PDA

View Full Version : Final Verdict on AR-15 Weapons System


Inquirer
06-23-2011, 12:51 AM
So, I've been into guns for a number of years, and since I got into them the ever-present debate has been which rifle platform is superior - the AR or the AK. However, I'm not interested in comparing Apples to Oranges. They're different philosophies that mandate the use of each weapon system, so I'm not interested in picking which is better.

What I want to know is if the AR-15 system gets the blessing of the Special Forces that use them regularly, and know exactly what it is they're depending on to confirm kills and get home safely.
http://www.theshootersbox.com/store/images/firearms/stag_arms_ar15_model1.jpg

A SEAL buddy of mine is actually jazzed over the 7.62x51 AR Uppers, but from what I understand he uses M4s in the field. Part of the reason I'm writing is because the operators I know are increasingly seeking a harder-hitting caliber.

So basically, the premise of this thread is this - is the AR-15 a truly suitable combat weapon? We all know it's accurate, but it's fragility is a downside. Is a Piston AR the happy medium between the two? The lack of a standardized Piston system for ARs is a drawback. I do know most of the SEAL's buddies/teammates are using the HK 416 and 417, and that that's the gun that killed UBL. But I'm not too concerned with which gun killed who. I'm wondering if, properly maintained, the DI AR is the be all and end all of combat arms, or if the solution is a piston AR or, say, the next generation of modern small arms such as the SCAR or the ACR.

Basically, is the AR actually a great platform, or is it merely a popular one? And of the AR subgenres, what barrel length, twist, and set-up is the best all-around kill them all, stay standing configuration purely for a fighting system.

Hope I don't incite an AR-AK debate, but any and all opinions - especially first-hand combat opinions - are welcome. Philosophy of use, specs, wound channels, reliability, maintenance, downsides, nuances, history, FTFs, accuracy, penetration, etc. are all factors for the verdicts, so please, feel free to chime in with any comments about any particular aspect. If you think piston ARs are the future, tell us! Just make sure you back it up!

Basically, I want to hear what the case is for the AR system.

And on a side note, is an RR 20-inch a viable option for a mobile operator set-up, or is 16-inch the standard? And what is the criteria that differentiates one brand from another in terms of quality?

Anybody with sense or cents to contribute - chime in. This is just a thread to hear what you all think, especially those of you with extended combat experience. Anybody with a military background automatically gets elevated for credibility, but anybody who runs courses is welcome to chime in too.

Note: I'm not talking about bench rest accuracy, I'm talking about returning fire in a hostile situation - should the properly-maintained AR be trusted with your life, or are those who depend on it wishing for a better solution?

Hope to hear from all of you.

All the Best, as usual.

--Inq

pyro3k2
06-23-2011, 1:31 AM
AR's and AK's are tools, you pick the appropraite tool for the job. You don't use a hammer when you need a knife and same for the reverse. From what you desribe it sounds like you are looking for an 18inch barreled AR in 7.62x39/6.8/6.5. Make your AR for your needs. To answer some of your other points, even though I am very far into the AK camp. The AR platform is a good proven rifle with a good service record thats just not for me.

Military experience shouldn't give credibility automatically unless we are talking about very specif things about military service. If you are talking about combat, then yes, but i've seen combat and I can tell you there are some people on this site that make me look like a novice on an AR. Don't discount good quality people just because they have never been shot at for their country. Besides not everyone in the military gets to see action and become these fabled "operators".

pyro3k2
06-23-2011, 1:33 AM
oah and nothing is final, just when you think it is some one some where will invent something new for the AR system.

dieselpower
06-23-2011, 3:53 AM
give me a break... why do gun guys obsess over things like this...

analogy...
A few professional race car driver's pit crew used a MAC screwdriver to adjust a hose clamp and now every idiot guy at home needs that screwdriver he saw on TV....the crew man couldn't care F-ing less what he used...yet 11teen billion goofballs do.

analogy....
I own a company that is responsible to do X. To do X my employees need Y. I need to buy a butt load of Ys and can't bankrupt myself doing it...so I buy "Z brand" Ys to give to my 11teen billion employees...now every little boy who dreams of working for me thinks Z brand Ys are the best...LOL

wake up and smell the coffee....
A tool is a Tool. Its used to complete a job. Your tool selection is determined by your skill and skill set when its applied to that job. The AR15, the M4, the MP5, the AK, the AKM, the FAL, the SKS, the Gali..they are all the same thing.

