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RMTactical
05-27-2011, 9:58 AM
For those new to AR15's and wanting to know about Stag Arms.

http://www.ar15pro.net/2011/05/stag-arms-quality-review-great-value.html

blazeaglory
05-27-2011, 10:13 AM
you think if a person had every popular brand AR15 in front of them and closed their eyes and shot them one right after the other, that person could not tell one from the other? maybe so

RMTactical
05-27-2011, 10:16 AM
you think if a person had every popular brand AR15 in from of them and closed their eyes and shot them one right after the other, that person could not tell one from the other? maybe so

Depends on how many rounds they fire. Almost any brand of AR15 out there can be shot a couple hundred rounds with little to no problems.

It's after a couple hundred or a couple thousand and depending on the manner of care and use that problems may begin to manifest themselves due to low quality.

dieselpower
05-27-2011, 10:38 AM
and he calls that a "Stag Arms Quality Review - Great Value"?

he has 3 points in that and none deal with quality of Stag or the great value.

its just another Fancy website with empty words. It would suggest to a person to search for the "chart" he talks about which leads the unknowing person to erroneous information about Stags, Mil-specs, and the AR15.

blazeaglory
05-27-2011, 10:44 AM
kinda what i was thinking. nice post though but it sounds like fluff as the rest of the companies say.

what people would want to know, as said above, would be how the gun functions after a dirty 1000;)

RMTactical
05-27-2011, 10:46 AM
and he calls that a "Stag Arms Quality Review - Great Value"?

he has 3 points in that and none deal with quality of Stag or the great value.

its just another Fancy website with empty words. It would suggest to a person to search for the "chart" he talks about which leads the unknowing person to erroneous information about Stags, Mil-specs, and the AR15.

Actually, there is a link in the article that would lead a reader to see in more detail the things that make a high quality AR15.

RMTactical
05-27-2011, 10:48 AM
kinda what i was thinking. nice post though but it sounds like fluff as the rest of the companies say.

what people would want to know, as said above, would be how the gun functions after a dirty 1000;)

I mentioned that it ran over 1500 rounds without a cleaning.

luckystrike
05-27-2011, 10:55 AM
stag is awesome, if you ever have a problem their customer service is some of the best

blazeaglory
05-27-2011, 10:57 AM
I mentioned that it ran over 1500 rounds without a cleaning.


OOOH YEAH!:D

ive always liked stag as well

Fate
05-27-2011, 11:10 AM
Didn't take the Stag haterz long to find this one. LOL

FWIW, I've got a Stag that has run over 5k rounds without a stoppage with zero cleaning. In fact I have never had a failure of any kind with that rifle and I treat her badly.

But it's a Stag thread, so...

http://asset.soup.io/asset/0844/2177_e0b7.gif

dieselpower
05-27-2011, 11:30 AM
stag is awesome, if you ever have a problem their customer service is some of the best

Ok, But BCM, Colt, DD, Riflegear, CMMG, Vulcan, Hesse, JoeblowAr15s.com...all will too.

the devil is NOT in the details, its in the devil who explains the details.

The high end AR15 is built using solid Stainless Steel, with Unobtainuim coated pins, and solid Titanium coated springs...all other AR15s are crap cuz that is the only AR15 that will survive a 500lb bunker buster explosion.

BCM, Colt, LaRue...all crap and I can prove it. Take an welding torch and aim the flame at the hanguards..see it melts...= crap.

That is what the "chart" tells new people. It fools you into believing something that isnt true, then solves the problem by offering a Firearm that meets the imaginary "quality line".

This "review" doesn't even address a single QC point of Stag? the Stag LH ejection system suffers from a design flaw. There is some evidence that proves the LH jams more then a normal AR15...but whats the alternative? Is the QA and QA enough as is?

I have read as many, "my BCM is broke" threads as I have read, "My X is broke threads." Whats that say about QA and QC at BCM?

6 Years ago Stag didn't stake gas keys. So please tell me what their current QA/QC policy is?...anyone? anyone?

sorry..the website fails at what it says it wants to do. Its fancy, its nice...its empty of content that supports its claim.

elSquid
05-27-2011, 11:30 AM
But it's a Stag thread, so...


I thought it was a "let's use calguns to drive traffic to my website" thread?

-- Michael

RMTactical
05-27-2011, 11:33 AM
Ok, But BCM, Colt, DD, Riflegear, CMMG, Vulcan, Hesse, JoeblowAr15s.com...all will too.


Totally wrong.

6 Years ago Stag didn't stake gas keys. So please tell me what their current QA/QC policy is?...anyone? anyone?

They stake them, just not always properly. They staked them 6 years ago too, but just improperly just as now.

You have said nothing to support your claims. Your words are empty. Educate us please.

RMTactical
05-27-2011, 11:38 AM
I thought it was a "let's use calguns to drive traffic to my website" thread?

-- Michael

More like a FAQ. People ask about Stag Arms all the time. They want to know how they stack up vs the rest. They want to know if Stag is a good value or decent quality? They want to be educated.

Fate
05-27-2011, 11:50 AM
I thought it was a "let's use calguns to drive traffic to my website" thread?

-- Michael

Maybe. Didn't work on me though. I didn't follow the link. LOL

dieselpower
05-27-2011, 12:03 PM
Totally wrong.



They stake them, just not always properly. They staked them 6 years ago too, but just improperly just as now.

You have said nothing to support your claims. Your words are empty. Educate us please.

call them. Stag did not stake gas keys, which was the problem when Stag first came out. Six years is maybe too low, maybe it was 12...its a moot point because Colt didn't stake gas keys either.

and you are wrong TM9-1005-319-23 shows mil-spec staking...and guess what...most people dont like or think its good enough.

dont tempt me to flood you with items and technical info to support my claims...I will flood you with over 25 years of knowledge that unless you are a gunsmith and expert in the AR15 manufacture you have little chance to understand. search my past post on this subject.

RMTactical
05-27-2011, 12:08 PM
call them. Stag did not stake gas keys, which was the problem when Stag first came out. Six years is maybe too low, maybe it was 12...its a moot point because Colt didn't stake gas keys either.

and you are wrong TM9-1005-319-23 shows mil-spec staking...and guess what...most people dont like or think its good enough.

dont tempt me to flood you with items and technical info to support my claims...I will flood you with over 25 years of knowledge that unless you are a gunsmith and expert in the AR15 manufacture you have little chance to understand. search my past post on this subject.

Call them? I bought Stag BCG's more than 6 years ago. Never once have I seen one that was not attempted to have been staked, even if improperly. However, Stag didn't exist 12 years ago. So much for your vast knowledge about Stag.

dieselpower
05-27-2011, 12:20 PM
Call them? I bought Stag BCG's more than 6 years ago. Never once have I seen one that was not attempted to have been staked, even if improperly. However, Stag didn't exist 12 years ago. So much for your vast knowledge about Stag.

dude..get a grip. I dont care when Stag started as a company. I do know when they first started the AR15 community faulted them for non-staking, light staking, and mil-spec staking.

Fact is you came here offing your website which you exclaimed was a review of Stag QC.

your sample size is 1 firearm.
you have zero proof of AS9000 cert'
you have zero topics of ISO in the industry
you have zero reference to mil-specs as relating to Stag
you have nothing but a flashy website.

my posts on this topic over the past couple years have more information on Stag vs BCM vs Vulcan vs home built vs Military use vs civilian use vs LEA use...then your whole website.

I now give you permission to search my username and cut&paste my past post on the subject in your website. At least when a Stag hater / Mil-spec Chart fan-boy finds your website you will have some real knowledge to show him.

MongooseV8
05-27-2011, 12:22 PM
I read the article and I think its dead on. Its not saying that Stag parts are magical, just that they are a good deal for those of us looking for a cheap beater rifle. Of course Stag stuff isnt the best, but I dont have to sell my truck to buy their parts either.

dieselpower
05-27-2011, 12:29 PM
FYI there guy..... might want to remove the part where you tell people Stag doesnt have M4 feed ramps...

For those wanting a rifle with extra testing and also with features for the constant firing of 5.56 ammunition Stag Arms offers the Plus Package. This package includes individual Magnetic Particle (MP) and High Pressure (HP) testing of the bolt and barrel, upgraded barrel steel, and other features listed below. Available only as a complete package.


Stag Arms standard carbines (Model 1, 2, 2T, 3, 8 and their left-handed equivalents) feature:

- Carpenter 158 shot peened Bolt with black extractor spring
- Shrouded full circle AR15 bolt carrier with side staked carrier key
- 5.56 NATO chambered barrel with chrome lining, 1/9 twist, double lead lapped, and parkerized under the front sight base
- F marked front sight base with taper pins
- Double heatshield handguards
- Mil-Spec size 7000 series aluminum receiver extension with staked receiver nut (also known as castle nut)
- One (1) 30rd USGI Magazine*


In addition to our standard features listed above the Plus Package includes:

- 4150 barrel steel chrome lined
- 1/7 Twist rifling
- M4 feed ramps
- Individually MP & HP tested and marked Bolt & Barrel
- M-16 Bolt Carrier
- Heavy (H) buffer assembly
- Two (2) 30rd USGI Magazines*

RMTactical
05-27-2011, 12:35 PM
Where to start with you. You are hilarious.

dude..get a grip. I dont care when Stag started as a company. I do know when they first started the AR15 community faulted them for non-staking, light staking, and mil-spec staking.

What does this even mean? They faulted them for milspec staking? Since when? And which is it? Make up your mind.

I've been using Stag parts in builds for me and others for as long as they have existed. They have always staked, just improperly, unless it was their first run that I missed.

your sample size is 1 firearm.
you have zero proof of AS9000 cert'
you have zero topics of ISO in the industry
you have zero reference to mil-specs as relating to Stag
you have nothing but a flashy website.

Not sure where you got this.

More like hundreds. Just because I mentioned one inparticular doesn't mean it was the only one I have owned, shot, handled, repaired, or used in any other way.

Not only have I owned and helped countless individuals build/assemble guns with Stag Parts, I am also a Stag Dealer. If I were dishonest I could just say "Stag is the best and I only recommend them".

I would write more on my website and on other forums if I wasnt a busy guy. Your approach seems to be, talking, not walking.

my posts on this topic over the past couple years have more information on Stag vs BCM vs Vulcan vs home built vs Military use vs civilian use vs LEA use...then your whole website.

Your word vs mine I guess. I havent seen anything of yours until this thread though. You've shot a lot of your credibility to me right off the bat though.

RMTactical
05-27-2011, 12:37 PM
Stag Arms standard carbines (Model 1, 2, 2T, 3, 8 and their left-handed equivalents) feature:

- Carpenter 158 shot peened Bolt with black extractor spring
- Shrouded full circle AR15 bolt carrier with side staked carrier key
- 5.56 NATO chambered barrel with chrome lining, 1/9 twist, double lead lapped, and parkerized under the front sight base
- F marked front sight base with taper pins
- Double heatshield handguards
- Mil-Spec size 7000 series aluminum receiver extension with staked receiver nut (also known as castle nut)
- One (1) 30rd USGI Magazine*

I never argued any of this.

In addition to our standard features listed above the Plus Package includes:

- 4150 barrel steel chrome lined
- 1/7 Twist rifling
- M4 feed ramps
- Individually MP & HP tested and marked Bolt & Barrel
- M-16 Bolt Carrier
- Heavy (H) buffer assembly
- Two (2) 30rd USGI Magazines*

You have to special order this one, and yes they have been doing this for some time and they don't, nor have they ever listed these for sale on their website to my knowledge. Therefore, I don't include this in my information about Stag in general, as it's not helpful to people who ask "how good is Stag Arms?"

dieselpower
05-27-2011, 1:01 PM
Where to start with you. You are hilarious.



What does this even mean? They faulted them for milspec staking? Since when? And which is it? Make up your mind.

I've been using Stag parts in builds for me and others for as long as they have existed. They have always staked, just improperly, unless it was their first run that I missed.



Not sure where you got this.

More like hundreds. Just because I mentioned one inparticular doesn't mean it was the only one I have owned, shot, handled, repaired, or used in any other way.

Not only have I owned and helped countless individuals build/assemble guns with Stag Parts, I am also a Stag Dealer. If I were dishonest I could just say "Stag is the best and I only recommend them".

I would write more on my website and on other forums if I wasnt a busy guy.



Your word vs mine I guess. I havent seen anything of yours until this thread though. You've shot a lot of your credibility to me right off the bat though.

your QC review of stag is from a seller and what your friends like...ok.
there is a whole forum on Vulcan, Hesse and BCM, and Colt and Hi-Point..there are also seller who sell Hesse, BCM, Colt and Hi-point.

whats your point?

My point.
I am a consumer
I am a gunsmith
I am armorer
I am ex-Navy
I am a Engineer
I am a QC Inspector
I am a AS9000 Inspector
I am a Mil-spec Inspector

You came here and told us you had candy bars for sale and I went there and found an empty wraper..a pretty wrapper for sure. A nicely organized display of a pretty wraps for sure.

fine man,
Please link me the detailed analysis between 4140 and 4150CMV that you conducted as it relates to Stag QC/QA/AS9000.
Please link me your comparison between 7075-T6 and 6061-T6.
Please link me the structure testing you did between Carpenter 158 and H416, or 9088.
Please Link me your NDI / DT on Stag lowers.
Please link me your websites blind testing on Stags.

all I see is a sales pitch to counter the "chart" monkeys sales pitch on M4C.

I see little difference between you and them. They offer sales gimmicks on BCMs, you offer sales gimmicks on Stags. You say its a QC/QA thing.

nice website plug, but I am not here to be your "yes man". I am here to tell you the truth.

killshot44
05-27-2011, 1:12 PM
RM, Stag's performance is well known and there are several hundred threads here discussing them.

Pimping your blog isn't neccessary. Neither is poking at Diesel.

RMTactical
05-27-2011, 4:29 PM
your QC review of stag is from a seller and what your friends like...ok.
there is a whole forum on Vulcan, Hesse and BCM, and Colt and Hi-Point..there are also seller who sell Hesse, BCM, Colt and Hi-point.

whats your point?

My point.
I am a consumer
I am a gunsmith
I am armorer
I am ex-Navy
I am a Engineer
I am a QC Inspector
I am a AS9000 Inspector
I am a Mil-spec Inspector

You came here and told us you had candy bars for sale and I went there and found an empty wraper..a pretty wrapper for sure. A nicely organized display of a pretty wraps for sure.

fine man,
Please link me the detailed analysis between 4140 and 4150CMV that you conducted as it relates to Stag QC/QA/AS9000.
Please link me your comparison between 7075-T6 and 6061-T6.
Please link me the structure testing you did between Carpenter 158 and H416, or 9088.
Please Link me your NDI / DT on Stag lowers.
Please link me your websites blind testing on Stags.

all I see is a sales pitch to counter the "chart" monkeys sales pitch on M4C.

I see little difference between you and them. They offer sales gimmicks on BCMs, you offer sales gimmicks on Stags. You say its a QC/QA thing.

nice website plug, but I am not here to be your "yes man". I am here to tell you the truth.

OK, keep making all the assumptions you like. We can all see how well the assumptions have been working out for you. Believe what you want, but you have lost all your credibility with me.

You don't know much about AR15's.

I am still kind of confused about where you stand when it comes to Stag. I wish I had more time to sit here and hash it out with you because you haven't answered ANY of my questions. You have been less than informative in your posting other than to say that you disagree with whatever I have said.

I am still waiting for you to educate us all. You disagree, but you can't back it up with anything.

RMTactical
05-27-2011, 4:30 PM
RM, Stag's performance is well known and there are several hundred threads here discussing them.

Pimping your blog isn't neccessary. Neither is poking at Diesel.

Sorry. Feel free to avoid my thread. I never started into Diesel. He has a problem with me apparently.

Mr_Monkeywrench
05-27-2011, 7:20 PM
I've read thread after thread after thread after thread speaking about is "x" better than "y" and x is better because x uses a steel that y doesn't. Fact of the matter is even if I tried I couldn't tell u the difference anyway. The way I see it is like this. I own a stag and I like it. U own a bcm and you like it. Frankly I don't think brands mean all that much. I think we get too caught up in rifle type when the rifle itself is only a minuscule part of the equasion. I think what makes a rifle "good" is the rifleman behind the trigger. I've heard it said, "A plane is only as good as its pilot.

RMTactical
05-28-2011, 12:44 AM
Fact of the matter is even if I tried I couldn't tell u the difference anyway.

Obviously. I said as much. It depends on how much you shoot. Most shooters will never know the difference, because they don't shoot often enough.

ironcross
05-28-2011, 12:51 AM
IMO: Stag Arms is a high quality rife manufacture.

While to each to their own. I wouldn't turn down Stag Arms and neither would my friends. We shot Colts (Had FTF/Range rifle) and the Stag shot better. That was our own opinion.

Stag gets the job done with I need it to. I tend to refer them as the Glock of the AR world in terms of the customer service.

Yet again to each their own.

My 09 2HT doesn't have the fancy M4 feed ramps. Yet again it's a semi-auto and doesn't need them. I've never had a malfunction with a Stag. I've built my rifle though. I've shot almost everything through it except wolf. While I would shoot wolf through it I just don't prefer it. Just a few extra cleaning hours. :D

NorCalAthlete
05-28-2011, 12:51 AM
Didn't bother with the website. Dunno what the pissing match is all about. But for what it's worth I bought a Stag-15 stripped lower, slapped a Colt upper and LPK and some other military parts on it and it works fine. *shrug* dunno about their complete rifles but my stripped lower works fine lol.

HK Dave
05-28-2011, 4:12 AM
Noticed Stag is what you sell on your website. ;)

Just sayin! :D

lrdchivalry
05-28-2011, 8:22 AM
In regards to Stag, you get what you paid for, an excellent rifle for a decent price! I have own multiple Stag rifles and have no complaints.

dieselpower
05-28-2011, 8:40 AM
Sorry. Feel free to avoid my thread. I never started into Diesel. He has a problem with me apparently.

I have a problem with people telling me they have completed a QC review and all I see is a commercial for a website and product some guy sells.

A QC review is NOT, "me and my buddies like it, and I sell a lot of them Please come buy more from me....

I own Stag. I conduct QC/QA Inspections for a living. I posted here explaining what you did wrong and since I caught you with your pants down you got all defensive.

Why don't you go and do a REAL QC review then report back. If you need some ideas on how to do double or single blind QC test, how to find a standard use threshold, or research a mil-spec.. ask me.

RMTactical
05-28-2011, 9:18 AM
Noticed Stag is what you sell on your website. ;)

Just sayin! :D

That is correct. However, I talk about TONS of various gun manufacturers on my various blogs. I just say what I know from personal experience. I don't sell most of any product I talk about on my blogs.

I think highly of Stag enough to sell their product. Doesn't mean I think they are the best though and I have said as much.

In regards to Stag, you get what you paid for, an excellent rifle for a decent price! I have own multiple Stag rifles and have no complaints.

Exactly.

I have a problem with people telling me they have completed a QC review and all I see is a commercial for a website and product some guy sells.

A QC review is NOT, "me and my buddies like it, and I sell a lot of them Please come buy more from me....

I own Stag. I conduct QC/QA Inspections for a living. I posted here explaining what you did wrong and since I caught you with your pants down you got all defensive.

Why don't you go and do a REAL QC review then report back. If you need some ideas on how to do double or single blind QC test, how to find a standard use threshold, or research a mil-spec.. ask me.

You don't know me very well. If you think I am just pimping something I sell, fine. Feel that way. People who are objective enough see that is not the case. I am not shy about saying I really like BCM and Spikes, yet I don't list one of their products on my site. That is obviously the tactic of a shady salesman.

I OWN Stags too. I gave my honest opinion about a product that I own and use. I understand and know the differences between things and why certain QC steps are important. You obviously do not. You spend your time talking. I actually use theses products.

evidens83
05-28-2011, 9:32 AM
Uh oh another "How good is Stag?" thread...:xeno:

steve92407
05-28-2011, 9:43 AM
god i love a salesman.

dieselpower
05-28-2011, 9:58 AM
You don't know me very well. If you think I am just pimping something I sell, fine. Feel that way. People who are objective enough see that is not the case. I am not shy about saying I really like BCM and Spikes, yet I don't list one of their products on my site. That is obviously the tactic of a shady salesman.

I OWN Stags too. I gave my honest opinion about a product that I own and use. I understand and know the differences between things and why certain QC steps are important. You obviously do not. You spend your time talking. I actually use theses products.


paragraph #1 of your link
OK, I ranted a while ago about how if you want the "best AR15" out there, you should get a Colt, BCM, Spikes, LMT, etc... It's true, these manufacturers make their weapons to a higher standard. That standard is explained in more detail in this link. Reading it may be beneficial to understanding where the Stag is falling short and why it might make a difference.
Zero facts, Zero QC review. The link here leads to more OPINE by you.

The next several sentences are more opines from you. ZERO QC talk or citation.

The next few sun-paragraphs are sales pitches to buy Stag.

this is a complete lie
They use a lower quality barrel steel than is required for milspec. However, I don't think this is a big deal either. Most people will never treat their rifles quite like a machine gun. It is still a quality firearm grade steel and most people will NEVER know the difference between 4150 MIL-B-11595E barrel steel and 4140. No where in Mil-spec does it say the AR15 must have a 4150CMV barrel. It says IF YOU OFFER A 4150CMV, it must be tested IAW Mil-B-11595E. So you just spread more lies started by the "chart" monkeys at M4C. You simply vomit out stuff you hear in order to SELL stuff. Have you EVEN READ Mil-B-11595E?????? 4140CM is better in some ways than 4150CMV and if you actually researched steels you would understand that. The Miliatry has set the TDP to allow many steels...4150CMV is ONE they require. Its a per contract requirment. It can change at any time and has ..many many times. You do not research, test or QC review.... lets move on down your website...

You then end your QC review with more sales pitches.

Show me ONE QC review of Stag you did. Please justify your obvious pimping of your website by showing me ONE test, or ONE comparison, or ONE independent study...any thing...

Until you change that title or insert at least one review of a QC/QA issue...you just got caught whoring a sales pitch and are pissed at me for calling you on it.

dieselpower
05-28-2011, 10:16 AM
You want to pimp your website and NOT get jumped on by jackwagon members like me... do what some of us can't do..

support CalGuns, contribute funds, support us Via link and a good word about the FIGHT California is in and how MANY MANY vendors and gun retailers fight AGAINST US!

Don't just come here to make a buck off of us.

mnguyen84
05-28-2011, 11:43 AM
i'm scared. i dont want to buy another AR15 ever again. hey DieselPower, what would you recommended as a value AR15 that doesn't compromises too much on quality?

dieselpower
05-28-2011, 2:40 PM
i'm scared. i dont want to buy another AR15 ever again. hey DieselPower, what would you recommended as a value AR15 that doesn't compromises too much on quality?

Depends on what you are doing with it. BCM is good. Stag, and CMMG are just as good.

Bushmaster carbon fiber, Plumcrazy plastic... thats where what you are doing plays a big part in if this is good enough for you... so its a YMMV type of thing.

Right now I have been doing a lot of research into this salt baths (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferritic_nitrocarburizing) as it pertains to barrels. From what I can tell CMMGs WASP is just as good, and in some cases better than chrome lining. Since few have done the research into this, the WASP uppers are a steal right now. So over the life of the upper vs a standard chrome lined from brand X.. the CMMG LE WASP 1/9 is the best value out there.

The lower is YMMV.. a plumcrazy plastic lower maybe fine for one guy ($160 out the door) and a SunDevil 6061-T651 lower+LMT stock+Colt LPK is best for someone else ($575 out the door).

mlevans66
05-28-2011, 3:08 PM
Whoa this thread was getting ugly and informative at the same time. EPIC and I read the reveiw and all I got to say is, I know Stag is a pretty good AR maker but that review was a little bias, killa. My two cents. Also don't get the Diesel started, guy a maniac when let loose. LOL

Cokebottle
05-28-2011, 3:37 PM
I'm not impressed after two experiences with Stag.

#1 - LPK
Disconnector doesn't seem to fit right... it is extremely difficult to "rock" it on the trigger pin. I bought two LPKs, both were the same. I was concerned about trigger slap causing unintentional bump-fire and replaced the FCG with RRA before attempting to fire either gun.

#2 - 4H upper.
Fits fine, goes bang every time, no FTF/FTE issues... but the gas key is not staked. I'm probably going to replace it with an RRA chrome BCG so I'm not going to sweat it... but I am not impressed with Stag.

Stripped lower or a barreled upper less BCG? I'd have no problem buying another.

Cokebottle
05-28-2011, 3:42 PM
6 Years ago Stag didn't stake gas keys. So please tell me what their current QA/QC policy is?...anyone? anyone?
They still don't.

I bought my 4H upper just over a month ago.
Not staked.

Cokebottle
05-28-2011, 3:52 PM
They stake them, just not always properly. They staked them 6 years ago too, but just improperly just as now.
Bull****

I bought this about 8-10 weeks ago. There is no evidence of any attempt to stake this. This is from a 4H upper.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99991&stc=1&d=1306626664
You have said nothing to support your claims. Your words are empty. Educate us please.
There ya go.

Show us a staked (properly or improperly) gas key from current inventory.

jdouglas
05-28-2011, 6:07 PM
My Stag 1H upper came staked (or else OperationParts.com staked it after receiving it from Stag Arms). It doesn't look as extreme as some staking jobs, but the metal is definitely deformed enough to touch the screws. The screws themselves are not deformed that much though (if at all).

rattlesnake_nm
05-28-2011, 6:33 PM
:rolleyes :Wow, major pissing match. "I'm an expert!, No I'm an expert on ar15s"
lmao. I am like the king of ar15s and ak47s nanny nanny boo boo.

dieselpower
05-28-2011, 7:36 PM
:rolleyes :Wow, major pissing match. "I'm an expert!, No I'm an expert on ar15s"
lmao. I am like the king of ar15s and ak47s nanny nanny boo boo.

thats all you got out of this thread...how sad.:rolleyes:

rattlesnake_nm
05-28-2011, 7:38 PM
Not all. I got You beating a dead horse with Your opinions like usual. Because You assembled a few ar15s You are the "expert" king of the ar world, we get it.

kazman
05-28-2011, 8:54 PM
What's with all the Stag threads? My works fine and the gas key is staked.

evidens83
05-28-2011, 9:50 PM
What's with all the Stag threads?

Seriously. I've never seen so many threads so unsure of one particular manufacturer more than I've seen with Stag..

dieselpower
05-28-2011, 10:20 PM
Seriously. I've never seen so many threads so unsure of one particular manufacturer more than I've seen with Stag..

The reason is simple. Its a major manufacture that is threatening the status quo.

years ago it was bushmaster and RRA. There are still parts of the country you walk into a range carrying an RRA or BM and they will tell you all sorts of honor stories...there are other parts where RRA and Bm are gifts from god.

The deal is simple, Stag has both haters and fan boys. People don't know who to believe so they ask...constantly. They ask because Stag is plentiful in their local shops and within their price range. No one wants to make a bad choice.

The confusing in people is simple.
Haters post + people post nonsensical useless info, who think they are posting positive stuff (this thread and the accompanying link are prime examples) + Guys like (now ignored) rattlesnake who just post pure hate = unknown.

people place more weight on the negative then the positive they hear. So you need to read 20 good reviews before you will disregard the 1 bad.

There are very few people posting real meat and potatoes information on the subject. I try to post in each thread, (and get blasted for it). I try and point to hard data, actual testing, actual science, real world stuff so a person can decide for himself.

flame on rattlesnake, I cant see what you post anyway.

rattlesnake_nm
05-29-2011, 5:44 AM
flame on rattlesnake, I cant see what you post anyway.

Ok Mr. Ar15 guru. You know it all, and are the king :rolleyes:

stag6.8
05-29-2011, 11:50 AM
I checked both of my stag rifles and both of the bolts are HEAVILY staked.....but if they weren`t....I`d go to a gunsmith and have them staked, or buy a new bolt system if that could not be done....no big deal.. Both of the uppers did not have m4 feed ramps....so I went to a gunsmith and had some added for 20 dollars...again...no big deal. By what I`ve read of this thread...the issues that people have brought up regarding stag rifles were things that could be easily resolved with the help of a gunsmith ...all in all...stag rifles are good quality...reliable and decent priced...

Cokebottle
05-29-2011, 12:09 PM
I`d go to a gunsmith and have them staked, or buy a new bolt system if that could not be done....no big deal...... so I went to a gunsmith and had some added for 20 dollars...again...no big deal.
things that could be easily resolved with the help of a gunsmith ...all in all...stag rifles are good quality...reliable and decent priced...
Why should I have to take a brand new part to a gunsmith to make it "right"?
That completely voids the point of the part being an inexpensive part.
Maybe it's only $20 or $40 to a gunsmith... but it's also 4 or more hours of my time and $50 in gas to drive it to the smith, drop it off, and go back and pick it up.

Ya, it's an inexpensive part and I can understand if some things aren't perfect. I knew that going in when I bought my Stag upper, and I wasn't totally surprised to see the gas key not staked. Like you said, no big deal, I'm planning to replace it with an RRA chrome bolt anyways... but I was planning to do that even before I discovered that it wasn't staked.

But the fanbois (of any product) are doing the membership here a disservice when they present the product as the end-all-be-all product, like the link from the OP.

There IS a difference between a $500 and a $1500 upper.
The problem is, the fanbois make it difficult to tell how much of that $1500 is paying for a name and how much is actually paying for quality.

dieselpower
05-29-2011, 12:15 PM
I checked both of my stag rifles and both of the bolts are HEAVILY staked.....but if they weren`t....I`d go to a gunsmith and have them staked, or buy a new bolt system if that could not be done....no big deal.. Both of the uppers did not have m4 feed ramps....so I went to a gunsmith and had some added for 20 dollars...again...no big deal. By what I`ve read of this thread...the problems that arose regarding stag rifles were things that could be easily resolved with the help of a gunsmith ...all in all...stag rifles are good quality...reliable and decent priced...

Actually none of the things were problems. They still are not, its a case of people getting bad info.

M4 feed ramps...not really needed. M16A2s and National Match Rifles don't have M4 feed ramps and don't need them. The ramps were needed for full auto carbines where the BCG timing meant the round was shoved into the chamber faster and with more force. Ramps are not needed on semi-autos or Rifle or mid gas systems.

Staking. Its a personal better to have them then not" safety measure. I have never needed them except when I was in the Military. I have gone 20+ years without staking a single gas key bolt and I have assembled dozens. ZERO failures. If you do it right, you do not need staking. Young Manufacturing has a disclaimer on all BCGs sold. If you stake the gas key bolts, YOU pay for the repair. They do not stake gas key bolts at the factory because they assemble and test them. they don't need staking to stay in place.

Barrel- 4150CMV is a military standard they like to see. They use HUNDREDS of different firearms WITHOUT 4150CMV barrels. AK47s, AK74s, HKs, Sigs, Springfield's, S&Ws, Brownings...all use standard grade 4140 weapon steel. If you offer a weapon with a 4150CMV barrel, you MUST comply with the testing requirements set forth in Mil-B-11595E or the firearm needs a waiver to be placed into service. Waivers have been issued. If you offer a forearm with a 4140CM barrel...no wavier is needed. The interesting thing with 4150CMV...when heated to 1100 degrees the barrel has a chance of becoming a pipe bomb. When heated again to a very low temp, it will explode and shatter. This was noted by SF units after the M4A1 was given a full auto FCG and not a Burst FCG. ArmaLite researched the problem and its unsolvable. Its a molecular change that occurs in CMV at 1000-1100 degrees. the fix is DON'T HEAT THE BARREL TO 1100degrees! LOL Or how about not having a 4150CMV to begin with...seems too logical doesn't it.

Shot peen Bolts and non-MPI bolts. This is strange call. There is no evidence that batch testing isn't as good as single item testing. There is no requirement to single item test after delivery items (meaning the rifle must have a single tested Bolt, but the replacement bolts do not need that requirement). Bolts nowadays use Carpenter 158 which meets the strength requirement without shot peening. So once again, its just a piece of mind thing.

These are the differences that people worry about when buying Stag. I don't get were all the "problem" is. A BCM has nothing in reality over a Stag. Its all in the mind of the buyer. I think a flashy paint job and colored roll marks is an upgrade...???:D

Cokebottle
05-29-2011, 12:25 PM
+1 on the M4 ramps.
Honestly, I would rather not have them on the upper.

An upper without M4 ramps can use either barrel extension. The M4 barrel extension is less than optimal, but it will work just fine for a semi-auto gun.
OTOH, if your upper has M4 ramps, and your extension does not, it's not going to work.

OHW
05-29-2011, 1:01 PM
Actually none of the things were problems. They still are not, its a case of people getting bad info.

M4 feed ramps...not really needed. M16A2s and National Match Rifles don't have M4 feed ramps and don't need them. The ramps were needed for full auto carbines where the BCG timing meant the round was shoved into the chamber faster and with more force. Ramps are not needed on semi-autos or Rifle or mid gas systems.

Staking. Its a personal better to have them then not" safety measure. I have never needed them except when I was in the Military. I have gone 20+ years without staking a single gas key bolt and I have assembled dozens. ZERO failures. If you do it right, you do not need staking. Young Manufacturing has a disclaimer on all BCGs sold. If you stake the gas key bolts, YOU pay for the repair. They do not stake gas key bolts at the factory because they assemble and test them. they don't need staking to stay in place.

Barrel- 4150CMV is a military standard they like to see. They use HUNDREDS of different firearms WITHOUT 4150CMV barrels. AK47s, AK74s, HKs, Sigs, Springfield's, S&Ws, Brownings...all use standard grade 4140 weapon steel. If you offer a weapon with a 4150CMV barrel, you MUST comply with the testing requirements set forth in Mil-B-11595E or the firearm needs a waiver to be placed into service. Waivers have been issued. If you offer a forearm with a 4140CM barrel...no wavier is needed. The interesting thing with 4150CMV...when heated to 1100 degrees the barrel has a chance of becoming a pipe bomb. When heated again to a very low temp, it will explode and shatter. This was noted by SF units after the M4A1 was given a full auto FCG and not a Burst FCG. ArmaLite researched the problem and its unsolvable. Its a molecular change that occurs in CMV at 1000-1100 degrees. the fix is DON'T HEAT THE BARREL TO 1100degrees! LOL Or how about not having a 4150CMV to begin with...seems too logical doesn't it.

Shot peen Bolts and non-MPI bolts. This is strange call. There is no evidence that batch testing isn't as good as single item testing. There is no requirement to single item test after delivery items (meaning the rifle must have a single tested Bolt, but the replacement bolts do not need that requirement). Bolts nowadays use Carpenter 158 which meets the strength requirement without shot peening. So once again, its just a piece of mind thing.

These are the differences that people worry about when buying Stag. I don't get were all the "problem" is. A BCM has nothing in reality over a Stag. Its all in the mind of the buyer. I think a flashy paint job and colored roll marks is an upgrade...???:D

Sounds like you do QC for a living.;)

Very much like the objectivity you put forth in this post.

Staking drives people nuts. Given a choice , locktight over hammerring on a hollow BC hard enough to deform the hexhead and BC. Is the staking done after the BC gets QC'd? Sounds like a recipe for disaster.

Milspec barrels have a fault? Say it isn't so. Stag has lifetime barrel replacement policy. Stag uses the same steel used by most of the private gun industry of the world. Wow, must be crap if it does not meet Milspec. :rolleyes:

Stags' roll mark is not as pretty as a CNC etching. Nor is its anodizing the prettiest in the industry. Who cares this is not a part of function.

RMTactical
05-29-2011, 5:01 PM
Bull****

I bought this about 8-10 weeks ago. There is no evidence of any attempt to stake this. This is from a 4H upper.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99991&stc=1&d=1306626664

There ya go.

Show us a staked (properly or improperly) gas key from current inventory.

Relax.

They do attempt to stake everything. That is not to say they have never made a mistake.


But the fanbois (of any product) are doing the membership here a disservice when they present the product as the end-all-be-all product, like the link from the OP.


