PDA

View Full Version : Building a Shotgun?


redrex
06-27-2011, 1:19 PM
Ok, so this is admittedly off the wall but... Building your own AR is huge craze and HD Shotguns are selling like crazy... So...

Why not a build your own shotgun?

Heck isn't the receiver on the Moss 500 aluminum? Do you know how easy it is to cast in that?

aippi
06-27-2011, 1:28 PM
Are you are talking about building a receiver? Do you have the license for that. It takes a Manufacturers license. I think that is about 2K alone. I ask this because you mentioned casting a receiver. That would be a lot of jail time at club fed without that license.

People do not cast thier own AR lowers, they buy them. It is rediculose to by a new receiver to build a shotgun as they are expensive. You would have to for an AOW but not anything else. For example. A new stripped Express, Police or Wingmaster receiver from Remington is $247 plus shipping and if you are not an ffl then you have a transfer fee. You can buy an entire Express shotgun for $300. By the time you bought new parts to build an 870 you would be $500 into a $300 weapon.

So you now know why it is not done.

chaseface
06-27-2011, 1:38 PM
Are you are talking about building a receiver? Do you have the license for that. It takes a Manufacturers license. I think that is about 2K alone. I ask this because you mentioned casting a receiver. That would be a lot of jail time at club fed without that license.

People do not cast thier own AR lowers, they buy them. It is rediculose to by a new receiver to build a shotgun as they are expensive. You would have to for an AOW but not anything else. For example. A new stripped Express, Police or Wingmaster receiver from Remington is $247 plus shipping and if you are not an ffl then you have a transfer fee. You can buy an entire Express shotgun for $300. By the time you bought new parts to build an 870 you would be $500 into a $300 weapon.

So you now know why it is not done.

How about the people that buy 80% AR lowers and finish them off themselves?

meaty-btz
06-27-2011, 1:40 PM
Are you are talking about building a receiver? Do you have the license for that. It takes a Manufacturers license. I think that is about 2K alone. I ask this because you mentioned casting a receiver. That would be a lot of jail time at club fed without that license.

People do not cast thier own AR lowers, they buy them. It is rediculose to by a new receiver to build a shotgun as they are expensive. You would have to for an AOW but not anything else. For example. A new stripped Express, Police or Wingmaster receiver from Remington is $247 plus shipping and if you are not an ffl then you have a transfer fee. You can buy an entire Express shotgun for $300. By the time you bought new parts to build an 870 you would be $500 into a $300 weapon.

So you now know why it is not done.
You can legally manufacture a firearm for personal use as long as it does not cross into any of the "restricted" forms during the process. People buy 80% lowers all the time and machine them for themselves. You can also machine your own from scratch all the way through. No serial, no registration. For those of the F-the-man, its kinda fun. AK's are built from pre-cut "flats". The person making the flat into a receiver is manufacturing the receiver. This goes for rifles, pistols, and shotguns alike.

redrex
06-27-2011, 1:53 PM
So why aren't we rolling our own then?

What would be the legality of someone coming to your place and using your tools to cast their own receiver?

FatalKitty
06-27-2011, 2:09 PM
Are you are talking about building a receiver? Do you have the license for that. It takes a Manufacturers license. I think that is about 2K alone. I ask this because you mentioned casting a receiver. That would be a lot of jail time at club fed without that license.

People do not cast thier own AR lowers, they buy them. It is rediculose to by a new receiver to build a shotgun as they are expensive. You would have to for an AOW but not anything else. For example. A new stripped Express, Police or Wingmaster receiver from Remington is $247 plus shipping and if you are not an ffl then you have a transfer fee. You can buy an entire Express shotgun for $300. By the time you bought new parts to build an 870 you would be $500 into a $300 weapon.

So you now know why it is not done.



APPI you are usually right on, but not on this.

you need a manufacturers license to manufacture firearms for sale.
you don't need one to make them for your own personal use.
people DO make their own AR lowers. I have 3
check out http://www.tacticalmachining.com/store/display-products.php?cid=38
this is where I got my lower blanks to build upon
in fact people do this with pistol frames as well.


the main difference between doing this with an AR and with a shotgun.. is that the shotgun receiver is NOT that complicated and will probably cost more to make than buying a whole new shotgun.

