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View Full Version : What do you think about allowing under 21s to get pistol and CCW?


bluebird
06-11-2011, 10:11 PM
I'm very tired right now and I hope you will forgive me if some of the stuff I'm typing isn't very clear. But this happened this morning (yeah 12-4am).

In short, I went to karaoke yesterday with friends who just graduated from high school and some random dudes just came into our room and did a bunch of weird stuff (they looked creepy and just sat down next to my female friends and tried to talk to them). We were uncomfortable with the situation so we kindly asked them to leave but they came back later and we asked them to leave again. Apparently they were waiting for us to leave when I was going to the bathroom. Luckily they left since we stayed there for so long.

I'm very glad no one was hurt in the situation but I was definitely afraid someone would get hurt and that would be us because they were bigger than us and in such a tight environment I was afraid they might have knives.

It's not like if I have a CCW I will draw on them but I feel very insecure at that time but if situation arises I would wish I have something that I can defend myself and my friends with.

I happened to have a Victorinox with me but I don't think I will be able to deploy it on time and we'd be dead if they were actually bad guys. You can argue that in such a tight environment there's nothing I can use besides my fists but in some other situations (like them waiting for us) I feel that a CCW might give me another option if our lives are in danger.

I do plan to get pepper spray in the near future (cause I spent a fortune on my first AR and I am low on spending on other stuff). Well, at least it's something. But I mean, I dunno how a pepper spray will help in a tight environment. I do agree a gun wouldn't work either as we'd all be deaf and dead if they had knives.

I believe CCW shall be shall-issued and the government needs to have special permits for under 21s to get a handgun (I don't care even if I have to take a year long class at school before getting it). Thoughts?

G60
06-11-2011, 10:16 PM
Jennings v BATFE is a lawsuit challenging the restriction.

Stryprod
06-11-2011, 10:32 PM
It scares me as the adolescent brain is not fully developed (observation AND science) but it is the age we have collectively decided you are old enough to fight for this country, vote, and be considered an adult, so you should be able to own a pistol. Fear alone is no reason to deny an adult their due liberties.

I'd imagine, minus a few "spoiled?" ones, it would take a lot of responsibility to be 18 and afford a handgun.

Pred@tor
06-11-2011, 10:34 PM
I dont care im 24

mag360
06-11-2011, 10:38 PM
A friend of mine was killed at a house party in Sacramento on Halloween 2008, some thugs from a local gang decided they'd crash the party (friends of a friend who was invited) and wouldn't leave when asked. They were groping the girls, stole a camera, etc. In the end, they shot multiple people, Pat was shot in the head when he tried to tackle one of gang members, but slipped and fell. They shot him on the ground.

Your situation sounds similar except it's a smaller environment.

This happens across Sacramento all the time, and it usually goes like this:

1. group of college aged friends have party and invite friends who are like them.
2. a friend in that group, without realizing the consequences, invites a friend (not college student, not responsible, etc) who is "outside" the comfort zone(race, socio-economic status, pants on the ground type of BS) of the original group.
3. downfall...this friend brings his own group of friends, and calamity ensues as the original group is VERY upset with the unwelcome cast.
4. typically fist fights, broken bottles, vandalized cars and broken window is the worst I've seen (til Halloween 08).


I don't know how a CCW would help in these type of party situations, all you can do is your best to prevent this crap from happening. (or leave, my close friends did that several times when this would happen at other houses). If it's at someones house, you don't need a CCW to carry there if you have permission. And you don't need to be 21 to get a pistol. Shotguns can be owned under 18 even. Make sure invitee's realize that they are NOT welcome to invite anyone else. Institute a "this text is your invite" policy. Control the door and access in/out of the house. As much as it sucks, call the Sheriff/Police on your own party BEFORE anything escalates past asking the people to leave.

jshoebot
06-11-2011, 10:38 PM
I'm fine with it. I don't see anything in the 2nd Amendment saying "..shall not be infringed, unless you're under 21."

Pred@tor
06-11-2011, 10:45 PM
everyone is different too and mature at different rates

$P-Ritch$
06-11-2011, 10:46 PM
I feel that once you are considered an adult you should be afforded all the adult responsibilities available. Since the age on legal adulthood is currently set at 18, that is when one should be able to apply for a permit and purchase a handgun. Hell, they can already vote and join the army.

There is always going to be some older folks who will complain about the younger generation and how much the thought of them carrying guns scares them. You'll just have to ignore their hasty generalizations that group everyone from the younger crowd into a bunch of tweakers and gang bangers. Plus, all those miscreants that they fear have no respect for the law and are more than likely carrying illegally anyways.

I've known some extremely responsible young adults still in their teens. Meanwhile on the reverse, I've seen some extremely irresponsible behavior from more "seasoned" individuals. For example, a range master at the local range (about 55 years old) once told me that if his dog ever got hit by a car he would probably get his gun and shoot the driver. I chuckled, but he did not and I know he has plenty of guns to choose from. Age does not equal responsible behavior.

On a side note, every time I've gone to gun training courses the most unsafe individuals (sweeping/ND's/etc) have all been in the 40+ crowd. :hide:

L84CABO
06-11-2011, 11:03 PM
everyone is different too and mature at different rates

Thought you didn't care? :rolleyes:

bluebird
06-11-2011, 11:04 PM
Did I mention some RANDOM people just entered our room? And to address the "age" issue, I had suggested that the law requires under 21s to take extra courses. Heck, I think every CCWers should.

MASTERLAB
06-11-2011, 11:09 PM
If you can vote, if you can die for your country, you should be allowed to have and carry the arm of your choice, in the manner you choose

Riodog
06-11-2011, 11:15 PM
It scares me as the adolescent brain is not fully developed (observation AND science) but it is the age we have collectively decided you are old enough to fight for this country, vote, and be considered an adult, so you should be able to own a pistol. Fear alone is no reason to deny an adult their due liberties.

I'd imagine, minus a few "spoiled?" ones, it would take a lot of responsibility to be 18 and afford a handgun.

