

Iggy
06-29-2011, 9:28 AM
Same thing...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infantry_Automatic_Rifle

Just noticed that, but the one in the vid is a LWRC.

Ok, now that makes it interesting. All the fanboys are going to say how HK is better than LWRC.
:rolleyes:

Caseless
06-29-2011, 9:30 AM
What?? I thought it was the IAR?

2YzGzeLh3mc

IAR = M27

Droppin Deuces
06-29-2011, 9:32 AM
Haven't we had threads about this already?

CK_32
06-29-2011, 9:33 AM
What?? I thought it was the IAR?

2YzGzeLh3mc

Hahaha that video has so much FUD in it. Thanks again Mac. You seal sniper secrate service CIA ninja who now does a TV show.... :rolleyes:

Bhobbs
06-29-2011, 9:41 AM
Why do they care if SAW gunners aren't making first shot hits at 300m+? I thought that was the job of a rifleman.

shadowofnight
06-29-2011, 9:49 AM
So basically a heavy barreled M4, with the G36's short stroke piston system....sounds good.

" The M27 is based on the Heckler & Koch HK416, which in turn derives from the M4 carbine and Heckler & Koch G36 "

The G36 is AWESOME , not one hiccup...but it does get really hot to hold during sustained full auto. I thought the clear/smoked magazine was going to start melting :p



http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=104395&d=1309369663


http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=104396&d=1309369673

Montu
06-29-2011, 9:51 AM
doesn't low capacity mag = fail?

sniper4usmc
06-29-2011, 9:55 AM
they need to buy Surefire high cap mag

steelrain82
06-29-2011, 9:57 AM
they said the rifleman carrying it is going to have to carry 22 30rnd mags. that is heavy as hell. they are giving up suppressive power for a more accurate weapon system but the weight trade off if negated by rate of fire and amount of ammo carried. they also dont have spare/interchangeable barrels which should be ok since they should be firing at slower rates. i think it was like 28rnds per minute in temps over 100. i wonder how it does against rpk's and such weapons.

Army
06-29-2011, 9:57 AM
they need to buy Surefire high cap mag
They need to put a heavier barrel on the 249. I've asked for this for 20 years.

CK_32
06-29-2011, 9:59 AM
doesn't low capacity mag = fail?

Why do they care if SAW gunners aren't making first shot hits at 300m+? I thought that was the job of a rifleman.

Win! :D


Well that should show us how smart the gov is... I work for them and know first hand how as* backwards it is but yet seeing all these people say well this gov used it so its battle proven would they give their soldiers crap equipment...


Answer is.. Uhhh yes if a politician gets something out of the deal or saves the US $$ to spend else where they will...

giants_fan24
06-29-2011, 10:02 AM
Man I loved the SAW when I was in. Maybe I can get a surplus one now, lol. Yeah right huh

THT
06-29-2011, 10:04 AM
Rumor has it the IAR doesn't work with the current SF 60 and 100rd mags...

tacticalcity
06-29-2011, 10:05 AM
If articles like this one had any weight at all the M4 would be long gone in favor of about 1000 different rifles. Yet it is still here.

So we'll see if it actually happens, or this is just the same old FUD.

Droppin Deuces
06-29-2011, 10:08 AM
http://militarytimes.com/blogs/battle-rattle/2011/06/27/exclusive-photos-the-m27-infantry-automatic-rifle-in-combat/

NorCalK9.com
06-29-2011, 10:09 AM
I dont care if they switch or not but I really really want a g36 for christmas. HK is in my blood and have never owned one but have shot one. So now you all know what to get me for Christmas.lol

Bhobbs
06-29-2011, 10:53 AM
Seems to me like the military is trying to get back to what the M14 was supposed to do and we all know how well that turned out.

bigbearbear
06-29-2011, 11:04 AM
Hello,

Sometimes I don't understand how the US military works, if they're looking for a LMG that is magazine feed, lightweight and can use M16 magazines, why don't they use the Ultimax 100?

