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skeptik
06-12-2011, 5:28 PM
question about that... first off i would like to say that i have nothing to hide. if i am traveling with a locked container leaving from the range to home and have done nothing wrong, if an officer asks for the container to be unlocked and opened, do i legally have to open it? and does that go against the 4th amendment? Just curious. then scenario #2... theres ammo in the locked container.

as of right now i travel with my pistols locked up, my .22 rifle in a zip up case not locked and ammo in its can which doesnt have a lock as well. with in the law? too many questions? haha good cause i have plenty more, but ill save them for another thread

Connor P Price
06-12-2011, 5:31 PM
Your within the law. No need to open the container. If you open the container yourself there is no violation of the 4th, wait for your lawyer.

bussda
06-12-2011, 5:35 PM
if you told the officer there are guns in the case you may have to open the case for 12031(e) check, otherwise, no.

hoffmang
06-12-2011, 5:36 PM
CGF would really, really love a situation where a Calgunner who was doing nothing wrong required an officer to damage a case to get access. We'll even buy you a new case!

-Gene

WDE91
06-12-2011, 5:38 PM
Calguns foundation has bag tags that say the following

In case of encounter,detainment, or arrest
1 state that you do not wish to answer questions, then remain silent
2 do not consent to a search
3 demand an attorney
4 call CGF

On the back

NOTICE TO POLICE
The contents of this container are private
voluntary consent to search is not granted
a search warrant is required for access

With this info I would say
NO WARRANT NO ACCESS



#2 you are good to go
unloaded pistol in locked container GOOD
unloaded .22lr rifle in unlocked container can possibly be an issue
read this thread on the topic
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=436006
ammo does not need to be locked


If you have questions ask away
I know for me I would rather respond to newb questions than have a newb wearing an orange jumpsuit

bussda
06-12-2011, 5:39 PM
And put a lock on the rifle case unless you are 100% certain you will not be in a gun free school zone.

Zimz
06-12-2011, 5:40 PM
12031(e) applies to unloaded open carry, not transport of locked firearms.

Yugo
06-12-2011, 5:40 PM
doesnt his .22 rifle have to be locked in GFSZ? even driving by.

EDIT: came in too late. :rolleyes:

dantodd
06-12-2011, 5:44 PM
CGF would really, really love a situation where a Calgunner who was doing nothing wrong required an officer to damage a case to get access. We'll even buy you a new case!

-Gene

The problem with that is the most likely reason one would be compelled to open a locked case is because you've already admitted to being in possession of a gun and 12031(e) is pretty clear that you are compelled to permit a search. If you don't permit the search you can be arrested and convicted. The problem is unless you break the law by denying the search you won't know if the officer will break-in or arrest and wait for a search warrant. Or are you actually looking for people to refuse a 12031(e) check? I'm sure there are lots of Open Carriers who would be happy to carry along a "gun box" then refuse the search. Heck, it could have contents that are similar weight/density but are not firearms. Therefore the search denial isn't denying the 12031(e) check per se.

socal2310
06-12-2011, 5:45 PM
question about that... first off i would like to say that i have nothing to hide. if i am traveling with a locked container leaving from the range to home and have done nothing wrong, if an officer asks for the container to be unlocked and opened, do i legally have to open it? and does that go against the 4th amendment? Just curious. then scenario #2... theres ammo in the locked container.

as of right now i travel with my pistols locked up, my .22 rifle in a zip up case not locked and ammo in its can which doesnt have a lock as well. with in the law? too many questions? haha good cause i have plenty more, but ill save them for another thread

There is no requirement to lock ammunition and ammunition may be transported in the same container as the firearm as long as the firearm is unloaded (no loaded magazine in the well).

I'll wait for an expert opinion on the 12031(e) check: (e) In order to determine whether or not a firearm is loaded for the purpose of enforcing this section, peace officers are authorized to examine any firearm carried by anyone on his or her person or in a vehicle while in any public place or on any public street in an incorporated city or prohibited area of an unincorporated territory.

Refusal to allow a peace officer to inspect a firearm pursuant to this section constitutes probable cause for arrest for violation of this section.

On the one hand, the law expressly permits inspection of a firearm in a car to ensure it is unloaded. On the other hand, it implies a firearm being transported openly and there is no way for them to know there is a firearm in the locked case unless you (or your passenger) tell them.

Ryan

dantodd
06-12-2011, 5:45 PM
12031(e) applies to unloaded open carry, not transport of locked firearms.

Nope. It applies to any transport.

12031. (a)(1) A person is guilty of carrying a loaded firearm when he or she carries a loaded firearm on his or her person or in a vehicle while in any public place or on any public street in an incorporated city or in any public place or on any public street in a prohibited area of unincorporated territory.

Note, there is no limitation to openly carrying. Any carry; including a locked case. Even in your car. If you are asked if you have guns in your car and answer affirmatively you are then subject to 12031(e) which says...

12031(e) In order to determine whether or not a firearm is loaded for the purpose of enforcing this section, peace officers are authorized to examine any firearm carried by anyone on his or her person or in a vehicle while in any public place or on any public street in an incorporated city or prohibited area of an unincorporated territory. Refusal to allow a peace officer to inspect a firearm pursuant to this section constitutes probable cause for arrest for violation of this section.

Note: "on his or her person or in a vehicle"

paul0660
06-12-2011, 5:45 PM
12031(e) applies to unloaded open carry, not transport of locked firearms.

It applies if the gun owner admits to possessing firearms when asked.

doesnt his .22 rifle have to be locked in GFSZ? even driving by.


Federal law says yes, state law says not necessary.

bussda
06-12-2011, 5:45 PM
12031(e) applies to unloaded open carry, not transport of locked firearms.

I thought so too, but it applies to verifying unloaded with a few exceptions with regard to location. Read the statue.

hoffmang
06-12-2011, 5:53 PM
The problem with that is the most likely reason one would be compelled to open a locked case is because you've already admitted to being in possession of a gun and 12031(e) is pretty clear that you are compelled to permit a search.

Don't confuse a statue with the Fourth Amendment. There are very particular reasons I want a case forced.

-Gene

dantodd
06-12-2011, 5:58 PM
Don't confuse a statue with the Fourth Amendment. There are very particular reasons I want a case forced.

-Gene

I understand completely. I was just wondering exactly what CGF would "love" to have. I am sure there are more than a few folks who would be willing to deny a locked case 12031(e) search request but the standing orders HAD been to not violate statute specifically to be a test case.

paul0660
06-12-2011, 6:00 PM
I thought so too, but it applies to verifying unloaded with a few exceptions with regard to location. Read the statue.

(e) In order to determine whether or not a firearm is loaded for
the purpose of enforcing this section, peace officers are authorized
to examine any firearm carried by anyone on his or her person or in a
vehicle while in any public place or on any public street in an
incorporated city or prohibited area of an unincorporated territory.
Refusal to allow a peace officer to inspect a firearm pursuant to
this section constitutes probable cause for arrest for violation of
this section.

Not sure what I am missing. It seems to me if you tell the cops what and where it is, you have to present it for inspection, and maybe not even where it is.

But it's been a long weekend...............

G-forceJunkie
06-12-2011, 6:03 PM
So, if an officer asks do you have a firearm in your locked case, is it legal to say "NO" ??? Even if it is obviously a weapons style or marked case?

skeptik
06-12-2011, 6:03 PM
you guys are awesome, quick too! so as long as the pistols are unloaded with an empty magazine i am good to go? what if i have loaded magazines locked in the container but not in the gun?

skeptik
06-12-2011, 6:05 PM
curious about this too... So, if an officer asks do you have a firearm in your locked case, is it legal to say "NO" ??? Even if it is obviously a weapons style or marked case?

dantodd
06-12-2011, 6:06 PM
you guys are awesome, quick too! so as long as the pistols are unloaded with an empty magazine i am good to go? what if i have loaded magazines locked in the container but not in the gun?

Not a problem. As long as the rounds are not inside the magazine inserted in the mag well they can be in the same bag. I usually carry mine in the magazine pouches on the outside of the bag, there is no requirement that the ammunition be locked up and I don't want the gun and magazines to be banging against each other.

dantodd
06-12-2011, 6:07 PM
So, if an officer asks do you have a firearm in your locked case, is it legal to say "NO" ??? Even if it is obviously a weapons style or marked case?

Sure. You can lie to any non-federal cop all you want.

I open carry
06-12-2011, 6:07 PM
Just say, I have nothing illegal in the car, and STFU

Cokebottle
06-12-2011, 6:08 PM
I understand completely. I was just wondering exactly what CGF would "love" to have. I am sure there are more than a few folks who would be willing to deny a locked case 12031(e) search request but the standing orders HAD been to not violate statute specifically to be a test case.
"Test case" would imply that one is carrying loaded illegally.

In this case, the only charges that could likely be leveled would be 148PC, which would be flimsy at best (but is often abused by LAPD).

For this to work, the person stopped would need to assert 100% of their 4A/5A... refusal to answer any questions. Don't lie to the cop, don't admit to having firearms in the vehicle, and don't consent to a search.
If that is followed, the officer does not have PC for a search or an e-check.

The Shadow
06-12-2011, 6:11 PM
The problem with that is the most likely reason one would be compelled to open a locked case is because you've already admitted to being in possession of a gun and 12031(e) is pretty clear that you are compelled to permit a search.

That's not necessarily true. Some cops are just nosy and they will try and Bu:censored:it their way into a case. If they ask, and you want to be polite, just tell them it's personal property. If you don't care, tell them it's none of their business.

Cokebottle
06-12-2011, 6:12 PM
Even more fun?

Carry a pistol case... visible... in your vehicle 24/7.
Carry a couple of shot-up targets, ammo can, NRA sticker, Gasden flag, and other "paraphernalia" that a cop could claim to use for PC.

Empty ammo can, and nothing in the locked pistol case but a couple of dildoes... with the batteries in the case but separate so they are not loaded.

Make video and audio records.

What's in the case?
Personal items.

dantodd
06-12-2011, 6:14 PM
"Test case" would imply that one is carrying loaded illegally.



No, it wouldn't.

12031(e) .. Refusal to allow a peace officer to inspect a firearm pursuant to
this section constitutes probable cause for arrest for violation of
this section.

It doesn't say, refusal to allow inspection of loaded firearms, just ANY firearm. That is why I suggested a Open Carry along with an obvious gun case of a similar weight but not containing a firearm. Then your refusal would not be a violation but a mere refusal of a search. The fact that they "used" 12031(e) to effect the search is handy for killing it but since there is no handgun there is no actual violation in your refusal.

bussda
06-12-2011, 6:14 PM
Not sure what I am missing. It seems to me if you tell the cops what and where it is, you have to present it for inspection, and maybe not even where it is.

But it's been a long weekend...............

Except 12031(e) only applies when vehicle in public place, on public street in incorporated area or proibited area of unincorporated area.

The Shadow
06-12-2011, 6:14 PM
Even more fun?

Carry a pistol case... visible... in your vehicle 24/7.
Carry a couple of shot-up targets, ammo can, NRA sticker, Gasden flag, and other "paraphernalia" that a cop could claim to use for PC.

Empty ammo can, and nothing in the locked pistol case but a couple of dildoes... with the batteries in the case but separate so they are not loaded.

Make video and audio records.

What's in the case?
Personal items.

I'd use air soft guns just to make it more interesting. :43:

Tripper
06-12-2011, 6:17 PM
CGF would really, really love a situation where a Calgunner who was doing nothing wrong required an officer to damage a case to get access. We'll even buy you a new case!

-Gene

Can you refuse the 12031e based on the locked container? I can't imagine a claim of officer safety due to a locked container

But the 148 would glare I'm sure

socal2310
06-12-2011, 6:17 PM
So, if an officer asks do you have a firearm in your locked case, is it legal to say "NO" ??? Even if it is obviously a weapons style or marked case?

It is perfectly legal to lie to the officer unless you are thereby impeding an investigation. Whether it would be wise to do so... I'm undecided. On the other hand, a flat out lie would be far preferable to an obvious evasion. The fact that the case is marked does nothing to establish that there is in fact a weapon in said case.

Ryan

paul0660
06-12-2011, 6:19 PM
Except 12031(e) only applies when vehicle in public place, on public street in incorporated area or proibited area of unincorporated area.

Which, unless you live in the sticks, as I do, is everywhere........and most of the places I drive as well.........not legal to shoot from or across any road.

G1500
06-12-2011, 6:27 PM
Even more fun?

Carry a pistol case... visible... in your vehicle 24/7.
Carry a couple of shot-up targets, ammo can, NRA sticker, Gasden flag, and other "paraphernalia" that a cop could claim to use for PC.

Empty ammo can, and nothing in the locked pistol case but a couple of dildoes... with the batteries in the case but separate so they are not loaded.

Make video and audio records.

What's in the case?
Personal items.

I'd use air soft guns just to make it more interesting. :43:

No way, having the officer forcefully open a case containing dildos would be the funniest thing I've ever seen.

If anyone plan's on doing this, Please let me know, I would love to have HD video recordings. :rofl2:

Connor P Price
06-12-2011, 6:27 PM
I've carried non-firearm items in cases marked with firearm logos. I've also carried firearms in cases that nobody would expect a firearm to be in.

A glock case would make a great lunchbox, the logo does not provide probable cause for a search.

bussda
06-12-2011, 6:28 PM
So, if an officer asks do you have a firearm in your locked case, is it legal to say "NO" ??? Even if it is obviously a weapons style or marked case?

While you can say no, it is far better to respectfully not answer the question.

Paul S
06-12-2011, 6:31 PM
Even more fun?

Carry a pistol case... visible... in your vehicle 24/7.
Carry a couple of shot-up targets, ammo can, NRA sticker, Gasden flag, and other "paraphernalia" that a cop could claim to use for PC.

Empty ammo can, and nothing in the locked pistol case but a couple of dildoes... with the batteries in the case but separate so they are not loaded.

Make video and audio records.

What's in the case?
Personal items.


You sir are EVIL .....I love it. :p

Tripper
06-12-2011, 6:32 PM
officer speaking: do you have any guns
me: are you investigating a crime
officer: no
me: no

== I think, following that, i can lie, without impeding/obstructing an investigation, therefore, cannot be charged with 148.
it seems it woulkd be rather difficult, for an officer then to claim 148 (obstruct/impede) if he just said he is not conducting an investigation
of course, he can lie, it wont look good on the stand though, when he states outright that he lied to get me to lie.

note to gene: dont tempt me

safewaysecurity
06-12-2011, 6:35 PM
CGF would really, really love a situation where a Calgunner who was doing nothing wrong required an officer to damage a case to get access. We'll even buy you a new case!