The AR15 platform has one advantage over all others...it can be configured like the others and fire their ammo. Other firearms have that ability too. Its just not as easy in many cases.

and just to toss some real world experience into the mix... Unless you are in a SEAL team, what your SEAL buddy says is worthless to you. You get a lot of idiots in the Military who don't realize their opinions, their training, their knowledge base, they instinct, their skill set is 100% worthless as a civilian without the Military backing them up.

If you train like a SEAL...you are going to fail. If you ask a SEAL his opinion on weapon choice you are going to fail. SEALs act in a set pattern because they are taught to do that knowing that a process exist to support that pattern....YOU do not have that pattern or process to back you, therefore its a complete failure if you use that set pattern in your life.

It takes a while for the new AR15 and new AK47 owners to realize these facts..some never do. Its a "fail" of logic...its a "fail" of real world skills when guys can not move away from the black ops video game mentality or the Hollywood actor image of the Military. Some people have figured out they can make BANK selling the "fail" to the guys who haven't realized it yet.

GM4spd
06-23-2011, 4:58 AM
The DI system is going to be a thing of the past for the military, I
forsee our own military being equipped with a piston system like the
SIG 516 or an HK system. This isn't a bad thing. Pete

ZX-10R
06-23-2011, 5:39 AM
Get an AK and an AR...Which ever one never leaves your bag is the worst gun of the two. It's called preference.

21SF
06-23-2011, 6:05 AM
AK vs AR Thread !!!!

Ill stick to my pack a punched ray gun when the zombies come....

zfields
06-23-2011, 8:14 AM
give me a break... why do gun guys obsess over things like this...

analogy...
A few professional race car driver's pit crew used a MAC screwdriver to adjust a hose clamp and now every idiot guy at home needs that screwdriver he saw on TV....the crew man couldn't care F-ing less what he used...yet 11teen billion goofballs do.

analogy....
I own a company that is responsible to do X. To do X my employees need Y. I need to buy a butt load of Ys and can't bankrupt myself doing it...so I buy "Z brand" Ys to give to my 11teen billion employees...now every little boy who dreams of working for me thinks Z brand Ys are the best...LOL

wake up and smell the coffee....
A tool is a Tool. Its used to complete a job. Your tool selection is determined by your skill and skill set when its applied to that job. The AR15, the M4, the MP5, the AK, the AKM, the FAL, the SKS, the Gali..they are all the same thing.

The AR15 platform has one advantage over all others...it can be configured like the others and fire their ammo. Other firearms have that ability too. Its just not as easy in many cases.

and just to toss some real world experience into the mix... Unless you are in a SEAL team, what your SEAL buddy says is worthless to you. You get a lot of idiots in the Military who don't realize their opinions, their training, their knowledge base, they instinct, their skill set is 100% worthless as a civilian without the Military backing them up.

If you train like a SEAL...you are going to fail. If you ask a SEAL his opinion on weapon choice you are going to fail. SEALs act in a set pattern because they are taught to do that knowing that a process exist to support that pattern....YOU do not have that pattern or process to back you, therefore its a complete failure if you use that set pattern in your life.

It takes a while for the new AR15 and new AK47 owners to realize these facts..some never do. Its a "fail" of logic...its a "fail" of real world skills when guys can not move away from the black ops video game mentality or the Hollywood actor image of the Military. Some people have figured out they can make BANK selling the "fail" to the guys who haven't realized it yet.

thank you....


these threads are getting ridiculous. I hope on over to the texas gun forums, and so much less of this crap : /

chicoredneck
06-23-2011, 9:03 AM
I am not nor have ever been in the military nor do I pride myself as an expert. This is my opinion and nothing more.

The military and country as a whole does not have the financial means to invest and re-tool the military to a new rifle platform for the entire military presently. When our operations in Afghanistan and Iraq cease, then the military may take a serious look at a new cartridge or firearm for the armed forces.

I believe that any true development and adoption of a new firearm is going to have to show a major improvement over the current m16/m4 in use. The military has been looking for a new rifle system for over 30 years now and they always come to the same conclusion: the new firearms presented simply don't show enough of an improvement over the current m16/m4 to warrant the cost of full replacement of the m16.

