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View Full Version : AR with 22LR conversion kit... fixed mag still required?


enchantor
12-15-2006, 11:11 PM
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jumbopanda
12-15-2006, 11:32 PM
Well here's the thing, you can have a detachable magazine and any number of "evil features" that you want on a rimfire rifle. However, if you're using a conversion kit on a centerfire AR, you're taking somewhat of a risk. Just by removing the conversion kit, you have created an assault weapon. But one could also argue that a pistol grip, removed or installed, can make the difference between a legal rifle and an assault weapon so it might be a moot point.

As for Ciener kits, I hear that they work fine, but if you ever have a problem with one, expect to be yelled at and called names by the manufacturer. They have very very poor customer service.

bwiese
12-15-2006, 11:35 PM
I have changed my opinion on 22LR AR conversions.

If the rifle, as assembled, doesn't have direct, installed ability to fire centerfire, it is not covered by SB23.

You could even have the 223 bbl installed instead of the more accurate 22LR barrel.

It's simply not a semiauto centerfire rifle w/detachable magazine, and to make it into one would require a 'construction'.

And when you extend this thinking further - I know I have preached otherwise, and you should generally be wary - an open magwell pistol gripped receiver is not a complete semiauto centerfire rifle w/detachable magazine. This is a case where the complete rifle is not = to the receiver. Having a 22LR kit would be a rational reason to have a pistolgripped open magwell receiver.

The only time the fixed mag needs to be installed is if it's a centerfire.

I think this issue will be discussed in the future...

megavolt121
12-15-2006, 11:40 PM
I think this issue will be discussed in the future...

Bill, you are a bigger tease than a soroity girl on a Thursday night.:p

enchantor
12-16-2006, 7:53 AM
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M24
12-16-2006, 8:35 AM
Ciener kits are lots of fun. Mine has been very reliable (for AR). I would suggest getting a 22lr upper for it. You can use the standard .223 upper, however, they become grossly dirty as you put more rounds down the bbl. I went through a whole 550 value pack one time, and when I got home to clean it, it was a mess. Just some real world experience for you. They are fun little kits.

marklbucla
12-16-2006, 10:37 AM
What concerns me about it are the markings on the receiver.

Suppose you had a receiver that said 5.56 or .223, or any other centerfire caliber. Even if it had the Ciener kit installed, is it a centerfire carbine/rifle with a conversion installed, or is it a true .22LR free of SB23? You could make an argument for it either way. I think the question is what determines what caliber the gun is? Is it the original intent when it left the factory? What caliber it's set up to shoot right now? What the gun is marked?

I'd definitely feel okay using it if it was a dedicated .22LR upper, OLL, NOT marked with a centerfire caliber, and probably even permanently attaching the upper with a rivet or something.

Bill, what's made you change your mind on this matter?

|-007-|
12-16-2006, 2:47 PM
I have nothing profound to add, but I plan on getting a Ciener kit too. I know a person at my range who has one, and he says it is amazingly accuracy with his .223 barrel, and I've witnessed it. Just be sure to clean it.

Personally, I will not lock the magazine while using the .22lr kit. I understand the constructive possession argument, but I think it is safer to operate the rifle the way it was intended to be- with a detachable magazine rather than breaking it open every 10 rds. Out at the range, that's the most important thing, and I don't use my rifle anywhere besides the range. Plus, I have a Mega lower that says "CAL. MULTI," so the only 5.56mm/.223 marking on my rifle is on the barrel.

And honestly, a rangemaster would be pretty unreasonable to see a problem with that setup and do something about it. I don't feel like officers are out to get me on this issue, or even the OLL issue. I believe that if I use my rifle at the range safely, there's no reason I should be punished.

mscales5
12-16-2006, 3:18 PM
A AR with a .22 conversion is NOT a AW and is not subject to the fixed magazine law. Now it the hard part. From what I can gather, once you register a gun as a AW it IS a AW according to CA DOJ. I doubt that you would get into trouble for doing the conversion and using a detachable mag but who knows anymore. I have not gotten a direct answer from DOJ about this it does seem that they want it to be fixed. Now, it you take a OLL receiver and build a .22 out of it then it is NOT a AW and you can have a detachable mag. ALso, a couple years ago a guy tried to transfer a registered AW that had been converted to .22lr. I called DOJ and was told that once that receiver was registered as a AW it could not be transfered because it was now a registered AW. So, choose wisely grasshopper.

Stanze
12-16-2006, 3:24 PM
IMO and YMMv. OLL receivers are NOT AR SERIES lower receivers in the context of CA law(not banned by make and model).

So, a .22LR build is perfectly acceptable IMO because you built a legal .22LR from a OLL rifle receiver, no different than if you bought a 10/22 receiver and built that up. Only difference is that the OLL looks similiar, ok identical to a banned weapon.

Of course, there's no test case and even if there was, you can pretty much get hassled/arrested/confiscated for anything in our great state.:rolleyes:

enchantor
12-16-2006, 3:39 PM
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marklbucla
12-16-2006, 4:39 PM
This is ridiculous! I feel like I have to jump through my *** just to go have some innocent fun at the local target range.
Reply With Quote

Well, that's just one of the many prices you'll have to pay for perfect weather and living relatively near a beach.

pacificcoast
12-16-2006, 8:03 PM
what happens though once you remove the .22 upper receiver from the lower receiver (say to break it down to put it in a hard case as many do)? that lower receiver then has an open magazine well as well as a pistol grip (it may very well even be labled 5.56). is that to say the upper receiver dictates what caliber the rifle is? and not whats written on the lower receiver? so if a lower receiver is separated from an upper receiver then it has no caliber correspondence and therefore can't be considered an AW even though it has the features of one? its all a very confusing situation.

marklbucla
12-16-2006, 8:05 PM
Yeah, a lot of this stuff is new territory. It's left all up to speculation until someone becomes a test case, I guess.

trouble
12-17-2006, 2:30 PM
I have a Mega lower marked "Caliber Multi" waiting for a dedicated .22lr upper. As treelogger said, that's a pretty good start of proving your intent is for the rifle... and that you went out of your way to get one not stamped .223/5.56. From all I've read, if you're going to be doing a lot of plinking you're eventually going to do some damage to your .223 fast twist barrel if not just gunk it up.

There are plenty of pistol grip open magwell rimfire rifles for sale.... so that point is not under debate... it's how quickly or even what's the possibility that it could be converted to centerfire. Personally, I'd prefer to err way on the side of caution.

enchantor
12-18-2006, 1:38 PM
The previous post brings up a good question, will the 22LR kit damage my .223 upper? I do plan on using it pretty heavily (500 or more rounds per week) I don't care about cleaning it, so making it dirty is not a concern for me, just actual physical damage.
Also, if I do decide to fix the mag just to avoid any possible confusion, will the Prince-50 style kit work, or does the kit render the prince-50 inoperable?

I appreciate all the input!

jumbopanda
12-18-2006, 2:45 PM
The previous post brings up a good question, will the 22LR kit damage my .223 upper? I do plan on using it pretty heavily (500 or more rounds per week) I don't care about cleaning it, so making it dirty is not a concern for me, just actual physical damage.
Also, if I do decide to fix the mag just to avoid any possible confusion, will the Prince-50 style kit work, or does the kit render the prince-50 inoperable?

I appreciate all the input!

I don't think there will be physical damage, but from what I've heard, it's a PAIN to clean because the gas tube gets gunked up. Just get a dedicated .22 upper if you're gonna shoot that much.

marklbucla
12-18-2006, 3:24 PM
They say that you can just shoot a .223 round through it to clear out the gas system.

enchantor
12-18-2006, 3:25 PM
Sounds like it might be a good idea... Anyone else have input on heavy usage of a 22lr kit on a .223 upper?

grammaton76
12-18-2006, 5:39 PM
I don't have any input on it, other than to say I like going the dedicated-upper route personally. The V-22 is really nice...

enchantor
12-18-2006, 10:14 PM
Where's a good place to buy that?

brassburnz
12-18-2006, 11:02 PM
Back during the "frenzy" days of the OLL's, I passed on buying a dedicated .22 rimfire upper because I thought I'd have to keep the mag fixed and feed it from the top. Can you imagine what a pain in the butt it would be to have to load it that way!

My STAG lower says .223 and it was DROS'ed as .223, but who's to say that's what it will be. My intent from the get go was to build a .22 rimfire I could shoot indoors. The search for a .22 rimfire upper is on! Any suggestions?

Randy
NRA Life Member

marklbucla
12-18-2006, 11:35 PM
I went with the DPMS Post Ban M4 style upper. I love it, but the mags can be hard to find at times.

grammaton76
12-20-2006, 6:10 PM
My intent from the get go was to build a .22 rimfire I could shoot indoors. The search for a .22 rimfire upper is on! Any suggestions?

CZ V-22 upper. Only cost like $190ish, and it's pretty much impossible to remove the upper from the lower without tools.

http://www.cheapspeech.com/Pics/Guns/Collection/RangeSet/200607//s_dsc07180.jpg