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AAShooter
06-26-2011, 4:02 PM
Here is a example of the effectiveness of birdshot against adversaries.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/06/25/article-0-0CBA1AF300000578-363_634x498.jpg


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2008078/Peppered-150-shotgun-pellets-Victim-survives-doctors-warn-die-25-years-earlier-remove-them.html

bob7122
06-26-2011, 4:06 PM
i would prob use rock salt

Dexster
06-26-2011, 4:16 PM
It's better than nothing, but why would you want someone that is threating your life to be able to continue to do it.

Example: He breaks in, you shoot him with birdshot, he is wearing a leather jacket that takes most of the projectials, he now returns fire on you... you die.

I keep 00 Buck, because if its my life or my familys then the bad guy will be pushing daisys.

plumbum
06-26-2011, 4:33 PM
It's all about effective range. This guy was on the end of effective range for birdshot, which is why the pellets span his entire back - that looks like two feet or more of spread. This guy was probably 20 yards away when he got hit, which doesn't sound like 'self defense' distances that I would be comfortable using bird shot; 20 feet would be more appropriate.

But yes, my 12's are loaded with 00 buck.

Mr.1904
06-26-2011, 4:39 PM
first two are birdshot, rest are slugs.

Turo
06-26-2011, 4:41 PM
Yeah, birdshot is extremely effective... if the person you are defending yourself takes 20-30 years to pull a gun out. :rolleyes:

That shot did not stop him. Birdshot is for killing birds that weigh a few ounces at most, buckshot is for taking large game and defending people against other people.

Don't rely on birdshot to stop an attacker.

Killawhale415
06-26-2011, 4:47 PM
Noooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!

frankm
06-26-2011, 4:49 PM
You could prob use #4 shot, I wouldn't use less.

sanjosebmx
06-26-2011, 4:56 PM
looks like he's still standing... ineffective....

hossb7
06-26-2011, 4:57 PM
why use a type of ammunition made for birds?

who seriously thinks that is even a remotely good idea?

Gatotsu77
06-26-2011, 5:07 PM
It's all about effective range. This guy was on the end of effective range for birdshot, which is why the pellets span his entire back - that looks like two feet or more of spread. This guy was probably 20 yards away when he got hit, which doesn't sound like 'self defense' distances that I would be comfortable using bird shot; 20 feet would be more appropriate.

But yes, my 12's are loaded with 00 buck.

If you read the article, you'd see that he was shot with sawed-off shotguns, thus massively expediting expansion of the shot pattern. I'd imagine he was no more than 10 feet from them when he got shot. (also, he was in his own home, running from the 2 gunmen at his front door... they wouldn't want for him to get upstairs and down the hall to shoot)

Those wounds are not just superficial, for the medical report to suggest they've perforated vital organs. The fact that he didn't bleed to death is a miracle. A leather jacket would not stop birdshot at that distance... and with the length of barrel most 12 gauge shotguns would have, the pattern would be a LOT tighter. I do not own a shotgun, so I don't know what I'd actually load it with. I used to think keeping the first round to be chambered as birdshot and the remainder as 00 buck would be the way to go... but if you have to kill a human who means to do you harm, it will not make much difference that you attempted to deffer them with a less-lethal approach. (that, and they could come back armed with something much nastier the next time) I really have no idea what I'd do... but birdshot out of a standard 18" smoothbore shotgun barrel at close range (5-15 feet) can easily be lethal, depending on where you hit them. Does it make it the best choice for home defense? I'd say no, and I'm certain most would agree. If such an intruder truly meant to harm me, I'd want to make sure they were unable to get back up, and that is why I keep my 1911 loaded with hollowpoints.

Dexster
06-26-2011, 5:23 PM
If you read the article, you'd see that he was shot with sawed-off shotguns, thus massively expediting expansion of the shot pattern. I'd imagine he was no more than 10 feet from them when he got shot. (also, he was in his own home, running from the 2 gunmen at his front door... they wouldn't want for him to get upstairs and down the hall to shoot)

Those wounds are not just superficial, for the medical report to suggest they've perforated vital organs. The fact that he didn't bleed to death is a miracle. A leather jacket would not stop birdshot at that distance... and with the length of barrel most 12 gauge shotguns would have, the pattern would be a LOT tighter. I do not own a shotgun, so I don't know what I'd actually load it with. I used to think keeping the first round to be chambered as birdshot and the remainder as 00 buck would be the way to go... but if you have to kill a human who means to do you harm, it will not make much difference that you attempted to deffer them with a less-lethal approach. (that, and they could come back armed with something much nastier the next time) I really have no idea what I'd do... but birdshot out of a standard 18" smoothbore shotgun barrel at close range (5-15 feet) can easily be lethal, depending on where you hit them. Does it make it the best choice for home defense? I'd say no, and I'm certain most would agree. If such an intruder truly meant to harm me, I'd want to make sure they were unable to get back up, and that is why I keep my 1911 loaded with hollowpoints.

Why use a 1911 for home defense? Why not use a Air Rifle? At least with your thinking process above :X

Mr. Beretta
06-26-2011, 5:28 PM
00 buck.

Nothing else needs to be said.

Adub
06-26-2011, 5:50 PM
A local police department was called to a situation where a man was waving around his gun at an apartment complex, police arrive and pulls out an 223 semi auto and opens fire on them; long story short, he was shot 3 times with 00 buck in 3 different limbs, was still reaching for his weapon that he fell on and is now awaiting trial. Don't think just because you have 00 buck and you hit them, they are going down.

That being said, 00 buck here. There are no warning shots when it comes to defending your life and even with a shotgun, shot placement reigns supreme but only when using the right ammo, and bird shot isn't the right ammo unless your life is threatened by birds.

AAShooter
06-26-2011, 5:57 PM
A local police department was called to a situation where a man was waving around his gun at an apartment complex, police arrive and pulls out an 223 semi auto and opens fire on them; long story short, he was shot 3 times with 00 buck in 3 different limbs, was still reaching for his weapon that he fell on and is now awaiting trial. Don't think just because you have 00 buck and you hit them, they are going down.

That being said, 00 buck here. There are no warning shots when it comes to defending your life and even with a shotgun, shot placement reigns supreme but only when using the right ammo, and bird shot isn't the right ammo unless your life is threatened by birds.

Do you have any references regarding this story?

Turo
06-26-2011, 6:14 PM
That being said, 00 buck here. There are no warning shots when it comes to defending your life and even with a shotgun, shot placement reigns supreme but only when using the right ammo, and bird shot isn't the right ammo unless your life is threatened by birds.

^this^

Shot placement is 90% of what matters here, If I shoot an intruder in the finger, It's not going to matter if I did it with birdshot, buckshot, or a 30mm depleted uranium round. He's probably going to survive and is probably going to be able to fight back minus a finger.

BUT

If I shoot him in the chest with birdshot, the pellets PROBABLY won't reach vital organs and PROBABLY won't cause enough damage to stop him especially if he's on drugs or very motivated. If he was shot with a large caliber of buckshot, the pellets PROBABLY will reach vital organs and cause enough damage to stop him.

Obviously the argument isn't cut and dry, but based on probability, you have a much higher chance that buckshot will stop the perp over birdshot when applied on the correct place on the perp's body.

Adub
06-26-2011, 6:15 PM
Do you have any references regarding this story?

http://www.fvpd.org/department/press/view.php?post_id=87

The information about the shotgun being the one to take him down was heard during a LEO only steel match at Raahauge's at the beginning of the year. I am not a LEO but was invited to watch and met fvpd officers.

Abra Philippines
06-26-2011, 6:15 PM
I hope they have a good person that does good drywall. A lot of plastering to do...

