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Wernher von Browning
05-31-2011, 11:27 AM
Here's another argument for shall-issue.

We have a coyote problem in this fair city. Now, this is not ranchland, farmland, parkland, or any other kind of land except hightaxland. It's had wall-to-wall concrete carpeting since the early 1950s. This burg is Concreteville. The coyotes come from any of several "nature preserves" at least two miles away.

Neighborhood cats and even large dogs (like, adult black labs) have been providing meals for these varmints for months. Backyards and tall fences are no protection; they just leap those with a single bound. They're even seen in daylight hours. Animal control is, of course, worthless, and the only thing they "do" is to point out how worthless they are and that you can't do anything either because coyotes are a "protected species." (Cats and dogs aren't, apparently).

Entirely aside from the question of discharging a firearm within city limits, or CA's laws about shooting darn near any critter, you can't effectively shoot them with rifles. The area is way too built up and the bullet will go through a couple or three houses after going through the coyote. They could be shot in the "preserves" but good luck getting anybody to allow that. Personal defense, however, is another issue.

Sooner or later, there will be small humans on the dinner menu. Then what ya gonna do? Sue the city, because blessed Animal Control did F-all when they were informed? Good luck... The local, large suburban newspaper runs stories with advice on how to survive a coyote encounter. Brilliant. We have small children, we have elderly people walking dogs late and early... Neighbors have seen coyotes trotting down the middle of the street. I've urged neighbors who have lost their cats this way to write a letter to the mayor demanding action, and send it certified. That way, if/when anything worse happens, there is a record that the city has been warned and elected to do nothing.

The excuse that one can UOC for personal protection is no good; just about every place in This Fair City is within 1000 feet of a school. I'm less than 200 ft. I don't even dare clean my long guns in the garage with the door open. I'm getting sensitized to Hoppe's and various ammonia potions.

So, for citizens to protect themselves against wild predators (where the city services abjectly fail to do so), the citizens need to be able to carry. Because of the school thing, they have to do CCW. Only, in this most Orange of all Counties, nobody gets to CCW.

I'm thinking, this could be another argument in court for shall-issue. One would think that the people have a right to protect themselves against four-legged predators roaming city streets -- and not be expected to call 9-1-1 first.

Decoligny
05-31-2011, 12:00 PM
Who told you coyotes are "protected"?

With a license you can hunt as many yotes as you can kill all year long.


472. General Provisions.

Except as otherwise provided in Sections 478 and 485 and subsections (a) through (d) below, nongame birds and mammals may not be taken.

(a) The following nongame birds and mammals may be taken at any time of the year and in any number except as prohibited in Chapter 6: English sparrow, starling, coyote, weasels, skunks, opossum, moles and rodents (excluding tree and flying squirrels, and those listed as furbearers, endangered or threatened species).

(b) Fallow, sambar, sika, and axis deer may be taken only concurrently with the general deer season.

(c) Aoudad, mouflon, tahr, and feral goats may be taken all year.

(d) American crows (Corvus brachyrhynchos) may be taken only under the provisions of Section 485 and by landowners or tenants, or by persons authorized in writing by such landowners or tenants, when American crows are committing or about to commit depredations upon ornamental or shade trees, agricultural crops, livestock, or wildlife, or when concentrated in such numbers and manner as to constitute a health hazard or other nuisance. Persons authorized by landowners or tenants to take American crows shall keep such written authorization in their possession when taking, transporting or possessing American crows. American crows may be taken only on the lands where depredations are occurring or where they constitute a health hazard or nuisance. If required by Federal regulations, landowners or tenants shall obtain a Federal migratory bird depredation permit before taking any American crows or authorizing any other person to take them.

American crows may be taken under the provisions of this subsection only by firearm, bow and arrow, falconry or by toxicants by the Department of Food and Agriculture for the specific purpose of taking depredating crows. Toxicants can be used for taking crows only under the supervision of employees or officers of the Department of Food and Agriculture or federal or county pest control officers or employees acting in their official capacities and possessing a qualified applicator certificate issued pursuant to sections 14151-14155 of the Food and Agriculture Code. Such toxicants must be applied according to their label requirements developed pursuant to sections 6151-6301, Title 3, California Code of Regulations.

resident-shooter
05-31-2011, 12:06 PM
lol @ you thinking that someone cares about you not getting eaten by yotes.

Wernher von Browning
05-31-2011, 12:21 PM
Ah. So the "protected" bit is FUD, propagated by the animal control lardbutts as an excuse for not having to do anything. I checked, you're right. (That's OK, I think Animal Control all got their pink slips recently. Can't think of a more deserving department).

Here's where I got it originally.
http://www.ocregister.com/articles/coyotes-72835-map-orange.html?maps=1



>> With a license you can hunt as many yotes as you can kill all year long.


Good luck with that inside city limits, though.