The military has also shown that it is interested in a new cartridge, however this is also a challenge as switching calibers may have potential political fallout with our allies as well as the cost or re-tooling and production.

Our nation is simply not in a position at the moment to spend the funds for a new system. I suspect that we will not see the full scale adoption of a replacement rifle for the m16/m4 for quite some time and when it does happen it may or may not include a new caliber. We are seeing the small scale adoption of different rifles for the special forces, but I suspect that that is all we will see.

Other than advancements in materials and propellents, firearms technology has really been stalled for the last 50 years when it comes to major advancements. But, when a major advancement comes, if our nation has the funds, we will make the change. If we don't our competitor nations will.

chicoredneck
06-23-2011, 9:11 AM
The AR platforms ability to be easily adapted to mission specifics has also aided its longevity on the battlefield and will do so in the near future.

I can speak of the AR from a purely hunting standpoint and will tell you that it is a fantastic rifle for this purpose and hope to see it become the new "bolt action" of our generation. As to the effectiveness of the 223/556 from what I have seen it is severely underrated. I have seen fmj 556 ammo nearly blow a rabbit in half where as fmj 7.62x39 ammo zips through and leaves a nice neat hole with minimal tissue damage.

I own several AR's and an Ak and like both platforms and they both have their merrits.

Inquirer
06-23-2011, 9:18 AM
To the guys upset about this post - I think you may be misunderstanding the point of the thread. I'm not asking which is better, as evidenced in the first line of my post:
Since I got into them the ever-present debate has been which rifle platform is superior - the AR or the AK. However, I'm not interested in comparing Apples to Oranges. They're different philosophies that mandate the use of each weapon system, so I'm not interested in picking which is better.

Hope I don't incite an AR-AK debate, but any and all opinions - especially first-hand combat opinions - are welcome.

The point of the thread was to formulate what would basically be an article about the merits and demerits of the AR-15 as an individual weapon using the collective knowledge of the forums; kind of like a Wikipedia article. Things that are good about the system, like its accuracy and ergonomics, and things that are bad about it. Common pitfalls, like timing issues arising from barrel length or jams from running the weapon dry. First hand accounts of use, operation, maintenance, bugs, etc.

Again, I'm not even concerned with posts mentioning the AK, I just want to hear your thoughts about the AR-15 - likes and dislikes, bad and good. Opinions on whether DI is here to stay or Pistons are the future. Anecdotes about which manufacturers are good and which ones you should avoid. Kind of a be all and end all AR thread so when somebody's considering buying one, they'll know exactly what they're getting into. Only it'll be written by everybody.

That's all I was attempting to do, so please try to curb the frustration when you're missing the point of the article. That said, anybody's considerations and thoughts are welcome, especially if they pertain to AR15s.

Respectfully,

--Inq

zfields
06-23-2011, 9:27 AM
here is litterly everything you need to know about what is good and bad on an AR

http://forums.officer.com/showthread.php?81462-So-you-want-to-buy-an-AR-15-huh

rodeoflyer
06-23-2011, 9:33 AM
I'd love to see some of these people that beat dead horses all day in the bread aisle at the market. It's a ****ing wonder they ever pick a loaf and buy it. :rolleyes:

H2O MAN
06-23-2011, 9:34 AM
I have owned and sold off many AR rifles over the
last 30 years and I finally found one that I will be keeping.

http://i895.photobucket.com/albums/ac160/The_H2O_MAN/AR-100 DAEWOO/IMG_4103.jpg

That's my final verdict on the AR.

chicoredneck
06-23-2011, 9:36 AM
To the guys upset about this post - I think you may be misunderstanding the point of the thread. I'm not asking which is better, as evidenced in the first line of my post:




The point of the thread was to formulate what would basically be an article about the merits and demerits of the AR-15 as an individual weapon using the collective knowledge of the forums; kind of like a Wikipedia article. Things that are good about the system, like its accuracy and ergonomics, and things that are bad about it. Common pitfalls, like timing issues arising from barrel length or jams from running the weapon dry. First hand accounts of use, operation, maintenance, bugs, etc.

Again, I'm not even concerned with posts mentioning the AK, I just want to hear your thoughts about the AR-15 - likes and dislikes, bad and good. Opinions on whether DI is here to stay or Pistons are the future. Anecdotes about which manufacturers are good and which ones you should avoid. Kind of a be all and end all AR thread so when somebody's considering buying one, they'll know exactly what they're getting into. Only it'll be written by everybody.

