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gunguy123
06-23-2011, 8:10 AM
Hey guys I am trying to decide between purchasing a Daniel Defense or Del-ton rifle. I know the prices of each have a very large difference. I am also planning to put either an Aimpoint or Eotech on the rifle. If I got a Del-ton this would be much easier financially, but the difference in quality between the two is unknown to me. Is there any way I can purchase parts for the Del-ton to make it as mil-spec as the DD? Any opinions and tips will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks

KaLiFORNIA
06-23-2011, 8:13 AM
+1 for Daniel defense.

xxINKxx
06-23-2011, 8:16 AM
Daniel defence over del-ton any day of the week as far as quality.

Why buy a del ton and then blow more money to upgrade the parts to make it as good as the DD. All the money upgrading the del ton could of just went torwards getting the DD. Or another good brand.

If money is really a big issue just get the Del-ton. They make decent stuff for budget buys. And if you feel you want to upgrade stuff you could.

ChrisO
06-23-2011, 8:20 AM
lol Daniel Defense is a FAR better rifle than the del ton. My suggestion is get the DD and run irons for awhile while saving for a aimpoint or eotech. Nothing wrong with running a good set of iron sights. The thing that is good about Mil-spec is you can buy parts and expect them to interchange... not that the army uses them... :rolleyes: .

AlexKintner
06-23-2011, 8:38 AM
If you're asking yourself this now, it will always be eating at you if you buy the Del-Ton.

21SF
06-23-2011, 8:40 AM
I was in your shoes at one point, I called around the shops in my area looking for an AR.
A local shop had a bunch of AR's Daniel Defense, LMT, RR, etc. I held off because another shop had a delton for a very good price, when i went to look at the delton I almost started laughing, the fit and finish is piss poor.

msand951
06-23-2011, 8:54 AM
Get the best you can afford. You will always be wanting better and will want to upgrade if you get the Delton. Just get the DD and save yourself the trouble in trying to sell your Delton down the line wanting to upgrade. I built my lower and purchased a used upper DPMS. I paid 300 for the upper, Im happy with it but want something better now. If you want to save some money buy a lower and I'll sell you my upper with bcg for 300 plus shipping. http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc479/msand951/DSC02884.jpg

gunguy123
06-23-2011, 8:56 AM
Are there any other manufacturers that are worth noting in this forum? Between the DD and Del-ton I'm sure the DD is better but it is a lot more. Are there any good ARs that are "in between" when talking about price?

msand951
06-23-2011, 9:02 AM
BCM, comes to mind . Thats what I want to get.
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/

PolishMike
06-23-2011, 9:05 AM
Spikes, lmt, dd.

We have seen nothing but problems with delton guns.

Evolution247
06-23-2011, 9:28 AM
BCM, comes to mind . Thats what I want to get.
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/

+1 BCM makes great quality products. I sold all of my AR's in favor of BCM. That's all I run now. Or should I say for now...:D

HK Dave
06-23-2011, 9:34 AM
It depends on what you're using it for. If its mostly for plinking and shooting paper at the range, then the Delton will be just fine. Yes you can buy parts to upgrade it to "mil-spec" but it will end up costing more than just starting off all "mil-spec".

Daniel Defense is more expensive than the Delton but it comes with a lot more. Whether you NEED it is completely up to you. (You probably don't)

BTW "Mil-spec" does not mean "Best".

I have a safe full of Daniel Defense, Larue, LMT, Spikes, CMMG... and I've also owned many other brands in the past including the more value brands.... and let me tell you, I never had any of them fail. :P

gunguy123
06-23-2011, 9:37 AM
I will be using this rifle for home defense and a few carbine classes. I expect to fire around 1000 rounds through the rifle every month.

docsmileyface
06-23-2011, 9:40 AM
Cut the difference and go with a Spikes, uses all milspec parts (including DD barrels) for a similar price point as a del-ton. Like others said Del-Ton isn't bad, certainly one of the best deals for kit guns, my first AR was a Del-Ton and it functioned perfectly besides the fact that I didn't stake my castle nut and my buttstock ended up loosening up on me, but that was my own fault since I built it. But as a whole comparing a Del-Ton to a DD is like comparing a commuter sedan to a sports car. They both get you to work, just one is a whole lot cooler and high speed.

edit: just saw that you want to shoot 1000 rounds through it a month? definitely forgo the DelTon and get the Daniel Defense.

http://www.youtube.com/user/DanielDefense#p/a/u/1/89HEefl1KI4

1forall
06-23-2011, 9:46 AM
I thought this was a joke thread until I clicked it. DD is a better built rifle.

HK Dave
06-23-2011, 9:47 AM
1000 rounds a month? Go Daniel Defense. :)

CK_32
06-23-2011, 9:47 AM
Well you tell us... Can you afford a DD... if you can do it. If not del ton.

gunguy123
06-23-2011, 9:51 AM
Is there any manufacturer that can offer what Daniel Defense can offer at the same or lower price? Thanks for the advice guys Del-ton is definitely out the window.

CK_32
06-23-2011, 9:54 AM
Check out BCM too I think they have both at this site. They just started using DD barrels.

BravocompanyUSA.com

docsmileyface
06-23-2011, 10:55 AM
BCM is pretty much the best deal for the money - $399 for a stripped upper that follows or betters the government's TDP for the M4.

UserM4
06-23-2011, 11:03 AM
You can afford to shoot 1000rds a month but you're contemplating between delton and dd? :confused:

Also if there was another company that could give you dd quality for less nobody would be spending their hard earned money on dd.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk

shadow65
06-23-2011, 11:20 AM
Between the two, Daniel Defense without a second thought.

RaiderNation
06-23-2011, 11:24 AM
You can afford to shoot 1000rds a month but you're contemplating between delton and dd? :confused:



+1 I was confused as well. To the OP DD is a far better product. If you can afford to shoot that much there shouldn't be any reason not to get the DD. Buy once and cry once. I can't tell you how many times I got something because it was cheap or a good deal and ended up selling it and getting something better.

grunz
06-23-2011, 11:26 AM
Go with Daniel Defense or BCM.

Don't buy a Del-ton.

Also why are you worried about a few hundred bucks on the rifle when you plan to spend several thousands of dollars a year on ammo? 1K rounds a month adds up.

giants_fan24
06-23-2011, 11:34 AM
Daniel defence over del-ton any day of the week as far as quality.

Why buy a del ton and then blow more money to upgrade the parts to make it as good as the DD. All the money upgrading the del ton could of just went torwards getting the DD. Or another good brand.

If money is really a big issue just get the Del-ton. They make decent stuff for budget buys. And if you feel you want to upgrade stuff you could.

I totally agree

gunguy123
06-23-2011, 12:18 PM
Yeah I agree I'm thinking about buying a carbine length BCM upper and putting on a BCM lower. Plus the BCG and charging handle and iron sights it would add up to $1107. Looks like a good option.

EvolutionGSR
06-23-2011, 1:00 PM
It seems hard to beat the value you get from a daniel defense. Bcm might be a little more depending on what u want but they have so many confiurations it would be hard not to find a setup that is almost if not exactly what u want. As long as u are patient enough for the wait for it to be in stock.

SanPedroShooter
06-23-2011, 1:01 PM
I understand that Rifle Gear.com uppers are made by DD, they just dont have the logo.
I got an LMT.

hollowpoint
06-23-2011, 1:11 PM
I understand you want to be able to throw a nice optic on your rifle right away and you are contemplating Delton because of the price BUT DD quality is hands down better, Delton is not even close to being in the same league as DD. Get the DD and practice with your irons then save for an optic.

mif_slim
06-23-2011, 1:13 PM
Typical Calgun replies, you don't need the best to run with the rest. I have a ton of ar's from frankin-AR to DD and although the fit and finish is far in between all of them have shot perfecty fine.... A few had hiccups at "brake-in" but nothing that lube couldnt fix.

If your kicking down doors, go for the best, if you bench shooting (which I think most people are) then any brand will work. It all depends on your decision.

john.t.singh
06-23-2011, 1:19 PM
everyone always says a lower is a lower... so why don't you just buy an aero or jd lower, and then spend money on a nicer upper. I think you will average less than a DD but still a quality build.

evidens83
06-23-2011, 1:20 PM
Is this even a serious question?

FWIW my very first build used a Del-Ton upper. Absolutely 100% reliable not one single hiccup. Excellent budget upper if you ask me. But if you have the money, DD no doubt!

blazeaglory
06-23-2011, 2:15 PM
Is this even a serious question?

FWIW my very first build used a Del-Ton upper. Absolutely 100% reliable not one single hiccup. Excellent budget upper if you ask me. But if you have the money, DD no doubt!


yeah same here. i bought an AR off of a fellow calgunner. its a CMMG lower with a del-ton heavy upper. the craftsmanship is very good and it shoots straight. it fits snug on my lower and looks bad ***. it has a square forge mark. i dont know about del-ton lowers, but i would have no problem buying another del-ton upper. although there is a little carbon build up where the BCG locks into place towards the top of the feed ramp (possibly from shooting 22lr). other than that it is fine. and for the price, del-ton uppers are very good.

ZX-10R
06-23-2011, 2:16 PM
I am also planning to put either an Aimpoint or Eotech on the rifle.

Those are not cheap by the way. So why would you look at a Delton if you are considering those kinds of scopes?

Daniel Defense...I have a Delton Franken AR....The Daniel Defense hands down is a wayyyy better build, more accurate, and has a touch of quality that is lacking in the Delton.

HK Dave
06-23-2011, 2:19 PM
Hmm perhaps the OP is trolling?

If you have the money to shoot 1K rounds a month and have the cash to drop an aimpoint or eotech on your rifle... you shouldn't even be asking about the Delton. What's a few hundred bucks to someone spending $500+ on optics and $4000 a year on ammo?

LNTT
06-23-2011, 2:30 PM
+1 for BCM or DD from me

fuzz415
06-23-2011, 2:34 PM
I have a DD rifle, no problems whatsoever, love my rifle.

Abra Philippines
06-23-2011, 3:14 PM
For the price... Del-Ton is very tempting!

I bought both and I'm a happy camper!

451040
06-23-2011, 3:24 PM
Del-ton or Daniel Defense?


Daniel Defense

Clutch-n-Throttle
06-23-2011, 3:28 PM
Here's what I ended up realizing after I did my research. This is all just a subjective opinion that may be shared by others

LaRue, DD, Noveske, LMT = Benz,BMW,Porsche,Cadillac

CMMG, BCM,Stag, Rockriver Arms, Spikes, = Chevy, Ford,Dodge

del-ton, DPMS, Chiappas = KIA, Hyundai(the early years)... etc.

Don29palms
06-23-2011, 3:49 PM
Build your own! Do some real research and figure out what you need and want. Shop around and get the best deals you can on parts. If you can't build it yourself you can take your parts to a gunsmith to put your upper together. Building a lower is easy and frankly if you can't put a lower together you probably shouldn't own an AR to begin with. That being said if the choices are between DD and Del-Ton it will always be DD. The difference in price is based on the quality of parts used to build each rifle. Look at the specs for each rifle and compare what you get and you'll see why.