-Gene

Do you mean if you've told the officer if there is a gun inside and then telling him that if he wants to check it he has to break the case? Or if you never told him anything and he just wants to see inside it and just snatches it without consent and breaks it open?

hoffmang
06-12-2011, 6:52 PM
Do you mean if you've told the officer if there is a gun inside and then telling him that if he wants to check it he has to break the case? Or if you never told him anything and he just wants to see inside it and just snatches it without consent and breaks it open?

Either works but the latter is better.

Don't do this if:

1. You're UOCing.
2. Have other contraband in the car.
3. Can't risk being arrested.

Otherwise, we have your back on a locked container where the firearms are properly unloaded.

-Gene

Rossi357
06-12-2011, 7:04 PM
Just say, I have nothing illegal in the car, and STFU

This

CitaDeL
06-12-2011, 7:18 PM
Either works but the latter is better.

Don't do this if:

1. You're UOCing.
2. Have other contraband in the car.
3. Can't risk being arrested.

Otherwise, we have your back on a locked container where the firearms are properly unloaded.

-Gene

#1 Makes sense from the perspective that this is LUCC- but I gather that you mean LUCC not in conjunction with UOC compliance to 626.9 or any other transition to or from cased transportation- ie; no belt holster present, ammunition being carried in mag pouches. Just an unloaded gun in a locked case.

glockwise2000
06-12-2011, 7:22 PM
And put a lock on the rifle case unless you are 100% certain you will not be in a gun free school zone.

I guess it depends. If you are travelling in a car with a trunk, the trunk itself constitue a locked container granting that there is no access between the cabin and the trunk, or if there is, the access is key, combination or similar locked.

MrSigmaDOT40
06-12-2011, 7:24 PM
Even more fun?

Carry a pistol case... visible... in your vehicle 24/7.
Carry a couple of shot-up targets, ammo can, NRA sticker, Gasden flag, and other "paraphernalia" that a cop could claim to use for PC.

Empty ammo can, and nothing in the locked pistol case but a couple of dildoes... with the batteries in the case but separate so they are not loaded.

Make video and audio records.

What's in the case?
Personal items.


:laugh: LOLOL Brilliant i tell you!!

mrdd
06-12-2011, 7:30 PM
I guess it depends. If you are travelling in a car with a trunk, the trunk itself constitue a locked container granting that there is no access between the cabin and the trunk, or if there is, the access is key, combination or similar locked.

Just don't get a flat tire!

hoffmang
06-12-2011, 7:38 PM
#1 Makes sense from the perspective that this is LUCC- but I gather that you mean LUCC not in conjunction with UOC compliance to 626.9 or any other transition to or from cased transportation- ie; no belt holster present, ammunition being carried in mag pouches. Just an unloaded gun in a locked case.

Mainly I am saying that I don't think it smart to refuse a 12031(e) check while UOCing (holster) without video cameras, a briefcase full of cash carried by an attorney nearby, etc... I don't want physical injury to come to someone.

However, if you've been pulled over and the officer is being a pain and you have a bit of flexibility over the next 24 hours, clearly and plainly deny him access to your locked container. Bonus points if you're recording.

-Gene

ilkhan
06-12-2011, 7:50 PM
Don't confuse a statue with the Fourth Amendment. There are very particular reasons I want a case forced.

-Gene
How is a statute that says explicitly that refusing an otherwise unlawful search is probable cause by itself for a search not held in blatantly violation of the 5th?

NoJoke
06-12-2011, 7:52 PM
Calguns foundation has bag tags that say the following

In case of encounter,detainment, or arrest
1 state that you do not wish to answer questions, then remain silent
2 do not consent to a search
3 demand an attorney
4 call CGF

On the back

NOTICE TO POLICE
The contents of this container are private
voluntary consent to search is not granted
a search warrant is required for access

With this info I would say

They're sold out. :(

http://www.cgfstore.org/product/cgf-safe-magnet

pgg
06-12-2011, 7:56 PM
Carry a pistol case... visible... in your vehicle 24/7.

:laugh: LOLOL Brilliant i tell you!!

Brilliant until someone smashes your car window to steal that juicy target.

Wonder if the cop who came to take the police report would be able to keep a straight face as you told him you kept a gun case full of dildos in your car 24/7 ... :D

WDE91
06-12-2011, 8:02 PM
They're sold out. :(

http://www.cgfstore.org/product/cgf-safe-magnet

no what I have is more of a luggage tag idea
ok found it
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=430892
I picked it up at the Calguns booth at the Raahauges shooting fair

though I think I may need to pick up one of those magnets for the safe when they get back in stock :)

Tripper
06-12-2011, 8:06 PM
magnets, so officer A can remove said magnet, while officer B says blatantly and honestly, "there was nothing saying not to"
Sticker, I say, with camera (hidden), and multiple, off-site recording.

Tripper
06-12-2011, 8:07 PM
I'm just being mean, officers dont generally do that kind of thing.

CitaDeL
06-12-2011, 8:10 PM
Mainly I am saying that I don't think it smart to refuse a 12031(e) check while UOCing (holster) without video cameras, a briefcase full of cash carried by an attorney nearby, etc... I don't want physical injury to come to someone.

However, if you've been pulled over and the officer is being a pain and you have a bit of flexibility over the next 24 hours, clearly and plainly deny him access to your locked container. Bonus points if you're recording.

-Gene

Call me an instigator, but what if there is all the window dressing of UOC- like a holster, mag pouches, a recorder running, an empty locked case and no firearm present? That'd be wholly a 4th amendment issue.

I should probably stop with the hypotheticals...:rolleyes:

Tripper
06-12-2011, 8:19 PM
I always have a locked Glock tupperware box under my seat (its what fits really well), just in case I find myself in a situation that i need to have a locking container. and it happens.
the bright yellow child safety lock can stick out pretty noticeably, if I dont keep an eye on it

Cokebottle
06-12-2011, 8:25 PM
Call me an instigator, but what if there is all the window dressing of UOC- like a holster, mag pouches, a recorder running, an empty locked case and no firearm present? That'd be wholly a 4th amendment issue.
That was kinda my point with the dildoes in the pistol case and empty ammo cans.

oni.dori
06-12-2011, 8:30 PM
Don't confuse a statue with the Fourth Amendment. There are very particular reasons I want a case forced.

-Gene

God I love it when you have tricks up your sleeve, even before the situation has arisen!!

Disgruntled Gunny
06-12-2011, 8:31 PM
I have an suv with a few firearm stickers on the rear window. I keep a large pelican case in the back, also covered with stickers, locked, and secured to the floor of my suv.

With dark windows, you can't see the case, but the past 2 times I was pulled over, I rolled down all windows, and the case is suddenly visible to the officers.

Both asked what the case was for, both asked what was inside, and neither got an answer other than "my toys". Both asked me to open the case, and neither got to see the contents.

Peter.Steele
06-12-2011, 8:35 PM
Either works but the latter is better.

Don't do this if:

1. You're UOCing.
2. Have other contraband in the car.
3. Can't risk being arrested.

Otherwise, we have your back on a locked container where the firearms are properly unloaded.

-Gene


So, here's a question ... I've been going for nice long walks lately. Lots of them. I'd like to start turning them into, say, ruck marches. Sort of.

So, let's say I've got a back pack with a cinder block in it, and a tactical rifle soft case bungeed to the top of the pack. Bag has a lock on it, and ... say, an M&P 15-22 in it.

I go for walks in a lot of areas that have a lot of police around, as a rule.

Is this the sort of thing that you'd be interested in?

Tripper
06-12-2011, 8:43 PM
I think it would also be a good idea to use whatevers in the case, as a rifle rest, all the time, so it has a really good gunpowder smell.

Tripper
06-12-2011, 8:43 PM
lol, setup the dildos in a y-frame...

Munk
06-12-2011, 9:11 PM
So, here's a question ... I've been going for nice long walks lately. Lots of them. I'd like to start turning them into, say, ruck marches. Sort of.

So, let's say I've got a back pack with a cinder block in it, and a tactical rifle soft case bungeed to the top of the pack. Bag has a lock on it, and ... say, an M&P 15-22 in it.

I go for walks in a lot of areas that have a lot of police around, as a rule.

Is this the sort of thing that you'd be interested in?

i'd say bonus points for having no firearm, or a firearm substitute (large dildoes/airsoft/rabidbadger) etc... and they breach your bag without your permission on a 12031e check when there's no firearm to "e" check.

Don't forget your recorder.

I'm considering driving around myself with some nice locked lunchboxes that are repurposed beretta cases. Bastards better not spoil my sandwich.

hoffmang
06-12-2011, 10:14 PM
Call me an instigator, but what if there is all the window dressing of UOC- like a holster, mag pouches, a recorder running, an empty locked case and no firearm present? That'd be wholly a 4th amendment issue.

I should probably stop with the hypotheticals...:rolleyes:
Don't do this without deep co-ordination. With... different story. Let me noodle on timing and location.
So, let's say I've got a back pack with a cinder block in it, and a tactical rifle soft case bungeed to the top of the pack. Bag has a lock on it, and ... say, an M&P 15-22 in it.

You'd need to make sure that they can't get the bag open without causing real damage to the bag. I was shocked that TSA got into one of my zippered bags without removing the real lock (because there was a handgun in a locked hard case inside) and with no damage to the bag...

-Gene

Meplat
06-12-2011, 10:45 PM
For this to work, the person stopped would need to assert 100% of their 4A/5A... refusal to answer any questions. Don't lie to the cop, don't admit to having firearms in the vehicle, and don't consent to a search.
If that is followed, the officer does not have PC for a search or an e-check.

This is exactly the situation that I perceived Gene to be talking about. However, I wonder if the officer could gain some wiggle room by using the the fact that your case looked like an assault rifle case and was emblazoned in large letters "Colt AR-15". Could that be successfully construed as reasonable suspicion?

Gene?

hoffmang
06-12-2011, 10:48 PM
This is exactly the situation that I perceived Gene to be talking about. However, I wonder if the officer could gain some wiggle room by using the the fact that your case looked like an assault rifle case and was emblazoned in large letters "Colt AR-15". Could that be successfully construed as reasonable suspicion?

Gene?

That would work just fine or better.

Who labels their case "contraband?"

-Gene

Librarian
06-12-2011, 11:20 PM
Who labels their case "contraband?"

-Gene

That musical group from Iran; I believe their road manager is Oliver North... :D

CABilly
06-13-2011, 12:04 AM
Even more fun?

Carry a pistol case... visible... in your vehicle 24/7.
Carry a couple of shot-up targets, ammo can, NRA sticker, Gasden flag, and other "paraphernalia" that a cop could claim to use for PC.

Empty ammo can, and nothing in the locked pistol case but a couple of dildoes... with the batteries in the case but separate so they are not loaded.

Make video and audio records.

What's in the case?
Personal items.

"I was just on my way home from practicing with some friends for the police academy." :whistling:

(Do not attempt without hefty dental insurance)

Anchors
06-13-2011, 2:32 AM
Even more fun?

Carry a pistol case... visible... in your vehicle 24/7.
Carry a couple of shot-up targets, ammo can, NRA sticker, Gasden flag, and other "paraphernalia" that a cop could claim to use for PC.

Empty ammo can, and nothing in the locked pistol case but a couple of dildoes... with the batteries in the case but separate so they are not loaded.

Make video and audio records.

What's in the case?
Personal items.

I am so glad you are on our team.
Best post in thread.

louderthangod
06-13-2011, 4:39 AM
There's probably a thread about this already and if you could navigate the search feature better than I, then I'd appreciate it but what is the best way to properly transport a handgun and ammunition as if going to the range? All I have is the cheapy cable lock that came with my Glock and a range bag.

On a similar note, is it legal to record the conversation with a cop with your phone even if they ask you not to? Seems like one of those things you should be able to do, they've got cameras in the streets but I've seen them get really upset over it.

Oceanbob
06-13-2011, 5:08 AM
There's probably a thread about this already and if you could navigate the search feature better than I, then I'd appreciate it but what is the best way to properly transport a handgun and ammunition as if going to the range? All I have is the cheapy cable lock that came with my Glock and a range bag.

On a similar note, is it legal to record the conversation with a cop with your phone even if they ask you not to? Seems like one of those things you should be able to do, they've got cameras in the streets but I've seen them get really upset over it.

Well, first off that Cable Lock is for locking up the weapon at home with kids in the house. (that was the intent of the law)...And has NOTHING TO DO WITH TRANSPORTING A WEAPON..so leave it home.

You handgun has to be transported UNLOADED in a locked container. The Trunk of your car is a locked container as long as you can't flip the seat down from inside.

The ammo can be in magazines right next to the handgun. Just not inserted into the weapon. Ignore all other FUD on ammo transportation.

What works is a lockable container (range bag, lockable box, briefcase..etc)
that has a combo or key lock on it.

If you have your weapon Unloaded in a locked briefcase with a magazine full of ammo right next to the weapon you are GOOD TO GO.

In fact, you can have that briefcase on the front seat of your car if you desire. Or in the trunk, whatever you want.

You cannot put your weapon in the GLOVE BOX or CENTER CONSOLE; those locations are specifically spelled out as not acceptable for a locked container.

Copy and paste from the California Highway Patrol:

California law does not recognize concealed weapon permits from other states; therefore, they would not be held valid. If you wish to transport a handgun during your California visit, it should be carried unloaded in a locked container. In the absence of a suitable container, you may secure the unloaded handgun in the locked trunk of a passenger car. Ammunition may be kept in the same container or trunk, but the handgun must remain unloaded with no rounds in the cylinder and no loaded magazines in the magazine well.

Link here:

http://www.chp.ca.gov/html/answers.html

Be well
Bob

Joewy
06-13-2011, 5:34 AM
Don't do this without deep co-ordination. With... different story. Let me noodle on timing and location.


You'd need to make sure that they can't get the bag open without causing real damage to the bag. I was shocked that TSA got into one of my zippered bags without removing the real lock (because there was a handgun in a locked hard case inside) and with no damage to the bag...

-Gene

Hmm.. my bags are usually shredded... The contents broken and a nicely placed note on top thanking me for my cooperation.... :mad:

Wernher von Browning
06-13-2011, 6:22 AM
Hmm.. my bags are usually shredded... The contents broken and a nicely placed note on top thanking me for my cooperation.... :mad:

I've had them open bags because there wasn't enough in them.