Montu
06-27-2011, 2:37 PM
^
interesting info there...so if you make your own lower..and end up using it in say a home defense situation are there any consequences?

aippi
06-27-2011, 2:44 PM
Since you guys know these laws can you give us the codes and where we can find them?

Justintoxicated
06-27-2011, 3:44 PM
Since you guys know these laws can you give us the codes and where we can find them?

Might be wrong but I thought they old made codes against things that you can not do.

Dirtbiker
06-27-2011, 3:53 PM
You can buy a stripped receiver and roll you own but it would cost way more than just buying one.

I'm sure JD could sell you a stripped 870 receiver.

aippi
06-27-2011, 4:04 PM
Code, Law, rule what ever it is from the BATF that says you can do this. Just stating it on the internet is not proof. I am sure there are grey areas as with all things but WHERE DOES THE BATF SAY YOU CAN DO THIS? Could be for personal use and then you can and you file a serial number with BATF, don't know but guys are saying they do know and I would like to read it from BATF. I am a dealer and have the books but it is impossible to read for more then five minutes without falling alseep or going blind. Can't find this subject.

elSquid
06-27-2011, 4:54 PM
Code, Law, rule what ever it is from the BATF that says you can do this. Just stating it on the internet is not proof. I am sure there are grey areas as with all things but WHERE DOES THE BATF SAY YOU CAN DO THIS? Could be for personal use and then you can and you file a serial number with BATF, don't know but guys are saying they do know and I would like to read it from BATF. I am a dealer and have to the book but it is impossible to read for more then five minutes without falling alseep or going blind. Can't find this subject.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/firearms-technology.html#commercial-parts-assembly

Q: Is it legal to assemble a firearm from commercially available parts kits that can be purchased via internet or shotgun news?

For your information, per provisions of the Gun Control Act (GCA) of 1968, 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44, an unlicensed individual may make a “firearm” as defined in the GCA for his own personal use, but not for sale or distribution.

The gunsmithing forum of calguns has a bunch of folks who do this regularly...

-- Michael

aippi
06-27-2011, 5:12 PM
Thanks for the Chapter and code. This is part of an FAQ but references back to US Codes, I will read the entire US code and not base anything from an FAQ that does not go into detail. This is simply because these laws are not general and to take them generally is trouble

I e-mailed the question to an attorney who specializes in Firearms Law and I do business with. Here is his response.

Under the GCA, licensed manufacturers must serialize firearms.

Licensed importers and licensed manufacturers shall identify, by means of a serial number engraved or cast on the receiver or frame of the weapon, in such manner as the Attorney General shall by regulations prescribe, each firearm imported or manufactured by such importer or manufacturer. 18 U.S.C. § 923(i).

OK. So what's a manufacturer?

The term "manufacturer" means any person engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms or ammunition for purposes of sale or distribution; and the term "licensed manufacturer" means any such person licensed under the provisions of this chapter. 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(10).

Manufactures must be licensed.

No person shall engage in the business of importing, manufacturing, or dealing in firearms, or importing or manufacturing ammunition, until he has filed an application with and received a license to do so from the Attorney General. The application shall be in such form and contain only that information necessary to determine eligibility for licensing as the Attorney General shall by regulation prescribe and shall include a photograph and fingerprints of the applicant…. 18 U.S.C. § 923(a).

However NFA items must be serialized and registered, regardless of who makes them. 27 C.F.R. § 479.102.

What does all this mean? Legality hinges on what is "engaging in the business of manufacturing firearms or ammunition purposes of sale or distribution." Make a receiver and give it to your son—there's distribution. Make a receiver and sell it three years later?

So what qualifies as making for your own use? Please see Wickard v. Filburn and Raich v. Gonzales. (Links are to Wikipedia articles, not the full Supreme court decisions.)

I don't feel its worth the risk. Also, home shop makers need to be very careful about their designs. Many types of designs are illegal as they are "readily convertible" to a machine gun. For example, it is illegal to make a gun that fires from an open bolt. How does one know if ATF is cool with a design, unless one first submits the design to FTB?