Noah3683
06-23-2011, 6:25 PM
Here's what I ended up realizing after I did my research. This is all just a subjective opinion that may be shared by others

LaRue, DD, Noveske, LMT = Benz,BMW,Porsche,Cadillac

CMMG, BCM,Stag, Rockriver Arms, Spikes, = Chevy, Ford,Dodge

del-ton, DPMS, Chiappas = KIA, Hyundai(the early years)... etc.

LaRue, Noveske = Ferarri

Daniel Defense, BCM, LMT, Colt = Hummer

Spikes = Somewhere just below let's say Super-Duty, HD or whatever

CMMG, RRA, Stag, S&W = the average 1/2 ton

The last you got right on lol

Bobby714
06-23-2011, 6:33 PM
Daniel Defense...no brainer, the extra money spent will be well worth it. If you go with the Del-Ton you will be kicking yourself later. I own a DDM4, probably the best purchase I've made in years. The only question should be which version of the M4.

HUND
06-23-2011, 7:11 PM
Never had a issue with my Delton

r6raff
06-23-2011, 7:21 PM
If you were shooting 1000 rounds a year I would say get a Delton and not notice a difference. Considering that in 3-4 months of shooting, your ammo bill will be larger than the cost of your rifle, why would you skimp on the rifle? I have never owned a Delton but I have shot them and seen them in action, and from those experiences I wouldn't buy one that I intend to shoot regularly (1000+rounds a month)

Basically, if you are planning on spending $3600 a year on ammo, why not spend a few extra hundred on a legitimate rifle. The difference will be replacing a few parts at 10-12k round vs. the entire rifle. The rifle is the cheap part of the purchase, the ammo is where costs really build up, unless you like to just own weapons and never shoot them and act like your cool...

I have about 8000 rounds through my BCM in less than a year and have very little issues, every issue has been ammo related and that has been restricted to steel cased Tula ammo.

But do what you will, I say spend a few extra hundred now and potentially several hundreds in the future and enjoy a reliable Rifle. I would recommend BCM, DD, Spikes, Stag... in that order for a very cost effective upper-mid tier rifle.

gun505
06-23-2011, 8:17 PM
Get a Daniel just got back from putting 500 rds through mine runs great!

fuenstock
06-23-2011, 9:40 PM
Another vote for DD. Heres mine all cleaned up after a day at the range.

http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt131/fuenstock/brown.jpg

SIGSHOOTR
06-23-2011, 10:01 PM
Another vote for DD. Heres mine all cleaned up after a day at the range.

http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt131/fuenstock/brown.jpg

+1 for DD. Great out of the box gun IMO. Sharp looking rifle. Dig that multi-cam Ares Armor Amentum sling. Mine is in coyote-- best sling I have ever used.

gunguy123
06-24-2011, 2:03 AM
I think I'm gonna go with the BCM option because it is cheaper than the DD without giving up too much quality. And the reason I can afford to shoot off 1000 rounds a month is because many of my friends that don't have guns go shooting with me every weekend and pay for ammo. A good deal for me!

dandingo13
06-24-2011, 9:26 AM
I think I'm gonna go with the BCM option because it is cheaper than the DD without giving up too much quality. And the reason I can afford to shoot off 1000 rounds a month is because many of my friends that don't have guns go shooting with me every weekend and pay for ammo. A good deal for me!

I had pretty much the exact same dilemma as you. I knew virtually nothing about ARs and read a lot of good things about Del-Ton. I was set on a Del-Ton until I started digging deeper. I wanted something that would outlast me and so I decided on either a BCM or DD.

I originally wanted a BCM but their midlength lightweight has been out of stock for months. The DD was only $10 more and the barrel is cold hammer forged. Not only that, but the DD came into stock a month and half ago ago from Smartgunner.com. I figured I couldn't lose by spending $10 more to get the cold hammer forged. I'd say check both sites everyday and whichever comes in stock first, go for it. You can't go wrong with either.

Shenaniguns
06-24-2011, 9:51 AM
If you're patient, DD uppers from Smartgunner are a fantastic deal :D

http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad251/SShenaniguns/b7555b7e.jpg

smle-man
06-24-2011, 10:35 AM
So, who out of the responders who said that a Del-ton is not the rifle for shooting a lot of rounds through has shot a thousand rounds a month through a Del-ton and what happened when you did so? Did it fall apart, blow up, or melt? Did molten metal run out the bore from all the rounds down the tube? What made the Del-ton fail? Saying that it probably won't stand up to a large number of rounds and experiencing the failure are two different issues.

gunguy123
06-26-2011, 12:01 PM
I ordered a 14.5" BCM Upper with a permanently attached flash hider. It had good reviews and I don't doubt BCM's quality. I've heard a lot of good about them and not any bad.

smle-man
06-26-2011, 12:13 PM
I just took a Del-ton A2 upper with a Stag lower to the range for the first time today. Accuracy with Malaysian 5.56 @ 100 yds was great, worked fine, nothing failed or fell off. The quality seems to be just as good on the first go around as the Colt HBAR I had many years ago.

The War Wagon
06-26-2011, 12:15 PM
Daniel Defense, hands down. BCM would be my second choice. :cool:

Knife Edge
06-26-2011, 12:39 PM
14.5" DD !!

I plink steel squirrels at 200 yards with it using a T-1 and swapped out 3x. Accuracy is up there. The parkerizing is easy to fall off.

iskra31
06-26-2011, 7:26 PM
A lot of fan boys in here...there's nothing wrong with Del-ton. But if I had the money I'd get a DD or BCM. Just depends on how "cool" you want to look at the range bench shooting. :D

ZX-10R
06-26-2011, 8:38 PM
I have a Delton and Daniel Defense as I said...The DD easily trumps a Delton...Side by side the person who thinks they are equal in quality IS FOOLING THEMSELVES. Not close at all. Both shoot well but the DD is just a tad more accurate than the Delton and the quality is not even close. a DD is a 10...A Delton is 6.5-7.

r6raff
06-26-2011, 8:59 PM
A lot of fan boys in here...there's nothing wrong with Del-ton. But if I had the money I'd get a DD or BCM. Just depends on how "cool" you want to look at the range bench shooting. :D

Just curious, do you call all the people that don't like huffy, daewoo or malt o meal Fanboys? I see nothing FanBoyish in prefering a product that is clearly a superior.

Now from my personal experiences with Del-ton, while shooting those rifles I had the highest rate of failures, ie Stuck cases and FTEs primarily, the only time I have ever seen a stuck brass case was with a Del-ton. Now this is a small sample size considering I have only put several hundred rounds down the pipe of Del-tons but I think I had close to 10 malfuntions in less than 700 rounds, vs 3 in 8000 rounds with my BCM, 5 in 4000 with a Bushy and 4 in 4000 with a DD.

Not to mention that the finished product on a Del-ton shows why you can get a complete one for 5-600 bucks, generally poor fitment and finish.

Now, from a serious standpoint, if you can't afford to spend a grand on a rifle, you sure as hell wont be able to spend enough to properly train and get proficient with the weapon. I can see buying one on the cheap to have in standby or so random friends can shoot it when you hit the range or for a child, but when you want to put over 1000 rounds a month and take carbine classes etc... and use it for a SHTF rifle, seriously why are they even asking this question.

My experiences with Del-ton are exactly that... my experiences, and they are enough for me to never trust my life behind one of those weapons. In my opinion, they would be acceptable as a weekend shooter, maybe a few thousand rounds a year at best, but you bet I would have a more dependable rifle on hand in case SHTF, would I rather have a Del-ton then nothing, absolutely, but given the option, it would not be anywhere near the top of my preferred list.

Were not talking about a lexus vs audi vs bmw here, were talking pinto vs porshe

Cyc Wid It
06-26-2011, 10:22 PM
Look at all the class review threads. Do you see anybody running Del-Ton's?

Tinknocker
06-26-2011, 10:54 PM
WOW!!! I just had my ### schooled! was thinking about a Delton or M&P sport. Now I guess I'll be thinking of a building my own lower and buy an upper, now to search and compare. :D

r6raff
06-26-2011, 11:31 PM
WOW!!! I just had my ### schooled! was thinking about a Delton or M&P sport. Now I guess I'll be thinking of a building my own lower and buy an upper, now to search and compare. :D

Seriously, if you assemble it yourself and look for deals (there are always decent deal to be had) then you can build your self an upper mid tier weapon for under a grand easily. When you project the over all cost of operating the rifle over a year or two the cost of the rifle is actually quite minimal (at least if you shoot like I do =P) The difference between a standard hanguard and adjustible stock Del-top and BCM/dd/spikes etc... isnt more than a few hundred bucks. To be honest, this isn't a cheap sport or hobby. If that extra money is really going to hurt that bad, may want to find something else to spend it on, cause you are going to be sitting and looking at that rifle a lot more than shooting it. *** im saying "you" as in you Tink, just generally speaking ***

Again, my experience are my experiences, I know guys who have ran a few thousand rounds through their del-tons with little issue, but whenever I have used one semi hard, malfunctions start happening. All I know is this... I ran about a thousand rounds threw my BCM in less then an hour with out a single hiccup, did the same with a DD, but both the times (with different Del-tons mind you) I started rapid firing with the delton, the malfunctions start occurring. Maybe I handled two bad Del-tons but they are 0/2 in my book and for a few hundred more ill take a quality Firearm. When i have explosions happening inches from my face, I sure aint going to skimp a few bucks, rather runs steel cased ammo for a few months than run a piece of **** weapon for a few years.

gunguy123
06-27-2011, 1:39 AM
After hearing what r6raff had to say I am definitely happy that I did not go with the Del-ton!

Arisaka
06-27-2011, 7:37 AM
The finish on my Del Ton is nicer than my friend's Colt Sporter (A2 style). What about the Delton is low quality? The lower doesn't make a difference, so let's get down to what could possibly be the problem. Does Delton have crappy barrels? Is the actual upper reciever garbage (doubt that, its just a piece of aluminum)? Bolt carrier/bolt bad? Pin it down for me please. There are only so many parts to an AR, and I would like to know where the "low quality" parts are. List them please.

themailman
06-27-2011, 7:55 AM
A lot of fan boys in here...there's nothing wrong with Del-ton. But if I had the money I'd get a DD or BCM. Just depends on how "cool" you want to look at the range bench shooting. :D

So, because you are poor, you are not a fanboy? Wow.

Arisaka
06-27-2011, 8:00 AM
I have the money, and bought a DelTon (flame... ON!)

Rock_Islander
06-27-2011, 8:22 AM
OMG is all I can say. I dont own a Daniel Defense, but I DO own a Mil-Spec M4 made by Spikes which is considered "top tier" now according to the new AR-15 rifle chart.

But I also own a Del-Ton and there is absolutely nothing wrong with saving money by buying the Del-Ton.

