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jdberger
06-14-2011, 10:14 AM
It MUST be grant writing season.

VPC's intrepid researcher, Tom Diaz has determined that the Gun Industry operates as a command economy wherein the Manufacturers determine what the consumers should buy (http://www.vpc.org/press/1106atf.htm)..... and us poor sheeplike gunfolk just knuckle under and follow the bidding of our masters.... (totally sounds like most gunnies I know :rolleyes:).

Perhaps he's ignorant of the fact that gun folks simply like guns. When Mausers were available, we bought those. When Garands were easy to find, we bought those. Same with Carbines, Colt SAAs, Henry rifles, 1911s, M92s.... what a list!

But then again - it would be hard to beg for Joyce dollars with a report that simply stated, "Americans like guns. They're buying a bunch of them."

curtisfong
06-14-2011, 10:21 AM
But we're supposed to want useless guns! Only a crazed nutjob would want effective tools. Those dastardly manufacturers and their conspiracy to provide tools with the best utility!

curtisfong
06-14-2011, 10:23 AM
“Semiautomatic assault weapons--especially inexpensive AK-47 type imports--are increasingly used in attacks against law enforcement officers in the United States.”


Really? Got a source, Marty Langley?

Somebody want to give this idiot a call and ask?

Marty Langley
Violence Policy Center
(202) 822-8200 x109

robcoe
06-14-2011, 10:31 AM
The study describes how, plagued by declining gun ownership and the explosion of recreational alternatives such as electronic games, the faltering gun industry has relied on creating demand by designing and selling increasingly lethal military-style firepower.

Define military style, I own 2 formerly military guns, but they are both bolt action rifles(M91/30s), the Semi-auto rifle I have was(as far as I know) never used by any military, a Ruger Mini-14.

Weapons capable of defeating body armor

This argument always makes me want to puke. Let's test an FN5.7 handgun with the normal civilian rounds against body armor, then try my marlin 30-30 or Mosin-Nagant Model 1891 against the same type of body armor, see which the armor holds up to better.

ChuangTzu
06-14-2011, 10:36 AM
Today, militarized weapons--semiautomatic assault rifles, 50 caliber anti-armor sniper rifles, and armor-piercing handguns--define the U.S. civilian gun market and are far and away the ‘weapons of choice’ of the traffickers supplying violent drug organizations in Mexico

What's an armor-piercing handgun and where can I get one?

Is it just a handgun with a sharpened barrel that makes it easier to poke through a vest? :stuart:

schneiderguy
06-14-2011, 10:38 AM
Define military style, I own 2 formerly military guns, but they are both bolt action rifles(M91/30s), the Semi-auto rifle I have was(as far as I know) never used by any military, a Ruger Mini-14.



According to Wikipedia the Bermuda military uses them. I'll take that dangerous military style weapon off your hands for you if you want me to :D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mini_14#Users

shocknm
06-14-2011, 10:39 AM
Here's a study they should've done instead...

"VPC Study: Militarization of Civilian LAW ENFORCEMENT"

robcoe
06-14-2011, 10:39 AM
What's an armor-piercing handgun and where can I get one?

Is it just a handgun with a sharpened barrel that makes it easier to poke through a vest? :stuart:

According to the VPC or Bradys an armor piercing handgun is any gun that can be carried by a human and firing a round capable of penetrating 2 layers of aluminum foil.

robcoe
06-14-2011, 10:44 AM
According to Wikipedia the Bermuda military uses them. I'll take that dangerous military style weapon off your hands for you if you want me to :D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mini_14#Users

Ah yes, I forgot about the feared Bermuda equivalent of the national guard.

The Shadow
06-14-2011, 10:45 AM
“Your grandfather’s shotgun has no place in today’s civilian gun market,” said the study’s author, VPC Senior Policy Analyst Tom Diaz.

Never interrupt an idiot, when he's on a roll and proving to everyone around him how much of an idiot he really is.

PatriotnMore
06-14-2011, 10:45 AM
It MUST be grant writing season.

