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View Full Version : Thinking about making my AR featureless...


Damiiaaannn
06-24-2011, 12:34 AM
So, I'm thinking about making one of my ARs featureless. Right now it is just a basic M4 style AR. So I want to add an A2 stock then one of those kydex sleeves, and take off the flash hider. My only question is how does it feel it shoot with those sleeves on? Thanks.

hellraiser
06-24-2011, 12:43 AM
I don't own a featureless AR but have had the chance to shoot one. Honestly it's not that bad. It takes a small amount of getting used to. After a while you forget about it. Try griping your AR now without putting your thumb around it.

MrPlink
06-24-2011, 1:33 AM
I don't own a featureless AR but have had the chance to shoot one. Honestly it's not that bad. It takes a small amount of getting used to. After a while you forget about it. Try griping your AR now without putting your thumb around it.

this

derteufel
06-24-2011, 4:40 AM
I made my AR featureless recently. Malfunction drills with a bullet button are a PITA, so I bought a hammerhead grip, pinned a collapsible stock, and put my mag release back on. I can honestly say that I prefer shooting it in this configuration. It feels right!

chead
06-24-2011, 4:47 AM
My AK isn't featureless anymore, but I like it when it is.

Exile Machine
06-24-2011, 6:49 AM
So I want to add an A2 stock then one of those kydex sleeves, and take off the flash hider.

Cheaper to pin the carbine stock, remove the flash hider, and bolt on a Hammerhead grip --$24.99 delivered. (https://www.exilemachine.net/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=52&products_id=1). We have some of our lightly blemished Factory Seconds on special now for $8.99 delivered (https://www.exilemachine.net/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=52&products_id=285).

http://www.exilemachine.com/images/customer_photos/CP012.JPG

Try gripping your AR now without putting your thumb around it.

Or try gripping it with your thumb around it. Sort of how you'd hold a wooden rifle.

http://exilemachine.com/images/IMG_7138.JPG

http://exilemachine.com/images/IMG_7465.JPG

msand951
06-24-2011, 7:03 AM
I went featureless on my wasr and Ar using MMG . Never looked back, feels weird at first but not bad . I just ordered 2 hammerhead grips they look more like a normal rifle grip so im going that route and they are cheaper.:)
I like the first setup pictured above, stock on the receiver extension with grip by itself.
Im going to try to add a hammer head to my wasr.:D

PEBKAC
06-24-2011, 7:09 AM
I have an MMG AR while I wait for the lower I actually want to use, and honestly it's a bit awkward but not really that bad at all. The one thing that is nice (besides the obvious mag dropping, preban hicap use benefits) is you don't have to worry about the gapoosa left by the standard trigger guard...the way you grip it completely avoids it from what I can tell. Definitely want an ambi safety though...if you don't want to be giving the gun the reach-around every time you put it on safe that is a must.

vintagearms
06-24-2011, 7:13 AM
Cheaper to pin the carbine stock, remove the flash hider, and bolt on a Hammerhead grip --$24.99 delivered. (https://www.exilemachine.net/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=52&products_id=1). We have some of our lightly blemished Factory Seconds on special now for $8.99 delivered (https://www.exilemachine.net/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=52&products_id=285).

http://www.exilemachine.com/images/customer_photos/CP012.JPG



Or try gripping it with your thumb around it. Sort of how you'd hold a wooden rifle.

http://exilemachine.com/images/IMG_7138.JPG

http://exilemachine.com/images/IMG_7465.JPG


Just ordered one. Thanx. :)

Exile Machine
06-24-2011, 7:22 AM
Im going to try to add a hammer head to my wasr.:D

It's not pretty but it can be done...
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=361628
http://www.exilemachine.com/images/IMG_0145_640.JPG

BANG BANG
06-24-2011, 7:25 AM
glad you "pulled" the trigger and went featureless !!


here's mine recently converted: still needs an ambi safety

http://i842.photobucket.com/albums/zz345/Vlim9/Gun%20stuff/photo-6.jpg

Javi
06-24-2011, 7:26 AM
That AK doesn't look too bad at all :)
And I must have gotten used to other grips because I had forgotten you could actually grip the Hammerhead, thought you had to rest your fingers all on one side.

PEBKAC
06-24-2011, 7:30 AM
glad you "pulled" the trigger and went featureless !!


here's mine recently converted: still needs an ambi safety
Might uh, want to do something about that muzzle device...it is an FSC(Flash Suppressing Compensator)556 no?

BANG BANG
06-24-2011, 8:08 AM
Might uh, want to do something about that muzzle device...it is an FSC(Flash Suppressing Compensator)556 no?

I'm still debating this, it seems to me that it's a gray area.

