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View Full Version : Q: Roughly when will we attack the "large" cap ban?


Paladin
06-15-2011, 9:24 PM
http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Large-capacity_magazine_restrictions

Just wondering roughly when that will be litigated?

Will it be attacked first by us or in some other state w/a hicap ban?

emcon5
06-15-2011, 9:26 PM
:twoweeks:

Whiterabbit
06-15-2011, 9:27 PM
I'd rather see the bullet button requirement lifted.

sawchain
06-15-2011, 9:41 PM
I'd rather see the 2nd amendment respected.

stix213
06-15-2011, 9:46 PM
Gene has something brewing, and has for a while. Not sure what the delay is right now but I'm sure its for good reason.

cbaer5
06-15-2011, 9:52 PM
I'd rather see the bullet button requirement lifted.

not me if i had to pick one i would vote for having 20/30/60 or 100 rounds at my disposal than having to reload 2/3/6/10 times
just my .02

WDE91
06-15-2011, 10:02 PM
I would rather have magazine capacity issue tackled first
that just means go featureless
then tackle the magazine locks

dotalchemy
06-15-2011, 10:06 PM
I'd rather have CCW in SF / LA / etc tackled.

"Self Defense" wise, I can take someone with two rounds. At the range, well, I usually take my Mosin anyway, and I usually hand load that shot by shot - I rarely use the 5rd mag.

It's all about priorities, and being limited to 10rds in a mag is low on most lists here in the PRK.

canative
06-15-2011, 10:11 PM
I'm greedy! I want all the B.S. laws to go away!

Yugo
06-15-2011, 10:13 PM
I'd rather have CCW in SF / LA / etc tackled.

"Self Defense" wise, I can take someone with two rounds. At the range, well, I usually take my Mosin anyway, and I usually hand load that shot by shot - I rarely use the 5rd mag.

It's all about priorities, and being limited to 10rds in a mag is low on most lists here in the PRK.

You beat me to it! CCW, CCW, CCW......oh I almost forgot CCW!

12voltguy
06-15-2011, 10:14 PM
Gene has something brewing, and has for a while. Not sure what the delay is right now but I'm sure its for good reason.

he has the ball rolling
nothing to do, it's being done:)

Paladin
06-15-2011, 10:20 PM
I'd rather have CCW in SF / LA / etc tackled.

"Self Defense" wise, I can take someone with two rounds. At the range, well, I usually take my Mosin anyway, and I usually hand load that shot by shot - I rarely use the 5rd mag.

It's all about priorities, and being limited to 10rds in a mag is low on most lists here in the PRK.
It's not a question of either hicaps or CCWs. We've already got something like 12 to 15 CCW/"carry" lawsuits in federal courts around the country with 3 of them in CA (soon to be 4 if SF doesn't clean up its act ASAP).

We've also already got the handgun roster being litigated w/the Pena federal case.

Thus I'm wondering when will hicaps get their federal lawsuit?

InGrAM
06-15-2011, 10:28 PM
I'd rather have CCW in SF / LA / etc tackled.

"Self Defense" wise, I can take someone with two rounds. At the range, well, I usually take my Mosin anyway, and I usually hand load that shot by shot - I rarely use the 5rd mag.

It's all about priorities, and being limited to 10rds in a mag is low on most lists here in the PRK.

Yes, ccw issues need to be delt with but the magazine restriction needs to be high on the list as well. You might think all you need is "two rounds" to take someone out of the fight but you could be wrong and chances are you would be wrong. This kind of statement rings bells like brady and his cronies preach. No offense.

My want for my rifle or handgun to hold more than 10 rounds legally, Out ways any ones "need" to feel safer by me only having 10 rounds.