AAShooter
06-26-2011, 6:20 PM
http://www.fvpd.org/department/press/view.php?post_id=87

The information about the shotgun being the one to take him down was heard during a LEO only steel match at Raahauge's at the beginning of the year. I am not a LEO but was invited to watch and met fvpd officers.

Thanks.

JagerDog
06-26-2011, 6:23 PM
Well...I got shot point blank in both legs with #5's. The short story? While breaking up a dog fight, my friend lended a hand while his shotgun was still in his other hand. Though I durn near bled to death, I could've returned fire. So no....bird shot is ineffective as a man stopper. No it wasn't center mass, but depth of penetration was lacking. I still have 100 pellets in my hip. Buckshot woulda been at minimum a broken hip.

Helo'd out, 20 days in hospital, 7 months to return to work. Be safe.

Studies show #1 buck to be optimal penetration, vs. frontal area (caliber)

Turo
06-26-2011, 6:26 PM
Well...I got shot point blank in both legs with #5's. The short story? While breaking up a dog fight, my friend lended a hand while his shotgun was still in his other hand. Though I durn near bled to death, I could've returned fire. So no....bird shot is ineffective as a man stopper.

Helo'd out, 20 days in hospital, 7 months to return to work. Be safe.

Regardless of how I view birdshot as a defense against people, I can't say I agree with how you came to your conclusion. A better one would be "shooting someone in the legs is ineffective as a man stopper."

That said, I'm glad you are all healed up and I hope there's no lingering effects from it.

AAShooter
06-26-2011, 6:30 PM
Well...I got shot point blank in both legs with #5's. The short story? While breaking up a dog fight, my friend lended a hand while his shotgun was still in his other hand. Though I durn near bled to death, I could've returned fire. So no....bird shot is ineffective as a man stopper. No it wasn't center mass, but depth of penetration was lacking. I still have 100 pellets in my hip. Buckshot woulda been at minimum a broken hip.

Helo'd out, 20 days in hospital, 7 months to return to work. Be safe.

Studies show #1 buck to be optimal penetration, vs. frontal area (caliber)

Glad you made it through that one. Was that a hunting accident?

JagerDog
06-26-2011, 6:36 PM
Regardless of how I view birdshot as a defense against people, I can't say I agree with how you came to your conclusion. A better one would be "shooting someone in the legs is ineffective as a man stopper."

That said, I'm glad you are all healed up and I hope there's no lingering effects from it.

True, yet not. Buck would've at minimum broken a hip (some pros feel this is actually one of the quickest ways to take someone down). Likely woulda severed the femoral artery vs. poking holes in it. And the 4" average penetration shows major organs would not be traumatized enough.

The lingering effects (2+ years ago) are manageable. Some remaining nerve damage and my pantyhose modeling career up in flames.

AAShooter
06-26-2011, 6:40 PM
. . . my pantyhose modeling career up in flames.

LOL

PANTyRAiD
06-26-2011, 7:00 PM
Jager, I think had you been shot with buck, you still would have been able to return fire. Yes you would have had to do it quick, and from the ground, but non-the-less, the result would have been the same.

I think what Turo said holds true in this case. "A better one would be "shooting someone in the legs is ineffective as a man stopper." "

prc77
06-26-2011, 7:08 PM
anybody wonder why he is shot in the back and probable from several feet away

Turo
06-26-2011, 7:12 PM
anybody wonder why he is shot in the back and probable from several feet away

Didn't have to wonder, the article makes it pretty clear:
In December 2007, two men brandishing sawn-off shotguns opened fire on Mr Clarke when he answered the door of his home in Fairways, Consett, County Durham.
The steel or lead pellets entered his back, head and neck. He still managed to flee and only escaped possible death when a neighbour pulled him to safety inside their own home.
Eight months after the attack, which is alleged to have stemmed from a row with his former girlfriend, five men were charged with conspiring to murder him

smurfette
06-26-2011, 7:21 PM
I just read the article. but it doesn't say why they shot him.. do they know him? I'm not sure

JagerDog
06-26-2011, 7:31 PM
Jager, I think had you been shot with buck, you still would have been able to return fire. Yes you would have had to do it quick, and from the ground, but non-the-less, the result would have been the same.

I think what Turo said holds true in this case. "A better one would be "shooting someone in the legs is ineffective as a man stopper." "

I don't necessarily disagree. I don't think anyone would propose that shot placement be to the legs. But the penetration (or lack thereof), not dissimilar to the article produced, would indicate that even with proper placement, bird shot is a very poor choice to defend your life with (unless of course it's killer birds which are doing the attacking).

Close range shotgun with small'ish shot produces a very ugly wound. But as far as eliminating a threat, it's effect is more superficial even if it does prove to be deadly in the end. The point of any SD shooting is to stop the threat. No one really cares if the perp dies or not at that point.

My situation was only to reinforce what is/was already known to the educated, not be taken strictly on it's own. I found it interesting that the studies I've read with ballistic gelatin mirrored the penetration depths I experienced. It's also well documented that ~2/3 of LE shooting involve having to go through bone and/or at odd angles (requiring deeper penetration) to reach the intended vitals.

jeff762
06-26-2011, 7:33 PM
:beatdeadhorse5: here we go again. birdshot is not an effective home defense ammo. use 00 buck and shot placement.

bill_k_lopez
06-26-2011, 7:51 PM
how many time does the same question have to be asked?

Instead of birdshot here is an alternate, cheaper yet just as effective way to protect your family:

Keep a big stew pot and a metal spoon on the side of your bed, when you catch an intruder grab the pot and the spoon and bang them together - the noise should scare off the intruder.

AAShooter
06-26-2011, 7:59 PM
So when new information about a specific situation becomes available, we should not present it to the group since we have discussed similar things in the past? Clearly from past discussions, there are plenty of advocates for bird shot.

JagerDog
06-26-2011, 8:05 PM
how many time does the same question have to be asked?

Instead of birdshot here is an alternate, cheaper yet just as effective way to protect your family:

Keep a big stew pot and a metal spoon on the side of your bed, when you catch an intruder grab the pot and the spoon and bang them together - the noise should scare off the intruder.

Until the myth is dispelled?

I've always loved the "racking of a 12g pump" technique too.

bill_k_lopez
06-26-2011, 8:14 PM
So when new information about a specific situation becomes available, we should not present it to the group since we have discussed similar things in the past? Clearly from past discussions, there are plenty of advocates for bird shot.

Where are all the birdshot advocates?

http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff509/bill_k_lopez/tumbleweed.gif

When someone enters your home, and you shoot them - you kill them. If the guy in the OP picture was an intruder - thats the picture his lawyer would be showing the jury as he sued you.

Birdshots great, especially if you happen to have the barrel of the gun pressed against the intruder.

shortround1
06-26-2011, 9:02 PM
He just has chicken pox, that's all.;)

Gatotsu77
06-26-2011, 9:13 PM
Why use a 1911 for home defense? Why not use a Air Rifle? At least with your thinking process above :X


If such an intruder truly meant to harm me, I'd want to make sure they were unable to get back up, and that is why I keep my 1911 loaded with hollowpoints.


Perhaps I should have rephrased my above statement... if an intruder demonstrates the potentiality for wishing to cause me harm or worse, I will show no reservation in shooting until they are dead. If it is some petty thief trying to steal my pc monitor, it is my hope that I will terrify him with the face of certain death, that perhaps he'll reconsider the value of his own life, and change his ways. If a petty thief gets violent, I will still pull the trigger, and keep doing so until they are unable to move. I'd love to own a shotgun, it just isn't in the budget at the moment. (besides, I live in an apartment with a neighbor straight out past my front door. I realize there is just as great a chance I will do some collateral damage with a handgun, but I feel that has a bit more control than the expansion of a group of lead pellets)

coy80176
06-26-2011, 9:17 PM
if you've got a bird breaking into your house and flying right atcha :rolleyes:

Otherwise, be prudent and use 00s.

redrex
06-26-2011, 9:22 PM
My HD is a pistol to get me to my gun cabinet. In there I have a choice. Saiga in .223 if I'm really pissed or my Mossy 500 with 18.5 barrel and tactical light.