VPC's intrepid researcher, Tom Diaz has determined that the Gun Industry operates as a command economy wherein the Manufacturers determine what the consumers should buy (http://www.vpc.org/press/1106atf.htm)..... and us poor sheeplike gunfolk just knuckle under and follow the bidding of our masters.... (totally sounds like most gunnies I know :rolleyes:).

Perhaps he's ignorant of the fact that gun folks simply like guns. When Mausers were available, we bought those. When Garands were easy to find, we bought those. Same with Carbines, Colt SAAs, Henry rifles, 1911s, M92s.... what a list!

But then again - it would be hard to beg for Joyce dollars with a report that simply stated, "Americans like guns. They're buying a bunch of them."

I don't buy that. Personally, I think people are more worried about the future of America, the unconstitutional power grab of the Federal government, State governments doing what is best for a vote and unions over what is best for the people, and see the militarization of LE entities, at the federal and state level. People want what is going to be useful if a gun is ever needed at some point in the future. The AR15, AK and other battle rifles have been available for decades, but it is only recently that their popularity has taken off.

wash
06-14-2011, 10:56 AM
Shades of gunwalker here.

Forbidden fruit tastes sweeter. They only have their stupid "assault weapon" bans to blame.

safewaysecurity
06-14-2011, 11:03 AM
Armor piercing handguns....

ldsnet
06-14-2011, 11:17 AM
I tried to read their story and the "study" and almost lost my lunch. And to think there are many who will read this garbage and take it as the TRUTH!

The fact that the most popular rifle on the market is patterned after a 40 year old design is lost on them. People would not invest $1000 in a tool that didn't function as it was supposed to.

Wherryj
06-14-2011, 11:40 AM
But we're supposed to want useless guns! Only a crazed nutjob would want effective tools. Those dastardly manufacturers and their conspiracy to provide tools with the best utility!

They're no better than those dastardly guys in the automotive industry, what with their offering Mustangs with 500 BHP in a callous attempt to lure us away from the gawd awful econobox Prius (no offense meant to Prius drivers-all offense meant to the Prius itself).

Stonewalker
06-14-2011, 11:43 AM
hahahahahhaHAHAHAHAHAHAHhahah! Oh man, look at this gem from their "report"

Electronic entertainment like Nintendo’s Super Mario series of video games
threatens the gun industry’s crucial “youth market.”
pp.8

Stonewalker
06-14-2011, 11:48 AM
But we're supposed to want useless guns! Only a crazed nutjob would want effective tools. Those dastardly manufacturers and their conspiracy to provide tools with the best utility!

From the report:
Gun Industry Solution: Generating Demand with New and More Lethal Designs. In order to entice new gun owners into its shrinking pool of customers—and to motivate gun owners already in the pool to buy more guns—the gun industry seeks to create innovative products that offer new features and appeal to consumer trends. The industry itself deliberately creates these consumer trends.
pp.14

So I guess they are suggesting that all the old guns that were made before the NRA got involved were LESS LETHAL somehow? Semi-automatic technology has been around for over 100 years. I wonder what they think exactly has changed to make guns be more lethal and yet stay semi-automatic?

Bhobbs
06-14-2011, 11:50 AM
^^^ I guess they don't believe in making newer and better products.

G60
06-14-2011, 11:53 AM
hahahahahhaHAHAHAHAHAHAHhahah! Oh man, look at this gem from their "report"


pp.8

Wonder what would happen if the VPC found out what the highest grossing/most popular video game franchises have been for the last few years. (hint: most of them have you looking through glass sights all the time)

What a cute little feel-good report.

wash
06-14-2011, 12:00 PM
Well they all believe the NRA is run by gun manufacturers.

They miss the fact that some political things that Smith & Wesson and Ruger did in the last couple of decades got gun owners mad enough to boycott their product for years.

The people pissed off at S&W and Ruger were not pissed off at the NRA (or other gun rights organizations).

Also, as a child that grew up at the same time as the video game industry, Super Mario Bros. did not make me want guns any less, despite the fact that Duck Hunt was not all that great.

zhyla
06-14-2011, 12:02 PM
According to their study, Mossberg manufactures a "tactical .22 assault rifle". Now that's just funny. But my favorite (p35):

... Mini-14 Tactical Rifle is consderably more assault rifle-y in features and appearance...

