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View Full Version : Roster exemption summary/clarifications (single-shot pistol/single-action revolver)


bwiese
06-06-2011, 2:32 PM
Per 12133PC, certain handguns are Roster-exempt. These include:
Single-action Revolvers, capable of holding 5 or more rounds, with 3” minimum barrel length and 7.5”
minimum overall length when assembled.

Single-shot Pistols, with 6” minimum barrel length, and a minimum overall length of 10.5” when assembled.

(lengths measured parallel to bore)
[Some folks casually and mistakenly conflate categories: there's simply NO “single-action exemption” - otherwise all 1911s & Browning Hi-Power pistols would be automagically Roster-exempt! The single-action revolver exemption applies to revolvers only. Similarly, there’s no “single-shot revolver” exemption either!]

Handguns not ordinarily considered single-action revolvers nor single-shot pistols may be converted to such status for regular resale by CA FFLs as 12133PC Roster-exempt handguns.

After a Californian completes the required forms/background check, and leaves the FFL 10 days later with his new handgun, he's then free to modify his new gun into any other legal form. Specifically, he may wish to convert his newly-acquired single-action revolver back to double-action status, or convert his new single-shot pistol back into multi-shot, magazine-fed status. The individual may decide to turn around and reenter the gunshop and have his FFL dealer assist him with gunsmithing services to swap parts.

“Category crossing” should be avoided not only to skirt definitional drama, but because the dimensional & parts-availability issues favor a DA revolver being converted to a Roster-exempt single-action revolver far more gracefully than into a Roster-exempt single-shot pistol – and this generally avoids revolver barrel mangling, too. (The converse is rather obvious: pistols are far more easily converted to single-shot pistol status than into single-action revolver status!)

Use of drop-in parts to modify a handgun does not require an 07 FFL (i.e., a “manufacturing FFL”). Also, while 12125PC has murky wording related to importing “unsafe handguns” for sale, California FFLs are allowed to freely import non-Rostered handguns for prospective LEO sales - and handguns rendered into Roster-exempt status are legal for resale to ordinary Californians too. Note the 12133PC exemptions includes the controlling phrase, “The provisions of this chapter do not apply…”.


Modifying a handgun into another legal handgun configuration is legal.

There are no laws restricting an individual or gunsmith from changing an owner’s handgun in one legal configuration to any other legal configuration. (Regardless of its Roster status or Roster exemption: the Roster is really just a gating function to resale.)

Changes to caliber, barrel length can be made, along with rimfire / centerfire changeovers, conversion between single- & double-action status, and conversion between single-shot vs. repeater status, etc. [However, conversion to any of various prohibited firearm categories such as 12276/12276.1PC 'assault weapon', or short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun, unconventional pistol, etc. must all be avoided! Both Federal and CA laws must be observed.]


California “Roster-exempt” status is NOT achieved without proper “dimensional compliance”.

Whether or not the handgun is already categorized as single-action revolver or single-shot pistol, if the barrel and/or overall lengths (or if under 5 round cylinder for revolvers) are incorrect for that particular 12133PC exemption, then it’s simply not Roster-exempt.

[Certain single-action revolver variants called “Sheriff’s model” or “Storekeeper”, having under-3” barrels (typically ~2.75” long), do NOT qualify as Roster-exempt single-action revolvers. However, such guns may be separately Roster-exempt if they separately fall into the C&R/antique category, which will not be discussed here.]


The “single-action revolver” Roster exemption does NOT mean “it looks like a cowboy gun” (Colt SAA, Ruger Vaquero, etc).

There are no California statutory/regulatory definitions of “single-action revolver”. Nevertheless, this term is understood across the industry to define revolvers requiring the user to perform a separate cocking action, followed by separate trigger pull action, to fire a chambered round. It does NOT mean the gun 'looks like a cowboy gun'.

[What particular user action causes the cylinder to revolve is immaterial to this definition and varies by revolver architecture. Differences between the “loading gate” design common to cowboy-style Colt SAA-pattern revolvers vs. the swing-out cylinder/yoke assembly implemented on modern revolvers are irrelevant as to actual single-action status.]

Of particular note, Smith & Wesson shipped some Model 14-3 revolvers in single-action configuration in the 1970s; given their size, they are Roster-exempt. These revolvers look like modern double-action revolvers but require the separate, independent cocking and firing actions of single-action revolvers. (In this particular gun, the cylinder rotates due to the trigger pull, not hammer cocking – differing from Colt SAA-pattern revolvers, where the cocking action is the one that rotates the cylinder.) ]

Double-action revolvers – depending on brand, model and internal architecture – can be converted to single-action operation by simple parts removal, usually involving the “D/A sear”. [Care must be taken to not damage the revolver’s finish and knife-edge sideplate contours in such work; proper “gunsmith” hollow-ground screwdrivers must be used to not damage screw heads.]

Removal of the “DA sear” from S&W revolvers’ internal lockwork renders single-action operation; this is likely applicable to Taurus and Rossi revolvers as well (not verified). (There are reliable reports that similar work can be done to modern Colt double-action revolvers such as Pythons also.)

Those performing such work should ensure, after parts removal and reassembly, that the revolver will indeed be safe to operate (especially regarding passing several “hammer push off” tests), and that the gun indeed operates ONLY in single-action revolver mode and CAN'T operate in double-action mode. The gun should otherwise operate normally, safely, and reliably to “pass the smell test” as a useable handgun.


The “single-shot pistol” Roster exemption does NOT mean the gun has to look like a T/C Contender, etc.

“Single-shot pistol” status is neither defined in statute nor regulation. It is understood across the industry to mean the handgun, as it stands, can only contain and fire one round. Any reloading of the gun involves the user having to manually load another round stored somewhere else in a position that cannot feed into the chamber.

The only storage capacity in a 12133PC Roster-exempt single-shot pistol should be in its chamber: the gun as a whole must have a maximum capacity of one round. To achieve this status, a zero-round magazine is typically affixed to gun, or the magwell can be blocked from accepting any magazine-like devices and preventing any ammo from entering into chamber.

A zero-round magazine can either be a dummy “blue gun” training/filler magazine, or a regular magazine whose follower travel is blocked to zero round capacity. (The follower of such a magazine may need to “float” a bit to allow graceful slide movement.) Another alternative – especially on AR-pattern pistols – is to use a “sled” normally designed to work with longer rounds (80gr VLDs.)

Whatever zero-round magazine/filler is used, it should be locked in place with some sort of screw-down or “maglock” device replacing the magazine release button, such that a user cannot manually drop the magazine and must use a tool. (This also keeps the gun outside of 12276.1PC assault weapons status for guns such as AR/AK pistols.) This could be as simple as a recessed Allen screw & nut in a 1911, or a junked mag catch cut down so far that a tool is needed to push it in. The famous BulletButton and RaddLock devices common in CA-legal AR/AK rifle & pistol implementations also serve well in these guns.

[One unique implementation involves using long grip screws penetrating thru the magazine well into the screw bosses of the opposite grip panel. No magazine can load in such a pistol, nor can ammo feed from inside. Care should be taken such that ammo cannot enter and fall into the chamber if gun held upside down.]

Achieving dimensionally-compliant Roster-exempt single-shot pistol status may be harder or easier and depend on the make/type of pistol, and cost/availability of spare barrels. For typical pistols, several inches of steel pipe (whose inner diameter is wider than the caliber!) can be welded to the barrel end to get the min. 6” barrel length. Close inspection should be made to ensure safe conditions (concentricity/linearity of bore across both segments, no internal bore obstructions, etc.). In other cases, long aftermarket barrels are already available – specifically, for 1911-style 45ACP pistols.

