*****2nd Amendment Sports, Part 2, they held my guns

[whonosewhose]

......if you followed the other post of dealing with a BS situation of 2nd Amendment Sports in Bakersfield, CA.

Read this for part one:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=43625


Part 2:

I go down to the gun store after I get off work today to pick up my handguns. The DROS is complete and the 10 days is up.

I sit down, the girl that signs them out gets out my paperwork, gets my handguns which are handed to me and im looking at....then she says hold on I need authorization to sign these out since they said they were holding them till payment was recieved.....the floor manager decides he cannot release them to me till he talks to the head general manager who isnt working and "they cant get ahold of"...they call the 2nd in command manager and he says "just hold his guns till I talk to the head manager this weekend etc" and they tell me to come back next week to pick them up.......


At this point I inform them that DROS is finished, Penal codes requires their release to me, if they arent released im reporting them stolen and calling the sheriff dept right now.

They said sorry there is nothing they can do, So I call the sheriff's dept to send an officer out to allow me to take my property with me. At that point I have my handguns in my hands and I am not giving them back.

While waiting for sheriff dept to show up, one guy calls the 2nd in command manager on what to do, the manager says "Cancel the DROS's immediately before the police arrive"...


So they cancelled the fQ#@*king DROS's and say "sorry now there is nothing you can do to take them home and youll have to reDROS them and wait another 10 days or have the sellers pick them up in 2 days after they are back in their name etc....

Sheriff shows up and doesnt know much about the laws but he tells them it was a complete dick move to cancel the transfer because I called them and basically they had no right to hold my property over another civil matter unrelated. Also he cannot give me my firearms and they have to stay with them since the DROS is cancelled and they cant be legally released now.


I'm soooooooooooooo f'ing mad.....what is the most I can possibly do here for retribution....

[guimus]

I think it's pretty certain there are a few hundred of us that will never shop there. I think they'll be getting some letters informing them of this. I think they've also opened themselves up to a civil suit, which I highly encourage you to do. You may not get anything out of it other than a few dollars for your time, but it will certainly hurt them. Heck, play dirty (but legal). Notifiy the ATF of anything strange you've noticed at the shop. It's true that CA needs gun shops, but we don't need a bunch of ***hole gunshop owners that are bad to their customers.

[Powersauce]

If the dros was cancelled...could the original owner take the guns back? Then you can go to another FFL?

[Scarecrow Repair]

I'm soooooooooooooo f'ing mad.....what is the most I can possibly do here for retribution....
You're doing it! No one here is going to trust them after a bogus move like canceling the DROS. I bet you could have some fun with them ion small claims court over DROS fees. They'd have to send the owner or manager to defend and that would cost them more than just doing the right thing to start with.

[uglygun]

Know what I'd do?

Providing what you say is true with regards to your account standing.

Provided you can get a refund of fees paid for them not delivering your guns(fat chance due to them thinking you owe them money).

See if you can contact the original seller, find out if he is willing to pick up his guns. Reimburse him any fees that 2nd Amendment might charge, then go down the road to Valley Gun and have Ken do the transfer.... You'll pay more for the guns but it will be money into the competition's pocket over the deal and a loss of a customer.

You might pay more but you can turn around and pull a total dick move of your own on 2nd Amendment and give the money to somebody who deserves it.

Matt Janes really needs to be brought into this matter, check the response I had in your original thread and see if you can't just side step the two idiots you are running into at 2nd Amendment and get Matt to contact you by relaying your information through their former shop manager if she'd be willing to plead your case(especially if she recognizes you).


I'm about 90% decided on never recommending 2nd Amendment to anyone for anything right now.

[Joe]

If the dros was cancelled...could the original owner take the guns back? Then you can go to another FFL?

I was thinking the same thing.

[whonosewhose]

Can I sue them for the firearms value (x2 or 3) still even since I am now out my property even if the seller picks them up, plus DROS fees etc? I mean they held my property etc and I've lost it due to them.

If I call the DOJ and file a complaint, who do i speak to there or whats the process on doing that?

Also im going to call the BBB tomorrow to file a complaint........

I'll get ahold of the 686 owner tomorrow and im sure he will pick it up and take it over to Valley Gun for me...

[chiefcrash]

since they aren't authorized to deny a PPT, how are they authorized to cancel a DROS for a PPT? especially when the DROS is complete?

[guimus]

I think they have opened themselves up to punitive damages, but I am not a lawyer.

One fun thing would be to print up a few hundred copies of your story and pay a bum 50 bucks to hang out outside the store for a few days distributing them to would-be shoppers.

[hoffmang]

I think you may want to call the sheriff you dealt with and report your pistol stolen. The other option is to call BATF in LA and explain the situation.

They have opened themselves to treble damages.

-Gene

[whonosewhose]

I am going to file a report with the Sheriff dept tomorrow, I should have gotten one tonight but I was so hot headed that I wasnt quite thinking straight

I dont know if I can file them stolen if they are now not in my name and the DROS is cancelled....argh

[hkfooey]

Brother - this is crazy.

I have reading along your story and "hope" that it was all a mis-unstanding from the store... but not until they cancel the DROS... that's bad... :eek:

Do the best you can to fight them (within the law, of course)... I am sure that everyone from Calgun have been following this would tell all their friends about this incident... no more business for them (at least from us)! :mad:

[whonosewhose]

On the DROS form, there is a signout section. Is it required by law that it be signed out to me before I take possession of the firearms? If I have possession of them before it is signed out is that illegal for me or their problem after the 10 days is up? Because I had possession when sheriffs dept showed up and was forced to give them back after they showed the DROS was cancelled.

Because to me it seems they cancelled the DROS after I took possession even though they werent signed out on the pickup section

[hoffmang]

You own them after you pay the man you bought them from. You may not take possession until the DROS is complete. I expect you offer to drop the charges after you file them if they re-run the DROS out of their pocket and compensate you for the trouble in the first place.

-Gene

[Sutcliffe]

"There isn't such a thing as bad publicity?"

[whonosewhose]

I had possession of the firearms at the time the DROS was cancelled...more than one employee present at the time would verify and sign (spelling) affadavid's to it. They stated that I could legally take delivery of them till the paperwork was signed out. Do I have a leg to stand on that the DROS was complete and I shouldnt have to re-dros them ?

[shamus]

I don’t know for sure, but if you report the guns stolen you might not be able to DROS them at another dealer because they are now reported stolen.

Good Luck

[ivanimal]

I would think it a crime to falsify legal documents like a DROS, dont you have to have a reason to legally stop a DROS? They have to do one, by law, there must be rules governing their conduct. What they did cannot be legal.

I am moving this to the Second Amendment forum for better coverage.

[M. Sage]

Can the dealer cancel the DROS on a PPT? I was under the impression that it could only be cancelled by the seller and the buyer.

[Stan_Humphries]

I will be calling them to let them know that they have lost my patronage....

[Fjold]

I left them a polite message on the contact page on their website asking them to remove me from their mailing list as I will not patronize their store anymore after hearing how badly they treated a customer on the DROS of his PPT.

http://www.2ndamendmentsports.com/contact-us.php

If you are polite and to the point, you can make an impression on these people. Calling them names or writing obscenities will not accomplish anything.

[Blackwater OPS]

I left one as well, this is no way to treat a customer. You cannot hold someone's property hostage, it's illegal.

[rkt88edmo]

I would really try to get in touch with the owner, but I wouldn't be surprised if he backs his employees at this point.

I am shocked they cancelled the DROS on your PPT

[The SoCal Gunner]

I left one as well, this is no way to treat a customer. You cannot hold someone's property hostage, it's illegal.

+1 just left an email also.

Keep us updated.

[jemaddux]

I told you before when this all started how to take care of this. The firearms now belong back to the seller, NOT the store because they canceled the DROS they HAVE to be returned to the seller. Have that person call and make a report. Now as far as getting even you then call ATF and explain that they are dealing with stolen firearms and you know two firearm reported stolen are in there inventory and also make sure DOJ is aware also. When they check they will pull the FFL, at min, DOJ will put a hold them for a while.

[NwG]

E-mail and letter sent.. They will get the point.. And loose a good deal of customers.

[AJAX22]

I sent the following e-mail,
I will follow up with a letter in the morning.

To whom it may concern,

The recent incident involving the cancellation of the DROS on a PPT of two handguns has come to the attention of the California firearm community.

Your actions as they are currently represented, are seen as dishonest bordering on criminal. This is costing you customers.

I would like to invite you to respond to these accusations at: http://www.calguns.net/

If these assertions are true, many Californians, myself included, will not be doing business with you in the future.

Thank you,

I am not disputing the given account of the events, but I would like to hear from them why they would engage in such a criminal activity. Perhapse they can be given an oportunity to bow out gracefully and do the right thing without legal pressure being brought.

A dialouge can be more productive than a lawsuit for everyone involved.

[LAK Supply]

Do you have an email for the store? If so, PM me with it. I would like to ask them about this transaction (or lack thereof) as well. If I ever treated a customer like this there would be serious repercussions, and I don't even sell firearms.

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

For your actions of cancelling a DROS and PPT on a customer, thereby illegally holding his property from him after repeated requests for you to turn his property over, you have lost all of my future business with your establishment and that of my friends and associates as well.

I hope your actions made it worth it. It should accentuate the bullet hole in the filing cabinet, covered by the magnet.