Or are you talkin' bowhunting, crossbow, spear... I'm too lazy / unskilled / undedicated for that.

From our blessed municipal code:
Sec. 11-14. Discharge of weapons.
It is hereby declared unlawful for any person, other than a peace officer acting in his official line of duty, to shoot, fire or discharge, or for any person to cause or permit to be shot, fired or discharged within the corporate limits of the city, any rifle, shotgun, pistol, revolver or other firearm, or any air gun, air pistol or air rifle, or any other weapon which emits a projectile as a result of pressure exerted at the breech, except when it may be necessary to do so to protect life or property, or to destroy or kill any predatory or dangerous animal, unless said person shall have first obtained permission in writing to do so from the chief of police.

Wanna be our test case? :)

Also, I can't find it now, but isn't there a California code for minimum distance from any dwelling or private property for discharging a firearm while hunting? If we ever had that kind of distance here, somebody planted a housing development on it ages ago.

Wernher von Browning
05-31-2011, 12:25 PM
lol @ you thinking that someone cares about you not getting eaten by yotes.

I don't care whether they care or not. I do care that the laws not prevent me from preventing me from... My point is the law needs to be changed and this may be one more lever to do so (seeing as the excuse in Peruta was that we have UOC, I think that was how it worked, right?)

I know bureaucracies like "animal control" only care about preserving turf and pensions. Nothing is going to change the consequences of that carelessness except some court decisions.

timdps
05-31-2011, 12:53 PM
(a) The following nongame birds and mammals may be taken at any time of the year and in any number except as prohibited in Chapter 6: moles.


Moles? Seriously? Any hard core mole hunters out there? :D

Tim

Wernher von Browning
05-31-2011, 1:44 PM
Moles? Seriously? Any hard core mole hunters out there? :D

Tim


Saaaaay... You may be onto something there.

Talk about a difficult target. Moles at 1000 yards (and six inches underground yet).

("I was a moleskin hunter for Dr. Scholl's")

RandyD
05-31-2011, 3:13 PM
Get in touch with Texas Governor, Rick Perry. He has a solution on how to handle coyotes when they attacked his dog while on a walk.

komrad
05-31-2011, 4:25 PM
i would go to a mole hunt. those things are completely rude.

oni.dori
05-31-2011, 4:41 PM
Here's another argument for shall-issue.

We have a coyote problem in this fair city. Now, this is not ranchland, farmland, parkland, or any other kind of land except hightaxland. It's had wall-to-wall concrete carpeting since the early 1950s. This burg is Concreteville. The coyotes come from any of several "nature preserves" at least two miles away.

Neighborhood cats and even large dogs (like, adult black labs) have been providing meals for these varmints for months. Backyards and tall fences are no protection; they just leap those with a single bound. They're even seen in daylight hours. Animal control is, of course, worthless, and the only thing they "do" is to point out how worthless they are and that you can't do anything either because coyotes are a "protected species." (Cats and dogs aren't, apparently).

Entirely aside from the question of discharging a firearm within city limits, or CA's laws about shooting darn near any critter, you can't effectively shoot them with rifles. The area is way too built up and the bullet will go through a couple or three houses after going through the coyote. They could be shot in the "preserves" but good luck getting anybody to allow that. Personal defense, however, is another issue.

Sooner or later, there will be small humans on the dinner menu. Then what ya gonna do? Sue the city, because blessed Animal Control did F-all when they were informed? Good luck... The local, large suburban newspaper runs stories with advice on how to survive a coyote encounter. Brilliant. We have small children, we have elderly people walking dogs late and early... Neighbors have seen coyotes trotting down the middle of the street. I've urged neighbors who have lost their cats this way to write a letter to the mayor demanding action, and send it certified. That way, if/when anything worse happens, there is a record that the city has been warned and elected to do nothing.

The excuse that one can UOC for personal protection is no good; just about every place in This Fair City is within 1000 feet of a school. I'm less than 200 ft. I don't even dare clean my long guns in the garage with the door open. I'm getting sensitized to Hoppe's and various ammonia potions.

So, for citizens to protect themselves against wild predators (where the city services abjectly fail to do so), the citizens need to be able to carry. Because of the school thing, they have to do CCW. Only, in this most Orange of all Counties, nobody gets to CCW.

I'm thinking, this could be another argument in court for shall-issue. One would think that the people have a right to protect themselves against four-legged predators roaming city streets -- and not be expected to call 9-1-1 first.

IIRC, you live in Ventura County, correct? I live out there also, and can vouch for that, especially on the back sides bordering the hills that become the Los Padres National Forest. Hell, even in Oxnard, a couple blocks in from the In-N-Out side of the 101 they had been habitually seeing bears last year. coyotes roam ALL over the place on the outskirts in to the first 1/3 of the cities, and ALL over the fields. Also, they are EVERYWHERE in Thousand Oaks, Simi, and Agoura. I work in Thousand Oaks, and CONSTANTLY see them around the area near Amgen and Baxter in the morning. Their tracks and scat can be found all over the place. They are becoming a SERIOUS problem in those areas.

