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View Full Version : long range .308 rifle - M14, AR10 or SCAR?


Texas Boy
05-29-2011, 3:15 AM
I'd like to build up a scoped rifle for long range shooting in .308. Primary use will be competitive target shooting out to 1000' yards. I know most people go with bolt guns here, but that's not my thing, I want a semi. So here are my thoughts:

The first gun I ever owned was a mini-14, so I feel very comfortable with the M14 platform. The Fulton Armory EBR series looks kinda funky, but it does appear to solve the stock bedding issues and would certainly be something unique in my collection. Anyone owed one? How did they perform?

The AR platform is of course the ultimate lego gun, and I could always mill my own lower for a 308 AR (just finished an AR15 lower BTW. Great project! Now I get to try anodizing...but that's another story). This path would prob have the most flexibility and might be the most accurate gun..? At least I'd have plenty of options to swap parts and find what works for me.

FNH makes a SCAR MK20 "sniper support rifle" with a adjustable stock, long rail, heavy barrel, etc. The SCAR 17LB appears to be the closest thing you can get off the shelf, which is prob ok (20" heavy barrel). My kid has an airsoft ACR made by Magpul (lol...yep, they are making airsoft too), and the ergonomics on that gun are fantastic. The ACR and the SCAR appear (ergonomically) very similar, so I'm assuming I'd like the SCAR. The MK20 is claimed to be 1/4" MOA, but since we can't buy those, anyone know how accurate the SCAR 17LB is?

Here is my score card thus far:

EBR:

Pro - M14 platform. much easier to operate.
Con - mag lock? funky looking. Limited ability to customize, tune?

.308 AR

Pro - widest selection of parts/options
con - it's an AR.

SCAR 17LB (or MK20 if available)

Pro - great ergonomics, good looks. M14 simplicity on a modern AR type platform.
con - very limited options for barrels, triggers, stocks, etc. but is this likely to change?

So which would you choose and why? Since the AR will be a "premium" build, any price difference among the 3 will be in the noise level. Primary concerns would be accuracy, ergonomics, and reliability/durability.

Thanks.

jcaoloveshine
05-29-2011, 3:42 AM
most bang outta your buck with the AR, most accurate 308 platform of the 3. it will cost you close to 2.5-3K for m1a to get what a 1.5K AR can shoot.

you are looking for precision 308, therefore i recommend AR10.

now if you wanted a flexible and accurate (1.5MOA) battle rifle with detach mags, m1a is king. of course you can get a supermatch and throw it in a JAE stock, but thats gonna run you about 2.7-2.8K when it's all said and done.

docsmileyface
05-29-2011, 3:43 AM
The EBR has crap ergonomics and is a front heavy pig. You'd be better off just keeping it in a traditional style stock.

SCAR 17 long barrel is not available to the public, you get a 16" option and thats it.

If long range accuracy was your concern I'd probably go with the AR-10 type rifle, though SF teams and the such are reporting great things about the 16" SCAR H from Afghanistan. Farthest I've got to shoot mine is 100yds so I can't really tell you how well it shoots far out.

Cyc Wid It
05-29-2011, 3:46 AM
If/when I venture into semi .308 it will be the LMT MWS.

JohnnyRooks
05-29-2011, 5:47 AM
SCAR17

semperfidelis354
05-29-2011, 6:12 AM
The military is fielding the m110 SASS (semi automatic sniper system) built on what looks like an AR 10 style platform. It looks awesome to me that's what I would do.

louscamaro91
05-29-2011, 6:52 AM
Can't beat the AR-10 platform.
Go with a 20" inch barreled AR-10.

Knife Edge
05-29-2011, 6:59 AM
I'd like to build up a scoped rifle for long range shooting in .308. Primary use will be competitive target shooting out to 1000' yards. I know most people go with bolt guns here, but that's not my thing, I want a semi. So here are my thoughts:

The first gun I ever owned was a mini-14, so I feel very comfortable with the M14 platform. The Fulton Armory EBR series looks kinda funky, but it does appear to solve the stock bedding issues and would certainly be something unique in my collection. Anyone owed one? How did they perform?

The AR platform is of course the ultimate lego gun, and I could always mill my own lower for a 308 AR (just finished an AR15 lower BTW. Great project! Now I get to try anodizing...but that's another story). This path would prob have the most flexibility and might be the most accurate gun..? At least I'd have plenty of options to swap parts and find what works for me.

FNH makes a SCAR MK20 "sniper support rifle" with a adjustable stock, long rail, heavy barrel, etc. The SCAR 17LB appears to be the closest thing you can get off the shelf, which is prob ok (20" heavy barrel). My kid has an airsoft ACR made by Magpul (lol...yep, they are making airsoft too), and the ergonomics on that gun are fantastic. The ACR and the SCAR appear (ergonomically) very similar, so I'm assuming I'd like the SCAR. The MK20 is claimed to be 1/4" MOA, but since we can't buy those, anyone know how accurate the SCAR 17LB is?

Here is my score card thus far:

EBR:

Pro - M14 platform. much easier to operate.
Con - mag lock? funky looking. Limited ability to customize, tune?

.308 AR

Pro - widest selection of parts/options
con - it's an AR.

SCAR 17LB (or MK20 if available)

Pro - great ergonomics, good looks. M14 simplicity on a modern AR type platform.
con - very limited options for barrels, triggers, stocks, etc. but is this likely to change?

So which would you choose and why? Since the AR will be a "premium" build, any price difference among the 3 will be in the noise level. Primary concerns would be accuracy, ergonomics, and reliability/durability.

Thanks.

Larue OBR 18". Take mine to 950 yards regularly with unbelievable accuracy. I've "heard" the SCAR 17s is not as accurate as the 16s, haven't verified. My 16s however shoots 3/4" groups so I would expect the 17s is the same. The SCAR will need an aftermarket trigger (another $400) as the stock one is heavy.

a1fabweld
05-29-2011, 8:48 AM
If you're going to be shooting competatively, you'll end up with a bolt gun. You want a semi auto now & it sounds & looks cool, but you're not going to be competative against guys with bolt guns shooting 1K matches.

Hoop
05-29-2011, 9:27 AM
If you want an AR I would say build up a 16 or 20" with a barrel profile that doesn't weigh a ton (check out the profiles of black hole barrels, they weigh maybe half pound or so more than a comparable 223 barrel, tops). It won't be a 1000 yard competition gun but odds are you'll still be able to plink away at that range with either length barrel & you'll have something you can "take hunting" etc too (as long as you don't weigh down the rifle with unnecessary crap).

Dhena81
05-29-2011, 9:36 AM
Get all three :eek:

Don29palms
05-29-2011, 9:39 AM
If you're going to be shooting competatively, you'll end up with a bolt gun. You want a semi auto now & it sounds & looks cool, but you're not going to be competative against guys with bolt guns shooting 1K matches.

I agree with this!

Teletiger7
05-29-2011, 9:47 AM
If, accuracy, repeatability, ease of cleaning, and increased velocity with your own handloads is your main concern, bolt gun. If speed of follow up shoots is your main concern semi-auto. Although, I've seen good shooters work a bolt and get on target for accurate shots just as quickly as if they had used a semi-auto

yoitsbruce
05-29-2011, 10:28 AM
i am also looking to acquire a .308 semi auto. ar10 is cool but there are some that look identical to the ar15, with charging handle and a forward assist. scars look real nice but i leaning more towards reaper by lwrc. its gonna take me some time to save up for it.

five.five-six
05-29-2011, 10:40 AM
If you're going to be shooting competatively, you'll end up with a bolt gun. You want a semi auto now & it sounds & looks cool, but you're not going to be competative against guys with bolt guns shooting 1K matches.


I agree with this, i have a 24" bbl ar10 that shoots well under 1/2 inch, and I am shooting 5 gal buckets out past 700 yards with it... to reach out much further I am looking at upgrading to a rem 700, I just can't load the kinds of velocities i want in a gas gun

kozumasbullitt
05-29-2011, 10:42 AM
I would go with an AR-10 but to the guy that quoted $1500 for one that wil get you good results at 1000 yards, can you post a link or clarify (I price a good 10 around $2500)? I own a Scar 17 and I would not want to use it as a 1000 yard rifle, the MK20 would be the way to go but I guess it's a couple years out for civilians.

five.five-six
05-29-2011, 10:46 AM
you could build one for $1500 less optics... just figure on spending at least $1 on a scope for every yard you want to shoot

kozumasbullitt
05-29-2011, 10:53 AM
you could build one for $1500 less optics... just figure on spending at least $1 on a scope for every yard you want to shoot

I have a NF scope waiting but when I price out the AR10/LR308 I am way out of budget.

five.five-six
05-29-2011, 11:00 AM
that NF will work just fine on a rem 700, I would trade, but AR10s are just so freaking cool :party:

Don29palms
05-29-2011, 11:09 AM
I would like to see a build list with prices for a quality and accurate long range 308 AR for $1500. All the ones I've priced out come out at $2500 or more without optics. Nothing wrong with that if that's what you want. Everytime I've built a gun I've gone over what I originally budgeted. It's the same with cars or motorcycles or any of my other toys. My latest project is a cutom built Remmy 700 .308. It's being built for me. My budget to get a .308 bolt gun was $1500. I ended up spending almost twice that.

Hoop
05-29-2011, 11:18 AM
I would like to see a build list with prices for a quality and accurate long range 308 AR for $1500.

You can get something that works for about 1500, 2k for quality, as far as being "long range" that is debatable.

Mega upper + lower = 600
Lilja 20" barrel = 455
Adjustable JP gas block = 69
LPK = 60
Timney trigger = 200

As long as you don't go crazy with custom handguards, stocks etc you can be under 2k with the above and those are nice parts. The one I am cooking up right now will have a fulton barrel, DPMS upper/TM lower, Magpul stock, RRA 2 stage trigger, fulton gas block, I've been horsetrading for parts & only buying when stuff is on sale so it looks like it will be around 1400 bucks.

kozumasbullitt
05-29-2011, 11:22 AM
that NF will work just fine on a rem 700, I would trade, but AR10s are just so freaking cool :party:

I have a R700 being put together by Spartan precision as we speak so I wanted to see if I could put together an AR10 for $1500 or less so I can toss my extra scope on it.

kozumasbullitt
05-29-2011, 11:22 AM
I would like to see a build list with prices for a quality and accurate long range 308 AR for $1500. All the ones I've priced out come out at $2500 or more without optics. Nothing wrong with that if that's what you want. Everytime I've built a gun I've gone over what I originally budgeted. It's the same with cars or motorcycles or any of my other toys. My latest project is a cutom built Remmy 700 .308. It's being built for me. My budget to get a .308 bolt gun was $1500. I ended up spending almost twice that.

i come up with right around $2500 as well.

five.five-six
05-29-2011, 11:28 AM
armalite 20" (t) upper $950
aeroprecision lower $220
RRA NM LPK $200
A2 butstock $50

that leaves a few bucks for a mag and a few AR10 LPK parts and you have a sub MOA gun

cfusionpm
05-29-2011, 11:35 AM
I've heard nothing but good things about the M1A/M14 rifles with JAE stocks in regards to long range. Very accurate, excellent erganomics, slick styling, lots of options. I'm considering picking one up for my Scout.

http://www.jallenenterprises.com/images/customer_large/22.jpg

http://www.jallenenterprises.com/

Milspec714
05-29-2011, 12:06 PM
The military is fielding the m110 SASS (semi automatic sniper system) built on what looks like an AR 10 style platform. It looks awesome to me that's what I would do.

Yup gotta love these... especially working on them and shooting them with the can... :patriot:

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p24/milspec714/m11118.jpg

H2O MAN
05-29-2011, 1:11 PM
Crazy Horse M14 EBR-RINM-SEI-SASS

http://i895.photobucket.com/albums/ac160/The_H2O_MAN/MK14EBR-RI/M14 EBR-RINM-SEI/IMG_5185.jpg

popeye4
05-29-2011, 2:12 PM
What competition are you planning on entering? Many long range games have specific rules regarding acceptable rifles. For instance, in Palma you'd be shooting a bolt gun with iron sights, with most likely a 30" barrel. Look at the game you want to get into, then select the proper tool. My guess is that none of the rifles you listed is the best choice, you will need to get a bolt gun to be competitive. Are you just going to be shooting against yourself, or do you want a chance to win the match? OTOH, if you are just going out in the desert to shoot informally, get whatever you want.

It might be hard to get an M14-type rifle to shoot out to 1000 yds. 168 gr SMK won't get there, so you have to use either the 155 gr. Palma or the 175 gr SMK (or equivalents). Gas system limitations won't let you use heavier bullets.

Now, if you want a bolt gun that looks exotic, get a Tubb 2000. They are only about $5k (plus sights)......

semperfidelis354
05-29-2011, 3:30 PM
Yup gotta love these... especially working on them and shooting them with the can... :patriot:

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p24/milspec714/m11118.jpg


^that's kick a$* how is the accuracy?

Hoop
05-29-2011, 3:42 PM
Crazy Horse M14 EBR-RINM-SEI-SASS


Range report? Also what kind of handloads does it like the best?

Milspec714
05-29-2011, 4:22 PM
^that's kick a$* how is the accuracy?

oh unbelievable.... both noisy and quite...
:33::drool5::84:

brando
05-29-2011, 4:34 PM
If you're going to be shooting competatively, you'll end up with a bolt gun. You want a semi auto now & it sounds & looks cool, but you're not going to be competative against guys with bolt guns shooting 1K matches.

What he said...

a1fabweld
05-29-2011, 6:45 PM
If you really are serious about shooting long range & actually being competative, go to a long range match & see what rifles the guys there are shooting. The guys that shoot well.

Just like anything, talk to the people that have been there & done that to tell you what works & learn from their mistakes. It's cheaper that way & less frustrating.

AR .308's look cool, but there is a place for them. Mainly with the casual shooter.

Knife Edge
05-29-2011, 6:46 PM
I am completely convinced that precision gas guns like the OBR have put the bolt action rifle to bed. An 18" OBR will make hits on 8" plates all day at 1000. It comes down to the shooter, but I've convinced more than one bolt gun jokey at Pala that AR-10 style precision rifles are as accurate and a whole lot quicker on the follow up. Really think this one. Lots of die hard bolt gun fans.

Usually the look from someone who borrows it is disbelief. Then comes a whole slew of questions.

RugerNo1
05-29-2011, 6:59 PM
I am completely convinced that precision gas guns like the OBR have put the bolt action rifle to bed.

If that was the case, would they not be dominating at every single rifle match that allowed the use of a semiauto?

I see it is your opinion and your are free to have one. But, a semi has more moving parts than a bolt action and cannot take the same pressures; therefore, accuracy and maximum range is sacrificed.

That being said, I am a firm believer in focusing on the shooter over the firearm. Just because a rifle can reach a certain distance does not mean that any shooter taking up the rifle can.

phish
05-29-2011, 7:35 PM
I am completely convinced that precision gas guns like the OBR have put the bolt action rifle to bed. An 18" OBR will make hits on 8" plates all day at 1000. It comes down to the shooter, but I've convinced more than one bolt gun jokey at Pala that AR-10 style precision rifles are as accurate and a whole lot quicker on the follow up. Really think this one. Lots of die hard bolt gun fans.

Usually the look from someone who borrows it is disbelief. Then comes a whole slew of questions.

wts Barnard actioned rifle, pst with fair offer

:p

a1fabweld
05-29-2011, 7:56 PM
I am completely convinced that precision gas guns like the OBR have put the bolt action rifle to bed. An 18" OBR will make hits on 8" plates all day at 1000. It comes down to the shooter, but I've convinced more than one bolt gun jokey at Pala that AR-10 style precision rifles are as accurate and a whole lot quicker on the follow up. Really think this one. Lots of die hard bolt gun fans.

Usually the look from someone who borrows it is disbelief. Then comes a whole slew of questions.

:smilielol5::rofl2::laugh::rofl: Thanks man! I haven't had a laugh like that in a long time!

kozumasbullitt
05-29-2011, 8:08 PM
I am completely convinced that precision gas guns like the OBR have put the bolt action rifle to bed. An 18" OBR will make hits on 8" plates all day at 1000. It comes down to the shooter, but I've convinced more than one bolt gun jokey at Pala that AR-10 style precision rifles are as accurate and a whole lot quicker on the follow up. Really think this one. Lots of die hard bolt gun fans.

Usually the look from someone who borrows it is disbelief. Then comes a whole slew of questions.

What ammo are you using? Like others have said before, there is limits to a shorter barrel and gas system. I will take a quality bolt any day over an AR10 in competition and the top guys in competition feel the same way.

PS- how are you confirming hits? 1000 yards is a long way and sound is quite muffled and delayed off of steel, without seeing holes in paper you can be hearing others hits.

Mr_Monkeywrench
05-29-2011, 9:49 PM
That being said, I am a firm believer in focusing on the shooter over the firearm. Just because a rifle can reach a certain distance does not mean that any shooter taking up the rifle can.

Couldnt :iagree: more!! This is such an underrated topic.

Milspec714
05-29-2011, 10:33 PM
Exactly.....
I know the rifle can shoot to 800 yards can the shooter... I know the shooter can shoot to 800 yards can the rifle...

yeah what he said...:iagree:

Hoop
05-30-2011, 9:42 AM
An 18" OBR will make hits on 8" plates all day at 1000.

Maybe with the right shooter, ammunition and conditions. Realistically I'd think 1:3 hits, tops.

popeye4
05-30-2011, 1:27 PM
Maybe with the right shooter, ammunition and conditions. Realistically I'd think 1:3 hits, tops.

The big challenge at 1000 yds is reading the wind.....

popeye4
05-30-2011, 1:34 PM
David Tubb won one of his many championships with an SR-25, I think mainly to show it could be done. It was an interesting project, just understanding what he had to do to get there. Of course, the National Match course of fire only goes to 600 yards, and once he did that, he put away the SR-25 and developed his Tubb 2000. Remember, this is in sanctioned competition, with published scores against the best shooters in the land, not at some unknown desert range shooting at pie plates.

So, somehow, I don't think that bolt guns have gone the way of the dinosaur quite yet.....

bwiese
05-30-2011, 1:34 PM
Get an 308 AR. (Note that I didn't say AR10, which refers to the Armalite design - the other 308 AR designs are not really AR10s.

I personally like the Armalite AR10 because that 308AR design has been out there the longest in the highest volumes, and it comes with a chrome-lined barrel. It's capable of great accuracy with match ammo - even without a freefloat barrel.

The piston rifles won't be as accurate (or take a lot of babying to get up there...)

Knife Edge
05-30-2011, 3:08 PM
What ammo are you using? Like others have said before, there is limits to a shorter barrel and gas system. I will take a quality bolt any day over an AR10 in competition and the top guys in competition feel the same way.

PS- how are you confirming hits? 1000 yards is a long way and sound is quite muffled and delayed off of steel, without seeing holes in paper you can be hearing others hits.

In the context of shooting with a bench rest then I guess the bolt may have an advantage. My experience comes from about a years worth shooting off of a mat, prone with a bipod.

Today I took the AR-15 out to Pala as I needed to sight in a new Larue SPR mount that has 10 MOA built into it; the OBR stayed home. Pleased with the first session I wanted to verify the 220y zero after a break with a cold bore. At the start of the second session I conducted a cold bore shot to 220 yards (approx) and landed a 69g SMK dead into the bullseye. The second round landed close enough to touch the first round (Shoot-n-C sticker) and round three entered the same hole as the first.

The rifle:
Bushmaster Varminter Upper 24" 1:9
Timey Trigger
Leupold VX3 6.5-20X (shot at 14X) Varminter Reticle
Magpul PRS
Blackhills 69g SMKHP moly coated
Total rounds since build approx 800

If there is one thing I cannot stand on a forum it would have to be bad information. I made a post early and talked about 900+ yards when today I verified the range at 890 yards (must by dyslexic), my mistake. Nevertheless my OBR with Federal 168g SMK makes very consistent hits at that range and if the distance was a bit further I'd substitute for the 175g bullet.

I believe the quality of barrels between bolt and gas guns is at a point where the difference is indistinguishable. Pertaining to moving parts, and please correct me if I am wrong, but both guns have the same number of moving parts when the round fires. I have been told that the bullet traveling is long gone from the barrel by the time the bolt on an AR even unlocks, let alone cycles. If this is the case, then the only advantage a bolt gun would have is the ability to shoot hotter loads (not factory and not within the ability of most to do safely), its inherent heavier weight and the typical bench rests from which I see so many fired from. My assumptions from this thread is that the OP wants a rifle that he can shoot factory ammo (not hot loads) in .308 out of a firearm likely supported by a bipod (the only way I shoot and am familiar with) at ranges suitable to a .308, 1100 yards and in.

Either my Varminter or OBR is a half MOA (maybe even sub-half MOA locked into a bench rest) firearm off of a bipod. Is a highly modified .308 bolt gun off a bipod really going to be any more accurate? Where do you differentiate between the skill of the shooter over the quality of the firearm? As far as verifying my shots on steel at 900 yards, its nearly a 1.5 second flight time and the OBR does a fantastic job of absorbing the energy considering it weighs 14 pounds; I watch the round hit the steel target. A gray mist of downward deflected lead and a thud a few seconds after that is a hit. In fact the targets are painted orange so a spotting scope or high powered scope can easily pick up the gray stain from a hit.

Maybe in a bench rest competition the bolt gun has an advantage (surely in any caliber over .308), IMHO and from what I have seen in the past year, the bolt guns hold nothing on the gas guns off a bipod.

Others think so as well; google AR-10 or OBR replacing bolt guns and start reading away. I am not the only one with this line of thinking.

http://www.sniperinfo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1047

Maybe with the right shooter, ammunition and conditions. Realistically I'd think 1:3 hits, tops.

Zero wind of course, others have written up such range reports with OBRs.

kozumasbullitt
05-30-2011, 4:23 PM
In the context of shooting with a bench rest then I guess the bolt may have an advantage. My experience comes from about a years worth shooting off of a mat, prone with a bipod.

Today I took the AR-15 out to Pala as I needed to sight in a new Larue SPR mount that has 10 MOA built into it; the OBR stayed home. Pleased with the first session I wanted to verify the 220y zero after a break with a cold bore. At the start of the second session I conducted a cold bore shot to 220 yards (approx) and landed a 69g SMK dead into the bullseye. The second round landed close enough to touch the first round (Shoot-n-C sticker) and round three entered the same hole as the first.

The rifle:
Bushmaster Varminter Upper 24" 1:9
Timey Trigger
Leupold VX3 6.5-20X (shot at 14X) Varminter Reticle
Magpul PRS
Blackhills 69g SMKHP moly coated
Total rounds since build approx 800

If there is one thing I cannot stand on a forum it would have to be bad information. I made a post early and talked about 900+ yards when today I verified the range at 890 yards (must by dyslexic), my mistake. Nevertheless my OBR with Federal 168g SMK makes very consistent hits at that range and if the distance was a bit further I'd substitute for the 175g bullet.

I believe the quality of barrels between bolt and gas guns is at a point where the difference is indistinguishable. Pertaining to moving parts, and please correct me if I am wrong, but both guns have the same number of moving parts when the round fires. I have been told that the bullet traveling is long gone from the barrel by the time the bolt on an AR even unlocks, let alone cycles. If this is the case, then the only advantage a bolt gun would have is the ability to shoot hotter loads (not factory and not within the ability of most to do safely), its inherent heavier weight and the typical bench rests from which I see so many fired from. My assumptions from this thread is that the OP wants a rifle that he can shoot factory ammo (not hot loads) in .308 out of a firearm likely supported by a bipod (the only way I shoot and am familiar with) at ranges suitable to a .308, 1100 yards and in.

Either my Varminter or OBR is a half MOA (maybe even sub-half MOA locked into a bench rest) firearm off of a bipod. Is a highly modified .308 bolt gun off a bipod really going to be any more accurate? Where do you differentiate between the skill of the shooter over the quality of the firearm? As far as verifying my shots on steel at 900 yards, its nearly a 1.5 second flight time and the OBR does a fantastic job of absorbing the energy considering it weighs 14 pounds; I watch the round hit the steel target. A gray mist of downward deflected lead and a thud a few seconds after that is a hit. In fact the targets are painted orange so a spotting scope or high powered scope can easily pick up the gray stain from a hit.

Maybe in a bench rest competition the bolt gun has an advantage (surely in any caliber over .308), IMHO and from what I have seen in the past year, the bolt guns hold nothing on the gas guns off a bipod.

Others think so as well; google AR-10 or OBR replacing bolt guns and start reading away. I am not the only one with this line of thinking.

http://www.sniperinfo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1047



Zero wind of course, others have written up such range reports with OBRs.

Your argument is well argued but I do not agree with a few things.

1) Most AR10s I see use factory barrels aside from the rare GAP builds but most serious bolt guys use high end barrels, armalite/DPMS vs Bartlien in no competition.

2) you are comparing an 18" OBR to what most bolts guys would be using 24"-26" barrels shooting 1000 yards

3) The semi auto has way more going on when you pull the trigger compared to a bolt.

Knife Edge
05-30-2011, 5:09 PM
Your argument is well argued but I do not agree with a few things.

1) Most AR10s I see use factory barrels aside from the rare GAP builds but most serious bolt guys use high end barrels, armalite/DPMS vs Bartlien in no competition.

2) you are comparing an 18" OBR to what most bolts guys would be using 24"-26" barrels shooting 1000 yards

3) The semi auto has way more going on when you pull the trigger compared to a bolt.

1) How can you compare an AR-10 to something that has a match grade barrel. Why not an AR-10 vs a field grade R700? How about a 20" OBR with a LW50 barrel vs one of your mentioned barrels in 24"?

2) I don't believe a longer barrel is that much more accurate. A higher velocity for sure, also more susceptible to barrel whip.

3) The question is, is the bullet still in the gun when the gas gun unlocks and cycles? If not then there would be no influence on accuracy other than harmonics of the gun overall.

How about a bedded stock vs. a free floating barrel? I really don't know.

RugerNo1
05-30-2011, 6:06 PM
Here is a couple thoughts that just came to mind.

A semi has a more sloppy (relatively) chamber, to ease extraction, which could really affect how the casing releases the projectile which would affect accuracy.

The key to precision is uniformity. Uniformity is easier to control in a bolt action versus a semi.

ex: the neck tension is usually light in a bolt action and using light tension in a semi (due to the inertia of the bullet in the case during the loading operation) will change your seating depth enough to change the level of precision in the group.

This is just me thinking. My brain may be misfiring...

a1fabweld
05-30-2011, 6:13 PM
Knife edge, please take your semi auto to the closest 1K match near you. Shoot the match, then post your results. I'd love to hear the bolt gun guys crying a river when you give them the big smackdown with your AR type rig! I suspect Surgeon & GAP will be closing their doors shortly after!:smilielol5:

Knife Edge
05-30-2011, 7:17 PM
Knife edge, please take your semi auto to the closest 1K match near you. Shoot the match, then post your results. I'd love to hear the bolt gun guys crying a river when you give them the big smackdown with your AR type rig! I suspect Surgeon & GAP will be closing their doors shortly after!:smilielol5:

Actually can't wait till the day! However, it will have to be something prone. I don't believe in the concept of bolting a gun to a table with 40x and shooting artillery; it's just not my style. I like the concept of being able to hike a rifle in somewhere and shoot with minimal support. Something that requires a 40 pound contraption to hit 1000 meter steel isn't sport to me. Its becomes too mechanical at that point, again IMHO.

For the OP, I'd get an AR. It's practical in that you can set it up to shoot quickly inside 50 yards and slam steels at 900, something a bolt gun won't do well. The 2010 International sniper championship was won with a set of OBRs, good enough for them and I'm VERY happy with what mine has done so far; very promising going forward. Lastly SWAT teams across the country are handing in their R700s for semi-automatics, how could it be ;)

Theres some good info in this thread, glad we've been able to keep such a polar topic sensible.

A1fabweld, you have the best avatar on this entire thread, hilarious!


I

9-12
05-30-2011, 7:42 PM
Knife edge, please take your semi auto to the closest 1K match near you. Shoot the match, then post your results. I'd love to hear the bolt gun guys crying a river when you give them the big smackdown with your AR type rig! I suspect Surgeon & GAP will be closing their doors shortly after!:smilielol5:X2.

9-12
05-30-2011, 7:46 PM
Actually can't wait till the day! However, it will have to be something prone. I don't believe in the concept of bolting a gun to a table with 40x and shooting artillery; it's just not my style. I like the concept of being able to hike a rifle in somewhere and shoot with minimal support. Something that requires a 40 pound contraption to hit 1000 meter steel isn't sport to me. Its becomes too mechanical at that point, again IMHO.

For the OP, I'd get an AR. It's practical in that you can set it up to shoot quickly inside 50 yards and slam steels at 900, something a bolt gun won't do well. The 2010 International sniper championship was won with a set of OBRs, good enough for them and I'm VERY happy with what mine has done so far; very promising going forward. Lastly SWAT teams across the country are handing in their R700s for semi-automatics, how could it be ;)

Theres some good info in this thread, glad we've been able to keep such a polar topic sensible.

A1fabweld, you have the best avatar on this entire thread, hilarious!


I
You edited your post...you said you were "working up to it"...but what with breaking 8" plates at 1K yds "all day long" with a semi auto-anything, you should be able to walk in and clean sweep just about any match you go to.
I'm just sayin...

bob7122
05-30-2011, 7:53 PM
if you have the means get the scar

9-12
05-30-2011, 7:54 PM
1) How can you compare an AR-10 to something that has a match grade barrel. Why not an AR-10 vs a field grade R700? How about a 20" OBR with a LW50 barrel vs one of your mentioned barrels in 24"?

2) I don't believe a longer barrel is that much more accurate. A higher velocity for sure, also more susceptible to barrel whip.

3) The question is, is the bullet still in the gun when the gas gun unlocks and cycles? If not then there would be no influence on accuracy other than harmonics of the gun overall.

How about a bedded stock vs. a free floating barrel? I really don't know.A longer barrel isn't necessarily any more accurate, but with more velocity comes less margin for error.

On your 3rd comment...the AR has three recoils, and is one of the reasons they're more difficult to shoot precision groups with than a bolt gun. One of the necessities for shooting an AR accurately is follow through, and maintaining the trigger squeeze after the shot until the cycles are complete. I know when I learned this my groups improved dramatically.

motorwerks
05-30-2011, 8:01 PM
I'm close to $1500.00 into my .308 chambered AR and I still need a trigger BAD!!!! I have just a warmed over stock DPMS trigger for now. Soon enough I'll be replacing it with ether another JP, Timney, an AR gold, or something along those lines. It shoots flawlessly right now but will be MUCH, MUCH more accurate once I get the trigger in. I'll report on the accuracy once that's done.

a1fabweld
05-30-2011, 8:10 PM
Actually can't wait till the day! However, it will have to be something prone. I don't believe in the concept of bolting a gun to a table with 40x and shooting artillery; it's just not my style. I like the concept of being able to hike a rifle in somewhere and shoot with minimal support. Something that requires a 40 pound contraption to hit 1000 meter steel isn't sport to me. Its becomes too mechanical at that point, again IMHO.

For the OP, I'd get an AR. It's practical in that you can set it up to shoot quickly inside 50 yards and slam steels at 900, something a bolt gun won't do well. The 2010 International sniper championship was won with a set of OBRs, good enough for them and I'm VERY happy with what mine has done so far; very promising going forward. Lastly SWAT teams across the country are handing in their R700s for semi-automatics, how could it be ;)

Theres some good info in this thread, glad we've been able to keep such a polar topic sensible.

A1fabweld, you have the best avatar on this entire thread, hilarious!


I

SWAT shooters rarely shoot past 100 yards so trading in their bolt guns doesn't prove that S.A.'s are superior to B.A.'s in the accuracy dept. Could it be that they lack the training to make consistent 1 shot kills & they need faster follow up shots? Hmmm? I hope to shoot with you at the Sac Valley 1K match someday. It's prone & positional (standing, kneeling, sitting, prone unsupported) so you should feel right at home. I would love to get an education on semi's.

I recall a guy recently who brought a 18" heavy barrel, tight chambered .308 bolt gun to the match & using hot loads ran out of steam somewhere between 800-900 yds. I can't imagine the pressure loss through a gas system helping matters.
Plus the fact that you're limited to how hot you can load in a semi auto.

BTW, whats your load combo for your gas gun? Muslim kitty wants to know!:D

nanoc
05-30-2011, 8:15 PM
Actually can't wait till the day! However, it will have to be something prone. I don't believe in the concept of bolting a gun to a table with 40x and shooting artillery; it's just not my style. I like the concept of being able to hike a rifle in somewhere and shoot with minimal support. Something that requires a 40 pound contraption to hit 1000 meter steel isn't sport to me. Its becomes too mechanical at that point, again IMHO.

For the OP, I'd get an AR. It's practical in that you can set it up to shoot quickly inside 50 yards and slam steels at 900, something a bolt gun won't do well. The 2010 International sniper championship was won with a set of OBRs, good enough for them and I'm VERY happy with what mine has done so far; very promising going forward. Lastly SWAT teams across the country are handing in their R700s for semi-automatics, how could it be ;)

Theres some good info in this thread, glad we've been able to keep such a polar topic sensible.

A1fabweld, you have the best avatar on this entire thread, hilarious!


I

More info please i want a swat rem700 maybe its like does Oakland glocks that ended up on calguns.

kozumasbullitt
05-30-2011, 8:22 PM
When is the last time someone heard of SWAT taking a 1000 yard shot?

brando
05-30-2011, 8:26 PM
Whether you chose a bolt gun or a semi-auto should depend first and foremost on application. What are you intending to use it for? This is the main reason why .mil snipers prefer access to both platforms. For precision accuracy, especially at distance, it's difficult to beat a bolt gun for the simple reason of uniformity of mechanics. For rapid follow-up shots, you can't beat a semi-auto.

Sure, anyone can walk rounds on a target - talk to any M2 gunner out there. But if your purpose is to make every shot count, then a bolt gun is the way to go. If you are in a competition that requires rapid engagements of varying distances (ie 100-800yards) then a semi-auto would have the advantage of quick corrections and follow-up shots. This is precisely why it was so much faster to run a varying distance COF with a semi-auto using hold overs vs a bolt gun dialing in each range - and hence the need for a semi-auto in sniper circles when the big MOUT game in the Sandbox started taking place.

Ultimately, for the civilian shooter, it's probably going to come down to what you want to shoot, regardless of whether it's best for its intended role. My opinion is that if you want a semi-auto, then get one. Personally, I think the SCARs are solid, though I dislike how short the handguards are. There's so many different .308 ARs now so there's no definitive way to categorize them (some are accurate but unreliable, and vice versa). The M14-based platforms, from my experience, are inherently less accurate unless you put a LOT of money in them, but supremely reliable.

That's about it.

Flouncer
05-30-2011, 8:41 PM
David Tubb won one of his many championships with an SR-25,

He also won a championship with a Rem700 action and a 6.5x55 Swede. I believe it was a silhouette shoot.

There is only one David Tubb.

All I can say about a Gas gun beating a bolt in target shooting is it may happen once, but if it was a money game, your money, you would lose your house, car, dog, shirt off your back every single day, every single match, every single time. To say different is simply :grouphug:

Come on out, prove us wrong.

bomb_on_bus
05-30-2011, 8:51 PM
^that's kick a$* how is the accuracy?

Accuracy.......meh.

Reliability................. nope.

US Army looking for a replacement for the M110 your bet your sweet A*$#%!

bomb_on_bus
05-30-2011, 9:22 PM
For what you are looking for you best bet is an AR10 platform .308. Hands down better options that can better suit your needs.

The SCAR 16 that is being fielded is good but could be a whole lot better so FNH redesigned the platform with a 20" barrel and a longer railed upper to afford more optics real estate.

The M14 has a lot of headaches and to get a good platform that can keep up with a decent AR10 your looking at spending twice as much in some instances just to be able to keep up with an AR10. And the newer stocks that are all tacticooled out are heavier then all get out and rattle like crazy. So with all that going on tossing a scope atop that sort of platform just isnt worth it. But then again people are lining up to spend upwards of 5k for a whitehorse or the like.

And to be frank the only true AR10 platform is from Armalite the rest are designed afterwards or the other option is the DPMS pattern .308. There are dozens of companies that offer models for each platform and both are great platforms.

The barrel would be your best starting point. Lilja, Rock Creek, Obermyer, Kreiger, Shilen, and a few others I cant remember right now make great barrels for the .308 AR platform and all offer various barrel lengths. You can get out to 1k with an 18" barrel but how reliable will it be out of a semi depends on a lot of things. Ammo would be an area of great importance. Weight of the bullet, powder charge, powder burn, etc. thats geared towards your gun can help get you a bit farther than the factory loads that pretty much are designed with some sort of blanket coverage as far as shooting platforms go. Twist rate, rifling, and what not also will help to get you out to the farther distances as well.

The 155gr scenar has a flatter flight pattern and is a good choice out that far but anything over say 175gr can be good for those distances as well. I have seen lots of good shooting with the m118 loads as long as the person behind the gun is doing their part.

Your best bet would be to figure out what you want to do with your rifle and figure out which platform will best serve your needs. Then get some decent factory ammo to get an idea of how well it shoots. Then reload for the rifle to get the best performance out of it. And that can be pretty much said for any platform you where asking about. But with the AR10 setup you would have more options to choose from.

If you have the opprotunity try and get behind all 3 platforms and choose from there.

popeye4
05-30-2011, 11:16 PM
He also won a championship with a Rem700 action and a 6.5x55 Swede. I believe it was a silhouette shoot.

There is only one David Tubb.

All I can say about a Gas gun beating a bolt in target shooting is it may happen once, but if it was a money game, your money, you would lose your house, car, dog, shirt off your back every single day, every single match, every single time. To say different is simply :grouphug:

Come on out, prove us wrong.

Yes, he shot the silhouette game before he got into highpower, I believe. He also had that funky "chin gun".... My point was that it took David Tubb to get a gas gun to beat the bolts at highpower across the course, and that only goes to 600 yds. He didn't stick with it once he proved his point.

One significant area that a bolt gun will mop the floor with a gas gun is lock time. The time from trigger pull to boom is much shorter in a bolt gun, even if everything else is equal. That makes a huge difference.

Pthfndr
05-30-2011, 11:24 PM
I am completely convinced that precision gas guns like the OBR have put the bolt action rifle to bed. An 18" OBR will make hits on 8" plates all day at 1000.

If that were true then you (or a competent shooter) could make a ton of money by being the only person in the world to win every single Palma match they entered. The X ring on a 1000 yard NRA target is 10 inches.

kozumasbullitt
05-30-2011, 11:33 PM
FYI, Larue states the OBR to have a maximum effective range of 800 meters (874 yards) so using it as a 1000 yard gun is pushing it beyond what it was intended for.

http://larueosr.com/lt762-18-obr762rifle.aspx

Connor P Price
05-30-2011, 11:35 PM
Knife Edge, where are you located? I'm sure there is somebody who can refer you to a nearby long range match that you can go try out. You'll see quite quickly why every precision rifle match is dominated by bolt actions. Most wont have a single gas gun, and the few that do are either very short range, or the guy with the gas gun just doesn't do very well at all.

A gas gun in a 1000 yard precision rifle match is kinda like a hot woman at a star trek convention, or an honest politician. Its possible, but not likely, and it certainly never works out well.

Hoop
05-31-2011, 8:45 AM
If that were true then you (or a competent shooter) could make a ton of money by being the only person in the world to win every single Palma match they entered. The X ring on a 1000 yard NRA target is 10 inches.

I'm building a 16" 308 AR, when it's done I'll try to bring it out there with you guys (sac valley). I know I'll be odd man out and the crusty old benchrest geezers will laugh at me but I'll do it anyways :) Oh yeah it's getting a tank brake too.

Also tubb's sr25 was a titted out 260 remington with a long barrel so not the same as a short, factory barreled 308 carbine at all.

Hoop
05-31-2011, 8:55 AM
Lastly SWAT teams across the country are handing in their R700s for semi-automatics, how could it be ;)


Not really, they're just getting them because it's the hip thing to do ("the military has them so we want 'em too" type of thinking). That and some departments have so much money to spend that they are just searching for new toys to blow it on.

Juice5610
05-31-2011, 9:05 AM
Actually can't wait till the day! However, it will have to be something prone. I don't believe in the concept of bolting a gun to a table with 40x and shooting artillery; it's just not my style. I like the concept of being able to hike a rifle in somewhere and shoot with minimal support.

Come out to a Caprc match at Angeles shooting range. We shoot prone off a bipod sometimes a pack (depends on the course of fire). We also shoot seated standing and kneeling with the use of a sling. Its only a 600 yard range so a semi is more then capable. I look forward to seeing you on the line. It should be a piece of cake for you.

Knife Edge
05-31-2011, 11:23 AM
Come out to a Caprc match at Angeles shooting range. We shoot prone off a bipod sometimes a pack (depends on the course of fire). We also shoot seated standing and kneeling with the use of a sling. Its only a 600 yard range so a semi is more then capable. I look forward to seeing you on the line. It should be a piece of cake for you.

Sounds like it.



Another good read with some excellent information in the following thread. It's tedious at times but well worth the read. Someone took the OBR out to 1600m...(not sure how) :

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2358899&page=1

I can attest to the fact that everything effects how a gas gun lands a round downrange, I do agree they are more difficult to shoot straight.

Jpach
05-31-2011, 11:29 AM
I'm not sure how being "an AR" is a con......

Go .308 AR. They will be the most precise, there is more aftermarket support, and ITS AN AR!

HUTCH 7.62
05-31-2011, 7:04 PM
Accuracy.......meh.

Reliability................. nope.

US Army looking for a replacement for the M110 your bet your sweet A*$#%!

Those who know perfer a FAL over most everything

Fjold
05-31-2011, 7:29 PM
Any 18"-20" gas gun in 308 Win would be hard pressed to make it to 1,000 yards unless you're shooting at a high elevation. I've seen 20" bolt guns not stay supersonic loaded pretty hot and pasted quite a few oblong holes in target in the 1,000 yard pits.

I'm building a gas gun right now to shoot out to 1,000 yards but it will have a 24" barrel chambered in 260 Rem.

Come out and shoot with us every third Sunday at Cuyama, we shoot either 800,900 and 1,000 yards or a 2x 1,000 yard match every month.

Texas Boy
05-31-2011, 11:44 PM
Thanks everyone - lots of great replies. I agree that for a gas gun, the AR seems to be the way to go. I'll also concede, that for long range competition, a bolt gun is a much easier way to go. I still believe that with some very careful work, it is possible to make a gas gun that is probably better than most people can shoot, but perhaps not as good as the best bolt guns.

In any case, the closest long range (>200m) to me is Sac Valley. It looks like gas guns are not permitted at many of their "tactical" matches. No idea how often I'd manage to make it up there, but I like the idea of working as a 2 man team, shooting prone from a bipod, and engaging targets at various distances (200-1000 yards). While I fail to see why you couldn't built an AR platform that would make a respectable showing in that game, it appears gas guns are not allowed for logistical safety reasons (easier to verify open bolt, etc).

Guess I need to get up to Sac Valley and check it out before I plop down cash. Looks like I might wind up building 2 guns...an AR and a bolt (something about that big AR with a long barrel and a scope...even if I can't use it much). Digging a little further it looks like .260rem and 6.5x47 are more popular in this game than .308....Lots to learn.

POLICESTATE
05-31-2011, 11:48 PM
For .308 I have to go with the M14/M1A platform. Just feels right :)

RugerNo1
06-01-2011, 10:26 AM
...(something about that big AR with a long barrel and a scope...even if I can't use it much). Digging a little further it looks like .260rem and 6.5x47 are more popular in this game than .308....Lots to learn.

Not trying to talk you out of anything, but why build a very expensive rifle without the intent to use the heck out of it?

Additionally, the 6.5mm offerings (.260 Rem., 6.5x47 Lap., 6.5 Creed., etc.) are all very popular as well as 6mm offerings (.243 Win., 6xc, 6x47 Lap., etc.). The key reason why they are being used more: Ballistic edge. They can fly further at greater speeds with bullets that have a higher ballistic coefficient (less drop, less wind drift).

But, just because there is a growing trend does not mean that a good shooter with a .308 Win. cannot hold their own.

Here is the stats at the recent NorCal TBRC 2011 Match at Sac Valley:
Caliber Stats:

308win - 20%
284win - 2%
260rem - 32%
243win - 17%
6.5x47 - 6%
6.5cm - 9%
Other - 15%



It does merit a mention that the Top 10 shooters used .243 Win.s, 6XCs, and .260 Rem.s, but that does not mean a thing and discredits the ability of the shooters.

The ability of the shooter is what matters. I would say that even though these "laser" cartiridges definately have an advantage, a .308 will teach you way more about proper technique and ballistics because of its disadvantage. You have to be a more mindful shooter when using the .308 when considering wind, drop, etc.

But, this is your money we are talking about, so do with it what will make you happy. Besides, it is not like it will be your last firearms purchase.:p

StraightShooter
06-13-2011, 11:10 PM
Knife Edge, if you shoot at Pala then Camp Pendleton is probably close to you too. Shoot a palma match there on an f-class target and you will realize what precision shooting is all about. Saying you can hit an 8" plate at 1000 yards all day long just goes to show you have no idea what youre talking about. The x ring on an f-class target is 5" and the 10 ring is 10". With that said you claim that a perfect score is a walk in the park. Ill be glad to stand there in the target pits and watch your rounds keyhole through the target. By the way, what are the dimensions of that 890 yard target at Pala? Its freaking HUGE!!


To the OP: gas guns have their place but you will be disappointed if you try to compete with one in a long range match. Inside 600 yards you would probably be ok. If gas guns are what you like and you want to compete, most matches are under 600 yards anyways.

H2O MAN
06-14-2011, 6:55 AM
For .308 I have to go with the M14/M1A platform. Just feels right :)

/\ THIS /\

Pthfndr
06-14-2011, 9:51 PM
In any case, the closest long range (>200m) to me is Sac Valley. It looks like gas guns are not permitted at many of their "tactical" matches........... While I fail to see why you couldn't built an AR platform that would make a respectable showing in that game, it appears gas guns are not allowed for logistical safety reasons (easier to verify open bolt, etc).

Not true. We only do not allow them at our bi monthly steel match. For safety reasons. Movement is involved and people with gas guns can't seem to remember to put on their safety when moving with a round chambered.

Gas guns ARE allowed at our monthly long range match. But if you're rounds aren't making it to the target or are going in sideways we pull the shooter off the line (happens even with bolt guns sometimes)

Guess I need to get up to Sac Valley and check it out before I plop down cash. Looks like I might wind up building 2 guns...an AR and a bolt (something about that big AR with a long barrel and a scope...even if I can't use it much). Digging a little further it looks like .260rem and 6.5x47 are more popular in this game than .308....Lots to learn.

Come on Saturday 7/2 and watch our practice and ask guys questions about their gear, or come watch our match on Sunday 7/3.

Hoop
06-14-2011, 10:08 PM
Not true. We only do not allow them at our bi monthly steel match.

I thought guys shot garands / m1a's down there in the steel matches?

Pthfndr
06-14-2011, 10:13 PM
I thought guys shot garands / m1a's down there in the steel matches?

For the military silhouette match on the 3rd Saturday of every month, yes.

Not for the NCPPRC Tactical bolt rifle steel match that takes place every other month.

AlliedArmory
06-14-2011, 11:03 PM
AR308

Knife Edge
06-14-2011, 11:21 PM
Knife Edge, if you shoot at Pala then Camp Pendleton is probably close to you too. Shoot a palma match there on an f-class target and you will realize what precision shooting is all about. Saying you can hit an 8" plate at 1000 yards all day long just goes to show you have no idea what youre talking about. The x ring on an f-class target is 5" and the 10 ring is 10". With that said you claim that a perfect score is a walk in the park. Ill be glad to stand there in the target pits and watch your rounds keyhole through the target. By the way, what are the dimensions of that 890 yard target at Pala? Its freaking HUGE!!

I'm not sure how familiar you are with Pala other than the range photos on the website. One of the rules during rec shoots is to only shoot the orange targets. The white targets are reserved for matches and from my understanding, black powder or soft nosed bullets only (I've been told by an RO that they shoot the 887y square target with black powder). I'm not sure if the orange swingers are always present, they were on this particular day and after flipping through a few photos I seem to have found a pretty good shot. Fortunately it was with a 12 mega pix camera and a good enough lens that it can be blown up to clearly show the orange steel swingers in question. The photo has what appears to be two man silhouettes which I'm guessing are 18" across and the left swinger is likely a 12". I clearly remember ringing that circular swinger 5 for 5 times, the shot group was the inner half to 3/4 of the diameter. It took awhile to get the DOPE down, I am new to the gun, new to Ballistic FTE, using muzzle velocities I found off sniper's hide and had to play with the BC (ended up with G1 .462 but now in question). Lastly my range finder (old hand down from my father in law) was generating ranges drastically different from what I pulled up off the Pala website and Google Earth after I got home. My range finder is over-estimating distance according to the posted distances at Pala (yes, it's selected to yards), that's probably where the 1,000 yard comment came from (it was showing a hair under).

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=102447&stc=1&d=1308119400

We'll see this Friday, I may have to retract some statements, hoping that is not the case now that I am more familiar with the gun and shooting AR's. My only concern is that the BC I was using in Ballistic FTE came from the ranges my Leica was generating :mad: That's going to take time to sort out a new BC, may accept the default value under "Loads" to start with.

As far as post about holding the trigger down through the cycle, great gouge. I'll pay more attention to it next time. I imagine I already do as a carry over from shooting my R700's and generally as a good technique for trigger reset (instead of riding the trigger all the way forward). This may explain the fliers I had last year with the .223 Varminter, something I had attributed to leaning forcefully on the cheekpad.

Overall I do agree that bolt guns open the window quite a bit, especially when you step it up to higher calibers like 300 Win Mag. But from the accuracy I am seeing, the cycling has not been an issue which leaves velocity as the denominator in the equation.

Here is some data from Mark Larue pertaining to two very common loads and the various barrel lengthed OBR's. What's interesting is the nearly identical velocity between 168 and 175 out of a 20" barrel and how little of an improvement it is over the 168 out of an 18" barrel. ( I get that the 175 has a higher BC and stays super critical longer).

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=102448&stc=1&d=1308119615

Lastly, some info I pulled off wikipedia pertaining to the M40 with 24" barrel.
Granted it's Lake City ammo vs. Federal GMM, both 175 however. Looks like the 24" bolt gun and 18" OBR are throwing nearly similar numbers. Is it possible that the polygonal rifling of the OBR is that much more efficient?

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=102449&stc=1&d=1308119797

So if the accuracy is .5 or better on both and the velocity is nearly identical?
One gun:
Weighs less
Can engage multiple targets without topping off
Can be equipped with an angled RDS and be suitable for fast acquisition close in

Droppin Deuces
06-15-2011, 12:03 AM
We'll see this Friday...

And I am your witness!:p

I'm glad I don't have a gun that will put a legitimate hit on targets out that far. I messed around with it last time I was there(16" AR in .223) and it was like launching rounds out of a mortar I had it dialed up so far. I was getting hits, but nothing honest. 600 is about max for my gun to hit consistently.

F8ality
06-15-2011, 12:09 AM
I went with this....I haven't tried 1k yet but I'm pretty confident that if I couldnt hit it that I could rain lead down upon it....

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n100/titus7/bca12a2f-1.jpg

Hoop
06-15-2011, 7:29 AM
Looks like the 24" bolt gun and 18" OBR are throwing nearly similar numbers.


IIRC that 24" bolt gun velocity was measured at 75 yards and not the muzzle. So you're talking 2600-2650 at the muzzle probably.

SMGLee
06-15-2011, 10:40 AM
I have witness during a SCAR LRIP test, one of the NSWC chief was putting 8" group at 800 yards with a standard SCAR-H. that is impressive for a combat rifle. also led to the developement of the SCAR shroud.

You can't go wrong with the SCAR-H, accurate, it is definitely more modular than any of the M1A platform, more reliable than any of the AR308 platform, sans the LMT MWS nor the LaRue OBR which I have not see it in action over a long period.

Knife Edge
06-15-2011, 11:31 AM
I went with this....I haven't tried 1k yet but I'm pretty confident that if I couldnt hit it that I could rain lead down upon it....

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n100/titus7/bca12a2f-1.jpg

You'll hit it with that philosophy. :) Contractors in Kuwait were teaching us to hit a conex box at 800 with an M249, thats 5.56! Granted tracers help.

Knife Edge
06-15-2011, 11:33 AM
IIRC that 24" bolt gun velocity was measured at 75 yards and not the muzzle. So you're talking 2600-2650 at the muzzle probably.

Seems reasonable. The gain from 20" to 24" seems marginal.

BAGunner
06-15-2011, 11:53 AM
This:
http://www.fnhusa.com/support/images/dynamic/m/FNM0199mb.png

H2O MAN
06-15-2011, 12:55 PM
You can't go wrong with the SCAR-H

I'm on the waiting list at my local gun/fun shop.

docsmileyface
06-15-2011, 1:18 PM
H20 Man, I can't wait for you to get a SCAR - then you'll be going around telling everyone how awesome it is and everyone will finally be able to agree with you on something.

H2O MAN
06-15-2011, 2:10 PM
H20 Man, I can't wait for you to get a SCAR - then you'll be going around telling everyone how awesome it is and everyone will finally be able to agree with you on something.



I have been in contact with my friend at KAC about the SR25 EMC and I'm on the list for a SCAR H.

In your opinion, is one more 'awesome' than the other?