- Brenden Azevedo

Screw those guys, for sure!

[EBWhite]

Once they handed me the guns, i would have walked out with them. The dros and your paperwork was already filled out at the beginning. You didnt need to do anything else. if they called the cops then you could have answered questions later

[E Pluribus Unum]

This is one reason why I will never buy as much as a paper target from Suck Azz Sports. Go to Valley Gun or Aloha Guns.

[CALI-gula]

I told you before when this all started how to take care of this. The firearms now belong back to the seller, NOT the store because they canceled the DROS they HAVE to be returned to the seller. Have that person call and make a report. Now as far as getting even you then call ATF and explain that they are dealing with stolen firearms and you know two firearm reported stolen are in there inventory and also make sure DOJ is aware also. When they check they will pull the FFL, at min, DOJ will put a hold them for a while.

The seller should walk into that store and get the guns back immediately. If they deny them to the seller, then have him file a theft report. The seller should attempt to get them. Filing a stolen firearm report too soon could tie up the guns with an investigation and delay you getting them. Get the seller to pick em up and go elsewhere. Whatever the outcome, a report should be made to both ATF and DOJ about the Federal and DROS forms being canceled by this dealer and they're holding the guns. ATF and DOJ don't take kindly to dealers kidnapping guns due to personal vendettas.

This was a PPT right? If not, and they shipped to the store for transfer, 2nd Amendment sports should do everything in their power to ship them back to the seller, with no delay. It was their choice to give you hell, it's now their choice to prevent hell for themselves. If the dealer holds on to them for more than 7 days without an active DROS but is refusing to do the transfer, it seems viable to report them as stolen goods. I think xeno had a post on that once explaining why. The dealer is only the custodian of the sale, but should act professionally. What they did is way wrong.

I don't think I'd ever go near their store now!



.

[allenst65]

I assume when you conducted the original transfer with this dealer, you filled out the 4473 and made the first signature on it, provided the CA required docs, and then had the dealer submit the CA DROS portion through their computer system. Once electronically submitted, you then should have had to sign the computer printout and apply a thumbprint to it to complete the CA DROS submission.

Did you get a copy of this computer printout of the DROS submission which shows the date, time and DROS number? If so, I would call the Firearms Division's Denial Review Unit at their direct line (916) 227-3749. These are the folks who will tell you why your DROS was denied (... but of course it wasn't denied by DOJ). Ask if your DROS was approved by them and see if it is still considered valid as far as CA DOJ is concerned.

In the chance the DROS status shows denied or shows that it was changed from approved back to canceled by request of the dealer, get clarrification on what reasons were used for declaring the transfer void.

I suspect the last step when you went in today was simply for you to sign and date the recertification on the 4473. The CA DROS portion should have been complete with nothing else required if it had been approved by DOJ.

Despite what the store told you, if they didn't go in the computer and somehow cancel the DROS electronically, there's still a chance the DROS shows as approved under your name for the 18 or so remaining days of your pickup period.

In either case, DOJ should be able to tell you which person (you or the original seller) now shows as the registered possesor of the guns within AFS. This should guide in determining which one of you has the legal grounds for pursuing return or delivery of the guns from that no-good dealer.

[Thrillbilly]

Email sent

[JGarrison]

I'm up in Norcal but I sent email as well, wow.

[JPglee1]

Im gonna call these guys on the phone.

Emails probably won't hold as much weight as say 1000 phone calls to the manager would.

A phone call means he has to stop what he's doing and get on the phone.

An email can be "deleted" at will by anyone with a password for the account. Keep that in mind...


J

[phil conrad]

I think like some others have said call the ATF and DOJ.

[mike100]

they canceled a perfectly good dros..who's gonna pay for that? If they pay the dros and get the guns back to the original owner, then have him take them to another ffl and go with and set up another x-fer.

the worst part is that the other party has your cash..hope he is willing to work it out with you.

[metalhead357]

I look forward to another FFL being shut down. Normally I grimace. This time I will rejoice.

As others said. They do NOT have the authority to stop a DROS~ especially if it is over/past the ten days. If you dont have a copy of your DROS~ I'm sure a lawyer could get you a subpeona via a judge for it. If you do- I would definitely file a theft report. I would call DOJ, BATF, the BBB, and call the actual owner of the store.

Too late now- but I too would not have handed the guns back once they were shown to me.

Anyone down there have friends in/with the local media?

NExt, I would contact Bill and get the names of a couple good Gun lawyers; maybe Mike Hass too as maybe somebody on a local council might be able to go talk some sense into this FFL fool.

If you're off this weekend- I'd carry a picket sign just off thier property in the gaudiest Hi visability yellow backing you can find.

I'm truly sorry you have to be the one to stand up for your rights and be the one to "take one for the team" but this situation is absurd & needs a concrete resolution so it NEVER happens to another law abiding citizen.

[Fjold]

Do you have an email for the store? If so, PM me with it. I would like to ask them about this transaction (or lack thereof) as well. If I ever treated a customer like this there would be serious repercussions, and I don't even sell firearms.
http://www.2ndamendmentsports.com/contact-us.php

[SemiAutoSam]

Site states domain has expired



http://www.2ndamendmentsports.com/contact-us.php

[shonc99]

I have been trying to look up the website and I kaap getting an error? Did somebody crash tme? :D :eek:

[metalhead357]

I have been trying to look up the website and I kaap getting an error? Did somebody crash tme? :D :eek:

LOL! I WISH I could say it was me....but wasnt; but I did get off an E to them about 20 minutes before you guys posted. Maybe they're already getting hammered with E- about this:D Or maybe the boycott already caught up to them!!!!!!!!

[Inoxmark]

I suspect the last step when you went in today was simply for you to sign and date the recertification on the 4473. The CA DROS portion should have been complete with nothing else required if it had been approved by DOJ.
4473 is a federal form, it is not required for PPT. Once your 10 days are up and your DROS is not denied, there's nothing between you and your PPT guns.

[Rascal]

I think the prime directive should be getting the original owners to get their property back so you can go somewhere else to do your transactions, and get your guns back, THEN go after this guy with all you got, BUT first get those guns out of that guys store. JMHO
I pass through Bakersfield quite often and always thought about stopping there, but now I'm glad that I never did, and for sure I won't be doing that ever.
One more potential customer that they will never get.

[SemiAutoSam]

Here is what google cached of their webpage for anyone that wants their contact info to how pissed off we are as a community.


Second Amendment Sports
Your No #1 Hunting, Shooting, Fishing & Camping Source in Bakersfield
Home
Law Enforcement
News
About Us
History
Map to Store
News
Partners in Conservation
Staff Bios
Staff Trips
Site Map
Contact Us
WELCOME TO YOUR OUTDOOR SUPERSTORE
WELCOME TO YOUR OUTDOOR SUPERSTORE

As an outdoor sports store, we try to escape to the outdoors as much as we can. Second Amendment Sports grew from a personal passion with the shooting sports.
We started with six cases of ammunition, re-invested it, and never looked back. We now continue to surround you with the things we love. If you hunt, fish, or camp, we have the right gear and expertise to help you have a better experience.
OUR LOCATION
2523 Mohawk St. Bakersfield, California 93308-6003
On the corner of Rosedale and Mohawk.
Store Hours: 9:30 AM - 7:30 PM, Mon-Sat, Closed Sundays
Phone: 661-323-4512 | Fax: 661-322-3252

SECOND AMENDMENT SPORTS NEWS
12/06/06: New Links to Major US Airline Cargo Rules
12/05/06: Second Amendment Sports Expands Into Tucson, AZ!
11/28/06: New Discount Section Added To Our Site!
More news...
Hunting In the News
Second Amendment Sports is proud to offer the latest News in hunting and outdoor activities. Below are the latest headlines for hunting news:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Firearms hunting claims three lives (Michigan Outdoor News)
Lansing — Three hunters have died in firearms-related hunting accidents this year in Michigan as of Nov. 27, according to a hunting incident report prepared by the DNR’s Law Enforcement Division.


Alligator Hunting Season May Again Be Expanded (WKMG Local6.com via Yahoo! News)
Wildlife officials will discuss expanding alligator hunting and trapping, or any other ways to manage the estimated 1 million to 2 million gators in Florida, according to Local 6 News partner Florida Today.


Send us holiday, hunting photos (Norwich Bulletin)
We’re looking for reader photos for a variety of online photo galleries. Here are the topics: *outdoor holiday decorations *indoor holiday decorations *family get-togethers *pictures with Santa *trimming your tree *hunting expeditions



NEWSLETTER Sign Up: Privacy Policy
About Us | Warranty | Employment | Tactical Marksmanship and Scenario Training | Contact Us | Privacy Policy | Disclaimer
HUNTING | FISHING | ARCHERY | CAMPING | SHOOTING | SERVICES


Login...
Second Amendment Sports © 2006
Shop Address: 2523 Mohawk St. Bakersfield, California 93308-6003
Store Hours: 9:30 AM - 7:30 PM, Mon-Sat, Closed Sundays
Phone: 661-323-4512 | Fax: 661-322-3252

[shark92651]

I sent them an email also. They should have quite an inbox waiting for them.

[Hunter]

Site states domain has expired


Looks like they exceeded their traffic limits with their provider.....I wonder how that happened:rolleyes:

That will now cost them more $$ to pay for increased server time!