Wernher von Browning
05-31-2011, 5:47 PM
IIRC, you live in Ventura County, correct? I live out there also, and can vouch for that, especially on the back sides bordering the hills that become the Los Padres National Forest. Hell, even in Oxnard, a couple blocks in from the In-N-Out side of the 101 they had been habitually seeing bears last year. coyotes roam ALL over the place on the outskirts in to the first 1/3 of the cities, and ALL over the fields. Also, they are EVERYWHERE in Thousand Oaks, Simi, and Agoura. I work in Thousand Oaks, and CONSTANTLY see them around the area near Amgen and Baxter in the morning. Their tracks and scat can be found all over the place. They are becoming a SERIOUS problem in those areas.

No, OC. It's absolutely flat, concrete, fully developed here, except for Newport Back Bay and Bolsa Chica and some other swampstuff along the Santa Ana River channel. This isn't "outskirts." This is full-on 1950s style suburbia, mile after mile of streets laid out in a grid pattern with pink and green houses in orderly rows between them.

In case you didn't see the link, see the map of sightings.
http://www.ocregister.com/articles/coyotes-72835-map-orange.html?maps=1

Yes, they concentrate on the fringes -- but see also Fountain Valley, Santa Ana, Westminster... The common thread seems to be river and flood control channels. They use those as habitat and highways and spread into residential areas at night, and even in daytime, to feed. Nobody in these areas considers themselves to be living anywhere near "wild" areas. It's Stripmallville.

But anyway, coyotes alone aren't the point. The point is being able to carry to defend one's self against, among other things, coyotes. Animal Control and the police won't help. In the event of an incident, we're on our own here. The point is that this is yet another reason for CCW and shall-issue. With all the schools around in this built-up area, and the Federal gun-free school zones thing, UOC is not an option, and it's of questionable utility if you need it, anyway.

bill_k_lopez
05-31-2011, 6:03 PM
I'm thinking, this could be another argument in court for shall-issue. One would think that the people have a right to protect themselves against four-legged predators roaming city streets -- and not be expected to call 9-1-1 first.

I think you're stretching.

First you'd have to present an argument that there was a real threat against human life from a coyote. A threat more dangerous and more menacing then some of the low life humanoids that frequent the LA streets at night, or ride public transportation in the morning or afternoon that always like sitting next to me. Which BTW isn't a valid reason to be granted CCW for some reason?

There shouldn't have to be anymore of an reason then I have a clean record, I have subscribed to the training mandated by the state and I don't pose any threat to law abiding citizens or law enforcement. PERIOD.

All the "justification reasons" are just some BS excuse to appease whatever agency is re-granting you your rights already granted under the constitution.

magsnubby
05-31-2011, 8:08 PM
Coyotes are vermin that should be killed on sight. Every see what they can do to a pen full of turkys? A calf? Lambs? Ask any rancher or farmer. Contrary to popular the do kill for sport. I've saw it first hand when i used to raise livestock.

WDE91
05-31-2011, 8:14 PM
Hmm go indian on the yotes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajxNlwmcpD0

Wernher von Browning
05-31-2011, 8:15 PM
I think you're stretching.

First you'd have to present an argument that there was a real threat against human life from a coyote. A threat more dangerous and more menacing then some of the low life humanoids that frequent the LA streets at night, or ride public transportation in the morning or afternoon that always like sitting next to me. Which BTW isn't a valid reason to be granted CCW for some reason?

There shouldn't have to be anymore of an reason then I have a clean record, I have subscribed to the training mandated by the state and I don't pose any threat to law abiding citizens or law enforcement. PERIOD.

All the "justification reasons" are just some BS excuse to appease whatever agency is re-granting you your rights already granted under the constitution.


Here ya go.
http://web.archive.org/web/20070926044522/http://www.co.san-diego.ca.us/awm/docs/coyoteattacks.pdf

See especially pp 1-4.

Found through Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coyote
Coyote attacks on humans are uncommon and rarely cause serious injuries, due to the relatively small size of the coyote. However, coyote attacks on humans have increased since 1998 in the state of California. Data from USDA Wildlife Services, the California Department of Fish & Game, and other sources show that while 41 attacks occurred during the period of 19881997, 48 attacks were verified from 1998 through 2003. The majority of these incidents occurred in Southern California near the suburban-wildland interface.

Your "low-life humanoids" probably have a better lobbyist than even the coyotes, that's why you can't cite them as a reason for CCW.

If / when a human is attacked by a coyote locally, then the public will realize they are a real danger. If they can attack and kill a full-grown black lab, they can do same with a small child. (The room will now shout "It's for the children!" Thank you.)