Permanence of attachment of any required barrel extension is needed to achieve the required 6” minimum single-shot barrel length (otherwise, it's considerable as separate barrel and separate extension). However, any additional length needed to get to the 10.5” min. overall length doesn't (in theory) need to be permanently attached.

Generally, for AR/AK-style pistols – and other pistols of similar caliber and “magazine-forward” topology – the minimum compliance lengths are already achieved, and no barrel modifications are necessary..

[N.B. Note that barrel length should stay under the 16” boundary – this is to avoid any risk of crossing outside defined “handgun” territory and avoiding related SBR complications when attempting to return to handgun status.]


Roster-exempt handgun conversions can be used to avoid face-to-face PPT requirements, and function as a workaround to Roster issues when the seller/supplier doesn't hold a California ID.

DOJ BoF is (illegally) requiring source parties in PPTs to have CA IDs. Transferring a Roster-exempt handgun via a CA FFL avoids this PPT requirement since the gun can transition through CA FFL regular inventory.

Note that transfer fees are no longer the state-mandated PPT amount and can be whatever the FFL dealer chooses to charge - since PPT rules are not applicable.

Rendering a handgun into 12133PC Roster-exempt status also allows it to be shipped & transferred across California to another Californian’s local FFL, without the owners having to meet at the FFL at the same time, etc.


Roster-exempt conversions must be “safe and sane.”

Any conversions shouldn't result in dangerous situations (i.e, such poor attachment of barrel extension there are bore obstructions ) – and shouldn't result in a gun really only usable once or twice at best (i.e., you cut your hand extracting spent rounds, etc.)

Extended barrels' bores need checking for free movement of a caliber-specific test rod. Revolvers need checking for instances of dangerous “hammer push-off” (a wise test on any gun with exposed hammer anyway!)

Roster-exempt conversions should produce a repeatably usable handgun not presenting danger to either the user or those nearby, and must “pass the smell” test as a rational, useable handgun.

bwiese
06-06-2011, 2:45 PM
That should cover things pretty well, I had to be a bit terse to get it under 12,500 characters.
Prob. need to ask Kes to bump my limit a bit more.

loose_electron
06-06-2011, 2:49 PM
Its a good summary! Lets get it in the Sticky collection!

missiondude
06-06-2011, 2:49 PM
Pretty Damn good for a work in progress. Thanks for spelling this out so completely. I plan to use this info very soon...

morrcarr67
06-06-2011, 4:22 PM
Great job Bill. Thank you very much. I do have a couple of questions for you Sir.



Use of drop-in parts to modify a handgun does not require an 07 FFL (i.e., a “manufacturing FFL”). Also, while 12125PC has murky wording related to importing “unsafe handguns” for sale, California FFLs are allowed to freely import non-Rostered handguns for prospective LEO sales - and handguns rendered into Roster-exempt status are legal for resale to ordinary Californians too. Also, the 12133PC exemptions includes the controlling phrase, “The provisions of this chapter do not apply…”.


Modifying a handgun into another legal handgun configuration is legal.

There are no laws restricting an individual or gunsmith from changing an owner’s handgun in one legal configuration to any other legal configuration. (This is regardless of its Roster status or exemption; the Roster is really just a gating function to resale.)



What qualifies as "Drop in Parts"?

ie, Does this 7" barrel (http://e-sarcoinc.com/451911barrel7roto.aspx) from Sarco count as a "drop in part"?

If so does that mean that ANY FFL (01 or 07) can install this and an extra long grip screw into a 1911 and make it a Single Shot Compliant Pistol?

And, does that also mean that ANY FFL (01 or 07) could remove the DA Sear from a dimensionally compliant DA Revolver to change it to a Single Action Roster Exempt Revolver?

bwiese
06-06-2011, 4:32 PM
Great job Bill. Thank you very much. I do have a couple of questions for you Sir.

What qualifies as "Drop in Parts"?

ie, Does this 7" barrel (http://e-sarcoinc.com/451911barrel7roto.aspx) from Sarco count as a "drop in part"?


If the *gun* itself doesn't need smithing, finishing, etc. I think you're fine.

The replacement barrel itself is 'parts is parts' and is often being modded as an inventoried item so the particpating FFL has a fleet of barrels out on loan.


If so does that mean that ANY FFL (01 or 07) can install this and an extra long grip screw into a 1911 and make it a Single Shot Compliant Pistol?


And, does that also mean that ANY FFL (01 or 07) could remove the DA Sear from a dimensionally compliant DA Revolver to change it to a Single Action Roster Exempt Revolver?

My prior concerns about certain matters relating to 'unsafe handguns' were prudent caution, but appear to be unnecessary. The 12133 exemptions contain text, "The provisions of this chapter shall not apply..." which nullify these.

Bottom line:
- comply with proper dimensions for a given exempt gun type
- the gun must rationally work in new form, and not be dangerous

morrcarr67
06-06-2011, 4:40 PM
My prior concerns about certain matters relating to 'unsafe handguns' were prudent caution, but appear to be unnecessary. The 12133 exemptions contain text, "The provisions of this chapter shall not apply..." which nullify these.

Bottom line:
- comply with proper dimensions for a given exempt gun type
- the gun must rationally work in new form, and not be dangerous




Very nice :cool: thank you for this info.

supersonic
06-06-2011, 4:52 PM
I guess I will add my obligatory Bravo, Bill!! right here in this space. Plus, as per above, this is now for future advertising.:D

aklover_91
06-06-2011, 4:57 PM
Just wish more FFL's did single shots, now.

microwaveguy
06-06-2011, 5:21 PM
First ....... thanks Bill. I have my eye on an off roster 1911 :cool2:

Just wish more FFL's did single shots, now.

I see this happening / evolving like OLL's where it is slow to start but a year or two from now you'll be able to walk into a lot more dealers and get what you want even if it is off roster. :D:D:D

Hell there maybe a whole cottage industry supplying the parts kits and doing the mods on kitchen tables ........hummm maybe my new business venture :D

Saigon1965
06-06-2011, 5:29 PM
Cool - Took advantage and got a NRF pistol last week -

hoffmang
06-06-2011, 5:36 PM
*nudges those with wiki access*

This would make a great CGF wiki article where it can be longer than the character limit :)

-Gene

G1500
06-06-2011, 5:41 PM
Sweet writeup.

Librarian
06-06-2011, 6:11 PM
*nudges those with wiki access*

This would make a great CGF wiki article where it can be longer than the character limit :)

-Gene

Well, get Bill to sign up ....

:rolleyes:

No, Bill, if you'll attach the complete version to a PM, I'll get it up on the Wiki.

But we can hope the necessity for such an article will diminish at least in this decade.

EBR Works
06-06-2011, 6:25 PM
Nice writeup Bill. Thanks for this.

G1500
06-06-2011, 6:42 PM
But we can hope the necessity for such an article will diminish at least in this decade.

I hope the LCM and AW articles can be put into the [ARCHIVE] section soon as well.

:D

shooting4life
06-06-2011, 8:22 PM
Great article! Should help with getting some smiths in from out of state. I have already had a couple sent in under the single action revolver exemptions. I have actually purchased N and K frame hammers that I have already removed the double action sear so I can ship it to the seller and they just have to drop them in.
Here is a picture of a regular s&w hammer, the double action sear is just below the firing pin. (looks like a little black lever)
http://i630.photobucket.com/albums/uu30/shooting4life/IMG_2870.jpg
Here is a single action hammer kit, you can see that it has no double action sear
http://i630.photobucket.com/albums/uu30/shooting4life/d82d3ae1.jpg


Here is one of the revolvers I have had sent in from out of state, a 625 3 inch (bottom) oh the possibilities.
http://i630.photobucket.com/albums/uu30/shooting4life/c3d81a88.jpg

wash
06-06-2011, 8:32 PM
I agree with most that has been said but it's kind of ironic that you have to make a gun "safe" to fit in a "roster of not unsafe handguns" exempt category because being exempt should let you sell an unsafe handgun...

If you only intend to keep your handgun in an exempt status long enough to legally transfer it through an FFL, passing a smell test seems silly because the whole law stinks.

bwiese
06-06-2011, 9:17 PM
If you only intend to keep your handgun in an exempt status long enough to legally transfer it through an FFL, passing a smell test seems silly because the whole law stinks.

Yes, but we don't want to screw the relevant FFL over in case of audit or "test buyer", etc. If the gun is regarded as somehow nonfunctional then the above work risk being invalid and the FFL risk having transferred a non-Rostered, non-exempt firearm to a nonexempt buyer - which means trouble.

bwiese
06-06-2011, 9:20 PM
Wow, I get to threadjack my own thread...

Shooting4Life, re: your pictured S&W wheelguns above - the upper one w/ ~4" barrel has some wonderful aftermarket grips. What brand grips are those?

BTW, thank you for the helpful, illustrative picture of the hammer with the DA sear identified.

Lagduf
06-06-2011, 9:31 PM
Am I correct in my understanding that C&R Handguns are also roster exempt?

bwiese
06-06-2011, 9:44 PM
Am I correct in my understanding that C&R Handguns are also roster exempt?

Yep - Roster exempt if 50 yrs olds or "in the ATF C&R book".

Blackhawk556
06-06-2011, 9:50 PM
So this is just clarifying the whole single shot thing right? 07 FFLs are still the only ones who can do this?

bigcalidave
06-06-2011, 10:17 PM
Thank you for the great writeup Bill!! Answers a lot of the common questions. Lets get this out on the interwebz asap!

bwiese
06-06-2011, 11:23 PM
So this is just clarifying the whole single shot thing right? 07 FFLs are still the only ones who can do this?

No, as I wronte above that was product initial conservatism. For parts that drop in the gun without the *gun* needing machinework, this is fine: the gun is already "manufactured".

Given wording of 12133 exemptions bypassing the whole "chapter", plus the fact that CA FFLs can order guns for sale to LEOs, and that Roster exemptions allow such handguns to be sold without regard to 12125... et seq, we're good.

Now, an 07 would be required if a (pistol or virgin) RECEIVER is built into a pistol - 1911 frame into full 45ACP pistol, or OLL AR lower into full AR pistol (ensuring non-AW configuration).

morrcarr67
06-07-2011, 5:11 AM
Hell there maybe a whole cottage industry supplying the parts kits and doing the mods on kitchen tables ........hummm maybe my new business venture :D

I was thinking the same thing. :43:

Ford8N
06-07-2011, 5:30 AM
No, as I wronte above that was product initial conservatism. For parts that drop in the gun without the *gun* needing machinework, this is fine: the gun is already "manufactured".

Given wording of 12133 exemptions bypassing the whole "chapter", plus the fact that CA FFLs can order guns for sale to LEOs, and that Roster exemptions allow such handguns to be sold without regard to 12125... et seq, we're good.

Now, an 07 would be required if a (pistol or virgin) RECEIVER is built into a pistol - 1911 frame into full 45ACP pistol, or OLL AR lower into full AR pistol (ensuring non-AW configuration).

I just curious. What if a person was to order an AK pistol receiver using the 07 FFL's license and that person assembled the the rest of the parts themselves either later or at the 07's shop?

morrcarr67
06-07-2011, 5:47 AM
I just curious. What if a person was to order an AK pistol receiver using the 07 FFL's license and that person assembled the the rest of the parts themselves either later or at the 07's shop?

I don't believe that will work. That's the whole reason you need an 07 FFL for those types of guns. If it was OK for you to build it you wouldn't need to send it to an 07 FFL.

shooting4life
06-07-2011, 8:02 AM
Wow, I get to threadjack my own thread...

Shooting4Life, re: your pictured S&W wheelguns above - the upper one w/ ~4" barrel has some wonderful aftermarket grips. What brand grips are those?

BTW, thank you for the helpful, illustrative picture of the hammer with the DA sear identified.
The upper grips are made by herrett and are very nice rd to sq conversion grips.
The bottom grips are made by Nill. They are pricey but worth it. Never seen a fit tighter than these, can hardly find a seem on the bottom.

bwiese
06-07-2011, 8:22 AM
I just curious. What if a person was to order an AK pistol receiver using the 07 FFL's license and that person assembled the the rest of the parts themselves either later or at the 07's shop?

"later" ==> impossible, since that'd mean the bare receiver was DROSed to the individual, and that can't be done (except thru PPT, consignment, intrafamily, inheritance routes).

"at the shop" ==> if the FFL07 were comfortable with you doing the work there, I guess it's OK. The gun would prob have to be assembled/operational shape before DROS starts to keep any DOJ audit happy (not really legally enforceable but we don't want FFLs entangled with drama).

I really don't see what this buys anyone...

shooting4life
06-07-2011, 8:26 AM
"later" ==> impossible, since that'd mean the bare receiver was DROSed to the individual, and that can't be done (except thru PPT, consignment, intrafamily, inheritance routes).

"at the shop" ==> if the FFL07 were comfortable with you doing the work there, I guess it's OK. The gun would prob have to be assembled/operational shape before DROS starts to keep any DOJ audit happy (not really legally enforceable but we don't want FFLs entangled with drama).

I really don't see what this buys anyone...

With the single action revolver work around above it is something that I could do at the ffl's shop with about 10 minutes of time and a couple of handtools.
This would be easier than trying to get people to do it from out of state as I am having a success rate of about 1 in 15 requests right now.

bwiese
06-07-2011, 8:32 AM
With the single action revolver work around above it is something that I could do at the ffl's shop with about 10 minutes of time and a couple of handtools. This would be easier than trying to get people to do it from out of state as I am having a success rate of about 1 in 15 requests right now.

Let 'er rip. I would again just say the gun should be modded/working before DROS process starts.

Spelunker
06-07-2011, 8:34 AM
This topic is the whole reason I joined calguns, which in turn turned me into a gun nut. Thanks Bill.

shooting4life
06-07-2011, 8:37 AM
Let 'er rip. I would again just say the gun should be modded/working before DROS process starts.

I'll talk to my ffl about it and see if he is game. Will report back in a few days. If he is willing I don't know what my bank account is going to look like. Might have to finally get the c&r and COE to by pass the 1 in 30 rule.

Munk
06-07-2011, 10:06 AM
I think the post should be added as a guide, right next to the AW flowchart.

Most of this is stuff i've been telling friends/family for quite some time. Having it laid out concisely and clearly like this is nice.

CHS
06-07-2011, 10:09 AM
Cool - Took advantage and got a NRF pistol last week -

NRF is not the same as single-shot/single-action conversion.

NRF is still on hold.

The Gleam
06-07-2011, 11:39 AM
The awesomeness of this awesomely awesome post by Bill is simply awesome. It's been discussed here in bits, and it's sometimes hard to explain (especially to those not even TRYING to understand) but nice to see full explanation in one post. Now, like the FAQ for OLLs I can just point people here. Thanks! :)

Onlyincali
06-07-2011, 12:50 PM
fANTASTIC THREAD! THANK YOU!!!!

I have an older FFL who is NOT up to date with these laws. More importantly however, he is willing to learn and even do certain transfers provided they are LEGAL. He asked me to bring in PROOF of the single action revolver exemption, and also wanted to know where the exemption could be put in the DROS page on the computer, as he looked for it and could not find it.

1. I will print the first page of this and bring it to him.

2. Is there a government website/link I can get the SINGLE ACTION REVOLVER exemption info from so he can see it first hand(IE: not off a random website some kid shows him?)

3. Where in the DROS computer info can he put the exemption? He looked for it and could not find it.


Please excuse my ignorance and his. I am somewhat new to this whole thing, and he is very ignorant to these laws, but he is WILLING TO LEARN. He even said he would call the DOJ to confirm once I show him the paperwork(he doesn't want to call now and sound like an idiot before I show him SOME proof)

bwiese
06-07-2011, 1:12 PM
I have an older FFL who is NOT up to date with these laws. More importantly however, he is willing to learn and even do certain transfers provided they are LEGAL. He asked me to bring in PROOF of the single action revolver exemption, and also wanted to know where the exemption could be put in the DROS page on the computer, as he looked for it and could not find it.
.
.
.
3. Where in the DROS computer info can he put the exemption?
He looked for it and could not find it.



I don't have a DROS screen layout at hand.

How ever he runs a Ruger Blackhawk revolver (which is a non-Rostered exempt factory single-action revolver) or a T/C Contender pistol (which is an exempt single-shot pistol) is also the way he should similarly run these other handguns. I seem to recall there's a note/comment area where you can specify something like "Roster-exempt single action revolver".

Other FFLs here can speak up with procedural details - as these are used to sell single-shot off-list AR/AK pistols, etc.


2. Is there a government website/link I can get the SINGLE ACTION REVOLVER exemption info from so he can see it first hand (IE: not off
a random website some kid shows him?)12133PC can be found near bottom of http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/12125.php

Quoted here, important items boldfaced/emphasized below by me.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
12133 PC:

(a) The provisions of this chapter shall not apply to a single-action revolver that has at least a 5-cartridge
capacity with a barrel length of not less than three inches, and meets any of the following specifications: (1) Was originally manufactured prior to 1900 and is a curio or relic, as defined in
Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations.
.
(2) Has an overall length measured parallel to the barrel of at least 7-1/2 inches when the handle,
frame or receiver, and barrel are assembled.

(3) Has an overall length measured parallel to the barrel of at least 7-1/2 inches when the handle, frame
or receiver, and barrel are assembled and that is currently approved for importation into the United States
pursuant to the provisions of paragraph (3) of subsection (d) of Section 925 of Title 18 of the United States
Code.
(b) The provisions of this chapter shall not apply to a single-shot pistol with a barrel length of not less than six inches
and that has an overall length of at least 10-1/2 inches when the handle, frame or receiver, and barrel are assembled.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Please excuse my ignorance and his. I am somewhat new to this whole thing, and he is very ignorant to these laws, but he is WILLING TO LEARN. He even said he would call the DOJ to confirm once I show him the paperwork(he doesn't want to call now and sound like an idiot before I show him SOME proof)

He most likely will not get a favorable or intelligible answer from DOJ.
They don't like this, and would like to stop it but they can't (other than stall and verbally issue inaccurate info).

Anything the DOJ says needs to be gotten IN WRITING. They will dispense FUD (fear, uncertainty, doubt) otherwise on the phone to an ordinary FFL.

(However they have already audited/inspected a variety of FFLs doing 'single shot' etc. Roster exemptions, so it's moot).

It's irrelevant, however, since it's legal. CGF backs this.

CHS
06-07-2011, 1:53 PM
3. Where in the DROS computer info can he put the exemption? He looked for it and could not find it.


There are only 4 DROS options:

Long Gun
Handgun
Police Officer
C&R/Olympic Pistol/Exempt

If he can't find the giant button that takes up 1/4 of the screen, then perhaps its time for eye surgery? :)

CHS
06-07-2011, 1:56 PM
There are only 4 DROS options:

Long Gun
Handgun
Police Officer
C&R/Olympic Pistol/Exempt

If he can't find the giant button that takes up 1/4 of the screen, then perhaps its time for eye surgery? :)

Ooops. 6 options. Forgot about PPT's and "review/correct/cancel".

Page 25: https://dros.appsolgrp.com/wpsd/manual.pdf

Ford8N
06-07-2011, 4:39 PM
"later" ==> impossible, since that'd mean the bare receiver was DROSed to the individual, and that can't be done (except thru PPT, consignment, intrafamily, inheritance routes).

"at the shop" ==> if the FFL07 were comfortable with you doing the work there, I guess it's OK. The gun would prob have to be assembled/operational shape before DROS starts to keep any DOJ audit happy (not really legally enforceable but we don't want FFLs entangled with drama).

I really don't see what this buys anyone...


Ok, Thanks for the clarification. I would do the work in an 07's shop, I can knock out a shootable AK in about 3 hours. But this also raises another question. When does a bare pistol registered receiver become a gun? When you can discharge a cartridge or when all the pieces are put on it, like the stock or maybe when it is barreled. In other words, where is the line? Thanks for all your work for the Cause.. :patriot:

bwiese
06-07-2011, 11:25 PM
Ok, Thanks for the clarification. I would do the work in an 07's shop, I can knock out a shootable AK in about 3 hours.


Cool.

But this also raises another question. When does a bare pistol registered receiver become a gun?

I don't see how this is relevant to the subject at hand, and in the case of an AK the receiver may not be 'anything' other than a virgin receiver when arriving at your 07FFLs - it's prob logged in the books as a virgin receiver.
Such a virgin receiver becomes a pistol when it's assembled into a pistol, and the 07FFL is gonna have to deal with the excise tax issues as such.

If the receiver is already a pistol receiver due to history, prior paperwork, etc. it becomes a full fledged pistol when assembled.

In any case, it's assembled as a single-shot pistol [per all the details in my topmost post in the thread] BEFORE it's DROSed to you. The fact that you work on it in his shop under his supervision is immaterial.

morrcarr67
06-08-2011, 10:00 AM
OK. I have another question.

AR style pistols.

I know about the AW rules; mag outside of pistol grip, BB, etc.

If you remove the magazine latch the magwell will not be able to even hold a magzine in place to feed the pistol.

So, would this be enough to satisfy the single shot rule?

Would this be enough to satisfy the AW rule?

EBR Works
06-08-2011, 10:16 AM
OK. I have another question.

AR style pistols.

I know about the AW rules; mag outside of pistol grip, BB, etc.

If you remove the magazine latch the magwell will not be able to even hold a magzine in place to feed the pistol.

So, would this be enough to satisfy the single shot rule?

Would this be enough to satisfy the AW rule?

Unfortunately, no. You could conceivably hold a mag in place with your hand and the gun would feed/function. A mag lock and 0 round sled must be installed for single shot status. The mag lock and 10 round or less mag must be used for AW compliance.
.
.
.
..

morrcarr67
06-08-2011, 10:54 AM
Unfortunately, no. You could conceivably hold a mag in place with your hand and the gun would feed/function. A mag lock and 0 round sled must be installed for single shot status. The mag lock and 10 round or less mag must be used for AW compliance.
.
.
.
..

Yeah, that's what I thought. Just me thinking out loud again.

bwiese
06-08-2011, 1:57 PM
Yeah, that's what I thought. Just me thinking out loud again.

EBRWorks is correct.

On AR/AK-style etc. "forward magwell" pistols or pistols with 'evil features' like threaded bbls installed, the maglock device has a dual function:
(1) it takes the gun out of AW status (no "capacity to accept detach. mag")
(2) lack of acceptance of detachable mag w/locked in filler device = 0 round storage outside of chamber, for "single-shotness".

Bigtime1
06-08-2011, 2:42 PM
I'm seeing a bright light at the end of the tunnel.... and that light looks an awful lot like an XD(m)!

Fyathyrio
06-11-2011, 4:42 PM
OK, just wanna make sure I understand...I want a 3.5" 1911 that is currently an unsafe color. All I need to do is find a friendly FFL, and have him get the gun I want? Then buy, beg, borrow, or steal a barrel at least 6" long that will ensure overall is minimum 10.5", and a busted mag release with a blocked mag? He puts the longer barrel on, and hands me the gun 10 days later? Do I get the original barrel and mag release so I can drop them in and have the gun I want?!?

Librarian
06-11-2011, 5:33 PM
OK, just wanna make sure I understand...I want a 3.5" 1911 that is currently an unsafe color. All I need to do is find a friendly FFL, and have him get the gun I want? Then buy, beg, borrow, or steal a barrel at least 6" long that will ensure overall is minimum 10.5", and a busted mag release with a blocked mag? He puts the longer barrel on, and hands me the gun 10 days later?

Do I get the original barrel and mag release so I can drop them in and have the gun I want?!?

Yes, you can restore the handgun to it's original state.

See also http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=383692

1969glasspar
07-16-2011, 6:38 AM
Ive been reading all night on everthing that said valkrie arms or sse under the search function. I have seen conflicting posts on my only concern of the topic. My question is whether or not I would have to use 10 or less capacity mags for a sse pistol that normally sells with normal capacity mags(more than 10) after I have converted it back to semi auto obviously) to be legal. Especially at the range and shooting events. This is one reason I would go the sse road. The other and less important reason would be to get a remmy 1911r1 since im a remington guy and want a 1911 eventually, Thanks in advance
ps. If it matters, the firearm of interest would be a xdm

CHS
07-16-2011, 7:14 AM
Ive been reading all night on everthing that said valkrie arms or sse under the search function. I have seen conflicting posts on my only concern of the topic. My question is whether or not I would have to use 10 or less capacity mags for a sse pistol that normally sells with normal capacity mags(more than 10) after I have converted it back to semi auto obviously) to be legal. Especially at the range and shooting events. This is one reason I would go the sse road. The other and less important reason would be to get a remmy 1911r1 since im a remington guy and want a 1911 eventually, Thanks in advance
ps. If it matters, the firearm of interest would be a xdm

Do you already have large-capacity magazines? Are you an exempt LEO who can buy large-capacity magazines?

Otherwise, no, you can't use large-capacity magazines in that gun because there is no way for you to legally acquire them.

1969glasspar
07-16-2011, 3:21 PM
thanks CHS, the awnser is no

BannedinBritain
07-16-2011, 10:40 PM
O.K....so I guess I need to start hammering the 07s who've sent me handguns with what looks like a seven inch section of electrical conduit "installed" for the pistol conversions?

chiselchst
07-20-2011, 7:12 PM
1) I was in a local retail FFL today, talking to them about the SSE. They are struggling with firearm sales. They said they were interested in doing SSE sales, but were concerned that a "gunsmithing license" was required for the FFL (retail outlet - as the seller) to replace the barrels. T or F?

(OFF TOPIC) [2) They also stated that they would like to do BB installs themselves, but the ATF or DOJ requires that the individual installing a BB have a "gunsmithing license"? So they have to pay $80 bucks for a BB to be installed prior to receiving the rifle, while one of their employees is fully capable of installing a BB. T or F?])

I told them I would "ask the experts"...then provide a link to the response.

Thanks in advance!

Ford8N
07-20-2011, 7:38 PM
1) I was in a local retail FFL today, talking to them about the SSE. They are struggling with firearm sales. They said they were interested in doing SSE sales, but were concerned that a "gunsmithing license" was required for the FFL (retail outlet - as the seller) to replace the barrels. T or F?

(OFF TOPIC) [2) They also stated that they would like to do BB installs themselves, but the ATF or DOJ requires that the individual installing a BB have a "gunsmithing license"? So they have to pay $80 bucks for a BB to be installed prior to receiving the rifle, while one of their employees is fully capable of installing a BB. T or F?])

I told them I would "ask the experts"...then provide a link to the response.

Thanks in advance!

What is the name of the shop?

bwiese
07-20-2011, 8:34 PM
1) I was in a local retail FFL today, talking to them about the SSE. They are struggling with firearm sales. They said they were interested in doing SSE sales, but were concerned that a "gunsmithing license" was required for the FFL (retail outlet - as the seller) to replace the barrels. T or F?

(OFF TOPIC) [2) They also stated that they would like to do BB installs themselves, but the ATF or DOJ requires that the individual installing a BB have a "gunsmithing license"? So they have to pay $80 bucks for a BB to be installed prior to receiving the rifle, while one of their employees is fully capable of installing a BB. T or F?])



I believe someone's already contacted ATF about BB installs and that's a non-07 gig -- it's a 'drop in', no -gunsmithing part.

[Now, if you had to machine the gun to accept a part, etc. that's a different thing.]

A drop in extended barrel also does not require an 07 FFL, etc. Simple drop in or minor screwdriver work dropping in replacement parts is not 07 stuff.

Now, the fact that they are asking about installing a BB themselves means they may not understand it's illegal to import an ASSAULT WEAPON and then convert it to OLL status [unless the upper & lower are split, and ideally shipped separately.] Or, they're perhaps wanting to make a gun from raw receiver and do in fact need an 07 FFL and have to pay excise tax.

chiselchst
07-20-2011, 9:25 PM
I believe someone's already contacted ATF about BB installs and that's a non-07 gig -- it's a 'drop in', no -gunsmithing part.

[Now, if you had to machine the gun to accept a part, etc. that's a different thing.]

A drop in extended barrel also does not require an 07 FFL, etc. Simple drop in or minor screwdriver work dropping in replacement parts is not 07 stuff.

Now, the fact that they are asking about installing a BB themselves means they may not understand it's illegal to import an ASSAULT WEAPON and then convert it to OLL status [unless the upper & lower are split, and ideally shipped separately.] Or, they're perhaps wanting to make a gun from raw receiver and do in fact need an 07 FFL and have to pay excise tax.

Bill,

As always...

THANK YOU Very Much...I will relay this thread info to them. Deeply appreciative...

Mitch

Blackhawk556
07-21-2011, 2:48 PM
So does anyone know if any NON 07FFLs are doing Single Shot sales of xdm/glock gen4/1911s????

there's a new shop in clovis that has a 07FFL but he is scared to sell single shot guns. The reason, he says, is because the DOJ/ATF (not sure which one he said) agent that checks on them said they want to shut down PRK arms in Fresno because they are doing single shot sales.

the funny thing is that he's willing to sell AR pistols but not non-rostered guns.

dantodd
07-21-2011, 3:03 PM
there's a new shop in clovis that has a 07FFL but he is scared to sell single shot guns. The reason, he says, is because the DOJ/ATF (not sure which one he said) agent that checks on them said they want to shut down PRK arms in Fresno because they are doing single shot sales.


With Kamala Harris and the AG I do not doubt that the CA DOJ would like to shut down PRK arms and every other FFL trying to make a living. That doesn't mean that they can or that what the FFL's are doing doesn't conform to the laws.

Ask your FFL if the DOJ said that they wanted to shut down PRK but that they haven't what does that say about using the single-shot exemption? Does he think that if it was illegal that the DOJ would let it continue for one second? The only reason the DOJ is *****ing about it is because it is perfectly legal and they can't do anything to stop PRK from doing it.

bwiese
07-21-2011, 3:11 PM
If any FFL is shut down for correct sales Roster compliant firearms, they have CGF backing. The lawyers have their dancing shoes ready.

The DOJ tried to dance with PRK before and was found wanting - especially after one DOJ agent put his hands on a local cop customer during an "aggresive audit".

It's Dec 2005 again "We're all going to jail...." - "in two weeks."

Blackhawk556
07-21-2011, 7:07 PM
@@@@@DANTODD.....i agree with you. The problem is convincing the FFL to do non fostered guns. He told me something along the lines of, "if they want to shut them Down for that, then may be I shouldn't do that"

CHS
07-21-2011, 8:23 PM
@@@@@DANTODD.....i agree with you. The problem is convincing the FFL to do non fostered guns. He told me something along the lines of, "if they want to shut them Down for that, then may be I shouldn't do that"

If they want to shut FFL's down for doing it, then that is ALL the more reason to DO IT!

dantodd
07-21-2011, 9:48 PM
@@@@@DANTODD.....i agree with you. The problem is convincing the FFL to do non fostered guns. He told me something along the lines of, "if they want to shut them Down for that, then may be I shouldn't do that"

They (meaning AG Harris and her DOJ) would like to shut down every gun dealer because "they" hate guns. I presume that your dealer chooses to simply follow the letter of the law and accept that the regulatory agency overseeing his business wishes he'd go out of business every day. Otherwise why does he sell guns at all knowing the DOJ would prefer to close down all FFLs in Ca?

jameswest992000
08-19-2011, 3:40 PM
OK, you probably say it in the first post but I'm looking for a simple answer here. :)

If I buy the AR pistol at the local gun shop, can I take the sled out and put a 10 round magazine in it after I take it home?

Is that legal?

EBR Works
08-19-2011, 3:57 PM
OK, you probably say it in the first post but I'm looking for a simple answer here. :)

If I buy the AR pistol at the local gun shop, can I take the sled out and put a 10 round magazine in it after I take it home?

Is that legal?

Simple answer: Yes, as long as you keep the mag lock in place.

.
.
.

tenpercentfirearms
09-09-2011, 9:05 AM
So everyone is talking about drop in parts and how it isn't manufacturing. However, that isn't convincing enough for me. So Google gave me a better feeling about it.

http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2009-2.pdf

18 U.S.C. 921(a): DEFINITIONS
18 U.S.C. 922(a)(1)(A): LICENSES REQUIRED
18 U.S.C. 923(a): LICENSES REQUIRED
27 CFR 478.11: DEFINITIONS
27 CFR 478.41(a): LICENSES REQUIRED
Any person who installs “drop in” replacement parts in or on existing, fully
assembled firearms does not manufacture a firearm, and does not need to be licensed as a
manufacturer under the Gun Control Act. A “drop in” replacement part is one that can be
installed in or on an existing, fully assembled firearm without drilling, cutting, or
machining. A replacement part, whether factory original or otherwise, has the same
design, function, substantially the same dimensions, and does not otherwise affect the
manner in which the weapon expels a projectile by the action of an explosive. Any person
who is licensed as a dealer, which includes a gunsmith, and who installs “drop in”
replacement parts in or on existing, fully assembled firearms as described in this ruling
does not need to be licensed as a manufacturer under the Gun Control Act. Any person
who is engaged in the business of installing “drop in” replacement parts in or on existing,
fully assembled firearms as described in this ruling must be licensed as a dealer, which
includes a gunsmith, under the Gun Control Act.
ATF Rul. 2009-2
The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) has received inquiries
from Federally licensed firearms manufacturers and dealers/gunsmiths seeking clarification
as to whether installing “drop in” replacement parts in or on existing firearms constitutes a
manufacturing activity that requires a manufacturer’s license.
Persons may buy “drop in” replacement firearm parts to replace worn or broken original
factory parts. Replacement parts, such as barrels, triggers, hammers, and sears have been
designed so that they can be dropped in to replace existing parts on fully assembled
firearms. A “drop in” replacement part is one that can be installed in or on an existing,
fully assembled firearm (not solely a frame or receiver) without drilling, cutting, or
machining.
The Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA), Title 18, United States Code (U.S.C.), Chapter 44,
provides, in part, that no person shall engage in the business of importing, manufacturing,
or dealing in firearms until he has filed an application with and received a license to do so
from the Attorney General. A “firearm” is defined by 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(3) to include any
weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted
to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive, and the frame or receiver of any such
weapon. The term “manufacturer” is defined by 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(10) and 27 CFR 478.11
as any person engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms or ammunition for
purposes of sale or distribution. The term “dealer” is defined by 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(11) and
27 CFR 478.11 to include any person engaged in the business of selling firearms at
wholesale or retail, or repairing firearms or making or fitting special barrels, stocks, or
trigger mechanisms to firearms.
- 2 -
In Revenue Ruling 55-342, ATF’s predecessor agency interpreted the meaning of the terms
“manufacturer” and “dealer” for the purpose of firearms licensing under the Federal
Firearms Act, the precursor statute to the GCA. It was determined that a licensed dealer
could assemble firearms from component parts on an individual basis, but could not
engage in the business of assembling firearms from component parts in quantity lots for
purposes of sale or distribution without a manufacturer’s license. Since then, ATF has
similarly and consistently interpreted the term “manufacturer” under the GCA to mean any
person who engages in the business of making firearms, by casting, assembly, alteration, or
otherwise, for the purpose of sale or distribution. Such persons must have a
manufacturer’s license under the GCA.
Installing “drop in” parts in or on existing, fully assembled firearms, whether factory
original or otherwise, does not result in any alteration to the original firearms so long as
they are replacement parts. A replacement part, whether factory original or otherwise, has
the same design, function, substantially the same dimensions, and does not otherwise affect
the manner in which the weapon expels a projectile by the action of an explosive.
Held, any person who installs “drop in” replacement parts in or on existing, fully
assembled firearms does not need to be licensed as a manufacturer under the Gun Control
Act.
Held further, a “drop in” replacement part is one that can be installed in or on an
existing, fully assembled firearm without drilling, cutting, or machining. A replacement
part, whether factory original or otherwise, has the same design, function, substantially the
same dimensions, and does not otherwise affect the manner in which the weapon expels a
projectile by the action of an explosive.
Held further, any person who is licensed as a dealer, which includes a gunsmith, and
who installs “drop in” replacement parts in or on existing, fully assembled firearms as
described in this ruling does not need to be licensed as a manufacturer under the Gun
Control Act.
Held further, any person who is engaged in the business of installing “drop in”
replacement parts in or on existing, fully assembled firearms as described in this ruling
must be licensed as a dealer, which includes a gunsmith, under the Gun Control Act.
Date approved: January 12, 2009
Michael J. Sullivan
Acting Director

And there you have it 01 FFLs, we do not have to be 07 FFLs to install drop in parts.

Lostsheep
09-16-2011, 9:03 AM
So I am trying to convince my brother of the legality of machining out 1911 blanks via the single shot exemption. I am 100% convinced that it is legit, however I can not for the life of me convince my brother. I have read (and shared) the pertinent PC multiple times and I am also the proud owner of an off-roster Gen4 glock. Why do I need to convince him so badly? I need to convince him because I need to use his mills, simple as that. He is understandably unwilling to risk his business.

1. What I am looking for, to bolster my argument is, is there any precedent set surrounding this exemption?

2. How did the DOJ "admit" that this was legal? Was that through a lack of prosecution?

3. Is there any proof of the DOJ having conducted audits on the shops performing these conversions?

4. I see that CGF is prepared to defend a shop doing this; Would CGF back up an 80% build using the SSE?



Any and all input would be greatly appreciated! :)

bwiese
09-16-2011, 9:27 AM
So I am trying to convince my brother of the legality of machining out 1911 blanks via the single shot exemption. I am 100% convinced that it is legit, however I can not for the life of me convince my brother. I have read (and shared) the pertinent PC multiple times and I am also the proud owner of an off-roster Gen4 glock. Why do I need to convince him so badly? I need to convince him because I need to use his mills, simple as that. He is understandably unwilling to risk his business.

He should look around at other businessess that have been doing this successfully for an extended time period - which means DOJ (and perhaps ATF) audited mulitple times.

