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BC9696
06-21-2011, 7:26 AM
Some guys on the Hunting & Fishing Board are saying it is LEGAL to carry a concealed handgun while hunting (in a thread about sidearms) but I am certain this is BS and a violation. Can any LEO, atty here confirm?

Tripper
06-21-2011, 7:30 AM
Not LEO
You can tho
While hunting or fishing
Or on your way to
So long as you don't pass through a otherwise prohibited area
It's in fish/game code somewhere

Tripper
06-21-2011, 7:33 AM
It is a violation if you are hunting under an archery only tag

Rule .308
06-21-2011, 7:36 AM
It is basically legal. You can carry concealed to and from hunting and fishing and where it is legal to discharge a firearm it is legal to CCW loaded. If you take the time to look up the regs yourself you will see that your posession of a current hunting or fishing license acts as a valid CCW. I have covered this at length with a DFG game warden and have subsequently looked it up myself to verify it. I know it almost sounds too good to be true and you can bet you will run up against ignorant law enforcement on it but it does not change the fact of the matter. Why take the word of some keyboard commando, use your own time, look it up yourself.

GrizzlyGuy
06-21-2011, 8:52 AM
They're not wrong, it is legal, here you go (12027 (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12027.html)):

Section 12025 does not apply to, or affect, any of the
following:

{...}

(g) Licensed hunters or fishermen carrying pistols, revolvers, or
other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person while
engaged in hunting or fishing, or transporting those firearms
unloaded when going to or returning from the hunting or fishing
expedition.

Important to note: you can only carry concealed + unloaded on the way to and from. Once doing it, it can be concealed + loaded if carrying loaded is not otherwise prohibited (see 12031 (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12031.html)).

BC9696
06-21-2011, 9:11 AM
I stand corrected. I am amazed! Something is actually legal in the People's Republik of Mexifornistan! Thanks gents.

erik_26
06-21-2011, 10:13 AM
I would keep a copy of the PC with you or, memorize it and all that goes with it incase of a LEO encounter.

Also, if you are CCW and you encounter a LEO, I believe you must state that you are armed.

Yugo
06-21-2011, 10:18 AM
sorry to thread jack but this is the funniest one Ive seen so far, "Mexifornistan" :rofl2:

BigDogatPlay
06-21-2011, 1:51 PM
I would keep a copy of the PC with you or, memorize it and all that goes with it incase of a LEO encounter.

I'd submit that the majority of LEOs you run into while out hunting will be either rural sheriff's deputies or DFG wardens. Both of those are usually pretty savvy to the loaded+concealed while hunting exemption. What is more important for you the hunter is to be aware of where you are to ensure you don't enter into an area where going loaded would otherwise be prohibited.

Also, if you are CCW and you encounter a LEO, I believe you must state that you are armed.

Some states require that, California does not although I suppose some local CLEOs issuing permits could require it.

BC9696
06-21-2011, 5:54 PM
Curious though...the text reads:

Calif. Penal Code 12027 (exemption to 12025)
(g) Licensed hunters or fishermen carrying pistols, revolvers, or
other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person while
engaged in hunting or fishing, or transporting those firearms
unloaded when going to or returning from the hunting or fishing
expedition.

http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12027.html


I wonder if capable of being concealed is the same as actually concealed. It's a bit ambiguous.

erik_26
06-21-2011, 6:34 PM
[QUOTE=BigDogatPlay;6633220]I'd submit that the majority of LEOs you run into while out hunting will be either rural sheriff's deputies or DFG wardens. Both of those are usually pretty savvy to the loaded+concealed while hunting exemption. QUOTE]

True.... but if you are doing the whole to/from part.... the city leos on your way out of or into town may not be so hip.

Librarian
06-21-2011, 6:44 PM
Curious though...the text reads:

Calif. Penal Code 12027 (exemption to 12025)
(g) Licensed hunters or fishermen carrying pistols, revolvers, or
other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person while
engaged in hunting or fishing, or transporting those firearms
unloaded when going to or returning from the hunting or fishing
expedition.

http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12027.html


I wonder if capable of being concealed is the same as actually concealed. It's a bit ambiguous.

'capable of' would not be interpreted as actually being concealed - but that's not an issue, since the quoted exception is to allow concealment and not be prosecuted for violating 12025.

