PDA

View Full Version : Why the sport of shooting is doomed in California


wilit
12-14-2006, 6:12 PM
So i've been trying for the past 4 days or so to find a local FFL willing to do a transfer for a PA-63 from a fellow member in So-Cal to myself here in Nor-Cal. Very few were willing to do the transfer. Of the few I found, they wanted to charge an unacceptable (my feeling) non-negotiable amount for the little work they actually need to perform. Okay, that's cool. I can understand why an FFL would shy away from a transaction like that.

So, my backup plan, ask the FFL, "Can you order me one from Centerfire or J&G Sales?" Nope. No one willing to do that either. Most answers were, "It's not worth my time." One FFL even quiped, "I don't think it's even legal." When I mentioned it is indeed on the CA approved list, his reply was, "Oh, well, I don't keep up with that." WTF do you mean you don't keep up with what's on the CA legal list? You sell handguns in CA, you best keep up with what's on the list.

Okay, that's cool. You don't want to transfer either way, fine. It's your shop, you make the rules. I'm cool with that. However, you as a businessman should see the flaw in your business model. By not providing service, you have just created some negative advertising for youself in an endangered market. Also, you're not scoring points as far as word of mouth references with your BS elitist attitude. I'm 30 years old. I think I've aged enough to drop the "kid" moniker. Also, how about you say, "Hello, can I help you?" within the first 2 minutes of me walking in the door of your closet sized shop, rather than ignoring me for the better part of 10 minutes, and then becoming annoyed when I say, "excuse me, can you help me with something?" I don't understand why gun stores need to be staffed by grumpy old men with hollier-than-thou attitudes.

The key to keeping this sport alive in this anti-gun state is helpful, informative workers willing to provide 1950's-era service. I could only imagine how turned off by this whole experience a first time gun buyer would be.

So, can someone recommend where I can pick up a PA-63 in the East Bay?

DB2
12-14-2006, 6:44 PM
Okay, that's cool. You don't want to transfer either way, fine. It's your shop, you make the rules. I'm cool with that. However, you as a businessman should see the flaw in your business model. By not providing service, you have just created some negative advertising for youself in an endangered market. Also, you're not scoring points as far as word of mouth references with your BS elitist attitude. I'm 30 years old. I think I've aged enough to drop the "kid" moniker. Also, how about you say, "Hello, can I help you?" within the first 2 minutes of me walking in the door of your closet sized shop, rather than ignoring me for the better part of 10 minutes, and then becoming annoyed when I say, "excuse me, can you help me with something?" I don't understand why gun stores need to be staffed by grumpy old men with hollier-than-thou attitudes.

The key to keeping this sport alive in this anti-gun state is helpful, informative workers willing to provide 1950's-era service. I could only imagine how turned off by this whole experience a first time gun buyer would be. [/rant]

So, can someone recommend where I can pick up a PA-63 in the East Bay?


I thought that this was only me. There is a "shooting supplies" store here in the town I live. I ABSOLUTLY refuse to go in there and buy anything. They seem to be the most unhelpful bunch of people, I don't even see how they stay in business. Myself owning a business I don't understand the mentality of letting money walk out the door. If you have the chance to make a couple bucks do it! Most of the time the few minutes you take with a customer(looking or buying) will pay off repeatedly. I don't think most people see that any more.

Anyway,give Larry Hamby a call. He has Security Six, San Leandro. 1-925-443-6676. It's like 55 to 60 to transfer and that includes DROS. I don't think he has raised his price, and he seems to have no problem with transfer anything as long as it is on or off certain lists.:D

wilit
12-14-2006, 6:52 PM
get used to it untill you hit 40 you are still a kid to most gun stores.what is the unacceptable price?i just checked the roster and its the only feg thats listed.took maybe 10 seconds

I'm willing to spend $30+DROS for the transfer, not $50+DROS.

Also, I'll try Security Six. I didn't realize there was another shop in San Leandro.

DB2
12-14-2006, 7:07 PM
I'm willing to spend $30+DROS for the transfer, not $50+DROS.

Also, I'll try Security Six. I didn't realize there was another shop in San Leandro.
Not a shop. He runs out of the S.L.gun range. He teaches classes there. He does it as a service. Just make sure you call him first and don't go looking for him.:cool:

gose
12-14-2006, 7:07 PM
Have you tried Irvington Arms in Fremont?

Charliegone
12-14-2006, 7:30 PM
Sometimes I wonder why some gun store people are in this business because they like guns and like to help others find the gun for them...or they are just in it because they like to feel superior to others?:confused: I'm glad I have found some very decent ffls here in socal...took some finding but...found them. The first ffl I ever dealt with "only dealt with hunting rifles and with an attitude":rolleyes: ...he didn't really get much business by the way.

hoffmang
12-14-2006, 7:48 PM
Try Krausewerks in San Mateo. He'll certainly have his wholesalers bring one in for you and he'll give you a very good price on the import. Sometimes he'll do transfers as well.

-Gene

dwtt
12-14-2006, 8:01 PM
I don't know where you are located, but the small gun store in Santa Clara on Pomeroy is run by an old timer who will order a PA-63 for you. I remember going by there to look for a Makarov and he didn't have one in stock so he pulls out Shotgun News and looks up a few ads for the gun and does a quick calculation and told me the final price. If he's still in business and not retired yet, he seems like a good guy to go to.

Lambchop
12-14-2006, 9:47 PM
Definatly try Irvington arms in Fremont! I am 22 and they have always been extremly helpful with all of my gun shop needs. They are my go to gunshop...it takes alot for me to buy somewhere else.

Dr. Peter Venkman
12-14-2006, 10:15 PM
I don't know where you are located, but the small gun store in Santa Clara on Pomeroy is run by an old timer who will order a PA-63 for you. I remember going by there to look for a Makarov and he didn't have one in stock so he pulls out Shotgun News and looks up a few ads for the gun and does a quick calculation and told me the final price. If he's still in business and not retired yet, he seems like a good guy to go to.

Roger's Relics ftw.

ocabj
12-15-2006, 7:20 AM
I think gun dealer service has taken a dive in the past several years, but also, the number of gun dealers has also dropped. While this does affect shooting sports, I think the fact that people don't actually go out and shoot is dooming shooting sports in California more than the poor FFL service.

For the most part, I think the general public sees guns more for protection than they do a sport. Lots of people I talk to always mention they are interested in buying a handgun for the home, but I never hear someone say, "I want to buy a handgun/rifle/shotgun so I can compete in matches" or "I want to buy a gun so I can go to the shooting range and target shoot."

BigMac
12-15-2006, 7:41 AM
You just haven't met a dealer thats still hungry..

Comon up to the Bay Area and I'll handle it ;)

bwiese
12-15-2006, 8:52 AM
I wish folks'd stop complaining that people 'won't' do something, when it's just that they're too f**king cheap.

Every biz has a different cost structure, and it's a ***** to be a gun dealer - safety inspections, storage requirements, differing Fed & state laws, arbitrary & capricious DOJ "enforcement".

Non-PPT handgun transfers take up salesman time, esp due to the 'safety demo test'. [Regular PPTs are the worst because of mandated fees w/o regard to actual costs.] At $50, the dealer might have a chance. After heat lights & insurance & staff overhead (workmen's comp, etc.) I doubt if there's more than a loose $10 in a $50 FFL transfer fee.

If you're complaining about another man's cost of business, ever think about your getting an FFL, a COE, get a biz license, deal w/zoning issues? You'll have a whole different thought.

I always say that if you can't afford something, it's *your* fault- you made the wrong career choices, didn't acquire the relevant skills/knowledge to improve your lot, etc. Don't blame other folks for your problems.

M1A Rifleman
12-15-2006, 9:07 AM
There are two places in Livermore that will handle FFL issues. One place is Dom's, but I bet you will gripe at their price - about $90 last I asked. The other place is the small gun shop off Main Street, just north of 1st. He wants $30 for use of his FFL.

cseabass
12-15-2006, 10:08 AM
There are two places in Livermore that will handle FFL issues. One place is Dom's, but I bet you will gripe at their price - about $90 last I asked. The other place is the small gun shop off Main Street, just north of 1st. He wants $30 for use of his FFL.


american outdoor is a terrible shop, they have lost more business due to a co-owner than you would believe. they lost out on over 15 grand worth of firearms from me personally.

the White richard is an awesome guy. the asian, is a cock. plain and simple.(why they could be free and i wouldnt go there) this is a fairly common consensus in livermore too.


matt over at doms will likely get you one, but you have to buck up and pay the fees. they have to turn a buck too.

i miss waynes gun shop and gary... damn i loved that place!
irvington arms are cool cats, i bounce between them, doms(for handguns), and reeds indoor range(i wont go to the store. the range guys are AWESOME!)

M1A Rifleman
12-15-2006, 10:25 AM
american outdoor is a terrible shop, they have lost more business due to a co-owner than you would believe. they lost out on over 15 grand worth of firearms from me personally.

the White richard is an awesome guy. the asian, is a cock. plain and simple.(why they could be free and i wouldnt go there) this is a fairly common consensus in livermore too.


matt over at doms will likely get you one, but you have to buck up and pay the fees. they have to turn a buck too.

i miss waynes gun shop and gary... damn i loved that place!
irvington arms are cool cats, i bounce between them, doms(for handguns), and reeds indoor range(i wont go to the store. the range guys are AWESOME!)

That's the shop off Main I was thinking off - American Outdoors. Personally, I would not buy any guns (which isn't many) he has in stock, as I have seen how he handles them, and they would for sure have scratches and dings, but I would think ordering soemthing would be OK. He also has reloading supplies. As for "Waynes", I thought they were WAY over priced, so I was only in there twice.

cseabass
12-15-2006, 10:46 AM
That's the shop off Main I was thinking off - American Outdoors. Personally, I would not buy any guns (which isn't many) he has in stock, as I have seen how he handles them, and they would for sure have scratches and dings, but I would think ordering soemthing would be OK. He also has reloading supplies. As for "Waynes", I thought they were WAY over priced, so I was only in there twice.


i got stuff at decent prices from Gary. he was one of the most knowledgable gun dealers i have ever met, plus being a class 3 dealer he was also showing me fun toys.(i use toys loosely of course)

M1A Rifleman
12-15-2006, 10:53 AM
i got stuff at decent prices from Gary. he was one of the most knowledgable gun dealers i have ever met, plus being a class 3 dealer he was also showing me fun toys.(i use toys loosely of course)

Not to hijack the thread, I admit he was helpful when I had a Colt Sporter problem, and I recall seeing him at Reno with Class 3's. What happend to him/the shop. Is it anywhere in CA?

Other shops in East Bay may include: the new "knife/Gun shop in Dublin off Dublin Blvd. However, he only seems to have knives and has been saying for 3yrs that he will get the FL in two weeks??

The "new" Castro Valley Gun Shop - called him over Thanksgiving and he stated he would have his FFL by December. Also the other small shop in Castro Valley - Andretti Firearms (sp?).

cseabass
12-15-2006, 11:01 AM
He moved to Carson City and started "Westwall Militaria" i believe.

his site is down, but heres an address and phone number for the shop.
Westwall Militaria
Military antiques & collectibles
Address: 412 N. Curry St.
Phone: 775-885-7643


to get back on subject what were the shops Wilit went to and was shot down at?

