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Uriah02
06-01-2011, 1:43 PM
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/the-usas-m4-carbine-controversy-03289/

Not trying to stir the GP vs DI pool again, this article has an interesting look into the weapons and the political side of the Army's rifle.

*Bonus - there are enough sub articles to keep any fanboy going for a least an hour or more.

stormy_clothing
06-01-2011, 2:07 PM
the political side is this - there isnt enough money to loot in a small arms contract for them to care two ****s about it.

I'd put real money up in any test against an off the shelf acr vs a military issue m4 - the fact is the enemy has the ak47 and it's a better weapon for urban combat overall.

Scott Connors
06-01-2011, 2:11 PM
It astounds me that the bureaucracy refuses even to consider the simplest fix to the M4. Most of the problems with the M4 can be traced to overly-violent extraction due to the change in dwell time between rifle and carbine-length gas systems, and this is a problem that has been dealt with very successfully by mid-length gas systems. Why not consider the following?
1. Mid-length gas system
2. Ionbond or Nickel Boron-coated BCG
3. LMT improved bolt and carrier or KAC SR15E3 bolt design
4. VLTOR A5 buttstock assembly

These are all off-the-shelf components that are known to work. But considering it took the Army 20 years to adopt the five-coil extractor spring, I'm not holding my breath.

RRichie09
06-01-2011, 4:08 PM
It astounds me that the bureaucracy refuses even to consider the simplest fix to the M4. Most of the problems with the M4 can be traced to overly-violent extraction due to the change in dwell time between rifle and carbine-length gas systems, and this is a problem that has been dealt with very successfully by mid-length gas systems. Why not consider the following?
1. Mid-length gas system
2. Ionbond or Nickel Boron-coated BCG
3. LMT improved bolt and carrier or KAC SR15E3 bolt design
4. VLTOR A5 buttstock assembly

These are all off-the-shelf components that are known to work. But considering it took the Army 20 years to adopt the five-coil extractor spring, I'm not holding my breath.

I have never since any hard evidence that ionbonding or NBC coatings can improve reliability. I am not arguing with you, just would like to learn. Could you please back up your claim?


The next two points are arguements (not the yelling kind haha)
1) How would a Vltor A5 stock improve the M4's reliability in dusty/sandy conditions?

2) I was under the impression that a midlength gas system on a 14.5" barrel doesn't improve reliability but reduces recoil. Also, if in fact the system is over gased due to the carbine gas system wouldn't a cheap fix be to increase the buffer weight?

pyro3k2
06-01-2011, 5:59 PM
I have never since any hard evidence that ionbonding or NBC coatings can improve reliability. I am not arguing with you, just would like to learn. Could you please back up your claim?


The next two points are arguements (not the yelling kind haha)
1) How would a Vltor A5 stock improve the M4's reliability in dusty/sandy conditions?

2) I was under the impression that a midlength gas system on a 14.5" barrel doesn't improve reliability but reduces recoil. Also, if in fact the system is over gased due to the carbine gas system wouldn't a cheap fix be to increase the buffer weight?

The A5 stock is meant to help combat the issues with the M4 being out of timed due to the shorter gas system, it alone will fix many issues but wont solve them all. Thats where the Mid-lenght gas system comes into play. The middy won't solve all the dwell issues but when combined with the A5 it proves to be a very rock solid combo. The cheap fix of a heavy buffer is exactly that a cheap fix. If your *** was on the line would you feel safe with a cheap fix? The Mid-lenght does more than just reduce recoil, it also slows the timing down and brings the timing closer to a rifle lenght gas system. Fix the problem the first time and with the appropriate equipment and chances are you will avoid any future issues.

