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View Full Version : CA FFLs with 'dead' non-Rostered handgun inventory - convert and sell 'em!!


bwiese
06-07-2011, 4:39 PM
In my post yesterday,http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=441766I further clarified methods thru which one legally acquires various non-Rostered handguns via Roster-exempt single-action revolver single-shot pistol conversions

We've also now moved to NOT insist an FFL07 is required for such "drop-in" conversions, if the conversion is essentially akin to 'cleaning breakdown' and there's no machining, etc. on the handgun itself and a replacement extended bbl is used, things are fine. 12133PC Roster exemptions subtract these guns out from the whole "chapter" of unsafe handgun laws in 12125PC et seq. convert such guns to Roster-exempt dimensionally-compliant single shot pistols or dimensonlly-compliant single-action revolvers for resale to individual nonprohibited Californians.

Key things to again note:

Guns that are C&R/50+ yrs old are Roster-exempt anyway.
.
Please remember to not mix the dimensional requirements for the two Roster-exempt configurations:
.

[B]single-action revolver: 5 rounds minimum, 3" min. bbl length, 7.5" min overall length;
.
single-shot pistol: round stored only in chamber, 6" min bbl length, 10.5" min overall length;

(AR/AK-pattern pistols generally exceed the minimum lengths without special treatment needed.)


[.
Aside from Roster matters, individuals & FFLs are generally free to convert their handguns to any other
legal form - caliber changes, barrel length changes, rimfire to/from centerfire status, single-action to/from
double action status, etc.

One should NOT convert to, or have their handgun transition through, any illegal status under either or both
CA and Federal law - such as assault weapon status, SBR/SBS (short barrel rifle or shotgun), machinegun,
or 'unconventional pistol'.
.
The buyer of a 'specialty' single-shot pistol or single-action revolver is thus free to convert or revert it to
any legal more preferable status - either himself, or he can return to the FFL from whom he acquired this
handgun for gunsmithing services, barrel swap, etc.

[Inquiries by others - either official or from 'nosy people' - about workflow details in rendering Roster-exempt
status to a given firearm may possibly be trolling for details of prospective temporary illegal transitions during
such conversions!!! Watch your a**.]
.
At least for now, conversions to Roster-exempt configurations should be done before starting DROS process.
.
Resultant reconfigured guns do need to pass a rational 'smell test': the gun should be safe and 'reasonable' -
i.e., not just operate for one or two rounds, but be really capable of repeated sustained operation in the new
configuration (that is, user doesn't cut himself loading or unloading, the changes don't risk the gun blowing up,
there's no risk to the shooter or bystanders, etc.)
.
Barrels extended with welded-on tubing/pipe extensions should be inspected for concentricity/linearity, and lack
of internal obstructions - easily checked with caliber-specific brass or Delrin rods. The inside diameter of the
extension ideally is significantly larger than the actual caliber just for paranoia's sake.
.
Extensions added to attain Roster-exempt single-shot pistol minimum barrel length of 6" should be permanent
(i.e., welded) so the barrel is considered "one piece" instead of a barrel and a separate extension. Whatever
extensions added to a barrel already at min. 6" length to achieve the 10.5" min. overall length do not have to
be 'permanent'.

[It's unlikely that graceful barrel extensions - in conjunction with a single-action conversion - can be done for
revolvers with under 3" barrel length without finish damage, etc. There is a chance that 3+" "bore insert sleeves"
for 22LR or perhaps 25ACP could be used in big-bore revolvers - this is more an engineering issue than a regulatory
one.]
.
'Single shot' status means the only round in the gun able to be fired is in the chamber, and no other round(s) stored
in the gun can move into the chamber (except via an external path and by manual means only). From a practical
standpoint, this means no other rounds should be storable in the gun except in the chamber.
.
Typically zero-round magazines (or 'blue gun' training magazines) or sleds' on AR pistols are used to achive this; an
alternative is to use ultralong grip screws that block the magazine well from accepting any magzine. If a magazine
or filler mag or sled is used, some sort of non-manually activated 'mag lock' or screwdown device replacing the
standard magazine catch needs to be utilized (or, the grip screws could actually pierce the zero-round magazine,
restricting its manual non-tool removal).
.
Resultant single-action revolvers should be tested for "hammer push-off". (Hell, every gun with an exposed hammer
should be checked for that - including factory-new guns!)

Successful conversion of revolvers to single-action status - that is, a separate hammer cocking and a separate
(trigger) firing action required by user - should also be verified before DROSing.
.
If you have doubts about barrel lengths or overall lengths, USE A DAMNED RULER; don't eyeball it. It would be
"Very Un-good" for an FFL to find out he's been selling guns that were not exempt due to even a minor error in
length guesstimation. Remember that lengths are measured parallel to the bore, and barrel length includes the
portion, say, screwed into the frame.
.
Barrel length used to achieve Roster-exempt status should be kept somewhat *below* 16" to avoid any remote
risk of SBR drama if/when a shorter barrel is (re)installed.
.
Non-Rostered handguns which haven't yet been modified into Roster-exempt status should NOT be displayed for
ordinary sale and, if displayed, should be marked as "LEO Only Sales".
.
From a business standpoint, it probably doesn't make sense to harm handguns that have, say, unique/expensive
barrels with drop-in replacements not readily avaible in aftermarket, or non-Rostered snubnosed revolvers that -
despite prospective single-action conversion - cannot readily/gracefully meet the minimum barrel or overall length
required for that exemption. These guns may still be best sold outside CA via, say, GunBroker - unless a buyer has
a special hankering for a given gun and is willing to pay for a special barrel.
.
The above process DOES make sense for guns with ready supply of low-cost, drop-in replacement barrels such as
various 1911s (cheap long barrels are out there!), Glocks, Sigs, certain Berettas, etc. Having a 'barrel inventory'
for these latter guns is reasonably low-cost and allows future trade in such exempt non-Rostered firearms and
avoids tying up multiple sales of a given style of gun waiting for a given exemption barrel.

