PDA

View Full Version : NFA ???s


kLewis
06-24-2011, 7:13 PM
Didn't want to derail another thread, so started my own. :)

What exactly are the guidelines in Cali for NFA items? Specifically, SBRs? I imagine it's "complicated", 'prolly involves CADOJ and gratuitous acts, etc. so a simple point in a direction so I can read up would be fine. Thanks!

Also, how does building an AR pistol interact with the roster? I see the flow charts, and have read them, but am still unclear on this.

Cokebottle
06-24-2011, 7:58 PM
SBR/SBS ain't gonna happen.
You are required to obtain a California "Dangerous Weapons Permit" before the BATFE will grant you the NFA stamp.

You will not get the DWP.

AR pistol is a completely different animal.
Roster exemption is as follows:

Dimensionally-compliant single shot (works for any handgun).

Minimum barrel length 6"
Minimum OAL 10.5"
Single shot

Okay, the first two are easy enough.
Single shot is accomplished by inserting a zero-round sled in place of the magazine, locked in place with the bullet button.

Once the gun becomes functional in the above configuration, you may then remove the sled and replace it with a magazine capable of feeding no more than 10 rounds.

kLewis
06-24-2011, 8:01 PM
[QUOTE=Cokebottle;6655265]SBR/SBS ain't gonna happen.
...
AR pistol is a completely different animal.
.../QUOTE]


Got it, and very clear. Thank you very much! :)

Quiet
06-24-2011, 8:04 PM
In order to get a Dangerous Weapons Permit, you need a "good cause".

Under CA law [PC 12095(b)], there are only two acceptable "good cause" for a Dangerous Weapons Permit for a SBR/SBS.



Penal Code 12095
(a) If it finds that it does not endanger the public safety, the Department of Justice may issue permits initially valid for a period of one year, and renewable annually thereafter, for the manufacture, possession, transportation, or sale of short-barreled shotguns or short-barreled rifles upon a showing that good cause exists for the issuance thereof to the applicant for the permit. No permit shall be issued to a person who is under 18 years of age.
(b) Good cause, for the purposes of this section, shall be limited to only the following:
(1) The permit is sought for the manufacture, possession, or use with blank cartridges, of a short-barreled rifle or short-barreled shotgun, solely as props for a motion picture, television, or video production or entertainment event.
(2) The permit is sought for the manufacture of, exposing for sale, keeping for sale, sale of, importation or lending of short-barreled rifles or short-barreled shotguns to the entities listed in paragraph (1) of subdivision (b) of Section 12020 by persons who are licensed as dealers or manufacturers under the provisions of Chapter 53 (commencing with Section 5801) of Title 26 of the United States Code, as amended, and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.

TangoCharlie
06-24-2011, 9:16 PM
In order to get a Dangerous Weapons Permit, you need a "good cause".

Under CA law [PC 12095(b)], there are only two acceptable "good cause" for a Dangerous Weapons Permit for a SBR/SBS.



Penal Code 12095
(a) If it finds that it does not endanger the public safety, the Department of Justice may issue permits initially valid for a period of one year, and renewable annually thereafter, for the manufacture, possession, transportation, or sale of short-barreled shotguns or short-barreled rifles upon a showing that good cause exists for the issuance thereof to the applicant for the permit. No permit shall be issued to a person who is under 18 years of age.
(b) Good cause, for the purposes of this section, shall be limited to only the following:
(1) The permit is sought for the manufacture, possession, or use with blank cartridges, of a short-barreled rifle or short-barreled shotgun, solely as props for a motion picture, television, or video production or entertainment event.
(2) The permit is sought for the manufacture of, exposing for sale, keeping for sale, sale of, importation or lending of short-barreled rifles or short-barreled shotguns to the entities listed in paragraph (1) of subdivision (b) of Section 12020 by persons who are licensed as dealers or manufacturers under the provisions of Chapter 53 (commencing with Section 5801) of Title 26 of the United States Code, as amended, and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.