"Shouldn't have to be anymore of a reason..." Fine. We do have a Second Amendment. See how well that works... Peruta should have his CCW, too. But no, it is grinding through the courts. In a perfect world (according to us), 2A would be observed and this section of the forum would not be necessary.

The principles are fine and all that but they'll be small comfort for you when you're sitting out your time for carrying concealed without a permit. ("But I have the Second Amendment!!!") What I'm saying is, if this has to be a court fight (and, in CA, it seems that's exactly what every gun question becomes), the self-protection against wildlife is one more avenue to be argued.

It would be interesting if some people in coyote-infested but very decidedly urban areas applied for a CCW, citing need for personal protection against wildlife when going on walks, walking the dog, etc. It will of course be denied by the OC sheriffess. At that point, the denied party has standing to file a suit. That's what I'm saying.

GrizzlyGuy
05-31-2011, 8:23 PM
Moles? Seriously? Any hard core mole hunters out there? :D

I know of two: my mom and my wife. My mom likes to creep up to their hole with her 12-gauge and blast the little suckers into oblivion. My wife is a little more subtle - she hangs back on the deck with her sniper rifle (a tricked-out pellet gun) and does a clean long-range head shot when he finally pops up from his hole. I've always believed in 'eat what you kill', but fortunately neither of them make me cook up the moles for dinner. :D

Tzvia
05-31-2011, 9:03 PM
Yep. I used to work at the Baxter building, when Verizon ran their business DSL support there. Maybe the coyotes went there to hunt the ducks that swam in the ponds in front of the entrances. I live south of Ventura blvd in Woodland hills, on the edge of the Santa Monica Conservancy, on a hillside. Lots of yotes here. Sometimes, they come down our street in a pack howling, during the night. My dog comes running inside when he hears them. He's been popped by skunks several times in the backyard (boy that was fun cleaning up) and I guess he doesn't want to mess with the wildlife if it's bigger than a rabbit. All the same, I will blow away any coyote that I find in my yard if it presents a threat- I'm not going to wait until I or my dog has to go through rabies treatments.

With a few years of good winter rains, the rabbits and squirrels have lots of food and they are reproducing like mad- I've never seen so many as I did on my MTB ride in old Agoura last weekend; they were falling over themselves to get out of my way and darting in front of me like they were playing chicken. This will only serve to help explode the coyote population. Summer is going to be interesting.

Dreaded Claymore
05-31-2011, 10:01 PM
The only reason I'd kill a mole is if I wanted its hide for some high-fuzziness application. Even then I'd definitely eat it. Moles only eat bugs and worms, and won't destroy your garden (unlike gophers). They aerate the soil, don't kill them!

Wolverine
05-31-2011, 10:19 PM
Get some mean dogs.
http://i739.photobucket.com/albums/xx34/Wolverine_053/yote2.jpg

Wernher von Browning
05-31-2011, 10:27 PM
The only reason I'd kill a mole is if I wanted its hide for some high-fuzziness application. Even then I'd definitely eat it. Moles only eat bugs and worms, and won't destroy your garden (unlike gophers). They aerate the soil, don't kill them!

Hmmm...

"Everything I know I learned from Wikipedia." (It's safer that way).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mole_%28animal%29

Moles have very high quality fur. Moles pelts have a velvety texture not found in surface animals, whose pelts tend to be longer and react differently to being rubbed in different directions. To facilitate their burrowing lifestyle, mole pelts are short and very dense and have no particular direction in which friction moves more or less smoothly. The leather is extremely soft and supple. Queen Alexandra, the wife of Edward VII of the United Kingdom, ordered a mole-fur garment in order to start a fashion that would create a demand for mole fur, thereby turning what had been a serious pest problem in Scotland into a lucrative industry for the country. Hundreds of pelts are cut into rectangles and sewn together to make a coat. The natural color is taupe, but it is readily dyed any color.

Howbout a moleskin rifle bag? Be the first at your range...

Might run to some expense though, unless you have lotsa moles.
http://www.chifly.com/item.asp?prodID=1668&categoryID=24&subCategoryID=118&catID=118&catTab=SUB_CATEGORY


Although the mole can be eaten, the taste is said to be deeply unpleasant.

That's all I need to know...

Suvhater
05-31-2011, 10:30 PM
about the only thing you can carry in OC is a cane or golf club to beat them down with if they wander too close to you. Otherwise you are probably going to be the victim of some serious scrutiny. As far as dispatching one in defense of ones child/pet/vegetable garden/trash cans on your own property, you seem to have an exemption there in the municipal code you posted. You do so at your own peril.