That's his answer. So, yes you guys, you can. But that don't make it smart. As a dealer I play it smart. As a gun owner I would also as I will not risk giving them anything that could put my gun rights at risk. \

I would also add that you made the weapon and once you are gone from this rock that weapon is illegal as it can not be transfered to anyone.

swifty
06-27-2011, 8:07 PM
(A6)
Does the GCA prohibit anyone
from making a handgun, shotgun
or rifle?

With certain exceptions a firearm
may be made by a nonlicensee provided
it is not for sale and the maker
is not prohibited from possessing
firearms. However, a person is prohibited
from assembling a nonsporting
semi-automatic rifle or nonsporting
shotgun from imported parts. In addition,
the making of an NFA firearm
requires a tax payment and approval
by ATF. An application to make a
machinegun will not be approved
unless documentation is submitted
showing that the firearm is being
made for a Federal or State agency.
[18 U.S.C. 922(o) and (r), 26 U.S.C.
5822, 27 CFR 478.39, 479.62 and
479.105]

Page 176 ~ ATF (http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf)

elSquid
06-27-2011, 8:14 PM
I don't feel its worth the risk. Also, home shop makers need to be very careful about their designs. Many types of designs are illegal as they are "readily convertible" to a machine gun. For example, it is illegal to make a gun that fires from an open bolt. How does one know if ATF is cool with a design, unless one first submits the design to FTB?


The link I gave is intended to show how to legally build up an ex-MG parts kit. It's quite explicit.


I would also add that you made the weapon and once you are gone from this rock that weapon is illegal as it can not be transfered to anyone.

Completely untrue. The link I gave also discusses that scenario:


Individuals manufacturing sporting-type firearms for their own use need not hold Federal Firearms Licenses (FFLs). However, we suggest that the manufacturer at least identify the firearm with a serial number as a safeguard in the event that the firearm is lost or stolen. Also, the firearm should be identified as required in 27 CFR 478.92 if it is sold or otherwise lawfully transferred in the future.

If you aren't interested, fine. But plenty of folks build their own guns; it's a well known practice and is completely legal.

-- Michael

bohoki
06-27-2011, 8:17 PM
i'm not aware of a common shotgun that has extreme availability of every single part

i think a few years ago the ar-15 has overtaken the 1911 in aftermarket parts availability

redrex
06-27-2011, 9:42 PM
Rem 870?

http://www.ar15products.net/itmidx19.htm

I don't know about "extreme" availability. But I guess that is kind of my point, if everyone was already doing this then we wouldn't be having this discussion. The real question is... Can it be done in a way that isn't outrageously expensive.

repubconserv
06-27-2011, 10:03 PM
I once thought the same thing, but found it kind of difficult to even find a stripped receiver, let alone an 80% block or flat. for shotguns (until a make it yourself receiver is available) just buy it as a package.

@aippi, you've been here since 2009 and you don't know it is legal to build your own firearm? Seriously, look around in the Gunsmithing Forum (I do understand you are in the business of selling firearms right? So people making their own guns and not having to go through an FFL might not be the best business plan for you... you probably care about that... you might not care about that at all... but either way, FUD is bad for the gun community)

motorwerks
06-27-2011, 10:36 PM
Are you are talking about building a receiver? Do you have the license for that. It takes a Manufacturers license. I think that is about 2K alone. I ask this because you mentioned casting a receiver. That would be a lot of jail time at club fed without that license.

People do not cast thier own AR lowers, they buy them.
So you now know why it is not done.


With all due respect you have no idea what you are talking about (you are correct about not "casting them", but that would be because they are forged in the first place). People do however from time to time if they have the tools machine them out of a billet.

http://www.cncguns.com/projects/ar15lower.html

Or, a LOT of people buy them as an 80% lower because it IS perfectly legal to do so and then complete the last 20% of the lower them selves. Best part is, you don't even need to label it unless you want to. Some of the kits only need a drill press and some time to complete, but most recommend some sort of endmill.

http://www.colfaxtactical.com/

80% AR-15 and AR .308 lowers that are on sale....

http://www.tacticalmachining.com/store/display-products.php?cid=38

10/22 receivers....

http://www.ruger1022receiver.com/

10/22's run about $219 for a complete gun.....
So you now know why it probably could be done.

cntrolsguy
06-27-2011, 10:41 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEWA3xQ7pOA

Lostsheep
06-27-2011, 10:46 PM
Since you guys know these laws can you give us the codes and where we can find them?