In the mag is 00. In the side saddle are slugs. And on the stock are two Plastic Shot. Used to be bird but a friend gave me a couple of these.

WHY? Believe it or not guys there ARE real cases where you might need them. There was a video of a girl in Oakland last week, where she taped the guy carrying her electronics our her front door in the middle of the day. Of course he then came in and raped her. The sad thing is that if she had shot him BEFORE he raped her, she would have done more jail time then her.

You can say all the "Better to be judged by 16 then carried by 6" type stuff you want but I have been in stand off situation with crazy/stupid people where if I had pulled a gun and shot I would be, most likely, in jail.

Having a less then lethal solution at hand makes sense. Especially in the PRK

doubleactiononly
06-26-2011, 9:53 PM
WHY? Believe it or not guys there ARE real cases where you might need them. There was a video of a girl in Oakland last week, where she taped the guy carrying her electronics our her front door in the middle of the day. Of course he then came in and raped her. The sad thing is that if she had shot him BEFORE he raped her, she would have done more jail time then her.

Just wondering .. could you explain why the girl would have gone to jail? I'm probably going to butcher legal terms left and right here, but rape is considered deadly force, and so shouldn't she be allowed to defend herself?

However, the act of even pointing a gun at someone is considered assault, never mind shooting them with birdshot. If the girl had pointed a gun at the robber, and/or shot the robber with birdshot, I see only two outcomes. If she shot merely to stop the robber from walking off with her stuff, then it's entirely possible she'd go to jail for assault with a deadly weapon. If she shot the robber to try to stop him from raping her, she'd probably be raped and dead.

JagerDog
06-26-2011, 9:59 PM
Always easy to think afterwards (hence it good to study cases and figure out what the right move is before it's YOU). But that would've been a clear time to vacate and call 911.

Foriegn power
06-26-2011, 9:59 PM
I would take birdshot if I had nothing else. Also if you pumped enough birdshot into the subjects body and face I'm sure they'll bleed out.

bsg
06-26-2011, 10:23 PM
no.

Adub
06-26-2011, 10:26 PM
Also if you pumped enough birdshot into the subjects body and face I'm sure they'll bleed out.

I would say no (penetrating the neck, sure) but eyes are pretty vital to see what they are attacking so I would hope you would have an advantage after a round to a perp's face.

redrex
06-26-2011, 10:30 PM
You can not use deadly force to protect property. They would have said that he was just stealing property and that she was not in danger and that she should have called the cops.

In the vid, it takes place mid day, the guy is calm, and there is nothing that would make you believe that he was going to escalate it to that level. Other then common sense that is.

The issue is that you can not use deadly force if you can not reasonably believe your life is in danger. The problem is there are lots of room for grey areas.

redcliff
06-26-2011, 11:15 PM
You can not use deadly force to protect property. They would have said that he was just stealing property and that she was not in danger and that she should have called the cops.

In the vid, it takes place mid day, the guy is calm, and there is nothing that would make you believe that he was going to escalate it to that level. Other then common sense that is.

The issue is that you can not use deadly force if you can not reasonably believe your life is in danger. The problem is there are lots of room for grey areas.

California Penal Code 197:
Homicide is also justifiable when committed by any person in
any of the following cases:
1. When resisting any attempt to murder any person, or to commit a
felony, or to do some great bodily injury upon any person; or,
2. When committed in defense of habitation, property, or person,
against one who manifestly intends or endeavors, by violence or
surprise, to commit a felony, or against one who manifestly intends
and endeavors, in a violent, riotous or tumultuous manner, to enter
the habitation of another for the purpose of offering violence to any
person therein; or,
3. When committed in the lawful defense of such person, or of a
wife or husband, parent, child, master, mistress, or servant of such
person, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design to
commit a felony or to do some great bodily injury, and imminent
danger of such design being accomplished; but such person, or the
person in whose behalf the defense was made, if he was the assailant
or engaged in mutual combat, must really and in good faith have
endeavored to decline any further struggle before the homicide was
committed; or,
4. When necessarily committed in attempting, by lawful ways and
means, to apprehend any person for any felony committed, or in
lawfully suppressing any riot, or in lawfully keeping and preserving
the peace.

1998 m4a1
06-27-2011, 2:12 AM
birdshot is a good idea, all the hurt but not of the deadlyness. do it!

call-in
06-27-2011, 8:23 AM
birdshot is a good idea, all the hurt but not of the deadlyness. do it!

I'm sorry but I'm denser than a brick wall so I don't quite get if you are joking or not.

Probably 9 out of 10 simply loading a round in to the chamber will scare the intruder off your property without the hurt or the deadlyness, but if that did not scare him then I have a welcoming party of 9 pellets for him and four more groups waiting to spring the surprise.

.22guy
06-27-2011, 8:29 AM
That had to sting!

mif_slim
06-27-2011, 8:33 AM
I wouldnt say birdshot is not ineffective. It is effective but at much shorter distance then say 00 buckshot or something with heavier mass. I've seen what #7.5 do at close range to wood thats 3" diameter...Im sure it'll rip thru flesh like nothing...but like I said, its effectiveness is not suitable for HD.

Im a 00/#4 Buckshot. 00 for one of my home that is built with bricks so no concerns about over penetration. #4 for my other home with lighter walls.

meaty-btz
06-27-2011, 8:57 AM
Slug (1oz or larger or some of the new fangled 400 grain hollow point versions), because shot placement ceases to matter.

Hit a guy with a 12 gauge slug in the shoulder and he wont have an arm. Hit him in the leg with a slug and he wont have a leg. Hit him in the guts and you could pitch a softball through the place his intestines used to be. Hit him in the head or neck and you decapitate him. 12 Gauge slug is no laughing matter and causes horrific wounds.

I use high velocity slug for home defense. The recoil isn't that bad. I could see in a city being hesitant but slugs lose energy fairly quickly (wide slug transfers energy faster, slows quickly) in most materials. But if all you have is those paper houses they build in cities these days I can understand.

redrex
06-27-2011, 9:20 AM
[B]2. When committed in defense of habitation, property, or person,
against one who manifestly intends or endeavors, by violence [U]or
surprise, to commit a felony, or against one who manifestly intends
and endeavors, in a violent, riotous or tumultuous manner, to enter
the habitation of another for the purpose of offering violence to any
person therein; or,


"When in defense"? They are unarmed, it's the middle of the day and you have a loaded gun, and you are going to hang your hat on this clause?

I can see the DA now. "Lets discuss what the definition of DEFENSE is".

Do a Google search and you will see police chiefs and DA's saying time and time again, lethal force can not be used if you are not in physical danger.

resident-shooter
06-27-2011, 10:50 AM
His skin is not gray enough to call birdshot effective. #4 buck is the best bet imhos

MossbergMan
06-27-2011, 11:33 AM
A word to the wise for all of those of you who opine that you will "shoot an intruder to death" have for all intents and purposes proclaimed your intention to murder.
Using deadly force in the right circumstances does not allow you intentionally kill your assailant(s). Although they may die as result of their injuries, it is not our place to deliberately execute. It should be our intention is to stop the threat as fast as humanly possible. If they die as a result of our defensive shooting, so be it, but it cannot be articulated that you intended to kill them. If so, you've deprived your "victim" of due process and violated their civil rights.
I understand that this is all a matter of vocabulary, but it's an important point to remain out of jail/prison.
Another point is if you less than lethal munitions in CA. and you are not a peace officer, looks like you have violated the law PC 19400.

