What are we losing this year? [Archive]

View Full Version : What are we losing this year?

Justang

12-12-2006, 10:43 PM

With the end of the year coming, what are some guns we will no longer be able to buy in California after the first of the year?

Just wondering what I need to go buy before Jan 1.

CalNRA

12-12-2006, 11:13 PM

the ones that are expiring:

Sig Arms (Sauer, J.P. & Sons) P229R GCP / Stainless Steel (blue), Alloy Pistol 3.8" .40 S&W 12/19/2006
CZ USA (Ceska Zbrojovka Fox) CZ 75 D (Black) 01194 / Alloy Pistol 3.87" 9mm 12/31/2006
CZ USA (Ceska Zbrojovka Fox) CZ 75 Compact (Black) 01190 / Steel Pistol 3.94" 9mm 12/31/2006
CZ USA (Ceska Zbrojovka Fox) CZ 75B (Black) 01120 / Steel Pistol 4.72" .40 S&W 12/31/2006
CZ USA (Ceska Zbrojovka Fox) CZ 97 B (Black) 01401 / Steel Pistol 4.84" .45 ACP 12/31/2006
CZ USA (Ceska Zbrojovka Fox) CZ 75 B (Black) 01102 / Steel Pistol 4.72" 9mm 12/31/2006
CZ USA (Ceska Zbrojovka Fox) CZ 75 B SA (Black) 01150 / Steel Pistol 4.72" 9mm 12/31/2006

hoffmang

12-12-2006, 11:44 PM

This time around, the big looser is CA DOJ Firearms. They will not be able to list any more Series ARs or AKs and they will not be able to add similar rifles to the Assault Weapons Ban anymore.

-Gene

cnyankee

12-12-2006, 11:48 PM

CALI-gula

12-13-2006, 02:53 AM

We are losing Bill Lockyer as AG, and Paul Koretz in the Assembly - call these a happy loss. Unfortunately, Koretz has been replaced by Mike Feuer, who is sure to pick up Koretz pet projects, garbage like AB352 among others, and recycle them as something else.

Word is still out on Jerry Brown, but I am willing to let Brown establish himself, without cutting him up for things he hasn't done yet. Like it or not, he is the new AG - let his actions speak, rather than speculation. I know full well of his ads of his anti-2nd Amendment stance on AB50, Roberti-Roos, and SB23, that he was Brady Campaign endorsed, and what he said during his campaign; none of that matters now, since he won. We have no choice but to give him a chance, and hopefully he'll avoid the hysterics of the Anti-2nd Amendment crowd while in office.

As far as guns go, just note that the the law demanding BOTH a magazine disconnect and loaded chamber indicator for new model semi-auto handguns submitted as of 1/1/2007 to DOJ for addition to the Safety Approved list goes into affect. Semi-Autos currently on the list can be renewed in the coming year or years, but eventually, like with all things, the manufacturers will release new models, or change to a variation of the model with new materials, new calibers, new features, new numbering or names, etc. Change one demanding aspect the DOJ considers significant change, of any semi-auto currently listed, and it is essentially a new model. Without the magazine disconnect and loaded chamber indicator, it won't even be considered for testing to be put on the list. :(

So, if CZ renews any of the guns noted above, they will be allowed to stay on the list and you will likely be able to buy them next year through those 12/2007 dates. If not renewed for some reason, and CZ comes out with a whole new line of guns to replace these models (unlikely), then I guess those are no longer an option.

.

pacificcoast

12-13-2006, 03:46 AM

What are we losing this year?

the dollar (hegemony)

jnojr

12-13-2006, 09:21 AM

Nothing! We're winning, remember?

gg77

12-13-2006, 12:18 PM

I don't turn 21 until until this August so I hope to God CZ renews so I can get a CZ 75 this year.

bwiese

12-13-2006, 12:26 PM

xenophobe

12-13-2006, 12:33 PM

Yes, and I think they're losing an employee (or two?)...

I wouldn't be surprised to see a reorganization of the DOJ after JB sees the mess that is in the Firearms Div. ;)

JPN6336

12-13-2006, 03:47 PM

We're losing the chance of any pistol that doesn't have a magazine disconnect AND a chamber loaded indicator being added to the list.

tacticalcity

12-13-2006, 04:51 PM

This is for gg77...forgive me while I rant...I do know this is a bit off topic...so forgive me while I preach my very opinionated doctrine...

