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UNDFTD
05-30-2011, 9:16 AM
answered

drifter001
05-30-2011, 9:19 AM
as far as i know, no...my brother is 19 and getting ready to buy his first .223 lower

morrcarr67
05-30-2011, 9:23 AM
I'm used to buying complete rifles but I think it's time I built my own AR.

Is it true that if you're under 21 you can't get an FFL to do your lower because it *can* be considered a pistol part?

Thanks

In other states that might be a problem because someone can buy any AR lower and build a pistol out of it.

Because of CA DROS rules these lowers are sold as "long guns" and you only need to 18 years old to buy a long gun.

r6raff
05-30-2011, 9:25 AM
Umm... unless they changed it recently (like the last month) Lowers are listed as Other and have a minimum age requirement of 21.

This has been discussed numerous times, search and you will see

Fjold
05-30-2011, 9:27 AM
In other states that might be a problem because someone can buy any AR lower and build a pistol out of it.

Because of CA DROS rules these lowers are sold as "long guns" and you only need to 18 years old to buy a long gun.

Actually, stripped lowers are not long guns. It's been covered here numerous times. Long guns require a buttstock that's why <21 year olds cannot buy pistol grip (only) shotguns either.

r6raff
05-30-2011, 9:28 AM
This guy is making an 80% for instance because he is under 21

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=428176&highlight=age+stripped+lower

morrcarr67
05-30-2011, 9:28 AM
Actually, stripped lowers are not long guns. It's been covered here numerous times. Long guns require a buttstock that's why <21 year olds cannot buy pistol grip (only) shotguns either.

I thought "rifles" required a butt stock?

UNDFTD
05-30-2011, 9:30 AM
Umm... unless they changed it recently (like the last month) Lowers are listed as Other and have a minimum age requirement of 21.

This has been discussed numerous times, search and you will see

Thanks for the info. Sorry about making another thread.

Screw it I guess I'll stick to pre-mades

r6raff
05-30-2011, 9:32 AM
In other states that might be a problem because someone can buy any AR lower and build a pistol out of it.

Because of CA DROS rules these lowers are sold as "long guns" and you only need to 18 years old to buy a long gun.

Also, you can build a pistol in CA I believe, singleshot exemption. I think thats one of the reasons lowers are listed as Other, because they can be either. Don;t quote me on the pistol stuff, im not to privy on that info.

r6raff
05-30-2011, 9:34 AM
Thanks for the info. Sorry about making another thread.

Screw it I guess I'll stick to pre-mades

Don't get your hopes up, but I think you may be able to buy a complete lower... Something to look into atleast. Otherwise, there are some decent priced used ARs on the Market place.

UNDFTD
05-30-2011, 9:36 AM
Also, you can build a pistol in CA I believe, singleshot exemption. I think thats one of the reasons lowers are listed as Other, because they can be either. Don;t quote me on the pistol stuff, im not to privy on that info.

Quick question, I was skimming that thread and wondering If it was legal to buy an 80% lower and take it to a gunsmith to do the hard work. :P

dieselpower
05-30-2011, 9:37 AM
Some FFLs will over look age...some will not. Go talk to some FFLs.

dieselpower
05-30-2011, 9:38 AM
Quick question, I was skimming that thread and wondering If it was legal to buy an 80% lower and take it to a gunsmith to do the hard work. :P

no, the one who does the work is the owner. they would then have to sell it to you and use an FFL, you have to wait the 10 days and complete a dros.

Many FFLs will not transfer an unmarked lower or one that was built up from a 80%.

pontiacpratt
05-30-2011, 9:39 AM
Quick question, I was skimming that thread and wondering If it was legal to buy an 80% lower and take it to a gunsmith to do the hard work. :P

Yep... 80% are not a firearm so no age requirement if IIRC.
Diesel brought up a good point... if someone else does it it's manufacturing... so I change my answer to no.

r6raff
05-30-2011, 9:50 AM
Yep... 80% are not a firearm so no age requirement if IIRC.
Diesel brought up a good point... if someone else does it it's manufacturing... so I change my answer to no.

Actually he can, there are machinists who have CNC machines with the "pattern/design?" already. You go to their shop, put the lower in and YOU push start. As long as you push the button, you machined it yourself and are good to go.

You can NOT send or give the lower to someone else to make and give it back, that is manufacturing and will require a FFL

OP : PM Seems, he was going to help me out with some 80% lowers a while back, if he can't He may know someone who can, or post in the gunsmithing section asking for someone with the equipment who can help you out... it will cost you, probably about 50% more than a standard stripped lower, but you get to personalize it... like write, "got to be 21 my ***"

rareair
05-30-2011, 9:50 AM
Quick question, I was skimming that thread and wondering If it was legal to buy an 80% lower and take it to a gunsmith to do the hard work. :P

Gunsmith would have to be FFL07 status. If you find a gunsmith that is so equipped to finish an 80%, they would also be required to engrave the following info onto it: Model, serial #, caliber, place of construction (City & State) and their name.

r6raff
05-30-2011, 9:52 AM
Gunsmith would have to be FFL07 status. If you find a gunsmith that is so equipped to finish an 80%, they would also be required to engrave the following info onto it: Model, serial #, caliber, place of construction (City & State) and their name.

Or he can be there the entire time and push start on the CNC machine, leave that day and put whatever he wants on the receiver

rareair
05-30-2011, 9:52 AM
I thought "rifles" required a butt stock?

Some rifles do NOT have a butt stock (ie tactical shotguns with just a pistol grip)

But installing a stock on a pistol would constitute construction of an assault weapon (SBR) as most pistols have a barrel length that measures under 16"

rareair
05-30-2011, 9:54 AM
Thanks for the info.