Animal control only exists to:
1) Snoop through peoples fences and accuse them of having unlicensed pets.
2) Scoop up roadkill.
3) Sleep under freeway overpasses.

flyinverted
05-31-2011, 10:38 PM
I live in the "Coyote Hills" area of Fullerton. I was once surrounded by 5 coyotes when walking my dog that is not much bigger than a cat. I picked up the dog and walked a mile back home. As soon as I picked up the dog, the stance of the coyotes changed from "ready to charge" to "oh crap our meal is gone." I would be very happy to carry, but to carry because a coyote might eat my dog.. nahhh.. We've got better reasons to carry. You're more likely to be attacked by 2 legged creatures than by a coyote.

ccmc
06-01-2011, 5:35 AM
I live in the "Coyote Hills" area of Fullerton. I was once surrounded by 5 coyotes when walking my dog that is not much bigger than a cat. I picked up the dog and walked a mile back home. As soon as I picked up the dog, the stance of the coyotes changed from "ready to charge" to "oh crap our meal is gone." I would be very happy to carry, but to carry because a coyote might eat my dog.. nahhh.. We've got better reasons to carry. You're more likely to be attacked by 2 legged creatures than by a coyote.

I think I'm with you on that. We have lots of coyotes where I live in FL. There have been a couple of cases where small pets were taken, but never an attack on a person in my county. The danger is when a coyote (or any other animal) has rabies. Then they lose their fear of humans (there was an attack on a guy a few years ago by a rabid fox - he managed to kill it, but still had to undergo painful rabies treatment), but your experience is the norm around here. Years ago when I had my doberman he killed two coyotes on my property. I wasn't happy about it, but his mission in life seemed to be to eliminate any competing animal species on his turf which effectively ended the feral cat population explosion in the neighborhood among other things.

There are more annual dog attacks on people than coyote attacks over the last 20, maybe even 50 years, and as you said two legged predators are far worse.

socal2310
06-01-2011, 6:34 AM
I live in the "Coyote Hills" area of Fullerton. I was once surrounded by 5 coyotes when walking my dog that is not much bigger than a cat. I picked up the dog and walked a mile back home. As soon as I picked up the dog, the stance of the coyotes changed from "ready to charge" to "oh crap our meal is gone." I would be very happy to carry, but to carry because a coyote might eat my dog.. nahhh.. We've got better reasons to carry. You're more likely to be attacked by 2 legged creatures than by a coyote.

One thing about coyotes, they are opportunists and cowards, not real hunters. A pack of wolves that is hungry enough will attack even an adult elk or moose accepting that one or two of them might suffer an injury, perhaps even a disabling one. Any prey that stands up to a coyote is going to send them running off (If you get scared and run away, all bets are off. Their prey drive will kick in - interestingly, in "On Killing" Dave Grossman notes similar behavior among humans during battle when one side breaks and runs).

Ryan

SoCal1
06-01-2011, 7:26 AM
Coyotes have attacked children in Southern California in recent years. One girl was attacked a mile from my house in Chino Hills.


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,354988,00.html

moleculo
06-01-2011, 9:26 AM
In my neighborhood, the PD did a phone call warning to all houses last year about a small pack of aggressive coyotes that were cornering people walking their dogs and attacking. One girl got bit on the leg by them in the park across the street while riding her bike.

On Fri and Sat, we had a bear in the neighbors' yard going through the trash. We've had bears on the roof next door before. This isn't some back country town, we're just right up against the foothills. The city council refuses to do anything about the bear problem and they actual think it's amusing and gives the town character. It will take a small child getting mauled before something is done, unfortunately.

As a result, I frequently open carry while walking the dog in the evenings. It's my only choice as the PD Chief will not issue CCW and the LA County Sheriff for sure won't. I don't think the OP as presented is as ridiculous as some think, especially if you're in my shoes for a bit.

Wernher von Browning
06-01-2011, 3:18 PM
Update on coyote FUD.

Who told you coyotes are "protected"?

With a license you can hunt as many yotes as you can kill all year long.


472. General Provisions.



Thanks. I printed out from the original CA F&G site and gave it to the lady next door, who's more upset about coyotes than I am (again, note that I don't really give a hoot about the critters -- except that they present one more reason to justify concealed carry, seeing as UOC does not work with schools every two blocks -- UOC is broken!).

She reiterated that the local cops told her they're not allowed to do anything about coyotes, in fact if they were to catch one in her back yard, they would have to release it -- in her back yard. Uh... no. Not gonna happen.

I told her that that was just flat a lie, perpetrated by a worthless bureaucracy that doesn't want to actually have to do anything.

Note that like most incorporated places, civilians at least are not allowed to hunt in these city limits.

And here's the code.

It is hereby declared unlawful for any person, other than a peace officer acting in his official line of duty, to shoot, fire or discharge, or for any person to cause or permit to be shot, fired or discharged within the corporate limits of the city, any rifle, shotgun, pistol, revolver or other firearm, or any air gun, air pistol or air rifle, or any other weapon which emits a projectile as a result of pressure exerted at the breech, except when it may be necessary to do so to protect life or property, or to destroy or kill any predatory or dangerous animal, unless said person shall have first obtained permission in writing to do so from the chief of police.

jwkincal
06-01-2011, 3:25 PM
It is hereby declared unlawful for any person, other than a peace officer acting in his official line of duty, to shoot, fire or discharge, or for any person to cause or permit to be shot, fired or discharged within the corporate limits of the city, any rifle, shotgun, pistol, revolver or other firearm, or any air gun, air pistol or air rifle, or any other weapon which emits a projectile as a result of pressure exerted at the breech, except when it may be necessary to do so to protect life or property, or to destroy or kill any predatory or dangerous animal, unless said person shall have first obtained permission in writing to do so from the chief of police.

If a coyote is in the neighbor lady's backyard and threatening her puppy, she can legally shoot it. The DA may disagree, but a good lawyer would win that one, I think...

Wernher von Browning
06-01-2011, 3:31 PM
If a coyote is in the neighbor lady's backyard and threatening her puppy, she can legally shoot it. The DA may disagree, but a good lawyer would win that one, I think...

Yeah. A good lawyer would win that one. The city would lose. And so would the 80-year-old woman next door, after spending umpteen thousand to defend her actions against idiotic laws and DAs.

Now, if "winner pays loser's legal costs," it would look very different.

jwkincal
06-01-2011, 3:31 PM
Also, that "we have to release it" thing is a PD rule or MC requirement, I'm sure.

In my city, the PD will rent you animal traps for the skunks, but if you catch a possum (also on the "non-game mammal" shoot-when-you-want Fish and Game list) instead, you must release it within 300 feet of where you caught it.

If it was the boonies somewhere, I could shoot either one of them with the ol' .22 right off my porch... but the city cops have a whole different set of rules; they probably have no idea why they can't do stuff so they think "possums/coyotes/squirrels must be endangered"

SGGear
06-01-2011, 3:31 PM
I dont think there has been many incidents to merit CCW against coyotes. Also as far as mole hunting goes, get ready to camp for days since they spend most of their time in the ground.

MudCamper
06-01-2011, 3:44 PM
Moles? Seriously? Any hard core mole hunters out there? :D

I hunt moles! But I use traps.

The only reason I'd kill a mole is if I wanted its hide for some high-fuzziness application. Even then I'd definitely eat it. Moles only eat bugs and worms, and won't destroy your garden (unlike gophers). They aerate the soil, don't kill them!

They tear the **** out of my lawn. And they attract badgers, which then REALLY tear the **** out of my lawn! And I'm not allowed to trap badgers, or shoot them except Nov - Feb (when they are hibernating and not in my lawn).

Rivers
06-01-2011, 3:48 PM
From our blessed municipal code:
Sec. 11-14. Discharge of weapons.
It is hereby declared unlawful for any person, other than a peace officer acting in his official line of duty, to shoot, fire or discharge, or for any person to cause or permit to be shot, fired or discharged within the corporate limits of the city, any rifle, shotgun, pistol, revolver or other firearm, or any air gun, air pistol or air rifle, or any other weapon which emits a projectile as a result of pressure exerted at the breech, except when it may be necessary to do so to protect life or property, or to destroy or kill any predatory or dangerous animal, unless said person shall have first obtained permission in writing to do so from the chief of police.


This reads that you are not allowed to shoot a firearm UNLESS it is to "destroy or kill any predatory or dangerous animal." Any EXCEPTION to that would require written permission from the police chief. But killing a coyote (a "predatory or dangerous animal") in your own yard is clearly legal by that law and does not require permission.

Discharge of a firearm within city limits might also have similar qualifiers. I'd check with your city council for clarification.

Wernher von Browning
06-01-2011, 8:56 PM
And I'm not allowed to trap badgers, or shoot them except Nov - Feb (when they are hibernating ...).

Well, where's the sport in that... :)

Wernher von Browning
06-01-2011, 8:58 PM
This reads that you are not allowed to shoot a firearm UNLESS it is to "destroy or kill any predatory or dangerous animal." Any EXCEPTION to that would require written permission from the police chief. But killing a coyote (a "predatory or dangerous animal") in your own yard is clearly legal by that law and does not require permission.


Zactly. The cops are spreading FUD about these things being "endangered" and have to be released in the same yard where they were caught etc. etc. They just don't want to be bothered. So they make up laws as they go.

RANGER295
06-02-2011, 7:29 AM
Interesting topic. This is slightly off topic but closely related. One of San Joaquin County's previously accepted good cause statements was taking walks at night. I put that on my good cause. When I met with him, sheriff More asked why I would need a gun to take a walk. I told him that I live way out in the country and there are wild and feral animals. I told him that one of my neighbors was attacked by dogs when she was walking. He wanted specifics about the incident that i could not give and acted like he thought I was lying.