BATFE says the PWS comp is not a flash hider, they have a downloadable letter on their website

The exit size is a like any other comp (small diameter) not like a flash hider
with a huge exit hole

I have the flowchart and the pictures are clear distinguishing between the two

It is advertised as a compensator albeit (with the small ability to hide flash)

UserM4
06-24-2011, 8:49 AM
I have an MMG on one AR and I hate it because it's hard to keep a hold of during mag swaps and stuff. So I got a kydex wrap on another and it's much better. Then I stippled the heck out of it and now it's perfect.

Also, don't forget the ambi selector switch.

Fate
06-24-2011, 8:57 AM
I'm still debating this, it seems to me that it's a gray area.

BATFE says the PWS comp is not a flash hider, they have a downloadable letter on their website

The exit size is a like any other comp (small diameter) not like a flash hider
with a huge exit hole

I have the flowchart and the pictures are clear distinguishing between the two

It is advertised as a compensator albeit (with the small ability to hide flash)
PWS themselves advertise it as perceptibly reducing flash. As such, it's a lot less grey than you seem to think. Even the name FLASH SUPPRESSING COMPENSATOR points to the fact that due to case law and DOJ testimony by Iggy Chin, that the FSC is likely to be a flash suppressor.

http://primaryweapons.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=9&idcategory=6

The BATFE ruling means nothing and is overridden by CA law.

PEBKAC
06-24-2011, 9:08 AM
I'm still debating this, it seems to me that it's a gray area.

BATFE says the PWS comp is not a flash hider, they have a downloadable letter on their website

The exit size is a like any other comp (small diameter) not like a flash hider
with a huge exit hole

I have the flowchart and the pictures are clear distinguishing between the two

It is advertised as a compensator albeit (with the small ability to hide flash)
Guidelines tend to be "if it's marketed as a flash suppressor, stay away", being as lots of things can suppress or reduce flash, even if they were never designed to. But if it is marketed as such, that's pretty black and white.

It is named the "flash suppressing compensator"...personally I'd stay away, given the "flash suppressing" bit.

IANAL, YMMV, etc.

BANG BANG
06-24-2011, 9:23 AM
PWS themselves advertise it as perceptibly reducing flash. As such, it's a lot less grey than you seem to think. Even the name FLASH SUPPRESSING COMPENSATOR points to the fact that due to case law and DOJ testimony by Iggy Chin, that the FSC is likely to be a flash suppressor.

http://primaryweapons.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=9&idcategory=6

The BATFE ruling means nothing and is overridden by CA law.

Guidelines tend to be "if it's marketed as a flash suppressor, stay away", being as lots of things can suppress or reduce flash, even if they were never designed to. But if it is marketed as such, that's pretty black and white.

It is named the "flash suppressing compensator"...personally I'd stay away, given the "flash suppressing" bit.

IANAL, YMMV, etc.

hmmm I see your guys points, I guess it's better to be safe than sorry

OP sorry to take your thread off course

barbasol
06-24-2011, 11:04 AM
I converted mine and its wonderful to drop free normal capacity mags without a tool. In my opinion none of the grips are as comfortable as a pistol grip though and I have converted back. I prefer the pistol grip over the normal capacity mags and no bullet button since I am not at war or running an competitions. That is a question only you can answer for yourself.

http://i879.photobucket.com/albums/ab354/barbs401/870ce4fa.jpg

msand951
06-24-2011, 11:09 AM
I carry a binder with the OLL flow chart and some receipts of some parts like for muzzle brake I have on my Mini . A LEO was examining it and couldnt make up his mind, he didnt say anything but I politely told him it was a brake and I have the receipt of purchase which states it. He didnt bother with me anymore.:)

msand951
06-24-2011, 11:14 AM
I converted mine and its wonderful to drop free normal capacity mags without a tool. In my opinion none of the grips are as comfortable as a pistol grip though and I have converted back. I prefer the pistol grip over the normal capacity mags and no bullet button since I am not at war or running an competitions. That is a question only you can answer for yourself.

http://i879.photobucket.com/albums/ab354/barbs401/870ce4fa.jpg

Nice set up. It does get expensive dumping 30 rd mags. Especially with friends shooting your guns. I also think about converting back you will shoot slower and longer. But sometimes you get the urge to:43:.

IPSICK
06-24-2011, 11:15 AM
PWS themselves advertise it as perceptibly reducing flash. As such, it's a lot less grey than you seem to think. Even the name FLASH SUPPRESSING COMPENSATOR points to the fact that due to case law and DOJ testimony by Iggy Chin, that the FSC is likely to be a flash suppressor.

http://primaryweapons.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=9&idcategory=6

The BATFE ruling means nothing and is overridden by CA law.