Yugo
06-15-2011, 10:31 PM
Everything all in due time...you guys know how SLOW these over paid people work. (gov) I think we will over come all these dumb laws and procedures.

notme92069
06-15-2011, 10:42 PM
There seems to be a lot of litigation going on right now. I'm as impatient as anyone. And I keep hearing that there is a plan. From what I've been seeing lately, I do believe "they" have a strong plan. With every new move, the importance of the previous moves becomes more apparent. It is also becoming obvious that the strategy is exceedingly well thought out and, I believe, the parts are coming all together. I'm excited!

G60
06-15-2011, 10:50 PM
The next step is a lawsuit to be filed in federal court against the state of CA. which iirc is the final step in what was a 19 part process.

shihan7
06-15-2011, 11:07 PM
I am new here. My thoughts are: Federal law trumps state law. So, the Constitution Of The United States Of America is the ultimate law of the land, PERIOD. The second amendment trumps ALL STATE GUN CARRY/OWNERSHIP LAWS... PERIOD. All this CCW/Open carry, magazine crap is pure lawlessness in regard to the Constitution. I just don't understand how there is ANY ROOM FOR NEGATING THE SECOND AMENDMENT, while illegally allowing illegal immigrants under the fourteenth amendment. Politicians pick and choose which laws to obey. The whole disgusting truth is that communism, oops, I mean this government is trying to take the teeth and control away from the CITIZENS. I am no conspiracy theorist. I AM A GOD FEARING PATRIOT! We have the GOD GIVEN AND CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT TO KEEP... AND BEAR ARMS (ON our person) PERIOD. Anything else is bovine feces and completely illegal PERIOD... WHY HASN'T SOME SERIOUS CONSTITUTIONAL LAW ATTORNEY PUT ALL THIS TO BED NATIONALLY, ONCE AND FOR ALL?

CSACANNONEER
06-15-2011, 11:08 PM
I'd rather see the bullet button requirement lifted.

There is NO REQUIREMENT to use a BB or any other type of mag lock. You can always go featureless, use a P50 type lock or weld youe mag to your receiver if you really don't like using a BB.

Using a BB is a CHOICE!

hoffmang
06-15-2011, 11:14 PM
:twoweeks:

-Gene

Librarian
06-15-2011, 11:15 PM
I am new here. My thoughts are: Federal law trumps state law. So, the Constitution Of The United States Of America is the ultimate law of the land, PERIOD. The second amendment trumps ALL STATE GUN CARRY/OWNERSHIP LAWS... PERIOD. All this CCW/Open carry, magazine crap is pure lawlessness in regard to the Constitution. I just don't understand how there is ANY ROOM FOR NEGATING THE SECOND AMENDMENT, while illegally allowing illegal immigrants under the fourteenth amendment. Politicians pick and choose which laws to obey. The whole disgusting truth is that communism, oops, I mean this government is trying to take the teeth and control away from the CITIZENS. I am no conspiracy theorist. I AM A GOD FEARING PATRIOT! We have the GOD GIVEN AND CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT TO KEEP... AND BEAR ARMS (ON our person) PERIOD. Anything else is bovine feces and completely illegal PERIOD... WHY HASN'T SOME SERIOUS CONSTITUTIONAL LAW ATTORNEY PUT ALL THIS TO BED NATIONALLY, ONCE AND FOR ALL?

Welcome to Calguns.

A 'serious constitutional law attorney' - several, in fact - has/have begun a long campaign to undo about 100 years of error.

Before the Heller decision in 2008, nearly no court believed the Second Amendment was an individual right; before the McDonald decision of 2010, nearly no court accepted that the Second Amendment restricted state action, and suits were thrown out due to lack of 'standing'.

Before June 28, 2010, those cases you hope to 'put all this to bed' would have never gotten past their first Federal court date.

Now that cases are begun - in many jurisdictions across the country - they have to move at the speed that the courts move. That's years, not days.

Read the wiki on the cases in progress: http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Litigation_Past_and_Present

luckystrike
06-15-2011, 11:19 PM
CCW before mags and BBs. I would like to be able to defend myself looooong before I want to reload less.

safewaysecurity
06-15-2011, 11:36 PM
Remember Gene selling those 4 ruger 10/22 mags a few months ago? I'm guessing the case could be filed any minute now.

bwiese
06-15-2011, 11:55 PM
1. Yes, Gene is (albeiit sporadically) in the business of selling various magazines.