SigShooter
12-15-2006, 11:12 AM
Try http://www.gunbroker.com/User/DealerNetwork.asp There are a lot of "kitchen" FFLs listed in there that will do transfers on the cheap. I found one that will do transfers (long gun and handgun) for $40. He did say that he may be raising his prices next year...

koiloco
12-15-2006, 11:59 AM
I don't know where you are located, but the small gun store in Santa Clara on Pomeroy is run by an old timer who will order a PA-63 for you. I remember going by there to look for a Makarov and he didn't have one in stock so he pulls out Shotgun News and looks up a few ads for the gun and does a quick calculation and told me the final price. If he's still in business and not retired yet, he seems like a good guy to go to.

That's Roger you are referring to. Both Roger and his wife are just the sweetest people you can do business with.

here is their phone number: 408-247-5379

Call them first and find out how much they will charge for the transaction. Everyone has to make a living as long as it is within acceptable range.

wilit
12-15-2006, 5:30 PM
I wish folks'd stop complaining that people 'won't' do something, when it's just that they're too f**king cheap.



First off, this thread was not meant to come off as me being a cheap bastard not willing to spend $50 for a transfer but more about the lack of customer service in a market that already has public image issues. It's by no means a question of being cheap, but more a question about being overcharged for a service. I mean, come on, when all is said and done, after paying the transfer fee, DROS, tax, and shipping, I've essentially paid $150 in fees for a $125 gun. And when I said, most shops wanted to charge $50 for the transfer, I was being optimistic, it was really only one shop that wanted to charge $50, but he was still hesitant on doing the PPT. The 2 other shops willing to do it wanted $90-$125. I also said I was okay with them not doing the transfer. It's their shop, their rules, but you have to know as a business person, you can't just let a potential customer walk out of the store without even trying to upsell something you have on the shelf. Not one who said no even attempted that.

As for what shops I went to, most were in driving range from my home and work that I could hit before they closed. So most included the Concord/Walnut Creek/Hayward/Castro Valley area. I know I should've gone to Irvinton Arms, I bought my 1911 there, and they're great guys. I just couldn't make it down there after work before they closed.

Also, I finally found an FFL willing to transfer me a PA-63 from an internet source. I have to recommend Chuck from Contra Costa Collectibles on Cypress St in Walnut Creek. He originally quoted me $125 and gave an explanation why it was that much (thank you, you're the first to speak to me like an adult). He then showed me a Makarov he had on the shelf, and while I was checking it out, said, "Alright, I'll do it for $50." I gave him the copy of the Shotgun News I had which had the advertisement for the PA-63. I think he might even order 1 or 2 extras to keep on the shelf. :)

Thanks for everyone's suggestions on FFL's!

asintado
12-15-2006, 8:04 PM
That's really unfortunate that your FFLs don't give a damn about being up to date with the roster. When I inquired about C&R and getting a CZ52 or Mak w/ my FFL he informed me about the hungarian models (although not C&R) and even gave me a link to a site that had some great deals on them. My guy isn't a full time FFL but he takes it just as seriously as his day job.

radiotube
12-15-2006, 9:24 PM
I hear ya. For a group of individuals who should be very close knit, gun store owners tend to be a bunch of *****s. NOT ALL...granted, but a lot that I have been around. Luckily I have one who I know personally and he's a good guy...always busy as hell...but he's a good guy. I'm in the middle of forming my own thing right now to give likeminded folks what they deserve.

Probably because the gun store owners that weren't a bunch of *****s were long ago driven out of business in California.

wilit
12-15-2006, 9:42 PM
Probably because the gun store owners that weren't a bunch of *****s were long ago driven out of business in California.

This is probably an extremely true statement.

Turbinator
12-16-2006, 6:16 AM
Definatly try Irvington arms in Fremont! I am 22 and they have always been extremly helpful with all of my gun shop needs. They are my go to gunshop...it takes alot for me to buy somewhere else.

The fact that you're 22 is all the more reason to provide you top notch service. You still have years left of earnings, promotions, bonuses, and purchases to make, and if Irvington earns your business now, he locks all of that in for the future. Never feel like you're less of a customer because of your younger age, business owners need to work hard to capture ALL of the market because you just never know who's got the money and who doesn't. Looks or age alone is not an indicator.

Turby