When did CA define the FSC as a flash suppressor? I get that it is named by the company as such but the BATFE ruling makes this gray area to me.

Btw, I find the Hammerhead perfectly fine for my featureless. However, somebody here has modified a fin sleeve to have a palmshelf, which sounds very interesting.

762.DEFENSE
06-24-2011, 11:25 AM
I went to the featureless route recently, and haven't looked back. Being able to drop my legally acquired standard capacity magazines is a blessing.

Full Clip
06-24-2011, 11:29 AM
Featureless rules...

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-3/981624/ARx39-Carbine-1.gif.jpg

If you go with a MMG, you'll probably stop noticing it after about 100 rounds. Is it a pistol grip? No, but I've used my MMG'ed ARs in several training classes with absolutely no issue.

Will have to take one with my AK at some point...

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-3/981624/AK-47-Target.gif.jpg

BANG BANG
06-24-2011, 12:31 PM
When did CA define the FSC as a flash suppressor? I get that it is named by the company as such but the BATFE ruling makes this gray area to me.

.

good point, so DOJ would have to make the ruling?

IPSICK
06-24-2011, 12:37 PM
good point, so DOJ would have to make the ruling?

I would keep a copy of the BATFE ruling handy.

PEBKAC
06-24-2011, 1:12 PM
good point, so DOJ would have to make the ruling?
To get a definitive ruling on it with regards to California law, it could only come from the DoJ.

The problem is that the DoJ has determined (albeit not officially) that, for better or worse, that they don't have to give us rulings or clarify much of anything outside of court.

If they won't, or can't, tell us then it is up to us to figure it out based on CA law and subsequent case law.

Which is yet another problem as the law as far as feature definition of a flash suppressor is too vague to be useful in most cases (pair of sunglasses held over the end of a muzzle constituted a functional flash suppressor, according to someone in the DoJ iirc), and the only thing left to go on is the "marketed as" bit. Hence something named a "Flash Suppressing Compensator" fits the bill in a rather black or white way, regardless of whether it actually does any useful flash suppressing or not.

Though for many reasons, it would be great if the DoJ contradicted this logic. :43:

glock_this
06-24-2011, 1:23 PM
IMHO

featureless = fugly

IPSICK
06-24-2011, 1:28 PM
To get a definitive ruling on it with regards to California law, it could only come from the DoJ.

The problem is that the DoJ has determined (albeit not officially) that, for better or worse, that they don't have to give us rulings or clarify much of anything outside of court.

If they won't, or can't, tell us then it is up to us to figure it out based on CA law and subsequent case law.

Which is yet another problem as the law as far as feature definition of a flash suppressor is too vague to be useful in most cases (pair of sunglasses held over the end of a muzzle constituted a functional flash suppressor, according to someone in the DoJ iirc), and the only thing left to go on is the "marketed as" bit. Hence something named a "Flash Suppressing Compensator" fits the bill in a rather black or white way, regardless of whether it actually does any useful flash suppressing or not.

Though for many reasons, it would be great if the DoJ contradicted this logic. :43:

But from PWS's own website:

"All of the FSC Series muzzle devices have been classified as a non-flash suppressing device by the BATFE, thus removing any restriction from assault weapon ban states or provinces. See the BATFE document here."

So they are marketing it as flash suppressing but not defining it as a flash suppressor as ruled by BATFE. Are we clear yet? ;)

IMHO

featureless = fugly

featureless = functional

PEBKAC
06-24-2011, 1:59 PM
But from PWS's own website:

"All of the FSC Series muzzle devices have been classified as a non-flash suppressing device by the BATFE, thus removing any restriction from assault weapon ban states or provinces. See the BATFE document here."

So they are marketing it as flash suppressing but not defining it as a flash suppressor as ruled by BATFE. Are we clear yet? ;)
No, no we are not. Because those statements are half correct.

They are correct in that it was classified as a non-flash suppressing device by the ATF...with regards to the now defunct Federal AWB. Which is irrelevant to the myriad state AWBs. Different bodies of law.

They are not correct in the sense that said opinion automatically makes it legal in AWB states, because each of those states has differing case law with regards to their personal AWBs.

CA is one of those states.

At this point the ATF opinion is part of a potential defense, nothing more, nothing less. Would it be persuasive? Possibly. Who knows.

But unlike many things where a legitimate grey area exists, this is called a flash suppressing device. It even has those little prongs on the end that every flash suppressor under the sun has, albeit a bit shorter.

To borrow a phrase Bill likes to use, it "doesn't pass the smell test".

Full Clip
06-24-2011, 2:03 PM
IMHO

featureless = fugly

That's cool.
In my mind, mag locked = retarded
Viva la difference!

