PDA

View Full Version : Dealer record of sale Record keeping?


yiha
12-20-2006, 9:21 AM
We're having a hot debate about what kind of records are kept for a long-gun sale.

What do they store? how long do they store it?

I thought there was a certain timelimit they can keep the record, like one year.

Essentially the disagreement is what kind of information is stored and available.
My belief was that the DROS records are only available for so long, then destroyed.
The other person is saying that he's doubting that they're deleting all proof of sale etc.


please help, thanks.

E Pluribus Unum
12-20-2006, 9:47 AM
It is a DEALER RECORD OF SALE.

The DOJ knows about it for 30 days. After the 30 days they are required to destroy all records.

The dealer however has it forever. If they go out of business they are required to forward them to the DOJ.

Basically how it works is they cannot tell how many rifles John Doe has. If they have a gun's serial number they can track who bought it.

They contact the manufacturer who tells them which distributor bought the gun. They contact the distributor to find out which gun store bought it. They contact the gun store and determine who bought it from the gun store.

tenpercentfirearms
12-20-2006, 9:48 AM
If we are just talking about DROS on the computer, here is what happens.

I input the data on a long gun transaction into the computer. The only thing it asks as far as gun data is how many long guns. It doesn't ask about rifles or shotguns, serial numbers, caliber, nothing other than "number of long guns".

Now, how long is this limited information in the system? I don't know if the DOJ has a database that tracks these things on the side, but I only have access for 15 days. After 15 days, the DROS number remains, but all of the other data is missing. No name, no number of guns, nothing other than a DROS number.

Again, they might have a database on the side that shows you bought a long gun at some point in your life, but as far as what I see, that doesn't seem to be the case. Of course they can just come by my shop and ask about specific guns or people, so there is always a paper trail.

Since I just watched Red Dawn the other day, don't worry. If the Chinese invade, I will torch all of my 4473s, bound books, and QuickBooks data so they can't track down who has weapons!

John has a long mustache, the chair is against the wall.

ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US!

Fjold
12-20-2006, 10:03 AM
Since I just watched Red Dawn the other day, don't worry. If the Chinese invade, I will torch all of my 4473s, bound books, and QuickBooks data so they can't track down who has weapons!

John has a long mustache, the chair is against the wall.

ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US!

Ok get your information straight, Wes.


It was the Cubans that invaded the US and the Chinese were on our side.

Go watch the movie again and I want a 1,000 word essay on the countries mentioned by name and whch side of the conflict they supported. Include in your essay the difference if any, in the current geo-political climate and how such a shift in power would effect future international relations.

tenpercentfirearms
12-20-2006, 10:14 AM
Ok get your information straight, Wes.


It was the Cubans that invaded the US and the Chinese were on our side.

Go watch the movie again and I want a 1,00 word essay on the countries mentioned by name and whch side of the conflict they supported. Include in your essay the difference if any, in the current geo-political climate and how such a shift in power would effect future international relations.
No you need to get your information straight. The Soviet Union has collapsed. There is no more threat from them. I don't know where you have been for the last 16 years, but the Cold War is over. So if we were going to have a new Red Dawn scenario, it would have to be the Chinese. I know who was in the Red Dawn WWIII, that is one of the questions on the worksheet I give my students about it. You sir, need to get your information straight. The Soviets are no longer a threat! ;)

vikingshelmut
12-20-2006, 10:19 AM
To bring this back...

If dealers only document # of long guns sold during the DROS process, how can a serial number be tracked?

When does a form 4473 come into play, is that only for FFL transfers, and not dealer sales?

tenpercentfirearms
12-20-2006, 10:29 AM
To bring this back...

If dealers only document # of long guns sold during the DROS process, how can a serial number be tracked?

When does a form 4473 come into play, is that only for FFL transfers, and not dealer sales?
DROS is a state requirement and basically checks your background and gives you a ten day waiting period. Every DROSed gun(s) must be accompanied by a 4473. On the 4473 it lists make, model, serial number, type, caliber. In addition to the 4473, every dealer must keep a "bound book" that shows every gun that comes in and every gun that goes out. If you buy a gun from me, the 4473 will show what you bought and my bound book will have an entry showing your name and the number I assigned your 4473 (I started with 0001-05 last year and now that is is 06 I am on DROS #0310-06 showing it is 06. Next year I will go to #0311-07. Lowers started at L-001 and continue on to this day, I didn't expect lowers to go past two weeks!)

vikingshelmut
12-20-2006, 10:38 AM
Ok, so even though the DROS itself does not register the serial number, the form 4473 does, and is required for all purchases in CA. That makes sense. I've heard people state otherwise, so it seems they are misinformed.