Last trip to Europe, I planned on bringing back a down comforter (OK. I admit it. I need comfortin'. So sue me). So I checked an empty suitcase. It was opened twice -- first flight from CA to O'Hare, where I stayed with friends overnight. Then again from O'Hare to Europe.

Coming back, same thing -- O'Hare to California, it had a new down comforter in it but that weighs next to nothing.

I have a whole collection of those sorry notes thanking me for my unwilling cooperation.

Bastards.

BTW I love European customs inspection. I usually get there so early that customs is still in bed. There's a red phone on the wall with a sign saying "If you have anything to declare, use phone to call for customs inspection." Yeah, right. I usually see bleary-eyed customs inspectors dragging in to work as I'm walking to the car rental counter. Also the first joke I ever heard in Germany was told by the first customs inspector I ever saw there.

five.five-six
06-13-2011, 6:30 AM
CGF would really, really love a situation where a Calgunner who was doing nothing wrong required an officer to damage a case to get access. We'll even buy you a new case!

-Gene

no offense Gene, but in such a situation, I would expect the city to pay for the case



wait, now that's punny :rofl2:

five.five-six
06-13-2011, 6:37 AM
Even more fun?

Carry a pistol case... visible... in your vehicle 24/7.
Carry a couple of shot-up targets, ammo can, NRA sticker, Gasden flag, and other "paraphernalia" that a cop could claim to use for PC.

Empty ammo can, and nothing in the locked pistol case but a couple of dildoes... with the batteries in the case but separate so they are not loaded.

Make video and audio records.

What's in the case?
Personal items.

you weren't, by chance, one of the "straight" people with pink pistols at the GLBT pride parade :gene:


:hide:

383green
06-13-2011, 7:24 AM
How about a new version or three of the Calguns gun case tags in the form of serialized tamper-evident seals? Maybe one of the tag styles with a plastic tag and metal ring that looks a bit like a keychain. Or a zip-tie style. Or a tamper-evident sticker that could be applied to a hard case or safe such that it must be broken to open the case. Or all of the above as different options for different types of containers. It could be emblazoned with the "notice to police" text of the Calguns tags. Maybe an enterprising civil rights attorney with a history of creative business cards would like to make his own version and give them away for free?

Such a product could provide physical evidence of forced entry to a container, as well as placing LEOs on notice that the owner of the container does not consent to search while the owner remains silent.

I think that such a product would be so beneficial to our community that I happily release it to the wild, for anybody to implement without compensating me or giving me any credit. Now, if you want me to apply my engineering skills to WAN-connected tamper-resistant recording devices to provide evidence of improper encounters, that'll cost you... ;)

Steve1968LS2
06-13-2011, 7:30 AM
So if you have a locked container and the cop asks "is there a gun in there?" do you have to answer or can you just state "there's nothing illegal in there"???

Just curios as to when you are required to declare a firearm is present.

OleCuss
06-13-2011, 7:35 AM
Hmm. . .

Interesting idea? Maybe do one of the parades with the magazines, empty holster, and a locked Glock case with some toiletries inside? Lots of witnesses, could very well have a lawyerly type or two on hand - and lots of recordings?

Heck, we could have everyone marching with the Pink Pistols equipped in that fashion - and how could the SFPD (for example) possibly resist searching the locked containers?

I think I could thoroughly enjoy walking down the street with a Glock case in one hand and an AR-15 case in the other with firearms manufacturer's labels in place and maybe something that said, "Dangerous, Handle with care".

GrizzlyGuy
06-13-2011, 7:52 AM
If someone really wanted to force this issue, I suggest borrowing or renting a car with plates from any state other than CA or NV, cruising into the ag checkpoint on westbound I-80 up here at Truckee, and refusing to answer the "where are you coming from?" standard question. That should land you in secondary, and if you persist in exercising your rights, they will likely call in CHP (who happen to operate the truck scales 100 yards away, with their base only a few miles further down the freeway).

Bonus points if you buy a bunch of fruit in CA and put it on your passenger seat on top of the also-visible locked gun case. Keep the receipt from your fruit purchase and (ideally) have someone videotape you buying the fruit and putting it in the car.

PCPerks
06-13-2011, 7:54 AM
So if you have your handgun properly locked in a container in your vehicle and the cop does the "Is there anything in the vehicle that I should know about?" routine, then what? I would say no, but he could very easily say that any type of weapon, regardless of if it's unloaded and legal, is something he should know about for "officer safety".

Where does that come in to play or does it?

383green
06-13-2011, 7:58 AM
So if you have a locked container and the cop asks "is there a gun in there?" do you have to answer or can you just state "there's nothing illegal in there"???

Just state "I do not wish to answer any questions."

Wernher von Browning
06-13-2011, 8:07 AM
Hmm. . .

Interesting idea? Maybe do one of the parades with the magazines, empty holster, and a locked Glock case with some toiletries inside?

How about
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YV3P6VvCqck

mdimeo
06-13-2011, 8:33 AM
So, if an officer asks do you have a firearm in your locked case, is it legal to say "NO" ??? Even if it is obviously a weapons style or marked case?

Apparently legal (though not with federal officials), but stupid. If they pick you up for something else, your lie will certainly come up in court.

The right answer is "Sorry, officer. I'm kind of a civil rights activist, and I'm not answering any questions today. I don't authorize any search of myself or my property. Am I free to go?"

Salt with politeness to taste ("I know you're just trying to do your job, but...", for example). The important bits are - no questions, no search, am I free to go.

markm
06-13-2011, 8:33 AM
Just say, I have nothing illegal in the car, and STFU

Hey I open carry,

Short, sweet, and to the point. +1

I might modify your statement a little:

"I have nothing illegal in the car--do you have Reasonable Articulable Suspicion that a crime is afoot? Then STFU.

I was recently pulled over for a traffic infraction. When LEO asked me to confess my crimes against our police state, I responded with questions.


Officer, what devices or techniques did you use to determine that I may have violated the law?
Officer, is that radar device currently certified for use?
Officer, has the radar device been certified for use in a head-on situation?
Officer, please give me your full name, your badge number, and your supervisor's name and phone number?

Officer, is your training current and do you have your certification with you so that I may review it?

Officer, may I please get out of my car and inspect your VIN number and radar certification to make sure that you have written down the serial numbers correctly?


I know that a lawyer may admonish me regarding the use of the above technique; however, I am innocent until LEO and a judge prove me guilty. If LEO wants to cite or arrest me, he must be on the defensive from the moment the detainment starts until I am convicted (IMHO).

markm

mdimeo
06-13-2011, 8:34 AM
So if you have your handgun properly locked in a container in your vehicle and the cop does the "Is there anything in the vehicle that I should know about?" routine, then what? I would say no, but he could very easily say that any type of weapon, regardless of if it's unloaded and legal, is something he should know about for "officer safety".

Same answer I gave above. No questions, no search, am I free to go.

mdimeo
06-13-2011, 8:37 AM
Same answer I gave above. No questions, no search, am I free to go.

I should also add, though, that if a policeman asked me to step out of the car, I'd carefully mention my (legal) pocketknife with my hands at 10&2 on the wheel, and asked him what he wanted me to do with it first.

Uxi
06-13-2011, 9:07 AM
no what I have is more of a luggage tag idea
ok found it
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=430892
I picked it up at the Calguns booth at the Raahauges shooting fair

though I think I may need to pick up one of those magnets for the safe when they get back in stock :)

Those luggage tags are awesome. A sticker would definitely be better than a magnet for the safe, though.

I just realized I never knew the CGF phone number. That should go on the Flowchart, too.

Maestro Pistolero
06-13-2011, 9:16 AM
I have an suv with a few firearm stickers on the rear window. I keep a large pelican case in the back, also covered with stickers, locked, and secured to the floor of my suv.

With dark windows, you can't see the case, but the past 2 times I was pulled over, I rolled down all windows, and the case is suddenly visible to the officers.

Both asked what the case was for, both asked what was inside, and neither got an answer other than "my toys". Both asked me to open the case, and neither got to see the contents.

I'd love to hear a recap of that conversation.

MrClamperSir
06-13-2011, 9:57 AM
I'd love to hear a recap of that conversation.

I don't think that situation is that unusual. It's typical of the few stops I have encountered where I asserted my rights.

dantodd
06-13-2011, 10:20 AM
So if you have your handgun properly locked in a container in your vehicle and the cop does the "Is there anything in the vehicle that I should know about?" routine, then what? I would say no, but he could very easily say that any type of weapon, regardless of if it's unloaded and legal, is something he should know about for "officer safety".

Where does that come in to play or does it?

Well. If he wants to know if there are guns in the car then he can damn well ask. My guns are in no way shape or form a threat to "officer safety."

dantodd
06-13-2011, 10:24 AM
I should also add, though, that if a policeman asked me to step out of the car, I'd carefully mention my (legal) pocketknife with my hands at 10&2 on the wheel, and asked him what he wanted me to do with it first.

Seriously? You would warn the officer that you have a pocket knife? All you are going to do by saying ANYTHING about a potential "threat" to officer safety is make the hair on the back of his neck go up and his hand go to the butt of his pistol. My knife is a tool, one I've carried since grade school, it is no more dangerous to officer safety than a pen or my car keys. So, if you're riding a motorcycle would you warn the officer that your helmet is really hard and fairly heavy before you dismount?

Decoligny
06-13-2011, 10:31 AM
Seriously? You would warn the officer that you have a pocket knife? All you are going to do by saying ANYTHING about a potential "threat" to officer safety is make the hair on the back of his neck go up and his hand go to the butt of his pistol. My knife is a tool, one I've carried since grade school, it is no more dangerous to officer safety than a pen or my car keys. So, if you're riding a motorcycle would you warn the officer that your helmet is really hard and fairly heavy before you dismount?

+1

Officer, I have to inform you that I have teeth in my mouth, how would you like me to proceed?

Officer, I have to inform you that I am wearing steel toed boots, how would you like me to proceed?

Officer, I have to inform you that if I roll my fingers closed they become a fist, how would you like me to proceed?

The best weapon any person has is their brain. Properly used, the brain can turn anything into a weapon.

Officer, I have to inform you that I am in possession of a human brain, how would you like me to proceed. :rolleyes:

G1500
06-13-2011, 10:50 AM
Officer, I have to inform you that I am in possession of a human brain, how would you like me to proceed.

*Draws weapon* "Down on the ground, hands up!

CHS
06-13-2011, 11:01 AM
So, if an officer asks do you have a firearm in your locked case, is it legal to say "NO" ??? Even if it is obviously a weapons style or marked case?

That would be legal.

Be prepared for extra drama should the cop not believe you, open the case, and find guns. It won't be illegal, and you can't really be charged for anything, but it will certainly tick off the cop. Cops don't like that.

bwiese
06-13-2011, 11:09 AM
Do remember there's case law that a gun case itself is not grounds for a serach.

US v. G____ , can't remember the name...

Just because I have a Pelican or Storm case that has an NRA sticker on it doesn't mean it has a gun. It might, for example often contain instrumentation and tools wholly unrelated to firearms matters - certainly in my past history it has.

edlegault
06-13-2011, 11:12 AM
Questions:

In the state of Kalifornia, is it ok (legal) for a state/county/city/local LEO to lie to a citizen in going about their (LEO's) duty. If so, what is the law or court ruling?

Then, is there law or court rulings about a citizen telling a lie to a LEO. (I am excluding making an official statement or charge that is signed or sworn, under penalty, to be true.)

thx.

383green
06-13-2011, 11:21 AM
Thee is no need to lie to a LEO. Just state that you don't wish to answer any questions, and mean it.

Super Spy
06-13-2011, 11:22 AM
That would work just fine or better.

Who labels their case "contraband?"

-Gene

Gene,

That is a great idea! A new line of rifle cases called "Contraband".......perfect for carrying your infidel rifle in.

Kid Stanislaus
06-13-2011, 12:26 PM
Brilliant until someone smashes your car window to steal that juicy target. Wonder if the cop who came to take the police report would be able to keep a straight face as you told him you kept a gun case full of dildos in your car 24/7 ... :D

One presumes people here have enough sense to not leave items visible in a parked car that may be mistaken for a gun case. ;)

CHS
06-13-2011, 1:20 PM
In the state of Kalifornia, is it ok (legal) for a state/county/city/local LEO to lie to a citizen in going about their (LEO's) duty. If so, what is the law or court ruling?


Absolutely. LEO's regularly lie and/or mislead people in order to get information that they might not get if they were being truthful to the person they are talking to.


Then, is there law or court rulings about a citizen telling a lie to a LEO. (I am excluding making an official statement or charge that is signed or sworn, under penalty, to be true.)


It is against federal law to lie to a federal law enforcement officer. But it's not illegal to lie to a regular police officer in California.

mdimeo
06-13-2011, 1:23 PM
Seriously? You would warn the officer that you have a pocket knife?

Yes. Given that I'm already going to be stepping out of the car, I think I'm more likely to get proned out in the dirt with a gun pointed at my head until ten other cops show up as backup if the officer sees an obvious weapon sticking out of my pocket (and it is an obvious weapon, and it does stick out of my pocket) before I tell him about it.

I would prefer to avoid that outcome.

Steve1968LS2
06-13-2011, 1:26 PM
Just state "I do not wish to answer any questions."

I think I like the "I have nothing illegal".. seems less likely to escalate the deal.. make sense?

I need to buy the sticker for my micro-vault.. good idea.

GrizzlyGuy
06-13-2011, 1:39 PM
Do remember there's case law that a gun case itself is not grounds for a serach.

US v. G____ , can't remember the name...

Yup, that's U.S. v. Gust (http://openjurist.org/405/f3d/797/united-states-v-gust), 2005 9th circuit:

...Gust challenges the district court's denials of his suppression motion and his renewed suppression motion, arguing that the district court erred in determining that he had no legitimate expectation of privacy in a locked container that the district court found was readily identifiable as a gun case based on its outward appearance. We have jurisdiction pursuant to 28 U.S.C. 1291. We reverse the district court's denials of Gust's motion to suppress and his renewed motion to suppress and remand for further proceedings consistent with this opinion...

383green
06-13-2011, 1:47 PM
I think I like the "I have nothing illegal".. seems less likely to escalate the deal.. make sense?

if they decide to charge you with something, and they find anything in your control or possession that they choose to claim is illegal, then they can and will present your "I have nothing illegal" statement in court to try to convince the jury that you are dishonest. You are not required to answer their question at all, but the officer will use their training to try to get you talking. Once you are talking, it's hard to shut up, and they are professionals in the field of getting you to say something incriminating, or to slip up and give them permission for a search, or anything else like that. Your best option is just to say nothing other than that you do not wish to answer questions, that you do not consent to unwarranted search, and that you want your lawyer present now. Don't take my word for it, though... This is what the defense lawyers here keep telling us, even though so many people seem to be completely missing the point.

Meplat
06-13-2011, 3:09 PM
That would work just fine or better.

Wokr well for whom, the cop or the case owner?


Who labels their case "contraband?"

-Gene

DUH.......................? Me?

If the case was of high quality, had the letters molded into the plastic and was free.

Or what if it had a registered assault weapon inside? I actually have one that fits that description and has a factory case with a molded in logo.

pointedstick
06-13-2011, 3:25 PM
Mainly I am saying that I don't think it smart to refuse a 12031(e) check while UOCing (holster) without video cameras, a briefcase full of cash carried by an attorney nearby, etc... I don't want physical injury to come to someone.

However, if you've been pulled over and the officer is being a pain and you have a bit of flexibility over the next 24 hours, clearly and plainly deny him access to your locked container. Bonus points if you're recording.

-Gene

Isn't California a two-party consent state? Or is there an exception for recording the fuzz?

Oceanbob
06-13-2011, 3:30 PM
if they decide to charge you with something, and they find anything in your control or possession that they choose to claim is illegal, then they can and will present your "I have nothing illegal" statement in court to try to convince the jury that you are dishonest. You are not required to answer their question at all, but the officer will use their training to try to get you talking. Once you are talking, it's hard to shut up, and they are professionals in the field of getting you to say something incriminating, or to slip up and give them permission for a search, or anything else like that. Your best option is just to say nothing other than that you do not wish to answer questions, that you do not consent to unwarranted search, and that you want your lawyer present now. Don't take my word for it, though... This is what the defense lawyers here keep telling us, even though so many people seem to be completely missing the point.

THIS..^^^^^^^^

Simple...DON'T TALK TO POLICE IF ASKED CERTAIN QUESTIONS. It can only go against you.

6wXkI4t7nuc

383green
06-13-2011, 3:52 PM
THIS..^^^^^^^^

Simple...DON'T TALK TO POLICE IF ASKED CERTAIN QUESTIONS. It can only go against you.

6wXkI4t7nuc

That video is a must-watch. It clears up a lot of misconceptions that us generally law-abiding people have about the legal system that most of us haven't dealt with very much. I also thought that statements like "I have nothing illegal" were the best option before I watched that video, and read many prominent CGF types (especially the lawyers like Jason Davis) repeating the same thing. It was surprising how even innocuous statements like that (even when they are entirely true!) can put a person in a much worse position than if they just shut their trap.

I also know how hard it is to actually follow that advice! Looking back on my most recent police encounter (no crime, no charge; I was just driving a dirty truck in Irvine, is all), I should have handled it differently. We naturally want to talk our way out of things, and LEOs are very skilled at using that to get us to say things that are not in our best interest, just as they must be to do their jobs competently.

hoffmang
06-13-2011, 3:55 PM
Isn't California a two-party consent state? Or is there an exception for recording the fuzz?

Only a two party state where there is an expectation of privacy. On duty uniformed officers don't get that expectation (which is the only reason they can contemplate searching without a warrant.)

-Gene

Tripper
06-13-2011, 4:21 PM
And what about when they tell you to stop recording

hoffmang
06-13-2011, 4:23 PM
And what about when they tell you to stop recording

Ask them why? They can stop a recording if you're arrested. They can't stop a recording if you're not. Either way, you should end up with an audio recording of it that will allow your lawyer to subsequently cause them issues.


-Gene

Meplat
06-13-2011, 4:43 PM
I should also add, though, that if a policeman asked me to step out of the car, I'd carefully mention my (legal) pocketknife with my hands at 10&2 on the wheel, and asked him what he wanted me to do with it first.

Why? If he wants to know let him do a terry search. He will probably ask if you have anything on you that he should know about. Your answer should be "No":43:

Meplat
06-13-2011, 5:03 PM
Wow! Terrorism works!

Yes. Given that I'm already going to be stepping out of the car, I think I'm more likely to get proned out in the dirt with a gun pointed at my head until ten other cops show up as backup if the officer sees an obvious weapon sticking out of my pocket (and it is an obvious weapon, and it does stick out of my pocket) before I tell him about it.

I would prefer to avoid that outcome.

HondaMasterTech
06-13-2011, 5:07 PM
Be polite but know your rights.

Meplat
06-13-2011, 5:08 PM
No expectation of privacy standing alongside a public road.Isn't California a two-party consent state? Or is there an exception for recording the fuzz?

Meplat
06-13-2011, 5:18 PM
I got pulled over for driving a ratty looking Jeep one time. Same outcome. But it took about an hour, the officer just knew I had to be up to no good. Me and the jeep searched inside and out. Glad I had plenty of time at that moment. The cop admonished me to get my jeep painted if I was going to drive around in the nice part of town.:rolleyes:



I also know how hard it is to actually follow that advice! Looking back on my most recent police encounter (no crime, no charge; I was just driving a dirty truck in Irvine, is all), I should have handled it differently.

ubet
06-13-2011, 6:30 PM
While we are on this shut up note, if an officer asks you "do you have any weapons in the vehicle", and you have your ccw on you, whats the best thing to say? Note, my ccw does not require me to tell an officer I am carrying.

OleCuss
06-13-2011, 7:22 PM
While we are on this shut up note, if an officer asks you "do you have any weapons in the vehicle", and you have your ccw on you, whats the best thing to say? Note, my ccw does not require me to tell an officer I am carrying.

Personally, I think I'd simply say that I do not consent to a search and ask if I'm free to go. If he presses the issue I'd say that I wish to dispose of the issue for which I was stopped and then proceed on my way, say that I do not consent to search or questioning, and again ask if I may proceed?

If that is a problem you can ask for their supervisor to join your little gathering.

Cokebottle
06-13-2011, 7:23 PM
I am so glad you are on our team.
Best post in thread.
I think my last name had Kest going for a couple of days when I first logged in.

Not a very common name, but quite infamous in the gun community.

And no, I'm not related as far as I know, though I did have some "hippy" cousins up in the Grass Valley area that my side of the family hasn't maintained contact with.... but unless my dad had another nephew he was ashamed to admit to...

Rossi357
06-13-2011, 7:27 PM
While we are on this shut up note, if an officer asks you "do you have any weapons in the vehicle", and you have your ccw on you, whats the best thing to say? Note, my ccw does not require me to tell an officer I am carrying.

Scroll up and watch that video. Bottom line.....don't say anything.

Cokebottle
06-13-2011, 7:27 PM
you weren't, by chance, one of the "straight" people with pink pistols at the GLBT pride parade :gene:


:hide:
Nahh...

I've been missing out on all of the fun.
Been on call for the last 4 weeks.

FINALLY passed the pager off this morning.
Shooting this weekend!

Anchors
06-13-2011, 7:33 PM
So if you have a locked container and the cop asks "is there a gun in there?" do you have to answer or can you just state "there's nothing illegal in there"???

Just curios as to when you are required to declare a firearm is present.

Say "nope" or invoke the 5th. Your choice.

Just state "I do not wish to answer any questions."

You can also just say, "no". Because that isn't illegal and if you are arrested for something that was legally transported then your lawyer will have fun at trial.
And no, that won't constitute a "consciousness of guilt".

G1500
06-13-2011, 7:34 PM
I think my last name had Kest going for a couple of days when I first logged in.


Why did you have to give your name?

Cokebottle
06-13-2011, 7:35 PM
Isn't California a two-party consent state? Or is there an exception for recording the fuzz?
Only where there is an expectation of privacy, such as a phone call or closed-door meeting.

Anything that happens in a public place is fair game, no expectation of privacy.
They can film you running a red light, and you can film them violating your rights.

Cokebottle
06-13-2011, 7:38 PM
I got pulled over for driving a ratty looking Jeep one time. Same outcome. But it took about an hour, the officer just knew I had to be up to no good. Me and the jeep searched inside and out. Glad I had plenty of time at that moment. The cop admonished me to get my jeep painted if I was going to drive around in the nice part of town.:rolleyes:
Umm... I've been all over Fresno.

WHERE is the "nice" part of town? :D

Cokebottle
06-13-2011, 7:42 PM
Why did you have to give your name?
It's part of my email address.

I've had the same email address since 1993.... technically before that but it was a Fidonet address.

z-bob
06-13-2011, 7:43 PM
OK, I've only read page one, but why is everybody saying "lie to the officer" or "don't lie to the officer". If he asks you what's in the case, say "See that lock? It means none of your damn business." That'll piss him off enough to cuff you and illegally break into your padlocked "Glock" lunchbox full of dildoes with Gene's business card tucked inside with "Gotcha" written on it.

If he asks you specifically if you have any guns, say "Does it *look* like I have any guns?"

There's no reason to give him a straight answer to anything except, "License, registration, and proof of insurance please?" (Don't they teach how to deflect questions and give evasive nonanswers in school anymore? Kids these days...) Anything you say can be used against you. Nothing you say is even admissible in court to be used to help you. So shut up! You can do so respectfully or be an asshat about it, depending on whether you want to make a federal case of it or not. ;)

G1500
06-13-2011, 7:45 PM
It's part of my email address.

I've had the same email address since 1993.... technically before that but it was a Fidonet address.

Ah, Yes. I just got an email from Yahoo (which I don't use anymore) thanking me for my my 13 years with them.

I think my first email was @prodigy email. lol

bussda
06-13-2011, 8:04 PM
CGF would really, really love a situation where a Calgunner who was doing nothing wrong required an officer to damage a case to get access. We'll even buy you a new case!

-Gene

How about a cut lock? See http://calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=432990&highlight=cutters

Markus
06-13-2011, 8:26 PM
They said they had guns hence they had pc....

rabagley
06-13-2011, 8:32 PM
Even more fun?

Carry a pistol case... visible... in your vehicle 24/7.
Carry a couple of shot-up targets, ammo can, NRA sticker, Gasden flag, and other "paraphernalia" that a cop could claim to use for PC.

Empty ammo can, and nothing in the locked pistol case but a couple of dildoes... with the batteries in the case but separate so they are not loaded.

Make video and audio records.

What's in the case?
Personal items.

I don't own any... dildoes... I feel a little dirty even figuring out where to buy such implements for this test case...

383green
06-13-2011, 8:35 PM
Well, for folks who would rather not carry around, um, "power tools", how about a production run of troll dolls with CGF or CGN logos imprinted on their little bellies? Save a green-haired one for me, please!

:troll:

Meplat
06-13-2011, 8:36 PM
Umm... I've been all over Fresno.

WHERE is the "nice" part of town? :D

In Clovis of course!:p

And this from a guy that lives in CHINO?:eek:

Meplat
06-13-2011, 8:47 PM
I don't own any... dildoes... I feel a little dirty even figuring out where to buy such implements for this test case...

Good! If you can't figure out where to put the batteries you can't get in trouble by having them loaded

Cokebottle
06-13-2011, 9:08 PM
I don't own any... dildoes... I feel a little dirty even figuring out where to buy such implements for this test case...
I've got some extras that.... err... I mean there's a place over off of Foothill... err... I heard that Oaklander was arranging a group buy :D

Cokebottle
06-13-2011, 9:10 PM
In Clovis of course!:p

And this from a guy that lives in CHINO?:eek:
Yup.

The bad guys are behind a fence and they do a good job of keeping them there.

Seriously... been here for 20 years. Had wife's car window broken and her cell phone stolen in '95. That's it. No other problems.

G1500
06-13-2011, 9:17 PM
I've got some extras that.... err... I mean there's a place over off of Foothill... err... I heard that Oaklander was arranging a group buy :D

Does it start with 'toy' and end with 'box'?

:rofl2:

dantodd
06-13-2011, 10:06 PM
I don't own any... dildoes... I feel a little dirty even figuring out where to buy such implements for this test case...

I find it hard to believe that anyone with Internet access can't find out in 2.5 second how to buy any kind of sex toy they may want.

Try adamandeve.com use the coupon code BNARMY and get 50% off any one item, plus free shipping and freebies....

westsideslim
06-13-2011, 10:29 PM
Well, I'm a noob and kinda naive so how about this scenario. I'm coming home from the range with my Ruger logo bag on the passenger seat. It's locked, the gun is unloaded. I get pulled over for a defective brake light. The officer sees the bag and asks if there is a gun in the bag. I say yes sir it's locked up and unloaded as it should be. What should I expect to happen next?

MrClamperSir
06-13-2011, 10:35 PM
^^^^
Probably a request followed by an order to open the bag.

OTOH you may just get a have a nice night and get that light fixed.

dantodd
06-13-2011, 10:38 PM
Well, I'm a noob and kinda naive so how about this scenario. I'm coming home from the range with my Ruger logo bag on the passenger seat. It's locked, the gun is unloaded. I get pulled over for a defective brake light. The officer sees the bag and asks if there is a gun in the bag. I say yes sir it's locked up and unloaded as it should be. What should I expect to happen next?

You will almost certainly be asked to step outside of the car. If it is daylight and you are a middle class, middle aged, and preferably white dude then you may not get cuffed. If you look scruffy, are young, a minority, or otherwise out of place in the neighborhood expect to be sitting on the curb in cuffs for officer safety.

Then they'll ask again about additional guns. then they'll retrieve the gun case and ask you for the key. Then they'll inspect the gun for unloaded status. Finally, they may or may not decide to continue the search to other areas of the car that "might" contain a gun.

G1500
06-13-2011, 10:38 PM
I find it hard to believe that anyone with Internet access can't find out in 2.5 second how to buy any kind of sex toy they may want.

Try adamandeve.com use the coupon code BNARMY and get 50% off any one item, plus free shipping and freebies....

My GF does parties for her friends and friends of friends, she has a whole suitcase full of the stuff.

Her "Kit" has a huge cache of...um...yea, would be interesting to get pulled over and have an officer search the case.

:rofl2:

funnyman3000
06-14-2011, 1:49 AM
about the refusing to open a locked gun case. If you have a handgun you legally own, are coming back from or heading to the range, and didn't do anything wrong, why not just comply? Yes officer I have a handgun in a locked case in the trunk, here is the paperwork for it and the key to unlock it and you can verify it is unloaded if you'd like. Take him 15-20 minutes to run your paperwork and off you go. (never gotten pulled over with guns in the trunk so not speaking from experience)

locosway
06-14-2011, 1:57 AM
Even more fun?

