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View Full Version : I feel oppressed, I need a silencer attorney


frankm
05-27-2011, 11:00 PM
No I haven't tried to buy one. But I have a bit of tinnitus. I have a medical need for a silencer. Any takers?!

Seriously, like you can "actually" silence a big bore rifle enough to be a threat...

Yeah, I know, silly post, but I'm only half-kidding. I'd really like to buy one.

Joe
05-27-2011, 11:02 PM
Silencers should be encouraged for sure.

ke6guj
05-27-2011, 11:04 PM
seriously, when the time is right, I expect to see a lawsuit just like that.

I've had ear surgery to replace the bones in my ear with titanium and need to protect my hearing as much as possible. I usually try to double up on the protection, but as a result of the surgery, I get naucious when I put in ear plugs, to the point where it can make me thrrow up. I wonder if myear doc would be willing to write a suppressor recommendation when the time is right :D

frankm
05-27-2011, 11:06 PM
It's a silly law. If we really wanted them we could buy them out of state or just make them.

KWA-S
05-27-2011, 11:26 PM
It's a silly law. If we really wanted them we could buy them out of state or just make them.

What do you mean? That law prevents gangsters and drug dealers from assassinating children.

Silencers will likely be the first NFA item to fall, but its still a little ways away. Not too much is gonna happen before CCW, the AWB, and std-caps, in that order.

blazeaglory
05-27-2011, 11:28 PM
just use a potato wrapped in electric tape

MASTERLAB
05-28-2011, 12:06 AM
Sorry for the thread jack, but
I read somthing on another forum about using a trust or corp to get a silencer in other states, I was curious, does this work under CA law, my gut says no, but if we could...

ke6guj
05-28-2011, 12:10 AM
no, a trust won't help you get a suppressor in CA. You can, however, get an AOW in CA with a trust.

llamatrnr
05-28-2011, 1:01 AM
My opinion, and only my opinion, is that silencers should be used when shooting mimes

pitchbaby
05-28-2011, 1:52 AM
My opinion, and only my opinion, is that silencers should be used when shooting mimes

This point is "mute" as when shooting mime's you should be using your invisible gun... therefore the silencer cannot be seen anyway.

NorCalDustin
05-28-2011, 2:20 AM
seriously, when the time is right, I expect to see a lawsuit just like that.

I've had ear surgery to replace the bones in my ear with titanium and need to protect my hearing as much as possible. I usually try to double up on the protection, but as a result of the surgery, I get naucious when I put in ear plugs, to the point where it can make me thrrow up. I wonder if myear doc would be willing to write a suppressor recommendation when the time is right :D
I tend to get very bad headaches...

:)

stix213
05-28-2011, 4:09 AM
Americans should have a right to protect their hearing.

choprzrul
05-28-2011, 4:33 AM
I don't know about a right to protect hearing, but those with medical conditions should not be separated from their 2A civil rights.

.

geeknow
05-28-2011, 5:41 AM
interesting line of thinking. I would tend to agree with the poster above who thinks that the 'order' will be ccw, std-cap mags, then silencers. I also agree with the Euro outlook on them which is 'use them by God. quiet guns make for good neighbors.'

cdtx2001
05-28-2011, 7:04 AM
It sure would be great to go to the range and not need massive hearing protection. Hell, mufflers are standard on cars, why not guns?

Unfortunately, I can see some judge saying some BS like "If you don't like the noise, find another hobby".

Wernher von Browning
05-28-2011, 8:04 AM
My opinion, and only my opinion, is that silencers should be used when shooting mimes

How can you say such a cruel, insensitive thing?

Everybody knows a mime is a terrible thing to waste.

cdtx2001
05-28-2011, 8:44 AM
My opinion, and only my opinion, is that silencers should be used when shooting mimes


How can you say such a cruel, insensitive thing?

Everybody knows a mime is a terrible thing to waste.


The nice thing is when they die, you can't hear them scream.

aileron
05-28-2011, 9:10 AM
I'm deaf in one ear and have ringing in the other, silencers are definitely something I think would be a smart thing to have. I have to protect my hearing so I use ear plugs plus ear muffs. Its a must. I don't have a fall back.

I expect eventually someone is going to start a lawsuit, considering the original law was trying to stop poachers... but I'm sure its way off.

707electrician
05-28-2011, 9:26 AM
I would love to be able to use a suppressor but I don't think I will ever see a time when I will be able to in CA. I just don't think its a high enough priority.

PolishMike
05-28-2011, 9:37 AM
Its not impossible.
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-qqSn9J__frw/TVRrFrgStdI/AAAAAAAAAPs/dWpFCN_xG84/s912/IMG_20110210_144454.jpg

just saying...

RobG
05-28-2011, 9:49 AM
If a judge can say we have UOC as an alternative to CCW, I cannot see the hearing angle coming close to working when you can easily where muffs, plugs, etc.

CSACANNONEER
05-28-2011, 10:04 AM
This point is "mute" as when shooting mime's you should be using your invisible gun... therefore the silencer cannot be seen anyway.

According to an ex higher up in CA DOJ, as long as the surpressor (no surpressor completely silences a gun shot) also acts like a flash hider, it will render the shooter invisible too.

707electrician
05-28-2011, 10:04 AM
Its not impossible.
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-qqSn9J__frw/TVRrFrgStdI/AAAAAAAAAPs/dWpFCN_xG84/s912/IMG_20110210_144454.jpg

just saying...

Picture fail:confused:

CSACANNONEER
05-28-2011, 10:05 AM
Picture fail:confused:

What fail? Those are firearms ( surpressors are legally considered "firearms") which the poster legally owns in California.

yellowfin
05-28-2011, 3:16 PM
To get civil standing to sue, I guess you'd need to file a Form 4 and get denied and CA Dangerous Weapons permit app also filed.

Quser.619
05-28-2011, 3:32 PM
I believe that several Sheriff & Police departments are looking to get them in order to prevent an increase in disability claims for officer hearing loss from duty use. I think OC Sheriffs are looking at that as a solution as healthcare & forced retirement costs increase. Though it could've just been gun-shop FUD

vintagearms
05-28-2011, 3:42 PM
Americans should have a right to protect their hearing.

Its for the children ! :)

pgg
05-28-2011, 3:47 PM
To get civil standing to sue, I guess you'd need to file a Form 4 and get denied and CA Dangerous Weapons permit app also filed.

The application (http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/FD030DWApp.pdf) doesn't appear to cover suppressors.

Assault weapon / 50 BMG permit
MG permit
Destructive device permit
SBS/SBR permit
MG license

Quiet
05-28-2011, 4:13 PM
In CA...
Only FFL/SOT manufacturers/dealers and Gov/Mil/LE agencies can own/possess "silencers".


Penal Code 12500
The term "silencer" as used in this chapter means any device or attachment of any kind designed, used, or intended for use in silencing, diminishing, or muffling the report of a firearm. The term "silencer" also includes any combination of parts, designed or redesigned, and intended for use in assembling a silencer or fabricating a silencer and any part intended only for use in such assembly or fabrication.

Penal Code 12501
Section 12520 shall not apply to, or affect, any of the following:
(a) The sale to, purchase by, or possession of silencers by agencies listed in Section 830.1, or the military or naval forces of this state or of the United States for use in the discharge of their official duties.
(b) The possession of silencers by regular, salaried, full-time peace officers who are employed by an agency listed in Section 830.1, or by the military or naval forces of this state or of the United States when on duty and when the use of silencers is authorized by the agency and is within the course and scope of their duties.
(c) The manufacture, possession, transportation, or sale or other transfer of silencers to an entity described in subdivision (a) by dealers or manufacturers registered under Chapter 53 (commencing with Section 5801) of Title 26 of the United States Code, and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.

Penal Code 12520
Any person, firm, or corporation who within this state possesses a silencer is guilty of a felony and upon conviction thereof shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison or by a fine not to exceed ten thousand dollars ($10,000) or by both.

RomanDad
05-28-2011, 4:13 PM
Its for the children ! :)

Hey! Thats my line (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=5153134&postcount=31)!

asme
05-28-2011, 4:14 PM
Ahhh, you're feeling oppressed when you want to feel suppressed.

Interesting.

:)

vintagearms
05-28-2011, 4:19 PM
Hey! Thats my line (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=5153134&postcount=31)!

LOL. I used it because the anti's are always spouting about ban this, ban that. Its for the children. Well, those same kids your trying to save, need their hearing saved as well. ;)

Thank for letting me borrow your line. :D

dominic
05-28-2011, 4:21 PM
Its not that far to Arizona or Nevada where civilian ownership is allowed.

http://www.awcsystech.com/map_new.gif

sfbadger
05-28-2011, 4:57 PM
England, which has some of the most repressive gun laws in the Free World, readily allows those lucky enough to still be able to own guns, easy access to suppressors for their rifles and shotguns. The English laugh at the fact that we, in Free States in the USA, have relatively loose gun laws but make it so difficult, if not impossible, to own suppressors. It's insane that we can't have them here!

707electrician
05-28-2011, 5:24 PM
What fail? Those are firearms ( surpressors are legally considered "firearms") which the poster legally owns in California.

I couldn't see any picture before. How does he legally own suppressors in CA?

yellowfin
05-28-2011, 5:26 PM
I believe that several Sheriff & Police departments are looking to get them in order to prevent an increase in disability claims for officer hearing loss from duty use. A couple of LE sales reps from two major silencer companies have told me in person precisely that.

AJAX22
05-28-2011, 5:47 PM
You can get an 07/02 for 'r&d' purposes and then ca doesn't get to say anything about your suppressors.

Texas Boy
05-28-2011, 6:19 PM
You can get an 07/02 for 'r&d' purposes and then ca doesn't get to say anything about your suppressors.

So how hard is it to get an 07/02 for 'r&d' purposes? Do you need to have a real company? Or can you form a 'hobby biz' and still qualify? Can you run this biz out of your garage? What is the renewal period? I assume once the ffl goes then so do the toys.

Sent from my SGH-T959 using Tapatalk

sfbadger
05-28-2011, 6:41 PM
So how hard is it to get an 07/02 for 'r&d' purposes? Do you need to have a real company? Or can you form a 'hobby biz' and still qualify? Can you run this biz out of your garage? What is the renewal period? I assume once the ffl goes then so do the toys.

Sent from my SGH-T959 using Tapatalk

I believe you are required to have a storefront to posses a commercial FFL, which I believe an 07/02 is? Some counties "Grandfathered" some FFLs still running out of their house's but any new applicants must have a storefront.

CSACANNONEER
05-28-2011, 6:53 PM
I believe you are required to have a storefront to posses a commercial FFL, which I believe an 07/02 is? Some counties "Grandfathered" some FFLs still running out of their house's but any new applicants must have a storefront.

I know two 07s in socal, who have recently got them (07FFLs not surpressors) for home based bussinesses.

CSACANNONEER
05-28-2011, 6:57 PM
I couldn't see any picture before. How does he legally own suppressors in CA?

Gottcha on the "fail". I don't know why sometimes I can't see pics and then othertimes, I can. Anyway, did you notice who posted the picks? Why don't you go into his shop and ask him? There are more legal surpressors in Ca than the antis want to believe. In fact, I used to be invited to a private range when Surefire was coming to demo/test some of their units. Unfortunately, I always had to work those days.

sfbadger
05-28-2011, 7:00 PM
I know two 07s in socal, who have recently got them (07FFLs not surpressors) for home based bussinesses.

I stand corrected.

707electrician
05-28-2011, 7:25 PM
Gottcha on the "fail". I don't know why sometimes I can't see pics and then othertimes, I can. Anyway, did you notice who posted the picks? Why don't you go into his shop and ask him? There are more legal surpressors in Ca than the antis want to believe. In fact, I used to be invited to a private range when Surefire was coming to demo/test some of their units. Unfortunately, I always had to work those days.

:confused:

yellowfin
05-28-2011, 7:35 PM
England, which has some of the most repressive gun laws in the Free WorldEngland isn't in the Free World anymore. Taxes, regulations, and denial of personal liberties and individual rights make it as bad or worse than many if not most autocracies and communist counties. Not an opinion but verifiable fact.

Texas Boy
05-28-2011, 9:47 PM
I know two 07s in socal, who have recently got them (07FFLs not surpressors) for home based bussinesses.


Hmmmmm.....I do have some machining equip...might just be time to start a home business with an 007 FFL. I assume the down side is the ATF can come inspect my home at any time if I do this? Correct? Other down sides?

Also, assuming you have an 07/02 and legally obtain a suppressor. Can you transport it? Use it at a public range? What restrictions (other than transfer, tax stamp, etc) would apply?

ke6guj
05-28-2011, 9:59 PM
here's the law for you.
CHAPTER 5. FIREARM DEVICES

ARTICLE 1. GENERAL PROVISIONS
12500. The term "silencer" as used in this chapter means any device or attachment of any kind designed, used, or intended for use in silencing, diminishing, or muffling the report of a firearm. The term "silencer" also includes any combination of parts, designed or redesigned, and intended for use in assembling a silencer or fabricating a silencer and any part intended only for use in such assembly or fabrication.
12501. Section 12520 shall not apply to, or affect, any of the following: (a) The sale to, purchase by, or possession of silencers by agencies listed in Section 830.1, or the military or naval forces of this state or of the United States for use in the discharge of their official duties. (b) The possession of silencers by regular, salaried, full-time peace officers who are employed by an agency listed in Section 830.1, or by the military or naval forces of this state or of the United States when on duty and when the use of silencers is authorized by the agency and is within the course and scope of their duties. (c) The manufacture, possession, transportation, or sale or other transfer of silencers to an entity described in subdivision (a) by dealers or manufacturers registered under Chapter 53 (commencing with Section 5801) of Title 26 of the United States Code, and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.

ARTICLE 2. UNLAWFUL POSSESSION OF FIREARM SILENCERS
12520. Any person, firm, or corporation who within this state possesses a silencer is guilty of a felony and upon conviction thereof shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison or by a fine not to exceed ten thousand dollars ($10,000) or by both.

hoffmang
05-28-2011, 10:02 PM
Sadly, there are far better courts to challenge such things in...

CA-9 is not the place to explain this first...

-Gene

frankm
05-28-2011, 11:21 PM
I defer to the master.

calixt0
05-29-2011, 4:45 PM
In CA...
Only FFL/SOT manufacturers/dealers and Gov/Mil/LE agencies can own/possess "silencers".


Penal Code 12500
The term "silencer" as used in this chapter means any device or attachment of any kind designed, used, or intended for use in silencing, diminishing, or muffling the report of a firearm. The term "silencer" also includes any combination of parts, designed or redesigned, and intended for use in assembling a silencer or fabricating a silencer and any part intended only for use in such assembly or fabrication.

Penal Code 12501
Section 12520 shall not apply to, or affect, any of the following:
(a) The sale to, purchase by, or possession of silencers by agencies listed in Section 830.1, or the military or naval forces of this state or of the United States for use in the discharge of their official duties.
(b) The possession of silencers by regular, salaried, full-time peace officers who are employed by an agency listed in Section 830.1, or by the military or naval forces of this state or of the United States when on duty and when the use of silencers is authorized by the agency and is within the course and scope of their duties.
(c) The manufacture, possession, transportation, or sale or other transfer of silencers to an entity described in subdivision (a) by dealers or manufacturers registered under Chapter 53 (commencing with Section 5801) of Title 26 of the United States Code, and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.

Penal Code 12520
Any person, firm, or corporation who within this state possesses a silencer is guilty of a felony and upon conviction thereof shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison or by a fine not to exceed ten thousand dollars ($10,000) or by both.

ok so my question is this. its fairly well known that the longer the barrel the less loud a given caliber is? so could they argue that buy having a 24" barrel on a .22 lr that you are effectively "silencing" the weapon since the noise is drastically deminished from another 18" barrel.

formerTexan
05-29-2011, 8:12 PM
With regards to ATF inspections of 07/02's, the ATF likes to visit those type of FFLs yearly. "Regular" FFLs have a target of at least one inspection every 3 years.

Don't forget ITAR if you're thinking of becoming a 07/02. I don't know if becoming a regular FFL, and then paying the SOT for being a Title II dealer (aka Class 3 dealer) would allow you to possess silencers in CA.

ke6guj
05-29-2011, 8:39 PM
I don't know if becoming a regular FFL, and then paying the SOT for being a Title II dealer (aka Class 3 dealer) would allow you to possess silencers in CA.

sure does.

formerTexan
05-30-2011, 10:53 AM
Cool, that is certainly a lot cheaper than becoming and maintaining a 07/02.

CHS
05-30-2011, 11:08 AM
In CA...
Only FFL/SOT manufacturers/dealers and Gov/Mil/LE agencies can own/possess "silencers".

Penal Code 12520
Any person, firm, or corporation who within this state possesses a silencer is guilty of a felony and upon conviction thereof shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison or by a fine not to exceed ten thousand dollars ($10,000) or by both.

It would be really cool to see if we could just do what Washington did and simply amend the law like this:


Penal Code 12520
Any person, firm, or corporation who within this state possesses a silencer is guilty of a felony and upon conviction thereof shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison or by a fine not to exceed ten thousand dollars ($10,000) or by both, unless possessed in accordance with Federal Law.

Basically, the same as our AOW law.

That's what Washington just did with a pretty anti-gun Governor too.

Right now the people in government can make the argument that there is a legal route for owning pretty much everything in CA EXCEPT for suppressors. There is a permit in CA for MG's, so theoretically you can still get one (even though they won't issue the permit), but there is NO way to get a suppressor in CA as a regular consumer, and the BATFE won't issue an FFL for personal acquisition of firearms.

sure does.

So you can become an 07/03 instead of an 07/02? Eeeenteresting.

ke6guj
05-30-2011, 11:16 AM
So you can become an 07/03 instead of an 07/02? Eeeenteresting.

Actually, I was talking about being an 01FFL/03SOT, which can own suppressors in CA. I dunno if you could actually become an 07/03, even if you could, there is not benefit to be an 07/03 vs. an 07/02.

CHS
05-30-2011, 9:00 PM
Actually, I was talking about being an 01FFL/03SOT, which can own suppressors in CA. I dunno if you could actually become an 07/03, even if you could, there is not benefit to be an 07/03 vs. an 07/02.

Putting aside the fact that you wouldn't be able to actually manufacture suppressors (except one or two after paying the $200 tax), wouldn't being an 07/03 be cheaper than an 07/02 and avoid the ITAR requirements?

I would love to be an 07/03. I like the idea of being able to manufacture title 1's and OWN title 2's like suppressors.

ke6guj
05-31-2011, 12:30 AM
Putting aside the fact that you wouldn't be able to actually manufacture suppressors (except one or two after paying the $200 tax), wouldn't being an 07/03 be cheaper than an 07/02 and avoid the ITAR requirements?
AFAIK, it is not the 02SOT that triggers ITAR but is actually the 07FFL that triggers it.

I would love to be an 07/03. I like the idea of being able to manufacture title 1's and OWN title 2's like suppressors.again, I'm not sure if you can do an 03SOT if you are an 07FF.
http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-5630-7.pdf

brando
05-31-2011, 1:22 AM
It's funny how here in New Zealand, suppressors are an afterthought and just considered being polite. No paperwork necessary, so I can walk into a hunting shop and by one over the counter.

sfbadger
05-31-2011, 1:30 AM
It's funny how here in New Zealand, suppressors are an afterthought and just considered being polite. No paperwork necessary, so I can walk into a hunting shop and by one over the counter.

See, that's what I'm talking about in England. Why are suppressors considered polite in some countries but nefarious in this state?

Answer: Because our government doesn't trust us! I hate living in CA!

yellowfin
05-31-2011, 2:14 PM
It isn't a lack of trust, it's distaste for good people.

brando
05-31-2011, 3:58 PM
See, that's what I'm talking about in England. Why are suppressors considered polite in some countries but nefarious in this state?

Answer: Because our government doesn't trust us! I hate living in CA!

The big difference I see is the level of per-capita violent crime.

JayBeeJay
06-01-2011, 1:11 AM
Can you apply for tax stamps or go the trust route in legal states with a seasonal ID? For an example would I be able to apply for a silencer tax stamp and keep it locked in a safe for use when I'm staying in my Las Vegas home?

gunn
06-01-2011, 10:29 AM
ok so my question is this. its fairly well known that the longer the barrel the less loud a given caliber is? so could they argue that buy having a 24" barrel on a .22 lr that you are effectively "silencing" the weapon since the noise is drastically deminished from another 18" barrel.

If you've thought of it, chances are someone else has as well.
Check out these products to supress the sound for a shotgun.


http://www.farmshow.com/issues/240601.asp
http://www.kebcollc.com/cart/store.php?crn=209&rn=596&action=show_detail


-g

joefreas
06-01-2011, 11:07 AM
That long barrel shotgun is hilarious. i would love to show up at the duck blind with one of those!
100537

Glock22Fan
06-01-2011, 12:52 PM
England, which has some of the most repressive gun laws in the Free World, readily allows those lucky enough to still be able to own guns, easy access to suppressors for their rifles and shotguns. The English laugh at the fact that we, in Free States in the USA, have relatively loose gun laws but make it so difficult, if not impossible, to own suppressors. It's insane that we can't have them here!

My rifle, while in England, had a suppressor (I was advised not to call it a silencer or it would not be allowed.) When I came over here, I got the import forms from the BATF and filled them all out for the rifle and suppressor. BATF gave me permission, in writing, to bring my suppressor to California with me, but then had conniptions when I queried it, as I had been (correctly) advised not to attempt this.

When I tried to present the paperwork to the customs guys at Newark, they couldn't be bothered to look at them, "A .22?" they said, "That's not a real gun."

IrishPirate
06-01-2011, 1:04 PM
Actually, I was talking about being an 01FFL/03SOT, which can own suppressors in CA. I dunno if you could actually become an 07/03, even if you could, there is not benefit to be an 07/03 vs. an 07/02.

pardon the ignorance...but what's the SOT?



and out of curiosity, is there a route a civilian would go to obtain permission from the DOJ to have a silencer? something without getting an FFL?

ke6guj
06-01-2011, 5:37 PM
pardon the ignorance...but what's the SOT?special occupational taxpayer.


and out of curiosity, is there a route a civilian would go to obtain permission from the DOJ to have a silencer? something without getting an FFL?not in CA. the only legal methods of ownership is for an LEA or the military to own t he silencer and then issue it to the LEO/.mil personal, OR, for an SOT to own it so that he can make sales to that LEA or .mil unit.

thats it, there is no CADOJ permit you can get to own a silencer.

yellowfin
06-01-2011, 7:11 PM
I gathered they call them moderators across the pond and elsewhere.