GUNS4WORK
12-20-2006, 11:01 AM
THE CHAIR IS AGAINST THE WALL... O MY GOD.... wait does that mean to mobilize the militia or to wash the car. i can't find my code book. help!

tenpercentfirearms
12-20-2006, 11:08 AM
Ok, so even though the DROS itself does not register the serial number, the form 4473 does, and is required for all purchases in CA. That makes sense. I've heard people state otherwise, so it seems they are misinformed.
Remember, the DROS data is the only thing that is "transmitted". That means all 4473s and other hard copies only remain at the FFLs phyical location. In order for the government to do a trace, they must do footwork and go out and physically visit the gun shop. There are some storage requirements for length of time, but I have no idea what they are and don't really care. It will be at least 10 years before I start caring if I can throw things out or not.

grywlfbg
12-20-2006, 11:42 AM
So that means that since SJGE is losing its FFL at the end of the year they're going to box up all theirs records and send it to the DoJ? Don't like the sound of that :(

tenpercentfirearms
12-20-2006, 11:57 AM
So that means that since SJGE is losing its FFL at the end of the year they're going to box up all theirs records and send it to the DoJ? Don't like the sound of that :(
I don't know if they have to send them to the DOJ or not. They might have to go to the feds. If the feds don't want them then you send them to the DOJ. I bet they go into a big storage area somewhere and sit there until someone feels like looking at them.

capitol
12-20-2006, 12:06 PM
What if a DOJ agent makes a visit to an ffl, asks for very specific info of MANY people who recently purchased firearms from him. What if the DOJ agent even photo copied the requested info. Is the ffl required to give the requested info to the agent?

tenpercentfirearms
12-20-2006, 12:19 PM
What if a DOJ agent makes a visit to an ffl, asks for very specific info of MANY people who recently purchased firearms from him. What if the DOJ agent even photo copied the requested info. Is the ffl required to give the requested info to the agent?
Good question. I guess if the FFL was young and dumb enough, it might work.

capitol
12-20-2006, 12:24 PM
:D :p

xenophobe
12-20-2006, 1:44 PM
We're having a hot debate about what kind of records are kept for a long-gun sale.

What do they store? how long do they store it?

I thought there was a certain timelimit they can keep the record, like one year.

Essentially the disagreement is what kind of information is stored and available.
My belief was that the DROS records are only available for so long, then destroyed.
The other person is saying that he's doubting that they're deleting all proof of sale etc.


The records a dealer needs to keep for a long gun transaction:

State: Bill of Sale ,DROS printout with right thumbprint, copy of ID, safe affidavit/lock purchase reciept for 3 years. After 3 years these records may be destroyed.

Federal: 4473, including supporting documents, resident alien proof of 90 days continuous residency, non-resident alien proof of residency and hunting license. FFL must maintain records for the last 20 consecutive years.

So a long gun isn't registered, the DROS information is not kept by the state on an individual after 15 days, but the ATF can still trace a long gun if they choose.

xenophobe
12-20-2006, 1:45 PM
So that means that since SJGE is losing its FFL at the end of the year they're going to box up all theirs records and send it to the DoJ? Don't like the sound of that :(

There is no requirement to send in State paperwork. The 4473's must be sent to the ATF for storage.

hoffmang
12-20-2006, 3:32 PM
To reiterate what Xeno said, the DOJ references in the thread are a bit mixed. CA DOJ gets the DROS with number of long guns and no more data. The FFL is required to keep the 4473 and his log book with firearm serial numbers. If he goes out of business he sends the 4473's and the log book to US BATF, not CA.

-Gene

E Pluribus Unum
12-21-2006, 9:30 AM
To reiterate what Xeno said, the DOJ references in the thread are a bit mixed. CA DOJ gets the DROS with number of long guns and no more data. The FFL is required to keep the 4473 and his log book with firearm serial numbers. If he goes out of business he sends the 4473's and the log book to US BATF, not CA.

-Gene

Thank you for the correction.

Just to point out... LEOs must have the gun info to trace who bought it.
There was a lawsuit a few years ago to force DOJ to destroy their records after 30 days. After the 15-30 day period they have no idea how many long guns you have purchased. If your gun is recovered in a crime they can however backtrack and figure out who bought it.