Screw it I guess I'll stick to pre-mades

Don't be discouraged. First buy an 80% receiver, they can be had for $80-$150 depending on material (forged vs Billet)

Once in your possession, you can search out for local build parties and get construction of your AR pistol started.

rareair
05-30-2011, 9:57 AM
Or he can be there the entire time and push start on the CNC machine, leave that day and put whatever he wants on the receiver

Sure he can, if he can find a gunsmith willing to allow such a procedure. FFL07s usually won't walk that line. It would be easier to locate other local enthusiasts with access to a drill press and/or milling machine willing to help other gun enthusiasts out

r6raff
05-30-2011, 10:01 AM
Sure he can, if he can find a gunsmith willing to allow such a procedure. FFL07s usually won't walk that line. It would be easier to locate other local enthusiasts with access to a drill press and/or milling machine willing to help other gun enthusiasts out

Depending on his location, when I was interested in doing some custom lowers for me and my brother I found 3 people who had the equipment within 100 miles of me. Each were asking about 100 bucks a pop to have me come make them. I am sure the OP can find someone, he just needs to post in the right section directing it at the right people.

I never did get them made though :( soon hopefully, just didn't have the time to make it all happen.

bluebird
05-30-2011, 10:13 AM
This guy is making an 80% for instance because he is under 21

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=428176&highlight=age+stripped+lower

No I'm not building an 80% anymore. The cost of building a 80% is way more than buying a stripped lower for starters (and also that under 21 problem). Norse Armory said he can build me a complete rifle so I'm going that route. Not sure when exactly I'm going to do it but it will be within a few months.

r6raff
05-30-2011, 10:18 AM
No I'm not building an 80% anymore. The cost of building a 80% is way more than buying a stripped lower for starters (and also that under 21 problem). Norse Armory said he can build me a complete rifle so I'm going that route. Not sure when exactly I'm going to do it but it will be within a few months.

Bummer you have to wait that long. What was your over all cost going to be? When I was loooking I found 80% lowers for 50-60bucks and someone with a CNC mill who was going to charge me (i think) $100 a pop... that was for 3 though so it could have been a deal on quantity. Either way, my projected cost was going to be about $150-$160 a lower, not bad considering I spent $120 on my stag and spikes.

morrcarr67
05-30-2011, 10:51 AM
Some rifles do NOT have a butt stock (ie tactical shotguns with just a pistol grip)

But installing a stock on a pistol would constitute construction of an assault weapon (SBR) as most pistols have a barrel length that measures under 16"

Ok. Let's go back to my original statement. I said that these were DROSed as a "Long Gun" and the other guy said that long guns have to have stocks on them. I said I thought "rifles" need to have stocks on them.

Now you are bringing "shotguns" into the question.

On the federal 4473's AR frames are listed as "Other". On the state DROS they are listed as "Long Guns".

Keep in mind all rifles and shotguns are "long guns"; but, not all "Long Guns" are rifles or shotguns.

So my question is still out there to be answered.

I thought "rifles" need to have stocks on them?

And, creating a SBR is not an AW; it's a NFA controlled weapon.

dieselpower
05-30-2011, 10:58 AM
Ok. Let's go back to my original statement. I said that these were DROSed as a "Long Gun" and the other guy said that long guns have to have stocks on them. I said I thought "rifles" need to have stocks on them.

Now you are bringing "shotguns" into the question.

On the federal 4473's AR frames are listed as "Other". On the state DROS they are listed as "Long Guns".

Keep in mind all rifles and shotguns are "long guns"; but, not all "Long Guns" are rifles or shotguns.

So my question is still out there to be answered.

I thought "rifles" need to have stocks on them?

And, creating a SBR is not an AW; it's a NFA controlled weapon.

921 definitions = http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/718/usc_sec_18_00000921----000-.html

The term “rifle” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger

Mssr. Eleganté
05-30-2011, 11:00 AM
...I thought "rifles" need to have stocks on them?


Yes, rifles and shotguns need to have stocks on them or had a stock on them at some time in the past.

dieselpower
05-30-2011, 11:03 AM
Yes, rifles and shotguns need to have stocks on them or had a stock on them at some time in the past.

I disagree, but I understand why you think that.

A stock is ONE WAY to design a firearm to be fired from the shoulder, any designed way to fire from a shouldered position = rifle.

morrcarr67
05-30-2011, 11:08 AM
921 definitions = http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/718/usc_sec_18_00000921----000-.html

Right going back to my original post

In other states that might be a problem because someone can buy any AR lower and build a pistol out of it.

Because of CA DROS rules these lowers are sold as "long guns" and you only need to 18 years old to buy a long gun.

I was trying to get this guy to answer the question.

Actually, stripped lowers are not long guns. It's been covered here numerous times. Long guns require a buttstock that's why <21 year olds cannot buy pistol grip (only) shotguns either.

Because I know the 921 definition of a rifle. I wanted to see if this guy knew the answer.

Like I said these are DROSed in CA as "Long Guns".

CA is the only state that has this stupid DROS system and CA dealers are forced to DROS these as "Long Guns" because they are not on the roster of handguns approved for sale in CA so they can't be DROSed as such.

Which also brings me back to my first post.

If buy CA law these have to be DROSed as "Long Guns" and you only need to be 18 years old to buy a "Long Gun" why can't someone who is 19 years old buy one?

Mssr. Eleganté
05-30-2011, 11:11 AM
...If buy CA law these have to be DROSed as "Long Guns" and you only need to be 18 years old to buy a "Long Gun" why can't someone who is 19 years old buy one?

Federal law says you need to be at least 21 years of age to acquire any firearm from an FFL, unless that firearm is a rifle or shotgun. There is no exemption for "long guns". The exemption is only for rifles and shotguns. A stripped lower is not a rifle or shotgun.

morrcarr67
05-30-2011, 11:14 AM
Federal law says you need to be at least 21 years of age to acquire any firearm from an FFL, unless that firearm is a rifle or shotgun. There is no exemption for "long guns". The exemption is only for rifles and shotguns. A stripped lower is not a rifle or shotgun.