Carry a pistol case... visible... in your vehicle 24/7.
Carry a couple of shot-up targets, ammo can, NRA sticker, Gasden flag, and other "paraphernalia" that a cop could claim to use for PC.

Empty ammo can, and nothing in the locked pistol case but a couple of dildoes... with the batteries in the case but separate so they are not loaded.

Make video and audio records.

What's in the case?
Personal items.

OMG, I soooo want to do that... Now I have to get permission from my wife to borrow her things...

chiselchst
06-14-2011, 2:08 AM
I'm totally lovin' this thread...

I get 7-days off every month, HHhmmm....

It would be ideal if this hypo situation was VERY well documented - video and audio. I'd love to see the resulting *legal situation*...

My gun cases are all new, and I don't need "new ones" at this time. But...

I do have CG on my speed dial, however... :43:

This situation sounds as if it will come to fuition soon, I look forward to it...

wildhawker
06-14-2011, 2:08 AM
OMG, I soooo want to do that... Now I have to get permission from my wife to borrow her things...

We now know why you always have a sunny disposition. :D

z-bob
06-14-2011, 4:26 AM
about the refusing to open a locked gun case. If you have a handgun you legally own, are coming back from or heading to the range, and didn't do anything wrong, why not just comply? Yes officer I have a handgun in a locked case in the trunk, here is the paperwork for it and the key to unlock it and you can verify it is unloaded if you'd like. Take him 15-20 minutes to run your paperwork and off you go. (never gotten pulled over with guns in the trunk so not speaking from experience)

1) if he really wants to know what's in a locked case, he needs to be talking to a judge, not you.

2) once you answer that you have a gun, doesn't matter how legal it is, you have no idea if it's going to take 15 minutes or 3 hours with him tearing everything out of your car and pulling the door panels off and cutting the seat cushions.

CHS
06-14-2011, 7:39 AM
about the refusing to open a locked gun case. If you have a handgun you legally own, are coming back from or heading to the range, and didn't do anything wrong, why not just comply? Yes officer I have a handgun in a locked case in the trunk, here is the paperwork for it and the key to unlock it and you can verify it is unloaded if you'd like. Take him 15-20 minutes to run your paperwork and off you go. (never gotten pulled over with guns in the trunk so not speaking from experience)

And since you're innocent and you didn't rape anyone that afternoon, why not just let him swab your testicles too? You know, JUST to make SURE you didn't rape anyone that afternoon. You're innocent after all. What's the big deal?

Overbear
06-14-2011, 8:27 AM
So we agree the answer to "Do you have any guns in the car" is...

"I have nothing illegal in my car officer"

Maestro Pistolero
06-14-2011, 8:36 AM
Once you SAY you have a gun, they have a right to inspect it, yes?

5thgen4runner
06-14-2011, 8:41 AM
And since you're innocent and you didn't rape anyone that afternoon, why not just let him swab your testicles too? You know, JUST to make SURE you didn't rape anyone that afternoon. You're innocent after all. What's the big deal?

Well said sir

Peaceful John
06-14-2011, 8:59 AM
I find it hard to believe that anyone with Internet access can't find out in 2.5 second how to buy any kind of sex toy they may want.

Try adamandeve.com use the coupon code BNARMY and get 50% off any one item, plus free shipping and freebies....

Oh, Dan, that's great! LMAO!

G1500
06-14-2011, 9:18 AM
about the refusing to open a locked gun case. If you have a handgun you legally own, are coming back from or heading to the range, and didn't do anything wrong, why not just comply? Yes officer I have a handgun in a locked case in the trunk, here is the paperwork for it and the key to unlock it and you can verify it is unloaded if you'd like. Take him 15-20 minutes to run your paperwork and off you go. (never gotten pulled over with guns in the trunk so not speaking from experience)

Why not let him follow you home, have a look-see around your house just to make sure nothing is stolen and nothing is illegal.


And since you're innocent and you didn't rape anyone that afternoon, why not just let him swab your testicles too? You know, JUST to make SURE you didn't rape anyone that afternoon. You're innocent after all. What's the big deal?

Don't forget the anal cavity search, just to make sure you aren't hiding anything in there, you know...just in case.

383green
06-14-2011, 9:27 AM
So we agree the answer to "Do you have any guns in the car" is...

"I have nothing illegal in my car officer"

No, we do not agree on that. In particular, defense attorneys who post here recommend against that. See the video linked previously in this thread for an explanation of why a statement like that one can work against you in court, even if it is true.

guns4life
06-14-2011, 9:31 AM
My GF does parties for her friends and friends of friends, she has a whole suitcase full of the stuff.




So many responses, so little time...how about :useless:

eaglemike
06-14-2011, 9:36 AM
about the refusing to open a locked gun case. If you have a handgun you legally own, are coming back from or heading to the range, and didn't do anything wrong, why not just comply? Yes officer I have a handgun in a locked case in the trunk, here is the paperwork for it and the key to unlock it and you can verify it is unloaded if you'd like. Take him 15-20 minutes to run your paperwork and off you go. (never gotten pulled over with guns in the trunk so not speaking from experience)
Zero reason to have paperwork with you for a firearm you own under these circumstances. In some cases it's handy for a registered AW. I have no idea where the receipts are for firearms I've owned for over 20 years, some 30. Some/many will not be in the DOJ database. We also have expert testimony that the database is flawed. Some LEO still believe that all firearms MUST be registered. No so..... Just like a non-firearm person thinks 1K rounds and 5 firearms is an arsenal.

dantodd
06-14-2011, 9:36 AM
Oh, Dan, that's great! LMAO!

I love the Brewing Network podcasts, I have to pimp a little for them now and then. Well, maybe in this case pimp is not the right word...

dantodd
06-14-2011, 9:45 AM
On a more serious note...

What if you don't "Refus[e] to allow a peace officer to inspect a firearm" but you don't assist in that inspection?
Might be a lot more fun if you don't even have a key to open the lock on you...

Officer: Do you have any weapons in the car?
Me: Yes sir, a Beretta 92 in the back.
Officer: Please step out of the vehicle.
Me: [comply]
Officer: [Opens trunk] Is your pistol in this bag?
Me: Yes sir.
Officer: Please give me the key for the bag.
Me: I wish to exercise my 5th amendment right against self-incrimination. If you want to ask anything else of me please do so through my attorney, Don Kilmer.

Now what?

z-bob
06-14-2011, 9:49 AM
On a more serious note...

What if you don't "Refus[e] to allow a peace officer to inspect a firearm" but you don't assist in that inspection?
Might be a lot more fun if you don't even have a key to open the lock on you...

Officer: Do you have any weapons in the car?
Me: Yes sir, a Beretta 92 in the back.
Officer: Please step out of the vehicle.
Me: [comply]
Officer: [Opens trunk] Is your pistol in this bag?
Me: Yes sir.
Officer: Please give me the key for the bag.
Me: I wish to exercise my 5th amendment right against self-incrimination. If you want to ask anything else of me please do so through my attorney, Don Kilmer.

Now what?
You've already said way too much.

ETA: At step one, you should have said something closer to "If you want to ask me questions you will need to speak with my lawyer. If you'd like to see my drivers license and registration, I'll get them for you"

dantodd
06-14-2011, 10:00 AM
You've already said way too much.

ETA: At step one, you should have said something closer to "If you want to ask me questions you will need to speak with my lawyer. If you'd like to see my drivers license and registration, I'll get them for you"


Apparently you missed the point of my post.

Go back and read post #4 (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=6579573&postcount=4) in the thread.

z-bob
06-14-2011, 10:03 AM
I do that a lot sometimes.

dantodd
06-14-2011, 10:03 AM
I do that a lot sometimes.

NP without a direct call back to a post way back in the thread it's a fairly easy mistake.

z-bob
06-14-2011, 10:45 AM
I remembered post #4, I just thought we were trying to catch an officer destroying a gun case with no probable cause to think there's a gun inside to be inspected.

6172crew
06-14-2011, 10:50 AM
And since you're innocent and you didn't rape anyone that afternoon, why not just let him swab your testicles too? You know, JUST to make SURE you didn't rape anyone that afternoon. You're innocent after all. What's the big deal?
lulz:chris:

kemasa
06-14-2011, 11:12 AM
What about asking the Officer to see his/her fishing license in response to any questions about what is in the vehicle? :-)

Sub95
06-14-2011, 11:31 AM
I carry a handgun in a Locked steel holstered container, magazines are in hand reach but not visible. sometimes the container is under my right knee on the floor board and somtimes its behind my seat just depends on where I am at.

So if i get rolled up and cop wants to pry open the container i will give you a call.

z-bob
06-14-2011, 11:51 AM
The question is, does Gene want you to tell the cop "I have a gun but I refuse to open the case", or say nothing with a locked case in plain sight? I can see different legal advantages (and risks) either way, but IANAL.

17+1
06-14-2011, 12:12 PM
And since you're innocent and you didn't rape anyone that afternoon, why not just let him swab your testicles too? You know, JUST to make SURE you didn't rape anyone that afternoon. You're innocent after all. What's the big deal?

Some people don't get it.

Sub95
06-14-2011, 12:23 PM
I wont be telling a cop anything..

As i dont have to reply to his fishing questions.

MudCamper
06-14-2011, 12:43 PM
And since you're innocent and you didn't rape anyone that afternoon, why not just let him swab your testicles too? You know, JUST to make SURE you didn't rape anyone that afternoon. You're innocent after all. What's the big deal?

Great analogy! And a potential classic quote!

Sniper3142
06-14-2011, 1:00 PM
On a more serious note...

What if you don't "Refus[e] to allow a peace officer to inspect a firearm" but you don't assist in that inspection?
Might be a lot more fun if you don't even have a key to open the lock on you...

Officer: Do you have any weapons in the car?
Me: Yes sir, a Beretta 92 in the back.
Officer: Please step out of the vehicle.
Me: [comply]
Officer: [Opens trunk] Is your pistol in this bag?
Me: Yes sir.
Officer: Please give me the key for the bag.
Me: I wish to exercise my 5th amendment right against self-incrimination. If you want to ask anything else of me please do so through my attorney, Don Kilmer.

Now what?

I believe that once you admit there is a firearm present, the LEO has the right to inspect it (regardless of whether you want them to or not) to ensure it is being properly transported.

Overbear
06-14-2011, 1:02 PM
No, we do not agree on that. In particular, defense attorneys who post here recommend against that. See the video linked previously in this thread for an explanation of why a statement like that one can work against you in court, even if it is true.

So then...


Officer: Do you have any weapons in the car
Me: Here is my lisence and registration, proof of insurance.

? Just avoid the question? what if he asks again? tell him to go pound sand?

Sub95
06-14-2011, 1:51 PM
""Here is my licenese and registration, proof of insurance""

Yep, you dont have to reply to them at all no matter what he tells you. as anything you say will be used against you or twisted around.

just make sure you dont have drugs in the car, as some cops might think by you not talking to them you are hiding something and will get a K-9 out there. if they want you out of the car roll windows up and lock keys in the car. ( just dont forget the cell phone in the car LOL )

Maestro Pistolero
06-14-2011, 2:03 PM
? Just avoid the question? what if he asks again? tell him to go pound sand?The biggest challenge in refusing a search may be to do so without being jerky about it.

LE: "May I see your license, registration, and proof of insurance please?

You: hand him your lic/reg/ins

LE: "Do you have any weapons or drugs in the car"

You: "There's nothing illegal in this car, officer."

LE: "That's not what I ask you."

You: Silence

LE: "Sir I ask you a question, What's in the box?"

You: "Yes, sir, and respectfully, you have my answer."

LE: "Step out of the car please"

You: "Yes, sir" (you step out of the car, with your keys, and lock it, putting the keys in your pocket.)

LE: "I'm going to ask you again, are there any weapons in the car"

You: "Sir with all due respect, why, again did you pull me over?"

LE: "You know why I pulled you over/I ask you a question/ why aren't you answering my questions?/ What are you hiding?", etc, etc

You: "Again, with respect, I've got somewhere I need to be, could we please just deal with the reason that you stopped me?"

LE: "If you have nothing to hide, why won't you answer my questions?"

You: "Because they are unrelated to the purpose of this stop"

LE: "I'll decide what's related or not"

You: Silence

LE: "I am going to need to search your vehicle/that box for weapons, just to keep everyone safe here."

You: "I do not consent to any searches."

LE: "Fine. Have you got all day? If we find anything in this vehicle, it isn't going to go well for you. If you cooperate, I'll give you a break and you can be on your way. If you don't, it's going to get very unpleasant. Now, why don't you open the car so I can have a quick look, and then you can be on your way"

You: "Sir, I would like to suggest one last time that we just deal with the reason you pulled me over, because if you actually think you have RAS (reasonable articulable suspicion), or PC (probable cause) to search this vehicle, then I'm am going to insist on speaking to your supervisor right away. And until he or she arrives, I will have nothing more to say to you. It's your call, sir"

Then shut up, and watch the the situation change in front of your eyes.

You WILL get the ticket with this approach, guaranteed. You won't get any breaks. But, any search conducted in a scenario like this, absent any other RAS or PC is illegal and the officer is well aware of that.

dantodd
06-14-2011, 2:13 PM
I believe that once you admit there is a firearm present, the LEO has the right to inspect it (regardless of whether you want them to or not) to ensure it is being properly transported.

Statutorily yes, constitutionally no. I thought the idea was to get standing in a case that can't "go away." Merely being (e) checked will probably not hold right now because you haven't suffered an "injury" and probably can't get standing. If you obey the statute and the officer damages your property you now have an injury that you can use to get standing to effectively challenge 12031(e)

383green
06-14-2011, 2:15 PM
So then...


Officer: Do you have any weapons in the car
Me: Here is my lisence and registration, proof of insurance.

? Just avoid the question? what if he asks again? tell him to go pound sand?

The point is to exercise your right to remain silent, because anything that you say can be used against you in court, and cannot be used in your defense. Literally telling him to pound sand would be unnecessary and counterproductive. Your answer to the question should be a statement that you do not wish to answer any questions. If he persists, you might demand to have your lawyer present during questioning. If he asks for permission to search, or if you mind if he searches, say that you do not consent to unwarranted search. Say it just that way, every time, because he might ask repeatedly and switch up between "may I" and "do you mind if" in order to create ambiguity between your yes and no answers. Remember, he is professionally trained to get people to incriminate themselves, and once he gets you into a conversation he already has the upper hand.