While I'd agree with the very first part of your statement, I find that I'm very uncomfortable with the idea of 99% of "? -> whomever ? carrying without benefit of any self control training". This comes with maturity and experience.
My nephew is 18 and I put a gun in his hand when he was 7. He's had all the training afforded and I still wouldn't want him carrying a weapon on a daily venue. The judgement is just not there.
Rio

Stryprod
06-11-2011, 11:19 PM
Did I mention some RANDOM people just entered our room? And to address the "age" issue, I had suggested that the law requires under 21s to take extra courses. Heck, I think every CCWers should.

Hate to break it to you but life is weird and random S**t, whoops, stuff happens and way more often than not you will be just fine :).

Negative on under 21 needing "additional courses" as you are starting to walk down the line of restricting a right, not a privileged like driving. What additional course should be required? How many and for how long? What is the acceptable grade or level to pass? Do you have to own a gun to partake or is renting ok? Should women take extra course because they seem to be more scared and less likely to shoot a gun? Why stop at 21?

See the crud stream you open up?

As I myself have said, as well as others.... if you can vote, die, and be put to death for crimes, you have just as much right to protect yourself.... no matter how smart you think you are :p

Stryprod
06-11-2011, 11:25 PM
While I'd agree with the very first part of your statement, I find that I'm very uncomfortable with the idea of 99% of "? -> whomever ? carrying without benefit of any self control training". This comes with maturity and experience.
My nephew is 18 and I put a gun in his hand when he was 7. He's had all the training afforded and I still wouldn't want him carrying a weapon on a daily venue. The judgement is just not there.
Rio

Your opinion and the same reason used to deny 18yo the right to vote (amongst others).

Why stop at 21 for pistols? I mean after all you can drink and drinking messes with your judgement right? Let's give a few years to get all that drinking out of the way so you can think clearly... 25 sounds good. Wait, a real responsible person is only someone who has a family so 30 sounds good... where does it stop??????

I hate to break it to you but we have to select an ARBITRARY age at some point and for better or for worse as a society we have chosen 18. Otherwise being selective in your judgement opens the field to the crap we have been dealing with. Why a 10 day waiting period??? Seemed right, etc, etc, etc.

jshoebot
06-11-2011, 11:30 PM
Negative on under 21 needing "additional courses" as you are starting to walk down the line of restricting a right, not a privileged like driving.

This is unrelated to the original post, but I hate it when people say "driving is a privilege" when it's most definitely not. Here's a good clarification of the differences: http://www.vinsuprynowicz.com/?p=776

pitchbaby
06-11-2011, 11:42 PM
If you can vote, if you can die for your country, you should be allowed to have and carry the arm of your choice, in the manner you choose

THAT^^^

When I was 18, I didn't own a gun and didn't want a gun. When I was in my mid 20's, I kinda' wanted one, but didn't want to spend the money. Now that I am older, have the money and the time to learn how to use it right, I own a few and carry them when/where permitted.

My point, some people at that age are going to want one and some aren't. I am fairly impressed when I meet the younger types who actually would want to carry one because from all that I can tell, they have their right head about them. Is that always the case... probably not... but to weed them out by flat denial seems like a terribly unfair way to handle it when you consider our government will throw them into the fray half a world away.

Stryprod
06-12-2011, 12:03 AM
This is unrelated to the original post, but I hate it when people say "driving is a privilege" when it's most definitely not. Here's a good clarification of the differences: http://www.vinsuprynowicz.com/?p=776

You know what is funny, I bet you and I are nearly 100% on the same page if we ever talked over a beer.

That being said, and I hate to say it, but "driving is a privilege, not a right" is an idiom. Whether you agree with it or not is another matter. It has a common meaning and understanding amongst English speaking people in the Country... just like the word clip or bullet unfortunately. Well those are words and not phrases, but you get my drift.

Liberty1
06-12-2011, 12:20 AM
I want my 11 year old to be able to buy a spare mag at 7-11 for her P22 and then met me at the range after school. Answer your question? :)

Meplat
06-12-2011, 1:07 AM
Boys @ 16, Girls @ 13, with parental permission, training and a comprehensive psyc evaluation.

Before we get diverted into equal protection let me say the reason for the difference and the psyc evals is that the human brain is still doing a lot of developing in the early teenage years. The ability to appreciate consequences in multi stage and multi faceted situations is developing during these years. Everyone matures at their own pace, some never make it no matter how old they get, the jails and hospitals are full of them. On average the girls are ahead of us guys. Girls are also much less disposed to violence, and more often targeted as victims.

No one knows the maturity level and judgment of a teen better than the parents, and the psyc eval would be a double check on that.


When I was a teen you were called your date's 'escort' for a reason. It was your responsibility to bring her home safe and sound, or her father, and probably yours too, would know the reason why. When my son got his driver’s license I wrote him a permission slip that he kept in his wallet that allowed him to carry legally (not CCW) like an adult. I don't think this will work anymore.

I'm fine with it but I doubt you will ever get it through the CA legislature.


I'm very tired right now and I hope you will forgive me if some of the stuff I'm typing isn't very clear. But this happened this morning (yeah 12-4am).

In short, I went to karaoke yesterday with friends who just graduated from high school and some random dudes just came into our room and did a bunch of weird stuff (they looked creepy and just sat down next to my female friends and tried to talk to them). We were uncomfortable with the situation so we kindly asked them to leave but they came back later and we asked them to leave again. Apparently they were waiting for us to leave when I was going to the bathroom. Luckily they left since we stayed there for so long.

I'm very glad no one was hurt in the situation but I was definitely afraid someone would get hurt and that would be us because they were bigger than us and in such a tight environment I was afraid they might have knives.

It's not like if I have a CCW I will draw on them but I feel very insecure at that time but if situation arises I would wish I have something that I can defend myself and my friends with.

I happened to have a Victorinox with me but I don't think I will be able to deploy it on time and we'd be dead if they were actually bad guys. You can argue that in such a tight environment there's nothing I can use besides my fists but in some other situations (like them waiting for us) I feel that a CCW might give me another option if our lives are in danger.

I do plan to get pepper spray in the near future (cause I spent a fortune on my first AR and I am low on spending on other stuff). Well, at least it's something. But I mean, I dunno how a pepper spray will help in a tight environment. I do agree a gun wouldn't work either as we'd all be deaf and dead if they had knives.

I believe CCW shall be shall-issued and the government needs to have special permits for under 21s to get a handgun (I don't care even if I have to take a year long class at school before getting it). Thoughts?

bohoki
06-12-2011, 1:13 AM
i say if you can be charged as an adult you might as well get the benefits

PsychGuy274
06-12-2011, 1:16 AM
As far as I'm concerned, whenever society says you're an adult, you should be considered an adult in all ways. That includes carrying guns and renting cars.

Meplat
06-12-2011, 1:18 AM
That is your nephew and you know him intimately. That is why I advise parental permission and a psyc eval.


While I'd agree with the very first part of your statement, I find that I'm very uncomfortable with the idea of 99% of "? -> whomever ? carrying without benefit of any self control training". This comes with maturity and experience.
My nephew is 18 and I put a gun in his hand when he was 7. He's had all the training afforded and I still wouldn't want him carrying a weapon on a daily venue. The judgement is just not there.
Rio

aklover_91
06-12-2011, 1:31 AM
Rights is rights. I'm an adult, legally. I was a boy scout. I'm still involved in scouts as an adult leader. I've never stolen a damn thing in my life, and I've never instigated a fight.

If you're going to try and tell me I can drive a car, I can vote, I could be drafted for god's sake, but that I don't deserve to carry a weapon to defend myself?

I'm going to tell you to pound effin sand. Stupid people come in all shapes, sizes, and ages; an extra arbitrary limitation based on three years difference doesn't pass the smell test. If that's the logic you're going to use, you might as well switch sides because it's the same BS the antis have been preaching forever.


I'd imagine, minus a few "spoiled?" ones, it would take a lot of responsibility to be 18 and afford a handgun.
I'm twenty, I own four, and I work retail. When I buy a gun it usually means a whole bunch of Top Ramen for the next few weeks, but it's not impossible for me to afford them. And that's handguns, as far as guns in general go I'm at thirteenish.

Carnivore
06-12-2011, 1:34 AM
Hell I know 18 year olds that are really on the ball and 50+ year olds that are so scatter brained I wouldn't trust them with a empty water pistol. 18 is fine and should be the minimum limit at which a person can buy a gun. Right to carry was already giving at birth.

PsychGuy274
06-12-2011, 1:38 AM
That is your nephew and you know him intimately. That is why I advise parental permission and a psyc eval.

A psych eval for what? Maturity? It doesn't exist.

And parental permission for a constitutional right AFTER society says you're an adult? Did you ask your mommy if it was OK for you to buy smokes porn and to go out an vote when you turned 18?

safewaysecurity
06-12-2011, 1:45 AM
In California you can get a CCW at 18 and a handgun at 18. Legally speaking of course doesn't mean it's easy. I fee like I am responsible enough to carry but I would obviously train until I felt comfortable enough in my abilities to act under stress.

Meplat
06-12-2011, 2:07 AM
A psych eval for what? Maturity? It doesn't exist.

I am not a psycoligist, but my brother is, and he says it can be done quite easily.

And parental permission for a constitutional right AFTER society says you're an adult? Did you ask your mommy if it was OK for you to buy smokes porn and to go out an vote when you turned 18?

If you read my post you will see that I was going down to 13 years old. I have no problem with 18 year olds, the brain is much farther along by that time. If you can go to the sandbox, by definition, you can pack a gun.;)

P.S. I couldn't vote or buy a beer when I was 18, but they drafted me when I was 19. Bad business that.

Funtimes
06-12-2011, 2:16 AM
As far as I'm concerned, whenever society says you're an adult, you should be considered an adult in all ways. That includes carrying guns and renting cars.

I have def done more stupid stuff in a rental after 21 :P then before... the last incident was using a mini van as a barricade as we practiced snatch and grabs with full auto weapons lol.

resident-shooter
06-12-2011, 2:26 AM
lol the reaction of a gun forum was too predictable. I suggest telling this to the people on the other side ;)

Anchors
06-12-2011, 4:48 AM
I think they should be able to CCW whatever they want, however they want. The following story as evidence, I never wanted to carry a firearm when I was 18.
I knew I wasn't responsible enough (or rather, the people around me weren't...or a combination of the two).

On the flip side, when I wanted to start carrying (and owning my own firearms), I actually became a much more responsible person. I gained a whole new respect for laws, the constitution, and politics. I started truly understanding the "avoid physical conflict at all costs" mentality, even if I knew about it before.
I would rather run than fight now and I think that is a good thing (if I can, of course).


1. group of college aged friends have party and invite friends who are like them.
2. a friend in that group, without realizing the consequences, invites a friend (not college student, not responsible, etc) who is "outside" the comfort zone(race, socio-economic status, pants on the ground type of BS) of the original group.
3. downfall...this friend brings his own group of friends, and calamity ensues as the original group is VERY upset with the unwelcome cast.
4. typically fist fights, broken bottles, vandalized cars and broken window is the worst I've seen (til Halloween 08).
.

I'm sorry about your friend...
The rest of this post has nothing to do with that situation in particular and I think the people who killed him should rot in prison...

As far as the criteria you provided, let me spin it from a different perspective.
When I was younger my friends and I would be the random group you talk about that knew one or two people there and often times we got into fights with older "frat" or "bro" kids, but that wasn't because of our race, socio-economic status, or any saggy clothing. We all looked pretty normal I guess. Some of us had a lot of tattoos or wore hoodies everywhere, but we really weren't "out of place". You wouldn't stare at us in a lecture hall or anything. Most of us didn't drink or do drugs, I guess that was "weird" compared to others our age. Anytime we were politely asked to leave when we only knew a few people, we were more than happy to oblige... For some reason, these types of guys always felt the need to start something with one of our friends in some testosterone/alcohol induced rage to show all the girls how tough they were or something. It usually had almost nothing to do with our mere presence there. It was rarely "hey, get out of here!" and was more often "I'm going to make smartass comments about this person until they notice and then try to get in their face".
Along with whatever idiot friends they recruited, they usually ended up getting beat up (and being really surprised about it) because while we never wanted to start any problems, we also weren't going to let a 250 pound college roid head (or a couple of them) beat up a 16 year old kid. That just isn't right and we always figured if they weren't going to fight fair, why should we?