19400. A person who is a peace officer or a custodial officer, as
defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of Title 3 of
Part 2, may, if authorized by and under the terms and conditions as
are specified by the person's employing agency, purchase, possess, or
transport any less lethal weapon or ammunition for any less lethal
weapon, for official use in the discharge of the person's duties.

Although I understand the relectance to possibily taking a human life two issues raise their ugly heads. 1 - You use a LTL munition and the intruder dies as a result of blunt trauma. By using a LTL round you are declaring in no uncertain terms, that in your own mind DEADLY FORCE was unnecessary, only wounding force. This means you used the wrong tool for the job. Read: Wrongful Death. 2- It may not stop the attacker(s) in time for you to rack another round (lethal ammunition) into your chamber. Read you lose the fight because you chose the wrong ammunition (LTL).
If you use a firearm to defend your life or someone elses it's got to be a deadly force issue. Use the appropriate ammunition for deadly force.....
Nobody can anticipate what I call the "human reaction factor". Sure those not looking for an altercation may very well be detered by the sound of a SG chambering a round or from a hit from birdshot (it incapcatied a friend mine who took a load of 7.5 shot to the face-blinded in one eye) but then again he wasn't jacked up looking for a fight either. It's my experience that no one wants to be shot with anything. But there are those that are not dealing in our realm of reality. They are mentally disfunctional, chemically enhanced or just bent on your destruction at any price. The most dangerous animal is the wounded animal. If your response fails to totally incapacate your assailant(s) you may find yourself facing a very determined opponent. You do not want to find your self in a wrestling match over your SG.
Consider over penetration issues, but for God's sake don't use an inferior type of ammunition because of it. Establish Free Fire and No Fire zones of engagement. And if you can't keep your pattern inside the size of your bedroom door and shoot center of mass....then get a fire extinguisher sized can of pepper spray and a good cell phone. There's very few reasons to go "hunting" for an intruder. The barricaded defender has the overwhelming advantage in a home invasion scenario.
Just my observations from years of being there and doing that.

plumbum
06-27-2011, 12:33 PM
... if you can't keep your pattern inside the size of your bedroom door and shoot center of mass....then get a fire extinguisher sized can of pepper spray and a good cell phone. There's very few reasons to go "hunting" for an intruder. The barricaded defender has the overwhelming advantage in a home invasion scenario.
Just my observations from years of being there and doing that.

As an apartment dweller, I have to take into consideration that since I can hear what my neighbors are doing 24 hours a day, our walls won't be absorbing very much kinetic energy should a firearm be discharged. Also the longest possible shot (if I stand in my bathtub) would be 32 feet, and that corridor is a short, offset hallway.
Properly 'hunkered down' in the bedroom, cellphone and shotgun in hand, the range to my door is 12 feet. This angle gives me a safe trajectory away from other tenants, and the spread of my 'cone of force' is backed by closets and large kitchen appliances; a safe backstop for real buckshot in my opinion. If it were not the case, I would consider something lighter, but even thin walls should be able to slow down #4 (6mm) buckshot sufficiently... I mean if you live in a teepee or a greenhouse then lean on a warm dose of #2 shot if you must.

HK Dave
06-27-2011, 12:36 PM
No!!!!

stix213
06-27-2011, 12:50 PM
Bird shot is pretty nasty at hallway distances, but I'd still go 00

AAShooter
06-28-2011, 7:00 AM
Slug (1oz or larger or some of the new fangled 400 grain hollow point versions), because shot placement ceases to matter.

Hit a guy with a 12 gauge slug in the shoulder and he wont have an arm. Hit him in the leg with a slug and he wont have a leg. Hit him in the guts and you could pitch a softball through the place his intestines used to be. Hit him in the head or neck and you decapitate him. 12 Gauge slug is no laughing matter and causes horrific wounds.

I use high velocity slug for home defense. The recoil isn't that bad. I could see in a city being hesitant but slugs lose energy fairly quickly (wide slug transfers energy faster, slows quickly) in most materials. But if all you have is those paper houses they build in cities these days I can understand.

Why not just use a rifle?

Bluhdow!
06-28-2011, 7:15 AM
I keep birdshot loaded in my 887 for HD.

Main reason: I don't want to kill anyone.

If I found myself in front of a jury using a load of birdshot in a hunting rifle is much more defensible than a 7.62 out of my AK.

Sicarius
06-28-2011, 9:51 AM
Here is a example of the effectiveness of birdshot against adversaries.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/06/25/article-0-0CBA1AF300000578-363_634x498.jpg


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2008078/Peppered-150-shotgun-pellets-Victim-survives-doctors-warn-die-25-years-earlier-remove-them.html

I bet this person is glad that it wasn't 00 buck. If he was shot square in the back with buck, he wouldn't be breathing right now...
Kevin

JDPhx501
06-28-2011, 9:51 AM
I was under the impression that in this state no good deed goes unpunished, that if the situation is really bad enough to justify using a gun, you'd had better shot to kill than wound/maim.

Reductio
06-28-2011, 9:55 AM
I keep birdshot loaded in my 887 for HD.

Main reason: I don't want to kill anyone.

If I found myself in front of a jury using a load of birdshot in a hunting rifle is much more defensible than a 7.62 out of my AK.

If you don't want to kill anybody then you shouldn't be using what the court WILL consider LETHAL FORCE.

Get a wiffle bat.

OpticsPlanet
06-28-2011, 10:02 AM
Why even waste all this time discussing the effectiveness (or lack thereof) on the use of bird shot for home defense! It's ridiculous! Why not use an airsoft gun to defend you and your family? The purpose of the home defense firearm is just that. You should select the most effective ammunition to stop the threat in the fewest amount of shots. 'Nuf sed!

George P.

Ergo the Qualmed
06-28-2011, 10:30 AM
I keep birdshot loaded in my 887 for HD.

Main reason: I don't want to kill anyone.

If I found myself in front of a jury using a load of birdshot in a hunting rifle is much more defensible than a 7.62 out of my AK.


Why would you want anything less than lethality from an application of deadly force?

If you feel that the threat to your life is not reasonable enough to merit stopping the threat as quickly as possible...why would you use a gun? How will THAT look to the jury?

Sure, an AK is evil, but if you need to use a firearm to defend your LIFE, you want the greatest chance of stopping the threat. Using admittedly less-than-super-deadly birdshot only shows "I didn't really fear for my life," and thus a firearm was not necessary.

Hell, even "warning shots" are discouraged, because obviously you didn't think you were in that much danger if immediate incapacitation of the threat was not required. Same applies here. If you don't need the threat stopped NOW, then you don't need a gun at all.

Am I right?

killathrilla
06-28-2011, 10:33 AM
...

Str8shutr
06-28-2011, 10:36 AM
I simply cannot believe that grown men who call themselves "gun guys" would EVER...in ANY situation, suggest the use of birdshot for defense.

ANYTHING coming out of the end of a FIREARM is deemed LETHEL force.
(If you dont think so, use your birdshot, visiting hours at San Quentin are 12 to 5 M-F)

Still foolish enough to use it....Take a sheet of plywood out to the desert. Staple a t-shirt on it, shoot it with your bird shot from 15 feet away (REAL life defense distance)
If you then think what your using is a RESPONSIBLE, EFFECTIVE defense load....well then, best of luck to ya.

Erin
06-28-2011, 10:42 AM
my bird shot patterns look like that at 10 ft out of my 18in mossy. at the same distance with 00 its a fist sized hole.
based on that i disagree and say, he was shot pretty close. no more that 15-18 ft unless it was a long barrel hunting gun

Turo
06-28-2011, 10:43 AM
You guys are killing me! If you have kids in your home, or have neighbors in close proximity to your property then bird shot is your ONLY option. I love hearing all of these Johnny Rambos talk a big talk with all of the big ammo. Look it's simple...ur not in combat...ur not dealing with the collapse of modern society and dealing with looters and rape gangs. If someone does break in your house get yourself into a defensive position with your family behind you in the corner with wifey armed as well and call 911. You have homeowners insurance so relax red dawners lol....slugs will kill neighbors two doors down...buck will over penetrate to about next door...loading a round in a mossy or remmy will scare the sh$% out of most and if they don't find the closest window and still proceed towards you then have a blast...no pun intended.