Thanks. Know I know why they have to be 21.

ke6guj
05-30-2011, 11:15 AM
Right going back to my original post



I was trying to get this guy to answer the question.



Because I know the 921 definition of a rifle. I wanted to see if this guy knew the answer.

Like I said these are DROSed in CA as "Long Guns".

CA is the only state that has this stupid DROS system and CA dealers are forced to DROS these as "Long Guns" because they are not on the roster of handguns approved for sale in CA so they can't be DROSed as such.

Which also brings me back to my first post.

If buy CA law these have to be DROSed as "Long Guns" and you only need to be 18 years old to buy a "Long Gun" why can't someone who is 19 years old buy one?

because even though CA says it is a long gun, federally, it is considered an "other" and is not a rifle or shotgun. federal law says you have to be 21 to transfer ANY firearm through a dealer, except for a rifle or shotgun where you can be 18. A stripped lower is NOT a rifle or shotgun, so you don't get to use the rifle/shotgun exemption to the 21-year old requirement.

CSACANNONEER
05-30-2011, 11:16 AM
In other states that might be a problem because someone can buy any AR lower and build a pistol out of it.

Because of CA DROS rules these lowers are sold as "long guns" and you only need to 18 years old to buy a long gun.

No, you are wrong. It is illegal on a Federal level to sell a stripped receiver to
anyone under 21. Ca's DROS really has nothing to do with it. In fact, ATF doesn't give a damn if a receiver is DROSed as a long gun, handgun or dildo weilding gazzelle. It is still a stripped receiver under the law.

This guy is making an 80% for instance because he is under 21

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=428176&highlight=age+stripped+lower

So what? It's not illegal for a 2 year old to make a long gun from an 80% lower nor is it illegal for an 18 year old to manufacture their own firearm. The fact is that it is illegal for anyone under 18 to purchase a long gun and, it is illegal for anyone under 21 to purchase a stripped receiver or any firearm other than a long gun.

Quick question, I was skimming that thread and wondering If it was legal to buy an 80% lower and take it to a gunsmith to do the hard work. :P

Sure, but once you find an 07FFL who can legally do this for you, he/she could not return it to you without DROSing it to you. If you are not 21, you're back where you started and out a ton of money.

Some FFLs will over look age...some will not. Go talk to some FFLs.

I doubt that there are any FFLs who are willing to break the law and risk loosing their bussiness just to make a couple of dollars on a stripped lower.

Some rifles do NOT have a butt stock (ie tactical shotguns with just a pistol grip)

But installing a stock on a pistol would constitute construction of an assault weapon (SBR) as most pistols have a barrel length that measures under 16"

Please provide an example of a weapon designed to be fired from the shoulder which does not have a buttstock on it.

I disagree, but I understand why you think that.

A stock is ONE WAY to design a firearm to be fired from the shoulder, any designed way to fire from a shouldered position = rifle.

Technically, this is correct but, can you provide an example that ATF has agrred with?

morrcarr67
05-30-2011, 11:17 AM
because even though CA says it is a long gun, federally, it is considered an "other" and is not a rifle or shotgun. federal law says you have to be 21 to transfer ANY firearm through a dealer, except for a rifle or shotgun where you can be 18. A stripped lower is NOT a rifle or shotgun, so you don't get to use the rifle/shotgun exemption to the 21-year old requirement.

Thanks Jack

rojocorsa
05-30-2011, 11:17 AM
Bull**** California laws are so confusing, I hate them.

I made a thread about this very subject when I wanted a DD or a BCM. The consensus is that if you're not 21, it's a no-go on even a complete lower (at least that's what I got out of my thread).

So I said f_ck it, I'm getting an nice AK instead. Either an Arsenal SGL or an SJgunguy build, I'm not exactly sure which one...


Oh yeah, from that thread I also learned that if I wanted to buy something like an NDS receiver, that I couldn't do that either unless I were 21. I'm not planning on building my first AK, but I guess I would have taken the traditional pre-drilled flat and Romy G kit path...






Are stripped and complete* lowers legally considered the same thing?


*One with a rifle stock.

CSACANNONEER
05-30-2011, 11:21 AM
Bull**** California laws are so confusing, I hate them.



You seem more confused than anything. California laws are not in question here. This is about Federal law.

UNDFTD
05-30-2011, 11:21 AM
Bummer you have to wait that long. What was your over all cost going to be? When I was loooking I found 80% lowers for 50-60bucks and someone with a CNC mill who was going to charge me (i think) $100 a pop... that was for 3 though so it could have been a deal on quantity. Either way, my projected cost was going to be about $150-$160 a lower, not bad considering I spent $120 on my stag and spikes.

Looks like it's gonna cost $250 for the milling adapters/jig/lower.

+ Cost of gunsmith help/tools

Trying to decide if its worth the time/money...

http://www.cncguns.com/tooling.html

CSACANNONEER
05-30-2011, 11:22 AM
Looks like it's gonna cost $250 for the milling adapters/jig/lower.

+ Cost of gunsmith help/tools

Trying to decide if its worth the time/money...

http://www.cncguns.com/tooling.html

Don't forget the fact that, if an 07FFL does the work, it will need to be DROSed to you and that can't happen unless it is a complete rifle or you are over 21.

rojocorsa
05-30-2011, 11:30 AM
You seem more confused than anything. California laws are not in question here. This is about Federal law.

I am pretty confused. Thanks for clarifying that this is a federal matter though. At the end of the day, living in California doesn't help anything. I am slowly coming to terms with the reality of mag laws here.



Trying to decide if its worth the time/money...

Seems like too much trouble for a single lower. Unless you want a bunch of them if you can find access to a machine. But like CSA said, if it's an 07 FFL, it would be pointless anyway.

At this point, I'd just get a quality complete rifle and spend the rest on ammo.

dieselpower
05-30-2011, 11:39 AM
2 things CSACannoneer,
1) There have been SEVERAL guys on this website who posted they bought a stripped lower from a gun shop and are under 21.

2) The law says shouldered...doesnt say equipped with a stock. while I can not link or even know of something that fits that bill...that doesn't stop the law. You design a buffer tube with a rubber stop on the end and while its not a stock is designed to ease the recoil into the shoulder therefore its meets the legal 921 definition of a rifle...and if the barrel is shorter than 16"....

ke6guj
05-30-2011, 11:46 AM
2 things CSACannoneer,
1) There have been SEVERAL guys on this website who posted they bought a stripped lower from a gun shop and are under 21.
just because their FFL is not up to speed on ATF's position on the matter does not make it legal. If a CG'er finds an FFL that is breaking the law by selling stripped lowers to those under 21, good for the CG'er, but don't plan on it. And there could be future drama for that <21-buyer when ATF audits the FFL.



2) The law says shouldered...doesnt say equipped with a stock. while I can not link or even know of something that fits that bill...that doesn't stop the law. You design a buffer tube with a rubber stop on the end and while its not a stock is designed to ease the recoil into the shoulder therefore its meets the legal 921 definition of a rifle...and if the barrel is shorter than 16"....

the actual federal definition of a rifle is as follows:

Rifle. A weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder, and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed metallic cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger.

ATF has said that installing a cane tip to the end of a pistol buffer tube on a pistol does not make it an SBR.

rareair
05-30-2011, 11:47 AM
At the end of the day, living in California doesn't help anything. I am slowly coming to terms with the reality of mag laws here.

California isn't the worst when it comes to firearm ownership. Check the laws in Hawaii & New York. Those States, and others, are more strict. Grass isn't always Greener on the other side

morrcarr67
05-30-2011, 11:49 AM
California isn't the worst when it comes to firearm ownership. Check the laws in Hawaii & New York. Those States, and others, are more strict. Grass isn't always Greener on the other side

Don't forget Massachusetts. They have a pistol roster of sorts too.

dieselpower
05-30-2011, 11:51 AM
Don't forget Massachusetts. They have a pistol roster of sorts too.

I think you are allowed to build your own silencer in Massachusetts though... so it balances out. LOL I could be wrong, I know its one of those North Eastern States

CSACANNONEER
05-30-2011, 12:01 PM
2 things CSACannoneer,
1) There have been SEVERAL guys on this website who posted they bought a stripped lower from a gun shop and are under 21.

2) The law says shouldered...doesnt say equipped with a stock. while I can not link or even know of something that fits that bill...that doesn't stop the law. You design a buffer tube with a rubber stop on the end and while its not a stock is designed to ease the recoil into the shoulder therefore its meets the legal 921 definition of a rifle...and if the barrel is shorter than 16"....

A few years ago, it was common practise to sell stripped receivers to those under 21. Then, ATF put a stop to it. If there are still FFLs doing this, they are at risk of loosing their license, livelyhood and possibly even their freedom. But, I'm not saying that it's not possible for a FFL to be that stupid. Maybe, the one(s) you know of, who are doing this, have been married as long as fjoid.

Now, please explain to me just how putting a piece of rubber on a buffer tube would make it into a "rifle". Obviously, ATF has a different opinion. Not only is their opinion in writting, it also holds a lot more legal weight than yours or mine does. I'm still trying to come up with an idea of how something can be "designed to be fired from the shoulder" and yet, not have a stock (I would call anything designed to be pressed against a shoulder a "stock") on it.

CSACANNONEER
05-30-2011, 12:05 PM
I think you are allowed to build your own silencer in Massachusetts though... so it balances out. LOL I could be wrong, I know its one of those North Eastern States

LOL. Mass is not a surpressor friendly state at all.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=6489138&postcount=33

bwiese
05-30-2011, 12:16 PM
A few years ago, it was common practise to sell stripped receivers to those under 21. Then, ATF put a stop to it. If there are still FFLs doing this, they are at risk of loosing their license, livelyhood and possibly even their freedom. But, I'm not saying that it's not possible for a FFL to be that stupid.

Yup.

BATF issued clarifications in their FFL Newsletters at end of 99 and beginning of 2000 clarifying this.

GCA '68 has exemptions for *rifles* and *shotguns* to be sold to those 18 to 21 yrs old.

A lower is not a rifle or a shotgun. Especially good examples are the Rem 870/Mossy 500 'cruiser'- style shotguns equipped with pistol grips only: those are not sellable to those btwn 18 and 21 *unless* a buttstock is attached or sold in the package with the gun.

r6raff
05-30-2011, 12:42 PM
Looks like it's gonna cost $250 for the milling adapters/jig/lower.

+ Cost of gunsmith help/tools

Trying to decide if its worth the time/money...

http://www.cncguns.com/tooling.html

It would be foolish to buy all that to make 1 lower, find someone who has access to a mill and pay them for you to push the button. I don't know where you live but if your in northern California then contact Seems, I know, at least last year, he was able to do this for me, I think he was near Sac. If you plan on making multiple or hosting build parties then go for it, but for 1, it would seem rather illogical compared to just buying a complete rifle from the market place or a retailer



So what? It's not illegal for a 2 year old to make a long gun from an 80% lower nor is it illegal for an 18 year old to manufacture their own firearm. The fact is that it is illegal for anyone under 18 to purchase a long gun and, it is illegal for anyone under 21 to purchase a stripped receiver or any firearm other than a long gun.


What was the point of this reply? This info was already known. Just curious at what I am suppose to draw from this post.

CSACANNONEER
05-30-2011, 1:17 PM
Whoops, no one has mentioned the simplest and cheapest ways for the OP to obtain a stripped lower. The first one is super simple, just have a parent buy it and give it to you. No other paperwork is required. The second one is a litle more complicated and expensive. First, have a friend (obviously over 21) buy a stripped lower. Then, after the lower is in his/her possession, you provide all the parts and help assemble it into a rifle. Now, go back to a FFL and do a PPT into your name. It's that simple and it's not a straw purchase as long as the friend is really buying it for him/her to learn how to assemble one and then sell it later. Or, the friend could even legally buy it with the intention of building a rifle and giving it to you (you could be nice and give him/her cash in return). Of course, even a gift would need to be properly PPTed to you. There is nothing illegal about buying a firearm with the intention of it becoming a gift as long as the receiving party is not a prohibited person and all laws are followed. Again, in Ca, this means either an intrafamiluar transfer or a gift which has to be PPTed.

What was the point of this reply? This info was already known. Just curious at what I am suppose to draw from this post.

First, it adds to your post by helping to clarify legality of manufacturing one's own firearm and at what age one can manufacture what. Secondly, it again answers the OP's question about purchasing a stripped lower from a FFL which, your post didn't. Obviously, the OP did not already know any of this info. If he had, he would not be asking about it.

r6raff
05-30-2011, 1:38 PM
First, it adds to your post by helping to clarify legality of manufacturing one's own firearm and at what age one can manufacture what. Secondly, it again answers the OP's question about purchasing a stripped lower from a FFL which, your post didn't. Obviously, the OP did not already know any of this info. If he had, he would not be asking about it.

Actually I answered his question in my previous post, maybe you missed it... What you quoted was just an example of what searching can produce. I didn't feel the necessity of educating him on the history or manufacturing. His question was simple and so was the answer.

Question: Can I buy a stripped lower under the age of 21?

Answer: No, but you can build one. Doesn't take 1 and half pages to figure that out.

Good call on the parent gifting it loop hole, or the friend building and then selling it to him complete. You should have mentioned it sooner though, but maybe it slipped your mind as well, as most people don't have a need to regularly circumvent the system like that, it therefor is not the first thing to pops in one's head.

CSACANNONEER
05-30-2011, 1:43 PM
Good call on the parent gifting it loop hole, or the friend building and then selling it to him complete. You should have mentioned it sooner though, but maybe it slipped your mind as well, as most people don't have a need to regularly circumvent the system like that, it therefor is not the first thing to pop in ones head.

Yep, both meathods slipped my mind until I was responding to your post. Anyway, I definately do not think either meathod is a loop hole nor a way to circumvent the system. Both meathods have been legal for many years and even when "they" started putting age restrictions on purchasing, "they" intentionally left the age of owning, possessing, manufacturing, etc. out of the mix.

r6raff
05-30-2011, 2:06 PM
Yep, both meathods slipped my mind until I was responding to your post. Anyway, I definately do not think either meathod is a loop hole nor a way to circumvent the system. Both meathods have been legal for many years and even when "they" started putting age restrictions on purchasing, "they" intentionally left the age of owning, possessing, manufacturing, etc. out of the mix.

Yea, both ways are perfectly legal, when I saw loophole/circumvent it was in regards to the fact that the goal is the same, while using alternative methods rather than what would normally be done. Either way, both methods would be far easier and cheaper opposed to the 80% lower, unless you have great access and a desire to do so.

762.DEFENSE
05-30-2011, 2:25 PM
Umm... unless they changed it recently (like the last month) Lowers are listed as Other and have a minimum age requirement of 21.

This has been discussed numerous times, search and you will see

This.

You need to be 21 to purchase a Lower in CA.

/thread.

Cokebottle
05-30-2011, 2:26 PM
as far as i know, no...my brother is 19 and getting ready to buy his first .223 lower
His FFL will get spanked on an audit if he does it.

Cokebottle
05-30-2011, 2:29 PM
Also, you can build a pistol in CA I believe, singleshot exemption. I think thats one of the reasons lowers are listed as Other, because they can be either. Don;t quote me on the pistol stuff, im not to privy on that info.
The problem is, you cannot single shot a stripped lower.

You can build a pistol from an 80% lower (it must be single shot at completion, may then be converted to semi-auto), or you can single-shot the purchase of a completed AR/AK pistol.

You cannot single-shot a stripped lower because it is not dimensionally compliant... minimum barrel length 6", minimum OAL 10.5"
If it has no barrel, there's no way to single shot it.

dieselpower
05-30-2011, 2:34 PM
{snip}
Now, please explain to me just how putting a piece of rubber on a buffer tube would make it into a "rifle". Obviously, ATF has a different opinion. Not only is their opinion in writting, it also holds a lot more legal weight than yours or mine does. I'm still trying to come up with an idea of how something can be "designed to be fired from the shoulder" and yet, not have a stock (I would call anything designed to be pressed against a shoulder a "stock") on it.

I have nothing for you other than it doesn't say "stock". The law is,
The term “rifle” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger .

what a letter from the BATFE or Jesus Christ does for you in court... if a DA comes after you.... is your good deal...thats not the law. A "stock" is not needed for something to be a defined rifle.

Cokebottle
05-30-2011, 2:37 PM
Or he can be there the entire time and push start on the CNC machine, leave that day and put whatever he wants on the receiver
Questionably legal.

One shop was busted for doing this a few years ago.
Now the catch... they were an 01FFL. Their reading of the law was that as long as they did not do the machine work, they were GTG.
The BATFE's reading of the law was that they allowed manufacturing to take place on their premises, it didn't matter whether the person pushing the button was a paid employee or not.
Some rifles do NOT have a butt stock (ie tactical shotguns with just a pistol grip)
Those are written up on the 4473 as "other" and may not be transferred to a person under 21.
No I'm not building an 80% anymore. The cost of building a 80% is way more than buying a stripped lower for starters (and also that under 21 problem). Norse Armory said he can build me a complete rifle so I'm going that route. Not sure when exactly I'm going to do it but it will be within a few months.
Smart way to go.

With stripped lowers (and completed builds) being so "cheap" (compared to 2008), there are only three reasons to build from an 80% today:
1 - You want a pistol (completed pistols are still fairly expensive)
2 - You want to build a true M4 clone with a 14.5" barrel and pinned muzzle device, and want to do the build yourself. You must have a lower that can legally be built into a pistol in order to legally take possession of the short barrel.
3 - You proudly wear your :TFH: and want to have a 100% paperless gun.
Ok. Let's go back to my original statement. I said that these were DROSed as a "Long Gun" and the other guy said that long guns have to have stocks on them. I said I thought "rifles" need to have stocks on them.

Now you are bringing "shotguns" into the question.

On the federal 4473's AR frames are listed as "Other". On the state DROS they are listed as "Long Guns".

Keep in mind all rifles and shotguns are "long guns"; but, not all "Long Guns" are rifles or shotguns.

That is a catch-22 of the California DROS software not matching the 4473.

In California, if it is not on the roster, or if it is not roster exempt, it MUST be listed as "long gun"
Per BATFE, if it does not have BOTH a buttstock and a barrel at least 16" long, it must be listed as "handgun" or "other"

So yes... it must have a buttstock AND a barrel at least 16" long to be listed on the 4473 as "rifle", which means that if it does not, it cannot be transferred to anyone under 21.
That's not California law... that is Federal. An 18 year old in Arizona cannot legally purchase a stripped lower.
If buy CA law these have to be DROSed as "Long Guns" and you only need to be 18 years old to buy a "Long Gun" why can't someone who is 19 years old buy one?
For the same reason that the California Safe Affidavit is valid for long gun purchases but not for handgun purchases.
Federal law says you have to be 21 to buy anything other than a "rifle"
Federal law says that all handguns shall be furnished with a child-safe lock.
Federal law does not recognize the California Safe Affidavit, and Federal law doesn't care if the California DROS software calls a stripped lower a "banana"... the 4473 calls it "other" and you have to be 21 to receive it.

CSACANNONEER
05-30-2011, 2:43 PM
Cokebottle,

Go back and find the post were I gave the OP an additional two ways for someone under 21 to legally aquire a commercially produced lower.

what a letter from the BATFE or Jesus Christ does for you in court... if a DA comes after you.... is your good deal...thats not the law. A "stock" is not needed for something to be a defined rifle.

I agree but, I still can't imagine how to design something that is designed to be fired from the shoulder and does not meet any definition of "stock". Even your idea about a buffer tube with a rubber stopper on it could fit most, if not all, definitions of "butt stock".

dieselpower
05-30-2011, 2:45 PM
Cokebottle,

Go back and find the post were I gave the OP an additional two ways for someone under 21 to legally aquire a commercially produced lower.



I agree but, I still can't imagine how to design something that is designed to be fired from the shoulder and does not meet any definition of "stock". Even your idea about a buffer tube with a rubber stopper on it could fit most, if not all, definitions of "butt stock".

and the AG and DoJ had no clue what a Bullet Button would be either....LOL

CSACANNONEER
05-30-2011, 2:50 PM
and the AG and DoJ had no clue what a Bullet Button would be either....LOL

Yep, that's why I'm asking for an example.

BTW, I find it interesting that almost everyone here now incorrectly refers to all mag locks as BBs and, no one seems to use the term "magazine lock" anymore. But, that's another rant for another time.

Cokebottle
05-30-2011, 2:55 PM
Are stripped and complete* lowers legally considered the same thing?


*One with a rifle stock.
The rifle must have BOTH a buttstock and a barrel at least 16" in length for it to be considered a "rifle" on the 4473 and be transferrable to someone under 21.

dieselpower
05-30-2011, 2:59 PM
Yep, that's why I'm asking for an example.

BTW, I find it interesting that almost everyone here now incorrectly refers to all mag locks as BBs and, no one seems to use the term "magazine lock" anymore. But, that's another rant for another time.

What I am implying is We can't know everything to come or what someone may invent tomorrow, so using the term "stock" isn't appropriate when its not a "stock" that makes it a rifle..its the fact its designed to be fired from the shoulder is the point of law.

heres an example... The Predator laser gun that sits on his shoulder and is fired via a blink of the eye, or press of a button on the wrist control. What type of firearm is it. What if I build it..what is it?

I agree, I use BB way too often, I need to say maglock.

Cokebottle
05-30-2011, 3:01 PM
Cokebottle,

Go back and find the post were I gave the OP an additional two ways for someone under 21 to legally aquire a commercially produced lower.
I caught that and while you posted was in the process of editing/deleting some posts.

Cokebottle
05-30-2011, 3:03 PM
Yep, that's why I'm asking for an example.

BTW, I find it interesting that almost everyone here now incorrectly refers to all mag locks as BBs and, no one seems to use the term "magazine lock" anymore. But, that's another rant for another time.
I think it's a more descriptive term... though I can see how it could perhaps lead to a challenge as to it's legality (regardless of the legality of it's function).

"Mag Lock", in my mind, is a throwback to the original P50 and similar designs that truly locked the magazine and required top loading.

CSACANNONEER
05-30-2011, 3:05 PM
What I am implying is We can't know everything to come or what someone may invent tomorrow, so using the term "stock" isn't appropriate when its not a "stock" that makes it a rifle..its the fact its designed to be fired from the shoulder is the point of law.

heres an example... The Predator laser gun that sits on his shoulder and is fired via a blink of the eye, or press of a button on the wrist control. What type of firearm is it. What if I build it..what is it?

I agree, I use BB way too often, I need to say maglock.

So, does "on", "on top of" or "over" the shoulder mean the same as "from the shoulder"? Would a RPG type device be considered a "rifle"? While I don't see this going anywhere, it is exactly how the whole "detachable" vs. "atachable" thing got started here and eventually lead to mag locks with a tool to release them.

lorax3
05-30-2011, 3:11 PM
That's not California law... that is Federal. An 18 year old in Arizona cannot legally purchase a stripped lower.

Just to mention the federal law you mention of selling non-rifles and non-shotguns to those under 21 only applies to licensed persons. That means in states that allow cash-and-carry transfers of handguns people 18-21 can purchase handguns from non-licensed persons.

To reiterate, in arizona someone 18-21 cannot purchase a stripped lower from a dealer, but they can purchase one from a private party. (Provided there is no seperate AZ law prohibiting it)


18 USC 922 (b)(1) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver—
(1) any firearm or ammunition to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than eighteen years of age, and, if the firearm, or ammunition is other than a shotgun or rifle, or ammunition for a shotgun or rifle, to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than twenty-one years of age

dieselpower
05-30-2011, 3:20 PM
So, does "on", "on top of" or "over" the shoulder mean the same as "from the shoulder"? Would a RPG type device be considered a "rifle"? While I don't see this going anywhere, it is exactly how the whole "detachable" vs. "attachable" thing got started here and eventually lead to mag locks with a tool to release them.

well sans all the other requirements of a rifle an RPG would fit the bill.

The intent is what the issue is. A receiver extension is NOT a stock, unless you intend to use it that way. which is why the law is written without the word stock.

this is why the BATFE is going after shotguns without stocks as AOWs...why, because they do not fit the description of a shotgun when they are not designed to be fired from the shoulder.

Cokebottle
05-30-2011, 3:34 PM
Just to mention the federal law you mention of selling non-rifles and non-shotguns to those under 21 only applies to licensed persons. That means in states that allow cash-and-carry transfers of handguns people 18-21 can purchase handguns from non-licensed persons.

To reiterate, in arizona someone 18-21 cannot purchase a stripped lower from a dealer, but they can purchase one from a private party. (Provided there is no seperate AZ law prohibiting it)
True enough.

My main point though, was this is not solely the fault of California.

If the BATFE were to butt out and let the state (or even better, the Constitution) handle things, an 18 y/o would still be able to buy a stripped lower in California.

ke6guj
05-30-2011, 3:41 PM
Yep, that's why I'm asking for an example.

BTW, I find it interesting that almost everyone here now incorrectly refers to all mag locks as BBs and, no one seems to use the term "magazine lock" anymore. But, that's another rant for another time.yup, I try to use the term "mag lock" when talking about magazine locks in general, and only use BB or Bullet Button when talking about Darin's products. He went to the trouble to be Bullet Button trademarked and hopefully it won't end up like Kleenex.

r6raff
05-30-2011, 5:10 PM
Yep, that's why I'm asking for an example.

BTW, I find it interesting that almost everyone here now incorrectly refers to all mag locks as BBs and, no one seems to use the term "magazine lock" anymore. But, that's another rant for another time.

BB now in days is like saying TiVo. Its just become a recognizable term that everyone understands. As long as the Maglock operates with a tool ie Bullet I will have no issue refering to it as a Bullet Button for the sake of simplicity. Now I wouldnt call a Prince50 a BB for instance, but really its just a nuance really and I wouldn't let it get to you...

r6raff
05-30-2011, 5:17 PM
The problem is, you cannot single shot a stripped lower.

You can build a pistol from an 80% lower (it must be single shot at completion, may then be converted to semi-auto), or you can single-shot the purchase of a completed AR/AK pistol.

You cannot single-shot a stripped lower because it is not dimensionally compliant... minimum barrel length 6", minimum OAL 10.5"
If it has no barrel, there's no way to single shot it.

Thats kinda what I recalled about pistols,, like I said in the quoted post, I don't really know anything about AR pistols, good to get clarification on what I think or thought I knew, thanks!

Questionably legal.

One shop was busted for doing this a few years ago.
Now the catch... they were an 01FFL. Their reading of the law was that as long as they did not do the machine work, they were GTG.
The BATFE's reading of the law was that they allowed manufacturing to take place on their premises, it didn't matter whether the person pushing the button was a paid employee or not.


I think the issue is the shop had an FFL so they may have a different set of rules and laws as far as manufacturing. I could see FFLs taking advantage, "Come buy an 80% lower from us and push the button, get a stripped lower today! Only $XXX more than XYZ Lower" Everyone I know who has gotten 80% made got them made at machine shops that did not hold any FFL.

Cokebottle
05-30-2011, 5:33 PM
I think the issue is the shop had an FFL so they may have a different set of rules and laws as far as manufacturing. I could see FFLs taking advantage, "Come buy an 80% lower from us and push the button, get a stripped lower today! Only $XXX more than XYZ Lower" Everyone I know who has gotten 80% made got them made at machine shops that did not hold any FFL.
Yes, this shop was an 01, but that fact is simply what put them on the BATFE's radar.

But the charge was that they were allowing manufacturing to take place on their premises without having the appropriate license.
Since the 01 is not an 07... and "Bob's Machine & Tool" is not an 07, the same thing could happen to any actual business that allows their equipment to be used to manufacture receivers.