IPSICK
06-24-2011, 2:07 PM
Still haven't convinced it's not grey area and I haven't convinced you it is.

I asked are we clear with the ;) smiley because this issue like many other CA AW laws is not clear.

This is an issue not for you or I to decide. Unfortunately, this can only be resolved by a test case to establish case law or fortunately by nullification of the AW laws.

RoundEye
06-24-2011, 2:42 PM
Where do people get the kydex wraps as opposes to replacing the whole grip?

vintagearms
06-24-2011, 2:46 PM
IMHO

featureless = fugly

Function always overrules fashion. :p Unless of course, you are a metrosexual.

BANG BANG
06-24-2011, 3:06 PM
Where do people get the kydex wraps as opposes to replacing the whole grip?

Solar tactical

http://www.solartactical.com/SOLAR-TACTICAL-KYDEX-GRIP-WRAP-FEATURELESS-BUILDS_c19.htm

they are a vendor here too

spdrcr
06-24-2011, 3:14 PM
We have some of our lightly blemished Factory Seconds on special now for $8.99 delivered (https://www.exilemachine.net/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=52&products_id=285).

Can't really say no to that offer. I placed an order for one. Looking forward to giving it a try now.

UserM4
06-24-2011, 3:16 PM
Mag lock = mall ninja
:popcorn:

stix213
06-24-2011, 3:24 PM
My AK (converted saiga x39) is featureless now with a kydex grip wrap wing thing, and you get used to it.

http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/6349/saigarifles005.jpg

I think it makes an even better political statement than anything. I take out new shooters and they ask, "What the hell is that thing?" I respond, "That's the assault weapons ban, that's all it does. Only a ****ing idiot would think the assault weapons ban does anything for safety" (you don't need to really get into the AW law details with a new shooter until they tell you they are going to buy their own)

I just got a hammerhead grip in the mail for my next AR build. Keeping my current AR with the mag lock on. I didn't realize that RRA uppers are custom made per order when I hit submit, so I'm going to have to wait like 3 months :( but hopefully its worth it.

TurboChrisB
06-24-2011, 4:22 PM
But you think a AR sporting a 10 rd mag is the "Look" everyone desires? :confused:




IMHO

featureless = fugly

Fate
06-24-2011, 5:53 PM
Still haven't convinced it's not grey area and I haven't convinced you it is.

I asked are we clear with the ;) smiley because this issue like many other CA AW laws is not clear.

This is an issue not for you or I to decide. Unfortunately, this can only be resolved by a test case to establish case law or fortunately by nullification of the AW laws.
I guess you're volunteering. Have fun!

IPSICK
06-24-2011, 6:02 PM
I guess you're volunteering. Have fun!

Sure volunteering to support CGF and changes via legislation.

Sespe
06-24-2011, 6:58 PM
...
I just got a hammerhead grip in the mail for my next AR build. Keeping my current AR with the mag lock on. I didn't realize that RRA uppers are custom made per order when I hit submit, so I'm going to have to wait like 3 months :( but hopefully its worth it.

Yeah, I wish they would post that somewhere, I cancelled an order with them because of it.

Back on track:

http://www.glausers.org/pics/calguns/stockredone.jpg

Featureless works fine for me!

Foriegn power
06-24-2011, 8:14 PM
hehe just use a magnet I seen it on a post here before.

ArkinDomino
06-24-2011, 8:20 PM
No. Don't use that magnet. Don't take stupid advice either.

Peter W Bush
06-24-2011, 8:34 PM
Cheaper to pin the carbine stock, remove the flash hider, and bolt on a Hammerhead grip --$24.99 delivered. (https://www.exilemachine.net/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=52&products_id=1). We have some of our lightly blemished Factory Seconds on special now for $8.99 delivered (https://www.exilemachine.net/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=52&products_id=285).

http://www.exilemachine.com/images/customer_photos/CP012.JPG



Or try gripping it with your thumb around it. Sort of how you'd hold a wooden rifle.

http://exilemachine.com/images/IMG_7138.JPG

http://exilemachine.com/images/IMG_7465.JPG

You, sir, just cost me $17.98 :43:
I forgot to order the regular magazine button though :mad::mad:

crackerman
06-24-2011, 9:03 PM
You, sir, just cost me $17.98 :43:
I forgot to order the regular magazine button though :mad::mad:

Ehh whatever, your gutsy enough to featureless, PM me your addy and I will send you an extra.

Someone was helpful tome earlier tonight so pass it on.

$P-Ritch$
06-24-2011, 9:13 PM
That's cool.
In my mind, mag locked = retarded
Viva la difference!


This.

