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View Full Version : Gunwalker:UPDATE #3 - 6/15/11 POST #1 - DOJ in Panic Mode over Congressional Hearings


JDoe
06-10-2011, 10:31 AM
UPDATE #3 - 6/15/2011 Video of the 6/15/2011 Hearing (in three segments/programs) can be viewed at http://www.c-spanvideo.org/videoLibrary/event.php?id=194669

UPDATE # - 6/15/2011 Hearing can be viewed now at http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/GunSm

UPDATE #1 - 6/13/11 - The House Oversight and Government Reform Committee held a hearing on the legality of Justice Department refusals to comply with congressional subpoenas regarding "Project Gunwalker"/"Operation Fast and Furious." See the full video of the 6/13/11 hearing from C-SPAN here (http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/DepartmentandC)

And as ZenDaddy noted in post #66 the next hearing is on Wednesday 6/15 10:00 am pacific

FOX: Justice Officials in 'Panic Mode' as Hearing Nears on Failed Anti-Gun Trafficking Program (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/06/09/justice-officials-in-panic-mode-as-new-testimony-is-expected-to-reveal-depth/)

I wonder if the paper shredder is working overtime this weekend? In any case I'd like to learn more about this adventure by the DOJ and whether it is related to inspiring more "common sense gun control" laws."

PatriotnMore
06-10-2011, 10:34 AM
FOX: Justice Officials in 'Panic Mode' as Hearing Nears on Failed Anti-Gun Trafficking Program (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/06/09/justice-officials-in-panic-mode-as-new-testimony-is-expected-to-reveal-depth/)

I wonder if the paper shredder is working overtime this weekend? In any case I'd like to learn more about this adventure by the DOJ and whether it is related to inspiring more "common sense gun control" laws."

I would place a wager, it is.

oldguy870
06-10-2011, 10:39 AM
Gunwalker should be an example of why you don't want to instantly make fun of conspiracy theorists.

Gunwalker was a conspiracy by definition. Not everything is a conspiracy. Conspiracies are rare. But, they do exist.

hkusp
06-10-2011, 10:47 AM
So, the flood of weapons going into Mexico from the US that was cited as a reason to ban said weapons by US politicians was actually and deliberately supported by ATF. A terrible idea, poorly executed, with horrifying consequences, and no possible avenue for a positive outcome. Wow.

wash
06-10-2011, 10:47 AM
It does illustrate that while conspiracies are real, they are usually pretty stupid.

safewaysecurity
06-10-2011, 10:48 AM
It's a conspiracy alright.

AJAX22
06-10-2011, 10:48 AM
Hmmmmm I may just have to swing by the BATFE and say hello this weekend at DC...

gonna go pack my camera with the long lens now.

mag360
06-10-2011, 10:51 AM
@ajax, I did just that. We snapped a few pics of me gesturing in front of their building haha

whobob
06-10-2011, 10:51 AM
Laws are only as good as the people... More failure ahead.

Uxi
06-10-2011, 11:09 AM
Shredding papers isn't enough. Some person somewhere sent that and another person received it. Someone is going to spill the beans on who told him or her to do this and the next person up will either take the fall or do the same thing. How high do you really think it goes? Holder?

choprzrul
06-10-2011, 11:22 AM
Shredding papers isn't enough. Some person somewhere sent that and another person received it. Someone is going to spill the beans on who told him or her to do this and the next person up will either take the fall or do the same thing. How high do you really think it goes? Holder?

You surely don't think that Holder operates in a vacuum without WH approval of his ops? They have a game plan, based upon ideology, that is being dictated from the top down. Puppet masters they are....

.

a1c
06-10-2011, 11:27 AM
Yup, I wouldn't be surprised if some heads are going to roll. Or some people are going to choose to "spend more time with their families."

ed bernay
06-10-2011, 11:43 AM
You surely don't think that Holder operates in a vacuum without WH approval of his ops? They have a game plan, based upon ideology, that is being dictated from the top down. Puppet masters they are....

.

Would Operation Gunrunner fall under what the President was talking about when he said this...“I just want you to know that we are working on it,” Brady recalled the president telling them. “We have to go through a few processes, but under the radar.”

dipsomaniac
06-10-2011, 11:57 AM
This radio show has been covering this every weekend. I believe his source that he interviews each week on gun walker was an insider. http://armedamericanradio.org/

dantodd
06-10-2011, 12:15 PM
Shredding papers isn't enough. Some person somewhere sent that and another person received it. Someone is going to spill the beans on who told him or her to do this and the next person up will either take the fall or do the same thing. How high do you really think it goes? Holder?

This is quite true and since "they" don't know what documents are out in the wild they have very little to choose from that can be shredded. Anything that is distributed to more than a very small circle of people has to be left alone. The last thing the DoJ wants is to shred something now and have another copy pop up somewhere during the investigation.

OleCuss
06-10-2011, 12:26 PM
I don't see the "conspiracy" in the usual sense.

This was an interesting and potentially useful investigation which was poorly constructed and handled with horrible incompetence.

Generally makes me like the BATFE agents better and to utterly abhor their top bosses.

Liberty1
06-10-2011, 12:48 PM
Does anyone doubt the cartels will get weapons no matter the source or cost? And no matter the interdiction efforts? It just further proves the futility of prohibition of drugs and GCA '34/'68' which ONLY control the law a biding.

yellowfin
06-10-2011, 12:50 PM
It would be so much simpler if they'd just learn to not be evil.

dantodd
06-10-2011, 12:52 PM
Does anyone doubt the cartels will get weapons no matter the source or cost? And no matter the interdiction efforts? It just further proves the futility of prohibition of drugs and GCA '34/'68' which ONLY control the law a biding.

While the general arming of the cartels supports your point this is like Vice setting up a crack house and selling drugs for a few years hoping that a "big dealer" will come by and give himself up. Ending prohibition is one thing but actually giving the supposed contraband to bad guys and then seeing it literally killing people is quite another.

Liberty1
06-10-2011, 12:53 PM
It would be so much simpler if they'd just learn to not be evil.

The Gov cartel or the drug cartels? :p

boxbro
06-10-2011, 1:12 PM
This was an interesting and potentially useful investigation which was poorly constructed and handled with horrible incompetence.

As opposed to great incompetence!!!
Just sayin..... :p

canyon runner
06-10-2011, 1:15 PM
I support eliminating the ATF

mofugly13
06-10-2011, 1:18 PM
I don't see the "conspiracy" in the usual sense.

This was an interesting and potentially useful investigation which was poorly constructed and handled with horrible incompetence.

Generally makes me like the BATFE agents better and to utterly abhor their top bosses.

The conspiracy is, and I believe it to be true, that this was all done to get the sheeple behind a push for more gun control. Obama: "..under the radar."

Smokeybehr
06-10-2011, 1:20 PM
The Gov cartel or the drug cartels? :p

At least the drug cartels are making their money the "honest" way, through the production and distribution of a profitable product. The Government are thieves, taking money from people through coercion or outright force.

AJAX22
06-10-2011, 1:24 PM
Strictly speaking, the ATF doesn't have the authority under the executive powers allotted to it to approve export of arms through commercial sales.

Only congress has that power.

At least I think that is how it is supposed to work

safewaysecurity
06-10-2011, 1:36 PM
Well they failed with gunner so now they resorted to saying al quaeda will exploit the gun show "loophole"

OleCuss
06-10-2011, 3:42 PM
hey another reason the ATF should disappear.

Would you mind editing that? Really don't need that particular kind of terminology here.

microwaveguy
06-10-2011, 6:56 PM
Yup, I wouldn't be surprised if some heads are going to roll. Or some people are going to choose to "spend more time with their families."


......or some people just have an "accident" and of course they will be painted to take the blame. :eek:

kcbrown
06-10-2011, 7:58 PM
Here's the bottom line: nobody should be above the law, and I mean nobody, and the law should apply to everyone equally -- no special, class-based exceptions. That means if you are law enforcement and you have to break the law in order to catch the bad guys then you don't do it. Our system of ordered liberty simply cannot work any other way.

Gunwalker is a striking example of what happens when that principle is violated by those who enforce the law.

It is far better to let a few bad guys go free than to turn our system of ordered liberty into a tiered system of privileges.

eqlzr
06-10-2011, 8:08 PM
Hmmm, I wonder if in the fairly near future we suddenly find that BATFE starts wanting to be much better friends with gun enthusiasts to try to get at least some people off their backs?

wash
06-10-2011, 8:52 PM
A conspiracy is essentially a lie. It is a secret operation designed to do something or make something happen that would not happen if people knew the truth.

This has everything. Illegal activities, a premeditated cover-up, attempting to fool people in to thinking that there was a problem that needed solving, people died and it all could have been prevented.

It's a classic.

As stupid as it was I've never heard of a conspiracy this calculated.

They just got a few major parts wrong, in Wag the Dog they used a fake war in a place on the other side of the world, not a real war being fought at and just south of our border and the idea was to deflect attention rather than focus attention around the issue.

madjack956
06-10-2011, 8:54 PM
would their illegal actions fall under the RICO statutes?

Dreaded Claymore
06-10-2011, 9:11 PM
would their illegal actions fall under the RICO statutes?

What are those?

jmlivingston
06-10-2011, 9:49 PM
RICO is the racketeering law designed to go after organized crime.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racketeer_Influenced_and_Corrupt_Organizations_Act

FastFinger
06-10-2011, 9:58 PM
I don't see the "conspiracy" in the usual sense.

This was an interesting and potentially useful investigation which was poorly constructed and handled with horrible incompetence.

Generally makes me like the BATFE agents better and to utterly abhor their top bosses.

If their sole intent was to investigate the flow of guns to Mexico, and use that info to stop that flow, at best it would have been yet another misguided bureaucratic FUBAR. But all indications are that it was far more sinister.

It was a craven attempt to manufacture propaganda. Create a scenario, a disaster, that is used to erode our civil rights. That is not speculation, that is fact.

I'm sure we all remember the news reports of "90% of Mexican murders cause by guns smuggled in from US." It almost worked, they almost got away with it.

This is shameful, despicable, betrayal engineered by the cynical Administration and their toadies in the government and media.

Blackhawk556
06-10-2011, 10:20 PM
is the brady bunch doing anything about this?? they should be calling for replacement of several officials from that office.

Blackhawk556
06-10-2011, 10:22 PM
If their sole intent was to investigate the flow of guns to Mexico, and use that info to stop that flow, at best it would have been yet another misguided bureaucratic FUBAR. But all indications are that it was far more sinister.

It was a craven attempt to manufacture propaganda. Create a scenario, a disaster, that is used to erode our civil rights. That is not speculation, that is fact.

I'm sure we all remember the news reports of "90% of Mexican murders cause by guns smuggled in from US." It almost worked, they almost got away with it.

This is shameful, despicable, betrayal engineered by the cynical Administration and their toadies in the government and media.


THIS!!! I'm sure glad someone had the b@ll$ to stand up and blow the whistle.

wash
06-10-2011, 10:29 PM
Oh, the Bradys are doing something:

They want people to call their politicians and ask for ATF registration and reporting of multiple long gun sales.

They think Gun Walker is great.

Anchors
06-10-2011, 10:49 PM
So the Bradys are cool with the ATF dumping thousands of illegal rifles into criminals hands if it helps them reach their "final solution"...

I wonder how their supportors (who are often emotionally destraught crime victims/family members) would feel about Brady supporting the ATF's effort to give criminals guns...

They are already low on support/donations, bad move Brady.

GOEX FFF
06-11-2011, 12:02 AM
is the brady bunch doing anything about this?? they should be calling for replacement of several officials from that office.

The bRaDy bunch have laid completely silent about Gunwalker. Helmke has NEVER "blogged" about it with his crayons, nor have they made ANY comments to the fact.
There was even a person who posted the story when it first broke on their Facebook. Not them or any of those anti-rights bRaDy sheeple commented on it and it fell fast fell off their wall.
So much for standing up for "Preventing Gun Violence"! :rolleyes: bRaDys are all about gun control/disarmament of THE PEOPLE.

Here's an open letter http://jpfo.org/rabbi/rabbi-brady-letter.htm written to Sarah bRadY by Rabbi Dovid Bendory of JPFO (JEWS FOR THE PRESERVATION OF FIREARMS OWNERSHIP) on ATF's Gun-walker.

He gives it to her (them) pretty good about what really their "organization" is and isn't all about. :D

kcbrown
06-11-2011, 12:17 AM
A conspiracy is essentially a lie. It is a secret operation designed to do something or make something happen that would not happen if people knew the truth.

This has everything. Illegal activities, a premeditated cover-up, attempting to fool people in to thinking that there was a problem that needed solving, people died and it all could have been prevented.

It's a classic.

As stupid as it was I've never heard of a conspiracy this calculated.


That alone should make you think hard about the probability of the existence of conspiracies in the general case. The reason is that a successful conspiracy is one which either goes undetected entirely, is or has become impossible to stop (i.e., it doesn't matter who knows about it), or which is ignored as being too improbable.


Obviously, standards of evidence, Occam's Razor, etc., all come into play when evaluating these things. But when those have the conspiracy theory as being the best available explanation (i.e., at a minimum, it fits the evidence the best), its time to sit up and take notice. Mere argument from incredulity does not suffice to rebut the theory at that point, but that is precisely what most people are inclined to do even then.

sfbadger
06-11-2011, 12:48 AM
I loved the Rabbi's letter to Sarah. I hope the old broad reads it!

rrr70
06-11-2011, 6:45 AM
Would you mind editing that? Really don't need that particular kind of terminology here.

Why would he do it?

Wernher von Browning
06-11-2011, 6:57 AM
FOX: Justice Officials in 'Panic Mode' as Hearing Nears on Failed Anti-Gun Trafficking Program (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/06/09/justice-officials-in-panic-mode-as-new-testimony-is-expected-to-reveal-depth/)

I wonder if the paper shredder is working overtime this weekend?


I would like to see a press release from Ronnie Barrett to the effect that he refuses to work on DOJ's paper shredders... :)

TRICKSTER
06-11-2011, 7:17 AM
Here's an idea. How about everyone write a letter to the editor of their local paper pointing out hypocrisy of the Brady Campaign's silence over this issue.
Bring more attention to Gunwalker and the Brady hypocrisy at the same time.

jl123
06-11-2011, 12:08 PM
At least the drug cartels are making their money the "honest" way, through the production and distribution of a profitable product. The Government are thieves, taking money from people through coercion or outright force.

The cartels are also killing far fewer people than government does.

jl123
06-11-2011, 12:11 PM
Here's the bottom line: nobody should be above the law, and I mean nobody, and the law should apply to everyone equally -- no special, class-based exceptions. That means if you are law enforcement and you have to break the law in order to catch the bad guys then you don't do it. Our system of ordered liberty simply cannot work any other way.

Gunwalker is a striking example of what happens when that principle is violated by those who enforce the law.

It is far better to let a few bad guys go free than to turn our system of ordered liberty into a tiered system of privileges.

Ordered liberty? Our gov has more of our population in prison than any other country in the world. How is that any kind of liberty?

kcbrown
06-11-2011, 12:16 PM
Ordered liberty? Our gov has more of our population in prison than any other country in the world. How is that any kind of liberty?

Didn't say the system was in effect now. But it's what was intended, and what we must return to.

jl123
06-11-2011, 12:39 PM
Didn't say the system was in effect now. But it's what was intended, and what we must return to.

Government's natural course is to get bigger. Replacing what we have with a smaller gov is futile.

Americans as a group have lost their thirst for freedom and have replaced it with blind patriotism and love for icons like Obama or Bush.

tankarian
06-11-2011, 1:02 PM
Would Operation Gunrunner fall under what the President was talking about when he said this...“I just want you to know that we are working on it,” Brady recalled the president telling them. “We have to go through a few processes, but under the radar.”

Nah, everyone knows Obama is not anti-gun. Just ask the usual suspects of this forum.;)

Commiefornia
06-11-2011, 1:05 PM
All this while Atty. Gen. Eric Holder and other top level Congressional Democrats wait for the findings of Inspector General's investigation...like she is ever going to investigate Holder, much less Obama, on this.

oldguy870
06-11-2011, 1:05 PM
Americans as a group have lost their thirst for freedom and have replaced it with blind patriotism and love for icons like Obama or Bush.

This is true. But, it is slowly changing.

MP301
06-11-2011, 1:57 PM
The bRaDy bunch have laid completely silent about Gunwalker. Helmke has NEVER "blogged" about it with his crayons, nor have they made ANY comments to the fact.
There was even a person who posted the story when it first broke on their Facebook. Not them or any of those anti-rights bRaDy sheeple commented on it and it fell fast fell off their wall.
So much for standing up for "Preventing Gun Violence"! :rolleyes: bRaDys are all about gun control/disarmament of THE PEOPLE.

Here's an open letter http://jpfo.org/rabbi/rabbi-brady-letter.htm written to Sarah bRadY by Rabbi Dovid Bendory of JPFO (JEWS FOR THE PRESERVATION OF FIREARMS OWNERSHIP) on ATF's Gun-walker.

He gives it to her (them) pretty good about what really their "organization" is and isn't all about. :D

Points for the Rabbi. That was a very well written and accurate letter.

kcbrown
06-11-2011, 1:58 PM
Government's natural course is to get bigger. Replacing what we have with a smaller gov is futile.

Americans as a group have lost their thirst for freedom and have replaced it with blind patriotism and love for icons like Obama or Bush.

That may be true, but it will not stop me from doing what little I can to restore our liberty. I simply will not lay down and give up on it.

Liberty must be fought for no matter the odds of winning. There are some things you simply do not give up on, no matter what. Liberty is one of them.

Scott Connors
06-11-2011, 2:32 PM
Nah, everyone knows Obama is not anti-gun. Just ask the usual suspects of this forum.;)

Obama is not anti-gun. His goal is eliminating liberty as it has been traditionally understood in this country. Restricting or eliminating civilian access to weapons is just a mile post to his real goal.

oldguy870
06-11-2011, 3:53 PM
Kcbrown, what you wrote is pure truth. Resistance is victory.

I train in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. I am 50 years old. When I fight the mega strong 20 something year old kids, sometimes I win. Sometimes I lose. Even when I lose, at the end of the day, I still respect myself because I fought hard. I didn't give it to them. They had to take it.

Pred@tor
06-11-2011, 10:47 PM
www.atfabuse.com this is just another thing gone wrong by this rouge agency.

Laser Sailor
06-12-2011, 2:05 PM
Shredding papers isn't enough. Some person somewhere sent that and another person received it. Someone is going to spill the beans on who told him or her to do this and the next person up will either take the fall or do the same thing. How high do you really think it goes? Holder?


Where's wikileaks when you need them?

jl123
06-12-2011, 2:14 PM
Where's wikileaks when you need them?

I think WikiLeaks had something to do with breaking the initial story.

Paul S
06-12-2011, 2:33 PM
The bRaDy bunch.....

Here's an open letter http://jpfo.org/rabbi/rabbi-brady-letter.htm written to Sarah bRadY by Rabbi Dovid Bendory of JPFO (JEWS FOR THE PRESERVATION OF FIREARMS OWNERSHIP) on ATF's Gun-walker......


Yes indeed the Rabbi hit the nail on the head. But actually engaging the Brady bunch in meaningful dialogue has so afar been an impossibility.
What I fear is that any lie told long enough and loud enough is soon believed as truth. :43:

sfbadger
06-12-2011, 2:39 PM
... any lie told long enough and loud enough is soon believed as truth. :43:

I'm sure that is what the Brady camp is counting on!

Cali-Shooter
06-12-2011, 2:59 PM
Sweet Mother of Pearl.

BHO, your Administration, and the Fed,
you've made your bed, now lie in it.

2Bear
06-12-2011, 4:01 PM
Government's natural course is to get bigger. Replacing what we have with a smaller gov is futile.

Americans as a group have lost their thirst for freedom and have replaced it with blind patriotism and love for icons like Obama or Bush.

A strategic campaign disseminating fear, uncertainty and doubt ensures a frightened flock of sheeple; one willing to be herded and penned in return for a false sense of security.

GOEX FFF
06-12-2011, 5:07 PM
Tomorrow starts the big day. I wonder how many paper shredders ATF have burned out over the weekend.
I wish these proceedings would be televised on such as CSPAN, I wouldnt move from the TV all day.

mblat
06-13-2011, 8:29 AM
Gunwalker should be an example of why you don't want to instantly make fun of conspiracy theorists.

Gunwalker was a conspiracy by definition. Not everything is a conspiracy. Conspiracies are rare. But, they do exist.

It is also an example of how all information sooner or later will become public knowledge....

ZenDaddy
06-13-2011, 10:08 AM
Watch live here:

http://www.c-span.org/Live-Video/C-SPAN3/

Next hearing Wednesday 6/15 10:00 am pacific


Watch tape of this mornings hearing here:

http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/DepartmentandC



transcript incuded

huck
06-13-2011, 3:21 PM
Ironic that the US Attorney General, head of the Department of Justice, is ignoring a subpoena. Only democrats would think this is okay.

GOEX FFF
06-13-2011, 3:26 PM
Ironic that the US Attorney General, head of the Department of Justice, is ignoring a subpoena. Only democrats would think this is okay.

Yep, if they were "truly" innocent, they would be bat s*** crazy and up in arms about it to defend themselves. But they're not. They're stone-walling, trying to buy more time and looking at ways to cover their butts. But it's only going to get worse the longer they drag it out and it becomes more and more apparent they're trying to hide all that they can.

Thanks Zendaddy for the links... it seems clear now that the panel of legal experts have uniformly stated that congress does have the authority to investigate and said that DOJ, (ATF and Holder) must and should present all the documents, and if they don't, then they must have jusification as to why not. The noose has been made, now it's only going to get tighter.

http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-seattle/breaking-1st-gunrunner-hearing-goes-according-to-plan

Quser.619
06-13-2011, 3:54 PM
IF found in Contempt of Congress, it will never match my contempt of this program.

The beautiful thing is that both Obama & Holder have claimed not authorizing this program, so they cannot now use the Executive Privilege cop-out to avoid the Congressional Subpoena's.

There isn't enough popcorn to be had for the upcoming spectacle.

Who knows the networks may actually be forced to cover this, naw, who am I kidding

Mesa Tactical
06-13-2011, 4:03 PM
Ironic that the US Attorney General, head of the Department of Justice, is ignoring a subpoena. Only democrats would think this is okay.

Yeah, Democrats like John Ashcroft, Dick Cheney, etc.

CalBear
06-13-2011, 4:09 PM
IF found in Contempt of Congress, it will never match my contempt of this program.

The beautiful thing is that both Obama & Holder have claimed not authorizing this program, so they cannot now use the Executive Privilege cop-out to avoid the Congressional Subpoena's.

There isn't enough popcorn to be had for the upcoming spectacle.

Who knows the networks may actually be forced to cover this, naw, who am I kidding
Amazing isn't it. Huge scandal boiling over, and not a peep from most media outlets.

sfbadger
06-13-2011, 4:14 PM
Yeah, Democrats like John Ashcroft, Dick Cheney, etc.

No kidding. Some folks have a very selective memory.

ZenDaddy
06-13-2011, 4:15 PM
It is going to be very entertaining at the least and an epic pivot point in this administrations chapter at the most.

Issa seems absolutely giddy at the prospect of laying out the truth. We should start a pool on where the buck stops and who's heads roll.

My money is on strong evidence pointing at Clinton (weasels out clean) with Holder taking the rap and resigning/prosecuted and Obama coming out smelling like a rose. There is no way a program like this could genesis lower than Holder, imho.

huck
06-13-2011, 4:20 PM
CBS just put up the story.
Here. (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20070896-10391695.html)

DisgruntledReaper
06-13-2011, 4:20 PM
Can someone rent a jumbo tron and we go watch it all and tailgate bbq while open carrying in a park? that would be epic....better yet have 1 million gun owners show up on the National Lawn or whatever the large grass place is in DC-I am on alletrgy meds and brain foo is cloudy- and watch it all while bbq-ing and tail gate hanging out......

Holder and that new guy appointed to the BATF are more douches out of the same pack as the brady's, OBL and his cronies..etc....

huck
06-13-2011, 4:41 PM
Yeah, Democrats like John Ashcroft, Dick Cheney, etc.

Witch Hunts. All of them.

:devil2:

Coded-Dude
06-15-2011, 9:30 AM
http://www.c-span.org/Live-Video/C-SPAN3/

choprzrul
06-15-2011, 9:39 AM
http://www.c-span.org/Live-Video/C-SPAN3/

Dudes, you gotta tune in and watch this! They've stolen Kes's big 'ol hammer and are whacking away with it!

Good stuff.

.

meaty-btz
06-15-2011, 9:47 AM
and recess

Stonewalker
06-15-2011, 9:48 AM
So they are recessing... I just listened in as they started the recess. Has anybody been watching since it began?

ETA: nevermind, I'm catching up on the other thread
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=444977

Coded-Dude
06-15-2011, 9:58 AM
hearing back to order.

choprzrul
06-15-2011, 10:06 AM
ISSA is ripping the doj flunky a new one!

.

BusBoy
06-15-2011, 10:07 AM
lol this is getting good!!

Coded-Dude
06-15-2011, 10:11 AM
WOW! Weich got OWNED!

aklover_91
06-15-2011, 10:12 AM
Is it just me, or does Weich look stoned?

Patrick-2
06-15-2011, 10:15 AM
Cummings is apologizing for Issa's anger. He is talking about the "level of integrity required of this committee."

Issa breaks in and makes a point that no apology is required. Issa is clear that he is not done.

I think I recall Weich is the patsy they sent because he is not part of the operation. He was selected specifically because he knows nothing, and therefore cannot share anything of note.

meaty-btz
06-15-2011, 10:18 AM
wow, this is like watching a good roasting.

G60
06-15-2011, 10:18 AM
WOW! Weich got OWNED!

yup
http://desmond.yfrog.com/Himg740/scaled.php?tn=0&server=740&filename=k7zb.jpg&xsize=640&ysize=640:43:

"What is this, a paper representation of an iPad?"

tgriffin
06-15-2011, 10:26 AM
listening via cspan mobile. wow stonewall after stonewall. Bravo Issa for taking them to task.

choprzrul
06-15-2011, 10:34 AM
That fellow from Utah is on fire!

.

BusBoy
06-15-2011, 10:37 AM
"I cant define walking" WTF Really Weich?? Come on now....!! lol

stitchnicklas
06-15-2011, 10:54 AM
now farenthold is ripping welch

wash
06-15-2011, 10:56 AM
Someone mentioned a jumbo-tron, this would have been great if put up in Time Square Manhattan.

It would piss off Bloomberg and a lot of people would hear the truth about what our government is trying to do behind our backs. It probably would force the media to pick up the story.

stitchnicklas
06-15-2011, 10:56 AM
issa just called welch out for signing docs without knowing them

Neve
06-15-2011, 10:57 AM
Thanks for the link!

Coded-Dude
06-15-2011, 11:00 AM
"We're on track....we've produce documents." lol.
all of which will be published because there is nothing on them.

yup
http://desmond.yfrog.com/Himg740/scaled.php?tn=0&server=740&filename=k7zb.jpg&xsize=640&ysize=640:43:

stitchnicklas
06-15-2011, 11:04 AM
issa calls out obama's democrat congress from the prior 2 years for suppressing gop voice

cll
06-15-2011, 11:06 AM
Im surprised that F*X News is covering the Committee hearing story, having an atf agent from the hearing coming in for an interview.

glock_this
06-15-2011, 11:06 AM
for those of us kind of unaware of the real gist of the issue, this article
(http://www.redstate.com/erick/2011/03/17/will-operation-gun-walker-bring-down-eric-holder-or-barack-obama/)captures it pretty succinctly so you can kind of quickly get up to speed about what this is all about

Patrick-2
06-15-2011, 11:19 AM
The hearing is over now. Cummings tried to set up a way to get documents to the committee. He wasn't helping the committee, per se. He was trying to avoid what Issa is obviously pursuing: an independent prosecutor.

The stonewalling is a key element of these hearings for a reason. If DoJ is stonewalling Congress and not meeting its obligations, a special prosecutor can be appointed with the power to force the investigation using a sharp stick with contempt charges that hurt.

Issa asked one of the most telling questions today that is going to come back to haunt DoJ later: "Will DoJ provide a list of names that helped write, or who reviewed, the obvious false statement you made on May 2nd?"

That statement was that ATF did everything it could to stop weapons from getting into Mexico and never knowingly allowed their transfer into Mexico. We now know that the Director of ATF was sitting in his office in DC watching the straw sales and that multiple memos to DoJ talked openly about those guns going to Mexico.

Weich's answer: "I am not ready to commit to that."

That statement is going to make a special prosecutor all the more likely. I don't know the exact sequence required to do it, but I think Congress can force it. If Holder is implicated in any way, it might even be expected.

GOEX FFF
06-15-2011, 11:24 AM
Here is the Archive vid for those who may have missed it - 4 hours 4 minutes, it was intense!

http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/GunSm

Caladain
06-15-2011, 11:28 AM
Here is the Archive vid for those who may have missed it - 4 hours 4 minutes, it was intense!

http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/GunSm

I was going to watch the hockey game, but i think this shall be my entertainment tonight :43:

notme92069
06-15-2011, 11:38 AM
Shredding papers isn't enough. Some person somewhere sent that and another person received it. Someone is going to spill the beans on who told him or her to do this and the next person up will either take the fall or do the same thing. How high do you really think it goes? Holder?

Not only that, if the communication was electronic, there is a copy somewhere, on some server. Even if it is a secure government server, it only takes 1 patriot with access to expose this.

Wernher von Browning
06-15-2011, 11:41 AM
Assistant Attorney General Ronald Weich -- anybody speak German?

Know what "weich" means?
It's a good complement to "weener."

http://dict.leo.org/ende?lp=ende&lang=de&searchLoc=0&cmpType=relaxed&sectHdr=on&spellToler=&search=weich

Geez, who comes up with these names? Central Casting?

Wernher von Browning
06-15-2011, 11:42 AM
I was going to watch the hockey game, but i think this shall be my entertainment tonight :43:

Only if they have a congressional hearing and a fistfight breaks out.

GOEX FFF
06-15-2011, 11:44 AM
FINALLY!!! How big this is CNN had no choice but to notice the hearing today. I was just about to call them and ask them as to why they have ignored this.. Albeit they dropped it from their homepage and put it into a link...but alas.. here it is.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/06/15/us.fast.and.furious/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

Wernher von Browning
06-15-2011, 11:50 AM
The gunwalker timeline -- I don't know if this has been included in the timeline, and I saw it mentioned on Calguns earlier today, but this is interesting in the light of one of the threads in the hearing, where Weich was asked about who knew what, when.

http://thehill.com/homenews/news/166611-agents-were-worried-atf-program-connected-with-loughner-gun

Re the gun used by Loughner in the Phoenix shooting rampage that injured Rep. Giffords came up --

When news of Giffords shooting broke in January, Peter Forcelli, the group supervisor with ATF’s Phoenix field division, said that agents were anxious that the gun allegedly used by Jared Loughner may have been obtained under the guidance of the “Fast and Furious” operation.

“I received a phone call from my public information officer, who is a friend of mine, who said that there was concern from the chain of command that the gun was hopefully not a ‘Fast and Furious’ gun,” Forcelli said.

That means higher-ups in this "chain of command" knew as early as January that there might be a problem. The question now is, how long is that chain?

:popcorn:

Paul S
06-15-2011, 11:51 AM
The hearing is over now. Cummings tried to set up a way to get documents to the committee. He wasn't helping the committee, per se. He was trying to avoid what Issa is obviously pursuing: an independent prosecutor. .........................

Weich's answer: "I am not ready to commit to that."

That statement is going to make a special prosecutor all the more likely. I don't know the exact sequence required to do it, but I think Congress can force it. If Holder is implicated in any way, it might even be expected.


Thanks for that analysis. This is an issue on which I was unclear.

winxp_man
06-15-2011, 11:53 AM
I wonder if some of the idiots know what weapons are ? Cummings " multiple aka's varients" ahahahahahaha what the hell is a aka ? Is it the new laser AK2011 ?

tgriffin
06-15-2011, 12:02 PM
Assistant Attorney General Ronald Weich -- anybody speak German?

Know what "weich" means?
It's a good complement to "weener."

http://dict.leo.org/ende?lp=ende&lang=de&searchLoc=0&cmpType=relaxed&sectHdr=on&spellToler=&search=weich

Geez, who comes up with these names? Central Casting?

haha there was some serious weich klopfen going on in that hearing

wash
06-15-2011, 12:56 PM
I am kind of a souvenir hound.

If I lived in AZ, I would try to get the Zetas or whoever bought it to sell me the AK with the lojack in the stock.

All they would have to do is bring it back to the U.S. and then a face to face transfer could happen (legally).

stitchnicklas
06-15-2011, 1:52 PM
a side note on rep.Cummings' nephew, Christopher Cummings, son of his brother James, was shot to death at his off-campus house near Old Dominion University in June 2011

this is the tragedy he was referring to during the proceedings and yet he was there as anon-anti-voice i think...

Noxx
06-15-2011, 2:13 PM
Issa asked one of the most telling questions today that is going to come back to haunt DoJ later: "Will DoJ provide a list of names that helped write, or who reviewed, the obvious false statement you made on May 2nd?"

That statement was that ATF did everything it could to stop weapons from getting into Mexico and never knowingly allowed their transfer into Mexico. We now know that the Director of ATF was sitting in his office in DC watching the straw sales and that multiple memos to DoJ talked openly about those guns going to Mexico.


This.


Edit- Should have had him arrested on the spot, actually. Send a little message.
They baldly lied, everyone knows it, there's no denying it. If someone doesn't hit the stripey hole over this, there isn't an ounce of accountability left in our servants and it's time to replace them.

Wernher von Browning
06-15-2011, 2:17 PM
I am kind of a souvenir hound.

If I lived in AZ, I would try to get the Zetas or whoever bought it to sell me the AK with the lojack in the stock.

All they would have to do is bring it back to the U.S. and then a face to face transfer could happen (legally).


Aha!!! Maybe that's been their Evil Plan (TM) all along! They see the drug trade eventually being shut down, so they're preparing -- by creating their very own line of collectibles!

Can't you see it now? The Francisco Mint offering display cases full of silver-plated "Guns of the Drug Cartels", available in easy monthly installments!

Wernher von Browning
06-15-2011, 2:20 PM
a side note on rep.Cummings' nephew, Christopher Cummings, son of his brother James, was shot to death at his off-campus house near Old Dominion University in June 2011

this is the tragedy he was referring to during the proceedings and yet he was there as anon-anti-voice i think...