They come with a properly staked, CHROME LINED bolt carrier, and an HPT/MPI tested bolt. The barrels are 4140 chromoly vanadium (very tough, 4150 is almost unnecessary in my opinion) and Del-Ton barrels can be had in the chrome lined assortment. The barrels are also parkerized underneath the front sight base, same as DD or any Mil-Spec brand.

The front sight bases are forged, and pinned properly.

I ordered my Del-Ton with the Heavy-Barrel, Midlength gas system, and had them put on the Yankee Hill Free Float Quadrail, and it is actually MORE ACCURATE THAN MY MIL-SPEC SPIKES. And the gas system makes it more reliable than my Spikes Carbine gas system.

Don't just totally shut out Del-Ton because of naysayers that don't actually own one. I can post pictures if you'd like of both of my rifles. I love them both, but the Del-Ton is value and performance in one package.

gunguy123
06-27-2011, 9:12 AM
Which one of your rifles (the spikes or the delton) had more jams/stoppages?

mif_slim
06-27-2011, 9:42 AM
My 1,300 dollar AR works just as well as my 390 dollar AR I built from junk parts. Take care of it, make sure all parts are spec, lube it well and your good to go....Like I said before, the lower end wont compare at all with the higher end AR a bit, but for function-wise, they work just fine.

My 390.00 frankin-AR worked to 2311 rounds before jamming 1 time. I cleaned it then sprayed it with brake-cleaner just to get it super dry and ran it. Shot 1460 rounds before its first jam...that was super dry. No oil nothing lubercating AR. I was pretty impress with it. After I cleaned it and lubed it, its been at about 3,000 rounds with no stoppage so Im happy.

Arisaka
06-27-2011, 10:37 AM
The only time I've ever had a problem with my DelTon was the first time out, I had the hammer spring in wrong. Ever since then, smooth sailing. Accurate too.

iskra31
06-27-2011, 10:43 AM
I have the money, and bought a DelTon (flame... ON!)

+1! saved the money for ammo.

762.DEFENSE
06-27-2011, 12:46 PM
Daniel Defense by far over the Del-Ton, but if cost is an issue..pay a little bit more and get a complete BCM upper, a PSA lower(on sale for $50), a PSA LPK and call it a day.

762.DEFENSE
06-27-2011, 12:46 PM
I have the money, and bought a DelTon (flame... ON!)

My brother has a Del-Ton upper and hasn't had any issues with it yet. They're a solid company, there's just plenty better out there.

Charlie50
06-27-2011, 1:12 PM
yeah same here. i bought an AR off of a fellow calgunner. its a CMMG lower with a del-ton heavy upper. the craftsmanship is very good and it shoots straight. it fits snug on my lower and looks bad ***. it has a square forge mark. i dont know about del-ton lowers, but i would have no problem buying another del-ton upper. although there is a little carbon build up where the BCG locks into place towards the top of the feed ramp (possibly from shooting 22lr). other than that it is fine. and for the price, del-ton uppers are very good.

plus above.
Delton is fine, mine never misses a beat, or the black!, huge bang for buck, no regrets ... if you have the money why not get the best you can DD or any of the semi customs would be great to own.

MTG Firearms
06-27-2011, 1:19 PM
Of the two options I'd go DD for sure.

Rock_Islander
06-27-2011, 1:22 PM
Which one of your rifles (the spikes or the delton) had more jams/stoppages?

I lube the bolt carrier group on both. Neither have stoppages, both are flawless thus far with everything from PMC X-Tac to Wolf "cruddy" ammo.

I can actually post pictures too when I charge my camera of close up shots of the bolt carrier from both my Spikes and my Del-Ton. They look almost identical in smoothness of parkerization and EVERYTHING about the quality of it.

Arisaka
06-27-2011, 1:42 PM
Daniel Defense by far over the Del-Ton, but if cost is an issue..pay a little bit more and get a complete BCM upper, a PSA lower(on sale for $50), a PSA LPK and call it a day.

Why Daniel Defense over Del-Ton? Specifically? I'm just curious as to where these "shortcomings" are on Del-Ton rifles. Online, the only gripes I've seen are "carrier key not properly staked". Well, mine is. And so are those of others on this and other boards. Since that is no longer a problem, all I hear is "quality is lesser than XYZ company". In what way? I'm not directing this directly at 762.D3A7H, I am just growing weary of these percieved quality issues. I still have not seen a broken Del-Ton. I have not seen pics of failures. I have compared mine side to side with a Colt, as mentioned before, and the finish on the Del-Ton is superior. So..... why is DD/BCM better? The glove has been thrown down.... :D

/rant off

Rock_Islander
06-27-2011, 3:03 PM
^ What he said. Like I said I own a top quality AR, according to the "chart" and I own a Del-Ton. I bet most of the folks saying that the Del-Ton is not as good don't even own them! Nor have they shot them enough to make a clear and concise opinion that actually breaks down the shortcomings or advantages of "XYZ" brand over another. Daniel Defense is top notch stuff, they list all of their features everywhere they sell their stuff. But you can make a side by side checklist and 95% of those features are also included on the Del-Tons.

iskra31
06-27-2011, 3:29 PM
I love my Del-ton, it serves the purpose I bought it for. Sure I would love to have a DD or BCM, but I don't feel like building another AR until this one breaks. I never heard any bad about DD or BCM or Del-ton for that matter. If I had to choose between DD and Del-ton right now, I'd choose DD. That doesn't mean I think Del-ton is garbage or not worth wasting money on, but I would like to try a "quality" rifle and see what all the hype is about. Its like comparing my Aimpoint to my Primary Arms copy, both get the job done, but the Aimpoint seems like a little better quality. Nothing wrong with either.

Now with that said, F*** the AR, got buy yourself an AK! :D

Dhena81
06-27-2011, 4:21 PM
I would go with DD over the two without a doubt at 1k rounds a month the extra money spent going to a hammer forged barrel and MPI critical parts.

If I was to have one AR though I'd go with the LMT MRP just because of versatility of CL, SS, barrel length, calibers, and gas systems.

Arisaka
06-27-2011, 4:22 PM
Now with that said, F*** the AR, got buy yourself an AK! :D

Word up.

What happened to all the Del-Ton haters? Where did they go? :43:

Noah3683
06-27-2011, 5:52 PM
My buddy just got a del-ton and it jammed up over and over again. It has already been sent back. I wish I would've taken a video. It was short stroking left and right. Tried different buffers, 4 different types of ammo. Re cleaned and lubed it. Still nothing but problems. This is the first real known Issue other than gas key staking I had seen or heard of. For the marginal price difference, I would at least upgrade to stag. Oh and there is no way in hell DTI is even close to Daniel Defense in fit & finish. When he gets it back I will get video to see if its fixed, and nice high resolution shots of the finish comparison

Arisaka
06-27-2011, 6:12 PM
I would totally like to see the video. mine was built from one of their kits, I wonder if that makes a difference..

Noah3683
06-27-2011, 6:14 PM
I would totally like to see the video. mine was built from one of their kits, I wonder if that makes a difference..

Anything is possible. He got it separate and paired it with a Defcon lower from Ammo Bros. My close friend had one a couple years ago now and he had no issues. He is the one that recommended it to the other buddy for a budget AR. We were both in shock to see it perform this way. Oh and his finish was real splotchy. The original one I seen wasn't an excellent finish, but certainly better than this recent one

r6raff
06-27-2011, 11:26 PM
Word up.

What happened to all the Del-Ton haters? Where did they go? :43:

I would totally like to see the video. mine was built from one of their kits, I wonder if that makes a difference..

Its called work =P got to pay for those over priced ARs:rolleyes:

Seriously, there is only enough times I can relay first had info enough times before it gets a little old, why is it so hard for you to accept that we have had issues with these? I have seen issues with BCM, Noveske, BM, Colt, etc... I don't deny those, I know all manufacturers have lemons and issues, it's called human error.

I happen to have had really bad experiences with Del-ton, does that upset you in some way? I have no doubt that you don't have issues with your Del-ton, and I know of more than a few people who have flawless operating Del-tons. The issue I have with Del-ton isn't the fact that I have seen bad ones ( I have seen poorly performing ARs of most manufactureres) Its the fact that the frequency of bad Del-tons seems far higher than other manufacturers I have been exposed to.

I'm not trying to sell you anything, I have zero stock in anything anyone on this forums does, I gain absolutely nothing if everyone and their mother buys Del-ton or any other brand. I have simply relayed my experiences accurately so that they can be considered by others,I am truly sorry my experiences don't back up yours and that you don't like what I have to say... get over it.

Anyone can buy whatever they want, you can buy del-tons all day if you like, matters little to me.

My BCM has never failed... doesnt mean BCM never fail. What I hear from a lot of people who run Del-ton "Mine has never failed, so that means Del-tons never fail" Sounds like these folk are living in a fantasy land... maybe there are other experiences beyond your own... ever think about that? Ohh and you need notarized documented proof of failure right? or it didn't happen. Cracks me up man, don't you realize that the world doesn't turn around you and that real life exists outside your eye sight?

Either way, if your Del-ton is as good as you say, then good for you man! You got a hell of a deal and I would be happy about that. Me, I will spend a few hundred more and get a rock solid proven weapon system that I know will not let me down when it needs to be ran hard in the mud and ****. I personally take a little more comfort in knowing that my weapon wasn't built as cheaply as possible, I want the person who built and tested my components to take their time and make it right, but thats just me.

Regardless, all us "haters" as you call it are merely telling it as we see it, if that is too much for you, then get off the forums and go back to patting yourself on the back and telling yourself how you got a top tier weapon for rock bottom prices. :D

Cheers:cheers2:

r6raff
06-27-2011, 11:28 PM
Anything is possible. He got it separate and paired it with a Defcon lower from Ammo Bros. My close friend had one a couple years ago now and he had no issues. He is the one that recommended it to the other buddy for a budget AR. We were both in shock to see it perform this way. Oh and his finish was real splotchy. The original one I seen wasn't an excellent finish, but certainly better than this recent one

Nah bro, it wasn't a Del-ton, cause mine is perfect, so they are all perfect... /sarcasm

Don't bother trying to relay your info, some people just don't want to hear it. I for one wont waste another minute typing in this thread.

3...

2...

1...

Done:eek:

patriot_man
06-28-2011, 3:38 AM
lol. Daniel Defense. Del-Ton is no way comparable to Daniel Defense.

ZX-10R
06-28-2011, 6:58 AM
This was not even a comparison really...In the end you are looking at two tiered products. Think AutoCad 2D versus SolidWorks or better yet, Catia versus SolidWorks. OP is fishing on this one.

Yeah I own a WASR that owns ARs and even then, I would still say get the Daniel Defense (beautifully made rifle) and then get an AK pattern. My Daniel Defense was so awesome that the Delton Franken AR I have gets shot by my friend...Yes, it is theoretically been sold.