RRichie09
06-01-2011, 6:42 PM
The A5 stock is meant to help combat the issues with the M4 being out of timed due to the shorter gas system, it alone will fix many issues but wont solve them all. Thats where the Mid-lenght gas system comes into play. The middy won't solve all the dwell issues but when combined with the A5 it proves to be a very rock solid combo. The cheap fix of a heavy buffer is exactly that a cheap fix. If your *** was on the line would you feel safe with a cheap fix? The Mid-lenght does more than just reduce recoil, it also slows the timing down and brings the timing closer to a rifle lenght gas system. Fix the problem the first time and with the appropriate equipment and chances are you will avoid any future issues.

Ahh I see. I was under the impression that a 14.5" barrel and carbine gas system produced the same dwell time as a 20" barrel with rifle length gas system and that the midlength gas system was invented to match a 16" barrel.

Thinking of it intuitively your explaination does make since though because a carbine 14.5 and a rifle 20 have the same length between the muzzle and gas port but obviously the pressure will be greater in the carbine.

blazeaglory
06-01-2011, 6:50 PM
so what everyone is saying is that carbines have a greater chance of "jamming" over a mid length system? is the jamming problem that big of a deal and does it happen that often? i mean, in a regular range type rapid fire, not in the desert or war.. and dont say "if yer *** was on the line", i mean doeas anyone have actual experience on the overall odds and a comparison?

ive never fired a carbine yet:( only an AK, and that was no problem

where is dieselpower?:D

EDIT: after reading the article...damn THAT WAS a good article...now i want a galil:D and i want to upgrade to a gas piston system on my M4. why the hell didnt colt just use a pitons system to begin with? nah, ill just save the cash and buy an AK, keep it on my back, and when my carbine fails, start shooting the AK;)

pyro3k2
06-01-2011, 6:59 PM
Ahh I see. I was under the impression that a 14.5" barrel and carbine gas system produced the same dwell time as a 20" barrel with rifle length gas system and that the midlength gas system was invented to match a 16" barrel.

Thinking of it intuitively your explaination does make since though because a carbine 14.5 and a rifle 20 have the same length between the muzzle and gas port but obviously the pressure will be greater in the carbine.

DISCLAIMER: This video was selected because of the aminations and info given. I don't own ANY POF products nor am I attempting to advertise for them, this video just fit the bill.

Skip to 1:50 for the meat and potato's
2LltApvOC0U

pyro3k2
06-01-2011, 9:11 PM
so what everyone is saying is that carbines have a greater chance of "jamming" over a mid length system? is the jamming problem that big of a deal and does it happen that often? i mean, in a regular range type rapid fire, not in the desert or war.. and dont say "if yer *** was on the line", i mean doeas anyone have actual experience on the overall odds and a comparison?

ive never fired a carbine yet:( only an AK, and that was no problem

where is dieselpower?:D

EDIT: after reading the article...damn THAT WAS a good article...now i want a galil:D and i want to upgrade to a gas piston system on my M4. why the hell didnt colt just use a pitons system to begin with? nah, ill just save the cash and buy an AK, keep it on my back, and when my carbine fails, start shooting the AK;)

While I was deployed I noticed the non-shooter induced stoppages of the M4 where much higher than the full sized m16. These included FTE, FTF, over heating and double feeds. When switching over to the M16's obviously same shooters, same ammo, same magazines, and same environmental conditions the problems almost went away. There were still issues but the frequency was far less.

The origional posts of mine where in context to why the government doesn't just use the off the shelf equipment that has been developed to make the M4 more reliable in combat and with our troops so the statement,"if it was your *** on the line." is a valid one. Someone's *** is on the line and could very well be saved with some fixes to the platform and not just the cheap ones either. The point I was trying to drive home was we have the technology to fix it correctly the first time and maybe we can bring more of our boys home safely.

RRichie09
06-01-2011, 10:10 PM
DISCLAIMER: This video was selected because of the aminations and info given. I don't own ANY POF products nor am I attempting to advertise for them, this video just fit the bill.


Thanks, very informative video though. Atleast to the short comings of the M4.

A lot of people here seem to agree that modifying the existing AR-15 design is the route to take to improve reliability and also the most cost effective but I feel that a open competition, called for by the author of the linked article, is the best option here. Colt could even submit a improved M4 for the competition.

Also, isn't anyone upset about Colt possibiliy war profiteering? Or is this just the way that businesses operate, like Otis? Still seems wrong to me even if "everyone" is doing it.

Scott Connors
06-01-2011, 10:15 PM
I am not a subject matter expert, but I can refer you to some sources. And I wouldn't characterize my statement as a claim, but rather as what looks to be the best choice based upon my admittedly second-hand knowledge. Rather than simply parrot what the real experts have said, I'll refer you to the actual citations (in bold, below). I hope that this helps.

I have never since any hard evidence that ionbonding or NBC coatings can improve reliability. I am not arguing with you, just would like to learn. Could you please back up your claim?

http://www.defensereview.com/failzero-ar-15-basic-kit-tactical-ar-15-carbine-parts-upgrade-kit-with-exo-technology-self-lubricating-firearms-coating/

The next two points are arguements (not the yelling kind haha)
1) How would a Vltor A5 stock improve the M4's reliability in dusty/sandy conditions?

It provides practically the same weight buffer/recoil spring resistance as an A2 fixed stock: http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=56043

2) I was under the impression that a midlength gas system on a 14.5" barrel doesn't improve reliability but reduces recoil. Also, if in fact the system is over gased due to the carbine gas system wouldn't a cheap fix be to increase the buffer weight?

See http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=54940
http://www.armalite.com/images/Tech%20Notes%5CTech%20Note%2048,%20Barrel%20Design ,%20Heat,%20and%20Reliability,%20030824%E2%80%A6.p df
http://www.ar15barrels.com/prod/operation.shtml

RRichie09
06-01-2011, 10:20 PM
I am not a subject matter expert, but I can refer you to some sources. And I wouldn't characterize my statement as a claim, but rather as what looks to be the best choice based upon my admittedly second-hand knowledge. Rather than simply parrot what the real experts have said, I'll refer you to the actual citations (in bold, below). I hope that this helps.

We need more posts like these. Thanks!

blazeaglory
06-04-2011, 8:48 PM
While I was deployed I noticed the non-shooter induced stoppages of the M4 where much higher than the full sized m16. These included FTE, FTF, over heating and double feeds. When switching over to the M16's obviously same shooters, same ammo, same magazines, and same environmental conditions the problems almost went away. There were still issues but the frequency was far less.

The origional posts of mine where in context to why the government doesn't just use the off the shelf equipment that has been developed to make the M4 more reliable in combat and with our troops so the statement,"if it was your *** on the line." is a valid one. Someone's *** is on the line and could very well be saved with some fixes to the platform and not just the cheap ones either. The point I was trying to drive home was we have the technology to fix it correctly the first time and maybe we can bring more of our boys home safely.

yeah that makes sense, i feel ya.

that is our government for ya. they can never admit to a simple stubborn issue like "hey, add the piston system". problem solved.

hey, do you think a 2x heavy buffer would help out any with the carbine issues? instead of upgrading to the piston system (i will when i get the $$$), do you think a heavy buffer would help any?

bwiese
06-04-2011, 9:01 PM
yeah that makes sense, i feel ya.
that is our government for ya. they can never admit to a simple stubborn issue like "hey, add the piston system". problem solved.

Wrong. Problem not solved.
Apparently you are unfamilar with mass production /product QA issues.

Even minor changes across a huge fleet of weapons used in a wide variety of environments takes a long time to get right. Initial introduction of a piston system involving a set of new parts will have failures due to those particular parts failing (or tolerance-stacking, etc.) The total failure rate of a complete M16/M4 fleet going to piston can easily been higher. There are no long-term, large-sample-size fleet tests of AR piston conversions: relatively few of these guns have been tested (and there are a ton of varieties).


hey, do you think a 2x heavy buffer would help out any with the carbine issues? instead of upgrading to the piston system (i will when i get the $$$), do you think a heavy buffer would help any?

If you as an ordinary shooter [not soldier] are having problems with your AR carbine, there's something wrong with it that needs direct fixing/repair - not a piston system changeover.

You either don't have a chrome-lined barrel/chamber [or it's dirty and you don't use the chamber brush], have not lubricated it properly, have a crap mag ;ocked in too tightly/"not sitting right" such that bolt carrier drags on it, or are using crappy ammo [though any AR should work 100% with Wolf, or there's something wrong with your gun.]

4thSBCT
06-04-2011, 9:12 PM
I love my AKs

blazeaglory
06-04-2011, 9:18 PM
Wrong. Problem not solved.
Apparently you are unfamilar with mass production /product QA issues.

Even minor changes across a huge fleet of weapons used in a wide variety of environments takes a long time to get right. Initial introduction of a piston system involving a set of new parts will have failures due to those particular parts failing (or tolerance-stacking, etc.) The total failure rate of a complete M16/M4 fleet going to piston can easily been higher. There are no long-term, large-sample-size fleet tests of AR piston conversions: relatively few of these guns have been tested (and there are a ton of varieties).




If you as an ordinary shooter [not soldier] are having problems with your AR carbine, there's something wrong with it that needs direct fixing/repair - not a piston system changeover.

You either don't have a chrome-lined barrel/chamber [or it's dirty and you don't use the chamber brush], have not lubricated it properly, have a crap mag ;ocked in too tightly/"not sitting right" such that bolt carrier drags on it, or are using crappy ammo [though any AR should work 100% with Wolf, or there's something wrong with your gun.]

ok,let me re phrase then...problem "ALMOST" fixed, happy? judging from the article and the HK rifle and soldiers having to swap out the system on their M4's on their own dime, it sounds like that fix is a large step in the right direction.

and no, i have never shot my carbine yet and i never said it had problems. i simply asked if a heavy buffer would begin to solve the problems as discussed in this thread. i know how to properly maintain a rifle

blazeaglory
06-04-2011, 9:19 PM
I love my AKs

AMEN:D

Packy14
06-04-2011, 10:16 PM
Sad that my AR is probably 10x better than the average soldier in our military carries, and its not even a GP (but..my next AR will be, cuz it'll be a LWRC).

SixPointEight
06-04-2011, 11:18 PM
It astounds me that the bureaucracy refuses even to consider the simplest fix to the M4. Most of the problems with the M4 can be traced to overly-violent extraction due to the change in dwell time between rifle and carbine-length gas systems, and this is a problem that has been dealt with very successfully by mid-length gas systems. Why not consider the following?
1. Mid-length gas system
2. Ionbond or Nickel Boron-coated BCG
3. LMT improved bolt and carrier or KAC SR15E3 bolt design
4. VLTOR A5 buttstock assembly

These are all off-the-shelf components that are known to work. But considering it took the Army 20 years to adopt the five-coil extractor spring, I'm not holding my breath.

Wouldn't it be cheaper/easier to drill a smaller gas vent in the barrel, or is that not a feasible option?

I don't know much about the overgassing etc etc with the m4, all I know is that my carbine leaves extractor marks etc on brass even on relatively mild loads, and I'm told it's because it's overgassed and needs a heavier buffer etc

Scott Connors
06-05-2011, 2:33 AM
I love my AKs

AKs had their teething problems too. However, in old Soviet Union making them public was anti-state activity and got you relocated to towns within walking distance of Santa's Workshop. (See C. J. Chiver's excellent The Gun.)

Scott Connors
06-05-2011, 2:40 AM
Reply below

Wouldn't it be cheaper/easier to drill a smaller gas vent in the barrel, or is that not a feasible option?

Not a feasible option. You can enlarge a small hole, but you can't make a big one smaller. Not to mention the fact that drilling a new gas vent in a chrome-lined barrel would probably ruin accuracy and would experience accelerated erosion of the gas port, and that's if you could somehow close up the old vent.