That weapon was designed by an American gun designer for the Singapore military. I've trained with an earlier version of this weapon, it is very light because Singaporeans are far smaller than Americans and this thing has very little recoil. You can fire it like a SMG one-handed if you want, a favorite room clearing technique used by the Singapore Armed Forces; swing the weapon one-handed into the door way and let rip the full auto fire with 100 rounds mag.

See this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMrbaYozP_s


BigBear.

tacticalcity
06-29-2011, 11:10 AM
The behind the back shots in that video are "classic"! The exploding zombie heads was funny as well. Laughed my rear off!

Everything about this guy is WAY over the top. He could be safer, but other than my fearing for his safety I enjoyed his video.

RMrbaYozP_s

jumbopanda
06-29-2011, 12:22 PM
The behind the back shots in that video are "classic"! The exploding zombie heads was funny as well. Laughed my rear off!

Everything about this guy is WAY over the top. He could be safer, but other than my fearing for his safety I enjoyed his video.

RMrbaYozP_s

Does this guy just have some sort of aversion to ear protection, or is he already deaf? :confused:

Spaceghost
06-29-2011, 12:31 PM
I am more concerned about no eye protection. Being deaf is a lot easier than blind...

91 whiskey 209
06-29-2011, 12:41 PM
Are we (californians) allowed to buy one of those? what are they called? iar or hk m27?

MrPlink
06-29-2011, 12:46 PM
will they be using larger mags for the HK?

CK_32
06-29-2011, 12:46 PM
Are we (californians) allowed to buy one of those? what are they called? iar or hk m27?

Look to spend about $7k+ for one... HKs are not cheap

mif_slim
06-29-2011, 12:49 PM
Oh great now everyone is going to want one because the "Military uses it". It must be amazing and battle proven lol :rofl2:


And :popcorn: because I see this getting good

lol, my thought exactly!

buffybuster
06-29-2011, 1:01 PM
Hello,

Sometimes I don't understand how the US military works, if they're looking for a LMG that is magazine feed, lightweight and can use M16 magazines, why don't they use the Ultimax 100?

That weapon was designed by an American gun designer for the Singapore military. I've trained with an earlier version of this weapon, it is very light because Singaporeans are far smaller than Americans and this thing has very little recoil. You can fire it like a SMG one-handed if you want, a favorite room clearing technique used by the Singapore Armed Forces; swing the weapon one-handed into the door way and let rip the full auto fire with 100 rounds mag.

See this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMrbaYozP_s


BigBear.

It was designed my L. James Sullivan. He also did the development work on the M16, Mini14, M77 and a bunch of other stuff.

HKDoc
06-29-2011, 1:33 PM
I still want a hk mr556. Hkparts sells the extended handrail. Probably the closest anyone is going to get to the iar.

HKDoc
06-29-2011, 1:45 PM
I still want a hk mr556. Hkparts sells the extended handrail. Probably the closest anyone is going to get to the iar.

bigbearbear
06-29-2011, 2:21 PM
Hello,
The behind the back shots in that video are "classic"!
RMrbaYozP_s

Yeah, it was pretty funny how he "chopped" up all those water melons, firing over his head and holding the weapon behind his back while blazing away on full auto. I wonder why they never taught me how to do this in the army. :D


BigBear.

Knife Edge
06-29-2011, 2:38 PM
Brilliant. So they inventory the HK, then increase the percentage of machine gunners! Sounds like the Marines have a line on replacing the M16's.

Watch, in a few years it'll be all you'll see.

Untamed1972
06-29-2011, 2:58 PM
Need to get some of those Magpul or Surefire (forget who is makin them) 50rd AR mags to go with that thing to reduce mag changes.

I always thought the advantage of the belt-fed gun was the ability to lay down extended suppressing fire w/o reloading?

But if that IAR is basically just an M4 with better full auto characteristics.....why not just give every guy on the squad one? Then the BGs would be facing and entire opposing force equipped with lite-MGs :eek:

Knife Edge
06-29-2011, 3:40 PM
Need to get some of those Magpul or Surefire (forget who is makin them) 50rd AR mags to go with that thing to reduce mag changes.

I always thought the advantage of the belt-fed gun was the ability to lay down extended suppressing fire w/o reloading?

But if that IAR is basically just an M4 with better full auto characteristics.....why not just give every guy on the squad one? Then the BGs would be facing and entire opposing force equipped with lite-MGs :eek:

I think the intent here is that everyone will eventually get a derivative of one, the USMC does it again.

Caseless
06-29-2011, 4:01 PM
Look to spend about $7k+ for one... HKs are not cheap

Starting bid is $2400-$2500 on gunbroker.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=237674921
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=238615820

Add middleman service to make it CA-legal. Remove pistol grip and flash hider, and fix the stock.

Scott Connors
06-29-2011, 4:19 PM
Hello,

Sometimes I don't understand how the US military works, if they're looking for a LMG that is magazine feed, lightweight and can use M16 magazines, why don't they use the Ultimax 100?

That weapon was designed by an American gun designer for the Singapore military. I've trained with an earlier version of this weapon, it is very light because Singaporeans are far smaller than Americans and this thing has very little recoil. You can fire it like a SMG one-handed if you want, a favorite room clearing technique used by the Singapore Armed Forces; swing the weapon one-handed into the door way and let rip the full auto fire with 100 rounds mag.

See this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMrbaYozP_s


BigBear.

The reason why the Marines wanted to replace the SAW with an Infantry Automatic Rifle is because current doctrine states that the first person in the stack entering a room can not use a weapon firing from the open bolt due to an increased risk of a failure to fire (likewise, initiation of an ambush is now delegated to the weapon with the highest casualty producing potential that does not fire from an open bolt. ) This eliminates the Ultimax from consideration.

The SAW was originally meant to be a light-weight replacement for the M60 in the light machine role, acting as a base of fire for the squad by providing a high volume of accurate fire at close to medium ranges, while also sharing ammunition commonality. Alas, the SAW really requires linked ammo (using magazines hasn't really worked out well). Current tactical problems require a lot of house clearing and CQB, and the SAW gunner can't take his turn as the first in a stack because his weapon stands a higher chance of a misfire than his squad mates.

The IAR is a compromise: there is more of a risk of a cook-off by a chambered round because the barrel (now heavier, and I think with a heat sink) can't be changed in the field, but it can handle multiple mag dumps better than a straight M4A1, even the SOCOM HB variant). The SAWs are supposedly staying in the infantry company as a firepower reverse; we'll have to wait to see how that works out.

I think that the IAR is a viable concept based upon the USMC requirements, although I have doubts that the HK is the best system (are we sure that the HK417 doesn't have a chrome barrel? Who the #*@% approved [I]that?) . The LWRC concept, which employed a firing mechanism similar to the Johnson LMG and the German FG-42 Paratrooper's Rifle and fired semi-automatically from the closed bolt position and then, when Auto is selected would fire the chambered round and then all subsequent rounds from the open bolt position, would have been the way to go, even if no provision was made for a quick-change barrel capability. Best of all possible worlds would have been a SAW that fired the first round from a closed bolt and could reliably use a Stanag magazine.

Note that the Army sees no problem with the current tactical application of the SAW, and thus has not embraced the IAR.

Scott Connors
06-29-2011, 4:24 PM
Full report here.
http://www.military.com/news/article/corps-to-replace-saw-with-automatic-rifle.html



Duh, closed bolt rifle vs. open bolt machine gun.:rolleyes:



Hmm, I guess the heavier barrel on the M27 will hold accuracy better after 5 continuous mag dumps.

My final observation. The closest civilian version of the HK M27, the HK MR556 (HK 416) doesn't even have a chrome-lined barrel.:confused:

I checked out the news story in the link, and my first thought at seeing the photographs was: They're using a Harris bipod?!?!?!? I am not a particular fan of the Grip-Pod, but if there were ever a role for which they would excel this has got to be it. The carbine they show in the photos looks like it's set up for the Designated Marksman role.

steelrain82
06-29-2011, 4:58 PM
The reason why the Marines wanted to replace the SAW with an Infantry Automatic Rifle is because current doctrine states that the first person in the stack entering a room can not use a weapon firing from the open bolt due to an increased risk of a failure to fire (likewise, initiation of an ambush is now delegated to the weapon with the highest casualty producing potential that does not fire from an open bolt. [I learned this myself the hard way, thank God it was in training.]

oooh the beautiful clack of metal on metal and no round being fired. not a great way to start an ambush.

ankyle62
06-29-2011, 7:54 PM
they need to buy Surefire high cap mag

that's what I was thinking, there goes suppressing fire.

smle-man
06-29-2011, 8:13 PM
The Marines are getting too focused on urban combat. They will wish they had a belt fed SAW sometime in the future when their next conflict goes from urban to open area and high volume suppressive fire is required. I've always thought the M249 was the best light auto weapon made. This is another chapter in the struggle in the U.S. military between accuracy and volume of fire. Periodically small arms design tips to one side or the other. As much as I like super accurate small arms, the infantryman needs volume of fire and it is criminal to make the SAW limited on volume of fire. Why is someone reinventing the BAR?

saber
06-29-2011, 10:18 PM
The way things go full circle is that in 10-15 years, they will be asking about replacing this new weapons with something like a SAW or even something else. Nobody is ever fully happy with what they have.

Dhena81
06-30-2011, 2:03 AM
The reason why the Marines wanted to replace the SAW with an Infantry Automatic Rifle is because current doctrine states that the first person in the stack entering a room can not use a weapon firing from the open bolt due to an increased risk of a failure to fire (likewise, initiation of an ambush is now delegated to the weapon with the highest casualty producing potential that does not fire from an open bolt. ) This eliminates the Ultimax from consideration.

The SAW was originally meant to be a light-weight replacement for the M60 in the light machine role, acting as a base of fire for the squad by providing a high volume of accurate fire at close to medium ranges, while also sharing ammunition commonality. Alas, the SAW really requires linked ammo (using magazines hasn't really worked out well). Current tactical problems require a lot of house clearing and CQB, and the SAW gunner can't take his turn as the first in a stack because his weapon stands a higher chance of a misfire than his squad mates.

The IAR is a compromise: there is more of a risk of a cook-off by a chambered round because the barrel (now heavier, and I think with a heat sink) can't be changed in the field, but it can handle multiple mag dumps better than a straight M4A1, even the SOCOM HB variant). The SAWs are supposedly staying in the infantry company as a firepower reverse; we'll have to wait to see how that works out.

I think that the IAR is a viable concept based upon the USMC requirements, although I have doubts that the HK is the best system (are we sure that the HK417 doesn't have a chrome barrel? Who the #*@% approved [I]that?) . The LWRC concept, which employed a firing mechanism similar to the Johnson LMG and the German FG-42 Paratrooper's Rifle and fired semi-automatically from the closed bolt position and then, when Auto is selected would fire the chambered round and then all subsequent rounds from the open bolt position, would have been the way to go, even if no provision was made for a quick-change barrel capability. Best of all possible worlds would have been a SAW that fired the first round from a closed bolt and could reliably use a Stanag magazine.

Note that the Army sees no problem with the current tactical application of the SAW, and thus has not embraced the IAR.