Dirty506
06-28-2011, 7:05 AM
DANIEL DEFEENNNSSSEEEE...if you have the cash. but if not make sure you get a good BCG and barrel if nothing else.

Brown Rock
06-28-2011, 9:14 AM
Get one of these http://palmettostatearmory.com/2235.php or this http://palmettostatearmory.com/2065.php and build your own lower.

Tactical Tom
06-28-2011, 9:58 AM
If you know what you really want you should buy it otherwise you will never really be happy. If you dont want to go custom buy an LMT.

Arisaka
06-28-2011, 10:16 AM
Its called work =P got to pay for those over priced ARs:rolleyes:

Seriously, there is only enough times I can relay first had info enough times before it gets a little old, why is it so hard for you to accept that we have had issues with these? I have seen issues with BCM, Noveske, BM, Colt, etc... I don't deny those, I know all manufacturers have lemons and issues, it's called human error. I don't have a hard time accepting that you have had issues, the question was "which parts of a Del Ton rifle are low quality?

I happen to have had really bad experiences with Del-ton, does that upset you in some way? No. I don't care. People have bad experiences with all kinds of mechanical devices. Doesn't mean that the mechanical device sucks.I have no doubt that you don't have issues with your Del-ton, and I know of more than a few people who have flawless operating Del-tons. The issue I have with Del-ton isn't the fact that I have seen bad ones ( I have seen poorly performing ARs of most manufactureres) Its the fact that the frequency of bad Del-tons seems far higher than other manufacturers I have been exposed to.

I'm not trying to sell you anything, I have zero stock in anything anyone on this forums does, I gain absolutely nothing if everyone and their mother buys Del-ton or any other brand. I have simply relayed my experiences accurately so that they can be considered by others,I am truly sorry my experiences don't back up yours and that you don't like what I have to say... get over it. Once again, missed the point. I'm not trying to say that since my Del Ton is good, then you are full of ****. I'm trying to say that if there are specific parts that are low quality, please tell which parts those are.

Anyone can buy whatever they want, you can buy del-tons all day if you like, matters little to me. Thanks!

My BCM has never failed... doesnt mean BCM never fail. What I hear from a lot of people who run Del-ton "Mine has never failed, so that means Del-tons never fail" Didn't say that.Sounds like these folk are living in a fantasy land... maybe there are other experiences beyond your own... ever think about that?Duh, once again, of course I've heard of people having issues with their rifle's operation. Every brand malfunctions. Ohh and you need notarized documented proof of failure right? I asked if there were any other build quality issues besides the bolt carrier key staking, or lack thereof. That is allor it didn't happen. Cracks me up man, don't you realize that the world doesn't turn around you and that real life exists outside your eye sight? Now you're just being a dick.

Either way, if your Del-ton is as good as you say, then good for you man! You got a hell of a deal and I would be happy about that. Me, I will spend a few hundred more and get a rock solid proven weapon system that I know will not let me down when it needs to be ran hard in the mud and ****. I personally take a little more comfort in knowing that my weapon wasn't built as cheaply as possible, I want the person who built and tested my components to take their time and make it right, but thats just me.

Regardless, all us "haters" as you call it are merely telling it as we see it, if that is too much for you, then get off the forums and go back to patting yourself on the back and telling yourself how you got a top tier weapon for rock bottom prices. :DAnd you can go back to playing Chairborne Ranger with your "Top Tier" rifle.

Cheers:cheers2:

The point...... you missed it. :rolleyes:

r6raff
06-29-2011, 1:05 AM
The point...... you missed it. :rolleyes:

Last post in this thread... I hope...

I don't have a hard time accepting that you have had issues, the question was "which parts of a Del Ton rifle are low quality? BCG are known to be sub par, improperly staked gas key and ****ty extractors mainly. A couple Del-tons I have inspected have had mis aligned feedramps, but this could be due to the builder of the parts kit. Every Del-ton I have shot has been less accurate than any DD, Spikes, BCM I have shot, a side from a DD a buddy of mine had that had 15,000+ rounds threw it. The difference was minimal but with 10 shot groups at 100 yards, open sights on sand bags the 2 Del-ton rifles consistently had larger groups, if I remember correctly it was by an average of 3/8", a couple bigger or smaller. I personally am not a precision monkey so this isn't so much of an issue. I have seen some very rough finishes on the upper receivers and barrels, the barrels they finish themselves and I think they use mossberg barrels. Unless you specify an upgraded LPK I think you get random stuff, or at best a random complete kit, I guess whatever they can get the cheapest. other than that I am not sure, but based on the issues I have seen I would also guess that have issues with over gassing, but I never troubleshot the weapon after repeated failures, just gave it back to the owner and went back to shooting my weapons. If I could get a complete "new" delton with a chrome lined barrel for less than $500 I would probably buy one for a backup and then I would tell you exactly what was wrong with it and what I did to get it squared away.

Its the fact that the frequency of bad Del-tons seems far higher than other manufacturers I have been exposed to. Again for emphasis as to why I came to the decision I did

Once again, missed the point. I'm not trying to say that since my Del Ton is good, then you are full of ****. I'm trying to say that if there are specific parts that are low quality, please tell which parts those are.See top of post, Short Sweet Version : GasKey, Barrel finish/accuracy, random lpk, Over gassed, poor extractors.

Anyone can buy whatever they want, you can buy del-tons all day if you like, matters little to me. Thanks! AnyTime! =D

Cracks me up man, don't you realize that the world doesn't turn around you and that real life exists outside your eye sight? Now you're just being a dick. I am a Dick lol, I generally do behave myself though... sometimes:cool:

Either way, if your Del-ton is as good as you say, then good for you man! You got a hell of a deal and I would be happy about that.

And you can go back to playing Chairborne Ranger with your "Top Tier" rifle. Seriously, Chairborne Ranger... did you come up with that all by yourself? First off, maybe you misread my posts, but never once did I ever say anything that would draw that conclusion. Again you are assuming that since I prefer more proven and tested equipment that I am some sort of elitist, Fanboy or hater. Never once did I talk about the effectiveness in combat or as an operator, or how Navy seals use this or that, or how I would prefer this in Astan or that. So why don't you keep your little pet names for someone else :thumbsup:

You are getting very defensive over something you shouldn't be, unless you are in someway affiliated with Del-ton, in which case, this all makes sense. The OP asked a question, some people answered with their experiences, anything negative you decided to challenge, asking specific info, causes, effects and even pictures and videos, essentially calling BS on everyone who had something negative to say about your beloved Del-ton, even baiting people in one of your posts. You are the only one in this thread that can be labeled a Fan boy in my opinion, but I don't play little kid games with name calling and crap... I am an Adult and I act accordingly...most of the time.

Personally, if I wasn't able to get a complete BCM, RifleGear, Stag Rifle for just 150-200 dollars more than a Del-ton, then I would probably consider the Del-ton a decent buy, but considering you can get a much better rifle for only a little bit more seems the only sensible option. Again, the cost of the rifle is quite minimal when you look at the over all costs for this obsession. Coupled with the fact that I have had bad luck with Del-ton, it is easy for me to not really consider them as a feasible option, like I said, if I could bag one for less than $500otd I would, that would be a decent deal for a cheap backup rifle to let friends shoot or use with a .22 convert. Ultimately though, I like quality, I don't mind paying a little extra even when the difference is only the workmanship, I think the finish product of an item speaks volumes about the internals and process in which it was created, and I have seen some sloppy Del-tons, again, I have seen some sloppy BCMs, Stags, DD etc... but the frequency of the Del-tons is what turns me away from them. Say what you will man, my choice is made, tell your manager that you wont get a sale from me =P. Perhaps I am missing out on the deal of a lifetime with the Del-tons, if so, thats too bad I guess. I'll stick with the brands that I trust.

On another note, I have never really heard of a high round count Del-ton, anyone know of any out there? 20,000+ rounds, I would love to see how they perform at those numbers.



p.s. sorry for the run on sentences and randomly straying from the points. I had a long night and week and I am tired as ****, I did my best to reply as coherently as I could

Cheers

Arisaka
06-29-2011, 7:17 AM
Thanks for the reply. No, I do not work in the firearms industry (I wish). I didn't think I was being defensive, just wanted to add a positive experience with DelTon (there were others doing the same). I was sincerely hoping that someone would break down the shortcomings of DelTon's rifles. Finally, you did. Sorry you took it as baiting, I didn't think that DelTon was getting a fair shake in this thread.

That is all...

Arisaka
06-29-2011, 7:20 AM
Too bad manufacturers don't send rifles to Calguns for review/torture testing. That really would be an awesome addition to the site. Maybe when Del Ton hires me, I can hook it up ;-)

Shenaniguns
06-29-2011, 10:07 AM
I have no opinion on Del-Ton but here's my experience with a new LW DD upper from Smartgunner.


I'm a newb at shooting irons, but here is a post I had on another board:

Had a quick trip to Sac Valley Shooting center this morning to sight in my new upper with the MBUS rear and FSB, I never bothered using the irons on my previous upper since I was lazy and went straight to optics. So I shot only 100 rounds of PMC at 25 and 50 yards since I was time limited and had to qualify 40 minutes away at 1 P.M.

Results with PMC off my backpack at 50 yards:

http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad251/SShenaniguns/9e04d5db.jpg

http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad251/SShenaniguns/37b69e7d.jpg



Specs from previous thread:

I received my new upper tonight and slapped on the rest of the parts, sitting as is with no magazine it weighed in at 6.2 pounds.



http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad251/SShenaniguns/b7555b7e.jpg





DD Lightweight 14.5" CHF barrel and upper

BCM BCG and charging handle

Battlecomp 1.5

Mega lower

Geissele SSA trigger

Moe handguards,grip and stock

Mbus 2

H1 Buffer



Still need a sling and H-1




Observations:
- This sucker is light, even compared to my buddies basic Noveske Carbine.
- The Battlecomp works fantastic! A straight back push and practically no muzzle rise.
- I need to practice without optics for awhile.

krnrspd
06-30-2011, 1:25 AM
Back in the day, I had an Armalite AR15 (rifle length) and fed crappy wolf ammo and reloads in it, boresnakes weren't around and I was lazy about cleaning. Stupid thing jammed constantly.

Fast forward, 10 years later, I got a Del-Ton M4 14.5 style, fed only m855 factory loads. Stripped that sucker down religiously after shooting, had the luxury of boresnakes/clp and haven't had a failure in 2000+ rounds.

I was so impressed, I bought another one and recommended a friend buy another - 0 failures on m855/m193 factory loads. Again, cleaned after a weekend of shooting, lubed with clp and boresnake + clp down the throat.

As far as reliability goes, my del-tons have performed flawlessly. the reliability/accuracy of your ar is probably more a function of A) training; B) ammo; C) care/maintenance and the grey matter between your ears.

my spr clone has all the fancy sabre defense, noveske, fz bcg, ops inc, etc toys but its still just as reliable as my DTis. My groupings are of course really tight, but that's probably more a function of the 18" fluted midlength gas system, 2 stage nm trigger shooting black hills mk262 setup as opposed to a carbine length 14.5" lightweight m4 profile with all std milspec components.