I know you were talking about non-college Hispanic/Black gang members or whatever, but my point is that that has nothing to do with it and there are two sides to a lot of those stories (not the one you listed, because it is pretty obvious that the people who shot your friend were human garbage). Just don't always assume the college kids throwing the party are the reasonable and responsible ones. Economic/educational status has little to do with whether or not someone is a douche bag.

Also, I no longer subscribe the notion that this is a good idea or necessary and I haven't in years. I don't like bars or parties mostly because of my experiences with drunken tough-guy idiots, so now I completely avoid them. Problem solved. This was just a recap of my youth, which was more or less filled with stupid crap like the situation I mentioned above. I grew up near ASU campus (read: notorious "party" school), so that only exacerbated the problem.

everyone is different too and mature at different rates

Agreed. I know 15 year olds that are mature enough to CCW and 60 year olds that can't be trusted with a can opener.

There is no magic number for age, as much as we would like to think there is.
And that is in regard to almost all age based restrictions. You can charge a 14 year old with murder because he is an adult, but an 18 year old coming back from a combat deployment can't drink a beer...and you thought gun laws were illogical/hypocritical/oxymoronic .

r3dn3ck
06-12-2011, 6:56 AM
gun shows are very polite places... even the kids there seem to mostly understand that. Darwin will take care of everyone that doesn't pay attention.

Gray Peterson
06-12-2011, 7:17 AM
I find this thread funny. Despite numerous illegal policies, the carry licensing age in CA is 18.

Hopalong
06-12-2011, 7:32 AM
Insurance companies know for a fact the people under 25 are bad risks, when operating a motor vehicle.

cineski
06-12-2011, 7:41 AM
What a waste of oxygen.

I dont care im 24

Gray Peterson
06-12-2011, 7:42 AM
Insurance companies know for a fact the people under 25 are bad risks, when operating a motor vehicle.

Insuring a vehicle is not a civil right. Owning and carrying a gun is.

choprzrul
06-12-2011, 8:11 AM
Did the framers see a 16 year old male as a man or as a boy? Did 16 year old males pick up their muskets to fight and die for liberty?

Can an 18 year old join the militay and carry a weapon?

If society can ask 18 year olds to fight and die for us in far away lands, it surely must be hypocritical to tell them that they cannot exercise their civil rights here at home. I would point to 236 years of 16-18 year olds carrying weapons for the purpose of defending liberty when making the argument of allowing 18 year olds to exercise their civil rights for the purpose of self defense. Hard to argue when there is 236 years of history showing that 18 year olds CAN carry a weapon, act responsibly with it, make instataneous life and death decisions, accurately identify friend & foe, protect unarmed civilians, die for their friends, and generally become heroes for their selfless acts.

For all of the 18 year olds that have fought and died for my liberty, I say to the naysayers: back off advocating for the oppression of the civil rights of 18 year olds. Who are you to judge each and every one of them as a whole? Do you consider them as 3/5ths of a person and not worthy of their civil rights? "Some are not ready, so ban the whole group" is a dangerous thought process when it comes to liberty. I say shame on you to those who advocate such.

.

Gray Peterson
06-12-2011, 8:20 AM
Did the framers see a 16 year old male as a man or as a boy? Did 16 year old males pick up their muskets to fight and die for liberty?

Can an 18 year old join the militay and carry a weapon?

If society can ask 18 year olds to fight and die for us in far away lands, it surely must be hypocritical to tell them that they cannot exercise their civil rights here at home. I would point to 236 years of 16-18 year olds carrying weapons for the purpose of defending liberty when making the argument of allowing 18 year olds to exercise their civil rights for the purpose of self defense. Hard to argue when there is 236 years of history showing that 18 year olds CAN carry a weapon, act responsibly with it, make instataneous life and death decisions, accurately identify friend & foe, protect unarmed civilians, die for their friends, and generally become heroes for their selfless acts.

For all of the 18 year olds that have fought and died for my liberty, I say to the naysayers: back off advocating for the oppression of the civil rights of 18 year olds. Who are you to judge each and every one of them as a whole? Do you consider them as 3/5ths of a person and not worthy of their civil rights? "Some are not ready, so ban the whole group" is a dangerous thought process when it comes to liberty. I say shame on you to those who advocate such.

.

Amen and QFT

Arondos
06-12-2011, 8:28 AM
By the time I hit 21 I was certified as a nuclear power plant operator, married, and had two children.

I was able to operate a nuc plant, be issued a service weapon, marry, reproduce, raise kids, vote, drive, and drink (not at the same time), but a hand gun is to much responsibility? PLEASE

Pixs
06-12-2011, 9:08 AM
Age has nothing to do with anything. Audy Murphy was 16 when he joined the Army.

cdtx2001
06-12-2011, 9:39 AM
If you can vote, if you can die for your country, you should be allowed to have and carry the arm of your choice, in the manner you choose

^^^^^^

a1c
06-12-2011, 9:42 AM
Yes. And make 18 the drinking age while we're at it.

Attiic
06-12-2011, 10:58 AM
I personally wouldn't be opposed to a blanket requirement that everyone who gets a ccw must annually qualify to for the first 3 years, after that their home free. With that, issuing ccws to 18 year olds should be no problem. I just wouldn't want to see young mall ninjas carrying guns that they would likely do more harm than good with. Mind this is all coming from a 20 year old.

PsychGuy274
06-12-2011, 11:07 AM
I personally wouldn't be opposed to a blanket requirement that everyone who gets a ccw must annually qualify to for the first 3 years, after that their home free. With that, issuing ccws to 18 year olds should be no problem. I just wouldn't want to see young mall ninjas carrying guns that they would likely do more harm than good with. Mind this is all coming from a 20 year old.

Are you willing to take a literacy test every 3 years to be able to exercise your 1A right too?

Keala
06-12-2011, 11:09 AM
Well I think it is screwed up that people can vote @ 18 and enter the military @ 18 but drink @ 21 and buy a gun @ 21. But honestly if I had to choose between 18 & 21, I would have to say 21. Being a young person, I know how we can be...and those life changing decisions should really be made when you have reached that point of life experiences that it won't be a mistake.