That's all I was attempting to do, so please try to curb the frustration when you're missing the point of the article. That said, anybody's considerations and thoughts are welcome, especially if they pertain to AR15s.

Respectfully,

--Inq


At leat in the civilian world the DI system is hear to stay for a loooong time. As I posted above I don't see the military making any major changes anytime soon either.

I have put many thousands of rounds through AR's and am currently in the process of marketing and developing AR's in alternate calibers for hunting purposes. I can say that the ease at which the AR can be customized to an individuals specific needs is a major benefit of the AR and is revolutionizing/influencing any modern attempts at developing a replacement for the m16/m4. It is also very easy to do any kind of gunsmithing on an AR compared to any other auto loading rifle that I know of.

It's operation is simple (not as simple as some other rifles, but relatively speaking it is simple) and easy to learn and maintain. It can be made relatively inexpensively to shoot just as accurate as the best bolt guns. It has excellent and natural ergonomics.

On the down side everyone knows that it can be sensitive to fowling and the magazine well limits the length of the cartridges that can be adapted to it's use. Forging the recivers is also an expensive way of manufacturing when compared to metal stampings, but provides increased rigidity to the sytem.

chicoredneck
06-23-2011, 9:42 AM
I have owned and sold off many AR rifles over the
last 30 years and I finally found one that I will be keeping.

http://i895.photobucket.com/albums/ac160/The_H2O_MAN/AR-100 DAEWOO/IMG_4103.jpg

That's my final verdict on the AR.
The funny thing about the daewoo, scar, acr, kel-tec su-16, ar18, fn fnc, and others is they are all different and yet so similar in their design. They all are a hybrid of the AR and AK gas and bolt sytem to varying degrees.

NiteQwill
06-23-2011, 10:13 AM
The amount of questions the OP states contributes to the failure of this thread (ranging from AR effectiveness to use in the field).

Unless this is an attempt to create some qualitative research study, this topic is as worse as the SHTF threads.

Inquirer
06-23-2011, 10:46 AM
NiteQ- Maybe too much criteria was my undoing. I was hoping that everybody would chip in a little bit of knowledge - "Rifle length gas systems get the fewest FTEs," or "Bushmaster's piston system is prone to breakage," "ARs can run dirty but not dry," etc. Just people giving their two cents on the rifle as a whole, not some chastisement of AR-VS-AK threads - which this isn't. But I guess it is generally easier to tell someone they're wrong for asking a question than to give them a good answer.

The point of the thread was -

On its Own, What's Great About the AR-15 System?
What are some common problems?
How do you avoid said problems?
How do you keep your AR Happy?
What are brands to avoid?
Is a piston system really the evolution of the weapon?
What are parts that tend to fail?
What are some costly and easily avoided mistakes when building one?

That was my intent. I definitely didn't want to open the thread up to people *****ing about how I should shut up because guns are tools and they're all the same and that military skillsets are useless to civies, yadda yadda yadda. Those answers didn't even correlate to the original post.

zfields
06-23-2011, 10:53 AM
this thread has been done so many times over, in so many variations. If you want to try to compile something, do the research, search the threads, and put it together.. Rehashing the entire argument is not going to work as you can see.

chicoredneck
06-23-2011, 11:04 AM
NiteQ- Maybe too much criteria was my undoing. I was hoping that everybody would chip in a little bit of knowledge - "Rifle length gas systems get the fewest FTEs," or "Bushmaster's piston system is prone to breakage," "ARs can run dirty but not dry," etc. Just people giving their two cents on the rifle as a whole, not some chastisement of AR-VS-AK threads - which this isn't. But I guess it is generally easier to tell someone they're wrong for asking a question than to give them a good answer.