Now Bob's Machine & Tool isn't going to be on the BATFE's radar... until Bob posts on Calguns that he is hosting a build party.
We've had a couple of AR 80% BPs over the last couple of years, and several times people have tried to arrange for actual CNC time, and so far, every time the business owner has backed out over these concerns.

r6raff
05-30-2011, 5:41 PM
Yes, this shop was an 01, but that fact is simply what put them on the BATFE's radar.

But the charge was that they were allowing manufacturing to take place on their premises without having the appropriate license.
Since the 01 is not an 07... and "Bob's Machine & Tool" is not an 07, the same thing could happen to any actual business that allows their equipment to be used to manufacture receivers.

Now Bob's Machine & Tool isn't going to be on the BATFE's radar... until Bob posts on Calguns that he is hosting a build party.
We've had a couple of AR 80% BPs over the last couple of years, and several times people have tried to arrange for actual CNC time, and so far, every time the business owner has backed out over these concerns.


That is very good to know, the way it was explained to me was that to the letter of the law, it was completely legal for a machine shop to do this. In fact I have read numerous threads suggesting, talking about doing this, and never heard this side of the story. It makes sense, it did seem like a little to easy to get an 80% done this way but I know of many folks doing this. Now if the shop is nailed by BATFE will the individual who was allowed to complete the 80% lower get in trouble for anything? By all accounts they still made the lower themselves. Just curious as this was something I want to do eventually and want to make sure I do it right. Thanks for the info!

arsilva32
05-30-2011, 5:46 PM
2 things CSACannoneer,
1) There have been SEVERAL guys on this website who posted they bought a stripped lower from a gun shop and are under 21.

2) The law says shouldered...doesnt say equipped with a stock. while I can not link or even know of something that fits that bill...that doesn't stop the law. You design a buffer tube with a rubber stop on the end and while its not a stock is designed to ease the recoil into the shoulder therefore its meets the legal 921 definition of a rifle...and if the barrel is shorter than 16"....



i saw a letter from the atf that stated it was ok to have a cane rubber tip on the end of the buffer or receiver extension.they stated in the letter it would not be considered a stock.i saw the letter over at AR-15.com or related site. im trying to find it now

its on page 2:

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/4001/batfeletterarpistols1.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/16/batfeletterarpistols1.jpg/) Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/2101/batfeletterarpistols2.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/163/batfeletterarpistols2.jpg/) Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

Cokebottle
05-30-2011, 6:23 PM
Now if the shop is nailed by BATFE will the individual who was allowed to complete the 80% lower get in trouble for anything?
Not likely. The BATFE would be primarily concerned about the manufacturing taking place at an unlicensed business.

Worst case, the BATFE could consider the completed lower to be property of the business, and then both the BATFE and DOJ could proceed as appropriate as they would if an 01 or 07 were to give a stripped lower to someone without completing a 4473, and in the case of the DOJ, 10 day wait and DROS.

Safest way to go would be if someone personally owns a small CNC rig... they've been around long enough that there may be some small units that have been on the surplus or repossessed market at an affordable price for someone fairly well off.

But seriously... it's a lower, it's not rocket science.
It's possible to do the job with a drill press and 3/8" endmill in 4-5 hours. It won't be pretty, but it will work.
A $500-$1000 shop mill can make easy work of it in a couple of hours with the proper jigs.
There really is no need for CNC other than just being lazy.

The dimensions are not THAT critical. If the pocket is too deep, what happens? You might get a bit more trigger overtravel than normal, but I think the selector will catch the rear of the trigger before it goes far enough to cause serious trigger slap.
If the rear of the pocket is cut too far, it won't hurt anything. If the rear shelf is cut too deep, again, no effect on function.
The most critical measurements is the width of the pocket... and if it's a couple of thou too wide, it's not a big deal.
Same for the front wall. Too much cut and it's a little thinner than spec, but as long as it's cut "enough" the hammer will still hit the pin.

The two most critical operations are not done with a CNC anyways... those are the hammer, trigger, and selector holes, and those have to be done with a drill press, preferably after the pocket has been milled.

Most 80% lowers already have the difficult work done... that being the bore and threading for the buffer tube, mag catch, BHO, and of course, the magwell itself.
I haven't seen a truly "blank" 80% lower in a long time.
At the present time, the BATFE only cares that the FCG pocket, hammer/trigger holes, and selector hole are not complete.
A year ago, the selector hole was fine... so it is a moving target.

r6raff
05-30-2011, 6:32 PM
^^^ Great info, thanks for taking the time to lay it out there. I should look into some info on using a drill press. I have never considered doing it manually. I am very mechanically adept, have been working in the trades most my adult life have owned my own electrical shop for 3 years now and love doing stuff like that. Is it possible to get a legitimately clean job done with a drill press? I am a stickler when it comes to finish work and I don;t want to start something that is impossible to get done "right" ... Right = Perfect to me lol.

Ill take this to the gunsmith forum, I think we've hijacked this thread long enough, Thanks again Cokebottle, solid info here.

Pred@tor
05-30-2011, 6:33 PM
I saw an 18 year old guy get denied because of the stripped lower. Its apparently a new thing.

ke6guj
05-30-2011, 6:36 PM
I saw an 18 year old guy get denied because of the stripped lower. Its apparently a new thing.

its been the law since 1968, but some FFLs weren't following it so ATF updated the 4473 to make it more clear more than 2.5 years ago.

Cokebottle
05-30-2011, 6:40 PM
Is it possible to get a legitimately clean job done with a drill press? I am a stickler when it comes to finish work and I don;t want to start something that is impossible to get done "right" ... Right = Perfect to me lol.
I rushed mine. Could have done better, but my purpose was to complete a pistol lower before ordering my 14.5" barrel. I will probably never complete a pistol, but if I do, I have a functional lower.
Ain't pretty on the inside, but it works.
The one screwup was the "divot" at the rear... it gets into the bore for the rear takedown detent pin.


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