Now, as I understand, ultra tight 1911s, i.e. les baer, dan wesson, ed brown - are all so tight that they often have reliability issues when new, but are exceptionally accurate. I would guess, if an AR manufacturer such as noveske/lmt/etc were to build tight specification ars, they would be extremely accurate, as well, but suffer from the same short comings such as cycling issues - however, you never hear those stories. just food for thought.

gunguy123
07-02-2011, 1:01 AM
As far as reliability goes, my del-tons have performed flawlessly.

Have you taken any carbine classes with your delton? What is the most rounds you have put downrange with it?

javalos
07-02-2011, 7:54 AM
Daniel Defense is a more combat capable rifle hands down, given the choice between a DelTon or a DD in a place like Kandahar, Daniel Defense is a no brainer when my life is on the line. However the degree of dust and sand will give all AR's a challenge to operate, magazine is the key to the rifles reliability as well. If it came to a M-4 Carbine or a Middy, I will go with the Middy to ensure optimum gas/timing reliability, but that's just me after shooting lots of AR's and styles. Currently I think the most practical idea on the market is the Dominator style AR because of its 16" barrel and longer rifle sight radius. If you have older eyes that is the way to go to maintain a clearer sight picture or if you want to achieve optimum accuracy with irons and have a shorter barrel, you get the best of both worlds.

Despite owning Noveske's and BCM's, I do own a few DelTons. I never had an issues with them, they are accurate and reliable, at least for me. I've seen guys take DelTons and put lots of rounds downrange, many of them ammo dumps without a hiccup. Would I trust a DelTon that can do that if the SHTF, no doubt. There is a difference between shooting an AR here in North America versus the Middle East, this side of the world is more forgiving. The key is whatever you own, take it to the range and ensure that it will shoot without an issue while putting it through its paces. Keep only good magazines and mark them, feed only good ammo.

Bobby Hated
07-02-2011, 7:56 AM
some people in here apparently dont understand logic.

"my delton never failed" is what you call anecdotal evidence. that is not valid evidence of anything.

if you are going to use an internet survey to make a decision, the logical thing is to determine which product has more reported problems and choose the other one. at least that makes sense.

anyone who knows anything knows danieal defense makes better quality products than delton.

top tier manufacturers are daniel defense, LMT, BCM, noveske, POF, etc.

S&W is a mid tier manufacturer and delton is a bottom tier manufacturer. you get what you pay for.

Dhena81
07-02-2011, 9:25 AM
I think when you factor in the cost of ammunition to feed any AR over the lifetime of the weapon you can come to the conclusion that the price of the weapon is peanuts compared to that. So after you factor in the cost of the ammo if you can't seem to find the extra couple of hundred to purchase a BCM, DD, LMT, ect your probably buying a gun cabinet princess.

norcal-ar
07-02-2011, 9:47 AM
If you got the funds DD no questions asked.

mif_slim
07-02-2011, 11:05 AM
Have you taken any carbine classes with your delton? What is the most rounds you have put downrange with it?


It all depends, I've seen dd and other high end guns jam during carbine classes...i've also shot a 2 day course with my frankin-AR and another with my SU. My AR jam twice, one was my accidental non-full size brass and the other was short stroke...my SU how-ever ran thru the course with ease. I dripped a drop of oil at about 550 rounds and it was flawless.

My point is, when it's time to jam it'll jam, no matter what gun or operator. It's just mechanics and none will run perfect forever.

blazeaglory
07-02-2011, 11:35 AM
It all depends, I've seen dd and other high end guns jam during carbine classes...i've also shot a 2 day course with my frankin-AR and another with my SU. My AR jam twice, one was my accidental non-full size brass and the other was short stroke...my SU how-ever ran thru the course with ease. I dripped a drop of oil at about 550 rounds and it was flawless.

My point is, when it's time to jam it'll jam, no matter what gun or operator. It's just mechanics and none will run perfect forever.

thats the truth but in the long run DD is a better brand than del-ton. and i own a del-ton upper but i would admit that, as a whole, DD is top tier company.

from what i hear, it seems as if the problem lays with DTI's lower kits. from experience, the couple times i have shot my CMMG with DTI upper, it was smooth. the ammo was ATI 62grn

Skunk2Racer
07-02-2011, 6:21 PM
DD M4V3-LW for ME!

ArkinDomino
07-02-2011, 6:28 PM
I would rather have a stag than a Delton.

magic32
07-02-2011, 9:40 PM
^No you wouldn't....
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=419065&highlight=Stag
Hahahaha...

patriot_man
07-02-2011, 9:41 PM
I would rather have a stag than a Delton.

I would too.

ArkinDomino
07-02-2011, 9:50 PM
LoL! I've been made!

smle-man
07-03-2011, 1:33 PM
Gee, I shot my Del-ton A2 upper and Stag lower again today and nothing bad happened. Everything worked fine, it shot accurately and functioned perfectly. The complete A2 upper with BCG and chrome lined A2 heavy barrel was $475 delivered to my door. I put a patch down the tube, some lubricant on the bolt group and shot it and it worked fine and is still working fine. I'll let you know when it breaks but be prepared to wait because what I've read elsewhere says that they don't.

smle-man
07-04-2011, 3:53 PM
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff237/smle-man/P7040012.jpg

The Stag lower/Del-ton upper: An A2 with a chrome lined HB 1/9 twist. No rails or tacticool add ons. A basic rifle that seems to be working just fine, thanks.

MultiCaliber
07-07-2011, 3:11 PM
I had a bad bolt carrier on a del-ton rifle kit. Was short stroking frequently. Not every round or anything, but often enough to be a problem. I'd only put a couple hundred rounds down the pipe when the problems began.

Now what follows is a glowing recommendation for Del-ton's customer service.

I assembled this rifle and it sat, unused, for months in my safe before I ended up going out to shoot it. And I did a little diagnosis, of which the last step was having a friend of mine who is an armorer for a semi-local law enforcement department take it apart and check it out. Very bad staking on the gas key, the carrier was pretty much ruined. So, about 10 months after I purchased the rifle kit, on which there is a 2-month warranty, del-ton told me to send it back and they would check it out.

They did, gave me a new BCG, and apparently they weren't happy with some other parts as well because it came back with a different barrel and gas block. And all I was out is my time and the dough to ship it. That's pretty impressive customer service. It now shoots beautifully. And several hundred rounds later no problems at all.

I'd still buy another del-ton. Dude a rifle kit for $480? Add chrome lined and customize the furniture, etc, you can still get it done for a few hundred less than the "top tier" guns. Pretty sure any armorer/gunsmith that is doing gas key staking could mess one up from time to time. As far as the barrel/gas block, that may have been damaged when my armorer buddy took the thing apart.

Anyway, OP, get the Daniel Defense. Run an Aimpoint optic. And enjoy shooting $300 worth of ammo monthly out of it. And if you ever need a second AR, one that you can't afford to break the bank on because you shoot the first one so much, try the del-ton kit. With a few upgrades it'll treat you just fine. And if it doesn't, they'll fix it for you.

Good luck.

gunguy123
07-07-2011, 3:59 PM
thanks guys you have all been very helpful. I have purchased a BCM 14.5" carbine upper with a BCM lower. The BCGs from BCM were out of stock so I got a DD BCG. Can't wait to take it to the range!

spoonman03
08-19-2011, 8:08 PM
So just out of curiosity, other than brand name, price and maybe the finish, what is the issue of reliability with del-ton vs DD or BCM? I've seen colts blow up on the range, does that mean they are crap? As far as I know, del-ton kits are all MIL-SPEC parts. I own one, not 1 hiccup. finish is a lil off, but hey, when it comes to protection and what not, finish don't affect none of it. anyone care to enlighten me? please not, ALOT of manufacturers have bad lemons, kimber, springfield ,colt so on. so please why is del-ton worse than these "KNOWN" brands? I'll throw my del-ton up against anybrand.

I think DD was new at one point right? I think it's a placebo thing, the name, higher price and "PRETTIER" the item, the better it is, supposedly.:p

Shenaniguns
08-19-2011, 8:52 PM
Doesn't del-ton use 4140 barrels? That is not mil-spec. 1/9 twist? Who even makes their barrels? What is their bcg made out of? Are they proof tested? Are the barrels marked 5.56? Etc...

NorCalDustin
08-19-2011, 9:28 PM
1000 rounds a month? Go Daniel Defense. :)
Yup yup...

Hell... You can NEVER regret buying a DD.

railroader
08-19-2011, 9:34 PM
Doesn't del-ton use 4140 barrels? That is not mil-spec. 1/9 twist? Who even makes their barrels? What is their bcg made out of? Are they proof tested? Are the barrels marked 5.56? Etc...

I have two del-tons. One has a wilson barrel and one has a mossberg. I think they are making their barrels now. Is there a problem with 1in9 because they have 1in7 too if that's what you want. Both of my barrels say 5.56 nato CL. Their bolts are individually tested now and are made of Carpenter 158 steel what ever that means. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_2_100/203211_Del_Ton_bolts_.html If del-ton barrels are 4140 steel I haven't got a clue. What I will say without comparing my rifles is I am 100% satisfied with them. Both are accurate and reliable with any ammo. Mark

Fictitious Simily
08-19-2011, 9:47 PM
I have a DD M4 V5 and I love it. Quality is outstanding.
+1 for DD

Shenaniguns
08-19-2011, 9:47 PM
I have two del-tons. One has a wilson barrel and one has a mossberg. I think they are making their barrels now. Is there a problem with 1in9 because they have 1in7 too if that's what you want. Both of my barrels say 5.56 nato CL. Their bolts are individually tested now and are made of Carpenter 158 steel what ever that means. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_2_100/203211_Del_Ton_bolts_.html If del-ton barrels are 4140 steel I haven't got a clue. What I will say without comparing my rifles is I am 100% satisfied with them. Both are accurate and reliable with any ammo. Mark

The point is that he claimed it was all mil-spec but it's not. 1/9 is fine if you're purpose is shooting lighter bullets the majority of the time but it's not mil-spec like he thought.

evidens83
08-19-2011, 9:54 PM
Doesn't del-ton use 4140 barrels? That is not mil-spec. 1/9 twist? Who even makes their barrels? What is their bcg made out of? Are they proof tested? Are the barrels marked 5.56? Etc...

4140 or 4150 to us civilians it matters little. They both work. Mil spec doesn't equate to superior. It equates to military standards. 1/9 twist is sufficient for your every day plinker ammo. My DTI barrel was a Wilson barrel. The BCG was half assed staked but it functioned flawlessly. Barrel was marked 5.56

IMHO what differentiates a "lower end" AR like DTI vs a "higher end" AR like DD is quality control. This has been hashed out to death and repeated ad nauseum by the likes of Diesel Power and others. A DTI carbine that shoots 100% of the time is better than a DD carbine that only shoots 70% of the time.

