CA DOJ Firearms Division an illegal conspiracy?

[hoffmang]

All,

Bill's thread on FFL intimidation got me thinking and looking at Federal Law. Take a look at:
18 U.S.C. § 241 (http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/crim/241fin.htm)

The law states:

TITLE 18, U.S.C., SECTION 241

If two or more persons conspire to injure, oppress, threaten, or intimidate any person in any State, Territory, Commonwealth, Possession, or District in the free exercise or enjoyment of any right or privilege secured to him by the Constitution or laws of the United States, or because of his having so exercised the same;...

They shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and if death results from the acts committed in violation of this section or if such acts include kidnapping or an attempt to kidnap, aggravated sexual abuse or an attempt to commit aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to kill, they shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for any term of years or for life, or both, or may be sentenced to death.


An indictment could charge the defendants with conspiring to deprive inhabitants of California of their Constitutional rights (1) to be free from the intentional deprivation of property without due process of law in violation of 18 U.S.C. § 241.

CA DOJ Firearms meets the defined proofs necessary:

1. At least Alison Merilees and Iggy Chin are involved in attempting to thwart lawful commerce and possession of property with false or misleading statements. It takes two to make a conspiracy.

2. Alison and others have attempted to use the color of law to pass regulations that they know or should have known they do not have the authority to pass. Further, Alison and others have personally intimidated FFL holders in California to deprive them of interstate commerce and property rights by making false statements under the color of law.

3. The victims of this crime are all California Residents. Some are residents of other states who had the Conspirators deprive them of property illegally under color of law.

4. Alison and others acted willfully and with the intent to deprive FFL's and others of their property while Alison and the other Conspirators knew or should have known that the conduct, property, and commerce in question was at all times legal in California.

Those are the 4 requisites to prove a violation of 18 U.S.C. § 241. I have the letters with her signature on them on my hard drive. And that's before more have been pulled into the conspiracy and threatened FFLs at their place of business in recent days.

Troubling, huh?

-Gene

[blkA4alb]

I love it.

[thmpr]

Gene,
If your serious about this, it should be presented to the NRA and MT. I am for it if it does hold true. I believe everyone here is fed up with their tactics and harrassments!!!

Please keep us informed...!

[jmlivingston]

I'll go way out on a limb with this one, but could this be a systemic activity possibly construed as racketeering providing civil liability under the RICO act?

[hoffmang]

I need to check if Section 241 can be a base charge for a RICO.

-Gene

[PanzerAce]

wow....this has some scary implications. After all, it seems to me that if this is credible, why not go after the ATF as well?

[hoffmang]

The difference is that ATF doesn't have a pattern of lying about the law. Not perfectly and correctly keeping records is sadly against the law. Transferring OLL's is quite legal.

-Gene

[Ragweed]

That is great stuff. If this thing gets further along, how can we get the press involved?

[1911_sfca]

My first reaction is that this is reactionary, calm down.

Then I read the law a bit more and I think, wow, there is something here... ouch!!

[11Z50]

All,

Bill's thread on FFL intimidation got me thinking and looking at Federal Law. Take a look at:
18 U.S.C. § 241 (http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/crim/241fin.htm)

The law states:


An indictment could charge the defendants with conspiring to deprive inhabitants of California of their Constitutional rights (1) to be free from the intentional deprivation of property without due process of law in violation of 18 U.S.C. § 241.

CA DOJ Firearms meets the defined proofs necessary:

1. At least Alison Merilees and Iggy Chin are involved in attempting to thwart lawful commerce and possession of property with false or misleading statements. It takes two to make a conspiracy.

2. Alison and others have attempted to use the color of law to pass regulations that they know or should have known they do not have the authority to pass. Further, Alison and others have personally intimidated FFL holders in California to deprive them of interstate commerce and property rights by making false statements under the color of law.

3. The victims of this crime are all California Residents. Some are residents of other states who had the Conspirators deprive them of property illegally under color of law.

4. Alison and others acted willfully and with the intent to deprive FFL's and others of their property while Alison and the other Conspirators knew or should have known that the conduct, property, and commerce in question was at all times legal in California.

