PDA

View Full Version : Concealed Carry And Police Searches


Patriot_1776
06-07-2011, 11:13 PM
Hi everyone! I was hoping ya'll could help me out with a question I have.


Lets say you are issued a permit and can carry a concealed firearm.
Lets say for some reason you have to interact with a peace officer.
When this cop initiates questioning, should you immediately inform the officer that you are armed and have a permit to legally carry? I believe it would probably be in your best interest, but *ARE YOU REQUIRED TO?*
Note: I know in a vehicle you hand over your CCW Permit with license and registration. What about not in an automobile,though?

Also, after informing the officer of your legal firearm, does that give him reasonable cause for a search?
I understand he can relinquish you of your firearm if he feels it is for his own safety, BUT! *CAN HE SEARCH THE REST OF YOU OR YOUR PROPERTY WITHOUT CONSENT? DOES CONCEALED CARRY ALONE GIVE HIM REASONABLE CAUSE EVEN IF NO LAWS WERE BROKEN?


Thanks in advanced, Cheers!:D

hoffmang
06-07-2011, 11:21 PM
1. No you do not have to tell him anything about your firearm or permit. However, the pragmatic thing to do in a traffic stop is to include your permit with your drivers license and registration if you're actually carrying.

2. Presenting a permit actually does the opposite of creating probable cause to search.

-Gene

safewaysecurity
06-07-2011, 11:27 PM
1. No you do not have to tell him anything about your firearm or permit. However, the pragmatic thing to do in a traffic stop is to include your permit with your drivers license and registration if you're actually carrying.

2. Presenting a permit actually does the opposite of creating probable cause to search.

-Gene

How does it do the opposite? I know presenting a permit itself is not probable cause for anything but how does it do the opposite?

Patriot_1776
06-07-2011, 11:30 PM
Thanks Hoffmang,

Sometimes Police Officers ask "Do you have any weapons on you today?"
Are you then required to inform him of your firearm?
This might seem null, or even rhetorically stupid, but I would like to know.

Thanks again mang

safewaysecurity
06-07-2011, 11:32 PM
Thanks Hoffmang,

Sometimes Police Officers ask "Do you have any weapons on you today?"
Are you then required to inform him of your firearm?
This might seem null, or even rhetorically stupid, but I would like to know.

Thanks again mang

Know you are not required in California. However your permit might have that requirement but there is no state law requiring you to reveal that info.

hoffmang
06-07-2011, 11:44 PM
How does it do the opposite? I know presenting a permit itself is not probable cause for anything but how does it do the opposite?

The permit to carry a firearm means that you have no current wants or warrants and that any firearm you may be in possession of is clearly and demonstrably legal. Therefor you've now blown an officer's arguments that he had probable cause to believe a crime was occurring absent something very else.

-Gene

cdtx2001
06-08-2011, 7:45 AM
The permit to carry a firearm means that you have no current wants or warrants and that any firearm you may be in possession of is clearly and demonstrably legal. Therefor you've now blown an officer's arguments that he had probable cause to believe a crime was occurring absent something very else.

-Gene

That would be the logical conclusion, but for some logic is lost or never used.

sully007
06-08-2011, 8:05 AM
The permit to carry a firearm means that you have no current wants or warrants and that any firearm you may be in possession of is clearly and demonstrably legal. Therefor you've now blown an officer's arguments that he had probable cause to believe a crime was occurring absent something very else.

-Gene

Question?

If HR 822 were to pass, some states do not require you to list your firearm on the permit. How would that effect the firearm issue of what you just stated?
I mean how would they (LE) now know that the "firearm you may be in possession of is clearly and demonstrably legal."?

oldguy870
06-08-2011, 8:24 AM
Before the evil witch OC Sheriff took away my CCW for no reason at all, I was stopped for going 75 MPH on highway 395. I handed my license and my CCW to the highway patrol person. He went back to his car and returned telling me to slow things down.

I am convinced that I would have had a ticket had I not had my CCW.

P.S. This is not an excuse to use a CCW to break the law. I have not had a ticket in 10 years. I just screwed up and the officer was generous by giving me a warning.

ap3572001
06-08-2011, 8:38 AM
If I pull someone over and they show me their drivers license, registration and a CCW permit I will see it as a positive thing. Also, if am talking to someone and they show a ccw and tell me that they have a handgun I am not going to search them for weapons. :) They just told me they have a gun.

Marty33
06-08-2011, 8:58 AM
Advising the officer that you are armed is the smart thing to do. It prevents all kinds of bad scenarios that may occur if the officer notices your concealed gun. Now that is the common sense answer, but I don't believe that you are legally required to disclose your CCW to a police officer.