The point of the thread was -

On its Own, What's Great About the AR-15 System? adaptability/versatility
What are some common problems? fowling from cheap ammunition especially russian / old, worn magazines
How do you avoid said problems? lube and buy better ammo
How do you keep your AR Happy? lubricant and quality magazines
What are brands to avoid? I haven't had a bad brand
Is a piston system really the evolution of the weapon? it's an adaptation to a prceived defficiency. I don't see the military adopting a piston AR as it's primary arm.
What are parts that tend to fail? magazines are the #1 cause of failures and they have a shelf life. extractors have been known to break from time to time, but not much of an issue
What are some costly and easily avoided mistakes when building one?
shoot some of your freinds and hold several differnet styles before you buy one. Too often I see guys buying heavy bull barrel rifles for a plinking gun because they want acuracy. All they end up with is a pig of a gun that they don't shoot from the bench like it was meant to be and therfore they don't get any of its accuracy potential. The greatest attribute of the AR system is it's adaptability and versatility so by one that fits your needs
That was my intent. I definitely didn't want to open the thread up to people *****ing about how I should shut up because guns are tools and they're all the same and that military skillsets are useless to civies, yadda yadda yadda. Those answers didn't even correlate to the original post.

^^^^

23 Blast
06-23-2011, 11:14 AM
Why so many haters?

It's as if, on a car forum, someone asking "What's better - a Honda Civic, or a Toyota Corolla?"

Then you have all these wet blankets going "Gawd, as if this question hasn't been asked 12 gajukillion times already!!!" "Yeah - questions like these should result in a permaban!" "F-ing troll!" "Damn noobs!" "Get outta here with that troll question, you troll!!!"

sheesh. It's an Internet forum. If the thread topic makes you roll your eyes, it's pretty simple to just not post a reply, isn't it? I wonder if 13-year old girls treat each other this way in a "who's cuter, Robert Pattinson, or Justin Bieber?" thread.

green grunt
06-23-2011, 11:22 AM
I Love the the SHTF stuff........such fun reading......I'd be lost with out them...;)

don't want to read them...don't....your choice...but to block people becuse "you" don't want to read em'.........sounds abit like Govt. control don't it......

this is a great site , and i've learned much and get good info from here.......I'm glad to be here.

let it be.

pyro3k2
06-23-2011, 11:25 AM
NiteQ- Maybe too much criteria was my undoing. I was hoping that everybody would chip in a little bit of knowledge - "Rifle length gas systems get the fewest FTEs," or "Bushmaster's piston system is prone to breakage," "ARs can run dirty but not dry," etc. Just people giving their two cents on the rifle as a whole, not some chastisement of AR-VS-AK threads - which this isn't. But I guess it is generally easier to tell someone they're wrong for asking a question than to give them a good answer.

The point of the thread was -

On its Own, What's Great About the AR-15 System?
What are some common problems?
How do you avoid said problems?
How do you keep your AR Happy?
What are brands to avoid?
Is a piston system really the evolution of the weapon?
What are parts that tend to fail?
What are some costly and easily avoided mistakes when building one?


That was my intent. I definitely didn't want to open the thread up to people *****ing about how I should shut up because guns are tools and they're all the same and that military skillsets are useless to civies, yadda yadda yadda. Those answers didn't even correlate to the original post.

Bold highlights #1: Our answers reflect your question, go back and re-read it it's a very confusing post. Your post is all over the place and not really leaning towards one direction. If this was your first post I would imagine you may have more favorable results.

Bold highlights #2: Military skill sets are the majority of this argument. Who else uses these type of rifles any where near what the military does? The odds of law enforcement officer getting in a gun fight and NOT using his/her pistol are extremely low. Only a small percent (probably less than 1%)of LEO will be afforded enough time in a gun fight to go back to their cruiser and grab a shotgun/carbine. Other than criminal activity civilian usage of the AR's in real world gun fights is next to nothing. You asked for the militaries outlook on the platform and most of the people who said it's a tool are former military.

asuh
06-23-2011, 11:38 AM
Why so many haters?

It's as if, on a car forum, someone asking "What's better - a Honda Civic, or a Toyota Corolla?"

Then you have all these wet blankets going "Gawd, as if this question hasn't been asked 12 gajukillion times already!!!" "Yeah - questions like these should result in a permaban!" "F-ing troll!" "Damn noobs!" "Get outta here with that troll question, you troll!!!"

sheesh. It's an Internet forum. If the thread topic makes you roll your eyes, it's pretty simple to just not post a reply, isn't it? I wonder if 13-year old girls treat each other this way in a "who's cuter, Robert Pattinson, or Justin Bieber?" thread.