I believe you are shifting the burden of proof, laws don't state what can be done only what can't be.


ETA:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=86627

Put your trust in Gene

redrex
06-27-2011, 11:04 PM
Why couldn't you cast vs forged/milled? What is the metallurgical issue in play here?

And remember we are talking aluminum.

motorwerks
06-27-2011, 11:15 PM
Why couldn't you cast vs forged/milled? What is the metallurgical issue in play here?

And remember we are talking aluminum.

I was simply making a point about AR's, I would guess its purely metallurgical. I seem to remember plain old cast being more flexible v forged being more dense, and more durable.

motorwerks
06-27-2011, 11:29 PM
Thanks for the Chapter and code. This is part of an FAQ but references back to US Codes, I will read the entire US code and not base anything from an FAQ that does not go into detail. This is simply because these laws are not general and to take them generally is trouble

I e-mailed the question to an attorney who specializes in Firearms Law and I do business with. Here is his response.

Under the GCA, licensed manufacturers must serialize firearms.

Licensed importers and licensed manufacturers shall identify, by means of a serial number engraved or cast on the receiver or frame of the weapon, in such manner as the Attorney General shall by regulations prescribe, each firearm imported or manufactured by such importer or manufacturer. 18 U.S.C. § 923(i).

OK. So what's a manufacturer?

The term "manufacturer" means any person engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms or ammunition for purposes of sale or distribution; and the term "licensed manufacturer" means any such person licensed under the provisions of this chapter. 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(10).

Manufactures must be licensed.

No person shall engage in the business of importing, manufacturing, or dealing in firearms, or importing or manufacturing ammunition, until he has filed an application with and received a license to do so from the Attorney General. The application shall be in such form and contain only that information necessary to determine eligibility for licensing as the Attorney General shall by regulation prescribe and shall include a photograph and fingerprints of the applicant…. 18 U.S.C. § 923(a).

However NFA items must be serialized and registered, regardless of who makes them. 27 C.F.R. § 479.102.

What does all this mean? Legality hinges on what is "engaging in the business of manufacturing firearms or ammunition purposes of sale or distribution." Make a receiver and give it to your son—there's distribution. Make a receiver and sell it three years later?

So what qualifies as making for your own use? Please see Wickard v. Filburn and Raich v. Gonzales. (Links are to Wikipedia articles, not the full Supreme court decisions.)

I don't feel its worth the risk. Also, home shop makers need to be very careful about their designs. Many types of designs are illegal as they are "readily convertible" to a machine gun. For example, it is illegal to make a gun that fires from an open bolt. How does one know if ATF is cool with a design, unless one first submits the design to FTB?

That's his answer. So, yes you guys, you can. But that don't make it smart. As a dealer I play it smart. As a gun owner I would also as I will not risk giving them anything that could put my gun rights at risk. \

I would also add that you made the weapon and once you are gone from this rock that weapon is illegal as it can not be transfered to anyone.

This all has to do with younone of us are in the business of firearms we are all talking about personal use. They also can be transferred..... IF they are marked, they need to be marked just as if they were built by Smith and Wesson, or Remington, but with your information instead of say Remington, but it needs to have City and State etc, it can be given to a relative, hell even in California a long gun doesn't have to be transferred if its given to a relative.

patriot_man
06-28-2011, 3:01 AM
^
interesting info there...so if you make your own lower..and end up using it in say a home defense situation are there any consequences?

I would assume not. Assuming it is legal for you to own a firearm in the first place.

aippi
06-28-2011, 8:28 AM
Moter works - It has nothing to do with can you transfer a long gun. You can not transfer that one as you built it under a rule allowing you to build one for your "Personal use" not someone elses. Giving it to anyone is a violation. What the attorny is saying is that this is gray area and he gave two cases. He e-mailed me later and said read those cases. I have not had the time to look them up and read them yet but be assured I will. I am betting someone in one of those cases used this rule and got bit.