Rossi357
06-14-2011, 2:32 PM
The biggest challenge in refusing a search may be to do so without being jerky about it.

LE: "May I see your license, registration, and proof of insurance please?

You: hand him your lic/reg/ins

LE: "Do you have any weapons or drugs in the car"

You: "There's nothing illegal in this car, officer."

LE: "That's not what I ask you."

You: Silence

LE: "Sir I ask you a question, What's in the box?"

You: "Yes, sir, and respectfully, you have my answer."

LE: "Step out of the car please"

You: "Yes, sir" (you step out of the car, with your keys, and lock it, putting the keys in your pocket.)

LE: "I'm going to ask you again, are there any weapons in the car"

You: "Sir with all due respect, why, again did you pull me over?"

LE: "You know why I pulled you over/I ask you a question/ why aren't you answering my questions?/ What are you hiding?", etc, etc

You: "Again, with respect, I've got somewhere I need to be, could we please just deal with the reason that you stopped me?"

LE: "If you have nothing to hide, why won't you answer my questions?"

You: "Because they are unrelated to the purpose of this stop"

LE: "I'll decide what's related or not"

You: Silence

LE: "I am going to need to search your vehicle/that box for weapons, just to keep everyone safe here."

You: "I do not consent to any searches."

LE: "Fine. Have you got all day? If we find anything in this vehicle, it isn't going to go well for you. If you cooperate, I'll give you a break and you can be on your way. If you don't, it's going to get very unpleasant. Now, why don't you open the car so I can have a quick look, and then you can be on your way"

You: "Sir, I would like to suggest one last time that we just deal with the reason you pulled me over, because if you actually think you have RAS (reasonable articulable suspicion), or PC (probable cause) to search this vehicle, then I'm am going to insist on speaking to your supervisor right away. And until he or she arrives, I will have nothing more to say to you. It's your call, sir"

Then shut up, and watch the the situation change in front of your eyes.

You WILL get the ticket with this approach, guaranteed. You won't get any breaks. But, any search conducted in a scenario like this, absent any other RAS or PC is illegal and the officer is well aware of that.

Everything in Green is ok, except when the officer starts fishing, decline to answer any questions without legal advice.
Then STFU!

Kid Stanislaus
06-14-2011, 3:29 PM
Great analogy! And a potential classic quote!

STICKY?!!:D

mdimeo
06-14-2011, 3:58 PM
So we agree the answer to "Do you have any guns in the car" is...

"I have nothing illegal in my car officer"

No! It can't help you, may hurt you, may not be true before the search, and may be false before the search but true after the search.

"I will not answer any questions. I do consent to any searches. Am I free to go?"

-m@

CHS
06-14-2011, 4:57 PM
Great analogy! And a potential classic quote!

Sadly, it's not my original analogy. However, it's still applicable.

I *HATE* the absolute BS response and excuse of "Oh well I'm innocent, so what's the big deal?". The big deal is that that's just NOT how free societies work.

OleCuss
06-14-2011, 5:08 PM
No! It can't help you, may hurt you, may not be true before the search, and may be false before the search but true after the search.

"I will not answer any questions. I do not consent to any searches. Am I free to go?"

-m@

Just needed a slight correction.

BodyPiercingByColt
06-14-2011, 5:18 PM
What if I had my lockbox, with "contraband" emblazoned on it, and the police DID stop me, search me, break into it, and the overzealous officer decided to go ahead haul me in for whatever reason (he didn't like me and decided to go with the excuse of "tying up police resources")?
Then, whilst in court with CGF, trying to clear my good name and standing in the community, some half-assed media-type finds our little discussion here outlining a "plan" to stir the pot and manages to affect populace perceptions against us because of it (not that I think that they don't lay out plans of their own, already)?

curtisfong
06-14-2011, 5:20 PM
[if you] didn't do anything wrong, why not just comply?

As others have said, this position is offensive, IMO.

Excelsior
06-14-2011, 5:28 PM
This is an interesting situation. First I am surprised that people put themselves in the situation of even having the question asked. Keep those gun and ammo cases in the trunk or under cover for goodness sakes. I made the mistake once of having my trunk full of legal, unloaded guns. Unfortunately my wallet was also in the trunk when I got pulled over for a traffic matter so I am guilty too. If I made that mistake today, I would just say I forgot my license -- they have all the information at their fingertips anyway.

With the guns in the trunk or under cover why else would a LEO ask? S&W and Ruger stickers on the back window or bumper? That's the worst kind of foolishness. I've heard the excuse "the LEO saw me leave the range." While that raises certain doubts in my mind -- such as why were you pulled over to begin with -- leaving the range lawfully is not probable cause, I suppose it could possibly happen but highly doubtful.

IF it actually happened to me (and I seriously doubt it would), I would be very careful. I would really wonder about why I was being pulled over before I was asked about any guns.

I wouldn't do the name/rank/serial number shtick though. My time is worth me to me than having to unzip/unlock a few cases...

bigcalidave
06-14-2011, 5:39 PM
What if I had my lockbox, with "contraband" emblazoned on it, and the police DID stop me, search me, break into it, and the overzealous officer decided to go ahead haul me in for whatever reason (he didn't like me and decided to go with the excuse of "tying up police resources")?
Then, whilst in court with CGF, trying to clear my good name and standing in the community, some half-assed media-type finds our little discussion here outlining a "plan" to stir the pot and manages to affect populace perceptions against us because of it (not that I think that they don't lay out plans of their own, already)?

False arrest is false arrest. You didn't MAKE the police arrest you, you just exercised your right to remain silent and happened to have planned that method ahead of time. Who cares about the media efforts to change public perception. It happens every time you see a tv show where a gun is involved and someone says "ZOMG you have a gun? Whats wrong with you?"

Excelsior
06-14-2011, 5:41 PM
about the refusing to open a locked gun case. If you have a handgun you legally own, are coming back from or heading to the range, and didn't do anything wrong, why not just comply? Yes officer I have a handgun in a locked case in the trunk, here is the paperwork for it and the key to unlock it and you can verify it is unloaded if you'd like. Take him 15-20 minutes to run your paperwork and off you go. (never gotten pulled over with guns in the trunk so not speaking from experience)

I would preface that by saying that I would NEVER (again) have ANY guns or shooting gear in view of the LEO. NOT EVER. So that puts that scenario to rest.

When I did foul-up and have to access my trunk to get my wallet I just told both LEOs (CHP officers) that I have two zipped rifles cases containing one firearm each and a range bag containing ammo and 3 handguns in their own zipped bags and that my wallet was in a side pocket of the range bag.

I popped the truck from my car, got out and sat on the hood of their cruiser right behind my car. They asked permission to open the trunk fully and then again to dig for the wallet. They closed the trunk and one LEO "ran me" while the other interviewed me (I was still sitting on the hood of their car.)

The first one came back I explained what the guns were and he took as very quick look inside each zippered case with my permission and sent me on my way. It wasn't the greatest experience in the world but they were nice enough and I suspect they liked the fact that I did not act like a jerk. I had the feeling the wanted to get back on patrol.

STILL, I should have had my wallet in the car with me AND IF I still screwed-up and had it in the the trunk, I should have said I forgot it...

Excelsior
06-14-2011, 5:49 PM
After reading some of these postings I cannot help but think that some people want to augment personal shortcomings (no pun) by acting in ways that are simply laughable. They WANT the confrontation. NOT to deny the LEOs information, NOT to stand up for their rights but because they WANT the confrontation and the emotions, recognition and stories that go along with it. Yuck...

ubet
06-14-2011, 6:52 PM
After reading some of these postings I cannot help but think that some people want to augment personal shortcomings (no pun) by acting in ways that are simply laughable. They WANT the confrontation. NOT to deny the LEOs information, NOT to stand up for their rights but because they WANT the confrontation and the emotions, recognition and stories that go along with it. Yuck...

Personally for me, I want to see them respect OUR civil rights again. I dont agree with the patriot act, I dont agree with the view so many leos have when it comes to guns, and I sure as hell dont agree with this "police state" mentality that they have. If something like this can knock them down a few pegs, then by all means, I would love for someone to take this to court.

z-bob
06-14-2011, 7:10 PM
The biggest challenge in refusing a search may be to do so without being jerky about it.
Where is the obligation to not be a jerk? Remember who initiated the contact.

(BTW, do cops routinely ask about guns, drugs, etc? I don't think I've ever been asked, not that I get stopped very often. OTOH, I'm white, middle-aged, and have a crew-cut, so that may play into it)

dantodd
06-14-2011, 7:27 PM
My time is worth more to me than having to unzip/unlock a few cases... the bill of rights.

FYP

dantodd
06-14-2011, 7:29 PM
I cannot help but think that some people want to augment personal shortcomings (no pun) by acting in ways that are simply laughable.

Do you feel the same about police officers who go on fishing expeditions for something completely unrelated to the traffic stop? Or is that just okey dokey?

Excelsior
06-14-2011, 7:32 PM
Personally for me, I want to see them respect OUR civil rights again. I dont agree with the patriot act, I dont agree with the view so many leos have when it comes to guns, and I sure as hell dont agree with this "police state" mentality that they have. If something like this can knock them down a few pegs, then by all means, I would love for someone to take this to court.

Actually I need to append my last posting to "I cannot help but think that some people want to augment personal shortcomings (no pun) by acting in ways that are simply laughable. They WANT the confrontation. NOT to deny the LEOs information, NOT to stand up for their rights but because they WANT the confrontation and the emotions, recognition and stories that go along with it at least while chatting about everything in theory behind their comfy computer screens. Yuck...

I think this discussion is largely about getting twisted up in knots and thumping one's chest about a situation that is largely non-existent if people use their brains by:

Stowing their legal gear in a legal manner.

Making sure NO shooting gear, t-shirts, decals, etc. are in plain sight of the LEO.

Comporting themselves in a professional manner and not in a confrontational one.

Excelsior
06-14-2011, 7:36 PM
Do you feel the same about police officers who go on fishing expeditions for something completely unrelated to the traffic stop? Or is that just okey dokey?

That's the very point really. I think these "fishing expeditions" are largely the fantasy of people who crave to at least talk about such confrontations. Yes, I am sure they have happened but I suspect they are exceedingly rare. I think they can be made largely non existent for an individual if they take into consideration the points that I just mentioned.

When they do happen in that rare occasion I think the great majority go well -- so long as no one has anything to hide.

Excelsior
06-14-2011, 7:38 PM
Where is the obligation to not be a jerk? Remember who initiated the contact.

(BTW, do cops routinely ask about guns, drugs, etc? I don't think I've ever been asked, not that I get stopped very often. OTOH, I'm white, middle-aged, and have a crew-cut, so that may play into it)
That should come very early on in your formative years from your parents.

dantodd
06-14-2011, 7:43 PM
That's the very point really. I think these "fishing expeditions" are largely the fantasy of people who crave to at least talk about such confrontations. Yes, I am sure they have happened but I suspect they are exceedingly rare. I think they can be made largely non existent for an individual if they take into consideration the points that I just mentioned.

When they do happen in that rare occasion I think the great majority go well -- so long as no one has anything to hide.

So you have no problem with them on those rare occasions? That's fine. I, and many people here, do have a problem with having our privacy invaded inappropriately. I certainly don't disagree that there are more than enough "keyboard commandos" on CalGuns but standing up for one's right isn't about trying to "augment personal shortcomings" but perhaps rolling over to civil rights violations rather than standing up for oneself is verifying one's obvious "personal shortcomings."

To be more blunt, if you don't have the balls to stick up for your Civil Rights what will you stand up for? More Caramel in your Starbucks Machiato?

Excelsior
06-14-2011, 7:44 PM
Where is the obligation to not be a jerk? Remember who initiated the contact.

(BTW, do cops routinely ask about guns, drugs, etc? I don't think I've ever been asked, not that I get stopped very often. OTOH, I'm white, middle-aged, and have a crew-cut, so that may play into it)

That's interesting. I don't think a LEO has ever given me a break based on the level of melanin in my derma, my age or my chosen hairstyle.

I've been given more than one break over the years because I wasn't all revved-up for a confrontation when we first made contact, because I treated the LEO like a human and because I was able to answer their questions in a clear, concise and polite manner.

hoffmang
06-14-2011, 7:53 PM
Yes, I am sure they have happened but I suspect they are exceedingly rare. I think they can be made largely non existent for an individual if they take into consideration the points that I just mentioned.

Sadly they are fare rarer than you think. Add in that most street cops are not well trained on CA's byzantine firearms laws and I can tell you that we see a lot of folks arrested for things that aren't even crimes.

Switching gears. As to the case facts CGF might like, I don't think we'd want you to have admitted to having guns in the case in question.

As to some life advice. When cops are asking you questions you'd prefer not to answer be exceedingly polite and just say "I realize you're just doing your job officer, but I'm not really interested in answering more of your questions" or "no thanks!"

-Gene

Excelsior
06-14-2011, 7:55 PM
So you have no problem with them on those rare occasions? That's fine. I, and many people here, do have a problem with having our privacy invaded inappropriately. I certainly don't disagree that there are more than enough "keyboard commandos" on CalGuns but standing up for one's right isn't about trying to "augment personal shortcomings" but perhaps rolling over to civil rights violations rather than standing up for oneself is verifying one's obvious "personal shortcomings."

Please, don't ever try to speak for me. I think the scenarios that some people salivate about again and again on these forums are ultra-rare (to the point of being nearly non-existent) and should be noted as such with all the background information. But they're not.

The stories I read here are of guys all twisted in knots and pumped-up just begging for a fight as soon as they see a flashing light -- at least in theory as we both noted. I think when we read about situations that did actually go bad, they did so largely because of the actions of the person being pulled over and not by the LEOs.

To be more blunt, if you don't have the balls to stick up for your Civil Rights what will you stand up for? More Caramel in your Starbucks Machiato? I have enough on the ball and some personal qualities (thanks largely to God, my parents and mentors) that would never allow me to step in some of the stuff so profusely spread by the aforementioned.
FYP

dantodd
06-14-2011, 8:04 PM
Please, don't ever try to speak for me. I think the scenarios that some people salivate about again and again on these forums are ultra-rare (to the point of being nearly non-existent) and should be noted as such with all the background information. But they're not.

The stories I read here are of guys all twisted in knots and pumped-up just begging for a fight as soon as they see a flashing light -- at least in theory as we both noted. I think when we read about situations that did actually go bad, they did so largely because of the actions of the person being pulled over and not by the LEOs.


As Gene pointed out I think that you grossly underestimate the number of inappropriate arrests and general annoyance that often comes with firearms ownership in CA. Certainly that comes from disparate background and personal experiences. I'm sure that Gene doesn't have to help out all the people who have simply roll over and give up their 4th amendment rights so that 12031(e) doesn't have to be invoked. And I'm sure you don't hang out with people who make it a point to stand up for all their rights to the point of getting confrontational about it. Personally, I have been pulled over a few times, once every 3 or 4 years and I've been asked about weapons before (yes, in my minivan with the kids in it.) How one chooses to handle that is their own business as long as they are within the confines of the law. Contempt of cop is not a crime no matter how much some police would make you think it is.

Police draw from the same applicant pool as the rest of society. There are good cops and there are people who were pushed around in high school and want to feel in charge now. I have friends and family members who are police officers and I've met lots of great people who serve their departments well and a few real a-holes.

Cokebottle
06-14-2011, 8:09 PM
Does it start with 'toy' and end with 'box'?

:rofl2:
In the opposite of "Downland"?

Cokebottle
06-14-2011, 8:11 PM
My GF does parties for her friends and friends of friends, she has a whole suitcase full of the stuff.

Her "Kit" has a huge cache of...um...yea, would be interesting to get pulled over and have an officer search the case.

:rofl2:
Your GF's name isn't Rhonda is it?

Cokebottle
06-14-2011, 8:16 PM
about the refusing to open a locked gun case. If you have a handgun you legally own, are coming back from or heading to the range, and didn't do anything wrong, why not just comply? Yes officer I have a handgun in a locked case in the trunk, here is the paperwork for it and the key to unlock it and you can verify it is unloaded if you'd like. Take him 15-20 minutes to run your paperwork and off you go. (never gotten pulled over with guns in the trunk so not speaking from experience)
Feel free to surrender your 4th and 5th amendment rights.

Don't be surprised when "officer friendly" finds something that actually IS illegal in your vehicle that you didn't know about.

I bought a '69 Camaro from a friend's boyfriend.
Drove that car for 4 years. Got stopped by cops a couple of times a year.
Driving home one day, ended up going through some high water and the carpet got wet.
I pulled the seats and carpet. UNDER the carpet, under the passenger seat, was a baggie with 2oz of moldy pot.
This was in the 80s when possession of any amount of pot was a crime.

I have no clue how long it was there. As far as I know, he didn't smoke weed.

Never EVER consent to a search. Make them get a warrant.

Quser.619
06-14-2011, 8:17 PM
I watched that ACLU video a few years ago & in every stop I've had since, to all questions posed, I have asked "Am I being detained or am I free to go?"

Still get a ticket, but they have never searched my car since.

Cokebottle
06-14-2011, 8:22 PM
So we agree the answer to "Do you have any guns in the car" is...

"I have nothing illegal in my car officer"
No, that is not the correct answer, because you may in fact have something illegal in your car and not realize it.

"I'd prefer to talk about why you stopped me"
"If you'd like to meet at Denny's for coffee and pie, I'll be happy to talk with you about guns"
"I am not going to answer any questions at this time"

Or maybe.... "I have a modest collection at home, do you collect guns? What kind do you like?"

Cokebottle
06-14-2011, 8:24 PM
Zero reason to have paperwork with you for a firearm you own under these circumstances.
Ya... the only paperwork that I carry is the flowchart and OCSD/SacPD training bulletins, and I only carry those when I have the ARs with me.

hoffmang
06-14-2011, 8:33 PM
Never EVER consent to a search. Make them get a warrant.

Here are two things to keep in mind. Warrantless un-consented searches up the ante for law enforcement as they will have to ex-ante explain what exception they used to search and find whatever they're trying to convict you of. Second, if you can force them to get a warrant, that document and its affidavit will significantly restrict the battlefield they will play on to try to convict you later.

DA's love making up new theories when they find the crap they weren't looking for. Having a warrant makes it easier to explain to the court that it was a pretext.

-Gene

G1500
06-14-2011, 8:39 PM
In the opposite of "Downland"?

Yes.

Your GF's name isn't Rhonda is it?

Nope.

Sub95
06-14-2011, 8:56 PM
in most of my dealing with cops when pulled over, they have always ask me about guns,weapons,knives,drugs.

I asked my cop friends about this, they told me some people are dumb enough to reply back to the questions and tell them they have this or that, its just a way to be able to search them and the car, as some people forget what they have in the car ( mostly drugs stashed or roach in ash tray ) But most cops whos been doing there job for a few years know the different types of people out there, do they get that wrong sometime , yea they do. they just always say its for cops saftey asking those question, well they know the risk when they became a cop so they can deal with that risk.

Maestro Pistolero
06-14-2011, 10:09 PM
Where is the obligation to not be a jerk? Remember who initiated the contact.

(BTW, do cops routinely ask about guns, drugs, etc? I don't think I've ever been asked, not that I get stopped very often. OTOH, I'm white, middle-aged, and have a crew-cut, so that may play into it)

Of course, there's no law that says you have to be nice. But the process of refusing a search is inherently confrontational. Being a jerk doesn't serve any good purpose. It only escalates the interaction unnecessarily.

Maestro Pistolero
06-14-2011, 10:20 PM
"I have nothing illegal in my car officer"
No, that is not the correct answer, because you may in fact have something illegal in your car and not realize it.Although that's highly unlikely to impossible in my case, what's the harm in saying it? It's not a federal agent, so you could even lie to them intentionally without legal consequences (I'm not suggesting this).

An unintentionally incorrect answer may raise their suspicion after the fact, but by then who cares? They will have already conducted an illegal search without consent. And NOW they're on the hook for an illegal search. If you refuse a search, for which they have no PC, and no RAS, and they do it anyway you haven't lost anything by telling them you have nothing illegal in the car, IMO, Even if it turns out you were wrong and your dullard cousin Fester left something illegal in your ash tray in the back seat, you haven't lost a thing.

They either had RAS, PC, or consent, or they didn't.

Excelsior
06-14-2011, 10:20 PM
As Gene pointed out I think that you grossly underestimate the number of inappropriate arrests and general annoyance that often comes with firearms ownership in CA. Certainly that comes from disparate background and personal experiences. I'm sure that Gene doesn't have to help out all the people who have simply roll over and give up their 4th amendment rights so that 12031(e) doesn't have to be invoked.

Pardon me? I said "Yes, I am sure they have happened but I suspect they are exceedingly rare. I think they can be made largely non existent for an individual if they take into consideration the points that I just mentioned." and Gene said "Sadly they are fare rarer than you think. Add in that most street cops are not well trained on CA's byzantine firearms laws and I can tell you that we see a lot of folks arrested for things that aren't even crimes."

And I'm sure you don't hang out with people who make it a point to stand up for all their rights to the point of getting confrontational about it. Personally, I have been pulled over a few times, once every 3 or 4 years and I've been asked about weapons before (yes, in my minivan with the kids in it.) How one chooses to handle that is their own business as long as they are within the confines of the law. Contempt of cop is not a crime no matter how much some police would make you think it is.
Actually it would be more accurate to say that I don't hang out with losers looking for trouble -- in fact you talk about their HS experiences in your next paragraph. Your comments about being pulled over and asked about weapons doesn't past the smell test so I won't comment further.

Police draw from the same applicant pool as the rest of society. There are good cops and there are people who were pushed around in high school and want to feel in charge now. I have friends and family members who are police officers and I've met lots of great people who serve their departments well and a few real a-holes.
Actually no, they don't. There are a great many people -- the physically or mentally handicapped, the grossly out of physical condition, felons, etc. that are not part of the pool for potential LEOs.

locosway
06-14-2011, 10:23 PM
When I was 18 I had my truck tossed because of an empty ammo box in the bed. That was a very rough encounter, and had I known my rights it would have went very differently.

hoffmang
06-14-2011, 10:24 PM
Pardon me? I said "Yes, I am sure they have happened but I suspect they are exceedingly rare. I think they can be made largely non existent for an individual if they take into consideration the points that I just mentioned." and Gene said "Sadly they are fare rarer than you think. Add in that most street cops are not well trained on CA's byzantine firearms laws and I can tell you that we see a lot of folks arrested for things that aren't even crimes."


I think I may have misstated. These sorts of incidents are much more far from rare than one would think/wish.

-Gene

Excelsior
06-14-2011, 10:27 PM
in most of my dealing with cops when pulled over, they have always ask me about guns,weapons,knives,drugs.

Just what the heck are you getting pulled over for? I have been pulled over 3-4 times in the past 5-6 years because college students love to steal the tags off my ancient pick-up that sits out on the street. Not one one time was I asked about any of what you mention.

I asked my cop friends about this, they told me some people are dumb enough to reply back to the questions and tell them they have this or that, its just a way to be able to search them and the car, as some people forget what they have in the car ( mostly drugs stashed or roach in ash tray ) But most cops whos been doing there job for a few years know the different types of people out there, do they get that wrong sometime , yea they do. they just always say its for cops saftey asking those question, well they know the risk when they became a cop so they can deal with that risk.
I don't buy it. Being asked that on a traffic stop? Nope. On a license tag stop? Nope. Just what are you getting pulled over for? Oh yeah, and what do you say not to be "dumb enough to reply back to the questions?"

Excelsior
06-14-2011, 10:30 PM
I think I may have misstated. These sorts of incidents are much more far from less rare than one would think/wish.

-Gene
OK.

locosway
06-14-2011, 10:30 PM
Just what the heck are you getting pulled over for? I have been pulled over 3-4 times in the past 5-6 years because college students love to steal the tags off my ancient pick-up that sits out on the street. Not one one time was I asked about any of what you mention.


I don't buy it. Being asked that on a traffic stop? Nope. On a license tag stop? Nope. Just what are you getting pulled over for? Oh yeah, and what do you say not to be "dumb enough to reply back to the questions?"

I've been pulled over probably more than the average person, and I'd say it's a 50/50 thing about the weapons. I have found that as I've gotten older and started driving not so flash cars that the questions just stopped completely. Granted I haven't been pulled over in quite a few years now. When I was younger I would almost always be asked if they could search my car.

battleship
06-14-2011, 10:36 PM
So Gene if i get pulled over and the officer sees a locked container on my passenger seat and asks me if i have any firearms with me. Is it good enough to just say i have nothing illegal upon my person or inside the car. How do you think hes going to respond, im guessing saying i have nothing illegal in the car is going to make him think i have a firearm in that locked container, legal and unloaded or not, were do you think its going to go from there. Whats his next step going to be.

hoffmang
06-14-2011, 11:00 PM
OK.

Ouch - good point!

-Gene

hoffmang
06-14-2011, 11:01 PM
So Gene if i get pulled over and the officer sees a locked container on my passenger seat and asks me if i have any firearms with me. Is it good enough to just say i have nothing illegal upon my person or inside the car. How do you think hes going to respond, im guessing saying i have nothing illegal in the car is going to make him think i have a firearm in that locked container, legal and unloaded or not, were do you think its going to go from there. Whats his next step going to be.

If you're polite and calm his next step is either going to be "not much" or an illegal search.

-Gene

chiselchst
06-14-2011, 11:15 PM
What if I had my lockbox, with "contraband" emblazoned on it, and the police DID stop me, search me, break into it, and the overzealous officer decided to go ahead haul me in for whatever reason (he didn't like me and decided to go with the excuse of "tying up police resources")?
Then, whilst in court with CGF, trying to clear my good name and standing in the community, some half-assed media-type finds our little discussion here outlining a "plan" to stir the pot and manages to affect populace perceptions against us because of it (not that I think that they don't lay out plans of their own, already)?

I was thinking the exact same thing.

Response is without reading past this post...yet!

hoffmang
06-14-2011, 11:17 PM
I was thinking the exact same thing.

Response is without reading past this post...yet!

Setting the government up to stop it form violating the Fourth Amendment isn't any sort of actual PR problem.

Violating the bill of rights is a PR problem for the government.

-Gene

Falconis
06-14-2011, 11:21 PM
How many times a year does CGF get wind of something like this. When it does happen is there any statistical data if it happens more at a big department or a smaller department or is it just across the board?

hoffmang
06-14-2011, 11:26 PM
How many times a year does CGF get wind of something like this. When it does happen is there any statistical data if it happens more at a big department or a smaller department or is it just across the board?

It's across the board and I'd say that we're seeing it about once a month.

-Gene

G1500
06-14-2011, 11:32 PM
It's across the board and I'd say that we're seeing it about once a month.

-Gene

Holy cow. Are these situations where a party has been arrested and/or having property seized, or just situations where someone is harassed into opening a locked container?

hoffmang
06-14-2011, 11:39 PM
Holy cow. Are these situations where a party has been arrested and/or having property seized, or just situations where someone is harassed into opening a locked container?

Arrested with property seized. Well, usually it's cited for a wobbler with property seized after a search, but still not so good.

-Gene

Sub95
06-14-2011, 11:41 PM
I don't buy it. Being asked that on a traffic stop? Nope. On a license tag stop? Nope. Just what are you getting pulled over for? Oh yeah, and what do you say not to be "dumb enough to reply back to the questions?"

Where i live it happens more then anyone would think. most stops around where i live are for speeding or rolling stop, light out.

the last dealing with cops was a long time ago ( marker light was the wrong color ) and had these question ask to me and being told i was on drugs, so i got out of my car and told him lets go get tested, at that time he studdered alot and said you are lucky i have a call to go too and he left.

my cop friends say just to stay quite and dont say anything, as you dont have to talk to them at all.

Excelsior
06-15-2011, 1:43 AM
I just can't see people getting pulled over seemingly at random or possibly for traffic citations and being grilled about guns and asked if they give consent to having their vehicles searched. I'm sure it happens but reading some postings here it sounds like it's a monthly exercise for some people.

It almost sounds like people are driving around with: Remington and Ruger stickers on their bumpers, NRA and "this truck ensured by Smith & Wesson" decals on the back window, an empty rear window gun rack, a Dillon Precision t-shirt that shows off the Colt Tattoo on their left bicep hanging out the window, a Winchester coffee cup in the console while wearing a Glock cap.