2. Things are quite busy now, lawyer-wise. We don't want various kettles to boil over. This will have to hold off for
a bit, but please do not infer any difficulties or lack of validity to such hicap magazine "specialty path priming" work.

3. To the OP: direct attacks on CA (or other states') hicap mag laws will likely not meet with great success. However,
the work done here (discussed before, and which will occur in the relatively near future) is applicable to other states too.
The work done here will really prime the way for folks in other denied areas (HI, etc.) - including local bans.

I will note that, eventually, when the actions we've murkily discussed do occur, CA hicap mag regulations will still be on
the books. Such mags acquired in CA thru a specialty path will be legal to have, but will generally not be transportable
outside and back into CA given the "hicap mag reimportation exemption" is for pre-2000 mags only. However, a business
running magazines thru this 'specialty path' could exist such that it creates a 'cloud' of magazine flows - one such that
you leave CA with a mag, send it to this special business before returning to CA (or returning to CA with parts), and then
reacquire an identical mag again thru the specialty path.

Paladin
06-16-2011, 12:17 AM
3. To the OP: direct attacks on CA (or other states') hicap mag laws will likely not meet with great success. However,
the work done here (discussed before, and which will occur in the relatively near future) is applicable to other states too.
The work done here will really prime the way for folks in other denied areas (HI, etc.) - including local bans.

I will note that, eventually, when the actions we've murkily discussed do occur, CA hicap mag regulations will still be on
the books. Such mags acquired in CA thru a specialty path will be legal to have, but will generally not be transportable
outside and back into CA given the "hicap mag reimportation exemption" is for pre-2000 mags only. However, a business
running magazines thru this 'specialty path' could exist such that it creates a 'cloud' of magazine flows - one such that
you leave CA with a mag, send it to this special business before returning to CA (or returning to CA with parts), and then
reacquire an identical mag again thru the specialty path.You've piqued my interest. I've bolded the relevant parts.

Roughly when (please skip the "two weeks" reply), will these conditions be in place: this year? 2012? beyond 2012?

safewaysecurity
06-16-2011, 12:28 AM
I will note that, eventually, when the actions we've murkily discussed do occur, CA hicap mag regulations will still be on
the books. Such mags acquired in CA thru a specialty path will be legal to have, but will generally not be transportable
outside and back into CA given the "hicap mag reimportation exemption" is for pre-2000 mags only. However, a business
running magazines thru this 'specialty path' could exist such that it creates a 'cloud' of magazine flows - one such that
you leave CA with a mag, send it to this special business before returning to CA (or returning to CA with parts), and then
reacquire an identical mag again thru the specialty path.

Relating to your fourth point wouldn't the courts be forced to strike down California's High Cap mags laws given that there is no way to tell if a high cap mag was legally obtained or not? It would cause lots of confusion with law enforcement and I feel like there will be some unnecessary arrests and possibly initial convictions.

safewaysecurity
06-16-2011, 12:29 AM
You've piqued my interest. I've bolded the relevant parts.

Roughly when (please skip the "two weeks" reply), will these conditions be in place: this year? 2012? beyond 2012?

I'm guessing this year. But that's 100% guessing.

bwiese
06-16-2011, 12:41 AM
Relating to your fourth point wouldn't the courts be forced to strike down California's High Cap mags laws given that there is no way to tell if a high cap mag was legally obtained or not? It would cause lots of confusion with law enforcement and I feel like there will be some unnecessary arrests and possibly initial convictions.

Not necessarily.

erikdjs
06-16-2011, 1:05 AM
CCW is more important imo. I'd rather carry 10 than have access to 11+.

shihan7
06-16-2011, 1:49 AM
Librarian,
Thank you for the reply.