Very well said. All of these internet forums have those select few who consider themselves experts and have these weird notions of entitlement that the forum should only adhere to what they consider right. It's ridiculous. Gun forums, car forums, motorcycle forums, even guitar forums....I call this special breed of people, sensitive "girly" b.itches. Lighten up people and enjoy the forum for what it is.

I'm currently in the process of building my first AR (M16A4 clone) and I find these type of threads very interesting and informative and I thank those of you who contribute to the thread. Whiney girly b.itches, relax yeah? ;)

Inquirer
06-23-2011, 12:10 PM
Thanks 23 Blast, Asuh. Appreciate the defense.

As for Pyro's assessment - I don't really understand how the posts got so misconstrued. I mentioned a SEAL friend, and suddenly it becomes a debate about tactics. I say expressly that I don't intend the thread to be an AR vs. AK thread, and I get accused that the thread's exactly that. If somebody had initially posted something they like about ARs or a gripe they had instead of going off on a rant, I'd think this would be making a lot more sense to you guys right now.

All this thread was intended to be was a compendium of the community's experience with the AR-15: Likes, Dislikes, Drawbacks, Workarounds, Anecdotes, etc. That is all. I refuse to further defend my position because, frankly, yours and Dieselpowers estimation of this thread is completely off base. If you don't like the question, don't post. Or, if you must, don't make it a chastisement for something I'm not even doing.

Firearm fuddy-duddies wagging their fingers at me for asking too broad a question has left a sour taste in my mouth.

r3dn3ck
06-23-2011, 12:24 PM
It's a fine weapon system. There are similar gun designs out there and a world of modifications for the AR-15 itself but fact of the matter is that it's a decent enough rifle for our military to have stuck with it for nearly 40 years in one form or another. Are there rifles which lack some of the drawbacks without losing much...yes but they're uncommon compared to an AR-15 platform. It's common enough and good enough to be seriously considered for most anything that you could possibly use it for.

pyro3k2
06-23-2011, 12:24 PM
Thanks 23 Blast, Asuh. Appreciate the defense.

As for Pyro's assessment - I don't really understand how the posts got so misconstrued. I mentioned a SEAL friend, and suddenly it becomes a debate about tactics. I say expressly that I don't intend the thread to be an AR vs. AK thread, and I get accused that the thread's exactly that. If somebody had initially posted something they like about ARs or a gripe they had instead of going off on a rant, I'd think this would be making a lot more sense to you guys right now.

All this thread was intended to be was a compendium of the community's experience with the AR-15: Likes, Dislikes, Drawbacks, Workarounds, Anecdotes, etc. That is all. I refuse to further defend my position because, frankly, yours and Dieselpowers estimation of this thread is completely off base. If you don't like the question, don't post. Or, if you must, don't make it a chastisement for something I'm not even doing.

Firearm fuddy-duddies wagging their fingers at me for asking too broad a question has left a sour taste in my mouth.

You speak as if we are the only two people doing so and that we have thread jacked your thread. The rest of the responses say otherwise, Easy solution to this is to simply replace the first post with what you said in post #18. Changing the title will go a long ways as well. I think you were the only one who wasn't expecting an AR vs the world thread with a title like that. Would be better suited with a title like "Calguns AR data base" or something like that. There is still a chance that you can get your desired results and those two easy changes would do a great deal in your favor.

frankm
06-23-2011, 12:26 PM
Piston 18inch barreled AR in 6.8. What else would you want?

Brown Rock
06-23-2011, 1:05 PM
AK vs AR Thread !!!!

Ill stick to my pack a punched ray gun when the zombies come....

Good choice. :46:

HK Dave
06-23-2011, 1:12 PM
:beatdeadhorse5::36:

rodeoflyer
06-23-2011, 1:13 PM
I Love the the SHTF stuff........such fun reading......I'd be lost with out them...;)

don't want to read them...don't....your choice...but to block people becuse "you" don't want to read em'.........sounds abit like Govt. control don't it......

this is a great site , and i've learned much and get good info from here.......I'm glad to be here.

let it be.

No, it's a matter of rude and lazy people cluttering up the que with threads that have been hashed out over and over and over again. Those people could use the search function and leave the top of the que for threads about more unique and/or less talked about items.