So I think definitely people should wait until they are 21 for owning guns or carrying them. Also I think that if you are in the military, they should put 21+ people into combat roles ONLY! Same for smoking and voting! There are too many dumb young people out there :(

Kid Stanislaus
06-12-2011, 11:14 AM
I'm in favor of allowing it with just a bit of special training emphasizing the requirement to us lethal force ONLY as a last resort to save an innocent person's life or prevent great bodily harm. ;)

HowardW56
06-12-2011, 11:33 AM
I am torn on this issue. Should any 18-21 year old be able to purchase a handgun, probably, but there are some who aren't mature enough. Should any 18-21 year old be eligible for a CCW, probably not, but again there are some who are mature enough.

A little background here, so you can understand what I base my opinion on. For almost 10 years I volunteered as an adult advisor for a boy’s chapter of youth group for 14-18 year olds. At 14, they are all kids, screw ups/goof off's, as they got older most of them grew up and changed, but at 18 most are still too volatile for that level of responsibility. I say most, as there were some who absolutely had a handle on where they were going and what they saw in their future, and were absolutely trustworthy. There always was one or two who were wise beyond their years. But each year in the group of young men who were graduating and should be moving on, there was a percentage that were absolutely irresponsible, and behaved more like the younger kids in the group.

I have kept in touch with many of the young men who were in the group, some more than others, but generally I have been able to either directly or indirectly kept track of many of the young men. By age 21, the majority are mature adults, some will never be truly mature, but I believe that is more similar to society in general. I know a couple 50 year old goofballs that refuse to grow up.

Just my thoughts, no doubt some will disagree with me and others may agree….

Kid Stanislaus
06-12-2011, 11:40 AM
I'm very tired right now and I hope you will forgive me if some of the stuff I'm typing isn't very clear. But this happened this morning (yeah 12-4am).

In short, I went to karaoke yesterday with friends who just graduated from high school and some random dudes just came into our room and did a bunch of weird stuff (they looked creepy and just sat down next to my female friends and tried to talk to them). We were uncomfortable with the situation so we kindly asked them to leave but they came back later and we asked them to leave again. Apparently they were waiting for us to leave when I was going to the bathroom. Luckily they left since we stayed there for so long.

I'm very glad no one was hurt in the situation but I was definitely afraid someone would get hurt and that would be us because they were bigger than us and in such a tight environment I was afraid they might have knives.

It's not like if I have a CCW I will draw on them but I feel very insecure at that time but if situation arises I would wish I have something that I can defend myself and my friends with.

I happened to have a Victorinox with me but I don't think I will be able to deploy it on time and we'd be dead if they were actually bad guys. You can argue that in such a tight environment there's nothing I can use besides my fists but in some other situations (like them waiting for us) I feel that a CCW might give me another option if our lives are in danger.

I do plan to get pepper spray in the near future (cause I spent a fortune on my first AR and I am low on spending on other stuff). Well, at least it's something. But I mean, I dunno how a pepper spray will help in a tight environment. I do agree a gun wouldn't work either as we'd all be deaf and dead if they had knives.

I believe CCW shall be shall-issued and the government needs to have special permits for under 21s to get a handgun (I don't care even if I have to take a year long class at school before getting it). Thoughts?

Try locking your doors perhaps?

aklover_91
06-12-2011, 11:47 AM
Being a young person, I know how we can be...
Please don't project your own deficiencies onto other people.

Luieburger
06-12-2011, 12:00 PM
I believe that everybody 18 and up should have equal rights and privileges with no exceptions. If you can fight and die for my country, you should be able to own a handgun, buy and consume alcohol, run for president, drive a car, etc...

I'm 24 now, but when I was 18 I was quite a responsible young lad. Not every 18-20 year old is irresponsible and stupid. You're just more likely to hear about the bad ones than the good ones.

Riodog
06-12-2011, 1:01 PM
"I believe that everybody 18 and up should have equal rights and privileges with no exceptions. If you can fight and die for my country, you should be able to own a handgun, buy and consume alcohol, run for president, drive a car, etc..."

Ya know ya might have sumptin there. Guess an 18 yo wouldn't be any worst than most of our elected hacks in orifice now.
Rio

Stryprod
06-12-2011, 1:15 PM
Age has nothing to do with anything. Audy Murphy was 16 when he joined the Army.

And a grade school drop out!!!

sawchain
06-12-2011, 1:18 PM
If you're old enough to die for your country, you're old enough for anything (ccw, drinking, whatever).

Anchors
06-12-2011, 4:39 PM
Did the framers see a 16 year old male as a man or as a boy? Did 16 year old males pick up their muskets to fight and die for liberty?

Can an 18 year old join the militay and carry a weapon?

If society can ask 18 year olds to fight and die for us in far away lands, it surely must be hypocritical to tell them that they cannot exercise their civil rights here at home. I would point to 236 years of 16-18 year olds carrying weapons for the purpose of defending liberty when making the argument of allowing 18 year olds to exercise their civil rights for the purpose of self defense. Hard to argue when there is 236 years of history showing that 18 year olds CAN carry a weapon, act responsibly with it, make instataneous life and death decisions, accurately identify friend & foe, protect unarmed civilians, die for their friends, and generally become heroes for their selfless acts.

For all of the 18 year olds that have fought and died for my liberty, I say to the naysayers: back off advocating for the oppression of the civil rights of 18 year olds. Who are you to judge each and every one of them as a whole? Do you consider them as 3/5ths of a person and not worthy of their civil rights? "Some are not ready, so ban the whole group" is a dangerous thought process when it comes to liberty. I say shame on you to those who advocate such.

.

Hell yes they can and did and even were younger.

Enlisted at 14 and earned the Medal of Honor. He turned 17 six days before the actions that earned him the medal.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacklyn_H._Lucas

And then there was Willie Johnston in the Civil War that earned it when he was 11 and received it when he was 13.


By the time I hit 21 I was certified as a nuclear power plant operator, married, and had two children.

I was able to operate a nuc plant, be issued a service weapon, marry, reproduce, raise kids, vote, drive, and drink (not at the same time), but a hand gun is to much responsibility? PLEASE

Wow, I would like to hear more about this. That is pretty awesome man.