KandyRedCoi
06-16-2011, 1:53 AM
I'd rather see the bullet button requirement lifted.

+1, whats the point of a 30rd mag if u still have to use a Bullet Button...bullet button and shall issue are of utmost importance

HowardW56
06-16-2011, 7:19 AM
:twoweeks:

-Gene

Damm Gene, you told me six weeks.... :eek:

:rofl2:

G60
06-16-2011, 7:42 AM
+1, whats the point of a 30rd mag if u still have to use a Bullet Button...bullet button and shall issue are of utmost importance

You aren't required to use a bullet button. This is a personal endeavor of gene's that took no time, money, or resources away from what the CGF is working on. Now politely stop looking this gift horse in the mouth.

Jake71
06-16-2011, 7:45 AM
ccw for LA please first....

I live less than a mile from the San Bernadino line, so still in LA county... i want a CCW.

HowardW56
06-16-2011, 7:47 AM
You've piqued my interest. I've bolded the relevant parts.

Roughly when (please skip the "two weeks" reply), will these conditions be in place: this year? 2012? beyond 2012?


You'll be pleased.... :D

This will prove to be another piece of legal brilliance....

HowardW56
06-16-2011, 7:49 AM
ccw for LA please first....

I live less than a mile from the San Bernadino line, so still in LA county... i want a CCW.

Different issue, different approach..... :D

Bhobbs
06-16-2011, 9:13 AM
+1, whats the point of a 30rd mag if u still have to use a Bullet Button...bullet button and shall issue are of utmost importance

Build a featureless. No features = no BB = you can run hi caps.

Bhobbs
06-16-2011, 9:15 AM
1. Yes, Gene is (albeiit sporadically) in the business of selling various magazines.

2. Things are quite busy now, lawyer-wise. We don't want various kettles to boil over. This will have to hold off for
a bit, but please do not infer any difficulties or lack of validity to such hicap magazine "specialty path priming" work.

3. To the OP: direct attacks on CA (or other states') hicap mag laws will likely not meet with great success. However,
the work done here (discussed before, and which will occur in the relatively near future) is applicable to other states too.
The work done here will really prime the way for folks in other denied areas (HI, etc.) - including local bans.

I will note that, eventually, when the actions we've murkily discussed do occur, CA hicap mag regulations will still be on
the books. Such mags acquired in CA thru a specialty path will be legal to have, but will generally not be transportable
outside and back into CA given the "hicap mag reimportation exemption" is for pre-2000 mags only. However, a business
running magazines thru this 'specialty path' could exist such that it creates a 'cloud' of magazine flows - one such that
you leave CA with a mag, send it to this special business before returning to CA (or returning to CA with parts), and then
reacquire an identical mag again thru the specialty path.

Isn't it possible that the legislature will just eliminate the exemption as soon as it is public knowledge?

bwiese
06-16-2011, 10:14 AM
Isn't it possible that the legislature will just eliminate the exemption as soon as it is public knowledge?

No, it's not possible where it matters.

notme92069
06-16-2011, 10:32 AM
Relating to your fourth point wouldn't the courts be forced to strike down California's High Cap mags laws given that there is no way to tell if a high cap mag was legally obtained or not? It would cause lots of confusion with law enforcement and I feel like there will be some unnecessary arrests and possibly initial convictions.

How about this. Get the CADOJ's "expert" on the stand and present the "expert" with 4 AR mags

1. 30 round mag purchased prior to the ban and legal
2. 30 round mag purchased after the ban and illegal
3. 30 round mag purchased by LEO and legal
4. 10/30 round mag - legal

And then have the "expert" identify each mag. Is the law unconstitutionally vague?

wash
06-16-2011, 10:35 AM
Wow, I gave up watching the old thread.

Is Gene almost ready to buy an Icecream truck and sell mags out of it?

I know there are a couple things going on about the featured "assault weapon" ban, so it looks like we've got it all, fighting for CCW, large capacity magazines, "assault weapons" and sensitive places.