A week or two after I got my denial letter, one of my animals was attacked by a feral animal which in turn tried to attack me. I attempted to retreat into my house but ended up shooting the animal inside the garage resulting in a mess that took hours to clean up. I just feel blessed that I was on my own property where I had access to a weapon and not out for a walk when this happened. But then I guess something like that can only happen on your own property and I have no need to carry when I am out and about :rolleyes:

Rivers
06-02-2011, 5:22 PM
Interesting topic. This is slightly off topic but closely related. One of San Joaquin County's previously accepted good cause statements was taking walks at night. I put that on my good cause. When I met with him, sheriff More asked why I would need a gun to take a walk. I told him that I live way out in the country and there are wild and feral animals. I told him that one of my neighbors was attacked by dogs when she was walking. He wanted specifics about the incident that i could not give and acted like he thought I was lying.

A week or two after I got my denial letter, one of my animals was attacked by a feral animal which in turn tried to attack me. I attempted to retreat into my house but ended up shooting the animal inside the garage resulting in a mess that took hours to clean up. I just feel blessed that I was on my own property where I had access to a weapon and not out for a walk when this happened. But then I guess something like that can only happen on your own property and I have no need to carry when I am out and about :rolleyes:

You should have called the Sheriff's office then so he could personally see your bloodied garage. At least a deputy to witness that the scene was real. Great photo op! Then ask about reversing that denial letter.

moleculo
06-02-2011, 7:34 PM
Interesting enough, there is a story today on KTLA.com about a coyote that attacked a dog while being walked by an elderly lady. The dog died. Now the authorities are trying to find the coyote:

http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktla-laguna-woods-coyote,0,1818117.story

gunsmith
06-02-2011, 8:18 PM
I live in Northern Nevada, my nearest neighbor is 5 miles away.
We have yotes all over but they tend to stay away from humans.

We shot them on sight, They've learned humans are real dangerous.
The chickens,cats,dogs all roam the 60 acres at will.

In fact the dogs steal food from the yotes.

Suburban people have fed the yotes and taught them not to fear.

Start killing them & they learn the just how dangerous we can be.

Wernher von Browning
06-02-2011, 8:27 PM
Suburban people have fed the yotes and taught them not to fear.

Start killing them & they learn the just how dangerous we can be.


Agree, but they have to associate humans with instant death of their buddies. Traps and poison may not have that effect.

Problem is, hunting 'em with rifles is nearly impossible here -- they live in these small islands of wild land between housing development, home tracts, etc. You guys all know the performance of rifle bullets -- how many thousands of feet they'll fly (regardless of how inaccurate), and many inches of pine they'll penetrate. These 2x4 and stucco houses won't stop anything.

Carrying pistols for on-demand, personal protection is different. That was why I brought this up -- there is a real problem, as witnessed by another tragic incident and another human requiring emergency treatment. One answer to that problem is CCW.

In a related note, hunting varmints -- (yeah, I know, they're not, but still) --
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2011/jun/01/forest-service-and-blm-plan-exterminate-countys-wi/

Typical California. Throw money (we ain't got) at the problem. Helicopters? Satellite transponders??? Never mind the tag fee; just put a bounty on 'em and watch the carcasses pile up.

Davidwhitewolf
06-03-2011, 1:43 PM
We don't get many 'yotes in Livermore proper (I saw one outside Las Positas College once), but I figure bringing my wolf (http://www.softgreenglow.com/wp/?p=9449) to a 'yote fight would leave me in good shape.

He hunts moles, too! I've seen him dig up three of 'em. Pretty amazing to watch, actually.

Wernher von Browning
06-03-2011, 2:13 PM
... but I figure bringing my wolf (http://www.softgreenglow.com/wp/?p=9449) to a 'yote fight would leave me in good shape.


(All together now!) AWWWWWW!!!!! :)

And for the moles... If you can train him to do that for a living, it's better than having a truffle-hunting pig. Mole coats! Mole range bags! Mole quacamole cozies!

Hunt
06-03-2011, 2:44 PM
the purpose of the State is to feed itself, using you as food! not to protect you from yotes, now if the State sees a way to criminalize something in this yote situation and further enhance it's buffet upon the citizenry then they will, so be careful, you hunt yotes in your yard in the City, the State hunts you.

Wernher von Browning
06-03-2011, 3:23 PM
the purpose of the State is to feed itself, using you as food!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leviathan_%28book%29

Yankee Clipper
06-03-2011, 8:37 PM
It would seem to me, Wernher von Browning, that because your problem, besides our semi-wonderful Sheriff, are the coyotes in your back yard attempting to allivate our over population problem here in O.C. I'd suggest using a crossbow: it doesn't have a receiver so it doesn't fall into the pellet gun, airrifle, firearm catagory of the quoted law. Unlike a bow & arrow, it is also more like the rifle you're probably used to firing. So you could use it to eliminate your backyard problem until we get our 'normal' 2A rights restored. Your problem then would be how to get rid of the coyote carcasses: call anaimal control? (Just kidding!)