Rebellious
08-20-2011, 12:45 AM
If your two choices are DD and Del then its a no brainer. DD for the win.

spoonman03
08-20-2011, 1:42 AM
my point is, the barrel can be replaced, cheaply if you know where to get it. I said mil-spec because thats what alot of people compare to...i dont care either way, i used colt m-4 in the army, they shoot damn near the same, for half the price, thats all im saying. going back in forth about the barrel is like saying chevys suck because they come with cooper tires? dont know bout the tires, just saying. Have any of you stood side by side cheaper models and fire until one exploded or had issues? All except for barrel and MAYBE the way the metals are forged, what? Just like people say, kimber vs say, GI MIl-SPEC, "oh, kimber all the way, way better finish...but from alot of local dealers, kimbers got sum issues, but still people say, kimber all the way, "they gotta great finish and price tag.

spoonman03
08-20-2011, 2:03 AM
again, other than the "BARREL", why are other makes better? what makes them more reliable? is their something i should know about? like dti will blow up after 10k rds? or will turn into terrorist and kill me? This goes for all guns, i hear, oh the sig 1911 tacops, cuz i researched it, people had issues so they say, its a POS? wth? seems like everyone is stereotypical about products that arent brand names without any SOLID evidence that other than SMALL replaceable things. why are cheaper things inferior? please, an educated on solid argument with back up and please.... more than, "oh, i had a dti and it jammed and no other guns do" sort of thing. And as i said b4, i've seen a sh*t ton of colts, "Army issue," have alot of issues, including explode, was the ammo but hey, it happened, so is it fair to say that colt sucks? though the military is a lowest bidder purchaser, they've proven combat worthy with/without the issues.

Off topic, take KIA for example, when they 1st started, they were cheap, so on....they weren't what we as americans heard of too much and we didnt know them, so the word was and still is to most, kia's are cheap POS'.....now they are making good lookin, cheap cars that rival some of the top brands, so ????????

ZX-10R
08-20-2011, 9:09 AM
Did the OP decide already? If not then he would have not even realized the difference between the two.

gunguy123
08-20-2011, 10:15 AM
Well as I stated before I decided to go with BCM. Still waiting to purchase the lower though. I'm guessing I'll have it assembled halfway through September. I went with a 14.5" Carbine upper with an A2X permanent flash suppressor. Also a BCM BCG. I'm planning on shooting a lot of rounds through it, so we'll see......

spoonman03
08-30-2011, 12:10 PM
funny how no one responded to my posts regarding the actual physical proof determining which one is better in terms of reliability, del-ton or DD. Now other than barrel and finish, these are maybe the only differences. I'm beginning to think that everyone saying DD is so much better says so because they want to justify their purchase. guess its like ford and chevy lovers. A ferrari isn't always better than a ford, but it does cost more...for those who will argue, an 03/04 svt cobra will sometimes smash a ferrari with little to no mods. But ferrari owners will always say they are better; who wants to admit their $300K car just got eaten by a $40K ford?:cool:

http://www.survivalistboards.com/showthread.php?t=104278
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_2_382/207518_Daniel_Defense_M4_V4_Feed_problems.html

RazzB7
08-30-2011, 12:13 PM
funny how no one responded to my posts regarding the actual physical proof determining which one is better in terms of reliability, del-ton or DD. Now other than barrel and finish, these are maybe the only differences. I'm beginning to think that everyone saying DD is so much better says so because they want to justify their purchase. guess its like ford and chevy lovers. A ferrari isn't always better than a ford, but it does cost more...for those who will argue, an 03/04 svt cobra will sometimes smash a ferrari with little to no mods. But ferrari owners will always say they are better; who wants to admit their $300K car just got eaten by a $40K ford?:cool:

http://www.survivalistboards.com/showthread.php?t=104278
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_2_382/207518_Daniel_Defense_M4_V4_Feed_problems.html

Yep, that Cobra will "eat that Ferrari alive". Right up to the point where you have to turn that big round thing in front of you.

Shenaniguns
08-30-2011, 12:23 PM
Yep, that Cobra will "eat that Ferrari alive". Right up to the point where you have to turn that big round thing in front of you.


You mean like when your bolt shatters its lugs??? :p
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=78763&page=2





http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k229/usmcmonty/100_6176.jpg

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k229/usmcmonty/100_6175.jpg

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k229/usmcmonty/100_6174.jpg

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k229/usmcmonty/100_6171.jpg

RazzB7
08-30-2011, 12:26 PM
Man! That's nasty! I assume that's a Del-Ton bolt?

Shenaniguns
08-30-2011, 12:30 PM
Man! That's nasty! I assume that's a Del-Ton bolt?


It is according to the link. Looks like it's some cheap cast junk whoever makes it.

cbsdd00
08-30-2011, 12:37 PM
If you are going to be shooting 1000 rounds a month go with DD. The quality is night and day. Like trying to compare Mercedes to GM. That being said, I have a Delton heavy barrel upper on my kaiser lower with a Magpul mil spec ctr stock. But I only shoot around 50 rounds a month. So for me I didn't need some high end rifle. It works just fine for me and I'm happy with how it turned out.

spoonman03
08-30-2011, 1:17 PM
as far as the cobra vs ferrari analogy, youtube it, i've seen it. NOT UNHEARD OF! point is, the high end is NOT always better,but i guess ferrari is just so much better because, well its a ferrari since thats the kind of answers ya'll give????? and that bolt, yea it sucks, but i've seen colts explode, m249's break,could be ammo, operator error....could be defect, but is the bolt hard to replace? thought you could just drop that right in? could be mistaken, so on that note, every gun part that has defected in the history of all guns sucks, so lets say that ALL weapons are sh*t? they are all cheap and unreliable? can I load sum hot/defective military ammo in ur DD n see if it explodes? and if it does, we have to put them out of business. A DEFECT IS A DEFECT, IT HAPPENS! after all, the PRIUS is still a good car.

spoonman03
08-30-2011, 1:23 PM
hate to tell you but adding a few g's in suspension on a cobra will be more than comparable with top of the line sports cars. Also, not many 1/4 miles have turns, thats how most people settle things with cars, watch pinks....think!

RazzB7
08-30-2011, 1:30 PM
as far as the cobra vs ferrari analogy, youtube it, i've seen it. NOT UNHEARD OF! point is, the high end is NOT always better,but i guess ferrari is just so much better because, well its a ferrari since thats the kind of answers ya'll give????? and that bolt, yea it sucks, but i've seen colts explode, m249's break,could be ammo, operator error....could be defect, but is the bolt hard to replace? thought you could just drop that right in? could be mistaken, so on that note, every gun part that has defected in the history of all guns sucks, so lets say that ALL weapons are sh*t? they are all cheap and unreliable? can I load sum hot/defective military ammo in ur DD n see if it explodes? and if it does, we have to put them out of business. A DEFECT IS A DEFECT, IT HAPPENS! after all, the PRIUS is still a good car.

You really should take a creative writing class.

On a separate note: If 1/4 mile is your thing, stick with the pony cars. If that's what you like, more power to you! I'm glad you're having fun. The roads I drive on every day have corners in them. I prefer a car with a little more all around performance and feel. Your argument for adding "g's" to the Cobra doesn't hold water, because the car that handles better could just as easily add horsepower.

And for the record, I'm not a Ferrari guy (although I have driven them and they're great cars - still overpriced). B

Shenaniguns
08-30-2011, 1:48 PM
Some like to hedge their bet on well built firearms with fantastic warranties and customer service.

Rock_Islander
08-30-2011, 1:57 PM
UPDATE on Del-Ton Bolts:

They have since upgraded to the 158 Carpenter's Steel bolts, that are both HPT/MPI tested and proof fired. 158 is what Mil-Spec calls for and the folks at Del-Ton have made that very important improvement upon their bolt to keep up with the market demands that everyone is crying about, and to curb all the naysayers like the type we see posting on this very thread about Del-Ton's "lack" of quality.

They listened to the consumer, they fixed the "issue" and there you go, you have a top quality bolt coming from them if you order one of their uppers now.

I ordered my midlength upper from them a couple months ago and couldn't be happier, it truly is 158 Carpenter Steel (bolt) just like a Colt, BCM, my Spike's (bolt), or in this case for comparison the Daniel Defense! The bolt I have is also clearly marked HPT/MPI as well for positive identification of their newer bolts.

pacifico23
08-30-2011, 2:09 PM
as far as the cobra vs ferrari analogy, youtube it, i've seen it. NOT UNHEARD OF! point is, the high end is NOT always better,but i guess ferrari is just so much better because, well its a ferrari since thats the kind of answers ya'll give????? and that bolt, yea it sucks, but i've seen colts explode, m249's break,could be ammo, operator error....could be defect, but is the bolt hard to replace? thought you could just drop that right in? could be mistaken, so on that note, every gun part that has defected in the history of all guns sucks, so lets say that ALL weapons are sh*t? they are all cheap and unreliable? can I load sum hot/defective military ammo in ur DD n see if it explodes? and if it does, we have to put them out of business. A DEFECT IS A DEFECT, IT HAPPENS! after all, the PRIUS is still a good car.

Yes please take creative writing classes. So lets say hypothetically, someone lays down two AR's in front of you. You can have one for free, one is a Del-Ton and one is a Daniel Defense....Your going to choose the Del-ton?
Personally after perusing the marketplaces, AR prices, forums blah blah blah. Honestly for 90% of people both will run perfectly fine for their occasional range trips or hunting trips. What I have found, the big thing is the resale value. Any Del-ton builds are rather hard to sell and if they do get sold its at quite a dicount. Not many people are interested in a used del-ton. Ive seen Daniel defenses a couple years old only going for like 100 less than msrp and being sold. Look at the calgunner marketplace, watch how long the Delton builds, CMMG builds, Spikes builds, Stag builds sit there. Unless they are giving a hell of a deal they will have a real hard time selling it.

That wont happen with Daniel Defense. Unless they are overpricing there AR.

ktom300
08-30-2011, 2:20 PM
UPDATE on Del-Ton Bolts:

They have since upgraded to the 158 Carpenter's Steel bolts, that are both HPT/MPI tested and proof fired. 158 is what Mil-Spec calls for and the folks at Del-Ton have made that very important improvement upon their bolt to keep up with the market demands that everyone is crying about, and to curb all the naysayers like the type we see posting on this very thread about Del-Ton's "lack" of quality.

They listened to the consumer, they fixed the "issue" and there you go, you have a top quality bolt coming from them if you order one of their uppers now.

I ordered my midlength upper from them a couple months ago and couldn't be happier, it truly is 158 Carpenter Steel (bolt) just like a Colt, BCM, my Spike's (bolt), or in this case for comparison the Daniel Defense! The bolt I have is also clearly marked HPT/MPI as well for positive identification of their newer bolts.