It's really a pretty thin document, mostly it's firearms advertisements that show how scary/military various guns are. There are a few surprises though, it is worth a skim.

Stonewalker
06-14-2011, 12:04 PM
Wonder what would happen if the VPC found out what the highest grossing/most popular video game franchises have been for the last few years. (hint: most of them have you looking through glass sights all the time)

What a cute little feel-good report.

I know! I was wondering about that myself. I grew up playing CounterStrike and I know a lot of other shooters who did as well.

I found one reason why they think new semi-automatics are deadly as opposed to revolvers:
The switch from revolvers to high-capacity pistols dramatically enhanced handgun lethality. As Jane’s Infantry Weapons observed in the early 1980s, revolvers are “bulky,” “generally limited to six rounds,” take a “long time to reload,” and produce low muzzle velocity.
I didn't realize that revolvers produce lower muzzle velocities... even though significantly more energy is directed toward the bullet than in semi-automatics... huh.

Stonewalker
06-14-2011, 12:21 PM
This might be the biggest flaw in the argument against "Assault Weapons":

The world’s armies developed assault weapons to meet specific combat needs. All assault weapons—military and civilian alike—incorporate specific features that were designed for laying down a high volume of fire over a wide killing zone. This is sometimes known as “hosing down” an area. Civilian assault weapons feature the specific military design features that make spray-firing easy and distinguish assault weapons from traditional sporting firearms. The most important of these design features are—
High-capacity detachable ammunition magazines that hold as many as 75 rounds of ammunition.
A rear pistol grip (handle), including so-called “thumbhole stocks” and magazines that function like pistol grips.
A forward grip or barrel shroud. Forward grips (located under the barrel or the forward stock) give a shooter greater control over a weapon during firing.



There's a problem with that though, semi-automatic firearms were not designed to lay suppressive fire. They ONLY thing you do with semi-automatic firearms is careful, targeted shooting.

Look, they try to supplement their argument by using this quote:
A gun industry observer summed up the design in September 2009:
From the minute you get your first modern, AR-style rifle, the first thing that you notice is the fact that it truly is one of the most ergonomic long guns you'll ever put to your shoulder. Makes sense, it was designed to take young men, many of whom had never fired a gun of any sort before, and quickly make them capable of running the rifle—effectively—in the most extreme duress, armed combat.30

As if EASE-OF-USE correlates with MEANT TO KILL LOTS OF PEOPLE QUICKLY

safewaysecurity
06-14-2011, 12:26 PM
Wasn't the AR designed for civilians before the military adopted it?

furyous68
06-14-2011, 12:40 PM
Wasn't the AR designed for civilians before the military adopted it?

I thought the AR was the civilian version of the M-16.. no select fire, semi-automatic, etc...

docflash
06-14-2011, 12:46 PM
Gun Industry Solution: Generating Demand with New and More Lethal Designs. In order to entice new gun owners into its shrinking pool of customers—and to motivate gun owners already in the pool to buy more guns—the gun industry seeks to create innovative products that offer new features and appeal to consumer trends. The industry itself deliberately creates these consumer trends.


These guys are always saying that the number of gun owners is shrinking and that the industry is desperately trying to come up with schemes to entice us to buy more guns. Acording to the number of NICS checks, gun ownership is rising steadily.

If they were right, they should just let everything go and this whole "gun problem" would solve itself.

G60
06-14-2011, 12:57 PM
I know! I was wondering about that myself. I grew up playing CounterStrike and I know a lot of other shooters who did as well.

exactly. Sure, Mario bros will always remain popular with all age groups, but take a survey of 100 adolescent boys and ask them what their favorite video game is.

In 2010, COD grossed almost three times as much money as the second-best selling video game. I knew an FPS franchise would be #1 but even I was surprised at that number!
1. Call of Duty: Black Ops (Activision Blizzard) - Xbox 360, PS3, Wii, PC, DS -*$719.9M / 12.2M units
2. Madden NFL 11 (Electronic Arts) - Xbox 360, PS3, Wii, PS2, PSP*- $254.1M / 4.7M units

http://www.joystickdivision.com/2011/01/the_best-selling_video_games_o.php

RomanDad
06-14-2011, 1:00 PM
According to Wikipedia the Bermuda military uses them. I'll take that dangerous military style weapon off your hands for you if you want me to :D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mini_14#Users

Wow.... Im a big fan of their shorts.... Guess I should give their firearms a look as well.

jl123
06-14-2011, 1:06 PM
Here's a study they should've done instead...

"VPC Study: Militarization of Civilian LAW ENFORCEMENT"

Agreed.

yellowfin
06-14-2011, 1:08 PM
Wasn't the AR designed for civilians before the military adopted it?Curtis LeMay saw one at a picnic, shot it and loved it so he pushed the military adopting it.

robcoe
06-14-2011, 1:10 PM
The switch from revolvers to high-capacity pistols dramatically enhanced handgun lethality. As Jane’s Infantry Weapons observed in the early 1980s, revolvers are “bulky,” “generally limited to six rounds,” take a “long time to reload,” and produce low muzzle velocity.

http://img.chan4chan.com/img/2009-03-30/orly.jpg

I would love to see where it said that in Janes

admittedly it's not a real scientific study, but I was checking my .357 magnum reloads against some factory rounds, and with 125g bullets I was getting in the 1500-1600 FPS range with my .357. With 124g factory 9mm rounds I was getting around 1200 even the basic Blazer .357 did better than that.

Maybe "in the early 80's" Janes was saying everything backwards, or the VPC guy pulled it out of his ***.

You'll note in the actual PDF they released the "produced low muzzle velocity" is not actually in quotes.

nicki
06-14-2011, 1:13 PM
We just want the guns that our "Hollywood Heroes and Villians" use.

It is "Hollywood" that promotes what Americans want.

Afterall, how many "gangbangers" want Colt 45s?. They all want their Glock Fortays.

Perhaps VPC should tell their "Hollywood Donors" to cut the guns out of their movies.

Nicki

Wernher von Browning
06-14-2011, 1:13 PM
Is it just a handgun with a sharpened barrel that makes it easier to poke through a vest? :stuart:

Exactly.

http://oldsacramentolivinghistory.com/argonaut/sites/default/files/images/Pistol%20with%20Spring-Loaded%20Bayonet.JPG

yellowfin
06-14-2011, 1:16 PM
I wonder if it bothers the VPC that we mere civilians have canned food, M&M's, nylon, jeeps, Camelbaks, synthetic rubber tires, penicillin, computers, GPS, and dozens of other things also developed by the military over the centuries.

Mesa Tactical
06-14-2011, 1:24 PM
"Weapons of choice" has become such a joke phrase they actually put it in quotes themselves.

Are we being trolled?

Mesa Tactical
06-14-2011, 1:31 PM
Honestly, guys, we are being trolled. This document is a joke. I only got to page 2 so far, where they moan that, "The Barrett Firearms 50 caliber anti-armor sniper rifle used in combat (above) is sold without meaningful regulation in the U.S. civilian gun market." Surely the author of the study knows the rifle was first developed for the civilian market before being adopted by the US military.

Page 2! This is like something the Onion would write.

Bhobbs
06-14-2011, 1:36 PM
Honestly, guys, we are being trolled. This document is a joke. I only got to page 2 so far, where they moan that, "The Barrett Firearms 50 caliber anti-armor sniper rifle used in combat (above) is sold without meaningful regulation in the U.S. civilian gun market." Surely the author of the study knows the rifle was first developed for the civilian market before being adopted by the US military.

Page 2! This is like something the Onion would write.

Not to mention there are no recorded uses of .50s in crime in the US.

FullMetalJacket
06-14-2011, 1:37 PM
I'm sure the Brits in 1775 would've preferred that colonial civilians didn't have "military-style" firearms...