You do not need a DOJ Dangerous Weapons Permit for any AOW (except pen guns) nor for C&R SBR/SBS. They are perfectly legal and NFA Branch will readily approve a Form 4 or Form 1 for such a firearm in or into CA.

C&R Remington 870s are more or less identical to modern ones. I picked up a 1958 870, which is C&R, and my Form 1 is on its way to NFA Branch.

hit-man
06-25-2011, 8:40 AM
How about for a RAW AR?

EBR Works
06-25-2011, 8:52 AM
As an individual in California about all you can possess in the way of modern NFA items is an AOW.

For modern SBR/SBS/FA, jumping through the DOJ hoops for a Dangerous Weapon Permit is big money initially and at annual inspection time plus the permits are discretionary issue. You need a very good cause to get a DW permit. Their storage and transport requirements are very strict as well.

For those that are interested, we'll be offering AOWs similar to these to CalGunners starting July 1st and setting up a trust to hold them in California will be very affordable:

http://www.kingdomarms.com/store/images/_products/Serbu-Super_Shorty_870.jpg
http://www.ocarmory.com/IMG_4466.JPG

kLewis
06-25-2011, 10:56 AM
Oh! Saiga AOW! Shiny! :)

straykiller
06-25-2011, 12:05 PM
Oh! Saiga AOW! Shiny! :)

You can get an AOW saiga shotgun???

EBR Works
06-25-2011, 1:33 PM
You can get an AOW saiga shotgun???


Yep, pm or email me for info.

vandal
06-25-2011, 3:27 PM
Saiga 12 AOW. Now that makes some sense.

Cokebottle
06-25-2011, 3:38 PM
How about for a RAW AR?
Negative.
Completely different statute.
Unless you owned one prior to the ban and registered it during the open window (1990, and 2000), or are a LEO, you are SOL.
Can't transfer one, can't build one, heck... can't even possess one outside of the direct presence of the registered owner.

Inquirer
06-25-2011, 7:27 PM
Would you be allowed to toss a PG on that Saiga without a BB? *crosses fingers*

MrPlink
06-25-2011, 7:36 PM
Would you be allowed to toss a PG on that Saiga without a BB? *crosses fingers*

thats what I wanna know about AOWs, take an AR pistol for example, if I make it a AOW, well its no longer pistol, so does AW law still apply?

EBR Works
06-25-2011, 7:37 PM
Would you be allowed to toss a PG on that Saiga without a BB? *crosses fingers*

Without an AW permit, nope.

ke6guj
06-25-2011, 7:39 PM
Would you be allowed to toss a PG on that Saiga without a BB? *crosses fingers*

nope, its considered a pistol and have to have a mag-lock and a <11-round mag, whether or not it has a VFG on it.

ke6guj
06-25-2011, 7:40 PM
thats what I wanna know about AOWs, take an AR pistol for example, if I make it a AOW, well its no longer pistol, so does AW law still apply?

CA law still considers it to be a pistol.

12001. (a)(1) As used in this title, the terms "pistol," "revolver," and "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person" shall apply to and include any device designed to be used as a weapon, from which is expelled a projectile by the force of any explosion, or other form of combustion, and that has a barrel less than 16 inches in length. These terms also include any device that has a barrel 16 inches or more in length which is designed to be interchanged with a barrel less than 16 inches in length.
(2) As used in this title, the term "handgun" means any "pistol," "revolver," or "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person."there is no AOW exemption to the AW regs.

Inquirer
06-25-2011, 8:55 PM
Wait, but I thought the second you put a V Foregrip on a pistol it became an AOW and had to be registered as such. So despite it now being viewed by the feds as an AOW, it's still viewed by California as a pistol and as such can't be equipped with a VFG?

And as for the bullet button - that Saiga pistol would need a bullet button even though it's a pistol in its current form? What predicates that?

Thanks.

ke6guj
06-25-2011, 8:59 PM
Wait, but I thought the second you put a V Foregrip on a pistol it became an AOW and had to be registered as such. So despite it now being viewed by the feds as an AOW, it's still viewed by California as a pistol and as such can't be equipped with a VFG? right, it is considered to be an AOW by the feds, but is still a pistol in CA. CA law says that a semi-auto pistol with a detachable magazine and a VFG is an AW. So, put a mag-lock on it and you can have your VFG on it without violating CA law.