Age has nothing to do with anything. Audy Murphy was 16 when he joined the Army.

He was actually 17. He tried to enlist when he was 16, but they said he was too young. Right after he turned 17 he lied his way in saying he was 18.

Well I think it is screwed up that people can vote @ 18 and enter the military @ 18 but drink @ 21 and buy a gun @ 21. But honestly if I had to choose between 18 & 21, I would have to say 21. Being a young person, I know how we can be...and those life changing decisions should really be made when you have reached that point of life experiences that it won't be a mistake.

So I think definitely people should wait until they are 21 for owning guns or carrying them. Also I think that if you are in the military, they should put 21+ people into combat roles ONLY! Same for smoking and voting! There are too many dumb young people out there :(

If they only allowed 21+ in the military, our Combat Arms would be pretty understaffed...
By the way, you can own and openly carry a handgun at 18 in most states (like Arizona). You can also buy and openly carry shotguns/rifles in a lot of states.
Just because some young people suck doesn't mean they should punish everyone else.

Please don't project your own deficiencies onto other people.

Exactly.

Uriah02
06-12-2011, 5:06 PM
It scares me as the adolescent brain is not fully developed (observation AND science) but it is the age we have collectively decided you are old enough to fight for this country, vote, and be considered an adult, so you should be able to own a pistol. Fear alone is no reason to deny an adult their due liberties.

I have a similar sentiment in the irrational fear of immature young people, I don't think the answer is restricting young adults from exercising rights. The answer should be to expect more from our young adults. Without thread jacking the topic, compare the cultural expectations of an 18 yr old 50, 100 years ago to one today and figure out where we went wrong.

So I think definitely people should wait until they are 21 for owning guns or carrying them. Also I think that if you are in the military, they should put 21+ people into combat roles ONLY! Same for smoking and voting! There are too many dumb young people out there :(

The VAST majority of junior enlisted service members are under 21. We couldn't go to war without 18-20 year olds... From my experience, combat arms has a higher percentage of 18-20 year olds than the other fields.

loose_electron
06-12-2011, 9:04 PM
From the 60's:

Old enough to fight, old enough to vote.
(Vietnam draft at the time)

However, using a firearm in any situation entails a lot
of responsibility, and everyone needs to remember that
just because a bully is getting noisy on you doesn't give you the right
to get a gun out.

Plenty of crimes just involved in waving a gun around in public. (Brandishing violations etc.) So, you need to exercise every other option to settle the matter without bringing guns into it at all.

So, that said, ask yourself what other options you had here.
Calling the police, etc.

Expect to go to jail if you ever take a weapon out in a public place. It may get resolved in court as personal protection, but thats a decision you have to make at the time. Was your life or the life of another being directly threatened?

If the answer to the above is "no" than there should
not be a firearm in the picture.

choprzrul
06-12-2011, 9:50 PM
In case you missed it earlier:

Did the framers see a 16 year old male as a man or as a boy? Did 16 year old males pick up their muskets to fight and die for liberty?

Can an 18 year old join the militay and carry a weapon?

If society can ask 18 year olds to fight and die for us in far away lands, it surely must be hypocritical to tell them that they cannot exercise their civil rights here at home. I would point to 236 years of 16-18 year olds carrying weapons for the purpose of defending liberty when making the argument of allowing 18 year olds to exercise their civil rights for the purpose of self defense. Hard to argue when there is 236 years of history showing that 18 year olds CAN carry a weapon, act responsibly with it, make instataneous life and death decisions, accurately identify friend & foe, protect unarmed civilians, die for their friends, and generally become heroes for their selfless acts.

For all of the 18 year olds that have fought and died for my liberty, I say to the naysayers: back off advocating for the oppression of the civil rights of 18 year olds. Who are you to judge each and every one of them as a whole? Do you consider them as 3/5ths of a person and not worthy of their civil rights? "Some are not ready, so ban the whole group" is a dangerous thought process when it comes to liberty. I say shame on you to those who advocate such.

.

Agent Orange
06-12-2011, 10:01 PM
Wow, I would like to hear more about this. That is pretty awesome man.

Think about it. Then maybe you won't be so easily impressed.

The fail is strong in this thread.

BajaJames83
06-12-2011, 10:04 PM
if they can serve in the military they should be able to drink and buy handguns.
as for ccw i think they should wait a little but there are always some people that shouldnt own/ carry.......

blakdawg
06-12-2011, 10:46 PM
This is the same old gun control question/problem all over again.

Laws are for the law-abiding.

If a 15 year old gang member (or wannabe) wants to get a handgun and carry it concealed, he's gonna do that, no matter what the law says. So we are going to have hotheaded, immature, violent teenagers wandering around with concealed weapons. We don't have any means to effectively prevent that; pretending it's not possible or doesn't happen is just denial.

So the real question is do we want law-abiding teenagers (or 18-21 year olds, or whatever) to carry as well as the bad kids? Or should we have just the bad kids carrying?

It doesn't really matter if you or I like that or not - those are the facts.

Werewolf1021
06-12-2011, 10:57 PM
Intra-familial transfer allows 18-20 year olds to have a handgun registered in their name.

Barring that, I believe 18-20 year olds can have possesion of a handgun with a parent's consent.

Owned my Glock 19 since I was 19.

Again, age has nothing to do with maturity. Plenty of immature 40 somethings and sage 18 year olds.

Anchors
06-13-2011, 3:09 AM
Think about it. Then maybe you won't be so easily impressed.

The fail is strong in this thread.

I don't know, having a family and a solid job to go with it at that age still seems pretty cool to me.
I think people who start families early are awesome if they can afford it.

Theseus
06-13-2011, 4:46 AM
This clinches it, we should introduce a bill to raise the age for military recruiting to 21.

jshoebot
06-13-2011, 5:21 AM
I find this thread funny. Despite numerous illegal policies, the carry licensing age in CA is 18.

Quoted in case the OP missed it.

Pred@tor
06-13-2011, 11:07 AM
Thought you didn't care? :rolleyes:


It was the best I came up with at the time lol... Either way it dont matter to me no more and I work with 18 year olds in the military.

dantodd
06-13-2011, 12:08 PM
I think that California is an excellent example of the fact that irresponsible people who are supposedly adults can do much more accidental harm at the ballot box than with a CCW or a pistol.

dantodd
06-13-2011, 12:14 PM
Think about it. Then maybe you won't be so easily impressed.