Mesa Tactical
06-14-2011, 1:44 PM
I'm not usually the sort of guy to jump into a Brady or VPC pile-on. After all, the gun rights lobby can muster up some pretty silly rhetoric too. But the sponsors of this study must really be drinking the Kool-Aid if this is something they are proud and willing to promulgate in their name. I just skimmed through it and holy cow would it be a terrible resource for anyone, like a journalist or public policy advocate, seeking to advance the cause of gun control. Anyone standing up an uttering "facts" from this document as if they were true would look like a complete fool to anyone with the slightest knowledge about firearms.

I guess they just have a completely different mindset. If I was engaged in a war of words, I would be more interested in pounding home the facts rather than spouting baseless propaganda. But then, plenty of revolutions have been won with baseless propaganda.

timdps
06-14-2011, 2:52 PM
What's an armor-piercing handgun and where can I get one?

Is it just a handgun with a sharpened barrel that makes it easier to poke through a vest? :stuart:

http://www.google.com/search?q=pistol+bayonet&hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&hs=hMd&sa=G&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=s&prmd=ivns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&ei=y-X3TZ-zEon6swOy88HeDA&ved=0CCcQsAQ&biw=1551&bih=814

timdps
06-14-2011, 2:57 PM
Here's a study they should've done instead...

"VPC Study: Militarization of Civilian LAW ENFORCEMENT"

I was thinking more along the lines of:

The militarization of the U.S. civilian gun market is a direct response to the militarization of U.S. civilian law enforcement.

Even though I doubt that there is any direct connection...

tim

robcoe
06-14-2011, 6:03 PM
Hm, just finished the .PDF, did not realize that there was a Tommy Gun pistol replica, might have to add that to the list for a single shot exempt purchase.

Dreaded Claymore
06-14-2011, 6:25 PM
I was thinking more along the lines of:

The militarization of the U.S. civilian gun market is a direct response to the militarization of U.S. civilian law enforcement.

Even though I doubt that there is any direct connection...

tim

Massad Ayoob makes the case that in the United States, people choose hunting rifles based on what the military is using, and defensive handguns based on what the police are using. He says that pre-1986, people mostly used .38 Special revolvers, even though plenty of 9x19mm and .45 ACP autoloaders were available, because the police were using thirty-eights. Then when the police started carrying autoloaders, so did ordinary people.

Dreaded Claymore
06-14-2011, 6:29 PM
Electronic entertainment like Nintendo’s Super Mario series of video games
threatens the gun industry’s crucial “youth market.”

I suppose the Brady Campaign's next target will be "assault boots." These are boots that have no lawful walking or running purpose, but are expressly designed to allow the wearer to leap high into the air and stomp on the heads of as many people as possible.

You heard it here first, folks: the Brady Campaign supports Bowser's regime.

CaliforniaLiberal
06-14-2011, 6:29 PM
Here's the entire original VPC Report.

http://www.vpc.org/studies/militarization.pdf


Here is a pertinent section of the article.

"Increasing Attacks on Law Enforcement with Assault Weapons. A recent Violence
Policy Center study of reported incidents showed that more than one out of four assault
weapons incidents involve police. Moreover, the number of assault weapons incidents
involving police grew significantly between the two periods studied (March 1, 2005 to
February 28, 2006 and March 1, 2006 to February 28, 2007).53 "

Early in the report they explain that there are no accurate statistics on the subject they are discussing, so they took their facts and figures from a few anecdotal reports, the stated impression of some LEOs that there are more AKs involved in crimes and also from tabulating results from Google searches.

They have no statistics so they found some way to make them up and then claim that they are plausible.


This link is from footnote 53. / "53. For complete details, see Violence Policy Center, Target: Law Enforcement—Assault Weapons in the News (February 2010), www.vpc.org/studies/targetle.pdf."


http://www.vpc.org/studies/targetle.pdf

Here's the actual numbers. Note that the number of police fatalities involving AK47s is 4. Four. Which is 6% of the Incidents they found on Google.

As detailed in Figure 3: Outcome of Incidents Involving Law Enforcement, Deaths and
Injuries, of the 64 incidents involving law enforcement:
< There was at least one non-fatal law enforcement injury in 12 of the 64 reported
incidents (18.8 percent) involving law enforcement.
< There was at least one fatal law enforcement injury in four of the 64 reported
incidents (6.3 percent) involving law enforcement.
< Among the 64 reported incidents involving law enforcement, a shooter was
injured (not fatally) in six (9.4 percent) incidents.
< In 10 incidents (15.6 percent), shooters suffered fatal injuries. The shooter
committed suicide in an additional seven incidents (10.9 percent).