Since you're 18, and presumably new to handguns let me pass on some advice I learned the hardway. By which I mean after paying $750 for a beautiful firearm only to take it to the Front Sight Firearms Institute in Las Vegas (another $1800+) and realize it just wouldn't do in a crisis.

Now Hear me out, then you can ignore me and buy what you want ;-)

Talk to an instructor from the major tactical shooting schools (Front Sight, Gun Sight, etc.) and they will tell you the key to a good self-defense handgun is the trigger pull.

Avoid double-single action firearms like the plague.

99% of the guns on the market use the double-single action. They will get you killed. To my recolection, the CZ you are considering is a double-single action firearm.

They are a politically correct gun designed to help police departments avoid lawsuits. When police had a rash of shootings involving children, they blamed the guns they were carrying. They claimed the had "hair-triggers". There solution was to create a gun that had an extremly tough trigger pull only on the first pull, every pull there after is a light trigger pull. This makes them next to impossible to master.

Real life training involves firing a "controlled pair" (like a double tap only you aim) to the center mass, with a head shot as necessary (failure to stop). When using a gun with a double-single action in real life situations your first shot ends up high and whips over the Tango's head, and your second shot ends up low and hits the ground in front his feet. Keep in mind with all that adrenaline and stress your going to shoot 100 times worse than your worst day on the range. So if you're even slightly off in training, you're gonna be way off the first time somebody send hot lead in your direction.

Now I know what you're thinking, you'll just cock the hammer back and now it's only a single action. In real life, you just don't have the time. Especially if you carry for a living, from a holster. And hey, you never know you might end up doing so someday.

Someone may suggest carrying the weapon cocked (as in carry it in your holster already cocked). To my knowledge the only weapon you can get away with this on is the 1911. Its safety doesn’t de-cock the firearm. So those tactical guys that carry them do so cocked, with the safety on. They train to release the safety only when ready to fire. In MHO this is an extra-step I would rather avoid.

Firearms like the Beretta 92, have a safety that doubles as a de-cocker. It is impossible to employ the safety while the gun is cocked. And since the single-stage trigger pull is extremely light, trying to carry it cocked without some sort of a safety is a trip to the ER waiting to happen. Just don’t do it.

The solution is to get a gun that has the exact same trigger pull every single time. That's why Tactical guys love Glocks. It's "safe-action" trigger is a fairly light pull (without being so light you hurt yourself) and every trigger pull is exactly the same. So once you master it, you've got it down...both hits center mass every time. Headshots no problem.

Another good option is the Walther P99 QA (Quick Action model only, not the regular P99). It has a similar trigger and added safety features for those who don't train enough for their finger/brain to be their safety. It looks a little nicer than the Glock and has an ergonomic grip that fits like a glove. This is the new James Bond gun.

When it comes down to it...any Double Action only or similar functioning trigger is your best bet. My preference is a Glock. It’s what I was trained on (after I tossed my Beretta).

Now tons of people are going to spout off about how their double-singles are great, and how they are cops, military, etc. I don't care. Been there, done that. I’ve got the same credentials, plus I spent a ton of money going to Front Sight to hone this skill set.

Front Sight proves them wrong on a daily basis at the range, during speed drills, in the kill houses, etc.

This one is fact...not opinion. Read my other threads and you'll see I NEVER take that stance on any other issue. This is the one that I get all pissy about.

Yes my Glock is ugly. Yes you have to get used it at first in order to hit anything because the sights are tricky and it is front heavy. But after a day or two of real training, it will keep you’re a** alive! The others just might get you killed.

That having been said, yeah the CZ is very pretty. So if it is one of many, and you want it for a collection peice...then get it. But if it's role is to be a duty weapon...buy a Glock. ;-)

brando

12-13-2006, 05:11 PM

As far as guns go, just note that the the law demanding BOTH a magazine disconnect and loaded chamber indicator for new model semi-auto handguns submitted as of 1/1/2007 to DOJ for addition to the Safety Approved list goes into affect.

The CA DOJ pistol certification is the law that is pissing me off the most at the moment. It makes so damned sense that an approved model with different sights or some other accessory can't be sold here. For example, I tried ordering a customized Nighthawk 1911 recently but couldn't get exactly what I wanted because if it's going to CA, it has to be in the only approved configuration. Stupid!

This law is also really digging into my 1911 gunsmithing hobby. Try calling Caspian and ordering customized frames...

thisismyboomstick

12-13-2006, 05:12 PM

Can't CZ's be carried cocked and locked? I think they have the option of either DA/SA or cocked and locked. Kinda like a variant 1 USP.

saki302

12-13-2006, 05:29 PM

DA/SA is no problem at all with training and a skilled shooter. But you must train to the point it is second nature, where your 1st and 2nd shots are at least close. Strong fingers help too.

That said, nothing beats a Glock as a beginner's gun- most people shoot them well. BUT you must be very safety conscious as there is no manual safety and no heavy 1st shot pull. ADs seem more common with Glocks than other pistols- just what I've seen over the years. But my fave 'use' gun? Glock 19 :D

-Dave

grammaton76

12-13-2006, 05:36 PM

I'll state that, if you go Israeli style and train yourself to ALWAYS consider the chamber empty when picking it up, and racking the slide before you consider the weapon ready (this is a reduction-of-AD/ND-risk-in-stashed-guns step I take), you'll deal with the SA trigger pull only.

I use mostly CZ's (with the exception of my Sig 229) and am a pretty firm believer that if I don't have the time to rack the slide when I need a weapon, I'm likely dead already.

In an LE context, things would of course be different.

But, the way I handle my pistols, the DA is only there for an emergency second strike if the primer fails to catch.

Ryan HBC

12-13-2006, 06:02 PM

Wtf?? All he said was that he wanted a CZ, and you jump right into the tactical lesson, declaring every sa/da gun garbage? Talk about unprovoked. Let me guess, you feel rather strongly about this?

When using a gun with a double-single action in real life situations your first shot ends up high and whips over the Tango's head, and your second shot ends up low and hits the ground in front his feet.

I like how you declare that every time you have to start with a DA pull for the first shot, you miss both. Not "studies have shown that 15% of the time...". You simply declare that everyone will miss, every time. That's great material.

trinity9

12-13-2006, 09:18 PM

Nothing! We're winning, remember?

I get to the forums late, stuck at my new job flipping burgers, and you steal my witty line.

trinity9

Dont Tread on Me

12-13-2006, 09:54 PM

Yes, and I think they're losing an employee (or two?)...

We should have a poll on which one gets the boot first...

Actually this scares me. Better the devil you know.

homerm14

12-13-2006, 11:05 PM

That's funny, my Sig 226 kept me alive and before that my Beretta 96g kept me alive. Both double-single action, and that was'nt shooting at paper. Buy what ever you want and learn how to use it. Every one has opinions, some right, some wrong. Glocks are fine and very easy to shoot, but they aint the be all end all. They have there own problems just like everything else.

This is for gg77...forgive me while I rant...I do know this is a bit off topic...so forgive me while I preach my very opinionated doctrine...

Since you're 18, and presumably new to handguns let me pass on some advice I learned the hardway. By which I mean after paying $750 for a beautiful firearm only to take it to the Front Sight Firearms Institute in Las Vegas (another $1800+) and realize it just wouldn't do in a crisis.

Now Hear me out, then you can ignore me and buy what you want ;-)

Talk to an instructor from the major tactical shooting schools (Front Sight, Gun Sight, etc.) and they will tell you the key to a good self-defense handgun is the trigger pull.

Avoid double-single action firearms like the plague.

99% of the guns on the market use the double-single action. They will get you killed. To my recolection, the CZ you are considering is a double-single action firearm.

They are a politically correct gun designed to help police departments avoid lawsuits. When police had a rash of shootings involving children, they blamed the guns they were carrying. They claimed the had "hair-triggers". There solution was to create a gun that had an extremly tough trigger pull only on the first pull, every pull there after is a light trigger pull. This makes them next to impossible to master.

Real life training involves firing a "controlled pair" (like a double tap only you aim) to the center mass, with a head shot as necessary (failure to stop). When using a gun with a double-single action in real life situations your first shot ends up high and whips over the Tango's head, and your second shot ends up low and hits the ground in front his feet. Keep in mind with all that adrenaline and stress your going to shoot 100 times worse than your worst day on the range. So if you're even slightly off in training, you're gonna be way off the first time somebody send hot lead in your direction.

Now I know what you're thinking, you'll just cock the hammer back and now it's only a single action. In real life, you just don't have the time. Especially if you carry for a living, from a holster. And hey, you never know you might end up doing so someday.

Someone may suggest carrying the weapon cocked (as in carry it in your holster already cocked). To my knowledge the only weapon you can get away with this on is the 1911. Its safety doesn’t de-cock the firearm. So those tactical guys that carry them do so cocked, with the safety on. They train to release the safety only when ready to fire. In MHO this is an extra-step I would rather avoid.

Firearms like the Beretta 92, have a safety that doubles as a de-cocker. It is impossible to employ the safety while the gun is cocked. And since the single-stage trigger pull is extremely light, trying to carry it cocked without some sort of a safety is a trip to the ER waiting to happen. Just don’t do it.

The solution is to get a gun that has the exact same trigger pull every single time. That's why Tactical guys love Glocks. It's "safe-action" trigger is a fairly light pull (without being so light you hurt yourself) and every trigger pull is exactly the same. So once you master it, you've got it down...both hits center mass every time. Headshots no problem.

Another good option is the Walther P99 QA (Quick Action model only, not the regular P99). It has a similar trigger and added safety features for those who don't train enough for their finger/brain to be their safety. It looks a little nicer than the Glock and has an ergonomic grip that fits like a glove. This is the new James Bond gun.

When it comes down to it...any Double Action only or similar functioning trigger is your best bet. My preference is a Glock. It’s what I was trained on (after I tossed my Beretta).

Now tons of people are going to spout off about how their double-singles are great, and how they are cops, military, etc. I don't care. Been there, done that. I’ve got the same credentials, plus I spent a ton of money going to Front Sight to hone this skill set.

Front Sight proves them wrong on a daily basis at the range, during speed drills, in the kill houses, etc.

This one is fact...not opinion. Read my other threads and you'll see I NEVER take that stance on any other issue. This is the one that I get all pissy about.

Yes my Glock is ugly. Yes you have to get used it at first in order to hit anything because the sights are tricky and it is front heavy. But after a day or two of real training, it will keep you’re a** alive! The others just might get you killed.

That having been said, yeah the CZ is very pretty. So if it is one of many, and you want it for a collection peice...then get it. But if it's role is to be a duty weapon...buy a Glock. ;-)

CalNRA

12-14-2006, 03:39 AM

Wow, that's one ego-tripping post, I don' even know where to start.

I guess all the people who own Berettas, CZs, S&Ws, Sigs, etc better throw their DA/SA guns away before they die from the DA/SA plague!!!

Now if your DAO gun misfires and you are left with the "tap, rack, pull" routine, you'll be good as dead.

SOunds like you work for Glock, LOL:rolleyes:

This is for gg77...forgive me while I rant...I do know this is a bit off topic...so forgive me while I preach my very opinionated doctrine...

Since you're 18, and presumably new to handguns let me pass on some advice I learned the hardway. By which I mean after paying $750 for a beautiful firearm only to take it to the Front Sight Firearms Institute in Las Vegas (another $1800+) and realize it just wouldn't do in a crisis.

Now Hear me out, then you can ignore me and buy what you want ;-)

Talk to an instructor from the major tactical shooting schools (Front Sight, Gun Sight, etc.) and they will tell you the key to a good self-defense handgun is the trigger pull.

Avoid double-single action firearms like the plague.

99% of the guns on the market use the double-single action. They will get you killed. To my recolection, the CZ you are considering is a double-single action firearm.

They are a politically correct gun designed to help police departments avoid lawsuits. When police had a rash of shootings involving children, they blamed the guns they were carrying. They claimed the had "hair-triggers". There solution was to create a gun that had an extremly tough trigger pull only on the first pull, every pull there after is a light trigger pull. This makes them next to impossible to master.

Real life training involves firing a "controlled pair" (like a double tap only you aim) to the center mass, with a head shot as necessary (failure to stop). When using a gun with a double-single action in real life situations your first shot ends up high and whips over the Tango's head, and your second shot ends up low and hits the ground in front his feet. Keep in mind with all that adrenaline and stress your going to shoot 100 times worse than your worst day on the range. So if you're even slightly off in training, you're gonna be way off the first time somebody send hot lead in your direction.

Now I know what you're thinking, you'll just cock the hammer back and now it's only a single action. In real life, you just don't have the time. Especially if you carry for a living, from a holster. And hey, you never know you might end up doing so someday.

Someone may suggest carrying the weapon cocked (as in carry it in your holster already cocked). To my knowledge the only weapon you can get away with this on is the 1911. Its safety doesn’t de-cock the firearm. So those tactical guys that carry them do so cocked, with the safety on. They train to release the safety only when ready to fire. In MHO this is an extra-step I would rather avoid.

Firearms like the Beretta 92, have a safety that doubles as a de-cocker. It is impossible to employ the safety while the gun is cocked. And since the single-stage trigger pull is extremely light, trying to carry it cocked without some sort of a safety is a trip to the ER waiting to happen. Just don’t do it.

The solution is to get a gun that has the exact same trigger pull every single time. That's why Tactical guys love Glocks. It's "safe-action" trigger is a fairly light pull (without being so light you hurt yourself) and every trigger pull is exactly the same. So once you master it, you've got it down...both hits center mass every time. Headshots no problem.

Another good option is the Walther P99 QA (Quick Action model only, not the regular P99). It has a similar trigger and added safety features for those who don't train enough for their finger/brain to be their safety. It looks a little nicer than the Glock and has an ergonomic grip that fits like a glove. This is the new James Bond gun.

When it comes down to it...any Double Action only or similar functioning trigger is your best bet. My preference is a Glock. It’s what I was trained on (after I tossed my Beretta).

Now tons of people are going to spout off about how their double-singles are great, and how they are cops, military, etc. I don't care. Been there, done that. I’ve got the same credentials, plus I spent a ton of money going to Front Sight to hone this skill set.

Front Sight proves them wrong on a daily basis at the range, during speed drills, in the kill houses, etc.

This one is fact...not opinion. Read my other threads and you'll see I NEVER take that stance on any other issue. This is the one that I get all pissy about.

Yes my Glock is ugly. Yes you have to get used it at first in order to hit anything because the sights are tricky and it is front heavy. But after a day or two of real training, it will keep you’re a** alive! The others just might get you killed.

That having been said, yeah the CZ is very pretty. So if it is one of many, and you want it for a collection peice...then get it. But if it's role is to be a duty weapon...buy a Glock. ;-)

6172crew

12-14-2006, 05:47 AM

I get to the forums late, stuck at my new job flipping burgers, and you steal my witty line.

trinity9
Hows my burger coming?:)

Bill_in_SD

12-14-2006, 08:47 AM

I wish I had that advice before my first purchase.

I am not saying that DAO is the answer for everyone. You need to practice, practice, and practice, no matter what you use.

My first gun purchase was a Beretta Cougar DA/SA. I love that gun. Shoots well, feels good, and I thought I could use it effectively.

Then I went and got the professional training. For me, it was an enlightening experience - after I tore little bits of flesh off of my fingers clearing malfunctions (on the decocker) and struggling throughout the class with the first pull of the trigger, I came away with the same thoughts as tacticalcity. I felt strong enough about it to go purchase a Smith and Wesson M&P.

I love my Beretta, probably won't ever sell it, but I can run the M&P much easier and faster than I ever thought I could run my Beretta.

As a Navy Reservist, with the possibility of getting activated and sent to the sandbox, learning the Beretta was still a good experience. The M9 (92FS) is the choice of the Navy.

Learn your weapon, whatever it is.....

Bill in SD

<edited to add that I don't work for Glock, S&W, Front Sight, Gunsite, etc. Just a computer geek who has a deeper appreciation of his firearms now>

cseabass

12-14-2006, 02:55 PM

prebans

12-14-2006, 05:13 PM

I don't turn 21 until until this August so I hope to God CZ renews so I can get a CZ 75 this year.

Can't you have a parent or relative buy the gun and then do a private party (with dealer) transfer once you're of age?

Mike

Bill_in_SD

12-14-2006, 05:25 PM

Now if your DAO gun misfires and you are left with the "tap, rack, pull" routine, you'll be good as dead.

And I think if *any* gun misfires and you cannot run the gun quick enough you are dead...

Like I said - practice!

Bill in SD

kilword

12-14-2006, 06:35 PM

believe cz said theyre gonna renew expiring pistols

Justang

12-15-2006, 08:56 AM

What guns don't have, or are not going to add, a mag disconect and chamber load indicator?

Does the DE have these things? I have some money I could spend before the new year, and I have certain guns I want to have in my collection.

samvet88

12-27-2006, 10:55 PM

i'm a cop and will never use or carry a gun with a mag disconnect. dept won't authorizing gunsmithing for removing disconnect. wanted an hk45c for off duty, anyone know if there's an exception for law enforcement? i don't know any tac instructors that would allow mag disconnects, anyways.

hoffmang

12-27-2006, 10:57 PM

samvet,

I'm curious if you can describe more what your strong dislike for the mag disconnect is?

I'm annoyed by it on the political/cost front, but I can't think of a lot of times that I would have the mag out and a round in a chamber without being in process of throwing a mag in.

-Gene

Dave in LB

12-27-2006, 11:26 PM

I believe his strong dislike of the mag disconnect has to do with the fact that you can't shoot the loaded round in the chamber without the magazine still in the gun. Imagine a situation where you are tactically reloading, one round still chambered and you fumble the magazine you're loading. Maybe the bad guy shoots you in the hand etc. You cannot fire your gun and now death is emminent.

As for the Glocks rule Da/Sa sucks I would agree tht the DA/SA trigger is more tricky to learn and may be a deficet in a fight. Having said that the Springfield XD is the gun Glock will hope to be someday in order to sell guns in CA. It has many of the features required and is a seemless firearm IMHO. Personally though I own CZ and 1911s

bwiese

12-28-2006, 12:17 AM

I'm curious if you can describe more what your strong dislike for the mag disconnect is?

I'm annoyed by it on the political/cost front....

Gene,

Many mag discos really affect quality of trigger pull. Browning HiPowers are esp bad in this regard.

The ability to still be able to fire a round with a lost/damaged mag can be a lifesaver, too.

I'm getting read to take the mag disco off my S&W 1006...

marklbucla

12-28-2006, 12:30 AM

How would the DA would even come into play on the 97B?

It would seem like one would have to manually decock on a loaded round in order for the DA to be used. Unless of course, you had a bad primer.

hoffmang

12-28-2006, 12:30 AM

The one item I really hadn't thought about was the change out of a not fully spent magazine for another.

Thanks for the info guys - it was purely a for my information question.

None of my current handguns have it so I haven't played with it.

-Gene

JPglee1

12-28-2006, 12:32 AM

I don't turn 21 until until this August so I hope to God CZ renews so I can get a CZ 75 this year.

Buy a "pre-owned" model. P-T-P problem solved.

J

grammaton76

12-28-2006, 04:08 PM

How would the DA would even come into play on the 97B?

It would seem like one would have to manually decock on a loaded round in order for the DA to be used. Unless of course, you had a bad primer.

That's precisely it.

Shooting cheap ammo, I've discovered that the second strike is really nice to have sometimes.

M. Sage

12-28-2006, 08:17 PM

The CA DOJ pistol certification is the law that is pissing me off the most at the moment. It makes so damned sense that an approved model with different sights or some other accessory can't be sold here. For example, I tried ordering a customized Nighthawk 1911 recently but couldn't get exactly what I wanted because if it's going to CA, it has to be in the only approved configuration. Stupid!

This law is also really digging into my 1911 gunsmithing hobby. Try calling Caspian and ordering customized frames...

I hate it because those "safety features" have gotten people killed. I just heard about one guitarist who shot himself back in the '70s. He was drunk and was messing with his pistol. Someone at the party freaked out, so he popped the mag, pointed it at the ceiling and when it didn't go off said "see, it's unloaded." He put the empty mag back in, put it to his temple and blew his head off.... because the mag disconnect worked perfectly.

Loaded chamber indicator? I've already got two good ones, thanks. Open and inspect, it's the only way.

Everybody who knows the first thing about firearms knows that you don't trust the safety devices!! Why else do you keep a gun pointed in a safe direction and keep your finger off the trigger till you're ready to fire? If you can trust the "safety," you can point it wherever and put your finger on the trigger. Pretty obvious how much the lawmakers know about guns on that one...

Big +1 to what Grammaton says. Loaded mag, empty chamber, safety off for me.

And umm... if you were shooting a DA/SA, wouldn't the first shot go low and the second high? You're going heavy and long to short and light.