I don't know much about the overgassing etc etc with the m4, all I know is that my carbine leaves extractor marks etc on brass even on relatively mild loads, and I'm told it's because it's overgassed and needs a heavier buffer etc

You could probably do with the enhanced extractor package [black insert, five-coil spring and Crane O-ring] as well as an H buffer. Are you running a carbine gas system? Who made the barrel?

sonnyt650
06-05-2011, 5:48 AM
As far as gas vent size, bypass the problem and change out the existing gas block with an adjustable gas block. It doesn't even need to be field selectable, just a set screw that the armourer can optimize for that rifle. The incredible inventory of barrels in our armed forces will be changed out over time so with the next barrel the screw needs to be adjusted, but that's it. No need to swap out to mid-length gas across all barrels, gas tubes, and buffers. Being adjustable is far preferable to swapping out parts until it works.

r3dn3ck
06-05-2011, 6:21 AM
It would seem that this problem is solvable on the DI system by just relocating the gas block forward a tad. It doesn't need to be under the handguard so why not push it foward a bit to get the delay before the case contracts in the chamber back to correct and use the fact that the barrel ends earlier to keep the peak of the pressure from getting too high which would slow down the bolt cycle a bit.

HK35
06-05-2011, 6:33 AM
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/the-usas-m4-carbine-controversy-03289/

Not trying to stir the GP vs DI pool again, this article has an interesting look into the weapons and the political side of the Army's rifle.

*Bonus - there are enough sub articles to keep any fanboy going for a least an hour or more.

That's a good article. IMHO, GP is indeed an improvement over DI for all reasons mentioned in the article. What amazes me, however, is how resistant people are to change. I can imagine a similar group of people within the military making the same arguments for DI and crying about how a GP is an "unnecessary fix to a non existent problem". One of the many reasons why AKs are more reliable than DI ARs is that AK are GP.

C.W.M.V.
06-05-2011, 7:14 AM
AKs had their teething problems too. However, in old Soviet Union making them public was anti-state activity and got you relocated to towns within walking distance of Santa's Workshop. (See C. J. Chiver's excellent The Gun.)

Its not a teething problem after 40 years.
AR=the suck. I always envied AQI for their weapons.

Dreaded Claymore
06-05-2011, 2:12 PM
AKs had their teething problems too. However, in old Soviet Union making them public was anti-state activity and got you relocated to towns within walking distance of Santa's Workshop. (See C. J. Chiver's excellent The Gun.)

In American factory you have quality control. In Soviet Russia, quality controls you!

Uxi
06-05-2011, 2:54 PM
Some sort of piston operated variant should be the successor. Something like the ACR would be perfect for the USMC.

M16 and M4 were fine for their day (AR-18 was better in just about every single every way, but that's neither here nor there) but time to move on

blazeaglory
06-05-2011, 7:55 PM
so would a heavy buffer help with the "so called" cycling issues on a DI carbine?

ie:help to slow down the cycle enough to let the cartridge cool and be ejected properly

the article says that the carbines cycle is too quick and the BCG grabs the cartridge before it has time to cool real quick and shrink down after expansion. therefore more likely to get stuck in the barrel or damage the cartridge.

so would a heavy buffer help at all as compared to an upgrade to GP? i would think yes a little?

HK35
06-05-2011, 8:20 PM
so would a heavy buffer help at all as compared to an upgrade to GP? i would think yes a little?
Yes, it would. A heavier buffer (e.g., ST-T2) and a firmer buffer spring (e.g., Springco Red/Blue) may help.

Dannicus
06-05-2011, 8:40 PM
I wonder if an expansion chamber integrated into the gas tube would help.

pyro3k2
06-05-2011, 10:06 PM
Wrong. Problem not solved.
Apparently you are unfamilar with mass production /product QA issues.

Even minor changes across a huge fleet of weapons used in a wide variety of environments takes a long time to get right. Initial introduction of a piston system involving a set of new parts will have failures due to those particular parts failing (or tolerance-stacking, etc.) The total failure rate of a complete M16/M4 fleet going to piston can easily been higher. There are no long-term, large-sample-size fleet tests of AR piston conversions: relatively few of these guns have been tested (and there are a ton of varieties).




If you as an ordinary shooter [not soldier] are having problems with your AR carbine, there's something wrong with it that needs direct fixing/repair - not a piston system changeover.

You either don't have a chrome-lined barrel/chamber [or it's dirty and you don't use the chamber brush], have not lubricated it properly, have a crap mag ;ocked in too tightly/"not sitting right" such that bolt carrier drags on it, or are using crappy ammo [though any AR should work 100% with Wolf, or there's something wrong with your gun.]

Probably would be easier to adopt an entirely new weapon than do an Army wide changing of parts. According to Colt it took the Army 20 years to decide to change the extractor spring so no one hold your breath.

I love my AKs

As do I:D:cool2:

so would a heavy buffer help with the "so called" cycling issues on a DI carbine?

ie:help to slow down the cycle enough to let the cartridge cool and be ejected properly

the article says that the carbines cycle is too quick and the BCG grabs the cartridge before it has time to cool real quick and shrink down after expansion. therefore more likely to get stuck in the barrel or damage the cartridge.

so would a heavy buffer help at all as compared to an upgrade to GP? i would think yes a little?

It depends on what gas system you are running. If you have the shorter carbine version these things wil help, but not fix the issues. If you go gas piston you open up a new set of problems like carrier tilt or if the manf. of your GPU goes out of buisness and you can no longer buy replacement parts. The only true fix is to go back to stock settings i.e. rifle lenght gas system on a rifle buffer...or an AK ( /troll ).

blazeaglory
06-05-2011, 10:21 PM
It depends on what gas system you are running. If you have the shorter carbine version these things wil help, but not fix the issues. If you go gas piston you open up a new set of problems like carrier tilt or if the manf. of your GPU goes out of buisness and you can no longer buy replacement parts. The only true fix is to go back to stock settings i.e. rifle lenght gas system on a rifle buffer...or an AK ( /troll ).

well, i have a carbine and now im paranoid that it is going to jam all the time..lol

pyro3k2
06-05-2011, 10:35 PM
well, i have a carbine and now im paranoid that it is going to jam all the time..lol

Unless your AR is full auto or you bump fire like a mo fo there is no need to be worried. If used with steady to fast paced semi-auto fire you will more than likely not experience these issues unless you forget to lube your AR. But if you are still paranoid and were just looking for an excuse to spend money then a mid-lenght upper is in your near future.

sonnyt650
06-06-2011, 5:17 AM
i would think yes a little?

That excess pressure is still inside the bolt carrier trying to expand the chamber which unlocks the lugs. If you look closely at your bolt it has gas rings which would need to contain that gas for a longer time period than normal, and there are other places where that high-pressure gas can leak out. A heavier buffer will help alleviate the indicated symptoms some, but might just change the current overgassing symptoms for others. IMO the only way to do this well is to have an adjustable gas block or switch to a piston system.

fullspeed1
06-06-2011, 5:45 AM
Considering the environment I live in, and actually running a carbine system in a 2 day rifle class, I feel confident that my Middy will outlast me without any issues.

PuppY_K1ck3R
06-06-2011, 9:01 AM
In American factory you have quality control. In Soviet Russia, quality controls you!

Man that is excellent!!!

Dreaded Claymore
06-06-2011, 3:34 PM
Man that is excellent!!!