Many people pick through laws for loop holes and gray areas. They then become the crash dummys and test the laws meaning. Problem is that what one court can interpet the meaning may not be what another does. I personally do not want to be a crash dummy with my gun rights at risk and always play it safe.

Patriot Man brought up a good point. You build this and use it. Now you are the test dummy for this rule. If the local State Attorney has an issue with the shooting and BATF is hardcore you may be that crash dummy. I don't know if they will come up with anything to use against you but I dang sure know they will try.

I follow the BATF rules to the letter. Not just because I am a dealer but because we need many of those laws. Yet most gun owners only see the restrictive laws and yes there are too many of those and they restict my rights way beyond the intent of the founding fathers. This is a political problem and one we as gun owners have to address by lobby and by our vote. My heart goes out the gun owners in CA, IL, NY and other states that are so restrictive and I undestand the frustration. That is why I am on Calguns, that and there are some really great gun guys on this site and the moderators keep control.

repubconserv
06-28-2011, 11:11 AM
Moter works - It has nothing to do with can you transfer a long gun. You can not transfer that one as you built it under a rule allowing you to build one for your "Personal use" not someone elses. Giving it to anyone is a violation. What the attorny is saying is that this is gray area and he gave two cases. He e-mailed me later and said read those cases. I have not had the time to look them up and read them yet but be assured I will. I am betting someone in one of those cases used this rule and got bit.



This has been discussed many times here. As long as you did not build the gun for the express purpose of selling it, you built it for personal use. IE if you eventually get tired of using the gun you can sell it as long as it has your info on the receiver. I think there is a certain number of guns one can build in a year, and if that limit is exceeded it is no longer for personal use... but I could be wrong on that one. you might want to reread the link elsquid gave, it's helpful

swifty
06-28-2011, 12:29 PM
Aippi, you've been here since 2009 and you don't know it is legal to build your own firearm? Seriously, look around...

There are so many forums and sub-forums that I rarely look at most of them. There is only so much time so ya gotta look at what is of interest to you. There are forums here that I have never ever looked at, I'm sure others do the same.

aippi
06-28-2011, 1:58 PM
You can fill books with what I don't know about. And correct, this is of no interest to me and nothing I would do so like you said I have never research it. My post clearly states that and why. I looked it in to the comments of this post out of curiousity and I went to a person who does know as I will never, repeat never accept anything that someone post on the internet at face value without finding out from an authority. I concern with him that it is a gray area and could put someone at risk. Most of the guys coming to these forums, including me, do not have the knowledge or equipment to do something like this even if it was a good idea.

elSquid
06-28-2011, 2:46 PM
Most of the guys coming to these forums, including me, do not have the knowledge or equipment to do something like this even if it was a good idea.

There are ways to address that:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=292985

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=402515

:D

-- Michael

chaseface
06-28-2011, 3:09 PM
I thought the 80% AR thing was common knowledge, especially for people in the business

aippi
06-28-2011, 3:23 PM
Chase - I have no AR's, will not have AR's and have no use for AR's. So anything about an AR is of no interest to me. If you mean the business of being a gun dealer. I am not in that business. I have an ffl and build custom tactical shotguns. I do not deal in other firearms. So any information about an AR might only be common knowledge to people interested in AR's.

chaseface
06-28-2011, 4:17 PM
aippi - That makes a more sense now that I understand your situation.

As far as the original post I agree with everyone else that building your own shotgun is probably not cost efficient. But customizing a shotgun can be a lot of fun.

motorwerks
06-28-2011, 5:40 PM
But like with most guns I play with I have enough left over parts to almost build a second stock 11-87 so if someone has a spare receiver laying around.... I'd love to buy it. :D

redrex
06-28-2011, 9:50 PM
This brings new definition to the term Thread Jacking.

I would suggest that in the future if someone has a topic and people want to spin off a separate, even if related topic, that a new thread be started and then post a comment in the thread and use that to link to the new topic.