That's more to allow concealing something that is not a pistol or a revolver but still is 'capable of being concealed'. No, I don't know what that might be.

BigDogatPlay
06-21-2011, 7:36 PM
True.... but if you are doing the whole to/from part.... the city leos on your way out of or into town may not be so hip.

And to be absolutely honest, if I am transporting a pistol, revolver or firearm capable of being concealed to the hunting grounds, I transport it unloaded and in a locked container if I don't have a CCW. That avoids pretty much any potential for problem.

A LEO could just as well cite you out or book you for PC12025, regardless of whether you were going hunting or fishing. Yeah, the court gets to decide later, and maybe it becomes case law a few years down the road on appeal. It might be interesting to research out the case law on what is and is not going to or coming from.

Still not a good way to spend a day. But that's just my thinking.

BC9696
06-21-2011, 10:17 PM
I hafta agree. That's why I O.C. when strapped in the field.

Notorious
06-22-2011, 9:37 AM
I would conceal a pistol gripped shotgun.

BC9696
06-24-2011, 12:16 PM
Is there a LEO in the house than can clarify the 12025/12027 codes and offer a "professional" opinion?

BigDogatPlay
06-24-2011, 12:34 PM
Is there a LEO in the house than can clarify the 12025/12027 codes and offer a "professional" opinion?

I think if you want professional legal opinions, you might want to contact an attorney. What any of the LEOs here, including me, is going to give you is how we might interpret based on the situation before us.

My statement from three posts up stands... if it was me I would not concealed carry an unloaded pistol, revolver or firearm capable of being concealed while driving from my home to the hunting grounds, which would be some indeterminate distance, potentially hours, away. I would use a locked container, the PC 12026 exemption. I would load and carry either openly or concealed only while I was out in the hunting grounds with knowledge that I am in an area where discharge is allowed.

Assuming that I do not have a CCW permit, and I am not otherwise exempted by means of my employment.

That is what I'd do. YMMV. :D

Librarian
06-24-2011, 12:57 PM
I can tell you that after looking through the cases returned by Findlaw, there appears to be no appeals-court opinions that refer to the 12027 hunting exemption; almost all of the cases are regarding LEO or former LEO and endorsements to carry from their departments.

TurboChrisB
06-24-2011, 1:16 PM
I think that may not be the case as often as we'd think......otherwise we wouldn't be needing THIS

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=418190


I'd submit that the majority of LEOs you run into while out hunting will be either rural sheriff's deputies or DFG wardens. Both of those are usually pretty savvy to the loaded+concealed while hunting exemption. What is more important for you the hunter is to be aware of where you are to ensure you don't enter into an area where going loaded would otherwise be prohibited.



Some states require that, California does not although I suppose some local CLEOs issuing permits could require it.

BigDogatPlay
06-24-2011, 5:48 PM
I think that may not be the case as often as we'd think......otherwise we wouldn't be needing THIS

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=418190

The issues with BLM, who are not (generally) empowered as California peace officers, are pretty well known as you infer. Call me an elitist, but the last person I would have thought of as a "rural LEO" is a BLM ranger. My post was directed toward rural city police and rural sheriff's deputies, many of whom hunt, fish, shoot and understand. Of the BLM rangers I've met and interacted with, very few were that way.

NytWolf
06-24-2011, 5:59 PM
Curious though...the text reads:

Calif. Penal Code 12027 (exemption to 12025)
(g) Licensed hunters or fishermen carrying pistols, revolvers, or
other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person while
engaged in hunting or fishing, or transporting those firearms
unloaded when going to or returning from the hunting or fishing
expedition.

http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12027.html


I wonder if capable of being concealed is the same as actually concealed. It's a bit ambiguous.

This is the way I read it:

"Licensed hunters or fishermen carrying
a) pistols,
b) revolvers, or
c) other firearms capable of being concealed
upon the person while engaged in hunting or fishing, or transporting those firearms unloaded when going to or returning from the hunting or fishing
expedition."

That phrase, "capable of being concealed", is needed before not all fishermen or hunters carry their weapons in a concealed manner. Even some carry it in their backpacks, fanny packs, etc. But more importantly, this means, the exception makes it legal for both concealed AND open carry.

BLOWN RAIDER
06-25-2011, 2:39 PM
Really GOOD piece of knowledge here guys...

Thanks for the heads up :kilt: