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Swiss
05-29-2011, 9:37 AM
How much did LCAV and Brady pay to get this article published?

California gun-control laws cut flow to Mexico
Dan Freedman, Hearst Newspapers
Sunday, May 29, 2011
California's tough gun-control laws are targeted at armed criminals in general and mass-shooters in particular. But they appear to have had the unintended consequence of making California gun stores unattractive to purchasers buying weapons for the Mexican drug cartels.

A Hearst Newspapers survey of guns purchased in the United States and funneled to Mexican drug traffickers found that out of 1,600 guns identified by brand name and purchase point in court documents, a mere 70 came from California.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/05/29/MN6U1JM5GF.DTL&tsp=1

steelrain82
05-29-2011, 9:43 AM
I think it's more likely because the gun shops are located closer to the crime zone than California is. I mean who seriously wants to drive out of their way to buy a gun when you have x amount right down the street.

nick
05-29-2011, 9:54 AM
I think it's more likely because the gun shops are located closer to the crime zone than California is. I mean who seriously wants to drive out of their way to buy a gun when you have x amount right down the street.

You're assuming that the information presented as facts in the article is, in fact, correct.

nick
05-29-2011, 9:55 AM
How much did LCAV and Brady pay to get this article published?

I doubt they paid for it. There're plenty of useful idiots in the media.

Trojan Bayonet
05-29-2011, 9:58 AM
The "bovine scatology" and FUD in that article is very deep.

How many "assault rifles" and .50 caliber rifles are used in criminal activities? The article never mentions the percentage of crimes or number of incidents where they are involved.

Some anthropologist quoted in that article cites gun control legislation behind the decline in gun related crimes. He fails to consider the impact of California's "three strikes" laws keeping felons behind bars, which is a serious flaw in his study.

The most ludicrous supposition in the article is the infringement of a constitutional right in the name of controlling crime in another country. What if we exercised our *First* Amendment rights and it affected the economy of a foreign nation in another way? would that justify curtailing our First Amendment rights? I'm sure that the dwindling number of newspaper publishers would agree with that.

Jack L
05-29-2011, 11:01 AM
Even if not one firearm went south to Mexico, the cartels would buy from other sources. Money is no issue and there are plenty of places to buy them.

The USA legally sells many firearms to Mexico's military and LE. Those end up in bad guys hands in no time and more are ordered.

Wernher von Browning
05-29-2011, 12:47 PM
Even if not one firearm went south to Mexico, the cartels would buy from other sources. Money is no issue and there are plenty of places to buy them.

Here's another issue. They buy / steal guns in the USA because that's the cheapest, easiest, fastest source. If the USA tap were 100% turned off, they would go to another source.

The USA has "outsourced" much of its manufacturing to the "maquiladores" belt along the border. Tijuana, Tecate, Mexicali, that whole bunch. A machine tool dealer friend tells me that most serviceable but obsolescent CNC machine tools wind up going south to small job shops.

Quality forged, unmachined blanks for AR-15 lowers are cheap; local shops could sand-cast even cheaper ones out of remelted scrap aluminum at almost zero cost. The recipes for turning a forged or cast lower blank into a functional lower receiver are free and readily available. The remaining parts are uncontrolled. If it came right down to it, the cartels could set up their own factories. They don't, because it's too much effort -- for now. These gangs have no problem building submarines (http://www.google.com/#hl=en&sugexp=ldymls&xhr=t&q=drug+cartel+submarine&cp=13&pf=p&sclient=psy&biw=1280&bih=810&source=hp&aq=0&aqi=&aql=&oq=drug+cartel+s&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=a34f7f1872f21971) fercryinoutloud, to say nothing of digging mile-long tunnels or using disposable airplanes.

The logical conclusion is that all of these "controls" do no more than inconvenience the cartels. Ordinary citizens in the USA pay the price -- the cartels just pay whatever it costs.

CalBear
05-29-2011, 12:51 PM
Here's another issue. They buy / steal guns in the USA because that's the cheapest, easiest, fastest source. If the USA tap were 100% turned off, they would go to another source.

The USA has "outsourced" much of its manufacturing to the "maquiladores" belt along the border. Tijuana, Tecate, Mexicali, that whole bunch. A machine tool dealer friend tells me that most serviceable but obsolescent CNC machine tools wind up going south to small job shops.

Quality forged, unmachined blanks for AR-15 lowers are cheap; local shops could sand-cast even cheaper ones out of remelted scrap aluminum at almost zero cost. The recipes for turning a forged or cast lower blank into a functional lower receiver are free and readily available. The remaining parts are uncontrolled. If it came right down to it, the cartels could set up their own factories. They don't, because it's too much effort -- for now. These gangs have no problem building submarines (http://www.google.com/#hl=en&sugexp=ldymls&xhr=t&q=drug+cartel+submarine&cp=13&pf=p&sclient=psy&biw=1280&bih=810&source=hp&aq=0&aqi=&aql=&oq=drug+cartel+s&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=a34f7f1872f21971) fercryinoutloud, to say nothing of digging mile-long tunnels or using disposable airplanes.

The logical conclusion is that all of these "controls" do no more than inconvenience the cartels. Ordinary citizens in the USA pay the price -- the cartels just pay whatever it costs.
That's my basic POV. Even if they do buy some weapons in the US, it would be a very MINOR inconvenience if it were harder to buy weapons here. Why punish US citizens when literally nothing will change in terms of cartel gun access.

2Bear
05-29-2011, 1:05 PM
What a bunch of hooey. Perhaps California having the smallest and best-protected border has something to do with it?

http://media.stratfor.com/files/mmf/e/0/e0bfe1b7321eea34045f17ac73feb84593116b85.jpg
This means that almost 90 percent of the guns seized in Mexico in 2008 were not traced back to the United States.

http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/20110209-mexicos-gun-supply-and-90-percent-myth

Super Spy
05-29-2011, 1:07 PM
We know the Brady's and LCAV are a bunch of liers....this is just more of their BS.

Wernher von Browning
05-29-2011, 1:09 PM
Why punish US citizens when literally nothing will change in terms of cartel gun access.

Lots of reasons.


To maintain control.
To relinquish control to Momma State.
Because it's good for you.
Because it seems like a good idea and you should be happy to try this experiment
Because the people who want to do this are nobler and have purer motives than you. Just ask them.



It's not unrelated to "Why should US citizens be punished for flying on airliners?" or "Why do you have to give up your rights to get on an airplane?"


It's good theater
It makes the citizens feel good -- "something seen to be done"
It eliminates the need to actually single out the people most likely to be a real problem
It employs the otherwise unemployable
It generates income for well-connected people (http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&source=hp&q=chertoff+airport+scanner+conflict+of+interest&aq=0b&aqi=g-b1&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=a34f7f1872f21971&biw=1280&bih=810) who make expensive, mysterious boxes of questionable safety

oni.dori
05-29-2011, 3:55 PM
Hahahaha the fantasy world that they create for themselves just gets bigger and bigger every day, doesn't it?

GOEX FFF
05-29-2011, 3:59 PM
Sorry to stray a little bit OT. But bRaDy's and LCAV are in total denial of ATF gunwalker. They won't even talk about it. So they continue to intentionally ignore the fact and post drivel to keep the anti-right sheeple's minds away from it. We all know how much ATF is mainly responsible for gun trafficking to Mexico.

oni.dori
05-29-2011, 4:21 PM
Of course they don't'; because if they did, they wouldn't be able to use that "90% of crime guns in Mexico were bought from gun stores in the US" horse sh*t they spew.

cdtx2001
05-29-2011, 4:39 PM
Figures lie and liars figure

HowardW56
05-29-2011, 4:43 PM
Bull****!

Cuerno_de_Chivo
05-29-2011, 4:48 PM
If i was in a cartel i would rather pay 100 dollars for a fully auto AK down in guatemala or el salvador than get a 500 dollar semi auto AK with a mag lock in california.

fred40
05-29-2011, 5:23 PM
It's illegal to own guns in Mexico. Proof that gun control does not work. The Brady's pretty much contradicted themselves, and another note, why dont they protest south of the border if they are so interested on what goes on in Mexico?