Arisaka
06-14-2011, 7:00 PM
What a bunch of ****ing idiots. Seriously. Gotta love how their "sources" are their own studies.... And how they are all bent on thumbhole stock MAK90's and all that (soooo '95). They actually have a great collection of AWB era advertisements though. Gotta love the Hungarian thumbole AK's for like $200. Man I miss those days.

G60
06-14-2011, 7:33 PM
Here's the entire original VPC Report.

http://www.vpc.org/studies/militarization.pdf




"The study was funded in part with the support of the David Bohnett Foundation..."

"The David Bohnett Foundation supports and encourages groups that promote the goals of reduction and elimination of the manufacture and sale of handguns in the U.S."

Of course that all goes without saying...
I don't know what I feel is worse, organizations like the Joyce Foundation, who want the same thing but hide it, or .org's like the Bohnett Foundation who aren't afraid to hide what they really want.

hoffmang
06-14-2011, 8:04 PM
There are so many quotes in this that prove that the AR and AK are the kinds of arms in common use for lawful purposes at this time! Thanks VPC! Coming soon to Gura briefing near you!

-Gene

Arisaka
06-14-2011, 8:10 PM
Gene's the man! Lock it!!

vintagearms
06-14-2011, 8:11 PM
Here's a study they should've done instead...

"VPC Study: Militarization of Civilian LAW ENFORCEMENT"

Exactly

Librarian
06-14-2011, 8:52 PM
"The study was funded in part with the support of the David Bohnett Foundation..."

"The David Bohnett Foundation supports and encourages groups that promote the goals of reduction and elimination of the manufacture and sale of handguns in the U.S."

Of course that all goes without saying...
I don't know what I feel is worse, organizations like the Joyce Foundation, who want the same thing but hide it, or .org's like the Bohnett Foundation who aren't afraid to hide what they really want.

Supports (http://www.bohnettfoundation.org/grants/index) Brady, VPC, LCAV, Harvard Injury Control Research Center (David Hemenway & co)

mag360
06-14-2011, 9:16 PM
Really? Got a source, Marty Langley?

Somebody want to give this idiot a call and ask?

Marty Langley
Violence Policy Center
(202) 822-8200 x109

ill call him in the morning, so should you!:D

hoffmang
06-14-2011, 9:38 PM
ill call him in the morning, so should you!:D

You should ask for his source and then thank him for making our cases easier!

-Gene

jdberger
06-14-2011, 10:41 PM
Please, oh please don't throw me in that briar patch!

mag360
06-14-2011, 10:44 PM
You should ask for his source and then thank him for making our cases easier!

-Gene

"Hi I'm calling in regards to the article you wrote"

"I'm concered about the increasing militarization of civilian police forces across the US. Have you looked into this?

"Hi i'm calling on the source in regards to the AK47 comment you made. I'd like to use this in a project I'm doing in regards to how organizations like yourself are making it easier for the pro-gun industry to make you guys come across as the crazy ones"

"Hi, I'm an NRA member, and YOU ARE LOSING. Nobody cares, and your statements are just made up hogwash with no basis. All guns are "military style" Insert Massad Ayoob quote. The end."

"Good morning, how does it feel to be an anti-civil rights leader?"

"Good morning, have you attended any Brady Campaign press conferences lately? oh, you haven't...apparently nobody else does either"

"so 48 other states have NO ISSUE with "california's assault weapons ban", they call them guns, it has not reduced crime, do you think it is good policy? why?"

:rolleyes:

Falconis
06-14-2011, 11:35 PM
We just want the guns that our "Hollywood Heroes and Villians" use.

It is "Hollywood" that promotes what Americans want.

Afterall, how many "gangbangers" want Colt 45s?. They all want their Glock Fortays.

Perhaps VPC should tell their "Hollywood Donors" to cut the guns out of their movies.