I originally thought that featureless was goofy looking and that I would not need it because I don't own any pre-ban high caps. Boy was I wrong, I switched one AR to featureless just to try it out and now all my ARs, except the one I am trying to sell, are featureless. I'll take an awkward grip over that PITA maglock any day of the week. It is especially noticeable if you are trying to train or compete with your rifle via rifle courses or 3-gun matches.

Peter W Bush
06-24-2011, 9:16 PM
Ehh whatever, your gutsy enough to featureless, PM me your addy and I will send you an extra.

Someone was helpful tome earlier tonight so pass it on.


I emailed Exile and asked him to add one to my order. I don't want to take anything that I don't need but thank you very much. I really appreciate it :thumbsup::thumbsup:

1Fastrider
06-24-2011, 9:19 PM
I've got a couple rifles running the hammerhead and while not as great as a pistol grip I do enjoy using all my magazines. Oh and Exile darn you for posting about the blems! Now I have to get extra!

vincewarde
06-24-2011, 10:01 PM
This.

I originally thought that featureless was goofy looking and that I would not need it because I don't own any pre-ban high caps. Boy was I wrong, I switched one AR to featureless just to try it out and now all my ARs, except the one I am trying to sell, are featureless. I'll take an awkward grip over that PITA maglock any day of the week. It is especially noticeable if you are trying to train or compete with your rifle via rifle courses or 3-gun matches.

plus 1 on all of the above!

tvfreakarms
06-25-2011, 12:22 AM
So, wait i'm a little confused here. If you go featureless, you can take off the bullet button correct? But i thought regardless if it's featureless or not you can't have more than 10rds? Or is it for people that only has the pre ban mags.

What do you guys think about the kydex slip on over the pistol grip for the ak and the ar (from solar tactical kind of pricey. And for the AR kydex slip on do you have to have a A2 butt stock or can you have any type of butt stock that will work with the kydex)?

dieselpower
06-25-2011, 8:44 AM
So, wait i'm a little confused here. If you go featureless, you can take off the bullet button correct? But i thought regardless if it's featureless or not you can't have more than 10rds? Or is it for people that only has the pre ban mags.

What do you guys think about the kydex slip on over the pistol grip for the ak and the ar (from solar tactical kind of pricey. And for the AR kydex slip on do you have to have a A2 butt stock or can you have any type of butt stock that will work with the kydex)?

if you owned large capacity magazines before 1/1/2000 OR you legally acquired them after 1/1/2000, you can use them in a featureless rifle.

You can not use a magazine with a capacity greater than 10 with a magazine lock....at that point with 11 or more capacity that rifle is classified as an AW since it has a FIXED magazine with a capacity greater than 10.

$P-Ritch$
06-25-2011, 8:47 AM
So, wait i'm a little confused here. If you go featureless, you can take off the bullet button correct? But i thought regardless if it's featureless or not you can't have more than 10rds? Or is it for people that only has the pre ban mags.

What do you guys think about the kydex slip on over the pistol grip for the ak and the ar (from solar tactical kind of pricey. And for the AR kydex slip on do you have to have a A2 butt stock or can you have any type of butt stock that will work with the kydex)?

There is no law restricting magazine capacity on non-fixed mag, no evil feature rifles. It is only on fixed mag (bullet-buttoned) rifles that the no greater than 10 round limit exists in 12276. However, they must be LEGALLY acquired high capacity mags. I was in 7th grade when the ban went into effect and did not have the foresight to buy a bunch of 30 rounders for my BRD in the coming years.

As for stocks, so long as it is non-collapsible/folding/telescoping you are good to go. You may use an A2 or pin one of your carbine stocks. I went with a kydex wrap and an ACE AR-Ultra Lite from Model 1 Sales and absolutely love it.

Javi
06-25-2011, 8:56 AM
Just curious here: If you have legal normal capacity magazines from pre-ban or legally aquired post bans..what do you do when a forest ranger or police officer confronts you about it? How do you prove those magazines are legal?

$P-Ritch$
06-25-2011, 9:13 AM
IANAL, but you are not required to prove that you are adhering to the law. It is the burden of the police and DA to prove that you are in fact breaking it.

If a forest ranger asked me to prove the mag was legal I would simply say, How? It's not like kept the receipt for a $10 purchase 10+ years back before it was a big deal/unique thing to own high cap mags.

dieselpower
06-25-2011, 9:18 AM
There is no law restricting magazine capacity on non-fixed mag, no evil feature rifles. It is only on fixed mag (bullet-buttoned) rifles that the no greater than 10 round limit exists in 12276. However, they must be LEGALLY acquired high capacity mags. I was in 7th grade when the ban went into effect and did not have the foresight to buy a bunch of 30 rounders for my BRD in the coming years.

As for stocks, so long as it is non-collapsible/folding/telescoping you are good to go. You may use an A2 or pin one of your carbine stocks. I went with a kydex wrap and an ACE AR-Ultra Lite from Model 1 Sales and absolutely love it.

Just curious here: If you have legal normal capacity magazines from pre-ban or legally acquired post bans..what do you do when a forest ranger or police officer confronts you about it? How do you prove those magazines are legal?

2 things...

1) A person born on 1/2/2000 can LEGALLY gain, BUY, own and use large capacity magazines.

2) You do not have to prove ANYTHING... Prove to me your shoes are legal to own? Prove to me your pants are not stolen.

If a LEO asks about your magazines, ask him to prove he didn't steal his shoes. You have just as much a right to question his/her integrity as he/she as the right to question yours. Once the LARGE CAPACITY MAGAZINE is in your possession, its 100% legal. Its in HOW you acquired it, there could be a legal issue. So unless you say, "I manufactured them after 1/1/2000" ... "I imported them after 1/1/2000" ... he has nothing to question you about. Its a non-issue unless YOU STATE OTHERWISE.

Iggy
06-25-2011, 9:48 AM
http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/6349/saigarifles005.jpg


Nice bottle. Armida makes good stuff.

dieselpower
06-25-2011, 9:59 AM
I have another analogy...

Your car runs a Red Light. There is a camera recording the intersection. You are sent a picture of the car running the red light, its 100% your car. The picture of the driver is blurry. Unless you say, "That is me, I committed that crime." They can not charge you with the crime. Unless you say, "That is Joe driving my car." , they can not charge Joe with the crime.

If a LEO walks up to you and asks you, "Is that your magazine." You should actually say something like, "Can I help you sir." and "I don't answer questions without a lawyer present. Are you arresting me for a crime?" He may BS you into talking more, or he may even arrest you. The fact is unless you give him a statement, you can not be charged with a crime.... the is no such crime as [I]possession of a large capacity magazine... its NOT a crime. You can even tell the LEO that... and I have.

what I said to the officer was, "...the law says I can not manufacture or import large capacity magazines after 1/1/2000, so unless you have evidence that I did,...you are just fishing for a statement of guilt that I am not going to give you. I am done talking to you without my lawyer present." He said something like, "Oh Mr. Internet lawyer, you are playing a dangerous game with me...as he pointed at me in the chest with my drivers license." I said something like, "its only a game to you.. I am DEAD ****ING SERIOUS..may I call my lawyer..his number is in my phone under Michel & Associates. He is a firearms attorney in CA. Can I call him while we talk?" The LEO told me not to use my phone, wait at my car. Two others showed up. After 30 minutes, and saying the same thing to another officer, I was given my license back and told to have a nice day.

program this into your phone people. You own a firearm in CA...that in itself means you need a lawyer on speed dial.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=245866

http://michellawyers.com/

Iggy
06-25-2011, 10:52 AM
I have another analogy...

Your car runs a Red Light. There is a camera recording the intersection. You are sent a picture of the car running the red light, its 100% your car. The picture of the driver is blurry. Unless you say, "That is me, I committed that crime." They can not charge you with the crime. Unless you say, "That is Joe driving my car." , they can not charge Joe with the crime.

If a LEO walks up to you and asks you, "Is that your magazine." You should actually say something like, "Can I help you sir." and "I don't answer questions without a lawyer present. Are you arresting me for a crime?" He may BS you into talking more, or he may even arrest you. The fact is unless you give him a statement, you can not be charged with a crime.... the is no such crime as [I]possession of a large capacity magazine... its NOT a crime. You can even tell the LEO that... and I have.

what I said to the officer was, "...the law says I can not manufacture or import large capacity magazines after 1/1/2000, so unless you have evidence that I did,...you are just fishing for a statement of guilt that I am not going to give you. I am done talking to you without my lawyer present." He said something like, "Oh Mr. Internet lawyer, you are playing a dangerous game with me...as he pointed at me in the chest with my drivers license." I said something like, "its only a game to you.. I am DEAD ****ING SERIOUS..may I call my lawyer..his number is in my phone under Michel & Associates. He is a firearms attorney in CA. Can I call him while we talk?" The LEO told me not to use my phone, wait at my car. Two others showed up. After 30 minutes, and saying the same thing to another officer, I was given my license back and told to have a nice day.

program this into your phone people. You own a firearm in CA...that in itself means you need a lawyer on speed dial.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=245866

Thanks for this.

Javi
06-25-2011, 11:01 AM
Very nice. Thank you, guys. I was scratching my shaved noggin' about HOW the heck would you prove something like that haha.

dieselpower
06-25-2011, 11:01 AM
http://www.calgunlawyers.com/Davis_%26_Associates/Home.html

another firm to program in...

dieselpower
06-25-2011, 11:02 AM
http://www.dklawoffice.com/

yet another firm to program in....

dieselpower
06-25-2011, 11:08 AM
http://www.calgunlawyers.com/Davis_%26_Associates/Gun_Rights_iPhone_Application.html

wow...nice Jason. didnt realize you had this made, I must have missed the post.

Noxx
06-25-2011, 11:31 AM
Awesome, I've had that iPhone app for a while, didn't realize it was from one of our own.


1) A person born on 1/2/2000 can LEGALLY gain, BUY, own and use large capacity magazines.

Thought I knew it all but that's what I get for thinking. How?

dieselpower
06-25-2011, 11:47 AM
Awesome, I've had that iPhone app for a while, didn't realize it was from one of our own.


1) A person born on 1/2/2000 can LEGALLY gain, BUY, own and use large capacity magazines.

Thought I knew it all but that's what I get for thinking. How?

because as far as I know there is no law saying a firearm magazine is an AGE restricted part, as is a receiver or ammunition. .... and its NOT illegal to BUY a large capacity magazine...find a large capacity magazine.... ect.

so unless there is a law I dont know about, such as you have to be over 18 to own any firearm part...or buy a firearm part, a 12 year old can walk around with a large capacity magazine as long as he/she acquired it legally.

researching that now... I have a meeting in 20 minutes, so I will update later if I find something.

dieselpower
06-25-2011, 2:31 PM
I am wrong on one point...

(b) Subdivision (a) does not apply to any of the following:
16) Any instrument, ammunition, weapon, or device listed in subdivision (a) (large capacity magazine) that is not a firearm that is found and possessed by a person who meets all of the following:
(A) The person is not prohibited from possessing firearms or ammunition pursuant to Section 12021 or 12021.1 or paragraph (1) of subdivision (b) of Section 12316 of this code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code.
(B) The person possessed the instrument, ammunition, weapon, or device no longer than was necessary to deliver or transport the same to a law enforcement agency for that agency's disposition according to law.
(C) If the person is transporting the listed item, he or she is transporting the listed item to a law enforcement agency for disposition according to law.


so its illegal to keep large capacity magazine inwhich you FOUND after 1/1/2000.....

Iggy
06-25-2011, 3:03 PM
So the question is, if the magazine/firearm was not in production before 1/1/2000, it is legal to buy, but no one can legally sell, how can anyone be in possession by legal means?

dieselpower
06-25-2011, 3:36 PM
So the question is, if the magazine/firearm was not in production before 1/1/2000, it is legal to buy, but no one can legally sell, how can anyone be in possession by legal means?

there are ways... for instance the law has a 3 year statute of limitations on prosecution....

here are all laws dealing with large capacity magazines...

California magazine law.
12020.
(a) Any person in this state who does any of the following is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or in the state prison:

(2) Commencing January 1, 2000, manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, or lends, any large-capacity magazine.

(b) Subdivision (a) does not apply to any of the following:

16) Any instrument, ammunition, weapon, or device listed in subdivision (a) that is not a firearm that is found and possessed by a person who meets all of the following:
(A) The person is not prohibited from possessing firearms or ammunition pursuant to Section 12021 or 12021.1 or paragraph (1) of subdivision (b) of Section 12316 of this code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code.
(B) The person possessed the instrument, ammunition, weapon, or device no longer than was necessary to deliver or transport the same to a law enforcement agency for that agency's disposition according to law.
(C) If the person is transporting the listed item, he or she is transporting the listed item to a law enforcement agency for disposition according to law.

(19) The sale of, giving of, lending of, importation into this state of, or purchase of, any large-capacity magazine to or by any federal, state, county, city and county, or city agency that is charged with the enforcement of any law, for use by agency employees in the discharge of their official duties whether on or off duty, and where the use is authorized by the agency and is within the course and scope of their duties.

(20) The sale to, lending to, transfer to, purchase by, receipt of, or importation into this state of, a large capacity magazine by a sworn peace officer as defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of Title 3 of Part 2 who is authorized to carry a firearm in the course and scope of his or her duties.

(21) The sale or purchase of any large-capacity magazine to or by a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071.

(22) The loan of a lawfully possessed large-capacity magazine between two individuals if all of the following conditions are met:
(A) The person being loaned the large-capacity magazine is not prohibited by Section 12021, 12021.1, or 12101 of this code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code from possessing firearms or ammunition.
(B) The loan of the large-capacity magazine occurs at a place or location where the possession of the large-capacity magazine is not otherwise prohibited and the person who lends the large-capacity magazine remains in the accessible vicinity of the person to whom the large-capacity magazine is loaned.