CalNRA
05-29-2011, 5:33 PM
The important thing to remember is, even if what the claims say are somewhat true(which is doubtful), it comes at a cost of freedom to American citizens. Restricting your own citizens' rights to reduce a miniscule number of guns flowing to a cartel-run hellhole is akin to chain down everyone's grandmother to a large rock because it might prevent one auto collision.

wash
05-29-2011, 6:07 PM
Sorry to stray a little bit OT. But bRaDy's and LCAV are in total denial of ATF gunwalker. They won't even talk about it. So they continue to intentionally ignore the fact and post drivel to keep the anti-right sheeple's minds away from it. We all know how much ATF is mainly responsible for gun trafficking to Mexico.
It's even funnier than that, their solution (from Brady bunch emails) is to require reporting of multiple gun sales to the ATF.

How will that help if ATF is the one "walking" them over there?

Of course they rely on the fact that most people don't actually research and confirm facts and that the main stream media will attempt to bury the story.

Norsemen308
05-29-2011, 6:47 PM
God damn, had to put my waders on before reading this one.... talk about the most made up, forced facts to make a story article I have ever scene... I seriously would love to make these journalists cite sources...

Jack L
05-29-2011, 7:11 PM
It's illegal to own guns in Mexico. Proof that gun control does not work. The Brady's pretty much contradicted themselves, and another note, why dont they protest south of the border if they are so interested on what goes on in Mexico?


I assume The Brady Bunch would be hanging upside down from a bridge if they tried their BS south of the border. The cartels and other gangsters would dispatch them in no time.

2Bear
05-29-2011, 7:30 PM
I seriously would love to make these journalists cite sources...

The SF Gate has a comments section right after the article. Kinda' amusing...

Dreaded Claymore
05-29-2011, 7:57 PM
Even if not one firearm went south to Mexico, the cartels would buy from other sources. Money is no issue and there are plenty of places to buy them.

Here's another issue. They buy / steal guns in the USA because that's the cheapest, easiest, fastest source. If the USA tap were 100% turned off, they would go to another source.

You fellows are speaking in the subjunctive mode, as if these things weren't already the case.

Most of the cartel's guns come from South America and across the ocean. They do not mostly come from the U.S.

Remember all the full-auto M16s and M2s you read about in the news? You can't get those in an Arizona gun shop!

Lies, Damned Lies, and Mexican Guns (http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/04/05/lies-damned-lies-and-mexican-guns/)

jdberger
05-29-2011, 11:22 PM
The Houston Chronicl (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/topstory/7586144.html)e also published an article based upon the Hearst Newspaper "study".

It repeats some of the greatest hits from the Antis.


Straw purchasers have "flooded the US" since the end of the AW ban.
90 percent of the guns submitted for tracing by Mexican authorities are from the United States.
The FN Five-seveN is known as the "mata policia" because the round is AP.
Cartels are using AKs from Century Arms.

The article actually reads exactly like the articles from a couple of years ago which parrotted a Violence Policy Report (which also turned out to be completely bogus). Of course, at that time, we didn't know that ATF was responsible for most of the trafficking of guns into Mexico, that most of the guns were coming from Guatamala and other Latin American countries who fought civil wars over the last couple of decades.

G60
05-30-2011, 12:08 AM
"It's illegal to own guns in Mexico."

I'm going to be as polite as possible. Please, check your facts.

oni.dori
05-30-2011, 12:33 AM
Better stated, it is illegal to own all the types of guns confiscated from the cartels; because nothing over a .38 cal is legal for civilians, not even 9mm Luger.

Mendo223
05-30-2011, 1:17 AM
guys we all need to take a few minutes of our time and respond to the comment sections......


overall there is a sentiment amongst the comment section that this article is BS, which it is...

im severely dissapointed in sfgate (but not surprised) for publishing such one sided BS.


is there some kind of litigation calguns could take against them for posting biased articles with no citations, etc?

freedom of speech is one thing...propaganda and outright lies is another.

wildhawker
05-30-2011, 1:34 AM
It's nice to live in a world where these sorts of articles can be so easily dismissed as crap.