Since you are telling us that buckshot and slugs are so overpenetrative, how about some actual tests to back up your claims? I'd love to see a 12ga slug go through an entire 2 houses and still have enough energy to kill. I'd also be tickled to death if you could manage to shoot buckshot out of one house, through the outer layers of a neighboring house, and still have enough energy to kill.

I'd say you are the one making outrageous claims, much more so than people with real life experience claiming that birdshot is probably not going to stop somebody that is a danger to someone's life.

killathrilla
06-28-2011, 10:58 AM
...

Gatotsu77
06-28-2011, 10:58 AM
http://www.theboxotruth.com/

One or two walls will not stop 00 buck or a slug.

killathrilla
06-28-2011, 11:09 AM
I simply cannot believe that grown men who call themselves "gun guys" would EVER...in ANY situation, suggest the use of birdshot for defense.

ANYTHING coming out of the end of a FIREARM is deemed LETHEL force.
(If you dont think so, use your birdshot, visiting hours at San Quentin are 12 to 5 M-F)

Still foolish enough to use it....Take a sheet of plywood out to the desert. Staple a t-shirt on it, shoot it with your bird shot from 15 feet away (REAL life defense distance)
If you then think what your using is a RESPONSIBLE, EFFECTIVE defense load....well then, best of luck to ya.
I have been shooting for 30 years misc firearms and all different kinds of types of ammunition and I would definately consider myself a "gun guy". I would however consider myself a "gun guy" with common sense when it comes to HOME DEFENSE. Again..we are not in Bagdad or Fallujah and anyone feeling like they have to be all uber-tastic with these heavy hitting rounds in thier house sounds insecure and little scary.

Reductio
06-28-2011, 11:10 AM
Dude...go out and shoot slugs or buck at a couple pieces of dry wall with some other misc. stuff behind it and watch it go right through the materials and keep on going. When I was researching what would get the job done for me the home owner I did that very same test with materials that was at the local outdoor shooting area so I don't need to try to get into some balistics test arguement. If you really want to kill someone then do what you want to do. I for one don't ever want to have to kill someone but would rather deter probably some punk pre 18 kid who is probably out to score some liquor or steal some video games for drugs. If I have to to discharge a weapon in the defense of my family and my home then I'm more then comfortable doing so for up to 10 meters with some bird shot.

If you're looking to deter somebody without killing them quit using lethal force. This is not rocket science.

Ergo the Qualmed
06-28-2011, 11:10 AM
Dude...go out and shoot slugs or buck at a couple pieces of dry wall with some other misc. stuff behind it and watch it go right through the materials and keep on going. When I was researching what would get the job done for me the home owner I did that very same test with materials that was at the local outdoor shooting area so I don't need to try to get into some balistics test arguement. If you really want to kill someone then do what you want to do. I for one don't ever want to have to kill someone but would rather deter probably some punk pre 18 kid who is probably out to score some liquor or steal some video games for drugs. If I have to to discharge a weapon in the defense of my family and my home then I'm more then comfortable doing so for up to 10 meters with some bird shot.

Wait, do you mean deter them with birdshot?:confused:

drangel
06-28-2011, 11:11 AM
I like #4 buck myself--will do plenty of damage in close like a house fight, but over penetration is not as pronounced as 00 buck.

knucklehead0202
06-28-2011, 11:14 AM
OO buck is fine if you live in the middle of nowhere, alone. i, however, would prefer not to shoot my children and neighbors through the walls. as for experience, using the cheap 22-dollar per 100 general purpose shot from wal-mart, i cut a piece of 3/4" plywood in half with it. this was at a range of approx. 15ft. in my experience, people are softer than plywood. in my shotgun are 4 rds of birdshot, and 3 of #4 buck. OO buck is way too much for HD but sure sounds tough.

drangel
06-28-2011, 11:20 AM
http://www.theboxotruth.com/

One or two walls will not stop 00 buck or a slug.

Thanks for the good info!

killathrilla
06-28-2011, 11:25 AM
...

mif_slim
06-28-2011, 11:27 AM
my bird shot patterns look like that at 10 ft out of my 18in mossy. at the same distance with 00 its a fist sized hole.
based on that i disagree and say, he was shot pretty close. no more that 15-18 ft unless it was a long barrel hunting gun

That is a sucky barrel you have there. Mines about fist size at 10' maybe a little less..

IPSICK
06-28-2011, 1:41 PM
Why even waste all this time discussing the effectiveness (or lack thereof) on the use of bird shot for home defense! It's ridiculous! Why not use an airsoft gun to defend you and your family? The purpose of the home defense firearm is just that. You should select the most effective ammunition to stop the threat in the fewest amount of shots. 'Nuf sed!

George P.

I stopped reading after this. Not just 'nuff said, but well said!

negolien
06-28-2011, 1:47 PM
It's better than nothing, but why would you want someone that is threating your life to be able to continue to do it.

Example: He breaks in, you shoot him with birdshot, he is wearing a leather jacket that takes most of the projectials, he now returns fire on you... you die.

I keep 00 Buck, because if its my life or my familys then the bad guy will be pushing daisys.

Well if that's the case load up some 3 and a half inch slugs /shrug. Differant loads for differant folks. I use #8 Buck myself but whatever helps someone sleep at night.

meaty-btz
06-28-2011, 2:12 PM
I love this attitude that bullets are heat-seeking child killers and neighbor killers that will punch through walls and home in on and kill your dog, cat, bird, fish, and then your toddler turning them all into bloody messes on the wall before continuing on out to your neighbors house to repeat the same process. They are the spawn of satan I tell you!!!!!

What I love most about this forum is the FEAR AND FUD of people in this state. Also, the city folk crack me up even more than the average Californian Koolaid Drinker. Box of truth tests against drywall, not exterior walls. Why? Because exterior walls vary greatly in construction and strength. Always makes me glad I am out of the city again. Can't stand living with city people and their constant fear and noisy neighbors and bored gang kids. If I am going to engage someone in a contest of life or death, I am going to bring the tool that stops him in one go, even if he isn't dead massive trauma will stop all but the most amped tweaker.

Also, I don't have kids. I don't have dogs. Three people live in this house. The nearest neighbor is 100 yards out.

Going back to the box of truth, the slug won't lose much energy going through drywall, nothing will (except maybe BBs fired from an airgun). If they hit a 2x4" stud they will lose massive amounts of energy. If they hit a person, even more so as the watery bag of bones is a great energy loss medium with a large surface area to transfer energy from the slug into the medium (body tissues).

Considering I shoot slugs often and in my back yard at a variety of materials the performance of slugs is.. interesting. For example they will punch through stainless steel fairly easily and cast metal as well but lose so much energy that they cant even punch more than 1" deep into soft dirt afterwards.

As for the just use a rifle. Arguably a rifle is the more deadly weapon, however, the slug causes more trauma, which is what we want. In addition you are going to have to use an SBR to gain the same maneuverability indoors with a rifle vs a short self defense shotgun but I think overall both are effective weapons. I also don't have a nice SBR black rifle to use so I go with the 18" barreled mossy.