I would much rather have a citizen disclose to me that they are legally armed then to notice something and prone out a good citizen.

If contacted by a police officer, and carrying, just say "Officer, I have a CCW and am armed".

ap3572001
06-08-2011, 9:20 AM
+1Advising the officer that you are armed is the smart thing to do. It prevents all kinds of bad scenarios that may occur if the officer notices your concealed gun. Now that is the common sense answer, but I don't believe that you are legally required to disclose your CCW to a police officer.

I would much rather have a citizen disclose to me that they are legally armed then to notice something and prone out a good citizen.

If contacted by a police officer, and carrying, just say "Officer, I have a CCW and am armed".

+1!

paul0660
06-08-2011, 9:26 AM
The permit to carry a firearm means that you have no current wants or warrants and that any firearm you may be in possession of is clearly and demonstrably legal. Therefor you've now blown an officer's arguments that he had probable cause to believe a crime was occurring absent something very else.

-Gene

It's just a piece of paper, which is not necessarily confiscated if the permit is revoked. Just like a 03 license, it means that the holder was pretty squeaky clean at issuance. Months or years later, it is no longer a given.

supersonic
06-08-2011, 9:35 AM
Before the evil witch OC Sheriff took away my CCW for no reason at all, I was stopped for going 75 MPH on highway 395. I handed my license and my CCW to the highway patrol person. He went back to his car and returned telling me to slow things down.

I am convinced that I would have had a ticket had I not had my CCW.

P.S. This is not an excuse to use a CCW to break the law. I have not had a ticket in 10 years. I just screwed up and the officer was generous by giving me a warning.

Wow, was this actually CHP??? Everyone I know (myself included) has had similar "luck" - once a Highway Patrol officer pulls you over, he/she has already started writing the ticket. Outside celebrities & politicians, I've never heard of someone actually "getting out of" getting a ticket from one of them. Maybe it's the part of CA I am from.:confused:

Glock22Fan
06-08-2011, 9:55 AM
For all those saying that you do not have to inform the officer that you have a CCW, this may be true in some states and not in others.

In California it is true unless your permit says you should notify them - in which case you should. In some states, it had better be just about the first thing you tell them. This includes Alaska (where there is no permit). From what I've seen on the Alaska cops reality shows, they don't like not knowing immediately.

A concensus of cops and instructors I have talked with about this, here and out of state, is to tell them by handing over your CCW with your license (as recommended above) whether required or not. There's more to gain than there is to lose this way.

If you feel you have to say something (instead of just handing over your permit), tell them you have a permit BEFORE you tell them you have a firearm.

bigcalidave
06-08-2011, 2:08 PM
Advising the officer that you are armed is the smart thing to do. It prevents all kinds of bad scenarios that may occur if the officer notices your concealed gun. Now that is the common sense answer, but I don't believe that you are legally required to disclose your CCW to a police officer.

I would much rather have a citizen disclose to me that they are legally armed then to notice something and prone out a good citizen.

If contacted by a police officer, and carrying, just say "Officer, I have a CCW and am armed".


Notice something and prone out a good citizen? You would just hold someone at gunpoint on suspicion of possessing a gun? Even though you know that citizens can and do have concealed weapons permits?? I think you need to reexamine the job requirements.

hoffmang
06-08-2011, 3:40 PM
It's just a piece of paper, which is not necessarily confiscated if the permit is revoked. Just like a 03 license, it means that the holder was pretty squeaky clean at issuance. Months or years later, it is no longer a given.

Not true. First, I can tell you that sheriffs chase these permits down on revocation. Second, there is a central repository that most LEOs have in car access to that will allow them to see if the permit is still valid.

-Gene

Ubermcoupe
06-08-2011, 3:47 PM
This includes Alaska (where there is no permit) ... they don't like not knowing immediately..

IIRC, Alaska has a state law that says you must declare your armed status upon contact with a LEO.

sully007
06-08-2011, 4:19 PM
I think Florida now has all that information (if you have a CCW or not) in the DMV system, so the LE would know after they run your drivers lic.

kimber_ss
06-08-2011, 4:20 PM
As a strong advocate of the 2nd amendment, I would still feel more at ease passing a CCW permit to the officer and reduce the chance of a misunderstanding. I realize that this in effect gives "the government" more control but in my case I personally would do it. I'm not saying that others must do what I would do, unless it's required by law. (JMHO) (IANAL) <- I am not a lawyer(New acronym)

Glock22Fan
06-08-2011, 4:26 PM
IIRC, Alaska has a state law that says you must declare your armed status upon contact with a LEO.

yea, they said that as well on the show.