I just stow the legal to own gear in a legal manner and ENSURE that it cannot be seen. I cannot imagine having ANY LEO ask me if they could search my car UNLESS I did something stupid like drink and drive.

locosway
06-15-2011, 1:51 AM
It almost sounds like people are driving around with: Remington and Ruger stickers on their bumpers, NRA and "this truck ensured by Smith & Wesson" decals on the back window, an empty rear window gun rack, a Dillon Precision t-shirt that shows off the Colt Tattoo on their left bicep hanging out the window, a Winchester coffee cup in the console while wearing a Glock cap.

Is that a crime, or even warrant a search of a vehicle?

I find it crazy that we have this right to be armed, yet LEO's are so nuts over firearms. Wow, there's a gun case, so what?

boxcab
06-15-2011, 4:01 AM
Is that a crime, or even warrant a search of a vehicle?


Yes, if you wear your Mao jacket and openly carry your little red book, you are a good citizen and require little of the people's police valuable time.

If you are brazen and non-conformal, expressing individuality and pride, you need a closer inspection and a lecture by the people's police. You brought it on yourself because "you" wanted to be an individual. No room for that in our quaint society.

It is obvious, is it not?

CHS
06-15-2011, 7:40 AM
I find it crazy that we have this right to be armed, yet LEO's are so nuts over firearms. Wow, there's a gun case, so what?

While the feds may have finally recognized the right to be armed, that has yet to have happened in California.

The problem with California is that LEO's DONT encounter lawfully armed people throughout their daily routine. They encounter unlawfully armed gangsters and criminals, and the occasional guy coming back from the range. I have a feeling that the problem comes from their 99% "bad" encounters spoiling it for those 1% "good" (or: lawful) encounters. Once we have a recognized right to be armed in California, that may change.

Excelsior
06-15-2011, 10:53 AM
Is that a crime, or even warrant a search of a vehicle?

I find it crazy that we have this right to be armed, yet LEO's are so nuts over firearms. Wow, there's a gun case, so what?
Naw, but it would be indicative of a low IQ.

Excelsior
06-15-2011, 10:57 AM
Yes, if you wear your Mao jacket and openly carry your little red book, you are a good citizen and require little of the people's police valuable time.

If you are brazen and non-conformal, expressing individuality and pride, you need a closer inspection and a lecture by the people's police. You brought it on yourself because "you" wanted to be an individual. No room for that in our quaint society.

It is obvious, is it not?
Man, you got that right! False pride! The very thing that drives the ludicrous rantings of the effete keyboard kommandos! Just look at some of the postings on this thread. People begging for a fight with law enforcement (at least from the safety of their keyboards.)

"Individual", huh? :rolleyes:

Excelsior
06-15-2011, 11:01 AM
While the feds may have finally recognized the right to be armed, that has yet to have happened in California.

The problem with California is that LEO's DONT encounter lawfully armed people throughout their daily routine. They encounter unlawfully armed gangsters and criminals, and the occasional guy coming back from the range. I have a feeling that the problem comes from their 99% "bad" encounters spoiling it for those 1% "good" (or: lawful) encounters. Once we have a recognized right to be armed in California, that may change.
I would agree but I would also say that some of the comments on this thread would lead to bad encounters. While I realize most keyboard kommandos are talking smack if they were actually to carry out what they pronounce if would further spoil things for the 1%

kemasa
06-15-2011, 11:05 AM
I find it crazy that we have this right to be armed, yet LEO's are so nuts over firearms. Wow, there's a gun case, so what?

SOME LEO are nuts over firearms, others do not care at all. It seems to be based on the organization. The CHP seems to have issues, whereas my local police do not. You just can't paint with such a broad brush.

Also, it seems that Chiefs/Sheriffs are more anti-gun than officers on the streets. Chiefs/Sheriff's get more money if crime is high enough, but too much will cause them to get thrown out. Officers on the street care more about their lives and reducing crime makes their lives safer.

locosway
06-15-2011, 11:06 AM
Naw, but it would be indicative of a low IQ.

So people with a low IQ deserve to have their rights violated?

Should we just make a law saying people under say, 100 do not get rights?

locosway
06-15-2011, 11:08 AM
While the feds may have finally recognized the right to be armed, that has yet to have happened in California.

The problem with California is that LEO's DONT encounter lawfully armed people throughout their daily routine. They encounter unlawfully armed gangsters and criminals, and the occasional guy coming back from the range. I have a feeling that the problem comes from their 99% "bad" encounters spoiling it for those 1% "good" (or: lawful) encounters. Once we have a recognized right to be armed in California, that may change.

My point was that we have a right guaranteed by the constitution. It's not some secret or fantasy, it's real. I know CA has issues with this concept but it's just outrageous that LE have the tone they do when dealing with firearms. Yes, enforce the laws, but don't take on the fear mongering attitude that politicians have.

cindynles
06-15-2011, 11:10 AM
Man, you got that right! False pride! The very thing that drives the ludicrous rantings of the effete keyboard kommandos! Just look at some of the postings on this thread. People begging for a fight with law enforcement (at least from the safety of their keyboards.)

"Individual", huh? :rolleyes:

Not just from my keyboard. This happend to me on BLM land in an area where it is legal to shoot. We were doing nothing wrong and still hassled. This is what you deal with (for now) as a California Shooter.

n4hyEnDCTCA

sandman21
06-15-2011, 11:18 AM
Not just from my keyboard. This happend to me on BLM land in an area where it is legal to shoot. We were doing nothing wrong and still hassled. This is what you deal with (for now) as a California Shooter.



This never happened you made up the whole thing behind your keyboard. ;)

Paul S
06-15-2011, 11:20 AM
While the feds may have finally recognized the right to be armed, that has yet to have happened in California.

The problem with California is that LEO's DONT encounter lawfully armed people throughout their daily routine. They encounter unlawfully armed gangsters and criminals, and the occasional guy coming back from the range. I have a feeling that the problem comes from their 99% "bad" encounters spoiling it for those 1% "good" (or: lawful) encounters. Once we have a recognized right to be armed in California, that may change.

As retired law enforcement I can tell you sir...you've hit the nail squarely on this one.

cindynles
06-15-2011, 11:25 AM
This never happened you made up the whole thing behind your keyboard. ;)

This wasn't the first time, but it was the first time I got it on video. A camera is now always in my range bag.

5thgen4runner
06-15-2011, 11:42 AM
My point was that we have a right guaranteed by the constitution. It's not some secret or fantasy, it's real. I know CA has issues with this concept but it's just outrageous that LE have the tone they do when dealing with firearms. Yes, enforce the laws, but don't take on the fear mongering attitude that politicians have.

+1 :cool2:

sandman21
06-15-2011, 12:04 PM
This wasn't the first time, but it was the first time I got it on video. A camera is now always in my range bag.

Never happened the first time, I mean just ask people on this board. ;)

ubet
06-15-2011, 12:06 PM
Not just from my keyboard. This happend to me on BLM land in an area where it is legal to shoot. We were doing nothing wrong and still hassled. This is what you deal with (for now) as a California Shooter.

n4hyEnDCTCA

I love at 31 secs, it appears her finger is on the trigger with the muzzle pointed at her knee.

Watching that whole thing makes my stomach turn. I have a HUGE problem with forest service/blm having the ability to do this kind of thing (I can understand they need a firearm, some of them, but they dont need this kind of power).

Cokebottle
06-15-2011, 5:12 PM
I don't buy it. Being asked that on a traffic stop? Nope. On a license tag stop? Nope. Just what are you getting pulled over for? Oh yeah, and what do you say not to be "dumb enough to reply back to the questions?"
It happens.

Pulled over for a license plate light out.

The following "fishing" ensued:

Are you on probation?
Have you ever been arrested?
Why are there two bucket seats in the back? You know those are a hot theft item.

I didn't get a ticket for the light, but the entire encounter lasted over 20 minutes.

Maestro Pistolero
06-15-2011, 5:42 PM
Originally Posted by Excelsior
I don't buy it. Being asked that on a traffic stop? Nope. On a license tag stop? Nope. Just what are you getting pulled over for? Oh yeah, and what do you say not to be "dumb enough to reply back to the questions?"Happened to me one week ago. Riding in my buddy's truck who's 65. I'm conservative looking (at least I was that day), 51 years old.

Officer asks for Lic/Reg and whether there are any weapons in the car. "I'm CCW", I tell him, "it's on my right hip", he requests my CCW permit which I provide, and that was the end of the issue. Never ask me to produce the weapon, never ask to get out of the car. Just courteous from A to Z. My buddy even got a break on the ticket.

HogKiller
06-15-2011, 9:00 PM
At the risk of being otherwise instructed. I've yet to find what constitutes a 'locked' container. I'm going to assume that a zippered bag with a lock constitutes a locked container. IF this is indeed the case and I most certainly hope so, for total openess, get a Canon camera bag and hope the LEO can't spell. Or give me a call and I'll embroider Cannon on it for you.

What brings this up is I use locked camera bags to carry my handguns. I don't want to get into too much trouble.:D

G1500
06-15-2011, 9:09 PM
At the risk of being otherwise instructed. I've yet to find what constitutes a 'locked' container. I'm going to assume that a zippered bag with a lock constitutes a locked container. IF this is indeed the case and I most certainly hope so, for total openess, get a Canon camera bag and hope the LEO can't spell. Or give me a call and I'll embroider Cannon on it for you.

What brings this up is I use locked camera bags to carry my handguns. I don't want to get into too much trouble.:D


PC 12026.1 (http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/cacode/PEN/3/4/2/1/2/s12026.1) (c) As used in this section, "locked container" means a secure container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, key lock, combination lock, or similar locking device.

hoffmang
06-15-2011, 10:20 PM
The number one way that traffic stops escalate to firearms searches is that good and honest men and women answer "yes" to "do you have any guns/weapons in the car?" and are usually travelling to or from the range.

Happens quite a bit. Screwed for being polite and honest to a law enforcement officer. I think your keyboard commando is somewhat off base in that light.

-Gene

BC9696
06-15-2011, 10:28 PM
Okay, gotta different question. My ammo (including magazines are locked in an ammo box. My pistols and rifles are locked in a separate gun case unloaded. I am perfectly legal in every way. Wouldn't it be better to comply, open the case as asked? Would that not the cleanest way to avoid a conflict and raise officer suspicions? What risk is there if I am legal?

G1500
06-15-2011, 10:40 PM
Okay, gotta different question. My ammo (including magazines are locked in an ammo box. My pistols and rifles are locked in a separate gun case unloaded. I am perfectly legal in every way. Wouldn't it be better to comply, open the case as asked? Would that not the cleanest way to avoid a conflict and raise officer suspicions? What risk is there if I am legal?

Look one post above yours.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=6600813&postcount=244

Excelsior
06-16-2011, 12:39 AM
So we agree the answer to "Do you have any guns in the car" is...

"I have nothing illegal in my car officer"

LEO: That's not what I asked you. Are you intoxicated, slow or one of those smarty guys?

"I have nothing illegal in my car officer"

LEO: Please step out of the vehicle...

locosway
06-16-2011, 12:45 AM
LEO: That's not what I asked you. Are you intoxicated, slow or one of those smarty guys?



LEO: Please step out of the vehicle...

:rolleyes:

BodyPiercingByColt
06-16-2011, 4:28 AM
I think this discussion is largely about getting twisted up in knots and thumping one's chest about a situation that is largely non-existent if people use their brains by:
Stowing their legal gear in a legal manner.
Making sure NO shooting gear, t-shirts, decals, etc. are in plain sight of the LEO.
Comporting themselves in a professional manner and not in a confrontational one.

Yes, as a general rule, people should try to be inconspicuous. IMO
HOWEVER, should they HAVE TO (especially to avoid being hassled)? NO
What's more, if the situation were to arise where they could not stow the gear in the trunk (maybe they're driving a truck), the LEO should show enough decorum to not be a dick about it.
The point is that their gear IS being stowed in a legal manner, and yet they are still being given "the shaft."

I think these "fishing expeditions" are largely the fantasy of people who crave to at least talk about such confrontations. Yes, I am sure they have happened but I suspect they are exceedingly rare.

No. Look, I haven't been asked/fished. But I like LEOs and am friendly with them EVEN WHEN THEY PULL ME OVER. However... I have heard about them fishing from friends (which I admit is only second-hand) AND whenever I watch the tv show Cops they always ask the driver those questions.

Just what the heck are you getting pulled over for? I have been pulled over 3-4 times in the past 5-6 years because college students love to steal the tags off my ancient pick-up that sits out on the street. Not one one time was I asked about any of what you mention.
I don't buy it. Being asked that on a traffic stop? Nope. On a license tag stop? Nope. Just what are you getting pulled over for? Oh yeah, and what do you say not to be "dumb enough to reply back to the questions?"

So you're being this much of a "keyboard kommando" yourself... just because it's never happened to you, personally? You're insulting people on here who are sharing their firsthand experiences and insisting that they must be lying. LEOs are trained to observe. And with every observation, the situation changes. I just wonder if you'd change your tune if you ever encountered a dick cop.

Naw, but it would be indicative of a low IQ.

So you own no party favors/nothing with a corporate logo? And anyone who would is just an inbred hick, instead of someone who enjoys the products of a company (or works for them and gets free stuff) and feels pride in their ownership/wants to give further financial support to a company. I happen to have respect for the performance of H&K products. However, I don't have the money to own one of their firearms myself, so I bought their t-shirt. It's comfy, and I wear it to the gym. It's a nice conversation starter. Even with a sheriff I went up to in JambaJuice to ask him about his sidearm (it was a 1911... how often do you see cops with those these days?)
The point of this thread is that illegal searches happen frequently. As Gene said, at least once a month. And that's just the ones reported to CalGuns. So the people here are curious as to what they can or should do if they should ever have the misfortune to find themselves in that situation. It is always your right to disagree; however, you are not providing or even allowing for positive discourse. Kindly move on to a different thread.

Scarecrow Repair
06-16-2011, 5:43 AM
Keep it simple. Why do people put so much drama into this?

I get a speeding ticket every 5 years or so. Never been asked about weapons. I know if the cop asked me that, my jaw would drop and I'd say "Huh" or "Wha?" or "Say what?" or something similar, and if he repeated it, I'd laugh and say "You gotta be kidding. What kind of a question is that?" and if he persisted, well, now I know enough to ask if that is why I got stopped, but before I joined CFN, I would have been baffled and probably kept on asking questions for answers, like "Why the heck would I do that?".

You don't have to be some legalistic jerk. Just don't answer. Pretend you're 10 years old and your mother wants to know where you've been for the last half hour and why didn't you hear her yelling for you, and you've been playing doctor with little Susie. Just deflect all questions with dumb questions of your own.