So my recommendation is that if you are tied up with fear and "what ifs" concerning the use of your firearm, don't use one. You are not mentally prepared yet to properly use your weapon in a defensive manner and if you do use it you will more likely to cause or be caused harm through the misuse of your weapon. Same thing goes for the once a year shooters or the "paper shooters". There is so much lack of understanding in the firearms communities born out of fear of being labeled as something if they actually trained properly and that was all implanted there intentionally to neuter them. Shooting Paper is a sport and except for the absolute basics does nothing to prepare you to actually use your weapon to defend your life. Go out and get trained because I don't want to be the neighbor to someone who got shot with their own gun because they just wanted to "scare" or "wound" someone. Let alone someone who is irresponsible enough to do such a dumb thing like warning shots that end up heading my way because they are scared blind and no longer thinking straight and have no training to take over during such time so they just are some random person being random with a deadly weapon.

killathrilla
06-28-2011, 2:41 PM
...

plumbum
06-28-2011, 10:06 PM
I think I'm going to go load up my .410 with some 3", 3/8 oz of #6 steel shot and call it good enough... I feel pretty good with a headshot. :D

pyro3k2
06-28-2011, 10:50 PM
I think I'm going to go load up my .410 with some 3", 3/8 oz of #6 steel shot and call it good enough... I feel pretty good with a headshot. :D

+1 with the .410 and -10 with the head shot comment.


I would rather use any 3inch 000 buck or "Disc" rounds out of a .410 shotgun than bird shot out of a 12ga. My thinking behind the birdshot was so that my wife could operate the 12ga incase the bad guys showed up while I wasn't home. I took her to the range and after seeing her unable to operate the 12ga even with bird shot I decided to explore other options. The 16ga and 20ga were still decent for her but she still wasn't able to contect well under stressfull shooting condistions. I measured out the farthest realistic point of shooting in my house to be 21 feet or 7 yards ( I know my house has an odd floor plan). 000buck or the triple disc .410 rounds are more than enough at that distence to get the job done effectively and allow for my very tiny wife to confidently operate this shotgun.

If you are considering using birdshot as a means of "non-leathal" force may I recommend simply ordering some bean bag rounds or rubber buck shot and the last round in your tube be buck/slug.

greyhd
06-28-2011, 11:00 PM
Just tonight I swapped out my HD shotguns with PDX rounds (1oz slug, 3 00 buck combo rounds).:)

meaty-btz
06-29-2011, 7:16 AM
I want to be perfectly clear here because of what I am reading and because of killthrilla's commentary.

If you are not prepared to defend yourself, your home, or your family psychologically then DO NOT ENGAGE THE PERP. Listen to what the police tell you on 911 and barricade yourself and your loved ones and wait for the arrival of the police. When you engage someone you escalate the situation and if you do that you had damn well better be ready for the consequences (death, yours or theirs, lawsuit, injury, collateral damage). Retreat, disengage, barricade, or hide and live.

You are not playing checkers with your opponent so just treat the situation for how serious it is. Don't go rambo, don't play MW4dude and go "house clearing". Hell, maybe take your shotgun and go hunting with it first, see how you handle psychologically taking the life of an animal and having to watch it die by your hand, then clean it and gut it and serve it for dinner. If that makes you squeamish then you might hesitate vs the 2 legged predators in this world and if you hesitate you very well might die for it.

Even for those prepared to defend themselves I am very big on barricading ones self and family. Being able to create a defensive position in your home(or elsewhere) with whatever is on hand is a very good skill to have.

plumbum
06-29-2011, 7:31 AM
"...DO NOT ENGAGE THE PERP. Listen to what the police tell you on 911 and barricade yourself and your loved ones and wait for the arrival of the police."
"...for those prepared to defend themselves I am very big on barricading ones self and family. Being able to create a defensive position in your home(or elsewhere) with whatever is on hand is a very good skill to have."

Exactly

I would rather use any 3inch 000 buck or "Disc" rounds out of a .410 shotgun than bird shot out of a 12ga.

I'm curious about those .410, 3" 4 disc/16 BB loads myself, it's like a 'Mentos of Doom' ...

killathrilla
06-29-2011, 8:28 AM
...

advocatusdiaboli
06-29-2011, 2:41 PM
Could bird shot work? Sure if you hit the perps eyes and blinded him. But otherwise, you should consider a shot size effective enough to do significant damage where ever it hits the perp—even it it ducks or covers up. I can see arguing 00 versus 0 as some tests have shown the increased number of pellets with 0 is advantageous over 00. But I wouldn't go any lower myself.

TNP'R
06-29-2011, 3:08 PM
I want to be perfectly clear here because of what I am reading and because of killthrilla's commentary.

If you are not prepared to defend yourself, your home, or your family psychologically then DO NOT ENGAGE THE PERP. Listen to what the police tell you on 911 and barricade yourself and your loved ones and wait for the arrival of the police. When you engage someone you escalate the situation and if you do that you had damn well better be ready for the consequences (death, yours or theirs, lawsuit, injury, collateral damage). Retreat, disengage, barricade, or hide and live.

You are not playing checkers with your opponent so just treat the situation for how serious it is. Don't go rambo, don't play MW4dude and go "house clearing". Hell, maybe take your shotgun and go hunting with it first, see how you handle psychologically taking the life of an animal and having to watch it die by your hand, then clean it and gut it and serve it for dinner. If that makes you squeamish then you might hesitate vs the 2 legged predators in this world and if you hesitate you very well might die for it.

Even for those prepared to defend themselves I am very big on barricading ones self and family. Being able to create a defensive position in your home(or elsewhere) with whatever is on hand is a very good skill to have.

Good post, although in some situations its not easy to barricade the whole family especially if you have kids on the first or second floor and you are on the opposite floor or the kids are closer to the perps entry.

Volksgrenadier
06-29-2011, 3:16 PM
This:
http://www.federalpremium.com/products/details/buckshot.aspx?id=909

Easily manageable recoil. Out of my 18.5" Remington factory cylinder bore barrel, shot pattern at 20 yards is a cluster 4-5 inches across. Nine copper plated pellets.

advocatusdiaboli
06-29-2011, 3:55 PM
I want to be perfectly clear here because of what I am reading and because of killthrilla's commentary.

If you are not prepared to defend yourself, your home, or your family psychologically then DO NOT ENGAGE THE PERP. Listen to what the police tell you on 911 and barricade yourself and your loved ones and wait for the arrival of the police. When you engage someone you escalate the situation and if you do that you had damn well better be ready for the consequences (death, yours or theirs, lawsuit, injury, collateral damage). Retreat, disengage, barricade, or hide and live.

You are not playing checkers with your opponent so just treat the situation for how serious it is. Don't go rambo, don't play MW4dude and go "house clearing". Hell, maybe take your shotgun and go hunting with it first, see how you handle psychologically taking the life of an animal and having to watch it die by your hand, then clean it and gut it and serve it for dinner. If that makes you squeamish then you might hesitate vs the 2 legged predators in this world and if you hesitate you very well might die for it.

Even for those prepared to defend themselves I am very big on barricading ones self and family. Being able to create a defensive position in your home(or elsewhere) with whatever is on hand is a very good skill to have.

I would have thought this was obvious, but maybe it needed saying. Good advice as long as the family is assembled with you. If they are not, get them with you and then do it. If you barricade and defend you have a huge advantage over the perps who have to come, without cover, for you. I'd bet most won't bother. they want property and don't want trouble. Property can be replaced, lives cannot. Always do this if you can. And with 0 or 00 shot.

applevalleyjoe
07-25-2011, 10:39 PM
He just has chicken pox, that's all.;)

Right...and not only that, he is REALLY pissed off now! Use #4 buck followed with some 00 buck! That will make a believer out of him!

BlackViper
07-26-2011, 12:40 PM
Step 1: come up with a plan of action for your particular home and its inhabitants
Step 2: decide which weapon(s) will best suit you for your particular plan of action
Step 3: decide which ammo is best suited to that weapon for your intended use
Step 4: (optional) argue about it on the internet

These are all different for everyone. In my house alone, in some scenarios, a pistol is more quickly and covertly reached, a shotgun can more effectively defend, and a rifle can more effectively clear rooms. Whichever it is, be confident it can stop the threat it is intended for.