Curious about this. When did they make the change? Are they replacing newish bolts that were made in the old material?
Pic attached is rounds 11-20 on a new 1/9 DTI Middy. Iron sights in failing light at 100 yrds with walmart 55 grain. For the record I suck with iron sights but wasn't too concerned with this 10 shot grouping.

someR1
08-30-2011, 3:37 PM
Yes please take creative writing classes. So lets say hypothetically, someone lays down two AR's in front of you. You can have one for free, one is a Del-Ton and one is a Daniel Defense....Your going to choose the Del-ton?
Personally after perusing the marketplaces, AR prices, forums blah blah blah. Honestly for 90% of people both will run perfectly fine for their occasional range trips or hunting trips. What I have found, the big thing is the resale value. Any Del-ton builds are rather hard to sell and if they do get sold its at quite a dicount. Not many people are interested in a used del-ton. Ive seen Daniel defenses a couple years old only going for like 100 less than msrp and being sold. Look at the calgunner marketplace, watch how long the Delton builds, CMMG builds, Spikes builds, Stag builds sit there. Unless they are giving a hell of a deal they will have a real hard time selling it.

That wont happen with Daniel Defense. Unless they are overpricing there AR.

Resale doesn't matter when you only paid $600 in the first place :rolleyes:

tacticalcity
08-30-2011, 3:42 PM
Del-Ton is very entry level budget built AR. I've never experienced a problem with them and neither has anyone I know who owns one, but instructors have told me stories about a student of theirs who did. Take that for what it is worth.

Daniel Defense is arguably one of the finest AR brands around. You are not going to have any issues and if you do they'll fix it.

AeroEngi
08-30-2011, 3:47 PM
thanks guys you have all been very helpful. I have purchased a BCM 14.5" carbine upper with a BCM lower. The BCGs from BCM were out of stock so I got a DD BCG. Can't wait to take it to the range!

How about some pics!

Greg Mercurio
08-30-2011, 4:05 PM
Let the rifle do the talking:

http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/z414/Greg_Mercurio/Group1.jpg

Del-Ton upper, 16 inch heavy barrel. Reloads with 25.5 grains of BLC(2), Winchester Bulk 55 gr BTFMJ on a Dillon 550B Nothing special about any of this yet, strangely, it makes groups like this. All. Day. Long.

So what was that question again?

tacticalcity
08-30-2011, 4:16 PM
LaRue, Noveske = Ferarri

Daniel Defense, BCM, LMT, Colt = Hummer

Spikes = Somewhere just below let's say Super-Duty, HD or whatever

CMMG, RRA, Stag, S&W = the average 1/2 ton

The last you got right on lol

Your list is way off. But that is because you cannot really rank brands that way.

People who do so often rank CMMG lower than they should because CMMG offers some entry level uppers as well as high-end uppers (but they like to pretend the high-end stuff does not exist). But even their most entry level upper rivals those made by Spikes.

CMMG is arguably on par with BCM. The offer the same wide range of quality and their products stack up well against each other. BCM fanboys HATE it when you say that, but it is true. ust one example, if you are looking for an upper high-end specs and a pinned and welded
hider then these two brands are the ones to see. If one brand offers it, you'll find the other one does as well. BCM has a better website, which has resulted in better press from the online crowd. CMMG treats dealers better so you are much more likely to see their products in an actual store. But their products stack up well.

Meanwhile the specs on the S&Ws lates have been incredible. Melonite coated 1-8 barrels as a standard option? That is impressive. So sorry, but your list is wrong.

Regardless, brand name is not nearly as important as the specs. And there is not one specific group of specs that is always better than another. Because it depends on the kind of shooting you will be doing.

Just as an example, let's look at barrel types and the kinds of shooters who need each:

Run and Gun CQB Type Shooters would be best served with a chome-lined 1-7 twist (because if you are paying for the lining take the free upgrade in twist rate) barrel. The chrome lining will last a very long time, and on the rare occasion you chose to pony up for match grade ammo it will be able to stabalize it. If you opt for chrome-moly or stainless steel odds are you will be replacing the barrel soon because your high rate and volume of fire will wear it out.

Precision, Competition and Bench Rest Whore Shooters would be well served by a stainless steel 1-8 barrel. The stainless material is soft and can be precisely machined for perfect or near perfect rifling that results in amazing accuracy and the 1-8 twist stabalizes the heavy match grade ammo. The competition guys, even the run and gunners in that world are the only ones in the group likely to wear them out - but that is the price of their sport. The other shooters will be shooting at such a slow rate of fire that they will not damage the barrel.

Plinking a Couple Times a Year Shooters can totally get buy with just a 1-9 chrome-moly barrel and never wear it out. So just about any entry level upper will serve them more than well.

That doesn't even take into account barrel length, or the countless other things that effect how well suited a rifle will be for a specific style of shooting.

Now lets look at what most people do...

Most guys see the Noveske (for example) Brand name and think, that is the best upper because of who makes it. They don't look at the specs. They don't pay attention as to whether or not the barrel (for example) makes sense for their specific style of shooting. So they end up buying an upper that will wear out way too fast, when the upper on the shelf right next to it made by say S&W (for example) would have lasted them a life time and met their needs much better. All because they read online that one is supposedly a better brand than the other.

Nike makes some really great running shoes. Some that retail over $200. But I am not going to want to wear them when running through the surf on the beach. I want flip-flops for that, even if they aren't made by Nike. Same principle applies to rifles. What you buy should match what you use it for.

What did I do?

I prefer running and gunning and really enjoy taking courses that teach that type of shooting. So my primary AR is 100% meant for that type of shooting. It has a CMMG Upper with 1:7 twist chrome lined 14.7" barrel and perm. attached hider. The reduced length suits me well. The lower started off as CMMG, but I got a little careless when upgrading a trigger guard, and I got a hell of deal on the SPIKES lower so I went with it for now. All but one of the many upgrades are things that serve a purpose. Such as cutting down on the amount gas I breath in, or reducing the number of steps in the manual of arms and speeding things up. The only pure ego accessory is the 4-rail handguards. Plastic MOE handguards would do just as well. But I got a deal on them.

My backup AR was meant to be exactly that, a backup. But I felt guilty building it. So I felt I had to justify it buy giving it a duel purpose...precision shooting. I also bought it one part at time of the period of an entire year. Proving you can build a high-end rifle without breaking the bank. A few of the parts are dealer samples and stuff I got for free - but all are excellent quality. Since I much prefer running and gunning, I insisted on no longer than a 16" barrel. However, since it is a backup and unlikely to be used and abused like my primary, I went ahead and added a stainless 1-8 barrel for the precise rifling that adds to accuracy when shooting match grade ammo. Not something I would have done on my primary, but something I felt was needed to meet the duel purpose requirement of a precision AR. The long extended handguards help protect the barrel when running and gunning and ensure that even if it gets knocked around a little it will maintain zero. So in this case, that choice served a purpose. I am still saving up for a decent optic. They cost as much as the rifle, which was very pricey, I am in no hurry however.

I am not saying I have the best rifles in the world. I am just saying, I thought about more than the brand names. I built each one to meet a specific need that I actually had. I put some actual thought into them. Which is what I recommend doing. Your rifle will probably be very different than mine and everyone elses, because we all have different needs and priorities. That is the great thing about the AR, no shortage of things to do when building one.

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh183/tacticalcity/Updated_Collection.jpg

kozumasbullitt
08-30-2011, 5:08 PM
I guess I will say it over like in past threads but DD is not trying to rip people off. They use quality materials and have quality craftsmanship with good QC. When you go for the budget brands, they skimp wherever they can to save money to pass on to the customer but at the same time they sacrifice quality materials, craftsmanship and QC.

kozumasbullitt
08-30-2011, 5:14 PM
Your list is way off. But that is because you cannot really rank brands that way.

People who do so often rank CMMG lower than they should because CMMG offers some entry level uppers as well as high-end uppers (but they like to pretend the high-end stuff does not exist). But even their most entry level upper rivals those made by Spikes.

CMMG is arguably on par with BCM. The offer the same wide range of quality and their products stack up well against each other. BCM fanboys HATE it when you say that, but it is true. ust one example, if you are looking for an upper high-end specs and a pinned and welded
hider then these two brands are the ones to see. If one brand offers it, you'll find the other one does as well. BCM has a better website, which has resulted in better press from the online crowd. CMMG treats dealers better so you are much more likely to see their products in an actual store. But their products stack up well.

Meanwhile the specs on the S&Ws lates have been incredible. Melonite coated 1-8 barrels as a standard option? That is impressive. So sorry, but your list is wrong.

Regardless, brand name is not nearly as important as the specs. And there is not one specific group of specs that is always better than another. Because it depends on the kind of shooting you will be doing.

Just as an example, let's look at barrel types and the kinds of shooters who need each:

Run and Gun CQB Type Shooters would be best served with a chome-lined 1-7 twist (because if you are paying for the lining take the free upgrade in twist rate) barrel. The chrome lining will last a very long time, and on the rare occasion you chose to pony up for match grade ammo it will be able to stabalize it. If you opt for chrome-moly or stainless steel odds are you will be replacing the barrel soon because your high rate and volume of fire will wear it out.

Precision, Competition and Bench Rest Whore Shooters would be well served by a stainless steel 1-8 barrel. The stainless material is soft and can be precisely machined for perfect or near perfect rifling that results in amazing accuracy and the 1-8 twist stabalizes the heavy match grade ammo. The competition guys, even the run and gunners in that world are the only ones in the group likely to wear them out - but that is the price of their sport. The other shooters will be shooting at such a slow rate of fire that they will not damage the barrel.

Plinking a Couple Times a Year Shooters can totally get buy with just a 1-9 chrome-moly barrel and never wear it out. So just about any entry level upper will serve them more than well.

That doesn't even take into account barrel length, or the countless other things that effect how well suited a rifle will be for a specific style of shooting.

Now lets look at what most people do...

Most guys see the Noveske (for example) Brand name and think, that is the best upper because of who makes it. They don't look at the specs. They don't pay attention as to whether or not the barrel (for example) makes sense for their specific style of shooting. So they end up buying an upper that will wear out way too fast, when the upper on the shelf right next to it made by say S&W (for example) would have lasted them a life time and met their needs much better. All because they read online that one is supposedly a better brand than the other.

Nike makes some really great running shoes. Some that retail over $200. But I am not going to want to wear them when running through the surf on the beach. I want flip-flops for that, even if they aren't made by Nike. Same principle applies to rifles. What you buy should match what you use it for.

What did I do?

I prefer running and gunning and really enjoy taking courses that teach that type of shooting. So my primary AR is 100% meant for that type of shooting. It has a CMMG Upper with 1:7 twist chrome lined 14.7" barrel and perm. attached hider. The reduced length suits me well. The lower started off as CMMG, but I got a little careless when upgrading a trigger guard, and I got a hell of deal on the SPIKES lower so I went with it for now. All but one of the many upgrades are things that serve a purpose. Such as cutting down on the amount gas I breath in, or reducing the number of steps in the manual of arms and speeding things up. The only pure ego accessory is the 4-rail handguards. Plastic MOE handguards would do just as well. But I got a deal on them.

My backup AR was meant to be exactly that, a backup. But I felt guilty building it. So I felt I had to justify it buy giving it a duel purpose...precision shooting. I also bought it one part at time of the period of an entire year. Proving you can build a high-end rifle without breaking the bank. A few of the parts are dealer samples and stuff I got for free - but all are excellent quality. Since I much prefer running and gunning, I insisted on no longer than a 16" barrel. However, since it is a backup and unlikely to be used and abused like my primary, I went ahead and added a stainless 1-8 barrel for the precise rifling that adds to accuracy when shooting match grade ammo. Not something I would have done on my primary, but something I felt was needed to meet the duel purpose requirement of a precision AR. The long extended handguards help protect the barrel when running and gunning and ensure that even if it gets knocked around a little it will maintain zero. So in this case, that choice served a purpose. I am still saving up for a decent optic. They cost as much as the rifle, which was very pricey, I am in no hurry however.

I am not saying I have the best rifles in the world. I am just saying, I thought about more than the brand names. I built each one to meet a specific need that I actually had. I put some actual thought into them. Which is what I recommend doing. Your rifle will probably be very different than mine and everyone elses, because we all have different needs and priorities. That is the great thing about the AR, no shortage of things to do when building one.

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh183/tacticalcity/Updated_Collection.jpg

I agree with buying the rifle that fits your need but a Noveske barrel will outlast most even in their SS configuration. When you are paying for Noveske, you are paying for a name brand that does not accept anything but excellence and uses top tier parts to get the job done. I categorize Ars in low, middle and top tier and when you settle for the budget brand, you will usually end up spending more money in the end.

Dhena81
08-30-2011, 8:58 PM
DD :troll:

spoonman03
08-30-2011, 9:30 PM
well 1st off, those of you who are focused on creative writing, you are the ones who are too damn picky and need everything to be pretty and concise. guess thats why ur all about the HIGH class things? case and point as far as i'm concerned. As far as the whole car analogy, a $40k ford with a few grand in suspension can keep up with high ends $300k cars, that is if people like you AREN'T behind that round thing. The whole Del-ton vs DD? whatever, if they fixed their problem due to consumer feedback, then good for them and i guess they'll fix all issues with their guns. The whole "del-ton and DD free, which one would u pick?" Really? Like saying if someone offered you a free ford or a free ferrari, i'd take the ferrari, sell it and buy sum stuff! Point is, NO one here can justify their argument of why DD is so much better other than small stuff, barrel, finish? so until you can come out and say hey, del tons fail after so many rounds or they turn into a decepticon, then you just sound stupid to say, "oh, DD is so much better" no reason other than its prettier...so as i take my "CREATIVE" writing class, do sum research to back your stuff up kids. I dont have anything negative to say about DD, never shot 1, i've shot sum top of the line guns that had issues, doesn't mean they are less reliable than others.

kozumasbullitt
08-30-2011, 9:41 PM
Yes please take creative writing classes. So lets say hypothetically, someone lays down two AR's in front of you. You can have one for free, one is a Del-Ton and one is a Daniel Defense....Your going to choose the Del-ton?
Personally after perusing the marketplaces, AR prices, forums blah blah blah. Honestly for 90% of people both will run perfectly fine for their occasional range trips or hunting trips. What I have found, the big thing is the resale value. Any Del-ton builds are rather hard to sell and if they do get sold its at quite a dicount. Not many people are interested in a used del-ton. Ive seen Daniel defenses a couple years old only going for like 100 less than msrp and being sold. Look at the calgunner marketplace, watch how long the Delton builds, CMMG builds, Spikes builds, Stag builds sit there. Unless they are giving a hell of a deal they will have a real hard time selling it.

That wont happen with Daniel Defense. Unless they are overpricing there AR.

I must be overpricing my upper because it's not moving and it's DD. I think it is a great time to buy used because prices are down and people are not spending.

freonr22
08-30-2011, 10:01 PM
Lmt ftw

gmcal
08-30-2011, 10:02 PM
Lmt ftw

cause they cryo their barrels :)

freonr22
08-30-2011, 10:57 PM
Gmcal u r write ;) just had to represent...

Cyc Wid It
08-31-2011, 2:27 AM
If you ask people who have attended real classes or look around the review threads, you'll notice that nobody runs Del-Tons. On the third day of the full moon you might see a Stag. All depends on what you want to do.

javalos
08-31-2011, 6:52 AM
DelTon is offering a 16" M4 1x7 CMV Chrome Lined Barrel Assembly for $379.00 each, normally $460.00 saving you $81.00. These feature Chrome Lined Chrome Moly Vanadium Barrels, MP/HP Tested Bolts, F-Marked Front Sight Base and M4 Feed Ramps. Each one is built to order, head-spaced, test fired and quality controlled before shipping. To check it out, here's the link: https://www.del-ton.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=DT1028

My two cents on whether you should get a DelTon vs. Daniel Defense depends on what kind of shooting you will do and how much of it. If recreational and a rifle to protect the family in case of an emergency, DelTon will do just fine. If you plan on taking a carbine class and plan to do hard tactical training and ammo dumps, then go with Daniel Defense. The key to an AR's durability is the barrel, Daniel Defense barrels are MIL-B-11595E grade, DelTon isn't. However I own a variety of AR grade rifles from Noveske to DelTon and I can tell you I like DelTon, never had an issue, they zero just fine, are accurate, and are reliable, as least for me. My Middy DelTon can produce 1.5 MOA groups at 100 yards. I would say that is more than acceptable. Keep in mind, things like chrome lined chambers, chrome lined barrels, and M-4 feed ramps were originally made for overseas service rifles that are selective fire (automatic) and made to be reliable in harsh conditions in the field. Since your not in a dusty and gritty fire base in Afghanistan and expecting to hold off a 3 day attempt to be over ran by Taliban fighters, a DelTon here in the states will do okay. Its all up to you.

ZX-10R
08-31-2011, 7:09 AM
Let the rifle do the talking:

http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/z414/Greg_Mercurio/Group1.jpg

Del-Ton upper, 16 inch heavy barrel. Reloads with 25.5 grains of BLC(2), Winchester Bulk 55 gr BTFMJ on a Dillon 550B Nothing special about any of this yet, strangely, it makes groups like this. All. Day. Long.

So what was that question again?

Were you aiming at bulls? Because if you were, you were way off. :D Great group but way low.

smle-man
08-31-2011, 8:41 AM
Still shooting my hybrid A2 Delton-Stag with chrome lined barrel with no problems. Worked fine right out of the box and is still working fine. I'll let you know if it fails but don't wait up for it to happen because it doesn't seem like it will.

EvolutionGSR
08-31-2011, 8:55 AM
Let the rifle do the talking:

http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/z414/Greg_Mercurio/Group1.jpg

Del-Ton upper, 16 inch heavy barrel. Reloads with 25.5 grains of BLC(2), Winchester Bulk 55 gr BTFMJ on a Dillon 550B Nothing special about any of this yet, strangely, it makes groups like this. All. Day. Long.

So what was that question again?

I guess my first question would be....at what distance?:D

coyotebait
08-31-2011, 8:58 AM
I guess my first question would be....at what distance?:D

...and irons or optics?

Lead Waster
08-31-2011, 11:39 AM
1000 rounds of .223 is about $300 if you can get it for $6/20. If you don't shoot this month and the next, you'll have $600 to put into the better quality upper.

Lead Waster
08-31-2011, 11:43 AM
Hey Tacticalcity, that coffee table (with the magazines under it) sure make for a confusing picture!

Norsemen308
08-31-2011, 11:56 AM
Here's what I ended up realizing after I did my research. This is all just a subjective opinion that may be shared by others

LaRue, DD, Noveske, LMT = Benz,BMW,Porsche,Cadillac <over priced oil leaking pigs that are expensive to fix

CMMG, BCM,Stag, Rockriver Arms, Spikes, = Chevy, Ford,Dodge < have horrible cooling problems, trannies go out at 100,000 miles, costly repair costs over life of the vehicle

del-ton, DPMS, Chiappas = KIA, Hyundai(the early years)... etc. <cheap vehicle that runs well up to about 150,000

sorry... must be the service writer in me...

find it hysterical you place the DPMS's at the bottom of the list.. anyways... Get the Daniels Defense if your thinking of either one and you can afford it, I tell friends this, by the gun you can afford, if you Buy a Daniels Defense you will not be doing anything to that gun, it will run flawlessly... same with a Delton... the difference is on a delton your going to more inclined to make the gun yours changing barrels, or fore arms or stocks, down the way, or save up to buy a piston gas system on another ar. just look at this real quick I just picked up a dpms oracle, its a good base ar, out the door with dross 780. I then spent another 220 bucks on a picanny rail carbine fore-arm, yankee hill flip up sights and i still plan on adding a ctr stock. Now account if I would have bought a Daniels defense I wouldnt have had to add those on as must come equipped with sights and picanny rails and ctr stocks. but my gun didnt run 1400+ either.... I own a Daniels Defense, I love the gun, runs flawlessly, you can feel subtle differences between my dpms, dd and cmmg. Many guys will jump on and tell you how the piston system is far superior, which it is, but ill tell you i have not had a short stroke, a Failure to fire/load with any of my regular gas AR's. If you where to tell me your going to buy just one AR for your gun safe, go Daniels and never look back... if you want to buy something to customize and make your own get one of the lower price ones and have a blast!!!

spoonman03
09-15-2011, 1:52 AM
sorry... must be the service writer in me...

find it hysterical you place the DPMS's at the bottom of the list.. anyways... Get the Daniels Defense if your thinking of either one and you can afford it, I tell friends this, by the gun you can afford, if you Buy a Daniels Defense you will not be doing anything to that gun, it will run flawlessly... same with a Delton... the difference is on a delton your going to more inclined to make the gun yours changing barrels, or fore arms or stocks, down the way, or save up to buy a piston gas system on another ar. just look at this real quick I just picked up a dpms oracle, its a good base ar, out the door with dross 780. I then spent another 220 bucks on a picanny rail carbine fore-arm, yankee hill flip up sights and i still plan on adding a ctr stock. Now account if I would have bought a Daniels defense I wouldnt have had to add those on as must come equipped with sights and picanny rails and ctr stocks. but my gun didnt run 1400+ either.... I own a Daniels Defense, I love the gun, runs flawlessly, you can feel subtle differences between my dpms, dd and cmmg. Many guys will jump on and tell you how the piston system is far superior, which it is, but ill tell you i have not had a short stroke, a Failure to fire/load with any of my regular gas AR's. If you where to tell me your going to buy just one AR for your gun safe, go Daniels and never look back... if you want to buy something to customize and make your own get one of the lower price ones and have a blast!!!






The delton MOE rifles are great, already full of magpul furntiture, luv mine. The handguard accepts the magpul rail inserts so u can mount anything anywhere.