If he doesn't care to do so, there are enough other FFLs doing it he can cede the profits to them - this is just like OLLs 4 years ago.

For the record, I am the individual that cooked up this 'recipe'. Please O Please O Please I'd love to be arrested for 'conspiracy to commit a on crime' ;-)


1. What I am looking for, to bolster my argument is, is there any precedent set surrounding this exemption?


The exemption is in law. No further definitions exist in regulation or statute and the industry terms 'single shot pistol' and 'single action revolver' apply. We can produce a roomful of experts - once that have testified against various DOJ and ATF people in past and in *winning* cases - that will state we are definitionally correct in these matters.

Single-shot exemption has existed in force since 2006 in 12133PC. The intent was to allow T/C Contenders and Remington XP100s, etc. but the legislature just said single-shot pistols were exempt if they were dimensionally compliant. The intent really has little meaning here and the plain language takes over.

Single-action revolver exemption in 12133PC is "in parallel" and exact wording also (except for separate dimensional specifications).

This has never been taken to court and never will, if the FFL follows the above 'recipes' and guidance.

I will speak for The Calguns Foundation now: his rear is covered and we will back him to hilt, including supplying GOOD lawyers, if he receives drama over this while doing things correctly.

Key thing is for an FFL to have the gun in Roster-exempt form *before* DROS begins, and THRU the 10 day wait and pickup. Once the individual takes possession (walks out of store, just to be clean) he's perfectly legal in modifying the gun to any other legal state, including repeater, legal semiauto configuration, double action revolver configuration, barrel length change, etc. This really isn't technically required by law, but keeps the DOJ happy and out of our hair so the process can be adopted by many more FFLs without grief.



2. How did the DOJ "admit" that this was legal? Was that through a lack of prosecution?


1.) By inspecting and auditing involved CA FFLs that were doing these things. There was a grudging admittance this was legal.
The lawyers have the videos.

Videoed conversations of inspectors exist during multiple audits at multiple involved FFLs, revealing even they have a poor
specific understanding of some matters but understand the generalities.

2.) 'Oaklander' is a lawyer. He was the first, in my knowledge, to voluntarily register a homebrew scratch-receiver AK pistol
that was not also an AW. He built it as an exempt single shot pistol. The DOJ's Brett George contacted him and gave him
some bad noise about SBR matters, etc. until they found out he was a lawyer and involved in gunrights movement. Then
Brett George wrote to say any more communications, because of Oak's lawyer status, must be conducted thru the DOJ's
"public affairs office". If there were anything REMOTELY criminal, they'd've used different paths: what this was was a full
retreat.

3.) We have a letter from Alison Merrilees, former DOJ Firearms attorney. She said it was perfectly legal to build your own
1911 pistol She's actually wrong, as she didn't mention single-shot or other exempt pathway required to avoid building an
'unsafe handgun'. And she was the author/driver of SB15 'unsafe handgun' law ;-)

3. Is there any proof of the DOJ having conducted audits on the shops performing these conversions?

Various FFLs have videos exhibiting various differing statements to various FFLs saying different things (and revealing less
than stellar competency) -but all showing such matters are legal.

Aggressive FFLs are DOJ audited with some relative frequency.

IF there HAD been issues, you WOULD have heard about a bust, and/or CGF defending a legit FFL for legal operations in
this arena - and you haven't.

There is an FFL somewhere around Tracy (and NOT the excellent Tracy Rifle & Pistol, run by PolishMike here) that was popped
for an unsafe handgun transfer. He appears to have just DROSed a non-Rostered revolver to himself and maybe jimmied the
DROS entry screen to 'force' the transaction. We dunno what has happened but he'll likely lose his state gun dealer ticket and
thus his FFL. It is unclear if he'll (or he has) been popped for a misdemeanor.


4. I see that CGF is prepared to defend a shop doing this; Would CGF back up an 80% build using the SSE?


Generally yes, specifics of 'color' depend (did you violate AW laws? were you a felon in possession? not built from stolen parts? e
etc.) and done to the recipe and corners not cut.

We are here to, even beyond the FFL specifically, defend the gun, defend the process, and use our legal strength to show we
continually fight back and will not accept legal attacks based on approximations/assumptions of law or incorrect firearms
technical knowledge.

Lostsheep
09-16-2011, 10:12 AM
First of all let me say, WOW. That was fast and very comprehensive, thanks you.


3.) We have a letter from Alison Merrilees, former DOJ Firearms attorney. She said it was perfectly legal to build your own
1911 pistol She's actually wrong, as she didn't mention single-shot or other exempt pathway required to avoid building an
'unsafe handgun'. And she was the author/driver of SB15 'unsafe handgun' law ;-)


Is there any chance of getting a copy of this letter?


Also, I should clarify. We are not an FFL, we are machinists and we enjoy making our own stuff.


Quote:
4. I see that CGF is prepared to defend a shop doing this; Would CGF back up an 80% build using the SSE?
Generally yes, specifics of 'color' depend (did you violate AW laws? were you a felon in possession? not built from stolen parts? e
etc.) and done to the recipe and corners not cut.

We are here to, even beyond the FFL specifically, defend the gun, defend the process, and use our legal strength to show we
continually fight back and will not accept legal attacks based on approximations/assumptions of law or incorrect firearms
technical knowledge.

I am definitely following the recipe in every way and plan to document accordingly. That being said, I have zero intention of putting any burden on CGF, there are much more important fights out there.

hoffmang
09-17-2011, 1:17 PM
I've attached the letter. It is partially incorrect as Bill says and that's why it's not widely published as it needs some caveats.

-Gene

Lostsheep
09-25-2011, 9:45 AM
I've attached the letter. It is partially incorrect as Bill says and that's why it's not widely published as it needs some caveats.

-Gene

Thanks for that.:)



One more question with respect to doing the conversion from single shot to semi:

Why is converting a single shot to semi not considered "manufacturing an unsafe handgun", and yet taking a 10/30 magazine and converting it to standard capacity is considered manufacturing a "high cap"?

ChrisTKHarris
09-25-2011, 9:55 AM
Thanks for that.:)



One more question with respect to doing the conversion from single shot to semi:

Why is converting a single shot to semi not considered "manufacturing an unsafe handgun", and yet taking a 10/30 magazine and converting it to standard capacity is considered manufacturing a "high cap"?

One word: California

glockman19
09-25-2011, 10:27 AM
So...My dreams of a Kimber Solo are gone because of the size of the barrel and overall length? No single shot conversion?

Librarian
09-25-2011, 10:46 AM
One more question with respect to doing the conversion from single shot to semi:

Why is converting a single shot to semi not considered "manufacturing an unsafe handgun", and yet taking a 10/30 magazine and converting it to standard capacity is considered manufacturing a "high cap"?

Because 'manufacturing an unsafe handgun' is not defined as a crime in the Penal Code. An FFL selling an unsafe handgun is OK, so long as the buyer is exempt from the Roster, OR, as in the case of single-shot conversions, so long as the GUN is exempt from the Roster. The Legislature wrote the exception and enacted it into law; I have no idea what the authors thought they were covering.

So...My dreams of a Kimber Solo are gone because of the size of the barrel and overall length? No single shot conversion?

Why do you think no conversion? One of the usual conversion parts is a very long barrel.

bwiese
09-25-2011, 10:56 AM
Why is converting a single shot to semi not considered "manufacturing an unsafe handgun"?

The handgun was already 'manufactured' into a complete handgun (by a licensee, by definition). Additional changes are not 'nanufacturing'.

And there is no law preventing - once a person has a handgun - that he can't change that gun's configuration (caliber, barrel length, action style, etc.) to any other legal (non-AW, non-SBR, etc.) form.

Now, building a handgun from scratch is a different thing. As you build it, you MUST first go thru the dimensionally-compliant Roster-exempt single-shot pistol (or single-action revolver) stage. Once that's done,
you've manufactured a legal exempt handgun. Further modifications are just that - modifications - and not manufacturing, as the handgun entered its life as a 12133PC exempt handgun.

bwiese
09-25-2011, 11:09 AM
So...My dreams of a Kimber Solo are gone because of the size of the barrel and overall length? No single shot conversion?

Dude, what have we been discussing here all month??



Your CA FFL drops in a long bbl to get to 6" min bbl length &
10.5" min overall length
.
CA FFL puts a zero-round mag (blocked mag, training dummy
mag, etc.) and locks it down by replacing mag catch with a
nut/bolt or other tool-requiring lock-in device.
.
DROS and pick up the gun as such. Reinstall the factory bbl.
Return any lent conversion parts to FFL.

Che
09-27-2011, 6:01 AM
Bill:

Can you please elaborate on:

[N.B. Note that barrel length should stay under the 16” boundary – this is to avoid any risk of crossing outside defined “handgun” territory and
avoiding related SBR complications when attempting to return to handgun status.]

What are the complications of an 18" AR pistol barrel or a 23" T/C barrel on a pistol frame?

jaq
09-27-2011, 7:57 AM
Bill:

Can you please elaborate on:

[N.B. Note that barrel length should stay under the 16” boundary – this is to avoid any risk of crossing outside defined “handgun” territory and
avoiding related SBR complications when attempting to return to handgun status.]

What are the complications of an 18" AR pistol barrel or a 23" T/C barrel on a pistol frame?

It was my understanding that there is no upper length limit to barrel length for a pistol. I say this because I own two TC Contenders. One was purchased as a conversion-capable pistol rifle and I have rifle barrels for it. One is 16" in length. Sometimes, I shoot it as a pistol. My most common TC barrels are "Super 14s". TC and/or accessory mfr.s make a "Super 16" also.

Please correct me if I am wrong, Bill.

CHS
09-27-2011, 8:49 AM
Bill:

Can you please elaborate on:

[N.B. Note that barrel length should stay under the 16” boundary – this is to avoid any risk of crossing outside defined “handgun” territory and
avoiding related SBR complications when attempting to return to handgun status.]

What are the complications of an 18" AR pistol barrel or a 23" T/C barrel on a pistol frame?

CA law defines pistols as having <16" barrels.

Yes, it's a weird quirk of the law, but it's there.

Thing is, we don't know what CA law considers "pistols" with >16" barrels (they certainly aren't rifles), but if you're doing a roster exempt transfer based on the single shot exemption, it should have a barrel length LESS than 16" so that it is absolutely legally considered a pistol.

bwiese
09-27-2011, 10:51 AM
CA law defines pistols as having <16" barrels.

Yes, it's a weird quirk of the law, but it's there.

Thing is, we don't know what CA law considers "pistols" with >16" barrels (they certainly aren't rifles), but if you're doing a roster exempt transfer based on the single shot exemption, it should have a barrel length LESS than 16" so that it is absolutely legally considered a pistol.


^^ THIS. Thanks, CHS.

This is to avoid unnecessary complicating situations that possibly add risk and we don't want to risk
'contaminating' or losing the pistol status esp w/r/to state law.

Dan FS71
09-29-2011, 1:26 PM
Excellant

bwiese
10-07-2011, 4:44 PM
O.K....so I guess I need to start hammering the 07s who've sent me handguns with what looks like a seven inch section of electrical conduit "installed" for the pistol conversions?

Doesn't sound kosher, unless the barrel is already at 6", and that is just used to get the overall length to 10.5".

douglasf13
02-02-2012, 7:05 PM
Hi. I've currently got an off roster S&W 686 sitting at my FFL. My FFL is very friendly, but he is skeptical of allowing me to perform this conversion to single action in shop before starting the DROS. He'd like me to get some kind of official DOJ response that this is legal to do.

Does anyone have any ideas as to how I can convince my FFL that this practice is acceptable? Also, does anyone know of anymore FFLs in the LA area that I could transfer the gun to? Thanks!

ColdDeadHands1
02-02-2012, 8:36 PM
Awesome write up Bill. Thanks. And thanks to Jordan (Shooting 4 Life) for his work on the DA to SA conversion process. I have my eye on a Gunbroker auction for a non-rostered Dan Wesson revolver. I also drive by one of our willing FFL's everyday (Rob Blank in Milpitas).:D The seller is a pawn shop out of state. The listing says he will ship to CA if it is legal to own here.

So, is he going to check the roster, find the gun not on it, and refuse to ship or do out of state FFL's not care about our roster?

I'm going to bid (and win, hopefully) this gun, send him money and my FFL's info. Is this guy going to happily ship the gun out or do you think he will get caught up in the roster? It's a safe bet that if I have to explain that I intend to do a conversion to SA, he will get spooked.

bwiese
02-02-2012, 8:40 PM
Hi. I've currently got an off roster S&W 686 sitting at my FFL. My FFL is very friendly, but he is skeptical of allowing me to perform this conversion to single action in shop before starting the DROS. He'd like me to get some kind of official DOJ response that this is legal to do.


DOJ will not give any response on other than the most basic things ("no you cannot own atomic machinegun missiles"). At best they quote the law and tell you to find your own counsel.

This process (roster-exemption conversions) for single-shot pistols and single action revolvers has been going on for several years now, and CA Leadership FFLs participating in such matters have survived multiple DOJ audits.

Some of the DOJ goons auditing FFLs keep telling folks "They're gonna change the law real soon now..." but that requires a skill set and legal wrangling way above that inspector's pay grade.

The fact that they say they "will" change it also indicates legality.

We'd be in jail now otherwise.

Perhaps you just need to pick a different FFL, one with some hormones. Go to the FFL forum here and ask for an FFL in your area.


Does anyone have any ideas as to how I can convince my FFL that this practice is acceptable? Also, does anyone know of anymore FFLs in the LA area that I could transfer the gun to? Thanks!

The penal code is there for reading.

Furthermore, we have writings from DOJ Deputy AG (one who helped forumulate the Roster/unsafe handgun law) stating that it's legal to buy a Rostered Glock, ship it to GLock for modfiication to non-Rostered form, and reimport it. That, combined with the single-shot/single-action revolver exemption is all you need.

cowboyup
12-23-2012, 6:24 PM
Great Thread, thank you.

edamon
02-28-2013, 11:46 PM
Lots and lots of great info in this thread.

However, was a little disappointing to read, unless I misunderstood. As I understand it (from the handgun stand point).

The barrel length needs to be 6" and overall gun length 10.5"?

Since I'm in the market for a compact at the moment and have a relative (Uncle - moms brother) that has one (and can have the work done locally in FL where he resides) I'm not even sure it's a possible given dimension requires.

The gun is a stainless steel EAA Witness Compact. CZ copy basically and a great gun to shoot. There are some variants out there, but of course none are on the list.

How to get a 6" barrel in there and everything else to make it 10.5" in length - if even possible - is going to look like some kind of Frankenstein looking thing.

Starting to think, I'm going to be stuck getting a Springfield XD Compact, S&W M&P or Ruger SR9c. All great guns, but was really wanting a DA/SA and a stainless compact. Not a big fan of stainless slides on a black poly frame. Have Sig's, was looking for something else, this time around.

This state is getting worse by the minute. Taxes, grid locked traffic anywhere you're going in Los Angeles after 3pm... if my ex-wife and daughter weren't out here, I'd be gone already.

On a side note -- in case I've missed it -- anyone know of a stainless steel compact that is on the roster? lol

thanks.

-damon