Just a couple of days ago, by the looks of it.
http://articles.cnn.com/2011-06-13/justice/virginia.congressman.nephew_1_virginia-shooting-nephew-congressman?_s=PM:CRIME

meaty-btz
06-15-2011, 2:36 PM
Very tragic, an unarmed man chased down an armed one. That boy should have had a CCW.

Maestro Pistolero
06-15-2011, 2:36 PM
Just a couple of days ago, by the looks of it.
http://articles.cnn.com/2011-06-13/justice/virginia.congressman.nephew_1_virginia-shooting-nephew-congressman?_s=PM:CRIME

Campus carry could have saved his life. He even had known threats of retaliation.

jonyg
06-15-2011, 3:33 PM
I can't seem to get the second video to play off cspan. The play button just doesn't appear like it does in the first one

JDoe
06-15-2011, 3:39 PM
I can't seem to get the second video to play off cspan. The play button just doesn't appear like it does in the first one

Try this link http://www.c-spanvideo.org/videoLibrary/event.php?id=194669 and just click on the title to each segment.

Even simpler

Part one: Federal Gun Smuggling Sting Operation, Senator Grassley (http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/GunSm)

Part two: Federal Gun Smuggling Sting Operation, Panel 2 (http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/Sting)

Part three: Federal Gun Smuggling Sting Operation, Ronald Welch Testimony (http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/GunSmu)

jonyg
06-15-2011, 3:40 PM
Try this link http://www.c-spanvideo.org/videoLibrary/event.php?id=194669 and just click on the title to each segment.

Yea =/
segment 2 and 3 just don't start. Hahah digging through source code...

Edit. Found it
www.c-spanvideo.org/videoLibrary/assets/swf/CSPANPlayer.swf?pid=300051-2
Now time to watch the next 3 hours of it

eaglemike
06-15-2011, 4:20 PM
Somehow this reminds me of the lost tapes and other evidence after Waco. It's getting harder all the time for me to have ANY trust in these "public servants."

Of course if they send a guy over that doesn't know anything, he's not lying when he says "I just don't know and I can't answer that."

kcbrown
06-15-2011, 6:13 PM
I said it before (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=6598598&postcount=82) and I'll say it again, because I believe this needs to be repeated:

The bottom line is that in this operation, the ATF was knowingly aiding and abetting known criminals. There is only one crime that properly fits that description: treason.

And treason is punishable by the death penalty, which is something I believe those who approved this operation should be subject to, and something the agency itself should be subject to (meaning: the ATF needs to be entirely and permanently shut down as a result of this). Sorry, but I don't believe there's any other proper way to deal with this.

bigcalidave
06-15-2011, 6:16 PM
Obviously we can't just do without the ATF, that puts a strain on other law enforcement for the hundreds of thousands of businesses that they license. It has to exist. Hopefully this causes a full redo of their regulations, and some serious oversight of everything they do.

kcbrown
06-15-2011, 6:38 PM
Obviously we can't just do without the ATF, that puts a strain on other law enforcement for the hundreds of thousands of businesses that they license. It has to exist. Hopefully this causes a full redo of their regulations, and some serious oversight of everything they do.

I disagree. The ATF as we know it today gained its current form with the GCA. Prior to that it had been bounced around as an enforcement arm of various government agencies (including, as it happens, the predecessor of the IRS). It has had a role in enforcing federal firearms laws, but its "necessity" is a direct reflection of the federal firearms laws that are on the books.

And the vast majority of those laws are, frankly, unnecessary. We got along quite well without the ATF or its equivalents back in the 1800s.


What people fail to realize is that most laws really aren't necessary -- they're there because people in government crave power.



That said, if we must retain the function of the ATF then we should do so by disbanding the ATF entirely and starting from scratch. The people who have managed the ATF with so much malfeasance must never be allowed anywhere near such a role ever again.

Coded-Dude
06-15-2011, 6:45 PM
I disagree. The ATF as we know it today gained its current form with the GCA. Prior to that it had been bounced around as an enforcement arm of various government agencies (including, as it happens, the predecessor of the IRS). It has had a role in enforcing federal firearms laws, but its "necessity" is a direct reflection of the federal firearms laws that are on the books.

And the vast majority of those laws are, frankly, unnecessary. We got along quite well without the ATF or its equivalents back in the 1800s.


What people fail to realize is that most laws really aren't necessary -- they're there because people in government crave power.



That said, if we must retain the function of the ATF then we should do so by disbanding the ATF entirely and starting from scratch. The people who have managed the ATF with so much malfeasance must never be allowed anywhere near such a role ever again.


i agree wholeheartedly with your statement about treason and wish the ATF were gone as well, but that last statement should be the least of what comes from all of this B.S.

yakmon
06-15-2011, 7:22 PM
There isn't a one solution fixes all fix to the ATF. Starting from scratch is ok with me. In my world is start with the first 2 letters in the acronym. Alcohol and tobacco are not protected as a fundamental civil right and as such should be separate from guns. So where do we go from there? Separate the a&t side and let them get on with business as usual. So now were left with firearms and explosives.

Both of those have a more potential for life threatening crime. I watched some of today's testimony on fast and furious. The 3 guys that testified are the guys to keep on the F side. ****can those others. IMO there's not much reason for an individual to buy more than 3 of the same exact firearm (unless say a rancher or some such wants common arms for all his hands or gifts to same or similar)

Coded-Dude
06-15-2011, 7:26 PM
There isn't a one solution fixes all fix to the ATF. Starting from scratch is ok with me. In my world is start with the first 2 letters in the acronym. Alcohol and tobacco are not protected as a fundamental civil right and as such should be separate from guns. So where do we go from there? Separate the a&t side and let them get on with business as usual. So now were left with firearms and explosives.

Both of those have a more potential for life threatening crime. I watched some of today's testimony on fast and furious. The 3 guys that testified are the guys to keep on the F side. ****can those others. IMO there's not much reason for an individual to buy more than 3 of the same exact firearm (unless say a rancher or some such wants common arms for all his hands or gifts to same or similar)

i like what you said up until the bold part.

yakmon
06-15-2011, 7:26 PM
Keep or hire enough for ligit crime investigations and for an Annual audit of 4437 type paperwork.

yakmon
06-15-2011, 7:42 PM
I don't see the need, but that might be my ignorance. Please throw out a secenario where an individual needs more than 3 of the exact same gun other than a stbecause of

Phone post I'll fix it later

Because they can

RRangel
06-15-2011, 7:44 PM
I don't see the need, but that might be my ignorance. Please throw out a secenario where an individual needs more than 3 of the exact same gun other than a stbecause of

Phone post I'll fix it later

Because they can

Because they're American citizens living in the United States and not somewhere behind an Iron Curtain.

curtisfong
06-15-2011, 7:44 PM
I don't see the need, but that might be my ignorance. Please throw out a secenario where an individual needs more than 3 of the exact same gun

1) None of your damn business.
2) None of your damn business.
3) Am I allowed to have enough spare parts to build more than 3?

Wernher von Browning
06-15-2011, 7:51 PM
I don't see the need, but that might be my ignorance. Please throw out a secenario where an individual needs more than 3 of the exact same gun other than a stbecause of

Phone post I'll fix it later

Because they can


Define "exact same."

Some people collect certain guns like postage stamps -- for example, their album has every year of Springfield Springfield, every Rock Island Springfield, every Remington Springfield but is still missing a 1942 Smith-Corona Springfield.

It's not for you to decide how many guns are enough for somebody else.

wash
06-15-2011, 7:52 PM
They can leave tech branch intact, we can fix it's problems (which are minor) later. The investigative branch should be large enough to do background checks and FFL audits but no sting operations. The management should be completely replaced and there has to be a process of vetting the replacements to ensure we don't replace our old problem with a new one.

yakmon
06-15-2011, 7:54 PM
Sorry about the last post I got 3 calls while I was thumbing it out. One of the reasons of me thinking a person not needing 3 of the exact same ( meaning not a glocks in fde black and of green, but 3 black glocks) stlill IMO it's your right two buy them. But it's still suspicious . Maybes 3 is an arbritrarally low number, make it 10 or 20.

yakmon
06-15-2011, 7:57 PM
That wasnt as clear as I wanted. 3 ( or 10 or 20) black glock 19s ad an example.

curtisfong
06-15-2011, 7:59 PM
You realize that for rifles, the serialized part is the firearm?

Am I allowed to have more than 3 of the same kind of that part?

For example, AR pattern lowers?

This whole line of reasoning is ridiculous.

yakmon
06-15-2011, 8:04 PM
I also know the difference between need and want. IMO every house needs means to defend said house, up to the house to decide how. Here's a scenario 5 adults live in one house, all 5 decide they need black 5" .45 xd's. Should one guy go buy 5 xd's and hand them out to his roomies or should they all go buy they're own guns?

curtisfong
06-15-2011, 8:10 PM
Why did you dodge the question?

How many identical AR lowers am I allowed to buy?

yakmon
06-15-2011, 8:12 PM
Wish the mobile ver. Let me quote. I'm speaking for me if you want 50 diff ar-15 lowers I'm ok with that. Unless you wanna buy 50 lowers as a straw. I know that midwaywill take your order for 50 uppers np.

curtisfong
06-15-2011, 8:15 PM
if you want 50 diff ar-15 lowers I'm ok with that.


Different how? Be specific.

Unless you wanna buy 50 lowers as a straw.

What do you mean straw? Be specific.

Cowboy T
06-15-2011, 8:15 PM
Then legally prevent people from owning more than 3 cars of the same type. Nobody "needs" that.

Dude, you're just not getting it. The Constitution isn't a description of what the Government allows us to do. Rather, it's a description of the specific powers that We, The People have delegated to our Government, and nothing more. The default here is to permit unless it infringes on the rights of someone else. Unlike many other parts of the world (e. g. Red China, Saudi Arabia, certain European countries, etc.), the whole point is liberty. So, yes, "because we can" is a perfectly valid reason, here in the United States, because liberty is the very basis and premise of our country.

bigcalidave
06-15-2011, 8:17 PM
I'm still watching this video, this is some DAMNING testimony by the atf agents. Wow. There will hopefully be some serious changes coming down the pipeline.

yakmon
06-15-2011, 8:21 PM
Your'e also allowed to buy as meny serialized lowers as you want, ATF might get your scent. Maybe I should sober up before I continue with this thread.

curtisfong
06-15-2011, 8:23 PM
You just said I'm not allowed to buy more than 3 of the same firearm.

But if i buy 4 identical lowers, how do you know if i'm going to build them into identical firearms unless you *also* track which parts I buy?


Maybe I should sober up before I continue with this thread


You should probably sober up before posting ANYTHING on the internet. And not just in this thread.

kcbrown
06-15-2011, 8:30 PM
So now were left with firearms and explosives.

Both of those have a more potential for life threatening crime. I watched some of today's testimony on fast and furious. The 3 guys that testified are the guys to keep on the F side. ****can those others. IMO there's not much reason for an individual to buy more than 3 of the same exact firearm (unless say a rancher or some such wants common arms for all his hands or gifts to same or similar)

With freedom comes risk. Repeat this until you understand it.

The bottom line here is that, in the general case, the only things that should be criminalized are actions which bring harm to others or which otherwise violate the rights of others, or actions which aid someone else in accomplishing that (and which are taken knowing the consequences -- inadvertently helping someone commit a crime doesn't count). Victimless crimes shouldn't even exist.

This may sound callous, but the problem that I have with the ATF's handling of this isn't that they let people buy lots of guns, but that they selectively enforced the law. In this case, that they failed to enforce the law for what appear to be political purposes, while steadfastly enforcing it against us normal citizens. This is what happens when you give a government agency that kind of power, and the only solution to that problem is to take that power away entirely.