That said, birdshot has very narrow utility. If you're convinced that's all you need then great. You might want to put a couple shells of buck and slugs in a side saddle though just in case a tweaker in a raiders parka comes through your door at 3am.

Bucc
07-26-2011, 2:22 PM
If you read the article, you'd see that he was shot with sawed-off shotguns, thus massively expediting expansion of the shot pattern. I'd imagine he was no more than 10 feet from them when he got shot.


I quoted that because I want to address what I see as something of an urban (or rural) legend. The length of barrel hasn't really got that much to do with the spread. Not, at least as much as you'd think. A few inches as measures in tens of feet at best. The choke has more to do with it but even with zero restriction as in a SBS the pattern won't open up THAT much at a mere ten feet. Trust me, I have a good amount of time in short barreled shotties with all manner of shot loads and they just don't spread that fast. The short barrels are more about maneuverability and concealment than spread. AT ten feet you'd have still had a pretty tight shot pattern.

If you think Birdshot will get you out of a violent encounter more power to ya but I think this article speak much differently.

MrExel17
07-26-2011, 2:40 PM
If you want to piss-off an intruder then "Yes" to birdshot, but if you want to protect you and your fam 00-Buck.

urethra.franklin
07-26-2011, 6:01 PM
guys...(and girls)...

has anyone noticed that the photo of the gentleman shot with birdshot is the VICTIM of the crime and not the perpetrator the crime?

men shot him in his doorway trying to kill him and now he has to live with the shot embedded in his organs...kinda sad if you ask me.



"In December 2007, two men brandishing sawn-off shotguns opened fire on Mr Clarke when he answered the door of his home in Fairways, Consett, County Durham.
The steel or lead pellets entered his back, head and neck. He still managed to flee and only escaped possible death when a neighbour pulled him to safety inside their own home.
Eight months after the attack, which is alleged to have stemmed from a row with his former girlfriend, five men were charged with conspiring to murder him"

Joe Clarke, 33, survived the terrifying doorstep attack, but doctors could not remove any of the pellets because some had penetrated his vital organs.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2008078/Peppered-150-shotgun-pellets-Victim-survives-doctors-warn-die-25-years-earlier-remove-them.html#ixzz1TGcMtW00


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2008078/Peppered-150-shotgun-pellets-Victim-survives-doctors-warn-die-25-years-earlier-remove-them.html#ixzz1TGbP9nL5

2nd Shot
07-27-2011, 6:35 PM
Let me start out by saying that I keep my personal 870 topped off with full power, copper plated, buffered 00 buckshot. We know it works. I also know from personal experience that it's going to go right through at least 1 standard interior wall like it isn't even there, so don't miss!

That said, if one were caught with their pants down, and ALL you had were a fist full of bulk birdshot shells, it would definitely beat an empty gun. IMHO, closer is better with birdshot, due to how rapidly tiny birdshot pellets spread out and decelerate. If you could hit the BG while the shot was still in the shot cup, that would probably result in the most penetration. If you're talking more than 10 feet, pull a Cheney (shoot them in the face) then run for it!

If you've ever shot something made of sheet metal with birdshot, you probably found that at very close range, you could blow one ragged hole through average thickness sheet metal, though if you step backt a bit, the same shell would do little more than chip the paint off and make little dimples - speaking of, the victim in the picture looks like he took the hit some distance away, judging by the pattern on his back (human patterning board is not a good idea).

Anyways, if you're going to keep a shotgun for self defense, you might as well load it with the good stuff and forget about it.

resident-shooter
07-27-2011, 7:34 PM
Birdshot is good if u get attacked by birds :D

scobun
07-27-2011, 7:54 PM
This has been covered many times. Birdshot does not act the same as buckshot. That isn't how physics works. It isn't like a fist of lead. It is like a 1.2grain projectile going at ~1300 fps and penetrates as such. It does not penetrate adequately at anything more than a few yards. That is unacceptable for HD unless you live in a home that is a 10x10 shack.

It is also absurd to retort that "well since it isn't a good choice, then obviously you won't mind getting shot with it." I think we'd all agree a frying pan is a stupid choice for HD, but nobody is going to line up to get hit in the face with that.

Buckshot for people, and birdshot if you have some kind of phobia created by Hitchcock's timeless classic.

http://hitchcock.tv/mov/birds/images/birds.jpg

STAGE 2
07-27-2011, 8:04 PM
Within HD range any shotgun round is going to hit as a close mass. If you shoot a guy at 5 yards it doesn't matter much what you hit him with.

This is simply totally false.

solventnine
07-27-2011, 8:46 PM
5 yards would be 15 feet. The Box O' Truth ran these tests at 12 feet (4 yards). Something to consider... Box O' Truth Shotgun Test (http://theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm)

JagerDog
07-27-2011, 9:04 PM
5 yards would be 15 feet. The Box O' Truth ran these tests at 12 feet (4 yards). Something to consider... Box O' Truth Shotgun Test (http://theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm)

HOPEFULLY that clears it up.

Gramps, you know not of what you speak. My thigh with 100+ #5's with an average 3" penetration fired essentially at muzzle is my witness. That's with no bone involved. Admittedly they "vaporized" a couple inches of flesh in the opposing calf first. Interestingly enough the wound mirrors what tests in gelatin indicate. A devastating shallow wound which is unlikely to reliably reach and effectively damage organs. At minimum, buckshot would've continued on to break heavy bone and likely destroy vs. perforate my femoral artery.

Do not attempt this at home.

zoglog
07-27-2011, 9:12 PM
When I was in an apartment I decided on birdshot to avoid piercing through walls. Now that I have a house, 3" 00 buck :D and rifled HP slugs. Either way not sure why everyone is so harsh on birdshot, it's better than nothing. Plus it'll shock em enough to jab em a few times with a breaching choke :D

Call me odd, I never keep my guns loaded in the house ever. Only in the side saddle or in the magazines.....

JagerDog
07-28-2011, 9:51 AM
Dang! You win. As far as penetrating power the heavier load wins.

Not to say that 95% (?) of BG's wouldn't stop in their tracks. It's the other 5% (drugs, heavy clothing, otherwise "determined"). I like the odds better with the loads which have been tested by various entities to provide ample penetration. That's #1 Buck and up from everything I've researched.

MyOdessa
07-28-2011, 1:32 PM
5 yards would be 15 feet. The Box O' Truth ran these tests at 12 feet (4 yards). Something to consider... Box O' Truth Shotgun Test (http://theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm)

This link answers the OP question, better then 3 previous pages.

I would add one thing, if you have thought of defending your home with weapons, you should get to know good criminal defense attorney. If you ever defend yourself with firearm, depending on the county of your residence, you will be questioned extensively by police and may end up in trial.

JagerDog
07-28-2011, 6:03 PM
This link answers the OP question, better then 3 previous pages.

I would add one thing, if you have thought of defending your home with weapons, you should get to know good criminal defense attorney. If you ever defend yourself with firearm, depending on the county of your residence, you will be questioned extensively by police and may end up in trial.

Or...you could disarm yourself and get to know a good undertaker.

The rules of engagement are pretty clear. Follow them.

MyOdessa
07-28-2011, 8:36 PM
Or...you could disarm yourself and get to know a good undertaker.

The rules of engagement are pretty clear. Follow them.


Not well acquainted with California's political climate and criminal justice, aren't you?

JagerDog
07-28-2011, 8:45 PM
Not well acquainted with California's political climate and criminal justice, aren't you?

FUD.

Thefeeder
07-28-2011, 8:51 PM
Would someone please define "birdshot"?

scobun
07-28-2011, 9:15 PM
Would someone please define "birdshot"?

I think the general definition is BB or smaller.