-Brandon

GOEX FFF
05-30-2011, 1:57 AM
It's even funnier than that, their solution (from Brady bunch emails) is to require reporting of multiple gun sales to the ATF.

How will that help if ATF is the one "walking" them over there?

Of course they rely on the fact that most people don't actually research and confirm facts and that the main stream media will attempt to bury the story.

Yep, so much so that after the whistle was blown by the "Good" ATF agents, all the lib MSM ceased reporting about that 90%. Humm i wonder why... :rolleyes: It seems they're trying to bury it so much that they're trying to talk about the 90% again like nothing happened, as such the SFG is doing. It will only bite them in a** in the end when the can of Grassley/Issa whoop a** continues to come down on AG Holder and his corrupt cronies responsible for this.

Some proof of that also, is I know some antigun libs who are quite up-to-date on news. When I mentioned the ATF scandal that has taken place, they were completely in the dark and "heard nothing about it". :eek:

Ford8N
05-30-2011, 6:20 AM
We know the Brady's and LCAV are a bunch of liers....this is just more of their BS.

True...but the average sheep in California soak up the BS like a dry sponge.

Wernher von Browning
05-30-2011, 7:09 AM
You fellows are speaking in the subjunctive mode, as if these things weren't already the case.

Most of the cartel's guns come from South America and across the ocean. They do not mostly come from the U.S.

Remember all the full-auto M16s and M2s you read about in the news? You can't get those in an Arizona gun shop!

Lies, Damned Lies, and Mexican Guns (http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/04/05/lies-damned-lies-and-mexican-guns/)


You're right. Sorry. I think it's pretty clear that most of the guns are not coming from the USA. The way I worded it, I made it sound like they were...

r3dn3ck
05-30-2011, 7:28 AM
great so we've returned to the golden age of hearst publishing. Awesome. Stops reading news.

Jack L
05-30-2011, 8:57 AM
"It's illegal to own guns in Mexico."

I'm going to be as polite as possible. Please, check your facts.

I lived in Mexico, built a house there. 98% of the population, from what I witnessed, I'm speaking of average citizens and those that live in the small pueblos do not own firearms. Farmers, some hunters have them but a every day citizen does not. None of the sporting good stores sells them. One gun shop in Mexico.

If you want a firearm, they are available in any large city for $$ from bad guys. Any type you want. There are layers of military and LE agencies that carry ( and sell heir weapons).

As a general rule, you'll find most Mexican nationals think they are not supposed to own a firearm and act like it's really a big deal to have one stashed. I found that the wealthy families had a few and the LE turned a blind eye knowing they had them. In fact, a little $ goes a long way regarding what goes down south of the US border.

That's all I can report from the field. I am not expert. This is what I witnessed during my time down there.

jdberger
05-30-2011, 10:25 AM
Perhaps a few letters to the editor are in order re the Gunwalker scandal.

HUTCH 7.62
05-30-2011, 10:30 AM
No mention of Operation Gunrunner!? I guarantee the numbers are fudged up on that alone.

derwiking
05-30-2011, 5:44 PM
How much did LCAV and Brady pay to get this article published?

Nothing! Come on people, let us do some simple critical thinking.

California gun-control laws cut flow to Mexico
Dan Freedman, Hearst Newspapers
Sunday, May 29, 2011
California's tough gun-control laws are targeted at armed criminals in general and mass-shooters in particular. But they appear to have had the unintended consequence of making California gun stores unattractive to purchasers buying weapons for the Mexican drug cartels.

A Hearst Newspapers survey of guns purchased in the United States and funneled to Mexican drug traffickers found that out of 1,600 guns identified by brand name and purchase point in court documents, a mere 70 came from California.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...M5GF.DTL&tsp=1

Hearst? Any journalism (if you could call it that) that comes from that propaganda mill is undoubtedly anti-liberty and pro-prohibition of ANY right/property. We shouldn't be surprised. All I'm sayin'.