And as for the bullet button - that Saiga pistol would need a bullet button even though it's a pistol in its current form? What predicates that?

Thanks.

because it a semi-auto pistol that has a detachable magazine outside the pistol grip. that makes it an AW until you put the mag-lock on it.

It is all covered in the handgun AW flowchart.

Inquirer
06-25-2011, 9:03 PM
Gotcha, thanks for the clarification. Haven't browsed the HG forums much.

Cokebottle
06-25-2011, 9:03 PM
So it seems that the only thing that AOW "negates" is "shotgun"...

IE, the above is not an SBS because it is an AOW.
How does that work, or is it simply because the VFG renders it such?

NFA is more confusing than AW!

ke6guj
06-25-2011, 9:15 PM
So it seems that the only thing that AOW "negates" is "shotgun"...

IE, the above is not an SBS because it is an AOW.
How does that work, or is it simply because the VFG renders it such?

NFA is more confusing than AW!

ok, lets start federally.

those firearms pictured above are not shotguns because they NEVER had a shoulder stock attached to them. because of that, they never became shotguns (as defined by the feds). Since they have barrels <16" they are considered pistols. if they had rifled barrels, they would be considered destructive devices (bore over .50"), but because they aren't rifled, they are considered smooth-bore pistols, which falls under the definition of AOW. got it?

Federal law says that before it can become an SBS, it must first be a shotgun. since itwas never a shotgun, it can't be an SBS.

The fact that the super shorty has a VFG on it does not matter at all, it is already an AOW due to the smooth-bore.


So, now we look at CA law. CA says that it is an SBS because it is a firearm that shoots a fixed shotgun shell and has a barrel <18", period. it doesn't have to first be a shotgun in CA to be a CA-defined SBS. So, those firearms pictured above are SBS's in CA, period. However, CA law says that a properly-possessed AOW (as defined by the feds), is exempt from CA's SBS law. So, those firearms are legal SBS's in CA. However, you still have to comply with the AW regs, since there is no AOW exemption for AWs. So, that is why the SAiga 12 AOW still has to have the mag-lock, and a <11-round mag (and even has to be initially transfered as a single-shot exempt pistol to comply with the roster).

The VFG on the Super shorty doesn't matter since it isn't a semi-auto pistol. You could put a VFG on the S-12 AOW since it already has a mag-lock in CA.

Cokebottle
06-25-2011, 9:31 PM
ok, lets start federally.

those firearms pictured above are not shotguns because they NEVER had a shoulder stock attached to them. because of that, they never became shotguns (as defined by the feds). Since they have barrels <16" they are considered pistols. if they had rifled barrels, they would be considered destructive devices (bore over .50"), but because they aren't rifled, they are considered smooth-bore pistols, which falls under the definition of AOW. got it?
Makes sense.

Now, about a year ago, the BATFE clarified that for a receiver to be defined as a "rifle" it must have BOTH a shoulder stock and a barrel =>16"
So given that the same applies to shotguns, would not a "Cruiser" style shotgun (never had a shoulder stock) be qualified for conversion to AOW... or do we run into the same problem that we have with stripped lowers in that the mere act of DROSing as "Long gun" defines it as "shotgun"?

ke6guj
06-25-2011, 9:39 PM
Makes sense.

Now, about a year ago, the BATFE clarified that for a receiver to be defined as a "rifle" it must have BOTH a shoulder stock and a barrel =>16"
So given that the same applies to shotguns, would not a "Cruiser" style shotgun (never had a shoulder stock) be qualified for conversion to AOW... or do we run into the same problem that we have with stripped lowers in that the mere act of DROSing as "Long gun" defines it as "shotgun"?That is exactly where those Super Shorty AOWs come from, from PG-only "Cruisers" that Serbu gets from Mossberg and Remington.