Personally I see little or no downside to declaring it. Avoids the possible "OMG, he's hiding a gun!" drama and I can't imagine a single state where it is actually illegal to declare your status this way :D OK, you might get an antsy cop, but think how much more antsy he'd be if he stumbled on your concealed weapon.

I exclude LUCC'd firearms from this. As far as they are concerned, my attitude is "Nothing illegal in my car, officer." (don't tell me this will get me into more trouble, been there, said this, and -- for me at least -- it works.)

kcbrown
06-08-2011, 5:03 PM
The permit to carry a firearm means that you have no current wants or warrants and that any firearm you may be in possession of is clearly and demonstrably legal. Therefor you've now blown an officer's arguments that he had probable cause to believe a crime was occurring absent something very else.



ETA: Nevermind, I just saw your additional response.



I don't see how that necessarily follows.

The permit means that you had no wants or warrants at the time of issuance. It does not ensure that you do not currently have any.

That said, if the officer does a realtime check of the permit's validity and that comes back clean, then that would almost certainly imply what you say here, if the issuance of a want or warrant automatically causes a DOJ database update.

tiki
06-08-2011, 5:15 PM
There's no law requiring me to put my hands where the cop can see them, but I do anyway. One of my goals when I rarely get pulled over is to get the cop from DEFCON 5 to DEFCON 2 as quickly as possible. I can't see anyway that can work against me.


Hey, kcbrown, I'll let him secure my firearm too if he wants to. :laugh:

OttoLoader
06-08-2011, 5:17 PM
Each state has it's own set of laws, for example, Michigan requires the conceal carry permit holder to notify the officer ASAP. Also having a Concealed carry permit does not establish probable cause in MI.
NC requires that the conceal carry holder, if carrying, inform the officer that they have a permit and am carrying. Check each state's laws for specifics.

chris12
06-08-2011, 5:20 PM
There's no law requiring me to put my hands where the cop can see them, but I do anyway. One of my goals when I rarely get pulled over is to get the cop from DEFCON 5 to DEFCON 2 as quickly as possible. I can't see anyway that can work against me.


Hey, kcbrown, I'll let him secure it too if he wants to. :laugh:

Not this again, jk :)

I'm all for calming down an officer, and it likely works 99% of the time. As long as it is my choice, rather than the officer's.

tiki
06-08-2011, 5:33 PM
Not this again, jk :)

I'm all for calming down an officer, and it likely works 99% of the time. As long as it is my choice, rather than the officer's.

Ha ha ha. I couldn't resist.

paul0660
06-08-2011, 5:41 PM
Not true. First, I can tell you that sheriffs chase these permits down on revocation. Second, there is a central repository that most LEOs have in car access to that will allow them to see if the permit is still valid.

-Gene

Still doesn't mean the piece of paper is valid, since it can be "lost" when the sheriff demands it. I put my issuing's 24 hour number on the permit for them to check in case they can't access the repository, especially since I carry a copy as recommended by my Sheriff.

Point is, offering the piece of paper only means you were a good guy once. They will check.

Quiet
06-08-2011, 5:47 PM
Still doesn't mean the piece of paper is valid, since it can be "lost" when the sheriff demands it. I put my issuing's 24 hour number on the permit for them to check in case they can't access the repository, especially since I carry a copy as recommended by my Sheriff.

Point is, offering the piece of paper only means you were a good guy once. They will check.

Since 2010, CA CCW info has been accessible via CLETS.

Cokebottle
06-08-2011, 6:29 PM
Wow, was this actually CHP??? Everyone I know (myself included) has had similar "luck" - once a Highway Patrol officer pulls you over, he/she has already started writing the ticket. Outside celebrities & politicians, I've never heard of someone actually "getting out of" getting a ticket from one of them. Maybe it's the part of CA I am from.:confused:
I got a warning for 82 in a 65 on my bike on the 210 in Arcadia last year.
CHP, not a motor officer.

hoffmang
06-08-2011, 7:52 PM
Still doesn't mean the piece of paper is valid, since it can be "lost" when the sheriff demands it. I put my issuing's 24 hour number on the permit for them to check in case they can't access the repository, especially since I carry a copy as recommended by my Sheriff.

Point is, offering the piece of paper only means you were a good guy once. They will check.

Since 2010, CA CCW info has been accessible via CLETS.

Technically it's that the 12050 permits are placed into AFS which is available via CLETS but meh.

I never said they wouldn't check. I said that it's easy for them to confirm your permit is valid. God help the guy who hands them an invalid permit while carrying...