Freedom is risky. With the freedom to buy whatever firearm you want, whenever you want, and wherever you want comes the risk that someone you don't like will do the same. Tough sh*t. Either you accept the risk like a man or you go running off to hide behind mommy government.

What's it going to be?

kcbrown
06-15-2011, 8:33 PM
Then legally prevent people from owning more than 3 cars of the same type. Nobody "needs" that.

Dude, you're just not getting it. The Constitution isn't a description of what the Government allows us to do. Rather, it's a description of the specific powers that We, The People have delegated to our Government, and nothing more. The default here is to permit unless it infringes on the rights of someone else. Unlike many other parts of the world (e. g. Red China, Saudi Arabia, certain European countries, etc.), the whole point is liberty. So, yes, "because we can" is a perfectly valid reason, here in the United States, because liberty is the very basis and premise of our country.

Quoted for truth. Well done sir!

People, repeat the above until it sinks in, but especially: "because we can" is a perfectly valid reason, here in the United States, because liberty is the very basis and premise of our country.

yakmon
06-15-2011, 8:33 PM
I'm betting I'll be eating some crow Tomarrow when Im sober and in front of a proper keyboard but I'll throw ou some responses here

50 diff lowers.... Call them stripped. It up to the buyer after that the only thing diff from stripped and done is time parts and will.


We all know what a straw is, dude.

curtisfong
06-15-2011, 8:47 PM
It up to the buyer after that the only thing diff from stripped and done is time parts and will

So how will you implement this magical "no more than 3 firearms that are identical" rule?

NorCal MedTac
06-15-2011, 8:56 PM
The management should be completely replaced and there has to be a process of vetting the replacements to ensure we don't replace our old problem with a new one.

I'm sure Obama and Pelosi will ensure the replacements are cool.

Meplat
06-15-2011, 9:08 PM
I don't see the need, but that might be my ignorance. Please throw out a secenario where an individual needs more than 3 of the exact same gun other than a stbecause of

Phone post I'll fix it later

Because they can

You got four kids and it's christmas. Any one who cant come up with a whole string of others lacks imagination. Who needs more than three copies of the same book. Who needs to invoke their right against self incrimination more than three times. Who needs to be protected by the fourth amendment more than three times.

It's not about a need. It's about a right. It does not need to be justified.

unbelievable! :rolleyes:

yakmon
06-15-2011, 9:10 PM
If you wanted to buy 5+ firearms for 5+ different peeps why not buy them gift cards for cost &tax & dros on individual purchases and let receivers figure out legalities?

Meplat
06-15-2011, 9:16 PM
Sorry about the last post I got 3 calls while I was thumbing it out. One of the reasons of me thinking a person not needing 3 of the exact same ( meaning not a glocks in fde black and of green, but 3 black glocks) stlill IMO it's your right two buy them. But it's still suspicious . Maybes 3 is an arbritrarally low number, make it 10 or 20.

The only troublesome mass purchaser seems to be BATFE.

yakmon
06-15-2011, 9:21 PM
So you'd rather take the 5th than follow the law?

Meplat
06-15-2011, 9:22 PM
Sorry about the last post I got 3 calls while I was thumbing it out. One of the reasons of me thinking a person not needing 3 of the exact same ( meaning not a glocks in fde black and of green, but 3 black glocks) stlill IMO it's your right two buy them. But it's still suspicious . Maybes 3 is an arbritrarally low number, make it 10 or 20.

I don't think the drug gangs care what color their Glocks come in. They are plastic, you can paint them.

yakmon
06-15-2011, 9:23 PM
I don't believe that ATF know about 100-% of straw buyers

yakmon
06-15-2011, 9:26 PM
To meplat they don't care either, part of
my pt. I'm talking point of sales legal style.

Meplat
06-15-2011, 9:30 PM
I'm betting I'll be eating some crow Tomarrow when Im sober and in front of a proper keyboard but I'll throw ou some responses here

50 diff lowers.... Call them stripped. It up to the buyer after that the only thing diff from stripped and done is time parts and will.


We all know what a straw is, dude.

Alcohol & CG is a dangerous combination. More likely you will be the one eating crow. Been their done that. Got the bruises.

Meplat
06-15-2011, 9:40 PM
If you wanted to buy 5+ firearms for 5+ different peeps why not buy them gift cards for cost &tax & dros on individual purchases and let receivers figure out legalities?

There are "peeps" who are not prohibited from owning but are prohibited from buying. Or; what if you are buying them to be put away for your grandchildren.

It's just none of aney ones' business.

Caladain
06-15-2011, 9:42 PM
Calling Librarian or other admins for thread cleanup.

Oh..and watching part 3 now...dear jebus, that was *great* entertainment.

BannedinBritain
06-15-2011, 9:45 PM
ATF has been using this sort of "tactic" for years with drug enforcement. They will allow illegal substances to be bought and sold in the hopes of "catching the bigger fish". Guns, unlike drugs, have a serial number...and can be traced...and it worked out badly for the ATF. I'm sure some individuals who bought drugs with ATF's knowledge/permission have probably died or been involved in crime as a direct result of ATF's decision to allow the transaction...but it would be next to impossible to prove.

Meplat
06-15-2011, 9:48 PM
So you'd rather take the 5th than follow the law?

This is either a result of the modern American school system or a.......

:troll:

sfbadger
06-15-2011, 11:54 PM
Obviously we can't just do without the ATF,...

I disagree completely also. If the BATFE disappeared tomorrow, I believe America would do just fine! It won't go away because an entrenched bureaucracy never does. The only hope for ATF disappearing is the election of Ron Paul as POTUS.

2Bear
06-16-2011, 1:05 AM
Ron Paul as POTUS.

Ron Paul as POTUS = PAULTUS™

Patrick-2
06-16-2011, 4:16 AM
If you disband ATF, the functions inherent within it will be dispersed into the rest of the DoJ and Homeland Security. They will be spread to the wind, never able to be corralled.

Consider the fact that the NRA every year forces the ATF budget to be stripped and limited. It is well known on the Hill and in Law Enforcement that the ATF is hobbled by pro-gun lobbyists. This is a good thing.

If ATF were disbanded those functions would be absorbed into places we could not reach. Funding for anti-gun enforcement would go up, not down. Multiple agencies would now be working against you, whereas today we have one key agency that most others ignore.

Trust me when I say the anti-rights crowd would love an opportunity to disband the ATF. It would suit their end-game perfectly. I would not be surprised to see Obama suggest it. If he does that, we need to suck it up and stop him. It will only end horribly for us.

With ATF in the game, we can at least identify our antagonist (I will not say 'enemy' because there are good people over in ATF).

jshoebot
06-16-2011, 5:52 AM
So, I need some help from you guys. The San Diego Union-Tribune finally ran an article today about this whole fiasco. I read the paper every day, and this is the first mention. It was on page A4; pretty much mentioned in passing. I'm not as articulate as I'd like to be, and I'd like some of you to write letters to the editor asking why this hasn't been more well-covered. I wrote one, here it is:

In reading the UT on the morning of 6/16, I finally saw an article about Operation Fast and Furious and Operation Gunrunner, and the relevant hearings in Congress. That article was on page A4. Why is this not a bigger deal? Someone in a leadership roll within our government blatantly and deliberately attempted to demonize gun owners and gun stores in America, by allowing cartel members to purchase over 2500 guns and smuggle them into Mexico. At least two of those weapons were used to murder a US Border Patrol agent in Arizona. Untold amounts of killings have happened in Mexico with these guns, smuggled across our border with BATFE's blessing. Why is the media keeping this under the radar?


Basically I want the UT to run more articles on the subject, so I'd appreciate it if you guys could whip up some letters and send them in.

Send letters to letters@uniontrib.com

It's a stipulation that you have to put your name, location, and daytime phone number at the end of the email. If they print your letter, they just put your name and location. Please use San Diego as your location if you write a letter. Thanks for the help fellas, wish I was more articulate!

If any letters are printed about this, I'll post them up so whoever wrote it can get recognition :thumbsup:

Skidmark
06-16-2011, 7:07 AM
Issa appears to have a very strange relationship with the concept of open testimony: http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/06/issa_refuses_to_allow_let_atf_agents_testify_again st_toothless_gun_laws_video.php?ref=fpblg

Trailboss60
06-16-2011, 7:53 AM
Issa appears to have a very strange relationship with the concept of open testimony: http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/06/issa_refuses_to_allow_let_atf_agents_testify_again st_toothless_gun_laws_video.php?ref=fpblg

That is a total mis-characterization of what went on, Rep. Maloney wanted to depart from the subject on hand and started a line of questioning to the agents about current gun laws, and it was obvious that she was fishing for sound bites to help in building a foundation for more draconian gun laws.
Issa told her that legislative issues are outside the scope of this investigation, to which she tried to act innocent about it all....Maloney is an ardent gun control activist, and a fishy smelling douchebag.

http://www.ontheissues.org/NY/Carolyn_Maloney_Gun_Control.htm


http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/Sting

Her idiotic questioning starts at 49:40

Patrick-2
06-16-2011, 7:57 AM
Issa appears to have a very strange relationship with the concept of open testimony: http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/06/issa_refuses_to_allow_let_atf_agents_testify_again st_toothless_gun_laws_video.php?ref=fpblg

The agents did say they wanted to see a long gun report for multiple sales. From their perspective, it makes perfect sense because law enforcement wants to know who is buying arms. From our perspective, it is horrible policy because law enforcement wants to know who is buying arms.

In this case, the electorate wins.

Issa ran a tight ship yesterday and gave the agents a warning shot that he did not want them to contribute to a derailment of the hearing towards gun control policies. It was obvious that the anti's on the committee were attempting to do just that. They wanted to distract the issue.

The agents - while dipping their toes lightly - stayed out of that pool. Right now they need friends, and you can bet the anti-rights people are just a little angry with them right now. Issa and Grassley are all they got. They got the message and didn't cross the line into legislative policy. I don't consider it 'censorship', but rather setting the tone and direction of the hearing. The Dems have had numerous gun-control hearings this session on everything from mag limits to assault weapons to 'gun show loopholes'. They set their tone, he set his.

Paul S
06-16-2011, 8:18 AM
If you disband ATF, the functions inherent within it will be dispersed into the rest of the DoJ and Homeland Security. They will be spread to the wind, never able to be corralled.

Consider the fact that the NRA every year forces the ATF budget to be stripped and limited. It is well known on the Hill and in Law Enforcement that the ATF is hobbled by pro-gun lobbyists. This is a good thing.

If ATF were disbanded those functions would be absorbed into places we could not reach. Funding for anti-gun enforcement would go up, not down. Multiple agencies would now be working against you, whereas today we have one key agency that most others ignore.

Trust me when I say the anti-rights crowd would love an opportunity to disband the ATF. It would suit their end-game perfectly. I would not be surprised to see Obama suggest it. If he does that, we need to suck it up and stop him. It will only end horribly for us.

With ATF in the game, we can at least identify our antagonist (I will not say 'enemy' because there are good people over in ATF).

Very good analysis which has much merit. But I question the premise that BATFE is being hobbled. Perhaps after the fast and furious hearings but I would submit, not yet.

misterjake
06-16-2011, 8:37 AM
2U1ncT1QDuo&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Patrick-2
06-16-2011, 8:56 AM
Very good analysis which has much merit. But I question the premise that BATFE is being hobbled. Perhaps after the fast and furious hearings but I would submit, not yet.

Congressional aides tell me ATF is constantly getting chipped away by someone with an axe to grind on the 'A', 'T' and 'F' front. Someone is always upset at the agency for an enforcement they feel is excessive.

By far, the ATF's primary focus is on firearms these days. So the NRA is front and center in that calculus.

I am told that ATF gets back in petty little ways, like starving the NFA branch of examiners for processing. There was talk that Congress would fund a line item specifically and significantly to increase the headcount for that group, but then ATF added a handful of new examiners to avoid it. I think there are roughly 14 examiners today (up from 9 last year), but I'd like to see about 50 just to handle the current load. It takes 4+ months to get an app back.

Every agency says they are short-staffed, but ATF is especially so. Their field offices are tiny and cover larger areas than any other group. Of course, this has led to claims they are 'insular'.

And we cannot forget that they still are without a director because we won't let them confirm him.

My larger point is that while we don't control ATF, we currently have some play. Eliminate the snake and we'll end up with a multi-headed hydra we cannot even find, let alone fight.

MP301
06-16-2011, 9:20 AM
Congressional aides tell me ATF is constantly getting chipped away by someone with an axe to grind on the 'A', 'T' and 'F' front. Someone is always upset at the agency for an enforcement they feel is excessive.

By far, the ATF's primary focus is on firearms these days. So the NRA is front and center in that calculus.

I am told that ATF gets back in petty little ways, like starving the NFA branch of examiners for processing. There was talk that Congress would fund a line item specifically and significantly to increase the headcount for that group, but then ATF added a handful of new examiners to avoid it. I think there are roughly 14 examiners today (up from 9 last year), but I'd like to see about 50 just to handle the current load. It takes 4+ months to get an app back.

Every agency says they are short-staffed, but ATF is especially so. Their field offices are tiny and cover larger areas than any other group. Of course, this has led to claims they are 'insular'.

And we cannot forget that they still are without a director because we won't let them confirm him.

My larger point is that while we don't control ATF, we currently have some play. Eliminate the snake and we'll end up with a multi-headed hydra we cannot even find, let alone fight.

Spot on Patrick! It is nice to know that some people understand the saying "be careful what you wish for". If ATF goes away it will be worse. Its far better if they are just kept in check.

Meplat
06-16-2011, 9:45 AM
and a fishy smelling douchebag.



If girls are made of sugar and spice, how come they taste like tuna?;)

Meplat
06-16-2011, 10:00 AM
It looks like Stockholm syndrome is alive and well on CG!

Uxi
06-16-2011, 10:47 AM
Not so sure I agree that ATF going away would be bad. Our side would remain united and should be more powerful and coordinated to take on splinter groups. On it's face, BATFE is a generally bad idea that the Feds don't have much of a say sticking those noses in. Getting rid of it entirely doesn't seem practical, though neutering (or forcefully redirecting it back towards explosives or tabacco) is a good thing and certainly keeping an anti-gun nutter out of it's leadership is important.

jonyg
06-16-2011, 1:00 PM
Issa appears to have a very strange relationship with the concept of open testimony: http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/06/issa_refuses_to_allow_let_atf_agents_testify_again st_toothless_gun_laws_video.php?ref=fpblg

Rep. Maloney is remarkable. The first chance she gets she tries to turn the situation into a political chip RIGHT IN FRONT OF THE FAMILY!
Within the hour of the family's testimony she tries to turn this into a "lets try and find a reason to support my political platform"!
Disgusting.
Then after Issa stops her she plays innocent! The nerve....:mad:

kcbrown
06-16-2011, 1:11 PM
If you disband ATF, the functions inherent within it will be dispersed into the rest of the DoJ and Homeland Security. They will be spread to the wind, never able to be corralled.

Consider the fact that the NRA every year forces the ATF budget to be stripped and limited. It is well known on the Hill and in Law Enforcement that the ATF is hobbled by pro-gun lobbyists. This is a good thing.

If ATF were disbanded those functions would be absorbed into places we could not reach. Funding for anti-gun enforcement would go up, not down. Multiple agencies would now be working against you, whereas today we have one key agency that most others ignore.

Trust me when I say the anti-rights crowd would love an opportunity to disband the ATF. It would suit their end-game perfectly. I would not be surprised to see Obama suggest it. If he does that, we need to suck it up and stop him. It will only end horribly for us.

With ATF in the game, we can at least identify our antagonist (I will not say 'enemy' because there are good people over in ATF).

This is an excellent point. So I should change my original assertion to say: either the ATF should be disbanded entirely, or it should be completely neutered, whichever yields the best effect. :D

wash
06-16-2011, 2:34 PM
Has anyone here ever read about counting cards in Blackjack?

The way it works is every card is given a numerical value of +1 or -1 and you just keep a tally of one number. When it is positive, you bet one way, when it is negative you bet another.

If the ATF did that, they could run a tally, even an anonymous tally that they would only check if a person created a suspect pattern of purchases. That could catch the big time straw purchasers. There is nothing ATF can do to solve the kind of baby momma drama which is the real straw purchase problem in this country.

That could be done without a long gun registration and events could expire, so that Christmas when you buy identical ARs for your six children won't flag you five years later when you decide to add two stripped AR lowers to a DROS.

There is probably a way to abuse a system like that so it would have to be administered very carefully but if you want to prevent crime without violating our privacy, that is the way to do it.

otteray
06-16-2011, 4:52 PM
If girls are made of sugar and spice, how come they taste like tuna?;)
Turn it over.
You have the wrong side up.

Trailboss60
06-16-2011, 5:15 PM
If girls are made of sugar and spice, how come they taste like tuna?;)

I thought it was only liberal hags....


http://blogs4conservatives.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/republican-women2.jpg

Jack L
06-16-2011, 5:20 PM
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/269803/atf-officials-implicated-operation-fast-and-furious-frank-miniter

sfbadger
06-16-2011, 6:35 PM
I thought it was only liberal hags....


http://blogs4conservatives.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/republican-women2.jpg

Damn, that Ann Coulter is hot, hot, ho .... :puke: Sorry, I couldn't keep it down.

Janine Turner is sure easy on the eyes, though! :D

kcbrown
06-16-2011, 9:08 PM
Since I like to make predictions using my cynicism, I'll do so now: I predict that nothing of any real consequence is going to happen to any of the major players who made this happen, most especially those at the top of it. If anything happens at all, it'll be to some lower level lackey who will be left holding the bag.

Stonewalker
06-16-2011, 9:22 PM
Since I like to make predictions using my cynicism, I'll do so now: I predict that nothing of any real consequence is going to happen to any of the major players who made this happen, most especially those at the top of it. If anything happens at all, it'll be to some lower level lackey who will be left holding the bag.

Presidents are never held accountable for their crimes.

sfbadger
06-16-2011, 9:30 PM
Since I like to make predictions using my cynicism, I'll do so now: I predict that nothing of any real consequence is going to happen to any of the major players who made this happen, most especially those at the top of it. If anything happens at all, it'll be to some lower level lackey who will be left holding the bag.

:iagree: Your cynicism is not without merit or reason. History tells us that your cynical predictions are likely to be proven accurate.

Werewolf1021
06-16-2011, 11:09 PM
Issa appears to have a very strange relationship with the concept of open testimony: http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/06/issa_refuses_to_allow_let_atf_agents_testify_again st_toothless_gun_laws_video.php?ref=fpblg

Bull. That was nothing more than the ATF trying to weasel their way out of blame.

"We only sold firearms to cartels because gun laws are lax, despite the fact that we were alerted by dealers that the potential buyers may have been smugglers for the cartels."

GOEX FFF
06-17-2011, 2:10 AM
Presidents are never held accountable for their crimes.

I wouldn't say NEVER... ;)

http://npaphistory.wikispaces.com/file/view/NixonResignsNYT488.gif/101147617/NixonResignsNYT488.gif

GOEX FFF
06-17-2011, 2:23 AM
One thing I think we can all be certain of, is that this whole "plan" can't hardly be used anymore as a catalyst for more gun-control..ie another AWB. Let it be known though, I'm nearly certain if this adminstration was so bold to allow this, they've gotta have more tricks for "under the radar" gun-control. Hopefully they get slammed so hard in this case, they can't bounce back to continue with their illegal agenda.

winxp_man
06-17-2011, 3:00 AM
The agents did say they wanted to see a long gun report for multiple sales. From their perspective, it makes perfect sense because law enforcement wants to know who is buying arms. From our perspective, it is horrible policy because law enforcement wants to know who is buying arms.

In this case, the electorate wins.

Issa ran a tight ship yesterday and gave the agents a warning shot that he did not want them to contribute to a derailment of the hearing towards gun control policies. It was obvious that the anti's on the committee were attempting to do just that. They wanted to distract the issue.

The agents - while dipping their toes lightly - stayed out of that pool. Right now they need friends, and you can bet the anti-rights people are just a little angry with them right now. Issa and Grassley are all they got. They got the message and didn't cross the line into legislative policy. I don't consider it 'censorship', but rather setting the tone and direction of the hearing. The Dems have had numerous gun-control hearings this session on everything from mag limits to assault weapons to 'gun show loopholes'. They set their tone, he set his.


I really like how Issa is ***** slapping all the dumb *** *****es that deserve to get slapped. I really hate how they have the guts to try to slip in the gun law issues.

Trailboss60
06-17-2011, 3:46 AM
One thing I think we can all be certain of, is that this whole "plan" can't hardly be used anymore as a catalyst for more gun-control..ie another AWB. Let it be known though, I'm nearly certain if this adminstration was so bold to allow this, they've gotta have more tricks for "under the radar" gun-control. Hopefully they get slammed so hard in this case, they can't bounce back to continue with their illegal agenda.


I agree..it would be a hard sell to push for anti-gun legislation at this point.
I have no doubt in my mind that Project gunrunner's main purpose was to "prove" that American gun stores were responsible for the violence in Mexico, and an effort to turn Opinion towards more gun control.

When you have a president that sat on the board of the Joyce foundation, it doesn't take a crystal ball to see what is going on here...the founding fathers warned us about such reprobates.

Patrick-2
06-17-2011, 4:01 AM
I agree..it would be a hard sell to push for anti-gun legislation at this point.
I have no doubt in my mind that Project gunrunner's main purpose was to "prove" that American gun stores were responsible for the violence in Mexico, and an effort to turn Opinion towards more gun control.

When you have a president that sat on the board of the Joyce foundation, it doesn't take a crystal ball to see what is going on here...the founding fathers warned us about such reprobates.

+1 on the use of the word "reprobate". It is one of my favorite.

Other point I agree with, as well.

jl123
06-17-2011, 4:35 AM
I wouldn't say NEVER... ;)

http://npaphistory.wikispaces.com/file/view/NixonResignsNYT488.gif/101147617/NixonResignsNYT488.gif

He was forced to quit and then didn't Ford pardon him. That isn't punishment. It's a joke.

Skidmark
06-17-2011, 7:38 AM
Bull. That was nothing more than the ATF trying to weasel their way out of blame.

It was an open Congressional hearing, where congress critters can ask whatever questions they want, and those asked to testify can answer in whatever way they wish. Issa is a bit of a nut case, and while I'm glad he's putting heat on BATFE and their rogue operations, he comes off looking the fool when he attempts to muzzle other congressmen and censor those people asked to testify.

emcon5
06-17-2011, 8:12 AM
Bull. That was nothing more than the ATF trying to weasel their way out of blame.

"We only sold firearms to cartels because gun laws are lax, despite the fact that we were alerted by dealers that the potential buyers may have been smugglers for the cartels."

Well, the "toothless" comment is kind of accurate. There isn't much threat to turn someone against the next guys up the chain, if the punishment for a straw purchase is generally probation.

"We want you to cooperate against these people who cut heads off for fun, and if you don't, you will be on probation"

Good luck with that......

Conspiracy charges would have more teeth, but from what I have heard so far, nobody seemed to be working that angle.

The testimony against the US Attorney's office is pretty damning.

MP301
06-17-2011, 8:16 AM
It was an open Congressional hearing, where congress critters can ask whatever questions they want, and those asked to testify can answer in whatever way they wish. Issa is a bit of a nut case, and while I'm glad he's putting heat on BATFE and their rogue operations, he comes off looking the fool when he attempts to muzzle other congressmen and censor those people asked to testify.

Serioiusly? What hearing did you watch? He did not look like a fool in the least. He tried to keep the hearing on track by trying to keep the real idiots from turning the hearing into a gun control debate! They cant ask whatever they want if its not directly related to the hearing. How the hell else would they get anywhere if he let the apologists deivert the scope away from the real issues like they tried to do?

And not once did he try to censor the witnesses. That is total BS. You obviously watched the hearing with a tainted eye.

IMHO, he didnt go far enough. They still danced around touting the gun control crap trying to be sly and he didnt stop them.

And that Smarmy sleazy Government lawyer was a prime example of a double talking dirtbag that is the Obama administration. Like it or not.

Uxi
06-17-2011, 8:24 AM
He was forced to quit and then didn't Ford pardon him. That isn't punishment. It's a joke.

Public disgrace is pretty punishing. It's not like a trip to a nominal Club Fed is going to be doing hard time or anything.

In any case, I could well be satisfied with a similar outcome for this administration. Yeah, I like the idea of Barry behind bars, but that's not happening barring him nuking a former ally or deciding he doesn't like one of Michelle's dresses and chopping her head off Al-Qaeda style or something. lol

Wernher von Browning
06-17-2011, 8:37 AM
Bull. That was nothing more than the ATF trying to weasel their way out of blame.

"We only sold firearms to cartels because gun laws are lax, despite the fact that we were alerted by dealers that the potential buyers may have been smugglers for the cartels."


This is like the kid who murdered his parents, pleading for leniency in court because he was now an orphan.

GOEX FFF
06-17-2011, 2:41 PM
Public disgrace is pretty punishing. It's not like a trip to a nominal Club Fed is going to be doing hard time or anything.

In any case, I could well be satisfied with a similar outcome for this administration. Yeah, I like the idea of Barry behind bars, but that's not happening barring him nuking a former ally or deciding he doesn't like one of Michelle's dresses and chopping her head off Al-Qaeda style or something. lol


Agreed, If one thinks that you're only punished if you're sitting in a cell... :rolleyes:

A president being forced to resign is not anything light....Pardoned or not, Watergate RUINED Nixon. This Fast & Furious scandal, if found that Obama had direct ties and similar coverups, has the same potential and detrimental effects for him too.

Current event side note: Anthony Wiener isn't going to sit in a cell either,
but he's been severely punished publicly and his political career is shot...Sounds like a form of punishment to me!

FastFinger
06-17-2011, 3:30 PM
It's good that this story is getting a bit more coverage (even though it deserves A LOT more), but most articles are burying the lead.

The top usually deals with the border agent being killed, or the general mayhem in Mexico. Although those are both tragic results of this craven conspiracy, I think the greater evil, and the actual intent, was a plot to gin up public sentiment in order to further restrict, reduce, and limit or 2A civil rights.

Holder et al. speak about some noble goal of hobbling the Mexican NarcoThugs, even if that was their true intent, which it wasn't, they failed miserably. But for a few weeks there their ture plot was working, and to the extent that the press isn't being fully honest now, it still is working a bit.

I recall that spat of articles with headlines screaming "90% of all guns traces to USA". We all know that even the headlines were wrong - but that message got out and gained traction. That's the true story here. High level bureaucrats (my guess is that includes Holder) foisted this entire scam with the sole intent of lying to the public and passing more gun laws. Innocent people on both sides of the border died to support that lie, NarcoThugs were empowered by the lie, Mexican society deteriorated to feed the lie, and both the press and our government continues to aid and abet the lie. That should be the lead. Period.

GOEX FFF
06-17-2011, 3:43 PM
uhh wow, Anderson360 on CNN will be covering this tonight.... Granted it wont be Anderson Cooper, but will finally be talked about on CNN on TV nontheless. :clap:

They have an obligation to report on it.. I just wonder how they'll spin it for more gun-control. :rolleyes: We shall see........

http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2011/06/17/ac360-preview-atf-gun-operation-under-scrutiny/

wash
06-17-2011, 3:44 PM
Who here thinks Fast and Furious is worse than Watergate?

I do.

And you know there is some guy at ATF walking around thinking that he's Vin Diesel.

Maestro Pistolero
06-17-2011, 3:53 PM
What is inexplicable is why, in each case, they discontinued surveillance of the trail of the weapons they were claiming to use to lead them to the fabled network of traffickers. It's as if the leadership wanted these weapons to be used in crimes so they could reinforce the need for the agency's continued existence. If that's not true, what other possible explanation could there be?

wash
06-17-2011, 3:57 PM
They are the anti-gun gnomes:

Step one- sell guns to drug cartels!

Step two- ?

Step three- gun ban!

Maestro Pistolero
06-17-2011, 4:01 PM
Once again, their extremism is blowing up in their face. Their ideology functions like an addiction. They engage in increasingly dangerous and irrational behavior in a desperate search for the ideal state.

GOEX FFF
06-17-2011, 8:21 PM
The story is on CNN with Anderson Cooper "Keeping them honest" right now.
THANK GOD this has now hit the mainstream media, there is No ignoring it now...
It's all talk about this is ABSURD and that it HAS to be from the highest level of Government at the whitehouse and NO ONE is taking responsibility.
No mention of "gun-control" thus far from CNN. Let the heads roll!

stitchnicklas
06-17-2011, 9:04 PM
when is the next hearing????

Beatone
06-17-2011, 9:30 PM
Looks like a lot of people are going to pay for this debacle. I can’t wait to hear what the top ATF, US attorneys, and the current administration have to say. What a bunch of idiots. Who thought this mess up and was allowed to keep it going.
The next round of hearings should be very interesting. Lot of fireworks for sure.

tankarian
06-17-2011, 9:31 PM
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-L3-Pg2XP1K4/TfrWApkkr4I/AAAAAAAAIks/jf4dSsTlSec/s400/Obamagunwalker.gif

Paul S
06-17-2011, 9:56 PM
Looks like a lot of people are going to pay for this debacle. I can’t wait to hear what the top ATF, US attorneys, and the current administration have to say. What a bunch of idiots. Who thought this mess up and was allowed to keep it going.
The next round of hearings should be very interesting. Lot of fireworks for sure.

I suspect the administration has already laid plans to close ranks, and make several claims to avoid having ANYONE with ANY AUTHORITY testify to anything. There have already been claims that testimony cannot be given because it will jeopardize and ongoing investigation. My guess is we'll soon hear the claim of national security to shut down as much testimony as possible. Rep Issa will have a major fight on his hands in terms of meaningful testimony from anyone in authority who is directly involved. What he's gotten so far and will continue to get is the sacrificial low level ATF agent.

hvengel
06-17-2011, 10:43 PM
I suspect the administration has already laid plans to close ranks, and make several claims to avoid having ANYONE with ANY AUTHORITY testify to anything. There have already been claims that testimony cannot be given because it will jeopardize and ongoing investigation. My guess is we'll soon hear the claim of national security to shut down as much testimony as possible. Rep Issa will have a major fight on his hands in terms of meaningful testimony from anyone in authority who is directly involved. What he's gotten so far and will continue to get is the sacrificial low level ATF agent.

Some one up the food chain WILL end up under the bus. The real question is how high up the food chain. The longer they stone wall the bigger and more damaging the story becomes. I think that they are actively looking for someone willing to fall on their sword to get this out of the way if the scandal keeps growing and starts to take on a life of it's own. But IMHO I think this has already happened. It is clear that people died because of this and one of those was a US law enforcement agent. That makes this a big deal and now that it is being picked up by the lame stream media it will stay around until all, or at least most, of the facts are out.

If I were BHO I would want this out of the way sooner rather than later for several reasons.

First Weiner and now this are distractions that are preventing them from being affective with their medascare tactics. Every week that this is in the news is a week were they can't scare old people and in the end this will have an impact in 2012 for all Dems not just BHO.

Second if this drags on for a long time it will surround BHO with the stink of scandal and the closer it is to the election before this is settled the harder it will be for him to get rid of that stink. He already has fairly high negatives among independent voters and he needs to be squeaky clean from here to the election to win them back and this scandal does not help him at all.

Having said this I don't think coming clean is in this administration's DNA. They are far left ideologues who came to power by hiding their true intentions and ideology. That is they got where they are by being dishonest and they have been doing this for a very long time. Thus they will not stop at this point because they have gotten away with it for so long that they think that they will continue to get away with it.

Wernher von Browning
06-17-2011, 10:49 PM
Prediction:

Something will be done using Syria. Then all attention will shift to that, and away from the (literally) smoking guns pointed back toward the administration.

See Lewinsky / cruise missile raids on Sudan and Bin Laden's camps. See "Wag the Dog."

Maestro Pistolero
06-17-2011, 11:30 PM
Some one up the food chain WILL end up under the bus. The real question is how high up the food chain. The longer they stone wall the bigger and more damaging the story becomes. I think that they are actively looking for someone willing to fall on their sword to get this out of the way if the scandal keeps growing and starts to take on a life of it's own. But IMHO I think this has already happened. It is clear that people died because of this and one of those was a US law enforcement agent. That makes this a big deal and now that it is being picked up by the lame stream media it will stay around until all, or at least most, of the facts are out.

If I were BHO I would want this out of the way sooner rather than later for several reasons.

First Weiner and now this are distractions that are preventing them from being affective with their medascare tactics. Every week that this is in the news is a week were they can't scare old people and in the end this will have an impact in 2012 for all Dems not just BHO.

Second if this drags on for a long time it will surround BHO with the stink of scandal and the closer it is to the election before this is settled the harder it will be for him to get rid of that stink. He already has fairly high negatives among independent voters and he needs to be squeaky clean from here to the election to win them back and this scandal does not help him at all.

Having said this I don't think coming clean is in this administration's DNA. They are far left ideologues who came to power by hiding their true intentions and ideology. That is they got where they are by being dishonest and they have been doing this for a very long time. Thus they will not stop at this point because they have gotten away with it for so long that they think that they will continue to get away with it.
Good summary of the state of things and where this is likely going. How much authority does the congress have to subpoena testimony from the executive branch? Could they call Holder in? The worst thing that could happen is more people die with those weapons.

I'm the last person to say this, but now Mexico finally has a legitimate complaint, and it isn't gun shops or unscrupulous dealers. It's the very administration that would have had everyone believing that lie.

This truly is a fustercluck, and I agree, someone, if not several people are going to take a hit for it. Anyone that had any supervisory role in this is, and ought to be screwed. This operation makes gun shows look like nearly ideal models for compliance.

GOEX FFF
06-17-2011, 11:41 PM
This is from the WSJ today -

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304453304576392023631543738.html?m od=googlenews_wsj

"The Justice Department is expected to oust the head of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, according to people familiar with the matter, amid a troubled federal antitrafficking operation that has grown into the agency's biggest scandal in nearly two decades.

Just a speculation.....Now, IF this is true, let's just SAY that they oust Melson and they throw him out there and under the bus alone for this to try and save their own a**es, the best Melson could do in this matter is rat out the other people involved taking them down with him. But I suspect there will be more heads rolling than just Melson in this matter, when information in documents become more avalible.

GOEX FFF
06-17-2011, 11:56 PM
Good summary of the state of things and where this is likely going. How much authority does the congress have to subpoena testimony from the executive branch? Could they call Holder in?

Well, as stated in the first hearings, according to the leagl panel, they could find DOJ in contempt.

CharlesV
06-18-2011, 2:56 AM
I think obama quickly fired the ATF head to disfuse interest in other people and in the case in general. I wont be surprised if we start hearing analogies to Iran-Contra hearings soon and i hope Issa doesnt give up or forced out either. I think fast-furious was a false flag operation designed to discredit dealers to add fuel to the public for the need to disarm the public before we sink into economic chaos. Obama lied in the campaign about gun rights, Hillary and Holder make no excuses for their hate of guns and all three are looking for any ammo to initiate a general ban. This time it didnt work, my guess is that they will in anger bypass the next "fast furious" and go straight to enhanced Patriot Act provisions to ban everything because protecting 2AMEND isnt their agenda.

It should infuriate every american that the ATF would so blatantly violate the very laws that they are in business to protect in the first place, over the objections of honest dealers and honest ATF agents. Its unbelievable and more than maddening. Its our new Iran-Contra scandal and i pray for the heads to roll this time and this is not covered up in dubious "Warren Commission Reports" and "Tower Commission Reports" either. My god, what kind of country....

ccmc
06-18-2011, 5:36 AM
Who here thinks Fast and Furious is worse than Watergate?

I do.


Add me to that list.

tankarian
06-18-2011, 7:05 AM
The gift that keeps on taking. Gunwalker Kalashnikovs used by murderers of tortured Mexican lawyer (http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/2011/06/gift-that-keeps-on-taking-gunwalker.html).
But it's OK because Obama didn't "authorize" it.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-t_asHr98Z3s/Tfx1HQ0XaLI/AAAAAAAAIlc/i2VsYoaIeBo/s400/MarioGonzalez.jpg
FOX: Two AK-47s Used to Murder Mexican Lawyer Were 'Fast and Furious' Guns From U.S., Sources Say.

http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/2011/06/gift-that-keeps-on-taking-gunwalker.html

emcon5
06-18-2011, 7:10 AM
This is from the WSJ today -

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304453304576392023631543738.html?m od=googlenews_wsj

Just a speculation.....Now, IF this is true, let's just SAY that they oust Melson and they throw him out there and under the bus alone for this to try and save their own a**es, the best Melson could do in this matter is rat out the other people involved taking them down with him. But I suspect there will be more heads rolling than just Melson in this matter, when information in documents become more avalible.

Honestly, does firing the acting director mean anything? He knew it was a short term gig anyway, until the President gets his nominee approved, who is even worse (http://www.nraila.org/legislation/read.aspx?id=6084).

He may object to being the scapegoat, we can only hope.

Who here thinks Fast and Furious is worse than Watergate?Absolutely. Nobody died in Watergate.

What I really can't figure out is the timeline. I see a lot of references to "Fast and Furious" starting in 2008. President Obama didn't take office until Jan 2009. Did the scope increase after the new guys were in charge? Did they take a bad idea and run with it?

And I have no doubt that the Justice department wouldn't be stonewalling were they able to pin it somehow on George W Bush and his administration.

Fyathyrio
06-18-2011, 9:07 AM
I think the only way this fiasco will stay near the top of the news cycle is if Mexico gets vocal. I'm pretty surprised they haven't gone ballistic over the fact that our gov't has armed their version of terrorists. I suspect a few billion tax dollars will soon head south of the border to try and prevent that response.

jonyg
06-18-2011, 12:17 PM
Come on...if ever there was a time I want wikileaks to release something big, it's now! There's got to be some document implicating how high up this went. I hope someone has the guts to leak it.

Coded-Dude
06-18-2011, 12:26 PM
i applaud the field agents who had the balls to blow the whistle on this reckless attempt to further gun control. your service to this country is greatly appreciated!

sfbadger
06-18-2011, 12:31 PM
Come on...if ever there was a time I want wikileaks to release something big, it's now! There's got to be some document implicating how high up this went. I hope someone has the guts to leak it.

The members of Congress who want to see the facts of this operation come to light should offer any ATF agents involved "Whistle Blower" status. I'm sure there are more agents who would like to come forward but are silent out of fear of retaliation.

GOEX FFF
06-18-2011, 8:11 PM
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-L3-Pg2XP1K4/TfrWApkkr4I/AAAAAAAAIks/jf4dSsTlSec/s400/Obamagunwalker.gif

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-OJL__2AUqEo/TZDVaPuTXgI/AAAAAAAACxs/e324N65MLIY/s640/Borderline%2BMadness.jpg

ZenDaddy
06-24-2011, 5:42 PM
How about a liberal leftist media (NPR anyone?) spin on the story:

Current and former federal officials say their hands are tied because of weak U.S. gun laws. Possessing a gun isn't a crime, unlike, say, possessing cocaine. And, to bring a prosecution, the government must demonstrate that a straw purchaser had bad intentions.

"No legitimate examination of this issue would be complete without examining our nation's gun laws, which allow tens of thousands of assault weapons to flow from the United States to Mexico every year," Maryland Democratic Rep. Elijah Cummings says.

Full story here (http://www.npr.org/2011/06/24/137392365/lawmakers-criticize-fast-and-furious-operation)

I want to throw up :puke:

Skidmark
06-24-2011, 5:51 PM
How about a liberal leftist media (NPR anyone?) spin on the story:

Full story here (http://www.npr.org/2011/06/24/137392365/lawmakers-criticize-fast-and-furious-operation) I want to throw up :puke:

It was a fair and reasonable story - nothing like the slanted coverage you would seem to imply.

RRangel
06-24-2011, 6:33 PM
It was a fair and reasonable story - nothing like the slanted coverage you would seem to imply.

Yes, because possessing a gun should be compared to possessing cocaine. With friends like you we don't need enemies.

rrr70
06-24-2011, 6:40 PM
It was a fair and reasonable story - nothing like the slanted coverage you would seem to imply.

Dude, whatever you smoking, stop it. It affects your thinking ability.

Skidmark
06-24-2011, 6:42 PM
Yes, because possessing a gun should be compared to possessing cocaine. With friends like you we don't need enemies.

Get a grip on something besides straws. The bit you reference is:

Current and former federal officials say their hands are tied because of weak U.S. gun laws. Possessing a gun isn't a crime, unlike, say, possessing cocaine. And, to bring a prosecution, the government must demonstrate that a straw purchaser had bad intentions.

The reporter noted that gun possession is not illegal, and cocaine possession is. Factual statements, for the great part (we all know that some people are prohibited from owning or possessing firearms). How do you get that the reporter of the story, or their news organization, is slanted against guns? You're asserting bias, but it's just not there.

ZenDaddy
06-24-2011, 6:45 PM
It was a fair and reasonable story - nothing like the slanted coverage you would seem to imply.

ummm... Sarcasm?

edit: I guess not.

jwkincal
06-24-2011, 6:47 PM
...officials say their hands are tied because of weak U.S. gun laws. Possessing a gun isn't a crime...

Maybe the author didn't write it exactly that way, perhaps it was the editor who did it. But the formation of this particular bit of prosaic thread, coupled with the quote of the Congressman which immediately follows it, definitely asserts a bias against the Second Amendment.

I would agree that much of the article was more circumspect, but I don't think that I would call it unbiased either.

RRangel
06-24-2011, 6:59 PM
Get a grip on something besides straws. The bit you reference is:

Current and former federal officials say their hands are tied because of weak U.S. gun laws. Possessing a gun isn't a crime, unlike, say, possessing cocaine. And, to bring a prosecution, the government must demonstrate that a straw purchaser had bad intentions.

The reporter noted that gun possession is not illegal, and cocaine possession is. Factual statements, for the great part (we all know that some people are prohibited from owning or possessing firearms). How do you get that the reporter of the story, or their news organization, is slanted against guns? You're asserting bias, but it's just not there.

Nowhere was it noted that "we all know that some people are prohibited to own guns." That's another on a long list of disingenuous posts from people who post such phony and over the top statements as to be laughable.

Comparing possession of narcotics to constitutional rights is a big red flag. There is absolutely no correlation between the two. The article writer had the audacity to claim that straw purchasers can only be prosecuted if they "had bad intentions." There's plenty more statements in the article that can be taken apart. You're not very convincing.

ZenDaddy
06-24-2011, 7:02 PM
The article first implies that the ATF is simply trying to do what is right by going after the "head of the snake".

That's where the operation, Fast and Furious, comes in. The big multi-agency law enforcement operation was supposed to watch the flow of guns from small fish in the U.S. to big fish in Mexico, using bold strategies such as wiretaps and real-time video surveillance of gun shops in Arizon (Sounds pretty good to me!)

It then implies that Republicans are impeding that righteous program by unfairly charging the ATF with irresponsible policy.

Then, in December, two weapons traced to a man under investigation for straw purchases were found in Arizona, near where U.S. Border Patrol agent Brian Terry died in a gunfight. Things only went south from there.

Republicans in Congress pounced on the issue of who knew what, when.
(What? Those meddling bas###ds!) (Wait, how near? Must be miles..)

Then it is presented that Melson is supported by his staff in his heroic efforts to end the "Iron River Of Guns" from US into Mexico and his reluctance to step down shows that conviction of cause.

An ATF spokesman issued a written statement saying that Melson "continues to be focused on leading ATF in its efforts to reduce violent crime and to stem the flow of firearms to criminals and criminal organizations."

Former ATF agent Mike Bouchard says that sounds about right to him. (What a guy!)

THEN the article points out that the whole clusterfu34 could have been avoided if only the US had stronger Gun control laws!

"No legitimate examination of this issue would be complete without examining our nation's gun laws, which allow tens of thousands of assault weapons to flow from the United States to Mexico every year," Maryland Democratic Rep. Elijah Cummings says. (WE ARE THE BAD GUYS!)

HOW IS THIS NOT BIASED?!!!!



Edit::puke::puke::puke::puke:

HowardW56
06-24-2011, 7:26 PM
http://i624.photobucket.com/albums/tt321/HowardW56/KeefeM20110622.jpg

Skidmark
06-24-2011, 8:33 PM
THEN the article points out that the whole clusterfu34 could have been avoided if only the US had stronger Gun control laws!
Quote:
"No legitimate examination of this issue would be complete without examining our nation's gun laws, which allow tens of thousands of assault weapons to flow from the United States to Mexico every year," Maryland Democratic Rep. Elijah Cummings says.
(WE ARE THE BAD GUYS!)

HOW IS THIS NOT BIASED?!!!!
In other words, you have a problem with the statement by Rep. Cummings, but choose to assign bias on the NPR reporter for that.

ZenDaddy
06-24-2011, 9:13 PM
Yes, I do have a problem with Rep. Cummings statement.

My assertion of bias is rooted in the spirit of the entire article. It is another example (imo) of a biased news source taking a group of statements and reports and facts and carefully presenting them in such a way that a layperson without intimate understanding of the issue will, if said news source is said laypersons accepted source of information, gain a very specific understanding of the subject of the story, forwarding the agenda of the news source. Please don't tell me NPR is without a liberal agenda.

Both right and left leaning journalists do this. This one makes me particularly angry.

wazdat
07-07-2011, 3:02 PM
"The Justice Department is obstructing the congressional investigation of a U.S. law enforcement operation intended to crack down on major weapons traffickers on the Southwest border, according to Ken Melson, the acting director of the ATF."

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/07/06/justice-department-obstructing-fast-and-furious-gun-probe-atf-director-says/?test=latestnews

No! Really?!?

"The alleged coverup involves three law enforcement agencies: the ATF, FBI and the DEA."

Yup... Larry, Moe, and Curley... Our government at work.

tankarian
07-07-2011, 3:20 PM
It was a fair and reasonable story - nothing like the slanted coverage you would seem to imply.

http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/357/357094/folders/273650/2183619BS-meter2.gif

Python2
07-07-2011, 4:01 PM
My assertion of bias is rooted in the spirit of the entire article. .

I agree....and I think that is what Skidmark missed...a very subtle spin.