If I were a fanboy, I wouldnt be truthful in my opinion on Stag. I don't think they are the end all be all. So I am not sure where you are getting that... I think they make an acceptable rifle for the money, yes. However, you can do better.

A BCM has nothing in reality over a Stag.

Like always, total bull. Thanks for playing though. ;)

dieselpower
05-29-2011, 5:09 PM
Relax.

They do attempt to stake everything. That is not to say they have never made a mistake.



If I were a fanboy, I wouldnt be truthful in my opinion on Stag. I don't think they are the end all be all. So I am not sure where you are getting that... I think they make an acceptable rifle for the money, yes. However, you can do better.



Like always, total bull. Thanks for playing though. ;)

please tell me one feature that I have not already mentioned that a BCM has over a Stag, or DD, or ArmaLite, or Bushmaster, or RRA, or Noveske, or JP, or JSE, or AP, or AA, orEA....blah blah blah.

Its all in your head at best. Its all...the sales pitch "better to have it then not" mindset. They use the same vendors for Alloy, the same cast parts, the same spring vendors.

Cokebottle
05-29-2011, 7:02 PM
They do attempt to stake everything. That is not to say they have never made a mistake.
Doesn't look like they made an attempt.
Unless Riflegear bought the parts and assembled the BCG themselves and sold it in a Stag upper... I would be more inclined to believe that Stag BCGs that others have reported as staked were done by the dealer.

Like I said... show me a current inventory gas key that you bought direct from Stag that was staked.
If I were a fanboy, I wouldnt be truthful in my opinion on Stag. I don't think they are the end all be all. So I am not sure where you are getting that... I think they make an acceptable rifle for the money, yes. However, you can do better.Sure... they make an okay upper.
But is it any better than anything else out there? It might be better than DelTon... might be comparable, I don't know, but they certainly are in the same league as DTI, and certainly aren't better than DD, RRA, Noveske, and yes... even BCM.

It's a low-end rifle part and will serve it's owner as such. Take it into combat? I wouldn't. Tossing 500 rounds down range every month or two? Sure, it's fine.

cr250chevy
05-29-2011, 7:25 PM
My upper came directly from Stag and is staked.....

loosewreck
05-29-2011, 7:28 PM
Someone needs to start a thread where guys with Stags and Deltons can report how many rounds they've fired or how it performed at a recent carbine class. Other, than the staking, I really do think that Stag is not as bad as some claim. They seem to be very popular, considering BCM's competitive pricing, you can't say its because Stag is cheaper and they're not exactly winning on the marketing end.

I'm really serious about someone starting such a thread, so folks could just stop arguing, motivated by what ever personal reason or what ever, and just read facts and come to a rational conclusion.

BTW, I don't own either a Stag or Delton, but I do own a Bushmaster and BCM upper, both of which running BCM BCGs. I'm happy with both, but I can't afford to shoot enough to really find out which is superior. Someday I will, I'm working on it. ;)

pyro3k2
05-29-2011, 10:36 PM
Diesel power + any stag thread either +/- always delievers.

the only thing more fun to read is Diesel in a BCM thread

tagged fo'sho!

Raptor1Ronin
05-30-2011, 7:13 AM
I love my stag! not one problem here over 1500 rounds of steel and brass!

Just-in
05-30-2011, 7:51 AM
I hate threads like this. It really makes you second guess the decision to spend the hard earned dollars. I've had my eye on a 2H I spotted at a local dealer but now I question myself. Hold out for BCM? RRA? Or stay cheap with del-ton or a DPMS. FML...

dieselpower
05-30-2011, 8:31 AM
I hate threads like this. It really makes you second guess the decision to spend the hard earned dollars. I've had my eye on a 2H I spotted at a local dealer but now I question myself. Hold out for BCM? RRA? Or stay cheap with del-ton or a DPMS. FML...

Its a great sales campaign isn't it. Its works because people are used to seeing several like items in different price buckets, and then seeing an obvious difference.

The trick is for the Salesman to fool the buying public into thinking there is a higher standard. Then you can point to regular old differences and say.."look here see this is why X isn't as good...".

Gas Key--- Assembled WRONG and STAKED = LEAK
Gas Key--- Assembled WRONG and NOT STAKED = LEAK

Gas Key--- Assembled RIGHT and Staked = SEALED
Gas Key--- Assembled RIGHT and NOT STAKED = SEALED

Staking doesn't stop a leak. What staking does is give you one more level of protection from the bolt loosing up and then leaking. If you properly assemble the BCG, the bolts will not loosen up.

When the M16A1 was issued, NO 1 knew this. The guys assembling the BCG at the factory were just hand tightening the gas keys. Some made it into the field and loosened up. The field fix was to tighten the crap out of the bolts, then use a hammer and screwdriver to stake the bolts.

There was a fight at the upper levels, Colt didn't want to stake, the Military wanted it. Colt wanted to implement a proper assembly procedure to include torque and policies in both the factories and at the Military armories to check that torque. The customer won. Not only did Colt implement those policies, they staked on top of that.

The sign of a better weapon isn't if there is Staking on the gas key...its in if the gas key leaks.

I will bet dollars for donuts my properly assembled gas key will function throughout an entire CC. You know what...when I do a major cleaning at the end of each night, I can check my torque..why? Because my bolts are not staked. If your bolts do loosen up...your screwed. If your bolts snap...your screwed. Thats one of the reason you need to carry an extra BCG, You must change your gas key and bolts... NOW please raise your hand if you carry a spare gas key and bolts and hammer and chisel along with the tool tip to screw the bolts in..???? I bet NONE OF YOU.

At the next CC any of you go to, ask the class, "Who here has an extra gas key and bolts, along with the tools to change them?" Most will say they just carry an extra BCG.

Staking is not better... when you think about it, its worse. Its an IDIOT light on a dash board telling the driver, driving your car 100,000 miles without changing the oil is not a good idea.

Every couple thousand rounds I have the ability to CHECK my bolts...how about you?

My Colt/ArmaLite/Bushmaster/CMMG BCG & gas key...10,000 rounds and no failure
http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu272/Wiringguy/0209011351.jpg

Average Joe American
05-30-2011, 9:03 AM
My Stag is not staked.























But then again its a model 8, LOL and doesnt have keys to stake in the first place. Without having to search through countless old threads...has anyone asked "DieselPower" what AR15 he thinks is the best? With his creds, I am sure what ever he suggests would sell alot of? I thinks its sad when I see 2 good gun guys fight. We have enough haters with the anti gun liberals that its just sad to see in-fighting between us gun enthusiasts.

Folks ego's can get a little inflated around here.

dieselpower
05-30-2011, 9:28 AM
^ I will tell you what AR15 is the best.
1) Fire 500 rounds, to 1000 rounds, no major stoppage past immediate actions
2) No more than 5 immediate action clears per 100 rounds
3) 1.5 MOA from a rest, 2 MOA with cheap ammo
4) No maintenance actions needed before 1000 rounds

I don't give an "F", what roll mark is on your lower. My Colt was a POS, I have read dozens of, "my BCM is broke threads" I have read dozens of "My Stag is broke" threads...

There are guys who NEVER open the hood of their cars. My brother-in-law owns several BMWs and has NEVER popped the hood. Its been to the shop several times...but BMWs are the best cars...LOL

To own any firearm means you must understand it. You must know and practice solid Known good practices. There is a reason I link both TM9s in my signature. Every AR15 owners should have a copy of these.

TM9-1005-319-10 and TM9-1005-319-23. You need to down load these as an owner. What is written on the side of your rifle means ZERO, the knowledge you have on that rifle is paramount.

bombadillo
05-30-2011, 9:29 AM
My Stag wasn't staked at all when I got it 2 years ago. My Bushmaster was.

My Palmetto 4150cmv barrel has been great after a couple hundred rounds, but so was my bushmaster 20" JP 18" Stag 16" BCM 16" CMMG 16" and all of the others i've forgotten about.

WASP coating seems to be great and I would definitely give it a chance. Not stag, not mil-spec, not anything but decent quality.

As far as something BCM, DD, or others give that stag doesn't most times are M4 feedramp cuts that are cut PROPERLY. My stag did have more failure to feed issues than most of the others and I do partially speculate it was due to the ramp cuts. I know its not an M4 and I'm not running full auto and its rated for this that, or the other, but I'm just throwing it out there.


Boy what a pissing match over something lame as a brand preference. I have bought MANY ar's now and they've all been pretty solid. Even some M1S uppers I've seen go out and shoot sub MOA scoped and didn't have issues so some of the junk can perform better than a Noveske, but who cares. If we get out and shoot and enjoy the sport of shooting, does it really matter if you have a stag, bcm, JP, Noveske, LMT, or otherwise???

Average Joe American
05-30-2011, 11:20 AM
I agree, I could care less what roll mark is on the side of your gun either. I have always advocated that you just buy what works for you. If you are not hard core then some solid training and a decent gun will do. If you ARE hard core...then get a gun with the features you need to make it through a carbine course (or survive combat if thats your level of hard core?)

I recently went shooting with a friend and his Colt had a serious failure to extract that left him out for the rest of the day since he didnt have anything to punch it out the chamber...while my Stag M8 ran (his steel Wolf ammo non the less) all day with no malfunctions. Am I claiming that Stag is the best gun ever? Not even close. Was it the best gun that day? Sure I am comfortable saying that, lol.