Of course if you read it in a Yakov Smirnoff voice it's even better. :D

The main bullet point of this debate is that the military is the most conservative and change-resistant institution ever.

stormy_clothing
06-06-2011, 3:47 PM
bs the military isnt change resistant when it wants new toys it gets them they simply and I cannot state this enough just dont give a **** about soldiers rifles and this is a well known fact by those in the industry that follows these kinds of small arms issues.

there is a known and large deficiency in the modern m4/m16 that stretches well past design tolerances and it's this reason that instead of taking 550 million dollars in military aid Mexico gets every year and buying m16's from us they chose to design there own a piston gun based off a proven hk design.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-WsLah2cxsO8/TWEpL0r6sTI/AAAAAAAAAro/wgvUeWIFkcs/s1600/FX-05_Cutaway.jpg

Yes that's right mexico has a better rifle for it's troops than we have for ours and it's flat out sickening.

MUKAK
06-06-2011, 5:02 PM
bs the military isnt change resistant when it wants new toys it gets them they simply and I cannot state this enough just dont give a **** about soldiers rifles and this is a well known fact by those in the industry that follows these kinds of small arms issues.

there is a known and large deficiency in the modern m4/m16 that stretches well past design tolerances and it's this reason that instead of taking 550 million dollars in military aid Mexico gets every year and buying m16's from us they chose to design there own a piston gun based off a proven hk design.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-WsLah2cxsO8/TWEpL0r6sTI/AAAAAAAAAro/wgvUeWIFkcs/s1600/FX-05_Cutaway.jpg

Yes that's right mexico has a better rifle for it's troops than we have for ours and it's flat out sickening.

very sickening

blazeaglory
06-06-2011, 6:49 PM
very, very sickening

locosway
06-06-2011, 8:33 PM
Here's what I don't understand... Most of the issues with the AR platform come from dirt getting into the gun. At one time it was because of there not being chrome lined parts, or bad powder, or various other issues. Now it seems to be dust and dirt that's causing the problem.

Obviously with DI you need to run more lube, so it will attract more dirt. However, even on a GP system you still need lube, and a GP system doesn't change the characteristics of the weapon in a way that would cause less dirt/dust/sand to get into the weapon. Yes, you get less carbon and residue from the gas, but that's it, right?

So, does the GP only have the advantage of running with less lube which in turn would attract less dirt (timing issues aside)?

pyro3k2
06-06-2011, 10:55 PM
bs the military isnt change resistant when it wants new toys it gets them they simply and I cannot state this enough just dont give a **** about soldiers rifles and this is a well known fact by those in the industry that follows these kinds of small arms issues.

there is a known and large deficiency in the modern m4/m16 that stretches well past design tolerances and it's this reason that instead of taking 550 million dollars in military aid Mexico gets every year and buying m16's from us they chose to design there own a piston gun based off a proven hk design.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-WsLah2cxsO8/TWEpL0r6sTI/AAAAAAAAAro/wgvUeWIFkcs/s1600/FX-05_Cutaway.jpg

Yes that's right mexico has a better rifle for it's troops than we have for ours and it's flat out sickening.

The drug lords don't **** around and neither should the people go after them. But we are fighting a war pretty much every 10 years and I don't know why we still dont have the best weapons on the planet.

yellowfin
06-07-2011, 5:41 AM
If the M4 is so flawed, they shouldn't have a problem selling them off to us then. Ditto with "obsolete" MP5s.

windrunner
06-07-2011, 8:34 AM
The military procurement process has nothing to do with getting the best equipment in the hands of the troops. It never has. It's all business.

sreiter
06-07-2011, 7:46 PM
As stated before, wouldn't a adjustable gas block solve the problem?

hnoppenberger
06-07-2011, 9:01 PM
bravo company has it figured out, all with using DI.
their m4's are running like an AK, and its only minor changes that make it happen. buffer, springs, magazines.

r6raff
06-07-2011, 10:07 PM
^ There are simple things that can dramatically increase the reliability of the M4. The inherent cons to a gas system will always be there, the combination of a GP and appropriate buffer, springs and magazines will make an AR run like an AK without sacrificing accuracy. I would love to get my hands on a HK416 or a 17s. I love my AR no doubt, but something about a piston system that just screams "Hold me, look at me, looooovvvveee me"