(23) The importation of a large-capacity magazine by a person who lawfully possessed the large-capacity magazine in the state prior to January 1, 2000, lawfully took it out of the state, and is returning to the state with the large-capacity magazine previously lawfully possessed in the state.

(24) The lending or giving of any large-capacity magazine to a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071, or to a gunsmith, for the purposes of maintenance, repair, or modification of that large-capacity magazine.

(25) The return to its owner of any large-capacity magazine by a person specified in paragraph (24).

(26) The importation into this state of, or sale of, any large-capacity magazine by a person who has been issued a permit to engage in those activities pursuant to Section 12079, when those activities are in accordance with the terms and conditions of that permit.

(27) The sale of, giving of, lending of, importation into this state of, or purchase of, any large-capacity magazine, to or by entities that operate armored vehicle businesses pursuant to the laws of this state.

(28) The lending of large-capacity magazines by the entities specified in paragraph (27) to their authorized employees, while in the course and scope of their employment for purposes that pertain to the entity's armored vehicle business.

(29) The return of those large-capacity magazines to those entities specified in paragraph (27) by those employees specified in paragraph (28).

(30)

(A) The manufacture of a large-capacity magazine for any federal, state, county, city and county, or city agency that is charged with the enforcement of any law, for use by agency employees in the discharge of their official duties whether on or off duty, and where the use is authorized by the agency and is within the course and scope of their duties.
(B) The manufacture of a large-capacity magazine for use by a sworn peace officer as defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of Title 3 of Part 2 who is authorized to carry a firearm in the course and scope of his or her duties.
(C) The manufacture of a large-capacity magazine for export or for sale to government agencies or the military pursuant to applicable federal regulations.

(31) The loan of a large-capacity magazine for use solely as a prop for a motion picture, television, or video production.

(32) The purchase of a large-capacity magazine by the holder of a special weapons permit issued pursuant to Section 12095, 12230, 12250, 12286, or 12305, for any of the following purposes:
(A) For use solely as a prop for a motion picture, television, or video production.
(B) For export pursuant to federal regulations.
(C) For resale to law enforcement agencies, government agencies, or the military, pursuant to applicable federal regulations.

(c)

(25) As used in this section, "large-capacity magazine" means any ammunition feeding device with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds, but shall not be construed to include any of the following:
(A) A feeding device that has been permanently altered so that it cannot accommodate more than 10 rounds.
(B) A .22 caliber tube ammunition feeding device.
(C) A tubular magazine that is contained in a lever-action firearm.(d) Knives carried in sheaths which are worn openly suspended from the waist of the wearer are not concealed within the meaning of this section.

BANG BANG
06-25-2011, 10:37 PM
I'm going to try and contact DOJ in regards to a ruling on my PWS FSC556 brake on a featureless rifle

$P-Ritch$
06-25-2011, 10:46 PM
I'm going to try and contact DOJ in regards to a ruling on my PWS FSC556 brake on a featureless rifle

Good luck on that.

The CA DOJ is notorious for not giving clarification on anything. I decided to try my luck and ask them the same thing about the battlecomp and their only reply was that at this time they could not specify whether it met the criteria of a flash suppressor or not. Then they just quoted that section of the penal code like I hadn't thought of reading it, even though I directly referred to it in my initial query.

dieselpower
06-26-2011, 10:23 AM
I'm going to try and contact DOJ in regards to a ruling on my PWS FSC556 brake on a featureless rifle

actually do that. When they send you a form letter stating they have no clue then cite the PC, host that letter here. If CA gun owners can show the DoJ is no help in determining firearm laws, in stark contrast to the DoJ helping other groups with the laws governing their activity, we can then show bias.

That bias is actually nefarious in nature and shows an agenda to turn honest people into criminals.

FeuerFrei
06-26-2011, 10:38 AM
Where do people get the kydex wraps as opposes to replacing the whole grip?

Buy them over the counter or make your own.
I suggest you make your own. Better fit and can be modded to give you some place to put your thumb if no ambi safety is present.
Grip tape also helps too.

stag6.8
06-26-2011, 11:52 AM
actually do that. When they send you a form letter stating they have no clue then cite the PC, host that letter here. If CA gun owners can show the DoJ is no help in determining firearm laws, in stark contrast to the DoJ helping other groups with the laws governing their activity, we can then show bias.

That bias is actually nefarious in nature and shows an agenda to turn honest people into criminals.

thats a great idea...Id also send that letter to hoffmang...bwiese...and the law office of chuck mitchel..they could use that letter in a court case if the doj states that in thier letter.