All guns malfunction. Train to work through it. If you never have a malfunction, I'd hate to see how you handle one when you eventually do have one. (I am not talking to Diesel here, I am just speaking in general)

RMTactical
05-30-2011, 7:09 PM
please tell me one feature that I have not already mentioned that a BCM has over a Stag, or DD, or ArmaLite, or Bushmaster, or RRA, or Noveske, or JP, or JSE, or AP, or AA, orEA....blah blah blah.

Its all in your head at best. Its all...the sales pitch "better to have it then not" mindset. They use the same vendors for Alloy, the same cast parts, the same spring vendors.

It's ok. I realize you probably work for Model 1 or some other company that struggles to keep up with the quality of others. Either that or you just don't have much trigger time with AR15's. You spend your time talking about them instead.


Unless Riflegear bought the parts and assembled the BCG themselves and sold it in a Stag upper...

Not impossible. Seems very likely to me.

Like I said... show me a current inventory gas key that you bought direct from Stag that was staked.

Well, considering I have a bunch of them... and I sell them fairly regularly, I could definitely say that they are attempting to stake every one I have ever seen.

I hate threads like this. It really makes you second guess the decision to spend the hard earned dollars. I've had my eye on a 2H I spotted at a local dealer but now I question myself. Hold out for BCM? RRA? Or stay cheap with del-ton or a DPMS. FML...

I think Stag makes a fine product. You can do better, but you can also do much worse.

Cokebottle
05-30-2011, 7:35 PM
Not impossible. Seems very likely to me.
You obviously don't know the guys at Riflegear.
but you can also do much worse.
Examples?

RMTactical
05-30-2011, 8:37 PM
You obviously don't know the guys at Riflegear.

I admit as much. However, I do know the guys at Stag quite well. :)

Examples?

More than I could probably list. However, in my experience, the worst you could do is Model 1 or Hesse.

Just-in
05-30-2011, 9:15 PM
For the same money how can I do better than stag? I had a DPMS upper that ran good but this rifle I'm working on will likely be my last ar for a while I really want a bolt gun... At the same time I don't want to piss away my hard earned dollas, the gubment does enough of that!

dieselpower
05-30-2011, 9:49 PM
I admit as much. However, I do know the guys at Stag quite well. :)



More than I could probably list. However, in my experience, the worst you could do is Model 1 or Hesse.

So you think you are going to win friends here by insulting Riflegear and me...well me I can see, you can win plenty of sales that way...

whatever man. You have shown us your true colors. The only reason come here and the only reason you write that blog is to sell people your stuff.

A very smart man once said, "THE LAST PERSON YOU SHOULD EXPECT TO TELL YOU THE TRUTH IS THE GUY SELLING YOU THE ITEM."

bullseye. Your blog is gibberish, nonsense and you have shown you only know what other salesman have told you...nothing.

so once again...are you going to pay to be a vendor here or just pimp your website for suckers to fleece?

pyro3k2
05-30-2011, 11:14 PM
GD! do I love this thread

kazman
05-31-2011, 2:23 PM
:popcorn: Mus admit I'm enjoyin this meself

RMTactical
05-31-2011, 2:26 PM
So you think you are going to win friends here by insulting Riflegear and me...well me I can see, you can win plenty of sales that way...

whatever man. You have shown us your true colors. The only reason come here and the only reason you write that blog is to sell people your stuff.

A very smart man once said, "THE LAST PERSON YOU SHOULD EXPECT TO TELL YOU THE TRUTH IS THE GUY SELLING YOU THE ITEM."

bullseye. Your blog is gibberish, nonsense and you have shown you only know what other salesman have told you...nothing.

so once again...are you going to pay to be a vendor here or just pimp your website for suckers to fleece?

I don't know anything about riflegear. I've made no comment about them, but if you represent them in any kind of official capacity, that would tell me plenty about them.

HK Dave
05-31-2011, 2:37 PM
Diesel doesn't represent Riflegear.com as far as I know anyhow. He is a pretty smart guy when it comes to AR15s... yes sometimes he comes off as a little hmm... forceful? Not sure what the right term is... but that's to be expected from someone his age and experience. (I respect my elders :P No I'm not a kid, i'm in my mid 30s) Many of us here at calguns do appreciate him.

Riflegear is the prime example of how a gun business is done right. Their customer service is top notch, their prices are fair/good for a brick and mortar and they stock a huge variety of rifles and parts. They never try to cheat anyone and are upfront about everything. No switching out of parts, always honest in their dealings.

I've yet to meet someone that had something to say about Riflegear.

As a disclaimer, I don't work for Riflegear, I don't even do a lot of my shopping there, but every time I do shop there, and every time I've spoken to the fine folks there, I was a very satisfied customer.

I'm not a HUGE gun nut... but i do make an average of about $5k-$8K in gun stuff a year if that's worth anything.

Just-in
05-31-2011, 4:41 PM
So other than the gas key not being staked what are people griping about when it comes to stag uppers?

dieselpower
05-31-2011, 5:43 PM
So other than the gas key not being staked what are people griping about when it comes to stag uppers?

The gripes
1) Non-High Pressure tested Bolts.
2) Non-Magnetic particle tested Bolts
3) Non-Shot peen Bolts.

Shot peening adds to the strength of metal. If the non-shot peen part meets or exceeds the required strength..why do you care?
Tested bolts fail just as often as non-tested bolts. The heating and cooling of the Bolt along with the constant torsion of the cam causes failure at some point. The testing will only reveal flaws in a newly manufactured Bolt that will cause premature failure within a set amount of time due to the type of flaw those test reveal. If your Bolt last 500 rounds...it doesn't have that flaw. A tested "Good" Bolt can fail before or after 500 rds just the same as one NOT tested. A batch test is when a manufacture produces 100 Bolts and randomly tests 10 of them. If they all pass the test, the remaining 90 are sold. People gripe about batch testing. CMT/Stag normally only batch test unless you ask for a tested part.

4) Rifle Twist. People think because the military likes 1:7 that 1:7 is the best twist. Its not. 1:8 is the best twist rate. 1:9 is used by a majority of AR15 manufacturers since its the best twist for 55 gr (the most common round). The only reason the military went to 1:7 was due to them designing the 69gr round. 1:7, 1:8, 1:9 are all fine.

5) Barrel steel. Since someone found out a Mil-spec requiring a vendor to test any barrel made with 4150CMV was written and that Colt and FN comply with that mil-spec, they twisted that fact into a sales pitch saying that the 4150CMV was the best barrel steel. Its not. 4150CMV has a serious flaw. while it does provide the barrel the capability to heat past 1200 degrees and NOT melt until 1500 degrees. The flaw is if it is in fact heated past 1100 there is a increasing chance the steel will develop micro-cracks when the molecules form improper bonds. If this happens and the barrel is then heated past 500 degrees the barrel will explode. It can no long hold up under the pressures of the 5.56 or .223 round. Standard weapons grade steel of 4140CM does not have this flaw. It will not heat up past 1200 though, at about 1100 degrees it turns white hot and will just droop like a wet noodle. People have this mall ninja mindset that they will need suppressive fire combating hordes of zombies and need a 4150CMV for the extra heat resistance. They dont understand that if you heat a barrel to this level you MUST replace it. The wear factory when heated really plays a slight role as well. The extra carbon content of 4150 is minuscule at best. The reason the Military wrote Mil-B-11595E was to insure anyone offering a 4150CMV did so under a standard. The military doesn't require 4140CM to meet that standard due to the fact you really cant screw up 4140 like you can screw up 4150CMV. There is no reason to test 4140CM. Most barrel manufacture offer 4150CMV because the customer is always right...they realize there is little chance a semi-auto is going to over heat and cause an explosion unless the user is trying to do that. In that instance the user is abusing the barrel and that in itself clears the manufacture of all liability. This is the same logic with 1:7... the manufactures dont want to educate, they want to sell...so they offer 4150CMV 1:7 and use the "just like the military" sales pitch.

6) M4 feed ramps. The M4 has a fast cyclic rate due to the gas port location. That full auto cyclic rate needs a extended ramp for the rounds to load properly due to the extra mass of the BCG and Buffer. The force that the BCG is shoving the round into the chamber causes the nose to jump. Unless you have a F/A BCG and a Heavy buffer you do not need M4 ramps. Its all about the balance of mass forcing the round into the chamber. If you have a standard gas system, you don't need a F/A BCG or a heavy buffer. The 18" and 20" rifles do not need M4 ramps either.

Thats just off the top of my head. If I missed something I am sorry.

Raptor1Ronin
05-31-2011, 5:59 PM
very Nice!

Cokebottle
05-31-2011, 6:23 PM
Unless Riflegear bought the parts and assembled the BCG themselves and sold it in a Stag upper.
Not impossible. Seems very likely to me.
You obviously don't know the guys at Riflegear.
I admit as much. However, I do know the guys at Stag quite well. :)
I don't know anything about riflegear. I've made no comment about them, but if you represent them in any kind of official capacity, that would tell me plenty about them.
Uh, ya, you kinda did.
My comment was completely sarcastic... everyone on this forum knows that they would not do something like that.