Those are the 4 requisites to prove a violation of 18 U.S.C. § 241. I have the letters with her signature on them on my hard drive. And that's before more have been pulled into the conspiracy and threatened FFLs at their place of business in recent days.

Troubling, huh?

-Gene

Funny.....
I have Client/Defendants who have been imprisoned in the Fresno County Jail, under Federal Indictment, for much less. Some have actually been released after discourse.

The only flaw is you'll have to find an agency that will submit a complaint to the AUSA that names the Iggster and Ms Allison. Not likely.

[Sutcliffe]

I doubt anybody would take it seriously. It would set a dangerous precedent where criminal acts committed by public servants would be punishable. It won't happen.
More's the pity.

[hoffmang]

11Z50 hits the issue on the head, but I'm not so sure its as much of a stretch to find a sympathetic Federal Agent to refer it to an AUSA.

Here is a sample memorandum from DOJ on the law in question:
http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/eousa/foia_reading_room/usam/title8/cvr00135.htm

That case is certainly far more heinous, but the truth is that two or more members of CA DOJ Firearms are violating the law. The letter Alison sent interfering with Wes's purchase of legal lower receivers in interstate commerce is plenty of tangible evidence that she used the color of law to violate Wes's property rights and due process when she knew or should have known that Wes's transaction was "technically" legal (her term.)

-Gene

[Rumpled]

Kinda reminds me of a lawyer using RICO against HB police I think it was for their radar speed traps. Don't remember what came of it.

[aileron]

Do you think if the 5th Circuit Court in DC finds the 2nd to be an individual right that it would help the cause for violation of the constitutional rights of the defendants as called out in 18 U.S.C. § 241?

Though I keep thinking they might decide there is no need for the militia, wiping out the meaning of the people in one fell swoop, destroying the constitution. :(

[tiki]

I think a citizens arrest would be funny.

[Wulf]

I think a citizens arrest would be funny.

If you got away with it it would be funny as hell, but more than likely you'd be arrested in the attempt...but that would be good too cause you'd be adding another party to your conspiracy.

[SemiAutoSam]

I would love to be the one to slap the cuffs on AM & IC but the 2nd aforementioned name is quite muscle bound and it might take several of us in concert to accomplish this task.

We could always use duct tape and wrap him like a mummy.

[aileron]

I would love to be the one to slap the cuffs on AM & IC but the 2nd aforementioned name is quite muscle bound and it might take several of us in concert to accomplish this task.

We could always use duct tape and wrap him like a mummy.


It would be best to arrest him/her in the presence of a peace officers, who would cuff him/her if you had the right to arrest them for a charge.

I believe this is unwise... just file a suit unless there is political reasons that are far reaching for doing this. Otherwise it would most likely backfire and hurt your case.

[leelaw]

I would love to be the one to slap the cuffs on AM & IC but the 2nd aforementioned name is quite muscle bound and it might take several of us in concert to accomplish this task.

We could always use duct tape and wrap him like a mummy.

Careful - he might think you're a beligerent piece of office furniture and open fire!

[slowjonn]

I doubt anybody would take it seriously. It would set a dangerous precedent where criminal acts committed by public servants would be punishable. It won't happen.
More's the pity.

It may not happen like that but maybe it could result in a Federal overwatch decree much like LAPD and Riverside PD have in place. :confused: Let the Feds monitor Cal DOJ's actions. Perhaps the lesser of two evils?

[pc_city]

The Brady bunch is also a party to the conspiracy.

[sierratangofoxtrotunion]

I'm positive that RICO can apply: these two are affecting interstate commerce, in writing, no less.

Gene, I love what you come up with. It's clear that you have to deal with legal bs regularly in your professional position.

[50 Freak]

Anyone know the phone number of the nearest US attorney? I think the 700 area code is used for the federal telephone system (maybe only within the federal telephone system), so try 700-555-1212.

By the way, I'm kidding about the phone number. I'm not kidding about someone who has connections trying to talk to federal prosecutors.


Hey my best buddy is a Federal Prosecuter......

[jnojr]

It would be best to arrest him/her in the presence of a peace officers, who would cuff him/her if you had the right to arrest them for a charge.


Not exectly.

I don't know what powers of arrest a US citizen (or Californian) have for violations of Federal law. That's the first item.

Second, we as private citizens have nearly identical powers of arrest as law enforcement officers, so yes, technically, we could arrest them. A CA LEO is required to accept custody of someone who has been placed under arrest, but once they've done so, they have no further obligations. They can simply release said person if they so desire.

Placing any law enforcement official under arrest is going to be a pretty dicey situation. No other LEO would side with the arrester. The arrester would be beaten down and probably killed, and nothing would ever be done about it.

The only way it could work would be a large group effecting the arrest in public. Even then, you could easily wind up with a bloody firefight... no LEO is going to allow himself or a brother officer to be "arrested" by regular citizens.

[aileron]

Not exectly.



Placing any law enforcement official under arrest is going to be a pretty dicey situation. No other LEO would side with the arrester. The arrester would be beaten down and probably killed, and nothing would ever be done about it.



I meant you had called for one and they had agreed to the violation and would take custody. Not that you found one there standing by. My mistake. And yea... it would probably be impossible to find such an officer.

[RJ Dunn]

Hoffmang I hear something outside your door, do you hear that. Hide your furniture it's iggy.

[ravenbkp]

Don't hold your breath guys remember banners and libs are at root frequently hypocrites, a felony for you is "duty" for them! you will need ta find someplace where you can hire your own prosecutor before this could go forward and i'm not even certain you can do that in california.,

[ravenbkp]

maybe ya could sue alleging a violation of title 18? that might be easier?

[5968]

I think that today is the first time that i have thought about Kali gun laws and actually had a smile on my face. Thanks guys.

[hoffmang]

If Ignatius Chin would like to come visit, I'll happily offer him a tasty libation while he stands on my front patio and we chat about life, the universe, and everything. :)

-Gene

[Scarecrow Repair]

remember banners and libs are at root frequently hypocrites, a felony for you is "duty" for them!
Like that famous lib Oliver North.

[LAK Supply]

Gene - I think that, crazy as it may sound, you may be on to something here . While it is unlikely that you would find a fellow LEO to arrest either of these two, there may be an outside chance that a federal attorney would at least look at the case.
One thing's for sure, there would have to be much public exposure to prompt any action. Once the "cat is out of the bag," :D it is much more difficult to push something under the rug.
As well, a civil suit could be very effective. I was just reading about a case in MA that was recently brought against the legislators of that state. A pro-marriage group is suing the legislators by name for something like $5mil in damages plus $500k for legal fees.
Although the people there vote for a marriage (man+woman) amendment, the legislature kills it one way or another; this group has apparently become tired of this. I'm not sure of all the details as I just skimmed the article, but it would be interesting to see what happens in this case.
It is most definitely time that officials (elected and appointed) are held PERSONALLY responsible for their actions. If they are hurt where it counts (their job, public image, and their $$), they will think twice before making up the law as they go.
Who do you recommend that we call about this? I would be willing to contact the appropriate people and ask for action on these grounds.

[hoffmang]

I think that the best answer is that if one has a friend in the US Attorney's office or at BATF or FBI, one should explain some of the facts and point them to this analysis.

Add in the Milpitas group buy nonsense and its even more proof that there is a conspiracy to deny Californians their property rights.

-Gene

[tiki]

the 2nd aforementioned name is quite muscle bound and it might take several of us in concert to accomplish this task.


Ha Ha Ha.

[Archenemy550]

Careful - he might think you're a beligerent piece of office furniture and open fire!
hahaha
that made my day :)

[MrLogan]

Do it!

[RANGER295]

Doing something like this sounds almost too good to be true. I think you would have a hard time finding anyone to make the arrest or prosecute. Are there any members here who are LEO’s that would be willing to partake?

Secondly, call me paranoid, but Gene, do you have those files that you say are on your hard drive backed up? If not you should back them up and keep a copy locked somewhere safe and give a second copy to someone you trust that is at another location just in case something were to happen to you. The same goes for anyone else that has something like this.

[pnkssbtz]

Secondly, call me paranoid, but Gene, do you have those files that you say are on your hard drive backed up? If not you should back them up and keep a copy locked somewhere safe and give a second copy to someone you trust that is at another location just in case something were to happen to you. The same goes for anyone else that has something like this.

+1

I would burn a CD and mail it to someone in a USPS envelope postmarked... (poor mans way to notorize proof of date of material)


Hardcopy AND Digital.

[aileron]

1. At least Alison Merilees and Iggy Chin are involved in attempting to thwart lawful commerce and possession of property with false or misleading statements. It takes two to make a conspiracy.



Wouldnt this also be included as having been violated?

Title 18, U.S.C., Section 1001
Fraud and False Statements

* United States Code
o TITLE 18 - CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
+ PART I - CRIMES
# CHAPTER 47 - FRAUD AND FALSE STATEMENTS

U.S. Code as of: 01/02/01
Section 1001. Statements or entries generally

(a) Except as otherwise provided in this section, whoever, in any matter within the jurisdiction of the executive, legislative, or judicial branch of the Government of the United States, knowingly and willfully -
(1) falsifies, conceals, or covers up by any trick, scheme, or device a material fact;
(2) makes any materially false, fictitious, or fraudulent statement or representation; or
(3) makes or uses any false writing or document knowing the same to contain any materially false, fictitious, or fraudulent statement or entry; shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both.


Not a lawyer, but does that apply as well? Because this is federal, right? And were talking state. Does this apply to state as well?

[Yankee Clipper]

Gene- As I posted on 10/23/06 re the SJPD bust, with the help of CADOJ, there was the possibility of treading on RICO issues then too:
But if there is a pattern of false arrest with the collusion of multiple agencies (SJPD, Cal DOJ, OCSD, etc.) are there laws being broken under the color of authority? Is the intention of these arrests to bankrupt legal gun owners (to say nothing of the illegal and indefinite deprivation of a fortune of gun property) and send that message to the rest of our community? Is this continual pattern of arrest, when it’s obvious that no laws are broken, going to end up being investigated by federal DOJ for violating the RICO act of 1970?
This just re-enforces your post: an insidious pattern has been developed by the CADOJ and it is, minimally, extra-legal.

[artherd]

Gene, this may be one of several remedies to pursue, good work.

[hoffmang]

Aileron,

You are correct that they are also violating that federal statute.

Ranger,

The docs in question are on my hard drive and on at least two other hard drives of folks who frequent this board. Also, I'm pretty sure that between Wes and Ben/Artherd, they have a pair of letters that shows that proof.

Further Ranger, I can afford a legal team superior to the State of California. I will be at worst inconvenienced and I have backups.

-Gene

[dychen]

I would love to see this on the TV, the CADOJ just getting slammed by the federal government over a firearm issue.

Out of all the ideas i've heard on here, this has to be the greatest, once the ball is rolling, i'll throw a little funding towards the cause.

[Fate]

You could even call the movement, "Putting JUSTICE back in the DoJ!"

[NoTime2Shoot]

Excuse my ignorance, but are there any donation buckets for the current or foreseen lawsuits?

[artherd]

One of my industries is information technology, specifically for the government. It is actually rather funny, Alison does not realize just exactly how straight a shooter she is messing with. Try and fine some burried landmines from 10,000feet in the dark sometime without me, won't happen. Yet I am putting it in the hands of our servicemen even while she plots with the Bradys.

I've got backups of backups in places and people DOJ has never heard of. Frankly I hope they make an illegal grab for my information, that would put icing on the cake that is a federal trial.

Plus, Alison has made most of what we would need public domain in any event.

The bottom line hould this hyopthetical scenario play out;
my attorneys are better, DOJ will loose if they let it come that far.


PS: If you're not paranoid you're not paying attention!

Doing something like this sounds almost too good to be true. I think you would have a hard time finding anyone to make the arrest or prosecute. Are there any members here who are LEO’s that would be willing to partake?

Secondly, call me paranoid, but Gene, do you have those files that you say are on your hard drive backed up? If not you should back them up and keep a copy locked somewhere safe and give a second copy to someone you trust that is at another location just in case something were to happen to you. The same goes for anyone else that has something like this.

[DougH9]

This idea of bringing justice to the DOJ makes me very happy; good job to those actively pursueing this.

If funding is needed for legal fees and research, I am sure that many of us would be willing to contribute what we can.

Even if charges do not stick, the fact that we noticed and made an organized and professional effort should have some effect on her thought processes. And maybe, this will cause her to think twice before sending out her flying monkees again.

[JOEKILLA]

I'm on standby, just waiting for a post to tell us howto help :D

[EvolutionGSR]

This is just great to hear. Even if we are not able to make a case of this, we are finally on the offensive.

[MisterDudeManGuy]

What is the political bias on the Bill Handel or John and Ken shows - 640AM talk radio? They are vociferous and without parallel WRT getting a hold of an issue and broadcasting the spit out of it. I'd think they would be pro-2A, given their viewpoints on other topics. Especially controversial topics like this.

Why not try this in the court of public opinion, so as to force the hand of the legal system? If it stinks enough, they will have to act, or become a party to the conspiracy (in public opinion). That's the sort of thing that affects election results.

I'd think that some smart politico would see it as an opportunity.

[jumbopanda]

What is the political bias on the Bill Handel or John and Ken shows - 640AM talk radio?

I'd say the three of them are libertarian.

[SemiAutoSam]

I approached KFI640 and spoke to a woman there about the AM E-Mail fiasco and she sounded like the was interested I went so far as to E-Mail her the links to the threads in question and to the E-Mails as well she never got back to me or answered e mails that I sent to her.

anyone want her name I will copy the e mails that were sent to the forum if the Kest or the mods have no objections.

[MisterDudeManGuy]

I approached KFI640 and spoke to a woman there about the AM E-Mail fiasco and she sounded like the was interested I went so far as to E-Mail her the links to the threads in question and to the E-Mails as well she never got back to me or answered e mails that I sent to her.

anyone want her name I will copy the e mails that were sent to the forum if the Kest or the mods have no objections.

The same confusion that we all deal with is likely a problem for them too. Unassisted,they are likely to not be able to make sense of all of it. For those who aren't in the trenches, it probably is too confusing to get a grip. We need a well-spoken, highly credible liason to help them see.

[Ed8756]

I would try Larry Elder AM790. Hes a Libertarian and I think he would take this issue on his show.

[jumbopanda]

I would try Larry Elder AM790. Hes a Libertarian and I think he would take this issue on his show.

+1, Larry kicks ***.

[jester]

I DEFINATLY agree on Larry Elder. He IS PRO-gun, and has the forum to voice opinion to a very large audience.
He was a key speaker at the GPRC last year in LA with his Mom(RIP)
He is vocal on his 2nd stance. I'd be willing to bet he'd take this on with the right push...

[JALLEN]

The Radio Mayor, Roger Hedgecock, seems to be quite pro-gun, the 3 - 6 pm slot on KFMB 760 in Sandy Eggo.

He got fairly worked up over the Del Mar Race Track Commission not allowing off-duty LEOs to carry their weapons inside the fairgrounds during the fair, and eventually helped back them down.

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

What about the Savage Nation?

[stag1500]

Savage is so obnoxious that he might end up hurting our cause.

[RANGER295]

Someone should make up a press release of sorts that we can give out to radio talk show hosts in our area. It should be a coordinated effort and there should be a couple of contacts that the hosts could interview.

[rocknut]

I would also be willing to donate time and/or $$ if someone found a way to set this ball rolling. Unfortunately I don't have the knowledge of how to make it happen myself.

[SemiAutoSam]

We have too many Idiots in this state thats why and most of those idiots happen to be democrats.

As long as the soccer moms have their SUV'S and Joe six pack has his Monday night football and TV Dinner. nothing will change.

They are the ones that traded security for freedom and they are living very happily with it.


“The right is absolute … government has no authority to forbid me from owning a firearm … the debate is not about guns. It is about freedom.” - Cal. State Sen. Tom McClintock, 6/9/2001
So why is it again this guy wasn't elected?