AOWs made on other designs, like the Saiga-12, are harder since there aren't any factory "cruisers" offered. So, buys like Cadiz Gun Works have to demil a new S-12, make a new receiver from scratch and then assemle their own AOWs from those virgin receivers that have never had a shoulder stock attached.

Inquirer
06-25-2011, 9:54 PM
Federal law says that before it can become an SBS, it must first be a shotgun. since itwas never a shotgun, it can't be an SBS.
...
So, that is why the SAiga 12 AOW still has to have the mag-lock, and a <11-round mag (and even has to be initially transfered as a single-shot exempt pistol to comply with the roster).

The VFG on the Super shorty doesn't matter since it isn't a semi-auto pistol. You could put a VFG on the S-12 AOW since it already has a mag-lock in CA.

Wait, doesn't that Saiga start life as a normal Saiga 12, that is then cut down, fitted with a muzzle brake, pistol grip, rail, etc.?

I'm assuming that the end user, i.e., us, is the one who's unable to perform that conversion, but a type 07 FFL can. We can then purchase it as a smooth-barrel pistol, which is an AOW and needs a mag-lock.

Cheers,

--Inq

ke6guj
06-25-2011, 9:59 PM
Wait, doesn't that Saiga start life as a normal Saiga 12, that is then cut down, fitted with a muzzle brake, pistol grip, rail, etc.? no, that S-12 is physically cut up and the receiver is discarded. An entire new receiver is manufactured and the parts from the old shotgun are installed onto the new receiver, with a pistol trunnion installed instead of the original trunnion. It is considered a new gun, it isn't a shotgun because that receiver never had a shoulder stock attached.

I'm assuming that the end user, i.e., us, is the one who's unable to perform that conversion, but a type 07 FFL can. We can then purchase it as a smooth-barrel pistol, which is an AOW and needs a mag-lock.

Cheers,

--Inq
if you have the abiltiy to make your own S-12 receiver, you could build your own S-12 AOW, you wouldn't have to rely on an 07FFL/02SOT to do it for you.

wilit
06-25-2011, 10:04 PM
C&R Remington 870s are more or less identical to modern ones. I picked up a 1958 870, which is C&R, and my Form 1 is on its way to NFA Branch.

I didn't think the ATF was approving Form 1's on C&R's anymore. I thought they decided altering the gun from it's original design negated its C&R status.

Cokebottle
06-25-2011, 10:06 PM
I didn't think the ATF was approving Form 1's on C&R's anymore. I thought they decided altering the gun from it's original design negated its C&R status.
Correct... but there are SBR/SBS that are legitimately over 50 years old.

One would be the "broomhandle" Mauser convertibles... buttstock is detachable and it leaves a "pirate style" pistol grip.

ke6guj
06-25-2011, 10:09 PM
One would be the "broomhandle" Mauser convertibles... buttstock is detachable and it leaves a "pirate style" pistol grip.

but the AW laws still apply to C&R SBRs, both the pistol and rifle AW regs, which makes them almost useless.

Cokebottle
06-25-2011, 10:14 PM
but the AW laws still apply to C&R SBRs, both the pistol and rifle AW regs, which makes them almost useless.
For semi-auto, but bolt action we're not unlike free states on C&Rs.

santacruzstefan
06-25-2011, 10:27 PM
So for clarification, when ARs/ AKs hit C&R status (some already have, I'm guessing) we could or could not turn them into SBRs?

wilit
06-26-2011, 10:55 AM
Correct... but there are SBR/SBS that are legitimately over 50 years old.



Yes, but to transfer a C&R SBR/SBS, that would be a Form 4. A Form 1 is for manufacturing an NFA item. What TangoCharlie was looking to do was create an SBS from a C&R on a Form 1, which I do not believe the ATF is approving.

Cokebottle
06-26-2011, 12:00 PM
Yes, but to transfer a C&R SBR/SBS, that would be a Form 4. A Form 1 is for manufacturing an NFA item. What TangoCharlie was looking to do was create an SBS from a C&R on a Form 1, which I do not believe the ATF is approving.
Correct.