Thefeeder
07-28-2011, 10:03 PM
I'll submitt this question.

For the purpose of this never ending debate,
is "birdshot" include 1 1/4oz BB 3 3/4 dram loads @ 7 yards or, is "birdshot" refering to Walmart 1oz 7 1/2 3dram which is a very light load.

Mighty J ho
07-28-2011, 10:07 PM
first 2 shots 00 buck then followed by slugs after

plumbum
07-28-2011, 10:23 PM
I still don't understand the practice of 'stacking-the-deck' with alternating loads in a magazine, but it's your castle, and I support your decision!

"Birdshot" means anything from the Winchester AA training loads to the 3 1/2" BB Goose loads that replicate WWII anti-aircraft artillery - velocity and volume of shot have no meaning in shotguns, only the caliber of pellets!

Off the Grid
07-28-2011, 10:45 PM
I still don't understand the practice of 'stacking-the-deck' with alternating loads in a magazine, but it's your castle, and I support your decision!

"Birdshot" means anything from the Winchester AA training loads to the 3 1/2" BB Goose loads that replicate WWII anti-aircraft artillery - velocity and volume of shot have no meaning in shotguns, only the caliber of pellets!

In NY where I moved from 4 months ago I was told there is a law that you CANNOT fire on an intruder with a slug first. So I loaded with alternating buckshot/slug.

Sold that sweet tactical 870 when we moved..:(..I dumped a ****-ton of $$ into. (18" barrel, pistol grip, picatinny rail system with surefire light and Red dot sight...could bulls-eye at 75' with that sight.)

However just picked up another 870 off Gunsamerica...comes out of the box with 18" barrel and extended mag...for 315!!!

Still running alternating Winchester Marshall 00 buck and Super X slugs...any reason why this is bad?


Oh yeah....1st post. What's up, folks. ;)

Dhena81
07-29-2011, 1:39 AM
1. Get everyone together if you can stay put and be as quite as you can lock the room doors
2. Call the police
3. Identify and shoot the perp with buckshot only there's really no question about that I can't believe anyone would want to use something else in a shotgun.
4. Don't talk to the police if your worried about prosecution and ask for your lawyer before being questioned. You could even record all your conversation/questions when the police arrive say you were afraid for your or families life that's it.


If someone goes through your locked room door its not going to be a friendly :D


The box of truth is a box of truth for its setup it doesn't accurately represent a household. I actually own furniture too so that's another barrier I wish I had the link (but I don't) to a better representation of a mock household that tested various common cartridges for over penetration.


Basically the best of the best believe it or not was a 55 grain FMJ lead .223 bullet it went through one wall and fragmented (because of it's inherit high velocity) and did limited damage to the second wall without penetrating it. Now you have to be sure your .223/5.56 cartridge has the right bullet I'm not talking about all .223/5.56 cartridges/bullets NOT M855, bonded bullets like federal fusion, ect.


There are so many variables you cannot take everything you've heard or hear as reliable information there are so many different outcomes and variables even in the most controlled environments/tests. There is a lot of extremely outdated information only since the internet has there been such a wealth and exchange of ideas theories and information that some of these things have just started been put to the test. Never before has the average joe had such access to things industry professionals think about and test at the same time have tons of access to FUD.

:rant:

MossbergMan
07-29-2011, 3:22 PM
Within HD range any shotgun round is going to hit as a close mass. If you shoot a guy at 5 yards it doesn't matter much what you hit him with. There's going to be a big nasty hole.

I have a bunch of range/game shells. 100's of 'em. If you buy factory made buckshot you're going to pay $1+ per round. I have experimented with making my own for much less. I took a game load with #8 shot and carefully opened up the crimp and dumped out the shot. WalMart sells steel slingshot ammo pretty cheap. Two sizes. With the smaller size, you can get 23 steel pellets back in the hull and recrimp it. A little bit of work but still cheaper. And who doesn't like to play with stuff that goes bang?! The steel load is lighter(I've weighed it but don't have my notes handy) so there is no issue with powder charge vs. projectile weight.

If you handload self defense rounds...you are an ID-ten-t. First issue: Reliablility. Second issue: Liability (criminal and civil) "Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, factory ammunition didn't kill efficiently enough for Mr. Grampz. He went to his (fill in the location) and made killer, ripper shells that woulld kill a Cape Buffalo at fifty yards with just one shot in the tail". "Police type ammo wasn't good enough for the defendant...he had to make death on a stick shells"
And finally, the crime lab will not be able to duplicate your ballistics so distance from target will be inaccurate...kinda important in these self defense shootings. Home invasions are a little easier on the homeowner/dweller than a shooting that occurs outside the home, but handloaded ammo for SD is foolish. If you can't afford $1 per shell for factory buckshot, then don't use a scattergun. To me it's $10 of cheap life insurance.

In Grampz defense, if the handloaded shells are just for practicing/target shooting....party on. Unique solution to the high cost of practicing with buckshot. Of course I don't think S&B buck is anywhere close to $1 per round.

hossb7
07-29-2011, 8:49 PM
why use a type of ammunition made for birds?

who seriously thinks that is even a remotely good idea?

Posted this on page 1, no answer yet.

zoglog
07-29-2011, 10:20 PM
I'm sure it's ok but you never know.
Can you alternate 3" and 2 3/4" Shells in the tube?

advocatusdiaboli
07-30-2011, 4:45 PM
Posted this on page 1, no answer yet.

Okay, not sure what you haven't heard already that wasn't clear enough but one more try.

I don't think it's a defensible idea if you have a choice. Sure it can be lethal and certainly sometimes disabling—if you are being attacked by Quail, Crows or Waterfowl like in Hitchcock's The Birds it's very likely to be. But a human attacker? The odds or success diminish significantly. You could probably take down a charging Rhino with a .22LR and bird shot if you hit it just right but would you sanely want to try the risk? You would very likely not survive to relate the tale.

If you goal is to eliminate/neutralize all human threats as expeditiously as possible, then use appropriate force. Period. If your goal is to take a human threat down and you want to with the highest probability of success in the shortest time, then bird shot is a low probability path that increases your risk of failure materially.

#0 or #00 is what you need to use. Some evidence suggests #0 is as lethal as #00 and gives you more chance of hits per round fired because of the extra shot that is in each round. That's how I roll in a Benelli SuperNova Tach Pump with a tube extension to 7 rounds plus my pistol.

Would I use my #8 skeet loads in my O&U if I had no other choice. Of course. I'd use a shovel if I had to. But I'd expect I might die in the attempt. I try to plan better, a lot better, and so should you.

Bucc
08-05-2011, 12:51 PM
guys...(and girls)...

has anyone noticed that the photo of the gentleman shot with birdshot is the VICTIM of the crime and not the perpetrator the crime?



Welcome to Calguns.
What's your point?


FUD.

Thank you.
Here in the peoples republic we are told we have a duty to retreat. However, that is unconstitutional. Not that a wordy document written in a form of English some have been successfully perverting for generations matters. In my case my statement to the jury would go something like this:
I have a Lumbo-sacro segmental dysfunction and Lumbalgia. I am physically unable to flee. I can barely walk half the time. I had the defend myself while cornered in my home.

AAShooter
08-06-2011, 7:18 AM
. . . Here in the peoples republic we are told we have a duty to retreat. . .

Where is that legislated?

Bucc
08-06-2011, 3:04 PM
Actually it isn't; I was being flippant. That said I wouldn't like to have anyone at the CADOJ or in most counties DAs offices being the ones who decide what is "reasonable" after the fact. I base this on having spent three years on probation for possession of a deadly weapon( a damn nice Officers ACP I never saw again) in public having been on private property and no one attached to that property disapproved of my being armed.
So, yeah based on my experience, people got to jail(or get beat to death) for all kinds things that aren't illegal here.