Wernher von Browning
06-03-2011, 10:48 PM
It would seem to me, Wernher von Browning, that because your problem, besides our semi-wonderful Sheriff, are the coyotes in your back yard attempting to allivate our over population problem here in O.C. I'd suggest using a crossbow: it doesn't have a receiver so it doesn't fall into the pellet gun, airrifle, firearm catagory of the quoted law. Unlike a bow & arrow, it is also more like the rifle you're probably used to firing. So you could use it to eliminate your backyard problem until we get our 'normal' 2A rights restored. Your problem then would be how to get rid of the coyote carcasses: call anaimal control? (Just kidding!)

Well, I don't have a problem. At least not a coyote problem. (I do, however, belong to a drinking club with a shooting problem, but that's a different story). Thanks for the crossbow advice, but go back and read the original post. One more time: My point is that the potential of being attacked by wild animals while just walking your dog or cat or wallaby or giant rat of Sumatra or whatever, may be yet another thing to bring up IN COURT when arguing in favor of shall-issue CCW. (See Peruta v. San Diego; see judge's reasoning that since UOC is allowed, there's no need for CCW. The coyote problem, in my opinion, is one reason CCW is needed). Unloaded open carry is worthless because of the 1000 ft from school rule. Yesterday a woman in Laguna Niguel had to go to the hospital after a coyote attack in a residential area. Needed stitches and rabies shots. CCW might, with some luck, prevent that sort of thing.

I don't have a coyote problem. Never even saw one. I don't walk pets, I don't have pets in the yard. I'm absolutely not interested in UOC; it's self-defeating. I might be interested in CCW. I'm not arguing a CCW case in court. But, other people have and do and are, so I'm thinking this may be a useful angle.

A crossbow? Really? There's a reason people don't keep a crossbow in the nightstand... If crossbows become fashionable, I'll just go one better and wear a suit of armor as I clank around the 'hood. THEN they can bring on the coyotes.

As for animal control, they're a joke anyway. I understand they may all be laid off real soon now. Not that anybody would notice.

gunsmith
06-03-2011, 10:55 PM
Agree, but they have to associate humans with instant death of their buddies. Traps and poison may not have that effect.



Around here they are sometimes shot then hung along the fence line to rot, reminding other yotes that human = death .

stockranger
06-04-2011, 7:04 AM
I was just looking at some airguns at either midway or cabelas I forget which one it was.

.25 caliber at 1,000 fps designed for coyote size game!

The coyote are out of control! If you have ever heard a coyote call a dieing rabbits sounds just like a crying baby! an unattended crying baby is like coyote bait!

Screw the coyote, worry about the cats! I often go to irvine park with my dog. Couple years ago the dog was attacked by a mtn lion and then we had a stand off for about 1/2 hour. I called and let the parks know they quarantined my dog for rabbies and said the cat belongs at the park and they would not investigate the attack! I have seen another cougar at peters canyon. Now that is a reson to carry. I have never returned to irvine park but I now carry a sidearm anytime it is legal when hunting fishing and hiking. I'm basicaly too scared to recreate alone in our local hills now. Hopefully the cougars will eat a few more MTN. Bikers and hikers and they will do something about them!

Baxter
06-04-2011, 10:52 AM
According to ccrs a trapped animal must be killed on site of trapping or released on the property it was captured. Not 300 feet away.

You said you weren't having coyote problems, but your neighbor could call an Animal damage control specialist and have the coyotes snared and removed.
You could also do it for here with a trappers license. If they are are still live in the snares( highly unlikely) just gas them. Quiet and legal.

ClickClickBoom
06-04-2011, 7:40 PM
i would go to a mole hunt. those things are completely rude.
I had one flip me off and curse at me, and it farted!
Eric

Wernher von Browning
06-04-2011, 10:07 PM
I often go to irvine park with my dog. Couple years ago the dog was attacked by a mtn lion and then we had a stand off for about 1/2 hour. I called and let the parks know they quarantined my dog for rabbies and said the cat belongs at the park and they would not investigate the attack! I have seen another cougar at peters canyon. Now that is a reson to carry. I have never returned to irvine park but I now carry a sidearm anytime it is legal when hunting fishing and hiking. I'm basicaly too scared to recreate alone in our local hills now. Hopefully the cougars will eat a few more MTN. Bikers and hikers and they will do something about them!

Not likely. The county is staffed by idiots with the teachability and attention span of gnats. Witness:

http://articles.latimes.com/1993-10-22/news/mn-48511_1_lion-attacks/3

But that's OK, it's not their money. It's YOURS.