KandyRedCoi
06-16-2011, 10:40 AM
How about this. Get the CADOJ's "expert" on the stand and present the "expert" with 4 AR mags

1. 30 round mag purchased prior to the ban and legal
2. 30 round mag purchased after the ban and illegal
3. 30 round mag purchased by LEO and legal
4. 10/30 round mag - legal

And then have the "expert" identify each mag. Is the law unconstitutionally vague?

im no expert but that seems like a good idea

timdps
06-16-2011, 10:53 AM
Relating to your fourth point wouldn't the courts be forced to strike down California's High Cap mags laws given that there is no way to tell if a high cap mag was legally obtained or not?

This is the case now. There is currently no way to tell if (most) high cap mags were legally obtained or not.

Direct challenge of the high cap ban will, at he very least need the scrutiny level for settling 2A challenges defined, preferably as "strict".

Tim

Uxi
06-16-2011, 11:10 AM
I want to do a Monsterman/featureless build next and while getting rid of the California AWB is important, I'd rather be able to get all the hi-caps I can get right now, for my handguns and featureless. I don't see the CCW issue as being mutually exclusive, so don't think it affects priority.

Bhobbs
06-16-2011, 11:28 AM
No, it's not possible where it matters.

Sweet.

jwkincal
06-16-2011, 3:20 PM
I know there are a couple things going on about the featured "assault weapon" ban, so it looks like we've got it all, fighting for CCW, large capacity magazines, "assault weapons" and sensitive places.

It's like a smorgasbord of Second Amendment sweetness! I'm frickin' GIDDY!

KandyRedCoi
06-16-2011, 3:25 PM
true i was only thinking normal cap mags for rifles and such and completely overlooked the pistols....duh on me....keep up the good work CGF!!!

wash
06-16-2011, 4:03 PM
You're one of those people who hoarded pre-ban magazines before CA passed the silly "large capacity" magazine ban, aren't you?

AREN'T YOU?

The magazine ban is just a minor inconvenience.

While I want it gone too, I don't want it slowing down our other fights at all.

If you can't understand my reasoning, you don't understand the battle we are fighting.

hoffmang
06-16-2011, 10:05 PM
Carry: We're all over carry. We're part of the nationwide effort to get full carry for all - see Richards and the fact that we already got Sacramento County shall issue. We're cleaning up counties left and right. Counties like San Mateo are now completely clean and all you need is some sort of elevated cause. We're suing Ventura for GC statements. We've threatened San Francisco. We've threatened a whole lot more that aren't public yet. We're also cleaning up some other carry issues that will come up from the underworld soon.

AWs: We've gotten the DOJ to admit a proper bullet button makes a legal off list firearm. We're still suing them and we're not done there.

When there is a time conflict Carry and AWs come before mags. However, mags is a different set of law and we're able to move it forward pretty soon.

-Gene

oni.dori
06-16-2011, 10:19 PM
Gene has something brewing, and has for a while. Not sure what the delay is right now but I'm sure its for good reason.

It could have to do with gearing up for the new CA AWB challenge possibly.

Connor P Price
06-16-2011, 10:29 PM
For those concerned that they aren't getting what they want first, remember that CGF is playing "chess not checkers." The AW ban is an entirely different beast than the mag ban which is entirely different from carry rights. Each is attacked from a different angle, in a different manner, and with different strategies.

Rest assured that your donations are being utilized in the most effective way possible. We may like to see one law go down before another, but we are better served by going about things in the right order. Trust that CGF along with the talented lawyers that are working along their side are working efficiently.

ETA: Personally, I'm with you guys, I am less concerned with the mag ban than I am with the AW ban. However, I want them all gone in the end and I trust that CGF and their counsel are doing exactly whats needed to make sure that happens.

Cokebottle
06-16-2011, 10:52 PM
+1, whats the point of a 30rd mag if u still have to use a Bullet Button...bullet button and shall issue are of utmost importance
Stop thinking so small.