Let 'er rip!


Oh - freedom isn't free.... won't say much more, but: http://www.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/donate


[And as a CRPA Board member. I would be very remiss to not also mention CRPA membership and the CRPA Foundation as well. Do
please remember the 12133PC single-shot exemption that became active 2006 (SB269, Bob Dutton, R-Rancho Cucamonga) was
driven by CRPA/NRA effort !!]
http://www.crpa.org/_e/dept/06/The_CRPA_Foundation.htm
(http://www.crpa.org/_e/dept/06/The_CRPA_Foundation.htm)http://www.crpa.org/dept.aspx?dept_id=01

curtisfong
06-07-2011, 4:57 PM
Stupid question: has anybody NERFd, say, a HK45?

wildhawker
06-07-2011, 5:00 PM
Stupid question: has anybody NERFd, say, a HK45?

NERF and SSE are two totally different animals.

Blackhawk556
06-07-2011, 5:05 PM
****Non-Rostered handguns which haven't yet been modified into Roster-exempt status should NOT be displayed for ordinary sale and, if displayed, should be marked as "LEO Only Sales"****

is this required by law??
I'm pretty sure a shop in Fresno doesn't have a sign up and sells non-rostered guns.

bwiese
06-07-2011, 5:06 PM
Stupid question: has anybody NERFd, say, a HK45?

Please don't NeRF.

However, many Roster-exempt HK45s single-shot pistols have been sold in CA thru various Leadership FFLs.

bwiese
06-07-2011, 5:10 PM
****Non-Rostered handguns which haven't yet been modified into Roster-exempt status should NOT be displayed for ordinary sale and, if displayed, should be marked as "LEO Only Sales"****

is this required by law??


Non-Rostered and nonexempted handguns really shouldn't be advertised/ displayed for regular sale (exception: consignment) due to prohibitions on 'offers or exposes for sale' in 12125. A non-Rostered gun in the display case in which a clerk eventially tells a shopper, "hey I can only sell that gun to LEOs" would likely ulimately pass muster, but it's best to play it safe.

curtisfong
06-07-2011, 5:39 PM
NERF and SSE are two totally different animals.

Sorry for my misunderstanding. I meant SSE, not NeRF (and bweise answered above that they have been sucessfully SSE'd in the past).

curtisfong
06-07-2011, 5:43 PM
Please don't NeRF.

However, many Roster-exempt HK45s single-shot pistols have been sold in CA thru various Leadership FFLs.

Another stupid question: considering the "exposes for sale" etc. problems, how would I go about finding a (local) FFL that would consider such a thing?

morrcarr67
06-07-2011, 5:57 PM
Another stupid question: considering the "exposes for sale" etc. problems, how would I go about finding a (local) FFL that would consider such a thing?

Look at the SSE thread in the handgun section. The first post has all the info.

curtisfong
06-07-2011, 7:09 PM
Thanks. That does indeed answer all my stupid questions ;)

tba02
06-07-2011, 7:10 PM
When do we get to read chapter 3?

NotEnufGarage
06-07-2011, 9:59 PM
How long would an FFL need to sit on inventory for it to be considered 'dead inventory'?

Any issue with an FFL stocking up on say Gen4 Glocks, holding onto them for a few weeks, see that the LEO's just aren't beating a path to his door and the deciding to convert them to SSE and sell them to whomever wants one?

bwiese
06-07-2011, 10:16 PM
How long would an FFL need to sit on inventory for it to be considered 'dead inventory'?

Any issue with an FFL stocking up on say Gen4 Glocks, holding onto them for a few weeks, see that the LEO's just aren't beating a path to his door and the deciding to convert them to SSE and sell them to whomever wants one?

There's no limit either way, I was posting here specifically referring to the loads of old handguns some CA FFLs have hanging about that until now not much could be done with (other than flogging them on GunBroker, auctionArms, etc.)

This is just a CA-focused disposal method for these old guns hanging around.

If you as a regular FFL wanna sell Gen4 Glocks and Guncrafter 1911s, etc. Go get some spare cheap bbls, extend them, order the guns and "single shot" 'em
for Roster exemption per above. There is no wait needed and I am puzzled why you inferred that a wait was required.

morrcarr67
06-08-2011, 7:19 AM
Just a thought. I think everyone here on Calguns should visit thier LGS store and bring them up to speed on this whole idea. I'm sure there are tons of NOS; New Old Stock, guns sitting in the back rooms of your favorite LGS.

This would bring many more guns out for the general public as well as bringing in much needed money for these LGS's.

This also mean that they would not have to consign guns if it was easily converted to Single Shot or Single Action. They could buy used guns from people that need to sell; do the conversion, and resell with out any problems.

Let's get the word out and get ready to spend some money. :43: