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H2O MAN
05-29-2011, 8:49 AM
This is for those of you wondering just how accurate the M14 EBR platform is.

Originally Posted by Different:


Short answer: sub-MOA

Long answer:

From M14 Rifle History and Development Fifth Edition by Lee Emerson copyright 2011,

"M14 EBR-RI - In 2008, the U. S. Army Tank Automotive Command (TACOM) began a project to modernize the M14 in support of U. S. Army units in Iraq. This work was performed by the Weapons Product Support Integration Directorate of the TACOM Life Cycle Management Command at Rock Island, IL. The M14 EBR-RI Program Manager was Doug Carlstrom from inception through at least June 2010. The first 400 M14 Enhanced Battle Rifle - Rock Island (M14 EBR-RI) rifles had been completed by June 2008. Another 2,200 units had been completed by March 2009. On May 05, 2010, TACOM completed its five thousandth M14 EBR-RI rifle. Another thirty units were completed that month to fulfill all requests submitted by combat unit commanders to date. The conversion of a M14 to a M14 EBR-RI included replacing the M14 stock with a Sage International late second generation M14 EBR stock, reaming the flash suppressor, replacing the cartridge clip guide with a detachable cantilevered sight base (Sage part number M14DCSB), shimming the gas cylinder, and adding a vertical grip (Sage part number 4249), a Harris bipod and a Leupold & Stevens, Inc. variable 3.5-10X day scope with medium height rings. The M14 EBR-RI rifle was shipped to the combat unit with six magazines, a vertical fore grip, a sling, an Otis Products, Inc. cleaning kit, a combination tool and operator manual. By mid-2009, some minor changes were made on new rifles: 1) a crush washer replaced the stainless steel shims 2) a redesigned operating rod guide to make use of the hand guard screws and 3) an improved detachable cantilevered sight base. The acceptance criteria was a maximum of 1.5 MOA with the result averaging 0.89 MOA for the first 5,000 built. The five TACOM rifle builders observed that TRW and Winchester barreled actions typically delivered the best accuracy. Only one rifle in the first 5,000 units was rejected for not meeting the accuracy requirement."

What's truly amazing about the M14EBR-RI is that all of the barrels are standard weight 22.0" chrome lined USGI tubes.

http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/184241_193100514046643_108939879129374_573735_7013 35_n.jpg

Just imagine the accuracy that could be extracted from tubes the big name precision M1A &
M14 barrel makers are offering when these barreled actions are bolted into SAGE EBR stocks.





.

sleepur606
05-29-2011, 8:53 AM
That's pretty good accuracy considering the M110 is held to 2.2MOA at 100 yards (for 10 round groups).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M110_Semi-Automatic_Sniper_System

That sort of reinvigorates my interest in the M1A/M14/M21 style platform.

Hoop
05-29-2011, 9:07 AM
This is for those of you wondering just how accurate the M14 EBR platform is.


So how accurate are yours?

norcal-ar
05-29-2011, 9:36 AM
That's pretty good accuracy considering the M110 is held to 2.2MOA at 100 yards (for 10 round groups).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M110_Semi-Automatic_Sniper_System

That sort of reinvigorates my interest in the M1A/M14/M21 style platform.



+1:iagree:

Omega13device
05-29-2011, 9:49 AM
It's all well and good but it takes a lot of work and money to get an M14 to that point.

It's a wonderful rifle but it's an outdated platform for what we need to do. At the time the GWOT started there was simply nothing else available in a .308 SASS. Today there are better solutions.

Wnick308
05-29-2011, 10:08 AM
Makes me want to hurry up looking around and get one.

Hoop
05-29-2011, 10:19 AM
Makes me want to hurry up looking around and get one.

You'll need a mag lock if using it in Cali, also the stocks aren't cheap. I do see them in the sale ads here though, seems they go for about 2k. Would be a neat toy to have.

Lethal_addict
05-29-2011, 10:30 AM
The two companies that are worth researching these platforms are generally Smith Enterprise and LRB... However there are several companies outside of Springfield that offer very relaible receiver platforms. The 18 inv barrels have been very successful, the 16 socoms don't tend to have the desired accuracy for a build this expensive. However I understand Smith Enterprise is in the process of building a 17 in 1/10 twist...

Thats Exciting!

CSACANNONEER
05-29-2011, 10:50 AM
What does shooting precision groups have to do with accuracy? The short answer is: NOTHING. Shooting groups and measuring them in moa or any other meathod has ZERO to do with "accuracy". Accuracy is ONLY about centering your POIs around your POA.

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p43/csacannoneer/accuracy_vs_precision_556.jpg

H2O MAN
05-29-2011, 1:34 PM
The 18 inv barrels have been very successful, the 16 socoms don't tend to have the desired accuracy for a build this expensive.
However I understand Smith Enterprise is in the process of building a 17 in 1/10 twist...

Thats Exciting!

Hello Lethal!

Smith Enterprise has a new 16.25" 4 groove 1/10 twist barrel, mine is good for 1 - 1.5 MOA.

Here is the new CQB 16 pictured above my old 18.0" Crazy Horse Mod 0

http://i895.photobucket.com/albums/ac160/The_H2O_MAN/MK14EBR-RI/CQB 16/IMG_4643.jpg

Dhena81
05-29-2011, 2:18 PM
I've never seen a person that loves the M1A quite like you H20 you had a part in getting Randall banned because of it. 2.2 MOA maximum is great precision from a 10 shot group from a semi I wonder what the .98 MOA shot group was 3, 5, or 10 this makes a huge difference.

H2O MAN
05-30-2011, 4:14 AM
I've never seen a person that loves the M1A quite like you H20...

Dhena, I have no love for the M1A. I owned one years ago, it was a problematic POS that I parted out.

I'm not saying all Springfield Armory, Inc. M1As are bad... most are quite good, but mine was not.



You will need to contact Lee Emerson or TACOM-RI about how many rounds were fired to get a .89" average group with 5000 EBRs.
I have read about some old all Winchester M14 used to build TACOM M14EBR-RI rifles shooting as tight as .44" ... all they did was put the action in a SAGE EBR stock.




.

Different
05-30-2011, 5:55 AM
I've never seen a person that loves the M1A quite like you H20 you had a part in getting Randall banned because of it. 2.2 MOA maximum is great precision from a 10 shot group from a semi I wonder what the .98 MOA shot group was 3, 5, or 10 this makes a huge difference.

TACOM-RIA shoots three round groups from a bench on a 100 yard indoor range with M118LR ammunition. The M14EBR-RI rifles are shot using Leupold Mark IV scopes. The Sage stocks on these rifles have a barrel tensioning screw. The M14EBR-RI has a USGI standard profile chromium plated barrel of which the majority were manufactured by TRW or the U. S. government Springfield Armory. The TRW and Winchester receivers and Winchester barrels tend to produce smaller groups.

Some of the Sage International stocks in use by the U. S. military do not have a barrel tensioning screw, e..g, U. S. Marine Corps M39 EMR rifles.

NSWC Crane tested a rack grade M14 dressed in a Sage International M14 EBR stock at 600 yards with M118 ammunition. The rifle shot 2 to 2.5 MOA five shot groups at 600 yards. That particular stock may or may not have had the barrel tensioning screw. According to Mike Petersen, TACOM-RIA, the barrel tensioning screw does significantly shrink the group size.

References

Luppino, Art. Center X M1A/M14 Maintenance & Cleaning for Improved Accuracy. Lenny Magill Productions: San Diego, CA, 1992. Approximately 120 minutes: VHS and DVD.

Petersen, Mike. Internet discussion thread on Guns & Ammo Combat Arms 2011. April 16, 2011.

Plaster, John L. "New Life For An Old Warhorse." American Rifleman March 2011: 64-65, 84-87.

Poole, Eric. R. "Inside Rock Island." Guns & Ammo Combat Arms 2011: 16-21.

Stonecipher, Kent. "M14 Enhanced Battle Rifle - Rock Island (M14EBR-RI)." Oklahoma City Firearms Examiner: June 25, 2010. www.examiner.com

Stonecipher, Kent. "The M14 Enhanced Battle Rifle at Rock Island Arsenal." Oklahoma City Firearms Examiner: July 30, 2010. www.examiner.com

rojocorsa
05-30-2011, 12:04 PM
Wouldn't an equally pimped-out AR-10 beat it, just because of the design's potential mechanical accuracy?

brando
05-30-2011, 2:00 PM
The M1A meme is a common one here - lots of emotional investment.

H2O MAN
05-30-2011, 2:40 PM
The AR10 meme is a common one here - lots of emotional investment.

Cyc Wid It
05-30-2011, 3:03 PM
This is starting to turn into a rerun of lightfighter or whatever other forums. We get it, you really really like your custom built M1A's and you have a lot of them.

Hoop
05-30-2011, 3:06 PM
The AR10 meme is a common one here - lots of emotional investment.

So are you going to post some range reports and handload info for that rifle you posted a pic of or what? Some of use like to shoot guns, not just brag about them on the net ;)

Hoop
05-30-2011, 3:07 PM
We get it, you really really like your custom built M1A's and you have a lot of them.

I'm not sure he has a lot of them, I think he got teased/challenged into going to the snipers hide shootout or whatever they call it & he declined because he didn't have a rifle to use.

H2O MAN
05-30-2011, 3:11 PM
This is about the accuracy of the M14EBR-RI and other military M14s that utilize the SAGE EBR stock.
It's also about the potential accuracy civilians can expect from off the shelf and custom built M14 type rifles when the SAGE EBR is used.



It's obvious to me that you and others don't get it because you want to make this about me and my rifles... that's your problem.





.

Hoop
05-30-2011, 3:45 PM
This is about the accuracy of the M14EBR-RI and other military M14s that utilize the SAGE EBR stock.
It's also about the potential accuracy civilians can expect from off the shelf and custom built M14 type rifles when the SAGE EBR is used.


So you don't own one then?

brando
05-30-2011, 5:33 PM
The AR10 meme is a common one here - lots of emotional investment.

Well, that was...predictable.

only10x
05-30-2011, 5:46 PM
really? why is it that rifle manufactures go thru the trouble of including a 5 or 10 shot group that was shot at X distance if it didnt mean anything?



What does shooting precision groups have to do with accuracy? The short answer is: NOTHING. Shooting groups and measuring them in moa or any other meathod has ZERO to do with "accuracy". Accuracy is ONLY about centering your POIs around your POA.

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p43/csacannoneer/accuracy_vs_precision_556.jpg

H2O MAN
05-30-2011, 5:48 PM
The good people at CRANE have been working on a heavy barreled precision M14 over the past few months.
I'm told they will be converting existing supplies of the U. S. Navy M14 SSR (Sniper Security Rifle).


This rifle will be known as the MK14 Mod 2 and it will ride in a special SAGE M14ALCS/PMRI EBR stock.
A limited supply of these heavy barrel EBR stocks are available to civilians, contact SAGE for details.

http://i895.photobucket.com/albums/ac160/The_H2O_MAN/MK14EBR-RI/Mod2-CRANE.jpg


This EBR is not to be confused with the TACOM M14EBR-RI.

Turo
05-30-2011, 5:52 PM
really? why is it that rifle manufactures go thru the trouble of including a 5 or 10 shot group that was shot at X distance if it didnt mean anything?

CSA didn't say it didn't mean anything. He was correcting the grammar of the OP and everyone else in this thread.

Saying you can do 1MOA groups has absolutely nothing to do with accuracy, it has to do with precision. Precision is the repeatability of a certain shot (how close each one is to the others) whereas "accuracy" is the ability of the rifle/shooter to hit what he/she is aiming at.

jtv3062
05-30-2011, 5:57 PM
Does Lee have a new print out?

Different
05-30-2011, 6:19 PM
Does Lee have a new print out?

I have several complimentary research documents and files. Which one were you thinking of?

jtv3062
05-30-2011, 6:40 PM
Lee, I have 1st and 2nd prints, do you have any others. I don't hang out on m14 forums much anymore so I'm out of the loop.

bomb_on_bus
05-30-2011, 9:39 PM
Question is can that platform keep the same sob MOA accuracy at 100 yards all the way out to say 800?

Whats the point if you have a gun that can print sub MOA at 100 but cant do minute of barn at distance?

Turo
05-31-2011, 3:38 AM
Question is can that platform keep the same sob MOA accuracy at 100 yards all the way out to say 800?

Whats the point if you have a gun that can print sub MOA at 100 but cant do minute of barn at distance?

The only way that happens is if you have a cartridge that won't reach out that far.

You do realize that MOA means minute of angle right? An MOA is a measurement of angular distance (1/60 degrees), one MOA is the same measurement regardless of if the effect is seen at 100 yards or 1000 yards. It's still one sixtieth of one degree.

Omega13device
05-31-2011, 8:45 PM
I just don't see the point of investing so much effort to put an old platform on par with a modern one.

SubSonicSOPMOD
05-31-2011, 9:01 PM
Don't feel bad, not everyone can swing it.

Pryde
05-31-2011, 9:30 PM
I just don't see the point of investing so much effort to put an old platform on par with a modern one.

Internet M14 nerd-love.
Kind of like for the 1911 except the 1911 is actually a decent ergonomic pistol, has something that modern guns don't (extremely fast) and modern upgrades don't make it weight 2x as much.

H2O MAN
06-01-2011, 4:31 AM
Internet M14 nerd-love.
Kind of like for the 1911 BLAH, BLAH, BLAH

You are talking about the U. S. Army Tank Automotive Command (TACOM).

H2O MAN
06-01-2011, 5:14 AM
I just don't see the point of investing so much effort to put an old platform on par with a modern one.

The 'effort' is small - just look how many they have built- and the M14s used for the conversion were paid for long ago. Also, the M14EBR-RI weighs a little less than an M110 set up with the same accessories.

The best part about the M14EBR-RI is that it works, it's accurate, reliable and their are tens of thousands of old M14s sitting in storage ready to convert right away.

23 Blast
06-01-2011, 5:42 AM
I just don't see the point of investing so much effort to put an old platform on par with a modern one.

This. I have an M1A, and I love how it handles and shoots, so I'm definitely not of the AR-15 fanboi/M1A H8R club, quite the opposite. But for a DMR, why wouldn't the military just go with an AR-10 platform so that there's some crossover in training and familiarity, kind of like how the Warsaw Pact did it with their AK and Dragunov systems?

H2O MAN
06-01-2011, 6:01 AM
why wouldn't the military just go with an AR-10 platform so that there's some crossover in training and familiarity

They have tried this and continue trying it, but they are experiencing issues with reliability, accuracy and supply.

The M14EBR-RI is reliable, accurate and there are plenty of them.

23 Blast
06-01-2011, 6:18 AM
^Wasnt Stoner's initial creation chambered in .308? What's the main problem? Improper lube?

As far as accuracy - i'm no expert, but I would imagine that a free-floated barrel offers more precision potential than the same barrel mated to a stock.

Supply? Heck, I'd imagine that for the cost of one F-22, or a handful of Apache choppers, the US military could supply the Army, Marines, Coast Guard, National Guard, FBI, and assorted shady allies with dictatorial governments with all the EBRs they could ever want.

rattlesnake_nm
06-01-2011, 8:47 AM
This is about the accuracy of the M14EBR-RI and other military M14s that utilize the SAGE EBR stock.
It's also about the potential accuracy civilians can expect from off the shelf and custom built M14 type rifles when the SAGE EBR is used.



It's obvious to me that you and others don't get it because you want to make this about me and my rifles... that's your problem.





.

I enjoy Your write ups. I have not been back to snipers hide after the uncalled for dogpile. I told them to **** off, and never looked back.

thai562
06-01-2011, 3:49 PM
I know I will piss off a few AR fans for this, but I agree with H2OMAN
but they are experiencing issues with reliability
The AR platform always have this problem from the start. The only fix is to convert it to a gas piston action like the POF system, but that eliminated the AR free floating barrel which made AR so accurate.
You have to admit, there must be a reason why the military still use the M14 platform as a sniper weapon.
I love my EBR, and with this news, I will spend the rest of my life chasing the sub-MOA result.

23 Blast
06-01-2011, 5:30 PM
^Actually, they don't use the M14 as a sniper weapon. The DMR concept is something relatively new to the US military. The "real" snipers use bolt actions.

M14's were broken out of storage because they needed a semi-auto .308 and they were already in the inventory.

Curious what would have happened if say, the military had to come up with a DMR from scratch (like let's say, the M14 never got adopted and heavy-caliber semi autos were last used in Korea in the form of the Garand)

Cyc Wid It
06-01-2011, 6:18 PM
The M110 is replacing the M24 already... soon there will be fewer EBRs and bolt guns.

CSACANNONEER
06-01-2011, 6:39 PM
^Actually, they don't use the M14 as a sniper weapon. The DMR concept is something relatively new to the US military. The "real" snipers use bolt actions.


Wow, I guess all the stories about real US military snipers using semi autos are either made up or, they never got your memo. I'm willing to bet that many of today's US snipers are using SAs ranging from .22cal to .50cal. As far as the m14 platform goes, IIRC, some guy named Carlos Hathcock always had one on hand. In at least one famous incident, it was his weapon of choice. Every mission is different and calls for different tools. Oh, I get it, in your eyes Carlos Hathcock wasn't a sniper, right?

m98
06-01-2011, 6:47 PM
I'd tell you that I'd take an M1a/m14 over ANY ak variant there is in the world. The only drawback is the cost of the rifle, but if I was the U.S. govt' that has no budget limit, M14's all the way with the best optics and ammo supplies

brando
06-01-2011, 6:52 PM
The M110 is replacing the M24 already... soon there will be fewer EBRs and bolt guns.

You're confusing the M110 with the XM2010.

GM4spd
06-01-2011, 6:56 PM
I just don't see the point of investing so much effort to put an old platform on par with a modern one.

This. Pete

caoboy
06-01-2011, 7:06 PM
Mine is pretty accurate. Or precise. I get a lot of head shots in MGO. It's my favorite 'sniper rifle' (or not, according to one poster) In that game. The ultimate SR is a bolt action DSR though...it must be the giant 70mm scope they put on the gun that makes it so accurate, or precise, or whatever. If I hit you in the stomach, you are dead in one shot.



(Yes, pure satisfaction was gained in posting this in a serious M14 lover's thread)

Hoop
06-01-2011, 7:25 PM
It's obvious to me that you and others don't get it because you want to make this about me and my rifles... that's your problem.


I wasn't trying to be an *** to you, I just want to see some range reports that's all.

I'll just piss off and let you have your M14EBR laughorama thread.

Hoop
06-01-2011, 7:26 PM
Mine is pretty accurate. Or precise. I get a lot of head shots in MGO.

The one I have in Fallout New Vegas works wonders on super mutants...

thai562
06-01-2011, 8:20 PM
Originally Posted by Omega13device View Post
I just don't see the point of investing so much effort to put an old platform on par with a modern one.
In the world of Firearms, great designed stood the test of time. Example: Rem 700, 1911, Sig pistols, M1 to M14, Browning 50 cal machine gun, and few other.

You have to admit. A 1960s rifle can still do the job in today battle field, is pretty cool.

brando
06-01-2011, 9:35 PM
You have to admit. A 1960s rifle can still do the job in today battle field, is pretty cool.

Still, just because some Taliban shooters have been effective with .303 Enfields doesn't mean they're a good choice.

H2O MAN
06-02-2011, 6:26 AM
In the world of Firearms, great designed stood the test of time. Example: Rem 700, 1911, Sig pistols, M1 to M14, Browning 50 cal machine gun, and few other.

You have to admit. A 1960s rifle can still do the job in today battle field, is pretty cool.


This /\

23 Blast
06-02-2011, 8:47 AM
Wow, I guess all the stories about real US military snipers using semi autos are either made up or, they never got your memo. I'm willing to bet that many of today's US snipers are using SAs ranging from .22cal to .50cal. As far as the m14 platform goes, IIRC, some guy named Carlos Hathcock always had one on hand. In at least one famous incident, it was his weapon of choice. Every mission is different and calls for different tools. Oh, I get it, in your eyes Carlos Hathcock wasn't a sniper, right?

Yup. It's all propaganda. Sheesh.

Yes, US military snipers have used semis from the scoped Garands to the night scoped M1 Carbines to the M21 system to Barrett 50-cals. In addition to his M14, Hathcock also used a scoped M2 machine gun at one time (triggering off one round at a time). I'm sure he'd have used a Barrett had they been available at the time.

My point was that for quite some time now, the US sniper's "default" weapon has been, more often than not, a scoped bolt-action rifle, until recently it was commonly in .308 caliber. Just like a US infantryman's "default" weapon for th last 40+ years has been an M16/M4, despite the fact that they also employ myriad other firearms depending on their mission, from handguns to shotguns to machine guns and grenade launchers.

The DMR concept is relatively new because US doctrine for a long time was that EVERY man was a marksman, unlike Warsaw Pact doctrine where close-in, high volume was the doctrine.

Are you this ornery in your real life?

Bhobbs
06-02-2011, 9:47 AM
Still, just because some Taliban shooters have been effective with .303 Enfields doesn't mean they're a good choice.

It's the best choice they have but not for us.


Haven't the M110 rifles been having issues with jams anyways?

Omega13device
06-02-2011, 11:49 PM
The firsthand complaints I have read about the M14s in Iraq and Afghanistan have been along the lines of:

- Totally different rifle/manual of arms that they never trained on until they were deployed, and they only got a few days of training once deployed
- Poor ergonomics (location of safety, mag changes)
- Rifle stands out from the rest of the squad
- Spare parts logistics problems
- Armorers lack familiarity with the platform

Note that none of those issues have anything to do with precision. Shooting tiny groups is nice but it's only a small part of what it takes to fight effectively with a gun.

brando
06-03-2011, 2:08 PM
The only reason they were put in the fight was to fill a gap that desperately needed to be filled. SR-25s were the only .308WIN semi-autos being fielded in the Army (just USASOC) in late 2001, and that was still very limited numbers. Once both wars were in high gear, the demand for conventional squads to have a semi-auto .308 went through the roof. Busting open the stock of old M14s was the logical solution to rapidly filling that gap. The SR-25s had reliability issues and as much as Knight would like to think they could have rapidly fielded SR-25s Army wide, at the time it wasn't going to happen. And that's unfortunate because the similarities between the M16/M4 and SR-25 would have made the transition fairly easy.

So instead you saw M14s pulled out of packing grease and given to units MOBing. In short order it was determined that the gear soldiers were wearing in 2002 was nothing like what they wore in 1965, so the collapsing stocks and other modifications went out with the next batch. Again, it was all about rapidly filling a vital gap.

As the wars grinded on it was obvious this stop gap solution needed to be filled with a properly fielded weapon and based on needs from downrange, the M110 project started (albeit a bit late).

And that's where things are now. It wasn't that the M14 was some great old rifle that everyone wanted - it was just the only thing that could be rapidly fielded and once it got in the hands of marksmen downrange it needed to be rapidly modernized so modern soldiers with body armor could more effectively use it. Just a stop gap solution.

Yes, NSW has used them for many years, but that too had to do with a lack of options and the fact that they are extremely reliable in arctic conditions.

Dark Mod
06-03-2011, 2:16 PM
Wow, I guess all the stories about real US military snipers using semi autos are either made up or, they never got your memo. I'm willing to bet that many of today's US snipers are using SAs ranging from .22cal to .50cal. As far as the m14 platform goes, IIRC, some guy named Carlos Hathcock always had one on hand. In at least one famous incident, it was his weapon of choice. Every mission is different and calls for different tools. Oh, I get it, in your eyes Carlos Hathcock wasn't a sniper, right?

I remember learning about this In bootcamp. IIRC Carlos Hathcock was somewhat of a sniper pioneer as well, many of the things he did differently ended up being adopted by Snipers worldwide. He was the father of the Marine Scout Sniper program, conventional wisdom at the time was bolt actions, but he made shots with an M14 that would blow your mind. I think he also jerry rigged a .50 cal machinegun to fire single shots and took some little kid out on a bicycle from over a mile away

brando
06-03-2011, 3:45 PM
FWIW, there's no trick to making an M2 fire single shot - the spade trigger works semi-auto only until you hold or lockdown the bolt latch release. The real trick is making an accurate shot from an open bolt weapon that, when fired, slams a 5lb bolt forward into the chamber.

Pryde
06-05-2011, 8:18 PM
I find this whole thread hilarious.

On one side you have brando who has deployed numerous times, carried and fired a M14 overseas and is an extremely skilled long range shooter saying the M14 sucks.

And on the other side you have H20man who has never been in the military, never had any formal training and doesn't even live in CA, his only claim to fame is that he paid Ron Smith a lot of money to have "milspec" Mk14 rifles built.

Hmmmm, who am I gonna trust.....

707electrician
06-05-2011, 8:38 PM
I find this whole thread hilarious.

On one side you have brando who has deployed numerous times, carried and fired a M14 overseas and is an extremely skilled long range shooter saying the M14 sucks.

And on the other side you have H20man who has never been in the military, never had any formal training and doesn't even live in CA, his only claim to fame is that he paid Ron Smith a lot of money to have "milspec" Mk14 rifles built.

Hmmmm, who am I gonna trust.....

It seems as though H2Oman spends more time trying to justify spending all that money he spent by making these claims of the M1/M14's great precision on here than he does shooting the thing.

Im not saying that they aren't precision rifles, I don't know enough about them to make that claim, but if you are going to make that claim maybe you should back it up with some targets showing sub-moa groups.

Pryde
06-05-2011, 9:10 PM
It seems as though H2Oman spends more time trying to justify spending all that money he spent by making these claims of the M1/M14's great precision on here than he does shooting the thing.

Im not saying that they aren't precision rifles, I don't know enough about them to make that claim, but if you are going to make that claim maybe you should back it up with some targets showing sub-moa groups.

You hit the nail on the head,
Its a common trend where someone spends a ton of money on something and therefore feels the need to justify his purchase to a bunch of strangers on the internet to make him feel better about his decisions.

Of course this is acceptable and we all do this to some extent but some people just take it too far. When you go around telling people who shoot guns for a living that you know better than they do, that's just ridiculous.

CSACANNONEER
06-08-2011, 7:06 AM
Are you this ornery in your real life?

I try my hardest.:43:

I find this whole thread hilarious.

On one side you have brando who has deployed numerous times, carried and fired a M14 overseas and is an extremely skilled long range shooter saying the M14 sucks.

And on the other side you have H20man who has never been in the military, never had any formal training and doesn't even live in CA, his only claim to fame is that he paid Ron Smith a lot of money to have "milspec" Mk14 rifles built.

Hmmmm, who am I gonna trust.....

LMFAO!

blikeandy
06-08-2011, 7:22 AM
I think I'll stick with my Rem 700

H2O MAN
06-08-2011, 10:53 AM
I find this whole thread hilarious.

On one side you have brando who has deployed numerous times, carried and fired a M14 overseas and is an extremely skilled long range shooter saying the M14 sucks.

And on the other side you have H20man who has never been in the military, never had any formal training and doesn't even live in CA, his only claim to fame is that he paid Ron Smith a lot of money to have "milspec" Mk14 rifles built.

Hmmmm, who am I gonna trust.....

Hmmmm, I guess we can't trust Pryde to read and comprehend the original post.

Pryde's lame personal attacks against me are both predictable and laughable.

This is for those of you wondering just how accurate the M14 EBR platform is.

Originally Posted by Different:


Short answer: sub-MOA

Long answer:

From M14 Rifle History and Development Fifth Edition by Lee Emerson copyright 2011,

"M14 EBR-RI - In 2008, the U. S. Army Tank Automotive Command (TACOM) began a project to modernize the M14 in support of U. S. Army units in Iraq. This work was performed by the Weapons Product Support Integration Directorate of the TACOM Life Cycle Management Command at Rock Island, IL. The M14 EBR-RI Program Manager was Doug Carlstrom from inception through at least June 2010. The first 400 M14 Enhanced Battle Rifle - Rock Island (M14 EBR-RI) rifles had been completed by June 2008. Another 2,200 units had been completed by March 2009. On May 05, 2010, TACOM completed its five thousandth M14 EBR-RI rifle. Another thirty units were completed that month to fulfill all requests submitted by combat unit commanders to date. The conversion of a M14 to a M14 EBR-RI included replacing the M14 stock with a Sage International late second generation M14 EBR stock, reaming the flash suppressor, replacing the cartridge clip guide with a detachable cantilevered sight base (Sage part number M14DCSB), shimming the gas cylinder, and adding a vertical grip (Sage part number 4249), a Harris bipod and a Leupold & Stevens, Inc. variable 3.5-10X day scope with medium height rings. The M14 EBR-RI rifle was shipped to the combat unit with six magazines, a vertical fore grip, a sling, an Otis Products, Inc. cleaning kit, a combination tool and operator manual. By mid-2009, some minor changes were made on new rifles: 1) a crush washer replaced the stainless steel shims 2) a redesigned operating rod guide to make use of the hand guard screws and 3) an improved detachable cantilevered sight base. The acceptance criteria was a maximum of 1.5 MOA with the result averaging 0.89 MOA for the first 5,000 built. The five TACOM rifle builders observed that TRW and Winchester barreled actions typically delivered the best accuracy. Only one rifle in the first 5,000 units was rejected for not meeting the accuracy requirement."

What's truly amazing about the M14EBR-RI is that all of the barrels are standard weight 22.0" chrome lined USGI tubes.

http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/184241_193100514046643_108939879129374_573735_7013 35_n.jpg

Just imagine the accuracy that could be extracted from tubes the big name precision M1A &
M14 barrel makers are offering when these barreled actions are bolted into SAGE EBR stocks.





.

Pryde has an agenda (stalking me) and it appears telling truth isn't part of his plan.

H2O MAN
06-08-2011, 11:25 AM
It seems as though H2Oman spends more time trying to justify spending all that money he spent by making these claims of the M1/M14's great precision on here than he does shooting the thing.


It seems as though a few have a tough time staying on topic ...The topic: The accuracy of the TACOM M14EBR-RI.

I did suggest that interested parties may want to imagine the accuracy that could be extracted from new barrels the big name precision M1A & M14 barrel makers
are offering when these barreled actions are bolted into SAGE EBR stocks, but no matter how hard a few detractors try to make it about something else, > this thread is not about me or my M14s.

H2O MAN
06-08-2011, 11:32 AM
Just a stop gap solution.



The EBR is now a seven year 'stop gap solution' that looks as though
it will continue to be the solution for several additional years to come.

H2O MAN
06-08-2011, 11:36 AM
I know I will piss off a few AR fans for this, but I agree with H2OMAN

The AR platform always have this problem from the start. The only fix is to convert it to a gas piston action like the POF system, but that eliminated the AR free floating barrel which made AR so accurate.
You have to admit, there must be a reason why the military still use the M14 platform as a sniper weapon.
I love my EBR, and with this news, I will spend the rest of my life chasing the sub-MOA result.

Thank you and may you attain sub MOA accuracy very soon :)

HiND-SIGHT
06-08-2011, 12:00 PM
Contribution:

My MOD 1 with a SA M1A 18" cannot produce more than 6 MOA at 100yds with the tensions screw on or off. New barrel? Ditch the SA M1A receiver? Wrongly adjusting tension screw? I wont mind a 22"-24" barrel length either.

My last grouping was centered but the rifle seemed to drift. This was using Federal 168gr HPBT

what to do...what to do...

H2O MAN
06-08-2011, 12:43 PM
Contribution:

My MOD 1 with a SA M1A 18" cannot produce more than 6 MOA at 100yds with the tensions screw on or off.

6 MOA is terrible for any M1A no matter what kind of stock you are using.

PM sent

tacticalcity
06-08-2011, 1:00 PM
I know I will piss off a few AR fans for this, but I agree with H2OMAN

The AR platform always have this problem from the start. The only fix is to convert it to a gas piston action like the POF system, but that eliminated the AR free floating barrel which made AR so accurate.
You have to admit, there must be a reason why the military still use the M14 platform as a sniper weapon.
I love my EBR, and with this news, I will spend the rest of my life chasing the sub-MOA result.

Hate to break it to you but the make shift piston systems for the AR platform has proven to be a less than ideal solution. It brings with it an entirely new host of issues. Including excessive recoil that not only makes it less effective for things like CQB but leads to excess wear and tear and decreased reliability due to breakage. Most experts believe DI is still superior. Because it will last longer and be more reliable over time, and because it is faster and easier to shoot due to the lower felt recoil.

Yes, I know there are variations being used for CQB by various units around the world. Those same units are the ones reporting the issues.

Look, there is no one size fits all perfect solution for any time of shooting...especially precision shooting. Bolt action guys are never going to like the semi-auto solutions. They accept the slow rate of fire in favor of supreme accuracy. Likewise semi-auto guys buy into the idea that what little you loose in accuracy you more than make up for in speed. With in each camp there are groups of people that think one specific platform is superior to all others, and anything else sucks. The reason you cannot agree is that your core goals are different. How you judge effectiveness and define accuracy are different. If you are a wait 6 days to take one shot in the jungle guy...your definitions are radically different than if you are sit in a fixed hide in downtown and pick of two or three insurgents at time as they cross the street guy. Your expectations and needs are worlds apart.

It is the Apple vs PC debate. Ford vs Chevy. The truth is there is no right answer. Each system fills a unique niche. Obviously it does a pretty decent job. Are they're flaws and downsides and gaps with each system? Of course. Is it worth insulting each other it? Of course not.

By the way...PC and Chevy rule. Mac and Ford suck! ;)

H2O MAN
06-08-2011, 1:10 PM
Hate to break it to you but the make shift piston systems for the AR platform has proven to be a less than ideal solution.

I mostly agree with that statement, but POF does seem to have gotten it right.

My chosen AR is piston driven and it does not use a make shift system, it was a piston system from the get-go and it works :)

By the way...PC and Chevy rule. Mac and Ford suck!

Yep :)

Lethal_addict
06-08-2011, 1:14 PM
Nice rig bud... Missed you at SHOT... Next year for sure!

Hello Lethal!

Smith Enterprise has a new 16.25" 4 groove 1/10 twist barrel, mine is good for 1 - 1.5 MOA.

Here is the new CQB 16 pictured above my old 18.0" Crazy Horse Mod 0

http://i895.photobucket.com/albums/ac160/The_H2O_MAN/MK14EBR-RI/CQB 16/IMG_4643.jpg

Peter W Bush
06-08-2011, 2:05 PM
Threads like this make me miss Randall more...

Why spend thousands upon thousands on an M1A platform when there are better options around. That's all I'm gonna say about it.

paradox
06-08-2011, 2:16 PM
Threads like this make me miss Randall more...

Why spend thousands upon thousands on an M1A platform when there are better options around. That's all I'm gonna say about it.

Yeah, for the amount it costs to get an M1A to shoot well, you could build an AR-10 style rifle from the ground up and have money left over for ammo. And the base price for the M1A could purchase some nice glass....

H2O MAN
06-08-2011, 2:19 PM
The M14s we are talking about are paid for. They were paid for long ago and
the total cost of two EBR conversions is far less than the cost of a single M110.

paradox
06-08-2011, 2:22 PM
The M14s we are talking about are paid for. They were paid for long ago and
the total cost of two conversions is far less than the cost of a single M110.

How much did the conversion cost?

How much do they weigh?

thai562
06-08-2011, 3:32 PM
The exact cost will be hard to fine out, unless you have an in with the military. But logically, it should be a lot less than a whole weapon. The conversion only replace the stock and maybe barrel, if it is worn. Civilian cost for those items are $700 for the stock and about $450 for the barrel. Not sure how much the military paid for those items.
Not include optic and accessories since both weapon will need similar optic and acc.
Also you don't have to pay for R&D cost, since the Navy SEAL paid for it long ago.

The weight is around 12 pounds, don't quote on it.

H2O MAN
06-09-2011, 5:27 AM
How much did the conversion cost?

How much do they weigh?


This should help answer your questions.


Heads up!

The April 2011 Guns & Ammo magazine COMBAT ARMS features the M14 EBR-RI.
It hits store shelves April 3rd.

Read more: http://m14hdw.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=0&action=display&thread=1183#ixzz1OmUMXDvG








.

paradox
06-09-2011, 6:35 AM
This should help answer your questions.


And why should I buy an overpriced collection of advertisements or sign up for a forum I don't care about to get a simple answer? If you are the accuratized M14 guru on board, you should know, how much would it cost in parts and smith work to make a run of the mill springfield look and shoot like these guns? How much does the end product weigh?

H2O MAN
06-09-2011, 7:00 AM
And why should I buy an overpriced collection of advertisements or sign up for a forum I don't care about...

Why?, because I thought you wanted to learn something.

I don't own any M1As and I have no idea what the parts and smith work costs are to make a run of the mill Springfield M1A look and shoot like these guns. I don't even know what a 'run of the mill' M1A is.

You need to be real specific about what you have and what you want to end up with.


BTW, the weight of the M14EBR-RI w/ iron sights & sling........11.30 lbs.

H2O MAN
06-09-2011, 7:26 AM
A nice picture of the M14EBR-RI
Looks like the 101st Airborne in Afghanistan


http://i895.photobucket.com/albums/ac160/The_H2O_MAN/MK14EBR-RI/m14.jpg





.

H2O MAN
06-10-2011, 5:04 AM
Total number of M14 EBR-RI rifles built to date (May 2011) is 5,441.
At this time TACOM has been fully funded to complete 6,200 conversions.

Reference: U. S. Department of the Army, Project Manager Soldier Weapons. "Project Manager Soldier Weapons Briefing." National Defense Industrial Association Small Arms Symposium & Exhibition: May 23-26, 2011.

Thanks goes out to Different.

H2O MAN
06-10-2011, 11:28 AM
PDF of G&A COMBAT ARMS M14EBR-RI article (http://www.smithenterprise.com/misc/Combat-Arms-2011-Rock-Island.pdf)

giants_fan24
06-10-2011, 11:37 AM
This is for those of you wondering just how accurate the M14 EBR platform is.



What's truly amazing about the M14EBR-RI is that all of the barrels are standard weight 22.0" chrome lined USGI tubes.

http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/184241_193100514046643_108939879129374_573735_7013 35_n.jpg

Just imagine the accuracy that could be extracted from tubes the big name precision M1A &
M14 barrel makers are offering when these barreled actions are bolted into SAGE EBR stocks.




.

It looks pretty cool but I love the wood stock on mine, I like the classic look.

gotshotgun?
06-10-2011, 4:16 PM
It looks pretty cool but I love the wood stock on mine, I like the classic look.

Agreed!

jcaoloveshine
06-10-2011, 5:56 PM
eh, i've shot my friend's scout in an EBR and i felt like my loaded m1a with 22" barrel was still quicker on the draw, and although the EBR increases accuracy to me going from 1.5-2MOA on a loaded shooting surp ammo to going sub-moa is negligent when I'm just blasting steel.

i'd rather have the flexibility and pointability of the classic stock, but i guess if you're getting an EBR you're probably gonna scope out the m1a anyways, in which case flexibility is basically irrelevant.

Pryde
06-10-2011, 10:15 PM
Hmmmm, I guess we can't trust Pryde to read and comprehend the original post.

Pryde's lame personal attacks against me are both predictable and laughable.



Pryde has an agenda (stalking me) and it appears telling truth isn't part of his plan.

Since I am "stalking" you, do you care to explain how it is that my join date on this forum is 2005, and yours is 2010?

Why do you not address the question?
Brando and several others who have had formal military sniper/marksmen training and have deployed with the M14 have said numerous times that it is a pig: it is not that accurate and not that ergonomic. Yet you repeatedly argue and say that they are wrong.

What is your experience and/or training that leads you to refute their claims and say otherwise? Posting pictures of your guns, pictures of guns in IRQ/AFG and links to fluff articles to M14s does not qualify you as an expert. Spending your life savings on upgrades to your M14s does not qualify you as an expert. You have stated that you have no military experience and no formal training.

I know you want to think that I am some boogeyman out to get you, but the only time I ever posted anything about you on another forum is on M4carbine. You got yourself banned from there, ARFCOM and lightfighter, I didn't have anything to do with that. I don't think you're a bad guy, I just think you are way too emotionally invested in your toys and your attitude pisses people off.

H2O MAN
06-11-2011, 4:51 AM
You guys piss and moan, but never to the source... you would rather attack the messenger because it's easier... your current methods aren't working.
Pryde, I suggest that you, Brando and others take up your grievances with the experts that build the M14EBR-RI and the experts that write the articles.


No matter how hard you try, this isn't about me or my rifles.

H2O MAN
06-11-2011, 4:57 AM
A little back story on the TACOM M14EBR-RI

Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan (http://www.armytimes.com/news/2010/03/army_m14_032210w/)

By Matthew Cox - Staff writer
Posted : Monday Mar 22, 2010

H2O MAN
06-11-2011, 5:05 AM
M14 ENHANCED BATTLE RIFLE (EBR), 7.62MM SUPPLEMENT TO TM 9-1005-223-10 (www.m14.ca/DIY/M14_EBR_SUPPLEMENT.pdf)

hunteran
06-11-2011, 6:04 AM
Dude, I'd say that Brando and Pryde ARE experts. The articles you're linking? Any company is gonna toot their own horn (and armytimes isn't known for their expertise, sorry). I'd much rather listen to someone who has operational experience with a product than someone with a stake in the EBR platform (again, no company is going to admit that there is a better product out there, its bad business). The M14 can be made accurate, but it takes a lot of time, money and expertise to do so and they often don't stay accurate for long. It also suffers from a lack of spare parts, lack of armorer support (most of the people who worked on those rifles have long been retired) and has a different manual of arms than AR based platforms. Not to mention that the AR platform is a much more inherently accurate weapon system.

The experts (the real ones) are pretty unanimous in their opinion about the M14 platform and its obsolescence. Its cool from a nostalgic standpoint, but there are better options out there.

H2O MAN
06-11-2011, 8:04 AM
Dude, this thread isn't about me, Pryde, Brando or the AR, it's about the TACOM
M14EBR-RI and the accuracy the SAGE EBR stock extracts from the M14 rifle.

juan_
06-11-2011, 8:06 AM
Haters will hate especially on gun forums. Just because You have been banned on a gun forum means nothing. Alot of guys on gun forums have tiny penises and some of them are mods. I am banned on quite a few gun forums due to the tiny penis keyboard commandos.

rojocorsa
06-11-2011, 8:54 AM
Brando and several others who have had formal military sniper/marksmen training and have deployed with the M14 have said numerous times that it is a pig: it is not that accurate and not that ergonomic.


I also know of someone with similar training who served in Afghanistan; his verdict on the rifle was pretty much the same.



How much does a high-end pimped out M-14 clone cost anyway? (Serious question)

Pryde
06-11-2011, 10:12 AM
Dude, I'd say that Brando and Pryde ARE experts. The articles you're linking? Any company is gonna toot their own horn (and armytimes isn't known for their expertise, sorry). I'd much rather listen to someone who has operational experience with a product than someone with a stake in the EBR platform (again, no company is going to admit that there is a better product out there, its bad business). The M14 can be made accurate, but it takes a lot of time, money and expertise to do so and they often don't stay accurate for long. It also suffers from a lack of spare parts, lack of armorer support (most of the people who worked on those rifles have long been retired) and has a different manual of arms than AR based platforms. Not to mention that the AR platform is a much more inherently accurate weapon system.

The experts (the real ones) are pretty unanimous in their opinion about the M14 platform and its obsolescence. Its cool from a nostalgic standpoint, but there are better options out there.

Trust me, I will readily admit I'm not an expert when it comes to M14/M1A.

But I will defer to others who are. H20man does not and just posts the same links to the same pictures and articles whenever you tell him he is wrong, half of his posts on this forum are repeats and the other half are one line replies with pictures of his guns attached. He's basically just on here to sell products for Smith Enterprise.

Mute
06-11-2011, 10:18 AM
These articles only support the contention that our armed forces needed something in 7.62 NATO to fill some roles and the only thing in their inventory that will meet the role is the M14/M1A. To get widespread deployment of something that is not in inventory requires testing, competition and bidding. That doesn't work well when you need it right now. Again, I'm not seeing anything that supports the idea that the M14 platform is the best choice. Only the best choice given the circumstances.

H2O MAN
06-11-2011, 10:20 AM
He's basically just on here to sell products for Smith Enterprise.
Pryde, one thing is for sure, you are quite good at furthering baseless accusations.

JHermsen
06-11-2011, 10:31 AM
I have experience w/ the EBR at 1K and under. It's an OK platform, hits reliably at 1K with the right atmospheric conditions. At sea "levelish" it can hit to 8 going on 900 yds; beyond that and it doesn't have the poop.

My biggest complaint is the extend able stock is weak, once bent one pressing up w/ it from prone, couldn't believe it happened so easily!

Truth is, I'd rather have a NM rifle than it.

H2O MAN
06-11-2011, 10:35 AM
These articles only support the contention that our armed forces needed something in 7.62 NATO to fill some roles and the only thing in their inventory that will meet the role is the M14/M1A. To get widespread deployment of something that is not in inventory requires testing, competition and bidding. That doesn't work well when you need it right now. Again, I'm not seeing anything that supports the idea that the M14 platform is the best choice. Only the best choice given the circumstances.

That is a very good observation.

Even the guys at TACOM know that the M14EBR-RI is not the be all end all 7.62 bullet delivery system, but it's not terrible either, it's very accurate, it's cheap to convert, it's reliable, supplies of potential
conversions are abundant, the private sector is supporting the platform with mil-spec/as good as or better than GI parts and the vast majority of reports indicate that it has proven it's worth on the battlefield.

With today's economic situation and no real light at the end of the tunnel yet, I predict that the modernized M14 will serve for many more years to come.

hunteran
06-11-2011, 11:07 AM
Trust me, I will readily admit I'm not an expert when it comes to M14/M1A.

But I will defer to others who are. H20man does not and just posts the same links to the same pictures and articles whenever you tell him he is wrong, half of his posts on this forum are repeats and the other half are one line replies with pictures of his guns attached. He's basically just on here to sell products for Smith Enterprise.

No kidding. I was re-reading some of the old threads where he was posting under the handle "Rex Kramer". Its amazing how much more he knows than industry professionals, snipers, gunsmiths, and national match shooters. Also amazing how he knows more about what real-world combat conditions are like than the aforementioned snipers and other BTDT dudes. I'm as low speed as they come, but I know enough to know when to clam up and listen to the real professionals...

Black Majik
06-11-2011, 11:15 AM
How come this stuff isn't posted on ARFcom like it used to be? The members there no longer listen too all the "Smith Enterprise is the best" posts anymore?

H2O MAN
06-11-2011, 11:18 AM
Its amazing how much the haters want to ignore the facts and make this about me and my rifles.

Even if you choose to ignore the facts, the information on the TACOM M14EBR-RI put forth in this thread is real-world.

Pryde
06-11-2011, 12:14 PM
How come this stuff isn't posted on ARFcom like it used to be? The members there no longer listen too all the "Smith Enterprise is the best" posts anymore?

He was banned from that forum too:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=6&t=322525&page=1

Mute
06-11-2011, 12:14 PM
That is a very good observation.

Even the guys at TACOM know that the M14EBR-RI is not the be all end all 7.62 bullet delivery system, but it's not terrible either, it's very accurate, it's cheap to convert, it's reliable, supplies of potential
conversions are abundant, the private sector is supporting the platform with mil-spec/as good as or better than GI parts and the vast majority of reports indicate that it has proven it's worth on the battlefield.

With today's economic situation and no real light at the end of the tunnel yet, I predict that the modernized M14 will serve for many more years to come.

I assume that by this statement you agree that the M14EBR-RI isn't the best rifle for this role, only the best based on the use of existing inventory?

Peter W Bush
06-11-2011, 2:52 PM
He was banned from that forum too:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=6&t=322525&page=1

:eek:
"M14 EBR rewrites history?" Seriously? The M14 didn't kill anyone. The Marine behind it did.
What an embarrassing thread. I like how the OP is arguing about the rifle with a guy who actually used one. I hope the OP read the rest of that thread. That's all I'll say about that.

It seems that a lot of these posts are to make someone feel better about spending $3000 on a platform that wasn't built for precision.
Don't get me wrong- I really like the M14. I'm waiting on a good deal for a scount and I would love to pick one up. If I was a sniper, would it be my weapon of choice? No way. Why can't you just like the rifle for what it is and be happy with it?

My Winchester 1894 is one of my favorite rifles. Short, light, packs a punch. Accurate enough for taking game. I think it's more fun than my ARs. But, it's not a sub MOA rifle, the maximum effective range is 2-300 yards, it's slow to reload, I can't effectively shoot it prone, etc.
Point is, I know what my rifle was made for and it does a damn good job at it. I don't need to justify it by what someone else says and I don't need it to shoot .5" at 100 yards. The M14 is good for what it was intended for. Fine. It didn't "rewrite history."

Saigon1965
06-11-2011, 2:59 PM
Not ignoring facts - Ofcourse Tacom will put out the best review - That's a given -

But to ignor real user facts is buying in to the reviews -

Wonder what reviewers on Yelp is saying about this platform -

Its amazing how much the haters want to ignore the facts and make this about me and my rifles.

Even if you choose to ignore the facts, the information on the TACOM M14EBR-RI put forth in this thread is real-world.

Uriah02
06-11-2011, 3:58 PM
I know I will piss off a few AR fans for this, but I agree with H2OMAN

The AR platform always have this problem from the start. The only fix is to convert it to a gas piston action like the POF system, but that eliminated the AR free floating barrel which made AR so accurate.
You have to admit, there must be a reason why the military still use the M14 platform as a sniper weapon.
I love my EBR, and with this news, I will spend the rest of my life chasing the sub-MOA result.

http://www.pof-usa.net/pdf_files/P-308ballistictestresults.pdf
Their report posts decent numbers IMO. My roomate has been getting similar to better results with his P308 as well.

I thought I was a fanboy of a few things, I am surprised how divisive this thread has gotten.

thai562
06-11-2011, 7:58 PM
Their report posts decent numbers IMO
That look very good, I am glad to see that result.
I also heard that some of the troop were given a piston upgrade kits for there rifle. I hope that is true, they have been waiting for that since the 60s.

I think a lot of people mis-read this thread. Just because somebody said they like the M14 that doesn't mean that same person hate all other rifles.
That also mean, when that person said the M14 EBR is accurate, it doesn't mean that all other rifles are in accurate.

Up front. I like the EBR.
Why? Because it is an old rifle that can still do the job. I also like the 1911, the B52 bomber, and those mechanical wrist watch for the same reason. Yes they can only hold 8 rounds, yes they are not stealth, and yes they lose a few second every month, but these stuff were created way before most of us were born. How can that be not cool.

rojocorsa
06-11-2011, 8:55 PM
:eek:
"M14 EBR rewrites history?" Seriously? The M14 didn't kill anyone. The Marine behind it did.
What an embarrassing thread. I like how the OP is arguing about the rifle with a guy who actually used one. I hope the OP read the rest of that thread. That's all I'll say about that.

It seems that a lot of these posts are to make someone feel better about spending $3000 on a platform that wasn't built for precision.
Don't get me wrong- I really like the M14. I'm waiting on a good deal for a scount and I would love to pick one up. If I was a sniper, would it be my weapon of choice? No way. Why can't you just like the rifle for what it is and be happy with it?

My Winchester 1894 is one of my favorite rifles. Short, light, packs a punch. Accurate enough for taking game. I think it's more fun than my ARs. But, it's not a sub MOA rifle, the maximum effective range is 2-300 yards, it's slow to reload, I can't effectively shoot it prone, etc.
Point is, I know what my rifle was made for and it does a damn good job at it. I don't need to justify it by what someone else says and I don't need it to shoot .5" at 100 yards. The M14 is good for what it was intended for. Fine. It didn't "rewrite history."


Amen, this is how I can enjoy Mosins so much. That they're cheap is but a bonus to me.

hnoppenberger
06-12-2011, 1:37 AM
You have to admit, there must be a reason why the military still use the M14 platform as a sniper weapon.


only reason, because they have them. ar-10 is better in every damn way.

H2O MAN
06-12-2011, 4:43 AM
One thing this thread proves











http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Qkqyxkk0m-0/TM8CEb0-pLI/AAAAAAAAAXs/YvykxwxCG3c/s320/smug_obama_haters+gonna+hate.jpg

H2O MAN
06-12-2011, 5:28 AM
Gentlemen, I think we might be drifting way off topic.

This thread concerns the TACOM M14EBR-RI, it's accuracy, and nothing else.



.

Peter W Bush
06-12-2011, 11:32 AM
Gentlemen, I think we might be drifting way off topic.

This thread concerns the TACOM M14EBR-RI, it's accuracy, and nothing else.



.
:rolleyes:

Why don't you show us some groups you shot with an EBR then.

Peter W Bush
06-12-2011, 11:35 AM
One thing this thread proves





http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Qkqyxkk0m-0/TM8CEb0-pLI/AAAAAAAAAXs/YvykxwxCG3c/s320/smug_obama_haters+gonna+hate.jpg

Fanboys gonna... Fan? I don't know lol.
You seem to be more obsessive about this EBR than Glock, 1911, and 9mm fans combined.

H2O MAN
06-12-2011, 12:43 PM
:rolleyes:

Some of you have no idea what the topic of this thread is.

luckystrike
06-12-2011, 12:45 PM
it is just as accurate as the rifle it sits on.

AngelDecoys
06-12-2011, 1:50 PM
PDF of G&A COMBAT ARMS M14EBR-RI article (http://www.smithenterprise.com/misc/Combat-Arms-2011-Rock-Island.pdf)

Interesting article. Like you've said, this thread is about the rifle, not you. Personally, I could care less if you owned a rifle or not. Its less relevant than the information (which speaks for itself). Nor do I consider anecdotal stories from servicemen all that relevant. Their job is to perform well with whatever system they are given. They seem to be doing just fine and i see no reason not to use both systems if available. This doesn't need to be a one of the other argument. And as a civilian why not own both?

From the above linked article.
Although TACOM won't accept anything that shoots greater than 1 1/2 MOA, the average group measures .97 MOA. During my visit four rifles were tested and the poorest accuracy was .76 MOA. The best rifle produced an incredible .44 MOA.

According to the article, a 3 shot group on tag is measured and dropped into each box before shipping. Springfield is the chevy/ford level of the M14 platform. They seem to be what most people base their experience (and criticism) on. I imagine a custom rifle (LRB/Smith) with Criterion NM barrel would do equally well. However, before i get really excited, I'd like to see some sample results using the standard SA M1A.

That's pretty good accuracy considering the M110 is held to 2.2MOA at 100 yards (for 10 round groups).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M110_Semi-Automatic_Sniper_System

Indeed. And it would seem M14 with EBR is slightly better. Just curious if anyone knows, do they ship each M110 with an enlarged index card sans 10 shot group? Or are we taking their word for it?

And do any civilian AR-10's/DPMS .308 manufacturers ship with an accuracy guarantee? I'm a civilian after all so if a manufacturer makes a .308 that's boasted as 'better' I want the 'proof target' when I buy it.

Personally I don't see any reason not to own both an AR-10 and a M14 EBR. I have a JP .308 upper with an 18 inch barrel being built right now. And I plan on having an LRB25 receiver built up one day.

As for the military? It would seem the M14 is doing just fine. Better than keeping in old rifles in crates. And better than destroying serviceable rifles. We own them; lets use them.

Hoop
06-12-2011, 2:41 PM
Indeed. And it would seem M14 with EBR is slightly better.


It's 1.1" difference between groups suppressed vs. unsuppressed (as in, you shoot a group, attach a suppressor and shoot another and they are only an inch apart), and .68" for a 5 shot group at 100 yards (in other words, probably .75" at 100M for 5 shot group). Now, if you shoot one group unsuppressed, another suppressed, and add all those numbers together you get the 2.2 referenced at the bottom of the article. IIRC the EBR is three shot groups at 100 using m118lr at an inch and if Mr. EBR Salesman is to be believed a lot of them shoot much less that that.

However none of that means that every rifle will shoot that well. Accuracy guarantees are contingent on good ammunition and a good shooter shooting in ideal conditions. So while they may say the standard is X MOA at Y yards I doubt a guy in Afghanistan using mixed headstamp ball ammo without a proper rest is going to be getting better than 2", and if the rifle is heavy to lug around he will hate it all the more.

As an aside, I think most accurate AR/M1A builders will give an accuracy guarantee of some sort as well as a sample target (M110/SR-25 rifles I think ship with a test target as a some of the pics I've found online had one included in the hard case).

A lot of the more mass-produced companies will say 1.5MOA because that is what Average Joe is going to get using factory ammo even if the rifle will do better. Obviously a quality AR or M1A builder will guarantee less with match ammo because the rifle is built to a more exacting set of tolerances as well as marketed to more discerning buyers.

Hopefully that answers your questions.

Hoop
06-12-2011, 2:44 PM
:rolleyes:

Why don't you show us some groups you shot with an EBR then.

I asked him to post some groups awhile back and he basically called me a troll and told me to get lost.

I don't care if you can't shoot worth a damn H2OMAN, just post up some groups of YOURS. Not groups that some editor shot, not groups that some tester shot, YOURS.

Why? Because I'd like to know how well one of these rifles actually shoots in the hands of a normal ding-dong (like me) and not a trained shooter in a laboratory or some who's getting paid to talk up the rifle he's reviewing...

Rebellious
06-12-2011, 2:47 PM
:popcorn:

bomb_on_bus
06-12-2011, 8:43 PM
Seriously this thread is going south just like all other threads that is started by the OP in the hopes to generate sales and more fanboys. Its the same sort of shenanigans here in this thread as in almost all of the OPs other threads.

So where are these magic groups we all keep hearing about.
:lurk5:

Pryde
06-12-2011, 11:22 PM
Posting groups as proof is dumb, someone can just set their target at 25 and say that it was shot at 200. I have never seen someone shoot a mythical sub MOA group with an M14 in person and I have seen a shot quite a few of them.

rojocorsa
06-12-2011, 11:55 PM
I don't see how posting random pics does anything either.

It's no different than if I posted this.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4058/4409875055_c405137e0c.jpg

No doubt, better stuff out there than that rifle.

***
We use them because we have them is a good answer.
***

I can't understand the bother to make this sub-MOA when the original M-1 was designed to be a battle rifle, not a precision rifle.

Peter W Bush
06-13-2011, 12:57 AM
I asked him to post some groups awhile back and he basically called me a troll and told me to get lost.

I don't care if you can't shoot worth a damn H2OMAN, just post up some groups of YOURS. Not groups that some editor shot, not groups that some tester shot, YOURS.

Why? Because I'd like to know how well one of these rifles actually shoots in the hands of a normal ding-dong (like me) and not a trained shooter in a laboratory or some who's getting paid to talk up the rifle he's reviewing...

IIRC, that was the "pics of precision rifles" thread, right? I don't get why the OP doesn't get the point yet. M1A is a battle rifle. That's it. Can't put lipstick on a pig, H2O. Get over that fact that for $1000 you can buy an AR10 upper that will shoot better than your precious MK14whateverthehellitscalled

One of the members here has an AK that hits targets at 600 yards. You don't see him starting threads claiming that the AK makes history as the precision rifle of the world.

Want sub moa for cheap? A factory remmy varmint sps can shoot sub MOA at 100 yards. Big whoop my friend.

H2O MAN
06-13-2011, 4:24 AM
Seriously this thread is going south ...
What are you selling and who are your fanboys?

H2O MAN
06-13-2011, 4:26 AM
PWB, the point is the accuracy of the TACOM M14EBR-RI.
Why don't you get that?

CavTrooper
06-13-2011, 4:56 AM
PWB, the point is the accuracy of the TACOM M14EBR-RI.
Why don't you get that?

No, you arent getting it. Guys who have used this rifle in the field with standard issued ammo are not getting the results that are claimed in the article. I carried a scoped M-14 in 2005, one of my partners got the EBR package, there was no difference in accuracy, just looks. But hey, paint it red and itll go faster right?

H2O MAN
06-13-2011, 6:07 AM
No, you arent getting it. Guys who have used this rifle in the field with standard issued ammo are not getting the results that are claimed in the article.

I get that and it's a real shame that our military can't provide to the troops the same ammo these rifles are test fired with at Rock Island.

The M14EBR-RI accuracy is based on M118LR... I'll assume troops carrying the M110 face the same ammo/accuracy issues. How hard is it to get LC M118LR?






.

Hoop
06-13-2011, 7:29 AM
Posting groups as proof is dumb, someone can just set their target at 25 and say that it was shot at 200.

I like to think that people are basically honest & when they post up a group at X distance they aren't BS'ing. But yeah it's not like it's against the law to post BS groups to make your epeen grow...

Hoop
06-13-2011, 7:39 AM
the point is the accuracy of the TACOM M14EBR-RI.

And how would you know anything about that? That would be like me posting up a bunch of SR-25 range reports even though I've never seen one, let alone taken it to the range...

H2O MAN
06-13-2011, 7:44 AM
And how would you know anything about that?


I read the story and the reports... you should try it.

Also, I have met and talked with the top two from RI, have you?

H2O MAN
06-13-2011, 7:48 AM
I like to think that people are basically honest & when they post up a group at X distance they aren't BS'ing.

Agreed, but if my groups were better than expected or even just reasonable someone would call BS as they have done on other forums.

They see the groups and then they want video. They see the video and then they still call BS and request a DNA test... it never ends with these guys.




.

CavTrooper
06-13-2011, 10:13 AM
I get that and it's a real shame that our military can't provide to the troops the same ammo these rifles are test fired with at Rock Island.

The M14EBR-RI accuracy is based on M118LR... I'll assume troops carrying the M110 face the same ammo/accuracy issues. How hard is it to get LC M118LR?
.

Never had a problem getting the ammo I needed, we were able to draw CANS of M118LR basically at will.

This is just my experience, doesnt mean that the articles claims are completely false.

H2O MAN
06-13-2011, 10:30 AM
The accuracy should not be any worse than about 2 MOA with standard issued ammo.

HK Dave
06-13-2011, 10:45 AM
This post makes me want to sell my M1A and buy an AR10. :(

hunteran
06-13-2011, 11:16 AM
The accuracy should not be any worse than about 2 MOA with standard issued ammo.

Oh. My. God. Does anyone else see how ridiculous this is?

H2O MAN
06-13-2011, 11:21 AM
I see that you about to make a ridiculous comment concerning accuracy... please continue.

jcaoloveshine
06-13-2011, 11:24 AM
M1A is an accurate battle rifle. Read: battle rifle.

Yes it can be accurized and you can shoot it as a match rifle, but it excels as a battle rifle capable of 2MOA or better. That, for me, is good enough. 2 MOA + reliability = perfect ingredients for a combat weapon.

Of course the AR10 is more accurate, the design is inherently better. The EBR platform and other modifications will bring the M1A closer to sub-MOA but again you're just fixing side issues while the design of the rifle does not produce the same accuracy as an AR10 platform.

That said I have an M1A Loaded and I love it, but if I wanted a semiauto rifle to shoot tiny tiny holes at long range I'd get an AR10. Or even better, a bolt 308.

But you can't beat the balance of ruggedness and accuracy in an M1A. In terms of tradeoff between reliability and accuracy, I think the M1A strikes a fine balance.

Bladewurk
06-13-2011, 11:28 AM
I loved my M1a, very accurate and a great rifle. I shot that rifle really well and it is a very simple rugged design. I strongly disliked the safety and ergos..also the parts were so overpriced and I felt the bedding requirements and maintenance required excessive since I had the Fiberglass bedded stock that required yearly skim job.

H2O MAN
06-13-2011, 11:29 AM
The EBR platform and other modifications will bring the M1A closer to sub-MOA but ... the design of the rifle does not produce the same accuracy as an AR10 platform.

Maybe I'm not understanding what you are saying, but what 'other modifications' are you talking about and how is
the sub MOA accuracy from a reliable M14EBR-RI not the same or better accuracy than that of the AR10 platform?



.

jcaoloveshine
06-13-2011, 12:12 PM
Maybe I'm not understanding what you are saying, but what 'other modifications' are you talking about and how is
the sub MOA accuracy from a reliable M14EBR-RI not the same or better accuracy than that of the AR10 platform?



.

Other mods as in bedding, unitizing gas system, etc etc

I'm just saying the AR10 can be brought to half MOA, but I've yet to see an M1A that can hit that benchmark (sub-MOA definitely).

But you can't deny the thousands of dollars you'd have to pour into an M1A to get it on par with a sub-MOA AR10, that's for sure.

I mean most of the National Match M1As shoot around 1MOA in a glass-bedded fiberglass stock, and you're looking at a $3000-$4000 rifle right there.

Still a great rifle, I just enjoy shooting steel at range with irons over measuring tiny tiny holes.

H2O MAN
06-13-2011, 12:22 PM
The SAGE EBR chassis stock system eliminates the need for bedding, unitizing the gas system, etc.
and it cuts group sizes in half... EBR stocks do not cost thousands of dollars, they cost about $800.



Other mods as in bedding, unitizing gas system, etc etc

I'm just saying the AR10 can be brought to half MOA, but I've yet to see an M1A that can hit that benchmark (sub-MOA definitely).

But you can't deny the thousands of dollars you'd have to pour into an M1A to get it on par with a sub-MOA AR10, that's for sure.

I mean most of the National Match M1As shoot around 1MOA in a glass-bedded fiberglass stock, and you're looking at a $3000-$4000 rifle right there.

Still a great rifle, I just enjoy shooting steel at range with irons over measuring tiny tiny holes.

Pryde
06-13-2011, 12:31 PM
The SAGE EBR chassis stock system eliminates the need for bedding, unitizing the gas system, etc.
and it cuts group sizes in half... EBR stocks do not cost thousands of dollars, they cost about $800.

Another disingenuous post shilling for SEI.
Weren't you recently banned from Snipershide due to accusations of having an agenda for helping Smith Enterprise sell their products without a vendor account?

H2O MAN
06-13-2011, 12:41 PM
Only an ignoranus with an agenda would read the following
quote and come up with SEI and then make false accusations.

The SAGE EBR chassis stock system eliminates the need for bedding, unitizing the gas system, etc.
and it cuts group sizes in half... EBR stocks do not cost thousands of dollars, they cost about $800.

Pryde, you seem to be quite fond of telling lies and fabricating BS.
Your so-called credibility here and elsewhere is nothing to be proud of.


You really should try to stay on topic... the topic is about the accuracy of the M14EBR-RI.

Get on target or get lost.









.

jcaoloveshine
06-13-2011, 12:44 PM
The SAGE EBR chassis stock system eliminates the need for bedding, unitizing the gas system, etc.
and it cuts group sizes in half... EBR stocks do not cost thousands of dollars, they cost about $800.

Perhaps, but I've used the stock before and disliked the ergonomics. Too bulky for my liking. I like the way the AR10 handles much more than a Sage M1A.

The M1A in its stock configuration, however, points like no other. Perfectly balanced rifle and even with a medium-weight match rifle it is not front-heavy like many ARs I've handled. I figure if I want to shoot little holes I'll grab a bolt rifle.

H2O MAN
06-13-2011, 12:56 PM
Perhaps, but I've used the stock before and disliked the ergonomics. Too bulky for my liking. I like the way the AR10 handles much more than a Sage M1A.

The M1A in its stock configuration, however, points like no other. Perfectly balanced rifle and even with a medium-weight match rifle it is not front-heavy like many ARs I've handled. I figure if I want to shoot little holes I'll grab a bolt rifle.

That's perfectly acceptable, finding what works best for you is a smart move.
It's good to have options to choose from, I have problems with traditional stocks
(wrist injuries) and I'm more comfortable with pistol gripped stocks.

BTW there are currently 4 distinct versions of the SAGE EBR stock available, what version did you try?






.

H2O MAN
06-13-2011, 3:45 PM
http://i895.photobucket.com/albums/ac160/The_H2O_MAN/MK14EBR-RI/Chaki_Wardak_District_2010-09-25.jpg

Sgt. Slaughter
06-13-2011, 4:02 PM
I get that and it's a real shame that our military can't provide to the troops the same ammo these rifles are test fired with at Rock Island.

The M14EBR-RI accuracy is based on M118LR... I'll assume troops carrying the M110 face the same ammo/accuracy issues. How hard is it to get LC M118LR?






.
Why should the military shell out special ammo? You can take a shi*t in an AR10 and it will out preform every time. Why would the military use a platform that is less accurate, more expensive and only runs on ammo made of gold. Look, I like M1A's, they are fun to shoot, and If you want to spend an as*sload of cash on upgrades, awesome! Have fun, post pics, sweet rifle, all that crap. If you like fat-ugly chicks, sweet! pork 'em all you want, but the rest of the world wants the skinny chick with the big cans, Ya dig?

Solidsnake87
06-13-2011, 5:54 PM
LOL. The M110 is held to 2.2 MOA? They should get their $$ back. It not hard to build a Krieger barreled AR-10 for $1500 that shoots .5 MOA.

H2O MAN
06-13-2011, 6:02 PM
Speaking of fat-ugly chicks, doesn't the M110 dine on an exclusive diet of M118LR at the very same place she sh*ts?
You can poke that nasty sh*t all you want, I prefer to enjoy the company of a clean woman that isn't quite as picky about what she eats.

bomb_on_bus
06-13-2011, 8:37 PM
Why should the military shell out special ammo? You can take a shi*t in an AR10 and it will out preform every time. Why would the military use a platform that is less accurate, more expensive and only runs on ammo made of gold. Look, I like M1A's, they are fun to shoot, and If you want to spend an as*sload of cash on upgrades, awesome! Have fun, post pics, sweet rifle, all that crap. If you like fat-ugly chicks, sweet! pork 'em all you want, but the rest of the world wants the skinny chick with the big cans, Ya dig?

:D

+100%

tonb
06-13-2011, 8:38 PM
It's a wonderful rifle but it's an outdated platform for what we need to do.

They are dusting off M14's and reissuing them into service today however...

Peter W Bush
06-13-2011, 8:43 PM
Oh. My. God. Does anyone else see how ridiculous this is?

Yes. :mad:

tiger222
06-13-2011, 9:05 PM
The M14 / M1A is best in with a wood stock and an aimpoint, lots of fun and can hit the metal animals at will at Angeles, imho. The only reason we continue to see M14's in action is because we are engaged in two worthless wars, one of which was started completely illegally. Georgie LIED, not even going into the theft from the twin towers gold depositry and the $15B theft from the fed and the 911 cover-up.

Not to demean the immense sacrifice of our fighting men and women, who are supreb, the M14's like our presence in these two pointless areas of the world should be brought home. No one likes us there, no one wants us there. It's all about money, drugs and the ego of a Texas idiot, guys. Nothing has changed, and we are arguing about brass points. If you love the gun buy it. If you don't, don't. For the record, I'm a FAL man, but for a modern DMR, we need to follow the lead of our NATO allies and adopt the LMT MWS or HK417.

hunteran
06-13-2011, 9:55 PM
The M14 / M1A is best in with a wood stock and an aimpoint, lots of fun and can hit the metal animals at will at Angeles, imho. The only reason we continue to see M14's in action is because we are engaged in two worthless wars, one of which was started completely illegally. Georgie LIED, not even going into the theft from the twin towers gold depositry and the $15B theft from the fed and the 911 cover-up.

Not to demean the immense sacrifice of our fighting men and women, who are supreb, the M14's like our presence in these two pointless areas of the world should be brought home. No one likes us there, no one wants us there. It's all about money, drugs and the ego of a Texas idiot, guys. Nothing has changed, and we are arguing about brass points. If you love the gun buy it. If you don't, don't. For the record, I'm a FAL man, but for a modern DMR, we need to follow the lead of our NATO allies and adopt the LMT MWS or HK417.

You hear that? Quick! Run, its the WTO sending their stealth helicopters full of cloned FEMA ninjas to take you to Planet X. Hope you didn't get your flu shot or else they'll be able to track you.:TFH:

H2O MAN
06-14-2011, 7:01 AM
This post makes me want to sell my M1A and buy an AR10. :(



M110 replacement? (http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2514382#Post2514382)

bizarrocolin
06-14-2011, 12:30 PM
Submit this to myth busters (they love gun themed shows), they can answer on national television, and then a thread like this will be in every forum.

Pryde
06-14-2011, 4:43 PM
M110 replacement? (http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2514382#Post2514382)

Not all AR10s are built the same, there are plenty out there that have better accuracy for less cost (the Larue OBR and LMT MWS come to mind). They are replacing the M110 because the KAC gun sucks, not because the AR10 sucks. I myself would prefer a bolt gun for precision accuracy.

Do trust and believe, when the solicitation comes through, a M14 will not be anywhere near consideration.

H2O MAN
06-14-2011, 6:25 PM
They are replacing the M110 because the KAC gun sucks

Wow!

You spoke the truth :eek:

Be careful, I can think of a few forums that will ban you for telling the truth... ask me how I know.





.

H2O MAN
06-16-2011, 7:04 AM
Build Your Own copy of the TACOM M14 EBR-RI (http://sageebr.com/2010/08/02/build-your-own--tacom-m14-ebrri.aspx)

Pryde
06-16-2011, 10:31 AM
Build Your Own copy of the TACOM M14 EBR-RI (http://sageebr.com/2010/08/02/build-your-own--tacom-m14-ebrri.aspx)

What was the point of this post? Other than for you to try and sell more SEI parts?

Juice5610
06-16-2011, 1:26 PM
LOL @ this thread...

RugerNo1
06-16-2011, 1:33 PM
LOL @ this thread...

Ditto, always entertaining! :rofl:

Legasat
06-16-2011, 2:01 PM
With all this name calling, you guys are just beggin "Head Janitor" to come along and sweep you all under carpet.

I recommend caution. I'm just sayin....

Juice5610
06-16-2011, 2:55 PM
With all this name calling, you guys are just beggin "Head Janitor" to come along and sweep you all under carpet.

I recommend caution. I'm just sayin....

Yea you guys!... OP why is it you feel the need to make a thread like this at least once a year and proceed to post pic after pic? Not just on this forum but across all boards? I'm just curious is all.

Sgt. Slaughter
06-16-2011, 2:55 PM
LOL Pryde....this is getting awesome! It is strange that a guy from GA post pics of non CA compliant weapons in CALguns.

H2O MAN
06-16-2011, 4:15 PM
LOL @ Pryde...

What was the point of this post? Other than for you to try and sell more SEI parts?

How many SEI parts were listed?

http://sageebr.com/2010/08/02/build-your-own--tacom-m14-ebrri.aspx














Zero Zip Nada None.




.

H2O MAN
06-16-2011, 4:19 PM
Yea you guys!... OP why is it you feel the need to make a thread like this at least once a year and proceed to post pic after pic? Not just on this forum but across all boards? I'm just curious is all.

Why do you read each and every one of them?

H2O MAN
06-16-2011, 4:35 PM
To all the haters, why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?

Sgt. Slaughter
06-16-2011, 6:01 PM
This is beautiful!

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=6&t=329552&page=2

H2O MAN
06-16-2011, 6:24 PM
This is beautiful!



There are several ignorant folks in this thread and that thread
guilty of participating in a dog pile and you've joined them.

http://targetfocustraining.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/gangfight41.jpg

Code7inOaktown
06-16-2011, 8:44 PM
To all the haters, why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?

The proper response is "crap."

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

Juice5610
06-16-2011, 10:10 PM
Why do you read each and every one of them?

Because you bring the laughs clown!

http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=6&f=6&t=322525

Lol

Peter W Bush
06-17-2011, 1:04 AM
What was the point of this post? Other than for you to try and sell more SEI parts?

Gentlemen, I think we might be drifting way off topic.

This thread concerns the TACOM M14EBR-RI, it's accuracy, and nothing else.

.

Jeez, Pryde, why can't you stay on topic. :rolleyes:




I think someone needs some serious help...

H2O MAN
06-17-2011, 4:18 AM
Because you bring the laughs clown!


Lol

You laugh at a true stories about our troops... that's real nice of you - it appears that you are the clown

H2O MAN
06-17-2011, 4:19 AM
The proper response is "crap."



Correct :)

H2O MAN
06-17-2011, 4:43 AM
More fun

http://www.ak47.net/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=6&t=310342&page=1

... more

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=6&t=321740




.

H2O MAN
06-17-2011, 4:44 AM
http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx70/M1AZIP/IMG_3218.jpg

The strange thing about the cover picture is that they show a MK14 Mod 0.

Juice5610
06-17-2011, 6:26 AM
You laugh at a true stories about our troops... that's real nice of you - it appears that you are the clown

You are delusional. I'm out of here before I say something that I shouldnt say. Because of the moderators not because of you. Your a real pice of work. Enjoy your neverland peter pan.

H2O MAN
06-17-2011, 9:03 AM
You are delusional.

Nice projection cupcake.

Pryde
06-17-2011, 10:06 AM
Nice projection cupcake.

Do you ever stop to think that maybe the reason why everyone dislikes you and why you get banned from every forum is because of........ You?

You wear out your welcome everywhere you go with your childish antics, bragging, and name calling. One forum could be a fluke, but there is something really wrong when you have been banned from lightfighter, m4carbine, arfcom, and snipershide.

Instead of taking responsibility for your actions, you blame it on "haters" and people "stalking you". If that's not delusion, I don't know what is.

H2O MAN
06-17-2011, 10:50 AM
Poor pitiful pathetic Pryde, you come across as a mole for the anti-gun crowd.

Do your so-called friends know that you are an informant working against them?

H2O MAN
06-17-2011, 11:03 AM
What was the point of this post?

The point of that particular post was to list the individual items/parts needed to build a civilian clone of the TACOM M14EBR-RI.

It's a shame that you continue to miss the point...

Pryde
06-17-2011, 11:24 AM
Poor pitiful pathetic Pryde, you come across as a mole for the anti-gun crowd.

Do your so-called friends know that you are an informant working against them?

Wow, just wow.....

So now I'm out to dismantle the RKBA cause one gun at a time, starting with the M14. Brilliant work detective.

Hoop
06-17-2011, 12:56 PM
Do you ever stop to think that maybe the reason why everyone dislikes you and why you get banned from every forum is because of........ You?

You wear out your welcome everywhere you go with your childish antics, bragging, and name calling. One forum could be a fluke, but there is something really wrong when you have been banned from lightfighter, m4carbine, arfcom, and snipershide.


Pretty sure Calguns will be next on that list if this thread keeps going as well as it has been.........

H2O MAN
06-17-2011, 1:20 PM
Pretty sure Calguns should add Pryde to their list of the banned for being the disruptive element he is.

ivanimal
06-17-2011, 2:08 PM
What grade are you guys in? Put each other on the ignore list and move on if you start up in other threads I will ban you both.