Nicki

Spielberg is already doing that. Seen the reworked ET?

and can anyone remember the Desert Eagle Craze? What movie started that one?

RRangel
06-15-2011, 4:16 AM
The term "researcher" in regard to Tom Diaz is a stretch. More like supreme liar. Heck, that's too kind. You can believe him as far as you can throw him. Probably even less.

Noxx
06-15-2011, 6:07 AM
I always get a kick out of the "newer, more lethal" drumbeat.

It's hard to get "more" lethal than the battle rifles of yore. Newer generally = lighter, more efficient, but more lethal? Hows that body armor stacking up against the 8mm Mauser these days? Not very well, and I'm not volunteering to find out.

aklover_91
06-15-2011, 6:33 AM
I always get a kick out of the "newer, more lethal" drumbeat.

It's hard to get "more" lethal than the battle rifles of yore. Newer generally = lighter, more efficient, but more lethal? Hows that body armor stacking up against the 8mm Mauser these days? Not very well, and I'm not volunteering to find out.

I think those old fashioned Minet balls probably have them beat for sheer amount of bodily damage, for that matter.

Bhobbs
06-15-2011, 7:20 AM
I think those old fashioned Minet balls probably have them beat for sheer amount of bodily damage, for that matter.

vDX_Lc_FTm0

Here's a good vid showing a Minie Ball vs .30-06 M2 ball.

aklover_91
06-15-2011, 7:45 AM
Makes you wonder if hollow base wad cutters wouldn't make good defensive ammo.

Goosebrown
06-15-2011, 10:30 AM
My gun history... I grew up in the 1970's watching Kelly's Heros and always wanted K98s and Garands and Greese Guns. I never got interested in revolvers I wanted with the military had. I remember when I saw my first FN, it was amazing and although I couldn't afford it, I knew I wanted it. Even now all those old hunting rifles sit in the used rifle racks at the gun shop. Who wants a pre '64 30-06? A few of us, but even now when I bought my last rifles, I got two synthetic stock 700s. I am certainly influenced by what I see in the news and movies.

I do NOT think that the companies are driving sales, i think our buying preferences drive the company offerings.

Wherryj
06-15-2011, 11:13 AM
Massad Ayoob makes the case that in the United States, people choose hunting rifles based on what the military is using, and defensive handguns based on what the police are using. He says that pre-1986, people mostly used .38 Special revolvers, even though plenty of 9x19mm and .45 ACP autoloaders were available, because the police were using thirty-eights. Then when the police started carrying autoloaders, so did ordinary people.

....ahhh, so what you are saying is that it isn't the "firearms industry" or the "NRA" that is militarizing civilian firearms, it is law enforcement. Wait, that won't sound very good in a soundbite or read well in a propaganda pamphlet...

yellowfin
06-15-2011, 2:35 PM
....ahhh, so what you are saying is that it isn't the "firearms industry" or the "NRA" that is militarizing civilian firearms, it is law enforcement. Wait, that won't sound very good in a soundbite or read well in a propaganda pamphlet...Yeah it will, actually, in one of OUR propaganda pamphlets, which needs to start outnumbering the antis' by 10 to 1.

CCWFacts
06-15-2011, 3:06 PM
The civilian gun market has been militarized for the past hundred years, at least.

Do they think that the idea of a breach-loading rifle was originally designed to make it easier to go hunting? Do they think that the bolt action was originally designed for target shooting? Do they think that magazine-feeding was originally marketed for civilian shooters? Revolvers were for the civilian market? Metalic cartridges? ALL of these inventions were for military use, and were later adopted by the civilian market, because the advantages that they confer to the military (accuracy, durability, ease of use) are equally desirable by civilians.

And what's more ALL of these inventions were considered "assault weapons" and inappropriate for civilian ownership when they were first introduced. ALL of them.

Veggie
06-15-2011, 4:01 PM
Shame on everyone who buys anything that is new.

wash
06-15-2011, 5:35 PM
I thought the lever action rifle firing metallic cartridges was a civilian development that was better than military arms of the day (think Custer) and wildly popular.

If military style arms are popular now, we've taken a step back from the days when mil-spec wasn't good enough.