+1 /thread

The reason the HK416/417 doesn't have a CL barrel is because it has a match grade barrel. If any of you boys want a MR556 you better get one soon HK just announced a 400 dollar price hike good luck finding one in the next year under $2800 turners will sell them for around $3250 MSRP + bullet button.

bigbearbear
06-30-2011, 10:40 AM
Hello,

The reason why the Marines wanted to replace the SAW with an Infantry Automatic Rifle is because current doctrine states that the first person in the stack entering a room can not use a weapon firing from the open bolt due to an increased risk of a failure to fire (likewise, initiation of an ambush is now delegated to the weapon with the highest casualty producing potential that does not fire from an open bolt. [I learned this myself the hard way, thank God it was in training.]) This eliminates the Ultimax from consideration.

This is a rather odd development for the US Marines, I guess different military uses different tactics. While the open bolt design MAY have a higher chance of misfire due to dust/foreign particles entering the weapon via the open bolt, using the 30 round mag and with no quick-change barrels means you WILL not be able to lay down a (longer) continuous stream of fire to cover your buddies. God forbid should a squad of marines runs into a bunch of terrorists armed with LMGs and got pinned down....

It may make more sense to swap the non-auto M16/M4 out for these IARs and keep the SAW, or do that plus upgrade the current belt-felt SAW with a high capacity magazine loaded one with compatibility with regular 30 round mags.

But then what do I know? I'm a computer engineer, not a Commando. :D



BigBear.

Scott Connors
06-30-2011, 11:31 AM
Those of you who decry the possible short-sightedness of Uncle Sam's Misguided Children in giving up a LMG capable of sustained fire in favor of BAR Lite may take solace in this: 2/3 of the SAWs being replaced will remain in the company as commander reserve weapons, to be issued as needed. (That's the plan, anyway. One wonders how the ever-present manpower crunch will handle this.)

BTW: does anyone know if IARmen will hold Rifleman or Machine Gunner MOS?

Scott Connors
06-30-2011, 11:37 AM
+1 /thread

The reason the HK416/417 doesn't have a CL barrel is because it has a match grade barrel. If any of you boys want a MR556 you better get one soon HK just announced a 400 dollar price hike good luck finding one in the next year under $2800 turners will sell them for around $3250 MSRP + bullet button.

A match grade barrel on a weapon tasked to provide sustained automatic fire?!?! I've read that a BAR could shoot out its barrel in 300 rounds fired at the cyclic rate. When people say that the IAR will out-BAR the BAR, I don't think that this is what they mean. :mad:

HKDoc
06-30-2011, 1:03 PM
The hk416 does have a chrome lined barrel. The mr556 does not.

I bet the iar barrel is chrome lined.

smle-man
06-30-2011, 6:34 PM
Those of you who decry the possible short-sightedness of Uncle Sam's Misguided Children in giving up a LMG capable of sustained fire in favor of BAR Lite may take solace in this: 2/3 of the SAWs being replaced will remain in the company as commander reserve weapons, to be issued as needed. (That's the plan, anyway. One wonders how the ever-present manpower crunch will handle this.)

BTW: does anyone know if IARmen will hold Rifleman or Machine Gunner MOS?

If I was the company commander I'd say screw the BAR lite and hand out the 249s as long as belted ammo in the convenient 200 box was available for issue and resupply.

UserM4
06-30-2011, 8:21 PM
There was a video of an HK rep doing multiple mag dumps with an HK416. Seemed to be no problemo.

Colt-45
06-30-2011, 8:41 PM
they need to buy Surefire high cap mag

Good luck going prone with the Surefire 100 round mag.

http://mygunculture.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/AR15_Surefire_100_round_magazine-300x214.png

Plisk
06-30-2011, 9:20 PM
The hk416 does have a chrome lined barrel. The mr556 does not.

I bet the iar barrel is chrome lined.

No, not Chrome lined. The LWRC M6A4 (IAR) has a Nicorr'd barrel.

Pryde
06-30-2011, 9:33 PM
Those of you who decry the possible short-sightedness of Uncle Sam's Misguided Children in giving up a LMG capable of sustained fire in favor of BAR Lite may take solace in this: 2/3 of the SAWs being replaced will remain in the company as commander reserve weapons, to be issued as needed. (That's the plan, anyway. One wonders how the ever-present manpower crunch will handle this.)

BTW: does anyone know if IARmen will hold Rifleman or Machine Gunner MOS?

The IAR man will most likely be an 0311 who previously held the saw gunner spot in a marine fireteam. I think this change is for the better. It will make sure that a more experienced marine will take that billet. Anyone who has served knows that the saw is often passed onto an inexperienced junior marine because it is heavy and a pita to carry around. Having the lighter and more efficient iar will help ensure that someone who knows what they are doing is in that spot and hopefully end the "saw hazing" ritual.

DPC
06-30-2011, 10:28 PM
Will they be issued 100 rnd Beta mags?

Plisk
06-30-2011, 10:46 PM
Will they be issued 100 rnd Beta mags?

I hope not. The rare few Beta mag owners actually know how to keep them functioning. Hint: it's dry lube.

steelrain82
07-01-2011, 2:45 PM
The IAR man will most likely be an 0311 who previously held the saw gunner spot in a marine fireteam. I think this change is for the better. It will make sure that a more experienced marine will take that billet. Anyone who has served knows that the saw is often passed onto an inexperienced junior marine because it is heavy and a pita to carry around. Having the lighter and more efficient iar will help ensure that someone who knows what they are doing is in that spot and hopefully end the "saw hazing" ritual.

the rifle weight may be half that of the saw but the guys carrying currently are going to have to carry 22 mags. i think that negates the weight issue so they might still use it to mess with the boots. but in both units i was in they took all of us to the range and made everyone "qual" with it. they told us it was just fam fire but those who did the best ended up humping it. the ammo count goes up by 260 rounds compared to the 400 rounds guys with the saw generally carry.

smle-man
07-01-2011, 4:42 PM
the rifle weight may be half that of the saw but the guys carrying currently are going to have to carry 22 mags. i think that negates the weight issue so they might still use it to mess with the boots. but in both units i was in they took all of us to the range and made everyone "qual" with it. they told us it was just fam fire but those who did the best ended up humping it. the ammo count goes up by 260 rounds compared to the 400 rounds guys with the saw generally carry.

Not only the weight but the noise of all those magazines rattling in the pouches. The Brits tried the same thing with their L86 LSW version of the L85. Guess what? They now use the M249 and the L86 is their designated marksman weapon!

Save me from supposed small arms experts stoked on nostalgia!

pyromensch
07-01-2011, 7:53 PM
when i was in, 78-82, the automatic rifleman had an m16-a1, designated as a full-auto, fire superiority. unfortunately, as demonstrated in vietnam, everyone, (mostly) used full auto, so came the search for a weapon to fill the role, ala, the m269, (actually, a light, light machine gun). used in full auto mode, with the accuracy, of a machine gun, and less of a rifle. the marines, have been at the forefront, of adapting, and or adopting weapons to suit the needs of their mission, and in many cases, other branches have followed suit, to adopt these weapons. give the USMC, some slack, and allow them to work this through, they are no longer under the umbrella, of the US army money, and forced to adopt their weaponry, as in vietnam.

pyromensch
07-01-2011, 8:04 PM
The Marines are getting too focused on urban combat. They will wish they had a belt fed SAW sometime in the future when their next conflict goes from urban to open area and high volume suppressive fire is required. I've always thought the M249 was the best light auto weapon made. This is another chapter in the struggle in the U.S. military between accuracy and volume of fire. Periodically small arms design tips to one side or the other. As much as I like super accurate small arms, the infantryman needs volume of fire and it is criminal to make the SAW limited on volume of fire. Why is someone reinventing the BAR?

well the BAR was a magazine fed weapon, not reinventing, just updating, and in urban, as in open country, accurate, as well as full auto fire is necessary, thus the decision to retain the m249 in a , (i guess), third tier role. they pulled m-14's out, when it was needed to "reach out and touch" someone, when the m16-a2/3 wasn't working. adapt and overcome.

smle-man
07-01-2011, 9:27 PM
well the BAR was a magazine fed weapon, not reinventing, just updating, and in urban, as in open country, accurate, as well as full auto fire is necessary, thus the decision to retain the m249 in a , (i guess), third tier role. they pulled m-14's out, when it was needed to "reach out and touch" someone, when the m16-a2/3 wasn't working. adapt and overcome.

Accuracy is secondary to volume of fire in a weapon with which you expect to dominate an area. You don't get volume of fire from a magazine fed weapon with a fixed barrel and you don't want pinpoint accuracy in a support weapon. You want the rounds to disperse to command a large area at longer ranges. If the Marine weapon is a designated marksman weapon then hooah but that isn't the way I'm reading it. I did a successful thesis for the Ordnance Corps advance course of volume of fire vs. accurate aimed fire in company level engagements. Sorry but historic records showed that volume of fire carried the day from the civil war to Vietnam (I attended in 1981).

pistolero805
07-02-2011, 7:44 AM
Pm me if you're interested in a HK MR556. I know of a local VC store that has a couple of them.

Drivedabizness
07-02-2011, 7:54 AM
That would run counter to Marine Corps doctrine established over the last 100 years. It's a philosophical split with Army doctrine. The Corps uses the average # of 200 rounds per (I don't recall if its KIA or casualty inflicted) by the Army in Viet Nam as the reason they emphasize aimed fire and a goal of 1 shot one kill.

If the operators on the ground like it over the SAW, I'm all for going with their wishes.

Scott Connors
07-02-2011, 11:54 AM
when i was in, 78-82, the automatic rifleman had an m16-a1, designated as a full-auto, fire superiority. unfortunately, as demonstrated in vietnam, everyone, (mostly) used full auto, so came the search for a weapon to fill the role, ala, the m269, (actually, a light, light machine gun). used in full auto mode, with the accuracy, of a machine gun, and less of a rifle. the marines, have been at the forefront, of adapting, and or adopting weapons to suit the needs of their mission, and in many cases, other branches have followed suit, to adopt these weapons. give the USMC, some slack, and allow them to work this through, they are no longer under the umbrella, of the US army money, and forced to adopt their weaponry, as in vietnam.

I went through Basic in 1980 and remember "familiarizing" in the AR role by firing a M16A1 on that funky clip-on bipod that the Army issued. Even then I knew that the Good Idea Fairy had visited somebody high in the CoC.... :(

Group B
07-02-2011, 2:32 PM
I've not served in any branch of the Military, and from what little I've read the Pentagon brass seek to mould the Marines [back] into a fast-reacting amphibious expeditionary force, in preparation for the challenges that lie ahead for us in the Pacific against the forces of the Peoples' Republic of China. I'm not sure where replacement of some SAWs with the M27 IAR fits into this strategic framework.

If I had to guess I'd say that the Marine brass figures that their fire teams will be able to move so much more quickly in engagements, that they will no longer require the use of their beltfed SAW in laying down suppressive fire.

I for one am not convinced, and would propose the following instead:

It seems logical to me for the Marines replace all the the M16A4s with the M27 (with a wide range of barrel lengths, from 10" - 20") and replace the SAW with either:


The Stoner LMG
The LSAT LMG
A further lightened version of the Mark 48 mod 0

patriot_man
07-02-2011, 8:55 PM
This was just a ploy to get a new rifle without the politics of running a full competition...


Rumor has it the IAR doesn't work with the current SF 60 and 100rd mags...

It's been confirmed that none of the Surefire Magazines will not work with the IAR or HK416 due to the magwell design.