[E Pluribus Unum]

It was not traffic overloading... they simply did not pay and their domain expired:

Domain created on 13-Dec-2002
Domain expires on 13-Dec-2006
Last updated on 15-Dec-2006

[Fjold]

Site states domain has expired


LMAO!!!!! :D :D :D

I originally posted that link last night after I emailed them, now see what you guys have done!

Do you realize what a headache it is when you exceed your bandwidth and get shut down by your hosting company (Didn't we have that here last month?)

Now look at all the extra work these people will go through! Now once they get back online, I don't want you guys all rushing in at one time to send messages and crashing them again.

[E Pluribus Unum]

LMAO!!!!! :D :D :D

I originally posted that link last night after I emailed them, now see what you guys have done!

Do you realize what a headache it is when you exceed your bandwidth and get shut down by your hosting company (Didn't we have that here last month?)

Now look at all the extra work these people will go through!

As I said before, they were not shut down for traffic. They let their domain expire:

Registrant:
Pending Renewal or Deletion
PO BOX 502010
San Diego, CA 92150-2010
US

Domain Name: 2NDAMENDMENTSPORTS.COM

Administrative Contact, Technical Contact, Zone Contact:
Pending Renewal or Deletion
PO BOX 502010
San Diego, CA 92150-2010
US


Domain created on 13-Dec-2002
Domain expires on 13-Dec-2006
Last updated on 15-Dec-2006

[whonosewhose]

Once they handed me the guns, i would have walked out with them. The dros and your paperwork was already filled out at the beginning. You didnt need to do anything else. if they called the cops then you could have answered questions later


I tried...I went in unarmed intentionally to avoid an escalated incident. They seriously had 4 employees on hand because I attempted to leave once but at that point I decided I needed to wait for the sheriff before leaving their property as I was worried that it could be considered illegal to take the firearms without the signed out DROS paperwork. Normally they sign and I sign when picking up a firearm, I was worried about possibly incomplete paperwork.

[shark92651]

It was not traffic overloading... they simply did not pay and their domain expired:

Domain created on 13-Dec-2002
Domain expires on 13-Dec-2006
Last updated on 15-Dec-2006

But what are the odds of it happening just now? I sent an email to them just before I left for the office, now it is down. Did someone initiate a denial of service attack? :D

[Kestryll]

They're back up for me.

[Rumpled]

I just tried to buy their domain, looks like it's renewed to 12/13/07

[whonosewhose]

Im gonna call these guys on the phone.

Emails probably won't hold as much weight as say 1000 phone calls to the manager would.

A phone call means he has to stop what he's doing and get on the phone.

An email can be "deleted" at will by anyone with a password for the account. Keep that in mind...


J


The main manager's name is Brenden

After that the 2nd in command is Keith

[whonosewhose]

I assume when you conducted the original transfer with this dealer, you filled out the 4473 and made the first signature on it, provided the CA required docs, and then had the dealer submit the CA DROS portion through their computer system. Once electronically submitted, you then should have had to sign the computer printout and apply a thumbprint to it to complete the CA DROS submission.

Did you get a copy of this computer printout of the DROS submission which shows the date, time and DROS number? If so, I would call the Firearms Division's Denial Review Unit at their direct line (916) 227-3749. These are the folks who will tell you why your DROS was denied (... but of course it wasn't denied by DOJ). Ask if your DROS was approved by them and see if it is still considered valid as far as CA DOJ is concerned.

In the chance the DROS status shows denied or shows that it was changed from approved back to canceled by request of the dealer, get clarrification on what reasons were used for declaring the transfer void.

I suspect the last step when you went in today was simply for you to sign and date the recertification on the 4473. The CA DROS portion should have been complete with nothing else required if it had been approved by DOJ.

Despite what the store told you, if they didn't go in the computer and somehow cancel the DROS electronically, there's still a chance the DROS shows as approved under your name for the 18 or so remaining days of your pickup period.

In either case, DOJ should be able to tell you which person (you or the original seller) now shows as the registered possesor of the guns within AFS. This should guide in determining which one of you has the legal grounds for pursuing return or delivery of the guns from that no-good dealer.

Yes I have a copy of the computer printout of the DROS paperwork. Also they did go in electronically and cancelled the DROS through the computer while I was waiting for the Sheriff to arrive. I will call the phone # and attempt to file a complaint today about my DROS being cancelled. I will see if I can do anything about the cancelled DROS and have it reinstated (I doubt it , is it possible?)


So today I am going to:

1) Call seller to pick up handgun
2) File complaint DOJ & ATF (How and where/who do I file the ATF complaint to?)
3) Start looking into small claim court (Can I still sue for the value of my handguns that were returned to seller?)
4) ???? what else should I do here

[toolman9000]

Also you can go to:

ripoffreport.com

and cut and paste your story there, more eyes the better.


-toolman9000

[E Pluribus Unum]

But what are the odds of it happening just now? I sent an email to them just before I left for the office, now it is down. Did someone initiate a denial of service attack? :D

I am a network consultant. I swear to you it was completely coincidental.

[jnojr]

IIWY, I would call DOJ and ask them if an FFL can just "cancel" a DROS that's been completed. I'm going to assume the answer is "No", because once it's finished, only DOJ could "reverse" or "cancel" it. In that case, I would ask a Deputy Sheriff or police officer to accompany me to the store and pick up my property... the handguns are now registered in your name. There is no way they can refuse to hand them over.

I also think I'd become a major dick over this. Firearm theft charges for all involved. FFLs have been shut down for much less... I hope these jerkoffs can be next.

[E Pluribus Unum]

IIWY, I would call DOJ and ask them if an FFL can just "cancel" a DROS that's been completed. I'm going to assume the answer is "No", because once it's finished, only DOJ could "reverse" or "cancel" it. In that case, I would ask a Deputy Sheriff or police officer to accompany me to the store and pick up my property... the handguns are now registered in your name. There is no way they can refuse to hand them over.

I also think I'd become a major dick over this. Firearm theft charges for all involved. FFLs have been shut down for much less... I hope these jerkoffs can be next.

The FFL CAN cancel the DROS. Whether or not it is legal to do so in this case is whats in question.

[Spawn_X]

What f'ing bullcrap. Hope they get what's coming to them

[ivanimal]

Are there any outdoor writers you read from there? I would look into having them call for an interview about a store (that like the DOJ) makes its own laws. The gun friendly press can be an asset here as well.

[dwtt]

I take back what I wrote in the first part of this thread.
Second Amendment Sports is worst than Traders. I think their license will be taken away within 3 years.

[koiloco]

I just talked to a FFL that I always deal with and he said that
it is legal and possible for a FFL to cancel a DROS of
any transaction. While he has not done one for many
years, he said it would take some effort on their end
to cancel a DROS.

As for this case, he advised that you just need to walk in with an attorney and ask for your firearm back. If they indeed refuse again, then just file the law suit and report to DOJ and ATF. There is not much that the sheriff and local L.E. would be able to do for you.

[guns_and_labs]

Email sent. Hopefully the volume of traffic will have some effect.

I would think you could bring action in small claims.

[ibbryn]

Too bad one of us couldn't have bought that domaine once it expired....

[kantstudien]

4473 is a federal form, it is not required for PPT. Once your 10 days are up and your DROS is not denied, there's nothing between you and your PPT guns.

Wrong.

[SemiAutoSam]

Every firearm transaction weather dealer to individual or individual to individual requires a 4473 unless its a long gun 50 years old or older.

[Inoxmark]

Wrong.Please elaborate? That's what my dealer said when I did a PPT through him. To paraphrase him: Feds don't care about transactions between residents of the same state, only our state does. He went right to DROS, then we went through all the required motions with the safety demo, thumbprint, safe affidavit, etc. 11 days later he just handed my gun over to me. I can definitely see his logic.

[stealthmode]

what a dirty trick for them to do:mad:

[E Pluribus Unum]

Too bad one of us couldn't have bought that domaine once it expired....

Doesn't work that way... when a domain name expires the original registrant has about a month to renew before it becomes available to another registrant.

You can pay for the domain name but you will not retain ownership.

[Rob Jones]

This whole story is really quite incredible. I've shopped at 2nd Amendment in the past, but as many other posters have said, it's not the same store it was years ago. For those of you who might be looking for another FFL in Bakersfield to do business with, I'd like to recommend Mike's Custom, owned by Mike Scales. Mike would never treat a customer in the manner outlined in this thread, and his prices are usually much better than 2nd Amendment's. Plus he's just a real nice guy who also happens to love firearms. Here's his contact info:

Mike's Custom
661-834-7836

Rob

[E Pluribus Unum]

This whole story is really quite incredible. I've shopped at 2nd Amendment in the past, but as many other posters have said, it's not the same store it was years ago. For those of you who might be looking for another FFL in Bakersfield to do business with, I'd like to recommend Mike's Custom, owned by Mike Scales. Mike would never treat a customer in the manner outlined in this thread, and his prices are usually much better than 2nd Amendment's. Plus he's just a real nice guy who also happens to love firearms. Here's his contact info:

Mike's Custom
661-834-7836

Rob

I bought my M1A from SAS back in March of 2001. They were a different store back then. I actually bought it from Matt Jaines (the owner). His brother David owns a pipe business right next to SAS and at one time I talked to them both on a regular basis; that has been a while however. He has since moved to Arizona and the place has gone down hill.

[artherd]

Depending on just how mad I was I would do one of the following in a heartbeat:

1) Drop $30grand of my time/money/efforts into a civil suit, seek fees, possibly reliance money, and reimbursement for lost time, etc.
2) Spend 1 day in small claims, seek costs. (reliance, punative, etc. damages rarely if ever awarded in small claims.)
3) Eat the $55 or so bux and never shop there again, and tell all my friends same.

[SemiAutoSam]

YA mind spelling out what SAS means in this context.

Im known by those initials around these parts.

Thanks

I bought my M1A from SAS back in March of 2001. They were a different store back then. I actually bought it from Matt Jaines (the owner). His brother David owns a pipe business right next to SAS and at one time I talked to them both on a regular basis; that has been a while however. He has since moved to Arizona and the place has gone down hill.

[Scarecrow Repair]

YA mind spelling out what SAS means in this context.

Im known by those initials around these parts.

Thanks
Second Amendment Sports?

[Blackwater OPS]

Second Amendment Sports?

I think he knew, he was just saying that he does not want people confusing him with a crap gunstore.

[SemiAutoSam]

Yes thats what I meant.

Thanks guys.

I think he knew, he was just saying that he does not want people cinfusing him with a crap gunstore.

[JAMES77257]

Call and ask for Matt ( the owner ), chances are, he knows nothing about this. When Matt was across the street, I gave him all of my business.

Matt is a good guy, he just got too big too quick and lost touch with his customers.

I now go through a private FFL that charges a fraction over wholesale, PM me if anyone wants my FFL's contact info.

-James

[NIB]

Anybody up for making a few signs and picketing in front of the store!

[kantstudien]

Please elaborate? That's what my dealer said when I did a PPT through him. To paraphrase him: Feds don't care about transactions between residents of the same state, only our state does. He went right to DROS, then we went through all the required motions with the safety demo, thumbprint, safe affidavit, etc. 11 days later he just handed my gun over to me. I can definitely see his logic.

Your dealer is extremely confused, and I would suggest you use another one before he calls you hurriedly in the middle of the night to "fill-out" some missing paperwork that the ATF wants to look at. A 4473 is to be filled out for every firearms transaction that takes place at a FFL dealer, save for antique firearms. The reason the feds don't care about private transfers between residents of other states is due to them never having to go to a FFL to complete the transaction in the first place. Therefore the firearms never make it into the dealer's bound book.

[kantstudien]

IIWY, I would call DOJ and ask them if an FFL can just "cancel" a DROS that's been completed. I'm going to assume the answer is "No", because once it's finished, only DOJ could "reverse" or "cancel" it.

A DROS can be canceled by the dealer at any time between the start of the DROS and 30 days later. He simply reviews the DROS number and clicks the "Cancel DROS" button. If the firearm is not picked-up by the transferee, the DROS is automatically "cancelled" because the dealer cannot allow the person to receive the firearm until another DROS is started and another 10 days elapse. A DROS is not considered "complete" until the signatures, dates, and thumbprint are collected at the right times and the transferee walks out of the store with his/her firearm.

[mscales5]

Please elaborate? That's what my dealer said when I did a PPT through him. To paraphrase him: Feds don't care about transactions between residents of the same state, only our state does. He went right to DROS, then we went through all the required motions with the safety demo, thumbprint, safe affidavit, etc. 11 days later he just handed my gun over to me. I can definitely see his logic.

Inoxmark, if a FFL has a firearm in his store it MUST be listed on his A&D book and when that firearms is transfered it MUST have a 4473. This is LAW in ALL states. Only in states that that only have the Federal laws may transfer a firearm from one private party to another private party with no paperwork. In CA ALL fireams MUST be transfered using a FFL with the exception being a INTRA FAMILY TRANSFER and then you just print a copy of the form on the DOJ site and send it in with your money. No waiting period is needed. Any dealer that did what you described is in violation of most all CA and Federal laws.



WOW! I just stumbled on this thread. Since I am a FFL in Bakersfield I will not comment on Matt and and Amendment Sports. However, as to the actions by the manager (?), once I had the guns in my hand I would have walked out the door. Any attempt to stop me would have been illegal detention and if they touched me it would have been an assault and if they held me or locked the doors it would have been kidnapping. Best thing to do is contact ATF and DOJ. What they did is not legal but it is a civil problem and not a police problem. The best thing to do is get the firearms owner to pick up the guns and take them to another dealer. SAS is responsible for the refund of the start and PPT fees since they are the ones that cancelled the DROS. If they really did cancel the DROS ask for a copy of the cancelled DROS, they MUST provide that to the buyer.

[sierratangofoxtrotunion]

I'd say have the original seller take the guns back, and right there in their presence, have him "lend" them to you. Then take your business elsewhere.

That's how I do PPTs, I walk into a gun store with the gun I'm buying and I tell them I'm buying it. They get a question mark over their head and I explain the owner (that guy over there peering in the glass case) was lending it to me to try out and I've now decided that I do indeed want to buy it.

[SemiAutoSam]

Would this tactic work the same with handguns that it would with rifles /shotgun's ?



I'd say have the original seller take the guns back, and right there in their presence, have him "lend" them to you. Then take your business elsewhere.

That's how I do PPTs, I walk into a gun store with the gun I'm buying and I tell them I'm buying it. They get a question mark over their head and I explain the owner (that guy over there peering in the glass case) was lending it to me to try out and I've now decided that I do indeed want to buy it.

[sierratangofoxtrotunion]

Would this tactic work the same with handguns that it would with rifles /shotgun's ?
I think so? I think you can lend handguns just the same.

[SemiAutoSam]

TO anyone's knowledge is there a time frame or time limit when one would have to give the firearm back to the lender ?

this could start an interesting trend hmmm.

I need a bolt gun in 308 or 30/06 who will lend me one ?


I think so? I think you can lend handguns just the same.

[mscales5]

I'd say have the original seller take the guns back, and right there in their presence, have him "lend" them to you. Then take your business elsewhere.

That's how I do PPTs, I walk into a gun store with the gun I'm buying and I tell them I'm buying it. They get a question mark over their head and I explain the owner (that guy over there peering in the glass case) was lending it to me to try out and I've now decided that I do indeed want to buy it.

If this is really how you do a transfer then you have already broken the law. A firearms owner can NOT lend a firearms without doing a DROS and the waiting period. The only time a frearm can be in someone elses hands is if they are (16yrs old for long guns and 18 for hand guns) family members living in the same household. If the sellor hands you the firearm he MUST stay with you at all times. For you to accept them and leave both of you have commited a crime. It is NOT legal to have a firearm in your position that is not registered to you without the registered own present.

[SemiAutoSam]

This may be the case with handguns but since long guns aren't registered this would be ok with them yes ?



If this is really how you do a transfer then you have already broken the law. A firearm owner can NOT lend a firearm without doing a DROS and the waiting period. The only time a firearm can be in someone else's hands is if they are (16yrs old for long guns and 18 for hand guns) family members living in the same household. If the seller hands you the firearm he MUST stay with you at all times. For you to accept them and leave both of you have committed a crime. It is NOT legal to have a firearm in your position that is not registered to you without the registered own present.

[762cavalier]

A firearms owner can NOT lend a firearms without doing a DROS and the waiting period. The only time a frearm can be in someone elses hands is if they are (16yrs old for long guns and 18 for hand guns) family members living in the same household. If the sellor hands you the firearm he MUST stay with you at all times. For you to accept them and leave both of you have commited a crime. It is NOT legal to have a firearm in your position that is not registered to you without the registered own present.
Actually the law allows for the loan of a firearm for up to 30 days.It does not need to be a family member, anyone can loan a firearm to anyone legally allowed to possess firearms. You do not need to do a dros to loan a firearm.Now if money changes hands then it is not a loan and the DROS needs to be done.

[NIB]

So,

What proof do they have that you owe them money?

Receipt?
Log Book?
By memory?

Ask for proof from them. If it's something out of a logbook then how can they prove it wasn't a clerical error. If they only have a receipt for part of the payment then how do they know if they themselves haven't lost the other receipt with the other payment. How can they prove it wasn't a dishonest employee that pocketed the money.

[mscales5]

This may be the case with handguns but since long guns aren't registered this would be ok with them yes ?


No, ALL firearms MUST be transfered by a dealer. No loaning of any firearms is permitted. There is a place on the DROS registration for a LOAN. When the dealer clicks on "LOAN" it then asks Hand gun or Long gun and directs the dealer to the correct DROS form.

[Mssr. Eleganté]

No, ALL firearms MUST be transfered by a dealer. No loaning of any firearms is permitted. There is a place on the DROS registration for a LOAN. When the dealer clicks on "LOAN" it then asks Hand gun or Long gun and directs the dealer to the correct DROS form.

This is simply not true. California law allows for the loan of both long guns and handguns. See California Penal Code sections 12070(b)(4) and 12078(d)(1).

12078(d)(1) -- Subdivision (d) of Section 12072 shall not apply to the infrequent loan of firearms between persons who are personally known to each other for any lawful purpose, if the loan does not exceed 30 days in duration and, when the firearm is a handgun, commencing January 1, 2003, the individual being loaned the handgun has a valid handgun safety certificate.

[SemiAutoSam]

Well I have a strong feeling that your Wrong and to back it up this comes to mind Since a person can give a long gun as a gift I feel that lending a firearm is OK also. Just so the person borrowing or bring given the long gun isnt in a catagory that would make it illegal for him to receive it. IE Felon, 5150 nutcase, ect.




No, ALL firearms MUST be transfered by a dealer. No loaning of any firearms is permitted. There is a place on the DROS registration for a LOAN. When the dealer clicks on "LOAN" it then asks Hand gun or Long gun and directs the dealer to the correct DROS form.

[Whitesmoke]

No, ALL firearms MUST be transfered by a dealer. No loaning of any firearms is permitted. There is a place on the DROS registration for a LOAN. When the dealer clicks on "LOAN" it then asks Hand gun or Long gun and directs the dealer to the correct DROS form.


Mike....no offense meant, as I know your a FFL. But read page 43 of this:

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/Cfl2006.pdf

It says,

"2) The dealer licensing and reporting requirements do not apply to the loan of any firearm
in the following instances:

• Infrequent loans of firearms between persons who are personally known to each
other for any lawful purpose, if the loan does not exceed 30 days in duration. (Penal
Code § 12078(d).)
• Loans of a firearm for the purpose of shooting at targets on the premises of a target
facility if the firearm is kept within the premises of the target facility at all times.
(Penal Code § 12078(h).)
• Loans of an unloaded firearm or a firearm loaded with blanks for use solely as a
prop for motion picture, television or other entertainment event. (Penal Code
§ 12078(s).)
• Loans of a long gun to a licensed hunter for a period of time not to exceed the
hunting season for which the firearm is being used. (Penal Code § 12078(q).)
• Loans to minors by a parent, legal guardian, or grandparent:
- Long guns may be loaned for an indefinite period.
- Handguns may be loaned for the purpose of engaging in a lawful activity, and
the loan does not exceed the period of time necessary to participate in the
activity.
• Loans to minors by other than a parent or legal guardian:
- Long guns may be loaned with the express permission of a parent or legal
guardian if the loan does not exceed 30 days.
- Handguns may be loaned with the express permission of a parent or legal
guardian for not more than 10 days. (Penal Code § 12078(p).)"

[762cavalier]

Thanks Whitesmoke that was what I was looking for. the restriction Mike was talking about only applies to him as he is an 01 FFL. HE cannot loan firearms without DROS but a nonlicensed person can.

[Inoxmark]

I think I found something interesting directly related to the OP's situation:

From Dealer's FAQs on DOJ website (http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dlrfaqs.php#26G):
26. How can I correct or cancel a DROS submission?

If you need to report a handgun DROS correction or cancellation within the 10-day waiting period, you may do so with the computer with which you submitted the DROS.

If you need to report a handgun DROS correction or cancellation after the 10-day waiting period, you must fill out the DROS cancellation or correction form and mail it to the DOJ.
Wouldn't this rule make online DROS cancellation by 2nd Am Sports invalid since it was done after 10-day waiting period?

[Whitesmoke]

I'd say have the original seller take the guns back, and right there in their presence, have him "lend" them to you. Then take your business elsewhere.

That's how I do PPTs, I walk into a gun store with the gun I'm buying and I tell them I'm buying it. They get a question mark over their head and I explain the owner (that guy over there peering in the glass case) was lending it to me to try out and I've now decided that I do indeed want to buy it.

I don't really get what your accomplishing with this...??? You still need to do the paperwork....correct?

[Whitesmoke]

I think I found something interesting directly related to the OP's situation:

From Dealer's FAQs on DOJ website (http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dlrfaqs.php#26G):

Wouldn't this rule make online DROS cancellation by 2nd Am Sports invalid since it was done after 10-day waiting period?

OR...maybe they lied about canceling the DROS.

[mscales5]

Well, wouldn't be the first time I was wrong. Anyway, there are limits to all of it and there are more codes that pretain to a loan. Some of the DOJ caode refers to Federal codes also which are different. There are several penal codes that form a catch 22 on loans. You can not give a long gun as a gift unless it is to a family member. That is covered several times in different parts. and it has ot be a direct member not a imlaw or step child. Father to son, grandfather to grandchild and so on. There is also a several other items that you must also cover and liabilty is just one. What you really need to do is go the State DOJ and read all of the code for 12078. There is a lot more to this then what you see on the DOJ firearms site or firearms code book.This 12078 also involves other codes and provisions. There is alsoprovision that say " 12078 (F) (b)(1) (A) this is near as I can tell, "(A) the person loaning the firearm is at all times within the presnce of the person being loaned the firearm."

[triggerhappy]

Add another non-customer. This was my E-mail to them:

Dear Sir or Madam,

I was shocked to hear of your store's recent breaking of customer trust (and quite possibly state laws) in order to facilitate what amounts to bad bookeepingon your part.

As an avid shooter with contacts throughout this state, the situation regarding your canceling a DROS on a customer for what amounts to faulty management strikes me as deplorable. What ever happened to "the customer is always right"? Will this man have to litigate to get his property? If so, how can your business do this and thrive?

Since I make my own schedule, should there be a picketing or a protest of your stores practices, I will most assuredly be there.

We gun enthusiasts MUST stick together, I would hope that your company recognizes this and changes its ways.

Sincerely,
RK Pool

I bet they're gonna get tired of this soon, lol

[triggerhappy]

Anybody up for making a few signs and picketing in front of the store!

Yes. I'll dirve from Monterey to make the point!

[triggerhappy]

WOW! I just stumbled on this thread. Since I am a FFL in Bakersfield I will not comment on Matt and and Amendment Sports. However, as to the actions by the manager (?), once I had the guns in my hand I would have walked out the door. Any attempt to stop me would have been illegal detention and if they touched me it would have been an assault and if they held me or locked the doors it would have been kidnapping. Best thing to do is contact ATF and DOJ. What they did is not legal but it is a civil problem and not a police problem. The best thing to do is get the firearms owner to pick up the guns and take them to another dealer. SAS is responsible for the refund of the start and PPT fees since they are the ones that cancelled the DROS. If they really did cancel the DROS ask for a copy of the cancelled DROS, they MUST provide that to the buyer.

So, your siblings don't pick on YOU anymore, do they? :D

[jnojr]

A DROS can be canceled by the dealer at any time between the start of the DROS and 30 days later. He simply reviews the DROS number and clicks the "Cancel DROS" button.

So, I could buy a handgun, wait ten days, pick it up, and they have 20 days in which they could "cancel" my DROS and make me a felon???

There's something missing here.

[Mssr. Eleganté]

This 12078 also involves other codes and provisions. There is alsoprovision that say " 12078 (F) (b)(1) (A) this is near as I can tell, "(A) the person loaning the firearm is at all times within the presnce of the person being loaned the firearm."

The provision you are refering to applies to loaning firearms to people you don't know or people using the firearm for "theatrical" purposes. It says "The person loaning the firearm is at all times within the presence of the person being loaned the firearm." These kinds of loans can't exceed three days.

But the provision I posted the text of earlier allows for loan of up to 30 days "of firearms between persons who are personally known to each other."

Yes, all of the California gun laws and Federal gun laws are complex and confusing. But that doesn't mean we have to give up and start following laws that don't really exist "just to be safe".

[AresXD40]

Has there been any progress in solving this?

[sierratangofoxtrotunion]

I don't really get what your accomplishing with this...??? You still need to do the paperwork....correct?
Just so that he can have the gun for now. Yeah, it looks to me like he's gotta do a whole nother DROS through another shop.

(Sorry everybody for my stuff throwing the thread off temporarily)

[david_place_834]

So, I could buy a handgun, wait ten days, pick it up, and they have 20 days in which they could "cancel" my DROS and make me a felon???

There's something missing here.

Just another one of our whacking laws. Seems any disreputable FFL, like Second Amendment Sports Bakersfield, can screw a customer in any manner of ways. Unfortunately, in the sad case of Whonosewhose, he can be further screwed in the original sellers deciding not to retrieve their firearms from Second Amendment Sports Bakersfield and failing to return the money paid by Whonosewhose. I sympathize for this poor chap.

Contrary to some opinions here, I'm sure glad Whonosewhose did not take the firearms from the store when the items were handed to him. The disreputable, no-good, lying, deceitful, cheating FFL (Did I say Second Amendment Sports Bakersfield?) could have canceled the DROS and reported the firearms stolen. He would have been up **** creek!

[socalsteve]

Whonosewhose - keep updating us - I have off the week after Christmas maybe I should drive to bakersfield and shop the store and when they ask if they can help just ask "arn't you the guys who screwed somebody on a DROS cause you can't keep your paperwork straight"? I'm just looking I'll NEVER buy anything from your store.

Best wishes and enjoy the Holiday - don't let this get you down.

Small claims court is your friend - sue for the max. and let the judge decide it will cost the store more time and money than you!

[mscales5]

So, your siblings don't pick on YOU anymore, do they? :D

What?

Amendment II, you need to keep reading. Federal law says you can't sell to someone you don't know. That does not apply to CA because we have more added. Also, you can't loan a firearm to anyone that does not have a CA approved gun lock or safe that meet CA requirements. There is a lot more to it then what you posted and it all needs to be read. With a lawyer if you happen to have one handy. Hey, do what you want to do. I do what I have been told by the ATF and DOJ over the years. There is a lot more to it all if you read everything. Sometimes I think all of the double talk is done intentionally. For me, I will always error on the side of my FFL to keep it intact and trust me, it is not that easy to do..