100rd Beta-C and you can shoot from the hip without having to reload as long as you have a barrel shroud that goes up ;)

Cokebottle
06-16-2011, 10:53 PM
ccw for LA please first....

I live less than a mile from the San Bernadino line, so still in LA county... i want a CCW.
Just move out of Pomona... you know you want to anyways ;)

Cokebottle
06-16-2011, 10:55 PM
Build a featureless. No features = no BB = you can run hi caps.
Yup.

I was in the final stages of assembling my 2nd AR when Gene's Package became all the rage.
It went featureless... and my third lower became a .22lr.

Cokebottle
06-16-2011, 10:56 PM
How about this. Get the CADOJ's "expert" on the stand and present the "expert" with 4 5 AR mags

1. 30 round mag purchased prior to the ban and legal
2. 30 round mag purchased after the ban and illegal
3. 30 round mag purchased by LEO and legal
4. 10/30 round mag - legal
5. 30 round mag purchased after the ban through the "path" and legal

And then have the "expert" identify each mag. Is the law unconstitutionally vague?
This....

wash
06-17-2011, 9:57 AM
Why don't you throw in a legal pre-ban magazine turned in to an 11-20?

That's a trap right there.

But before you can ask that question, you need a lawsuit.

A civil lawsuit, not a criminal trial.

We are not quite there yet. We might never get there.

If we can make the magazine ban impossible to enforce, that's almost as good as striking it down. It's almost impossible to enforce already. Gene's legal path will make it even more impossible and let everyone get essentially every magazine they want legally.

Right now we've got one of our pawns tying up their pawn. We don't need to bring over our queen to finish the fight, she's kicking *** elsewhere.

formula502
06-17-2011, 10:57 AM
How about this. Get the CADOJ's "expert" on the stand and present the "expert" with 4 AR mags

1. 30 round mag purchased prior to the ban and legal
2. 30 round mag purchased after the ban and illegal
3. 30 round mag purchased by LEO and legal
4. 10/30 round mag - legal

And then have the "expert" identify each mag. Is the law unconstitutionally vague?

I think you're spot on if the law prohibited mere possession. It would be un-enforceable.

Rather I believe the "ban" is focused on the acts of acquisition, importation, etc which can be proved. It's just really hard to do if the accused keeps their mouth shut and there is no damning paper trail.

I dunno... does that make it vague?

wash
06-17-2011, 11:14 AM
No, vagueness is when the state can't or won't tell you what a law prohibits.

Davidwhitewolf
06-21-2011, 3:26 PM
I'm almost more curious at this point to find out how the Northwest Ordinance plays into the whole thing. :) :lurk5:

KandyRedCoi
06-21-2011, 3:36 PM
Carry: We're all over carry. We're part of the nationwide effort to get full carry for all - see Richards and the fact that we already got Sacramento County shall issue. We're cleaning up counties left and right. Counties like San Mateo are now completely clean and all you need is some sort of elevated cause. We're suing Ventura for GC statements. We've threatened San Francisco. We've threatened a whole lot more that aren't public yet. We're also cleaning up some other carry issues that will come up from the underworld soon.

AWs: We've gotten the DOJ to admit a proper bullet button makes a legal off list firearm. We're still suing them and we're not done there.

When there is a time conflict Carry and AWs come before mags. However, mags is a different set of law and we're able to move it forward pretty soon.

-Gene
good work and thank you, any luck with Southern CA. counties as far as the carry issues? i know San Bernardino is pretty good, im waiting for Riverside County to follow suit

Stop thinking so small.

100rd Beta-C and you can shoot from the hip without having to reload as long as you have a barrel shroud that goes up ;)
i knew someone was gonna say that :D

Peter.Steele
06-21-2011, 3:45 PM
I'm almost more curious at this point to find out how the Northwest Ordinance plays into the whole thing. :) :lurk5:



It doesn't.