It sounds more like common ****ing courtesy to me.

tacticalcity
06-23-2011, 1:22 PM
AR's and AK's are tools, you pick the appropraite tool for the job. You don't use a hammer when you need a knife and same for the reverse. From what you desribe it sounds like you are looking for an 18inch barreled AR in 7.62x39/6.8/6.5. Make your AR for your needs. To answer some of your other points, even though I am very far into the AK camp. The AR platform is a good proven rifle with a good service record thats just not for me.

Military experience shouldn't give credibility automatically unless we are talking about very specif things about military service. If you are talking about combat, then yes, but i've seen combat and I can tell you there are some people on this site that make me look like a novice on an AR. Don't discount good quality people just because they have never been shot at for their country. Besides not everyone in the military gets to see action and become these fabled "operators".

I could not agree with you more, and I fall into the AR camp. Every tool has its place. There is no perfect soltion with regards to weapon system or caliber. My go to system with regards to rifles is the AR platform, usually in 5.56mm. But if I were going to try and shoot 300 yards or more, I would want to jump up to .308. Not because I can't make hits at those distances with 5.56mm but because it is a lot easier, more effective and lot more enjoyable with a .308. Similiarly I would not try and use .308 for CQB. The added recoil makes it way too slow and the massive over penatration becomes a major liability. The same holds true with my choice of optics. In an urban enviorment, I normally opt for a red dot. Because my shots are for the most part close up and magnification becomes more of a liability. In a rural enviorment I like a little magnification, because the average shot takes places much further out. For long range precision shooting I like 10x by default because that is what I am used to. So it all comes down to the job at hand, and my familiarity with the availble tools.

As for the AR in 5.56mm I love it. It is great for an urban enviorment. And soldiers working in an Urban enviorment love it as well. It makes a pretty decent main battle rifle round as well. So why are a lot of Special Operations (not Special Forces because that is a specific Army organization and does not encompass the Seals, Combat Controls, Rangers, Delta Force, etc.) guys looking for a round with a little more umpf? Because they are working in the hills of Afghanistan, which offers a totally unique set of challenges. They are fighting mountain ridge to mountain ridge, and really need to be able to reach out and touch somebody. It is NOT your typical situation. It is NOT what the 5.56 is designed for.

So if you switched out their uppers for 6.8SPC that would be great for now. However, it could be the exact opposite tool for the next conflict. So the solution thus far has been to supliment their existing systems rather than replace them. But all the ARM CHAIR guys hear "The Seals Are Using X" and then start spouting off that they no longer are using the 5.56mm because it "sucks". That simply is not the case. These guys are just getting new tools for their tool boxes to meet unique challenges. That is all.

NorCalK9.com
06-23-2011, 1:50 PM
Very well said. All of these internet forums have those select few who consider themselves experts and have these weird notions of entitlement that the forum should only adhere to what they consider right. It's ridiculous. Gun forums, car forums, motorcycle forums, even guitar forums....I call this special breed of people, sensitive "girly" b.itches. Lighten up people and enjoy the forum for what it is.

I'm currently in the process of building my first AR (M16A4 clone) and I find these type of threads very interesting and informative and I thank those of you who contribute to the thread. Whiney girly b.itches, relax yeah? ;)

Dude you are freaking awesome. Tried saying the same thing in other posts I think somepeople comment on every damn thread in the centerfire forum.

advocatusdiaboli
06-23-2011, 2:42 PM
Phased Plasma rifle, 50 watt range. :rolleyes:

I have a 5.56 M-4 AR and am building a 6.8 SPC and .458 SOCOM with two uppers and adding a .22 LR upper to switch out with the M-4. The .30 OSSM is intriguing as well.

For me, the economical versatility of the AR-15 platform is without peer. But then I don't need to perform adjustments with a hammer when braced against my boot in the mud—I'd get a 7.62 AK for that.

There is no perfect tool, only the optimal tool by your calculation for your needs and budget or your are in an organization that selects your tool for you and doing your job is more important than quibbling about tools not that you have the choice. I've lived through the latter and now have the luxury of the former. Good luck to you in your quest Grasshopper.

d4v0s
06-23-2011, 3:16 PM
give me a break... why do gun guys obsess over things like this...

analogy...
A few professional race car driver's pit crew used a MAC screwdriver to adjust a hose clamp and now every idiot guy at home needs that screwdriver he saw on TV....the crew man couldn't care F-ing less what he used...yet 11teen billion goofballs do.

analogy....
I own a company that is responsible to do X. To do X my employees need Y. I need to buy a butt load of Ys and can't bankrupt myself doing it...so I buy "Z brand" Ys to give to my 11teen billion employees...now every little boy who dreams of working for me thinks Z brand Ys are the best...LOL

wake up and smell the coffee....
A tool is a Tool. Its used to complete a job. Your tool selection is determined by your skill and skill set when its applied to that job. The AR15, the M4, the MP5, the AK, the AKM, the FAL, the SKS, the Gali..they are all the same thing.

The AR15 platform has one advantage over all others...it can be configured like the others and fire their ammo. Other firearms have that ability too. Its just not as easy in many cases.

and just to toss some real world experience into the mix... Unless you are in a SEAL team, what your SEAL buddy says is worthless to you. You get a lot of idiots in the Military who don't realize their opinions, their training, their knowledge base, they instinct, their skill set is 100% worthless as a civilian without the Military backing them up.

If you train like a SEAL...you are going to fail. If you ask a SEAL his opinion on weapon choice you are going to fail. SEALs act in a set pattern because they are taught to do that knowing that a process exist to support that pattern....YOU do not have that pattern or process to back you, therefore its a complete failure if you use that set pattern in your life.

It takes a while for the new AR15 and new AK47 owners to realize these facts..some never do. Its a "fail" of logic...its a "fail" of real world skills when guys can not move away from the black ops video game mentality or the Hollywood actor image of the Military. Some people have figured out they can make BANK selling the "fail" to the guys who haven't realized it yet.

DIESEL POWER FOR PRESIDENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Seriously there is no be all end all in firearms, Pick your goals and find a weapon that fits.

For instance i chose an AR15 made by rock river with chrome BCG and chrome bore, chambered in 556... Why? because i wanted a easy to clean, cheap to shoot, rifle that could reach out to 600 yards and was semi auto.

Variety is the spice of life, my advice is to build something you can afford to shoot, then once you actually run some carbine courses, start thinking of what helps you hit the silhouettes faster and better... you cannot just copy what X group does to score kills, Go check out the swat team in Ventura, they run all different rifles, and optics, because its what works for them..

JDW67
06-23-2011, 3:40 PM
After spending stupid amounts of money on several AR's, I ended up with a KISS M-4. It was an expensive lesson...

xXRifleManXx
06-23-2011, 5:16 PM
As for whats better, its been said a million times.... its what works for you and is best in your inviroment.
get a .22 for fun and to learn to shoot riflemen with open sights(this really is the main thing that matters if you cant hit your target you just made yourself one).\
Get a bolt action in .308/30-06 for hunting and to reach out and touch someone at 600 yards( sorry .223 you weak and are not going to do it).
And get a battle rifle for action inside of 250 yards, this is where a .223 shines though i would still take my FAL or M1A anyday.

you shoot to learn
you shoot for food
you shoot for freedom
you shoot for fun

find one thats right for you and someone else can depend on your skills when the time comes, thats your duty to your community no one stands alone

The Virus
06-23-2011, 6:03 PM
I'm glad this is FINALLY settled.

SIGSHOOTR
06-23-2011, 6:06 PM
I have owned and sold off many AR rifles over the
last 30 years and I finally found one that I will be keeping.

http://i895.photobucket.com/albums/ac160/The_H2O_MAN/AR-100 DAEWOO/IMG_4103.jpg

That's my final verdict on the AR.


K2- nice. Brings back memories.

Inquirer
06-23-2011, 8:32 PM
I have owned and sold off many AR rifles over the
last 30 years and I finally found one that I will be keeping.

http://i895.photobucket.com/albums/ac160/The_H2O_MAN/AR-100 DAEWOO/IMG_4103.jpg

That's my final verdict on the AR.

Piston AR before Piston ARs!

locosway
06-23-2011, 11:43 PM
Platform vs platform is a stupid debate, as many have pointed out. You use the right tool for the job, and if that means an AK or an AR then so be it. However, there is a downside to the AR being chambered in 5.56, and that it lacks penetration. However, you do gain the ability to carry more rounds. So, like anything else in life it's a trade off.

This is why other calibers are popping up in the AR platform, and it makes sense to maybe have your team consist of the same caliber, but also give them the option to switch it up if they need to.

ERQdRkG5Hko