[Hunter]

....., you can't loan a firearm to anyone that does not have a CA approved gun lock or safe that meet CA requirements. There is a lot more to it then what you posted and it all needs to be read. .....


This is flat wrong. Dealer transactions are the ONLY firearm transactions in this state that fall under the "Aroner-Scott-Hayden Firearms Safety Act of 1999". Otherwords if you will kindly read PC 12087 thru 12088 you will find the following:


12088.1. (a) All firearms sold or transferred in this state by a
licensed firearms dealer, including private transfers through a
dealer, and all firearms manufactured in this state, shall include or
be accompanied by a firearms safety device that is listed on the
Department of Justice's roster of approved firearms safety devices
and that is identified as appropriate for that firearm by reference
to either the manufacturer and model of the firearm, or to the
physical characteristics of the firearm that match those listed on
the roster for use with the device.

Then you have the exceptions to section (a) that states:


(d) The sale or transfer of a firearm shall be exempt from
subdivision (a) if both of the following apply:
(1) The purchaser or transferee owns a gun safe that meets the
standards set forth in Section 12088.2. Gun safes shall not be
required to be tested, and therefore may meet the standards without
appearing on the Department of Justice roster.
(2) The purchaser or transferee presents an original receipt for
purchase of the gun safe, or other proof of purchase or ownership of
the gun safe as authorized by the Attorney General, to the firearms
dealer. The dealer shall maintain a copy of this receipt or proof of
purchase with the dealers' record of sales of firearms.
(e) The sale or transfer of a firearm shall be exempt from
subdivision (a) if all of the following apply:
(1) The purchaser or transferee purchases an approved safety
device no more than 30 days prior to the day the purchaser or
transferee takes possession of the firearm.
(2) The purchaser or transferee presents the approved safety
device to the firearms dealer when picking up the firearm.
(3) The purchaser or transferee presents an original receipt to
the firearms dealer which shows the date of purchase, the name, and
the model number of the safety device.
(4) The firearms dealer verifies that the requirements in (1) to
(3), inclusive, have been satisfied.
(5) The firearms dealer maintains a copy of the receipt along with
the dealers' record of sales of firearms.



And that is it. Nothing about loans to others or gifts or transfers between family members requiring an approved gun lock or gun safe because PC 12088 ONLY applies to dealer transactions, period.

[Hunter]

You need to read the sections as you go along. You have not checked out. GO to (d)(1) Subdivision (d) of section 12072. This is all found in the ATF book State Laws and Published Ordinances - Firearms. This book contains all the firearms info for each state in one book. It also cover any county or city laws for that state.

Like I said, If there is a mix up I error on the side of my FFL.

That section does not apply to the gun lock requirement that you believe we all need to do. For the record that section says basically that all guns transfer and loans must go thru a FFL dealer. But then if you will continue to read the rest of the PC (as you pointed out to Admendment II when he tried to correct you), you will find the following EXCEPTIONS to (d)(1) Subdivision (d) of section 12072.


12078(d) (1) Subdivision (d) of Section 12072 shall not apply to the
infrequent loan of firearms between persons who are personally known
to each other for any lawful purpose, if the loan does not exceed 30
days in duration and, when the firearm is a handgun, commencing
January 1, 2003, the individual being loaned the handgun has a valid
handgun safety certificate.

(2) Subdivision (d) of Section 12072, and subdivision (b) of
Section 12801 shall not apply to the loan of a firearm where all of
the following conditions exist:
(A) The person loaning the firearm is at all times within the
presence of the person being loaned the firearm.
(B) The loan is for a lawful purpose.
(C) The loan does not exceed three days in duration.
(D) The individual receiving the firearm is not prohibited from
owning or possessing a firearm pursuant to Section 12021 or 12021.1
of this code, or by Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and
Institutions Code.
(E) The person loaning the firearm is 18 years of age or older.
(F) The person being loaned the firearm is 18 years of age or
older.



So once again, since loans that meet the above requirements do not need to be conducted thru a FFL dealer (since they are exempt) they are then also exempt from any "gun lock" or "gun safe" requirements. This also holds true for all of the other exemptions of PC 12072(d)(1) section such as gifts, loans and transfers between immediate family members; Loans to minors with parent permissions; Transfer of firearms from an estate settlement (wills, ect); .......ect.

[E Pluribus Unum]

Call and ask for Matt ( the owner ), chances are, he knows nothing about this. When Matt was across the street, I gave him all of my business.

Matt is a good guy, he just got too big too quick and lost touch with his customers.

I now go through a private FFL that charges a fraction over wholesale, PM me if anyone wants my FFL's contact info.

-James

Matt moved to Arizona.... store has gone to carp.

[JAMES77257]

Matt moved to Arizona.... store has gone to carp.


Wow, that just shows how much I've been in there lately.

[Mssr. Eleganté]

Amendment II, you need to keep reading. Federal law says you can't sell to someone you don't know.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Maybe you can point us in the right direction so we can read these laws of yours for ourselves. The actual text of the relevant laws has been posted for you here by a few different folks. All you can say is "There is a lot more to it then what you posted and it all needs to be read..." but you won't post the relevant text for us to read.

You have been posting a lot of misinformation about California and Federal gun laws in a few different threads this week. "It's true because ATF told me!" or "It's true because CalDOJ told me!" doesn't really cut it anymore on Calguns, for obvious (two weeks) reasons.

I you want to follow a more restrictive set of rules for personal reasons, that is your right. But please stop trying to pass off your personal rules as real State and Federal laws that we all should follow.

[stator]

When you guys write to that FFL, refer to whoknowswho as your "neighbor". It will give more weight to your email and as long as you do not qualify "neighbor", you are telling the truth. He is your forum neighbor.

You can say something like:

One of my neighbors mentioned your store..... blah blah blah.... I have decided not to patronize your store until this gets resolved satisfactorily.

One more note, always leave room for the store to win you back. This gives them more incentive to do right.

[JAMES77257]

Everyone please keep in mind that we've only heard one side of the story.

[whonosewhose]

I will update you guys after the weekend when more happens.

1) Sellers picked up the pistols and im meeting them at Valley Gun to do the PPT there
2) The manager relayed to my friend that works thereI was no longer welcome in the store and that his voice mail was full from people calling in about it when he arrived to work friday.
Now that is HILARIOUS, thanks to all you that called in and left ****ty messages for him on how he has handled this.
3) I'm looking to recover my PPT fees from them (about $80)
4) Sally @ DOJ when I called said it was not illegal for them to cancel the PPT at anytime before the handguns were signed out to me.
5) still working on further things

[Fjold]

The manager relayed to my friend that works thereI was no longer welcome in the store and that his voice mail was full from people calling in about it when he arrived to work friday.
Now that is HILARIOUS, thanks to all you that called in and left ****ty messages for him on how he has handled this.



Don't forget that their website crashed.

[Hunter]

Their website is backup. I think it would be neighborly if we all left them a message on our view of this situation.

http://www.2ndamendmentsports.com/contact-us.php

[Hunter]

Matt moved to Arizona.... store has gone to carp.

Yep, looks like they are opening another store in Arizona..


Second Amendment Sports is growing! We're not adding on to the Bakersfield store again, (however, that WOULD be cool), but we have expanded our territory to include Tucson, Arizona!

The new SAS location will be at 5146 E. Pima St., where you can see Matt and Dana Janes, the Owner and President of the company

[DSA_FAL]

I will update you guys after the weekend when more happens.

1) Sellers picked up the pistols and im meeting them at Valley Gun to do the PPT there
2) The manager relayed to my friend that works thereI was no longer welcome in the store and that his voice mail was full from people calling in about it when he arrived to work friday.
Now that is HILARIOUS, thanks to all you that called in and left ****ty messages for him on how he has handled this.
3) I'm looking to recover my PPT fees from them (about $80)
4) Sally @ DOJ when I called said it was not illegal for them to cancel the PPT at anytime before the handguns were signed out to me.
5) still working on further things

Don't necessarily take what the DOJ says on the phone on face face value. They have given erroneous information over the phone in the past. Generally, information in writing is much more accurate. But at least think of talking to a firearms law attorney about this. I do suggest talking to the ATF as well.

[whonosewhose]

By the way, if i havent stressed it enough. Thank you to the entire calguns community for supporting me and helping me deal with this. Its like one big family here!

[Diabolus]

Don't get your hopes up, it could have gone either way ;)

[chickenfried]

Remember the Krinker Plinker and the calguns thread being the fifth result on a google search? This thread doesn't show up at all in a search for "second amendment sports" on google :confused:

[krim]

may not have been indexed yet, try tomorrow

[moulton]

messege sent :p

[ivanimal]

Glad you will be united with you guns soon. I still say this should be pointed out to the management. The owner should hear how his store is being represented. I am sure a bunch of us would like to send an email to him as well.:cool:

[hkfooey]

Looks like we have a happy ending... :)

With all these threads... remind me of "Target Master" in Milpitas incident not too long ago... ;)

[jrhglock99]

I left them a polite message on the contact page on their website asking them to remove me from their mailing list as I will not patronize their store anymore after hearing how badly they treated a customer on the DROS of his PPT.

http://www.2ndamendmentsports.com/contact-us.php

If you are polite and to the point, you can make an impression on these people. Calling them names or writing obscenities will not accomplish anything.

I left one as well. Good luck with everything.

[jaymz]

Amendment II, you need to keep reading. Federal law says you can't sell to someone you don't know.
So you mean to say the the guy @ the gun shop "knows" everybody he sells a gun to !?!?

That does not apply to CA because we have more added.
More added what?:confused:

[chickenfried]

Flava, fool!


More added what?:confused:

[jemaddux]

Mike....no offense meant, as I know your a FFL. But read page 43 of this:

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/Cfl2006.pdf

It says,

"2) The dealer licensing and reporting requirements do not apply to the loan of any firearm
in the following instances:

• Infrequent loans of firearms between persons who are personally known to each
other for any lawful purpose, if the loan does not exceed 30 days in duration. (Penal
Code § 12078(d).)
• Loans of a firearm for the purpose of shooting at targets on the premises of a target
facility if the firearm is kept within the premises of the target facility at all times.
(Penal Code § 12078(h).)
• Loans of an unloaded firearm or a firearm loaded with blanks for use solely as a
prop for motion picture, television or other entertainment event. (Penal Code
§ 12078(s).)
• Loans of a long gun to a licensed hunter for a period of time not to exceed the
hunting season for which the firearm is being used. (Penal Code § 12078(q).)
• Loans to minors by a parent, legal guardian, or grandparent:
- Long guns may be loaned for an indefinite period.
- Handguns may be loaned for the purpose of engaging in a lawful activity, and
the loan does not exceed the period of time necessary to participate in the
activity.
• Loans to minors by other than a parent or legal guardian:
- Long guns may be loaned with the express permission of a parent or legal
guardian if the loan does not exceed 30 days.
- Handguns may be loaned with the express permission of a parent or legal
guardian for not more than 10 days. (Penal Code § 12078(p).)"


Loans are done all the time in the studios. This is why they created a Lic for motion picture. We don't have to do that background stuff, its just a straight loan.

[E Pluribus Unum]

Don't forget that their website crashed.

Why don't people listen?? :)

THE WEBSITE CRASHING HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH OUR RESPONCES

THEIR HOSTING COMPANY TOOK THEIR MONEY TO HOST THE SITE BUT NEGLECTED TO RE-REGISTER THE DOMAIN.

[proraptor]

Im glad the original poster got his guns back....SAS wont get any business from me!

[megavolt121]

Why don't people listen?? :)

THE WEBSITE CRASHING HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH OUR RESPONCES

THEIR HOSTING COMPANY TOOK THEIR MONEY TO HOST THE SITE BUT NEGLECTED TO RE-REGISTER THE DOMAIN.

Maybe their hosting company will suspend their account and take their domain because SAS didn't pay a few months back. Oh wait, someone just stole that money!

[Fjold]

Why don't people listen?? :)

THE WEBSITE CRASHING HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH OUR RESPONCES

THEIR HOSTING COMPANY TOOK THEIR MONEY TO HOST THE SITE BUT NEGLECTED TO RE-REGISTER THE DOMAIN.



Because it's so much more fun to watch computer weenies stroke out about it.

[E Pluribus Unum]

Because it's so much more fun to watch computer weenies stroke out about it.

I'm a 6 foot 260 lb. "computer weenie" who likes hunting, off-roading, and hiking.

And for the record I am not having a stroke; I am simply setting the record straight.

[Cardinal Sin]

Yeah but still, its funny to read/watch people get all bent out of shape over stuff like this . . . :D




"I'm a 6 foot 260 lb. "computer weenie" who likes hunting, off-roading, and hiking."



Sounds like a singles add . . hahaha. J/k

[E Pluribus Unum]

Yeah but still, its funny to read/watch people get all bent out of shape over stuff like this . . . :D


As I said I am not bent out of shape. If you look at my post it is followed with a :) to indicate not being bent out of shape.

I was trying to avoid rumor and conjecture that users of calguns crashed a gun store's website because of all the rude comments being left. Such a rumor may potentially damage the reputation of many of its users.

I was trying to nip it in the bud from the very start because it is absolutely false.

[E Pluribus Unum]

"I'm a 6 foot 260 lb. "computer weenie" who likes hunting, off-roading, and hiking."

Sounds like a singles add . . hahaha. J/k

Reading it like that it sure does! :)

I was simply meaning to clarify that I do not fit the typical mold of a computer technician. My afinity for firearms for one thing. :)

[Whitesmoke]

Yeah but still, its funny to read/watch people get all bent out of shape over stuff like this . . . :D




"I'm a 6 foot 260 lb. "computer weenie" who likes hunting, off-roading, and hiking."



Sounds like a singles add . . hahaha. J/k


Hey maybe AM will read your ad.....LOL. :D :eek:

[Cardinal Sin]

Hey maybe AM will read your ad.....LOL. :D :eek:


:p :p x 100

[rla_2000]

With a majority of people using the internet to find local business info (Address/Phone Number) if you feel the need to hit them; hit them where it hurts, at their prospective "New" customers.

Go to yahoo.com
In the search field type: Second Ammendment bakersfield, ca
word for word, space for space and the comma

This will take you to their Local Listing under yahoo
click on the link and it will open "listing"-kind of like a yellowpages ad.

In the top-right hand corner there is a rating system, simply click on the last star to the right-hand side to fignify that their service is "AWEFUL!", make your comment and it will be in their yahoo history forever!!!

I look at these ratings frequently and it has saved me from going to thr wrong mechanic when I moved to my current home-town.

P.S. I do believe that you have to have a yahoo screen-name to leave a comment. (It's free so what the heck)

[HK fan]

take them to small claims court, they will lose and you'll make their lives miserable

[Aluisious]

......if you followed the other post of dealing with a BS situation of 2nd Amendment Sports in Bakersfield, CA.

Read this for part one:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=43625


Part 2:

I go down to the gun store after I get off work today to pick up my handguns. The DROS is complete and the 10 days is up.

I sit down, the girl that signs them out gets out my paperwork, gets my handguns which are handed to me and im looking at....then she says hold on I need authorization to sign these out since they said they were holding them till payment was recieved.....the floor manager decides he cannot release them to me till he talks to the head general manager who isnt working and "they cant get ahold of"...they call the 2nd in command manager and he says "just hold his guns till I talk to the head manager this weekend etc" and they tell me to come back next week to pick them up.......


At this point I inform them that DROS is finished, Penal codes requires their release to me, if they arent released im reporting them stolen and calling the sheriff dept right now.

They said sorry there is nothing they can do, So I call the sheriff's dept to send an officer out to allow me to take my property with me. At that point I have my handguns in my hands and I am not giving them back.

While waiting for sheriff dept to show up, one guy calls the 2nd in command manager on what to do, the manager says "Cancel the DROS's immediately before the police arrive"...


So they cancelled the fQ#@*king DROS's and say "sorry now there is nothing you can do to take them home and youll have to reDROS them and wait another 10 days or have the sellers pick them up in 2 days after they are back in their name etc....

Sheriff shows up and doesnt know much about the laws but he tells them it was a complete dick move to cancel the transfer because I called them and basically they had no right to hold my property over another civil matter unrelated. Also he cannot give me my firearms and they have to stay with them since the DROS is cancelled and they cant be legally released now.


I'm soooooooooooooo f'ing mad.....what is the most I can possibly do here for retribution....
If you're rich, you could sue them for something minor.

Other than that, you can badmouth them on the net ;)

[brighamr]

small claims probably wont due too much, but on the other hand, ruining their reputation online as well as by word of mouth will definitely hurt them.

[mscales5]

small claims probably wont due too much, but on the other hand, ruining their reputation online as well as by word of mouth will definitely hurt them.

It really is hard to ruin something that never was.

[E Pluribus Unum]

I think the problem here is that he tipped his hand. He should have called the cops and waited.

[Jeremy K.]

I think the problem here is that he tipped his hand. He should have called the cops and waited.

He did.

So I call the sheriff's dept to send an officer out to allow me to take my property with me.

Sheriff shows up and doesnt know much about the laws but he tells them it was a complete dick move to cancel the transfer because I called them and basically they had no right to hold my property over another civil matter unrelated.

The best to come from this situation is that we are all savvy to this shops charades.

[Whitesmoke]

He did.





The best to come from this situation is that we are all savvy to this shops charades.

I think he means he should have called the cops WITHOUT telling them he was doing so....that way they wouldn't have canceled the DROS.

[Jeremy K.]

I think he means he should have called the cops WITHOUT telling them he was doing so....that way they wouldn't have canceled the DROS.

Lol Yeah, I'm sure that is what he meant as well.

Chock that post up premature posting due to a girlfriend biding for my utmost attention. =)

[mscales5]

Lol Yeah, I'm sure that is what he meant as well.

Chock that post up premature posting due to a girlfriend biding for my utmost attention. =)

Actually, if he had signed ALL the papers and had the guns "in hand" then they were his and he could leave. After the 4473 is signed he has "taken possion" according to federal and state law. To cancel the DROS after that is actionable sicne the guns are already his and no longer in the inventory of the store.

[wutzu]

This just gets worse and worse. How does this store stay in business?

[ridingonfumes]

.....


I'm soooooooooooooo f'ing mad.....what is the most I can possibly do here for retribution....


well making this thread is a start : )
its funny because i was just going there to but or look at buying a gun safe in the next few days.
but after reading your story i wont go there anymore :(

[Rob Jones]

If you're looking to buy a gun safe, here's a recommendation. Buy from T&T Safes in Bakersfield. They sell Liberty safes (which are quite good) AND they're usually at the Gun Shows at the fairgrounds, AND there's a gunshow coming up next weekend (March 10th and 11th). Oftentimes they will discount a safe a few hundred dollars at the shows just so they don't have to lug it back to their showroom.

Rob

[Wulf]

Oftentimes they will discount a safe a few hundred dollars at the shows just so they don't have to lug it back to their showroom.

Rob

Ditto that, I had a buddy that went to the gun show late on sunday with a truck, a heavy duty dolly, a friend, and cash. He cut a great deal on safe.

[NSTLLMNGR]

If this is really how you do a transfer then you have already broken the law. A firearms owner can NOT lend a firearms without doing a DROS and the waiting period. The only time a frearm can be in someone elses hands is if they are (16yrs old for long guns and 18 for hand guns) family members living in the same household. If the sellor hands you the firearm he MUST stay with you at all times. For you to accept them and leave both of you have commited a crime. It is NOT legal to have a firearm in your position that is not registered to you without the registered own present.

Is a Handgun Safety Certificate (HSC) required when a handgun is being loaned?
It depends on the specific circumstances. Generally, a person being loaned a handgun must have a current Handgun Safety Certificate (HSC). However, an HSC is not required when the loan does not exceed three days in duration and the person loaning the handgun is at all times within the presence of the person being loaned the handgun.

[CalNRA]

I don't know if this thing has been settled or not, but I just sent emails to the Bakersfield, Tuscon, and coporate sales departments. I told them I was looking on behalf of my Dad(he doesn't have time to shop for guns so he asks me to look around and he will then by them himself) for a few O/U shotguns and they just lost about 4 grand in sales. Good job 2nd Amendment sports!!!

[gibbygoo]

I just ran across this thread. I thought it was just me that gets questionable service from SAS. I have a nice rant that I need to vocalize soon...

[kermit315]

Please start a new thread and let this one die.

[chunger]

email sent. . . keep us updated.



*****edit********

Oh crap, just saw that this thread is dated 2006, not 2007. . .. now, I feel dumb.

[tgriffin]

PEOPLE.....check the date on the thread before posting!!!!!

[.22guy]

PEOPLE.....check the date on the thread before posting!!!!!

I'm kind of torn on that. I feel like people sometimes get ripped for necro-posting, but then if they start a new thread people will rip them because we already have 1, 2, 3 or more threads ripping Second Amendment Sports in Bakersfield. It seems like you can't win. I'm not referring to this site only.

[Soldier415]

http://www.sonic.net/~atomicow/Necropost-kitten.jpg

[metalhead357]

Ahhhhhhhhhh Heck

Bring back the dead. I've resurrected some in my time......



Mmmmmm....dead......Zombies; mmmmmmm...Brains!!!!!:D

[Soldier415]

BRAAAAAAAINS!!!!!!!!!!

BRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAINS!!!!

[N6ATF]

I'm kind of torn on that. I feel like people sometimes get ripped for necro-posting, but then if they start a new thread people will rip them because we already have 1, 2, 3 or more threads ripping Second Amendment Sports in Bakersfield. It seems like you can't win. I'm not referring to this site only.

I believe it's been said before that necroposting is only appropriate if you have something meaningful to add to the thread. If you're just saying "yeah, screw those adam henries!", that's a no-no. But if you have your own story to add to the OP's story, it's ok.

[tenpercentfirearms]

Join the ranks of others who drive to Taft to save money and get superior customer service. Come to TPF!!!

[Whitesmoke]

Join the ranks of others who drive to Taft to save money and get superior customer service. Come to TPF!!!


I agree....I just drove my mother-in-law from bakersfield to Taft 2 weeks ago so she could buy my father-in-law a Ruger Alaskian. Wes's service is worth the drive...and prices are very good too.

[USN CHIEF]

I just ran into this thread read the whole thing, took me about 30 minutes, I sent an email to the store and told them that I will never never buy anything from them...

[tenpercentfirearms]

I just ran into this thread read the whole thing, took me about 30 minutes, I sent an email to the store and told them that I will never never buy anything from them...

Why waste your time? You live in San Diego and this thread is rather old. There is no need to badger a gun store over what it does. If you don't like it, just don't buy anything from them. There is no need to send hate mail. Do something more constructive with your time.

[BLFD1]

Why waste your time? You live in San Diego and this thread is rather old. There is no need to badger a gun store over what it does. If you don't like it, just don't buy anything from them. There is no need to send hate mail. Do something more constructive with your time.

I disagree. I think that the store should realize that their actions will possibly affect the feelings of future customers. I went there when I was working in B-Town and let's just say that I didn't feel welcome and their prices were high. I won't go back.

As I'm sure you know, there is no better advertising than word of mouth. Let them know that the internet is a powerful tool.

[metalhead357]

I disagree. I think that the store should realize that their actions will possibly affect the feelings of future customers. I went there when I was working in B-Town and let's just say that I didn't feel welcome and their prices were high. I won't go back.

As I'm sure you know, there is no better advertising than word of mouth. Let them know that the internet is a powerful tool.


On that I fully agree with you. Tell the shop WHY you're leaving them & tell the new shop specifically WHY you like them better.

[scrat]

i disagree also. i just read the whole thing too and sent them an email. it will make them think twice before treating legal gun owners this way.

[USN CHIEF]

Why waste your time? You live in San Diego and this thread is rather old. There is no need to badger a gun store over what it does. If you don't like it, just don't buy anything from them. There is no need to send hate mail. Do something more constructive with your time.

You are right, I do live in San Diego but in the short time that I have been a member of CAL GUNS I adopted this community as part of my Family and when someone does something bad to my family, gloves are off and I just needed to email them and let them know what I felt of their way of doing bussiness with our fellow Cal Gunner.... :mad:

[duenor]

*warning... this is not a necropost!**

so... what happened to the guy's two handguns? I really want to know how this turned out.

OP, please PM me if you prefer.

[5968]

Tagged.

[M I K]

I don’t know for sure, but if you report the guns stolen you might not be able to DROS them at another dealer because they are now reported stolen.

Good Luck

If he also reported that the stolen guns were in fact being held at SAS, SAS would be in possesion of stolen property. Heh, heh.

[tenpercentfirearms]

i disagree also. i just read the whole thing too and sent them an email. it will make them think twice before treating legal gun owners this way.

We will see. I wouldn't hold your breath. A gun store that large with that many employees might just chalk this up to "crap happens". If I didn't do online sales and got an e-mail from a guy in San Diego saying he would never do business with me ever and tell all his friends, I probably would just laugh. Especially if I am already doing pretty good business for being the biggest and best known in town.

But hey, it is your time. Spend it how you want.

And no one better take this post as defending their actions (hell I don't even remember what this thread is about and will have to read the beginning again now). I hear stories about 2nd Amendment Sports on a near daily basis. I am just trying to place myself in their shoes if I were to start reading e-mails about an issue months old.

My guess is the guy reading the e-mail is going to push delete. If any of you get a response back, I would be interested in reading it as that would imply they read your e-mail and give a damn.

[tenpercentfirearms]

*warning... this is not a necropost!**

so... what happened to the guy's two handguns? I really want to know how this turned out.

OP, please PM me if you prefer.

The seller picked them up and the transaction was finished somewhere else.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=434197&postcount=119

[CSACANNONEER]

Did the seller pick them up without the dealer DROSing them back to the seller? If so, isn't this illegal? It's my understanding that once a seller puts a gun on consignment, if he wants it back, he has to reDROS it. Wouldn't this be true in a PPT once the first DROS was started?

[E Pluribus Unum]

We will see. I wouldn't hold your breath..

If you were to hold his breath, how would you do it?

[robbor]

I tried to buy from them a few months ago. I got a call from the owner from my first inquiry. The manager seemed to know his stuff. I called back a week later and told them to order me the gun. They said they would needed a CC number and had trouble locating the gun. After that they never would return a call.
I wont buy from them either.

[Fjold]

6 month Necro-post, not bad.

[pnkssbtz]

I tried to buy from them a few months ago. I got a call from the owner from my first inquiry. The manager seemed to know his stuff. I called back a week later and told them to order me the gun. They said they would needed a CC number and had trouble locating the gun. After that they never would return a call.
I wont buy from them either.

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f327/cesarhaha/forum%20replies/ThreadNecromancer.jpg

[Guntech]

I think they have opened themselves up to punitive damages, but I am not a lawyer.

One fun thing would be to print up a few hundred copies of your story and pay a bum 50 bucks to hang out outside the store for a few days distributing them to would-be shoppers.

Thats loitering and they will call the police, better to just put fliers up everywhere.

[Quake0]

Whats their email. We should all send a email telling them they lost are business.

[tenpercentfirearms]

Whats their email. We should all send a email telling them they lost are business.

Just make sure ewe czech your grammar first.

This thread are so old and they couldn't care lesser; don't waist your time.