Riflegear is one of several EBR dealers in Orange County, and is a highly respected member of the Calguns community.

And no, DP doesn't work for them... doesn't even live within 50 miles of them.

But this isn't the first time that RG has been dissed by a wannabe.
Another local EBR dealer made the claim (to a customer, not on the forum) that the "Riflegear" branded uppers were blems and 2nds from Daniel Defense production.

RMTactical
05-31-2011, 6:32 PM
Diesel doesn't represent Riflegear.com as far as I know anyhow. He is a pretty smart guy when it comes to AR15s... yes sometimes he comes off as a little hmm... forceful? Not sure what the right term is... but that's to be expected from someone his age and experience. (I respect my elders :P No I'm not a kid, i'm in my mid 30s) Many of us here at calguns do appreciate him.

Riflegear is the prime example of how a gun business is done right. Their customer service is top notch, their prices are fair/good for a brick and mortar and they stock a huge variety of rifles and parts. They never try to cheat anyone and are upfront about everything. No switching out of parts, always honest in their dealings.

I've yet to meet someone that had something to say about Riflegear.

As a disclaimer, I don't work for Riflegear, I don't even do a lot of my shopping there, but every time I do shop there, and every time I've spoken to the fine folks there, I was a very satisfied customer.

I'm not a HUGE gun nut... but i do make an average of about $5k-$8K in gun stuff a year if that's worth anything.

That all may be true. I've never dealt with them.

Uh, ya, you kinda did.
My comment was completely sarcastic... everyone on this forum knows that they would not do something like that.

Riflegear is one of several EBR dealers in Orange County, and is a highly respected member of the Calguns community.

And no, DP doesn't work for them... doesn't even live within 50 miles of them.

But this isn't the first time that RG has been dissed by a wannabe.
Another local EBR dealer made the claim (to a customer, not on the forum) that the "Riflegear" branded uppers were blems and 2nds from Daniel Defense production.

You and Diesel seems like prime examples of people that like to find things to complain about and pick fights. Sadly, I am willing to bet that I would agree on many things with Diesel, but I somehow doubt he cares enough to admit as much. He seems too busy looking for someone to fight with, I don't really feel like indulging him at this moment unfortunately.

Truth is, if you think that is me insulting or stating anything about riflegear, you are a fool.

All I am saying is what I know. Stag has never done anything like that, that would lead me personally to believe they forget to stake a random BCG. I'm not saying it's impossible, all I am saying is, I trust Stag more than any "random" company out there. And that is all riflegear is to me. Once again, not saying that Stag is above that. Just saying it seems unlikely. If that was unclear to you, maybe you should learn to read. :)

Never once did I speak ill of them like you seem to be insinuating. Nice try though.

However, I don't even see how it matters. A bad stake job is just as bad as a non-staking job. I stake my own keys personally anyways.

And to take it all a step further, how do we know that what you are claiming is legit? Not saying it isn't legit, but I would trust Stag over a random internet forum poster as well. You could be telling the truth, I don't know. That's the thing.

I can only say what I know based on my experience, and you can claim I am trying to sell you snake oil if you choose. Or, if you know me, and have seen me post on various forums over the years, maybe, just maybe, you would give me more credit than you do. As of now, you seem to be simply looking for a fight because someone disagreed with your "friend".

dieselpower
05-31-2011, 6:43 PM
^ And I will stick to my words...
1) Your link is NOT a review of Stags quality
2) You provide more erroneous information than good information
3) Your website is a sales pitch only
4) You don't give a poop about quality, the people of CA or this forum...you just want sales.

RMTactical
05-31-2011, 6:50 PM
Wrong!

:cheers2:

Thanks for playing! :)

rodeoflyer
05-31-2011, 7:37 PM
My upper came directly from Stag and is staked.....

Mine too.


There are guys who NEVER open the hood of their cars. My brother-in-law owns several BMWs and has NEVER popped the hood. Its been to the shop several times...but BMWs are the best cars...LOL

To own any firearm means you must understand it. You must know and practice solid Known good practices. There is a reason I link both TM9s in my signature. Every AR15 owners should have a copy of these.

TM9-1005-319-10 and TM9-1005-319-23. You need to down load these as an owner. What is written on the side of your rifle means ZERO, the knowledge you have on that rifle is paramount.

I did some time ago - thanks to you and your sig line. :cool:

Wrong!

:cheers2:

Thanks for playing! :)

Judging strictly off of your demeanor in this forum - I will NEVER buy a thing from you. Congratulations.

Cokebottle
05-31-2011, 7:44 PM
Like Bill W said...

Some California gun dealers would open a restaurant, name it "Sliced dead animals" and b!tch that they had no customers.

9-12
06-01-2011, 8:09 AM
I read this entire thread last night and felt like I needed a shower. What a pissing match. Mr Diesel, you were no more helpful than you were considerate or respectful. All I heard from you is "I know more than you, and I'm better than you." All you did was write out a bunch of technical babble that anyone with medium reading comprehension could learn (or copy and paste) in a day on the internet. If you were truly wanting to be helpful and not just braggadocios, you'd offer some insight like what the proper torque is on the gas key bolts. What the proper torque sequence is, what the proper torque lube is (you do know that the lube effects the torque, right?) and you'd offer some advice on how to check to see if the gas key is leaking or not. Do you use Loctite? Red or blue? Is that the lube, or do you use lube and Loctite? Are there better or worse screws to use? You might offer some installation tips, too. Is this an assembly that might benefit from a quick and easy lapping process? You might offer some other insight into the differences between manufacturers like who holds better tolerances on their parts or what company uses better machines or better materials to make their parts, other than barrels.
You have a long way to go before you criticize someone else for doing a lot of talking and not being informative. As a layman, I've gotten zero useful information out of anything you've posted as of yet except self congratulations and trivial blah blah blah. :sleeping:
JMO.

Cali-Shooter
06-01-2011, 8:23 AM
Stag Lowers are full of win.

End of Story.

Just-in
06-01-2011, 8:57 AM
Lowers sure uppers after reading diesels comments contrary to others I have my doubts if the 2H I wanted is a good buy or not.

Cokebottle
06-01-2011, 4:53 PM
Lowers sure uppers after reading diesels comments contrary to others I have my doubts if the 2H I wanted is a good buy or not.
Just get it.
If you're concerned about the bolt, you can get an absolutely beautiful chrome bolt from RRA for under $200.

Personally, I prefer the 1/9 twist since I don't shoot anything heavier (longer) than 62gr.

Just-in
06-04-2011, 3:10 PM
I wanted a 1:9 also I also want something I can be confident will serve me well for a long time.

Cokebottle
06-04-2011, 3:36 PM
I'd be interested in the source/specs for the Ruger SR556 1:9 barrel.

xxINKxx
06-04-2011, 4:24 PM
Don't care to read the novel sized posts that are arguments between 2 people.

I bought myself was a stag 2HT upper 3 years ago since stag is priced good for what you get with it (name brand free float rail, sights ect) With proper cleaning it has served me flawless for the past 3 years years, 5000k + rounds and climbing, and over 1k rounds of cruddy wolf ammo. Barrel still shoots very accuate in the 1" groups at 100 yards. The gas keys look like they had an attempt at being staked, and if they aren't, well they haven't came loose. If they did it's a few min job to correct it, and properly stake it myself with the correct punches.

Just buy one if you wish and it will work just fine. If something breaks down the road parts are cheap and easy to repair. People act like because a gun doesn't have M4 feedramps, or doesn't have staked gas keys it's complete junk or will suddenly explode in there gun safe.. Sheesh

calilivin
06-04-2011, 4:33 PM
I don't know if it matters at this point, but I bought a Stag model 1 at the Ventura gun show last year and the gas key is definitely staked. I am very convinced of the quality behind this rifle. I have put approxomatly 3,000 rounds of brass and steal cased and I have had no more then 5 FTE and only 1 FTF. Just my two cents from a satisfied Stag owner. PS: I have had at least 2, three hundred+ round sessions with no malfunctions.:rockon:

RMTactical
06-04-2011, 5:01 PM
Just buy one if you wish and it will work just fine. If something breaks down the road parts are cheap and easy to repair. People act like because a gun doesn't have M4 feedramps, or doesn't have staked gas keys it's complete junk or will suddenly explode in there gun safe.. Sheesh

Some people do. Not me. Those things are nice though and you might as well get them if you are concerned with reliability being #1.

However, like I stated, Stag is a very good value and their uppers are some of the better ones I have tried that don't fit those standards.

Average Joe American
06-19-2011, 9:40 PM
The gripes
1) Non-High Pressure tested Bolts.
2) Non-Magnetic particle tested Bolts
3) Non-Shot peen Bolts.

Shot peening adds to the strength of metal. If the non-shot peen part meets or exceeds the required strength..why do you care?
Tested bolts fail just as often as non-tested bolts. The heating and cooling of the Bolt along with the constant torsion of the cam causes failure at some point. The testing will only reveal flaws in a newly manufactured Bolt that will cause premature failure within a set amount of time due to the type of flaw those test reveal. If your Bolt last 500 rounds...it doesn't have that flaw. A tested "Good" Bolt can fail before or after 500 rds just the same as one NOT tested. A batch test is when a manufacture produces 100 Bolts and randomly tests 10 of them. If they all pass the test, the remaining 90 are sold. People gripe about batch testing. CMT/Stag normally only batch test unless you ask for a tested part.

4) Rifle Twist. People think because the military likes 1:7 that 1:7 is the best twist. Its not. 1:8 is the best twist rate. 1:9 is used by a majority of AR15 manufacturers since its the best twist for 55 gr (the most common round). The only reason the military went to 1:7 was due to them designing the 69gr round. 1:7, 1:8, 1:9 are all fine.

5) Barrel steel. Since someone found out a Mil-spec requiring a vendor to test any barrel made with 4150CMV was written and that Colt and FN comply with that mil-spec, they twisted that fact into a sales pitch saying that the 4150CMV was the best barrel steel. Its not. 4150CMV has a serious flaw. while it does provide the barrel the capability to heat past 1200 degrees and NOT melt until 1500 degrees. The flaw is if it is in fact heated past 1100 there is a increasing chance the steel will develop micro-cracks when the molecules form improper bonds. If this happens and the barrel is then heated past 500 degrees the barrel will explode. It can no long hold up under the pressures of the 5.56 or .223 round. Standard weapons grade steel of 4140CM does not have this flaw. It will not heat up past 1200 though, at about 1100 degrees it turns white hot and will just droop like a wet noodle. People have this mall ninja mindset that they will need suppressive fire combating hordes of zombies and need a 4150CMV for the extra heat resistance. They dont understand that if you heat a barrel to this level you MUST replace it. The wear factory when heated really plays a slight role as well. The extra carbon content of 4150 is minuscule at best. The reason the Military wrote Mil-B-11595E was to insure anyone offering a 4150CMV did so under a standard. The military doesn't require 4140CM to meet that standard due to the fact you really cant screw up 4140 like you can screw up 4150CMV. There is no reason to test 4140CM. Most barrel manufacture offer 4150CMV because the customer is always right...they realize there is little chance a semi-auto is going to over heat and cause an explosion unless the user is trying to do that. In that instance the user is abusing the barrel and that in itself clears the manufacture of all liability. This is the same logic with 1:7... the manufactures dont want to educate, they want to sell...so they offer 4150CMV 1:7 and use the "just like the military" sales pitch.

6) M4 feed ramps. The M4 has a fast cyclic rate due to the gas port location. That full auto cyclic rate needs a extended ramp for the rounds to load properly due to the extra mass of the BCG and Buffer. The force that the BCG is shoving the round into the chamber causes the nose to jump. Unless you have a F/A BCG and a Heavy buffer you do not need M4 ramps. Its all about the balance of mass forcing the round into the chamber. If you have a standard gas system, you don't need a F/A BCG or a heavy buffer. The 18" and 20" rifles do not need M4 ramps either.

Thats just off the top of my head. If I missed something I am sorry.


Sorry to bring up an old thread but I read this and was wondering if this comment was made before Stag offered the plus package? I see the gripes...and they are covered by Stag in the plus package. As for the rest of the comments it looks like Stag covers all of those too since DP is saying 4140, 1/9 twist and M4 feed ramps arent really needed by the average firearms enthusiast. And I agree with this myself.
http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i182/mixflip/StagArmspluspackage.jpg

dieselpower
06-20-2011, 12:34 AM
Sorry to bring up an old thread but I read this and was wondering if this comment was made before Stag offered the plus package? I see the gripes...and they are covered by Stag in the plus package. As for the rest of the comments it looks like Stag covers all of those too since DP is saying 4140, 1/9 twist and M4 feed ramps aren't really needed by the average firearms enthusiast. And I agree with this myself.
http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i182/mixflip/StagArmspluspackage.jpg

Post #20 explains that to this OP.

The whole thing was he titled his webpage "quality review" as a buzz word to drum up sales and offered zero quality review, only a sales pitch to sell. he could careless about a true quality review or factual information.

An actual quality review would piss people off..the chart monkeys would scream about non-existent standards and the Stag guys would scream about their single firearm not needing to meet that standard. In any case you don't sell rifles with a quality review...because you expose flaws, piss off salesman and customers alike.

Every single AR15 has the same flaws in one way or another. The same as every AK has them too. Its only in the mind of people who sell firearms they do not. Those of us who actually use firearms understand flaws exist in all of them.

Average Joe American
06-20-2011, 6:13 AM
I agree all firearms have their own set of pro's & con's and we have to just educate ourselves on what features we want and dont want. I have never been brand loyal. I buy what I feel is best for me based on as much facts I can find regardless of the brand. I wish consumer reports evaluated firearms like they do other products. I love unbiased tests on multiple brands. It really helps the consumer.

Off topic question - Knowing your experience and background, what AR15's get your thumbs up? (DieselPower)

moulton
06-20-2011, 7:49 AM
Can someone confirm the lifetime warranty on stag arms barrels?

dieselpower
06-20-2011, 11:57 AM
I agree all firearms have their own set of pro's & con's and we have to just educate ourselves on what features we want and don't want. I have never been brand loyal. I buy what I feel is best for me based on as much facts I can find regardless of the brand. I wish consumer reports evaluated firearms like they do other products. I love unbiased tests on multiple brands. It really helps the consumer.

Off topic question - Knowing your experience and background, what AR15's get your thumbs up? (DieselPower)
My post #68

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

^ I will tell you what AR15 is the best.
1) Fire 500 rounds, to 1000 rounds, no major stoppage past immediate actions
2) No more than 5 immediate action clears per 100 rounds
3) 1.5 MOA from a rest, 2 MOA with cheap ammo
4) No maintenance actions needed before 1000 rounds

I don't give an "F", what roll mark is on your lower. My Colt was a POS, I have read dozens of, "my BCM is broke threads" I have read dozens of "My Stag is broke" threads...

There are guys who NEVER open the hood of their cars. My brother-in-law owns several BMWs and has NEVER popped the hood. Its been to the shop several times...but BMWs are the best cars...LOL

To own any firearm means you must understand it. You must know and practice solid Known good practices. There is a reason I link both TM9s in my signature. Every AR15 owners should have a copy of these.

TM9-1005-319-10 and TM9-1005-319-23. You need to down load these as an owner. What is written on the side of your rifle means ZERO, the knowledge you have on that rifle is paramount

The whole debate about ramps, steel and QA is moot.

I can talk about this over and over again, and still people prefer to read sales pitches from salesman then actual facts from armorers, gunsmiths, machinist and Soldiers who actually use firearms in combat...or even Hunters and shooters who have used the firearm for decades or more.

Bottom-line, That $1500 LaRue / Colt / DD / BCM AR15 is just as much a POS as that $400 Vulcan when neither will fire more than 100 rounds without a serious jam.... on the same note, that $800 Stag, DTi or CMMG which runs flawless is 1 billion times better than a BCM, Colt, DD that constantly jams.

Stick with KNOWN good manufactures for a KNOWN good rifle. Then understand all rifles must be used and maintained properly. Ramps, QA and Mil-spec Steel DO NOT add to the reliability of a rifle AFTER that rifle has proven itself as running properly.

I will agree that QA testing gives the buyer a higher chance to receive a rifle that has a greater CHANCE to run properly...but it doesnt...
1) Guarantee proper function, (just a greater chance)
2) The lack of testing doesn't mean less chance of proper function.

RMTactical
06-20-2011, 8:48 PM
The whole thing was he titled his webpage "quality review" as a buzz word to drum up sales...

Yeah, because you can see that I sell so much Stag products. :rolleyes:

Actually, I used to, but not so much anymore. It's amusing how angry you seem to be about the whole thing though. :)

What about all the other things I review on my various blogs from time to time? Am I trying to drum up sales for myself on BCM, Spikes, or even the non-AR15 related things such as 1911's and Glocks?

stvblm
08-14-2011, 4:03 PM
My son just recently bought a Stag 8 and it has M4 feed ramps. I sent a pic of the receiver to Stag and they confirmed it having M4 ramps. I also just purchased a 2H upper which also has the same ramp set up. I questioned if this was new production standards and was told rifle ramps were standard. If so why did I we get two recently produced products with the same characteristics. Photo attached i think

Joe
08-14-2011, 4:14 PM
My son just recently bought a Stag 8 and it has M4 feed ramps. I sent a pic of the receiver to Stag and they confirmed it having M4 ramps. I also just purchased a 2H upper which also has the same ramp set up. I questioned if this was new production standards and was told rifle ramps were standard. If so why did I we get two recently produced products with the same characteristics. Photo attached i think

Pic is kind of bad focus and angle. Check for yourself. The barrel is definitely m4 ramped

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=193

dieselpower
08-14-2011, 4:21 PM
^ those ramps appear shallow, but more than standard rifle ramps. Most M4 ramps are very pronounced.

Search the net for the pic from AR15barrels.com His ramps are normal and deep into the upper.

SanPedroShooter
08-14-2011, 4:58 PM
I was reading the M16 operators manual in your sig and it keeps warning the reader not to change out BCG's. What is the reasoning behind this? It also mentions that switching charging handles will affect your zero. Comments?

Epic thread by the way... I went with an LMT M4 upper and bolt from PSA;)