The fail is strong in this thread.

Think about what? I have a lot of friends who graduated high school and got married the same summer then started a family. Not everyone grows up in CA where college is the norm etc.

So he likely got out of high school, got married, went into the military as a nuclear technician and had 2 kids in 3 years. Maybe not "impressive" to you but not an uncommon story or life for many folks.

Falconis
06-13-2011, 12:17 PM
I think that California is an excellent example of the fact that irresponsible people who are supposedly adults can do much more accidental harm at the ballot box than with a CCW or a pistol.

or without a condom which adds fuel to the fire

edlegault
06-13-2011, 12:21 PM
In Kalifornia (don't know about other states) an 18 year old can own and carry a weapon as a licensed guard (LOC in uniform) and as an LEO (I think). You need to be 21 to purchase a handgun, but a parent can buy and then gift transfer to under 21, but over 18 child.

meaty-btz
06-13-2011, 12:47 PM
Enlisted at 14 and earned the Medal of Honor. He turned 17 six days before the actions that earned him the medal.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacklyn_H._Lucas


That dude was hardcore: survived laying on a grenade AND survived jumping twice and having his parachute fail to open.

Hard to kill is an understatement. Men were made of sterner stuff back then.

Agent Orange
06-13-2011, 4:14 PM
So he likely got out of high school, got married, went into the military as a nuclear technician and had 2 kids in 3 years. Maybe not "impressive" to you but not an uncommon story or life for many folks.

What's impressive are your powers of deduction. That it's not uncommon was my point.

As for the thread topic the answer should be obvious to anyone who has read this forum for more than five minutes, except it should also apply to a lot of people here who're over 21.

Attiic
06-13-2011, 4:23 PM
Are you willing to take a literacy test every 3 years to be able to exercise your 1A right too?

Say what you will, but it's a lot harder to cause damage by negligently discharging ones freedom of speech than with a firearm. I don't mind if someone runs their mouth without learning proper grammar nearly as much as I mind them handling a gun without learning proper firearms safety.

PsychGuy274
06-13-2011, 4:27 PM
Say what you will, but it's a lot harder to cause damage by negligently discharging ones freedom of speech than with a firearm. I don't mind if someone runs their mouth without learning proper grammar nearly as much as I mind them handling a gun without learning proper firearms safety.

I agree that everyone should get training, but having the state require it is unacceptable.

And I can guarantee that more problems have been started over words vs. guns.

Meplat
06-13-2011, 6:59 PM
And you measure automobiles in tons, while you measure bullets in grains. Cars are at least as dangerous as guns, more so. Insurance companies know for a fact the people under 25 are bad risks, when operating a motor vehicle.

rugershooter
06-13-2011, 7:01 PM
I am torn on this issue. Should any 18-21 year old be able to purchase a handgun, probably, but there are some who aren't mature enough. Should any 18-21 year old be eligible for a CCW, probably not, but again there are some who are mature enough.

A little background here, so you can understand what I base my opinion on. For almost 10 years I volunteered as an adult advisor for a boy’s chapter of youth group for 14-18 year olds. At 14, they are all kids, screw ups/goof off's, as they got older most of them grew up and changed, but at 18 most are still too volatile for that level of responsibility. I say most, as there were some who absolutely had a handle on where they were going and what they saw in their future, and were absolutely trustworthy. There always was one or two who were wise beyond their years. But each year in the group of young men who were graduating and should be moving on, there was a percentage that were absolutely irresponsible, and behaved more like the younger kids in the group.

I have kept in touch with many of the young men who were in the group, some more than others, but generally I have been able to either directly or indirectly kept track of many of the young men. By age 21, the majority are mature adults, some will never be truly mature, but I believe that is more similar to society in general. I know a couple 50 year old goofballs that refuse to grow up.

Just my thoughts, no doubt some will disagree with me and others may agree….

Why is my life (I'm 20) less valuable than every other 21+ adult's life? That's essentially what you're saying if you don't believe that I should be able to carry a gun to defend my life. I'd have to rely on some other means of self defense or someone else to defend me. I don't see any restrictions in the 2A, age included. I don't believe there should be any age restrictions, but between the choice of 18 or 21 to own/carry, it should be 18. That's the age society has determined that we become adults. We can vote, get drafted, join the military.

When I see discussions about whether or not 18-20 year old adults should be able to own/carry handguns, it shows me the hypocrisy of many who claim to be pro-gun and the hypocrisy of my fellow citizens who expect and/or encourage 18-20 year old adults to join the military yet want to deny them their right to keep and bear arms.

Anchors
06-13-2011, 8:38 PM
That dude was hardcore: survived laying on a grenade AND survived jumping twice and having his parachute fail to open.

Hard to kill is an understatement. Men were made of sterner stuff back then.

He was a mere boy and already twice the man most of us will ever be.

You are correct.

Meplat
06-13-2011, 8:40 PM
Well I think it is screwed up that people can vote @ 18 and enter the military @ 18 but drink @ 21 and buy a gun @ 21. But honestly if I had to choose between 18 & 21, I would have to say 21. Being a young person, I know how we can be...and those life changing decisions should really be made when you have reached that point of life experiences that it won't be a mistake.

So I think definitely people should wait until they are 21 for owning guns or carrying them. Also I think that if you are in the military, they should put 21+ people into combat roles ONLY! Same for smoking and voting! There are too many dumb young people out there :(

You need to do some research. Most of your facts are either backward or sideways. There are at least 100,000 dead men and women who would be surprized to learn that you can't go into combat under 21.:rolleyes:

Meplat
06-13-2011, 9:00 PM
He was actually 17. He tried to enlist when he was 16, but they said he was too young. Right after he turned 17 he lied his way in saying he was 18.


I respectfully disagree. My recollection is that he joined at 16 by lying and saying he was 17. His Dad was dead and he got written permission from his Mom. (you could join at 17 with parental permission, still can as far as I now)

Meplat
06-13-2011, 9:14 PM
Think about what? I have a lot of friends who graduated high school and got married the same summer then started a family. Not everyone grows up in CA where college is the norm etc.

So he likely got out of high school, got married, went into the military as a nuclear technician and had 2 kids in 3 years. Maybe not "impressive" to you but not an uncommon story or life for many folks.

BTW, they don't take dummies into Nuc. school.

voiceofreason
06-13-2011, 9:20 PM
IMHO, adulthood should begin at 16. EVERYTHING, from draft to alcohol to firearms...

If you don't want to be an adult, you can try listening to your parents or other more experienced people you trust.

If you can drive a vehicle that weighs over a ton at speeds of 10-70 mph daily... you can be responsible for your decisions and actions.

If you're too immature to make such decisions, then don't act in a way that harms others to such a degree that your age truly matters.

voiceofreason
06-13-2011, 9:20 PM
IMHO, adulthood should begin at 16. EVERYTHING, from draft to alcohol to firearms...

If you don't want to be an adult, you can try listening to your parents or other more experienced people you trust.

If you can drive a vehicle that weighs over a ton at speeds of 10-70 mph daily... you can be responsible for your decisions and actions.

If you're too immature to make such decisions, then don't act in a way that harms others to such a degree that your age truly matters.

repubconserv
06-13-2011, 9:23 PM
Im 19 and I'm saving up for a G19 that I will hopefully get before I'm 20 (intra family transfer)along with a list of about 3 other guns. If San berdoo county will issue a CCW to an under 21 person (what do you call a person between 18 and 21... I always almost say "minor"... but that aint right) I'll have one before 21

repubconserv
06-13-2011, 9:35 PM
some people on this thread have said that people under 21(over 18) are less mature.... yeah.... we can own cars, knives, poison, etc, that are equally or even more dangerous than hand guns... we can do it legally too. Even more ridiculous though is that if a person under 21 wanted to do something nefarious with a hand gun, they would probably acquire it illegally anyways.

That to say that, even though people under 21 CAN do all these things, the ones who would go about legally acquiring a hand gun, probably would also stay within the law with said gun... and any of the weapons mentioned above

Even further for the people who say 18-20 are not "mature" enough... I know plenty of people over 21 who are nowhere near mature enough to own a hand gun, but they do anyways. I know plenty of 18-20 people that are not mature enough to own long guns... the problem is, if you use the "maturity" argument, you get lots of people (yes even over 21) who slip through the cracks and are not mature enough to own guns. If you use blanket age requirements, you will also get lots of mature people who are now restricted from owning a certain type of gun, because they are not "old enough"

These restrictions are simply govt control. I say do away with these silly laws, and actually educate people on gun safety

dantodd
06-13-2011, 10:45 PM
You need to do some research. Most of your facts are either backward or sideways. There are at least 100,000 dead men and women who would be surprized to learn that you can't go into combat under 21.:rolleyes:

You mis-read her statement, she said the "should" limit combat to 21+. Also a poor policy in my opinion but she didn't say they "don't."

dantodd
06-13-2011, 10:47 PM
BTW, they don't take dummies into Nuc. school.

Nope, and there are fewer and fewer young folks today who are willing to, or want to take on those types of responsibilities at such an age. I know I wasn't ready to at that age.

iskra31
06-13-2011, 11:39 PM
Thank you! just turned 19 a few days ago and looking to get a pistol! Not all 18-20 y/o are irresponsible. I've already taken a rifle class and currently own 5 guns since I turned 18! Been shooting since I was 7. Also my grandpa was murdered, so gun safety was not taken lightly in my family. Don't generalize us young "boys". We can be responsible too :rolleyes:


some people on this thread have said that people under 21(over 18) are less mature.... yeah.... we can own cars, knives, poison, etc, that are equally or even more dangerous than hand guns... we can do it legally too. Even more ridiculous though is that if a person under 21 wanted to do something nefarious with a hand gun, they would probably acquire it illegally anyways.

That to say that, even though people under 21 CAN do all these things, the ones who would go about legally acquiring a hand gun, probably would also stay within the law with said gun... and any of the weapons mentioned above

Even further for the people who say 18-20 are not "mature" enough... I know plenty of people over 21 who are nowhere near mature enough to own a hand gun, but they do anyways. I know plenty of 18-20 people that are not mature enough to own long guns... the problem is, if you use the "maturity" argument, you get lots of people (yes even over 21) who slip through the cracks and are not mature enough to own guns. If you use blanket age requirements, you will also get lots of mature people who are now restricted from owning a certain type of gun, because they are not "old enough"

These restrictions are simply govt control. I say do away with these silly laws, and actually educate people on gun safety

Meplat
06-14-2011, 11:07 AM
You mis-read her statement, she said the "should" limit combat to 21+. Also a poor policy in my opinion but she didn't say they "don't."

I went back and reread her post. You are correct. My apologies to Keala.

bluebird
06-14-2011, 11:44 AM
Thanks to the early posts I realize under 21s can get CCWs, but for people like me whose parents don't currently live in the states, I don't see how I can possibly acquire a handgun at all. This is an even bigger problem.

repubconserv
06-14-2011, 3:40 PM
Thanks to the early posts I realize under 21s can get CCWs, but for people like me whose parents don't currently live in the states, I don't see how I can possibly acquire a handgun at all. This is an even bigger problem.

Move to a freer state and buy one FTF.

I believe federal law limits an under 21 person to not buying HG from FFL. It is ridiculous CA law that limits under 21 from buying HG FTF

Keala
06-14-2011, 10:20 PM
I went back and reread her post. You are correct. My apologies to Keala.

No problem melpat. :) I am not anti-american and I love my rights too! Just....discussing!

dfletcher
06-15-2011, 4:05 PM
When I turned 18 the Commonwealth of Massachusetts was nice enough to issue me an LTC AND lower the drinking age from 21 to 18 - I think they raised the drinking age back up about 3 years later, but it was darned considerate of them to allow me to carry and legally drink should I prefer to do so, fortunately I did not.

Looking back, I worked in a liquor store in a crappy part of town and was robbed, beat up and the store trashed once or twice while I was carrying but I managed to not misuse the gun. I guess I really can't come out against others doing now what I did about 35 years ago.