-Gene

paul0660
06-08-2011, 8:16 PM
God help the guy who hands them an invalid permit while carrying...


Bad boyz bad boyz..............whatcha gonna dooooooo?

gunsmith
06-08-2011, 8:23 PM
they best thing to do if stopped is yell, "I've got a gun man, why aren't you out stopping real crime, I pay your salary dude" that always relaxes most LE.

MaHoTex
06-08-2011, 8:38 PM
Heh... That always works for me. ;)

ilkhan
06-08-2011, 8:40 PM
How does it do the opposite? I know presenting a permit itself is not probable cause for anything but how does it do the opposite?
It removes "hey, I see a gun printing" as a possible probably cause. Because if you have a permit printing isn't illegal, if you dont have a permit you're illegally carrying and if the officer can see that it would qualify as probable cause for a search.

NorCalDustin
06-08-2011, 10:37 PM
The permit to carry a firearm means that you have no current wants or warrants and that any firearm you may be in possession of is clearly and demonstrably legal. Therefor you've now blown an officer's arguments that he had probable cause to believe a crime was occurring absent something very else.

-Gene

That's awesome!!

lgv800r
06-09-2011, 6:34 AM
My one and only dealing with an LEO in 12 years of carrying a CCW was just last month.
Details-
Me- rural country road in Sutter county
LEO- CHP coming at me 1/4 mile away lights me up, I pull over before SHE even gets to me. She approaches my window and asks if I know how fast I was going, at this point I have no idea and guess 74 she laughs and says you're close you were going 76 can I please see your license and registration. I hand all my crap including my CCW permit and tell her that I am carrying a firearm. She says Oh, well lets look at the firearm, she asks me to unload it and hand it to her and I comply, she checks serial number of the firearm against the permit hands back to me and says I can put it away. She walks back to her car and in 20 seconds comes back. Hands everything back and says I'm not going to give you a ticket because you may have to be my back up out here one day. She then tells me I need to slow down, I ask her can you drive slow on this road?(not a car in sight and a road way in perfect shape) She replies I don't have to..........
A very pretty young lady I might add

JB-Norcal
06-09-2011, 7:03 AM
lgv800r - you're smooth, you should of asked her for her number so you can call her sometime.
I mean when you are on a roll...

Andy Taylor
06-09-2011, 7:25 AM
lgv800r - you're smooth, you should of asked her for her number so you can call her sometime.
I mean when you are on a roll...


LOL!

tiki
06-09-2011, 7:30 AM
She then tells me I need to slow down, I ask her can you drive slow on this road?(not a car in sight and a road way in perfect shape) She replies I don't have to..........


Ha ha ha ha

EOD Guy
06-09-2011, 8:17 AM
There's no law requiring me to put my hands where the cop can see them, but I do anyway. One of my goals when I rarely get pulled over is to get the cop from DEFCON 5 to DEFCON 2 as quickly as possible. I can't see anyway that can work against me.


Why would you want to put the officer on a higher alert status?:D

tiki
06-09-2011, 8:26 AM
Why would you want to put the officer on a higher alert status?:D

Damn, do I have it backwards? It's been a LONG time since I watched Wargames. :)

Maybe I should have busted out those stupid colors we came up. What is that crap? Condition orange?


Edit: Yep, you are right. Just checked WIKI. Thanks!

lgv800r
06-09-2011, 10:29 AM
lgv800r - you're smooth, you should of asked her for her number so you can call her sometime.
I mean when you are on a roll...

yeah! right. then maybe I could send a picture of my wiener:eek:. I don't think that would go over very well with my wife.

IGOTDIRT4U
06-09-2011, 11:04 AM
1. No you do not have to tell him anything about your firearm or permit. However, the pragmatic thing to do in a traffic stop is to include your permit with your drivers license and registration if you're actually carrying.

2. Presenting a permit actually does the opposite of creating probable cause to search.

-Gene

Gene,

OC permit holders have to notify Officers upon any contact with them. It's a condition placed on the permit holder. But, it is not a state law/reg. You are correct in that. It's a county by county thing.

lgv800r
06-09-2011, 11:19 AM
Gene,

OC permit holders have to notify Officers upon any contact with them. It's a condition placed on the permit holder. But, it is not a state law/reg. You are correct in that. It's a county by county thing.

If I carry in OC but my permit is out of another county do I somehow have to know that I need to notify an OC LEO

paul0660
06-09-2011, 11:24 AM
If I carry in OC but my permit is out of another county do I somehow have to know that I need to notify an OC LEO

No, you don't have to notify. Your issuing authority's rules apply, not OC's. Depending on the level of the interaction, I probably would.