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BayAreaShooter
05-25-2011, 6:37 PM
Not trying to thread jack I just need a quick answer from the knife experts. Would this be legal to carry in say a change pocket. The reason I ask is it has a thumb stud but no pocket clip. I did a little review if you want to take a look I will add the link.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=432596

http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad112/ChadV_2010/DSC01559.jpg?t=1305326725

Cokebottle
05-25-2011, 7:10 PM
Absolutely legal.


But.... why would you want one so small when equally legal concealed in your pocket is this....

http://personal.linkline.com/rlockyer/XD9/rajahopen.jpg

BayAreaShooter
05-25-2011, 7:19 PM
Absolutely legal.


But.... why would you want one so small when equally legal concealed in your pocket is this....

Can you please provide a link were it says it is legal. In my review I stated that it is not a primary carry it is carried along with my Spyderco.

redrex
05-25-2011, 7:21 PM
http://www.ninehundred.com/~equalccw/knifelaw.html[/QUOTE]

We need to make this link a sticky. Once a week someone is asking this question.

Cokebottle
05-25-2011, 7:29 PM
Can you please provide a link were it says it is legal. In my review I stated that it is not a primary carry it is carried along with my Spyderco.
If it is not prohibited, it is legal.

You won't find PC indicating that something is legal unless it is an exemption to something normally illegal.

Example: The CVC does not say that it is legal to drive with the windows down.

The CVC does say that you shall stop on a red light.
The CVC also says that, unless posted as prohibited, you may make a right turn on a red after coming to a complete stop.

What is illegal:
Concealed "dirk or dagger"

"Dirk or dagger" is defined as a "stabbing implement", but it does not apply to folding knives WHEN they are folded.
Your Kershaw, open, may not be carried concealed.
Folded, my Cold Steel Rajah is legal concealed.

A fixed blade must be carried openly.


That covers concealed/open carry.
The second issue covers your apparent concern about the thumb stud.
What is illegal is a knife that opens automatically with the press of a button, or falls open on it's own via gravity. These fall under California's "switchblade" laws.
Assisted openers are legal, so long as they have a "bias toward closure"
As to the thumb stud, it is a fixed part of the blade. A knife is legal so long as it opens by applying pressure to the blade.


That said, there is a CHP office in Alameda County that has indicated that they will arrest for any thumb-stud knife.... can't wait until those start hitting the courts. 75% of the folding knives sold in the last 10 years use that design.

ke6guj
05-25-2011, 7:33 PM
Can you please provide a link were it says it is legal. In my review I stated that it is not a primary carry it is carried along with my Spyderco.

CA law doesn't work that way. everything is legal unless specifically stated as being illegal. Nowhere in CA's knive laws are lengths mentioned (except for switchblade laws). If it is legal as a 3" folder, it is legal as a 6" or 9" folder as well.

BayAreaShooter
05-25-2011, 7:59 PM
If it is not prohibited, it is legal.

You won't find PC indicating that something is legal unless it is an exemption to something normally illegal.

Example: The CVC does not say that it is legal to drive with the windows down.

The CVC does say that you shall stop on a red light.
The CVC also says that, unless posted as prohibited, you may make a right turn on a red after coming to a complete stop.

What is illegal:
Concealed "dirk or dagger"

"Dirk or dagger" is defined as a "stabbing implement", but it does not apply to folding knives WHEN they are folded.
Your Kershaw, open, may not be carried concealed.
Folded, my Cold Steel Rajah is legal concealed.

A fixed blade must be carried openly.


That covers concealed/open carry.
The second issue covers your apparent concern about the thumb stud.
What is illegal is a knife that opens automatically with the press of a button, or falls open on it's own via gravity. These fall under California's "switchblade" laws.
Assisted openers are legal, so long as they have a "bias toward closure"
As to the thumb stud, it is a fixed part of the blade. A knife is legal so long as it opens by applying pressure to the blade.


That said, there is a CHP office in Alameda County that has indicated that they will arrest for any thumb-stud knife.... can't wait until those start hitting the courts. 75% of the folding knives sold in the last 10 years use that design.


Alright thank you for clearing that up. In regards to what I have put in bold. :eek::eek::eek: Is he trying to get the city sued or something. How can he blatantly announce he is going to arrest people for something not illegal.

Cokebottle
05-25-2011, 8:06 PM
Alright thank you for clearing that up. In regards to what I have put in bold. :eek::eek::eek: Is he trying to get the city sued or something. How can he blatantly announce he is going to arrest people for something not illegal.
That is exactly what is going to happen.

Keep in mind that there is no state preemption on knife laws.
LA City and LA County have more strict ordinances covering open carry blade length, and other localities have similar restrictions.

This thread so far (other than a mention of LA above) has dealt with California State law.

Surprisingly, when it comes to knife laws, California is actually VERY good compared to many "free" states, including Texas.

retired
05-25-2011, 10:08 PM
BAS, stating, "not trying to thread jack," doesn't make it so, since that is exactly what you did. Your thread jack in the other thread resulted in 7 posts that were off topic from the Original Poster in the other thread. Next time, begin your own thread please.

I moved your post and the others to make a new thread instead of just deleting them, since they did have valuable info.

Librarian
05-25-2011, 10:59 PM
http://www.ninehundred.com/~equalccw/knifelaw.html

We need to make this link a sticky. Once a week someone is asking this question.

While Jim March's post is quite important, it's also dated.

Try this one: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=2289918&postcount=6

Samuelx
05-25-2011, 11:38 PM
Also, IIRC (people vs plumlee, 2008), carrying a concealed switchblade prohibited by 653k PC (misdemeanor) can also get you charged with 12020(a)(4) PC (felony)... AFAIK, there haven't been any changes to that...

BigDogatPlay
05-26-2011, 6:13 AM
Keep in mind that there is no state preemption on knife laws. LA City and LA County have more strict ordinances covering open carry blade length, and other localities have similar restrictions.

^^^This^^^ In California this is the big trap regarding knives. Local authority can and will make restrictions above and beyond those in the Penal Code. Know your local ordinances where you live and work. Many cities and counties have their local ordinances on line and I encourage anyone carrying knives to familiarize themselves.

For an Alameda CHP guy to say they'll arrest on folders with thumb studs... well, if Alameda County has a local ordinance of some type that fits, they surely could arrest, couldn't they.

Surprisingly, when it comes to knife laws, California is actually VERY good compared to many "free" states, including Texas.

Aside from switchblades, gravity knives and some other gimmick blades (a butterfly knife.... really?) this is actually pretty true.

BayAreaShooter
05-26-2011, 12:03 PM
BAS, stating, "not trying to thread jack," doesn't make it so, since that is exactly what you did. Your thread jack in the other thread resulted in 7 posts that were off topic from the Original Poster in the other thread. Next time, begin your own thread please.

I moved your post and the others to make a new thread instead of just deleting them, since they did have valuable info.

Thank you for moving it to its own thread.

RedMongooSe
05-26-2011, 8:19 PM
In LA, we have some muni codes against knives... so it depends on the county your in

Cokebottle
05-26-2011, 9:17 PM
^^^This^^^ In California this is the big trap regarding knives. Local authority can and will make restrictions above and beyond those in the Penal Code. Know your local ordinances where you live and work. Many cities and counties have their local ordinances on line and I encourage anyone carrying knives to familiarize themselves.
Most local ordinances that I have found have exceptions for legitimate employment and recreational activity.
Even though LA limits the length of OC fixed blades, it could be justifiable to open carry a Ka-Bar on your belt.
And of course, when on the road, "safe passage" applies.

Of course, not all localities may have the "safe passage" allowance.

Notorious
05-26-2011, 10:27 PM
So what can you carry in LA county? I've seen quite a few OMG types OC their Bowie knives.

Cokebottle
05-27-2011, 4:10 PM
So what can you carry in LA county? I've seen quite a few OMG types OC their Bowie knives.
"Safe Passage" generally covers them. I can strap a machete onto my belt out here in the IE and ride through LACO to Kern County without violating any laws.
I personally open-carried an 8" blade 24/7 for over 10 years everywhere from Phoenix to San Diego to Oakland and even Montana. Never had an issue with it anywhere. I shelved it in favor of a pocket folder, and hung up my "ride whip" a few years ago after Riverside SD started cracking down on a particular MC that is prominent in my area. I'm not a member, but I was a member of an RC until they disbanded in 2009 and I wore the RC's patch (and it wasn't Southern Cruisers). Some people were being arrested under PC12020 for the ride whips under the same statute that can make carrying a chain with a lock on it a felony.
The belt knife was simply an "attention getter" that I didn't need, and as a wise old biker told me, anything I can do with a belt knife, I can do with a good 3" folder and remain legal everywhere in California.

Notorious
05-27-2011, 4:14 PM
So I can wear one of these across my back as I ride my HOG? SWEET!

http://www.coldsteel-uk.com/store/two-handed-katana-machete-97thk-full-1.jpg

Samuelx
05-27-2011, 5:49 PM
Where is the "safe passage" exemption written in either CA penal or LA County code?

Cokebottle
05-27-2011, 6:10 PM
Where is the "safe passage" exemption written in either CA penal or LA County code?
Nothing in the California PC.

Here's the Los Angeles City (not County) code:
Los Angeles Municipal Code SEC. 55.10. CARRY KNIVES OR DAGGERS IN PLAIN VIEW PROHIBITED. (Added by Ord. No. 162,995, Eff. 1/7/88.)
(a) As used in this section, the term knife or dagger shall include any knife, dirk or dagger having a blade 3 inches or more in length, any ice pick or similar sharp tool, any straight edge razor or any razor blade fitted to a handle.
(b) No person shall wear or carry in plain view any knife or dagger upon any public street or other public place or in any place open to the public.
(c) The prohibitions of this section shall not apply where a person is wearing or carrying a knife or dagger for use in a lawful occupation, for lawful recreational purposes, or as a recognized religious practice, or while the person is traveling to or returning from participation in such activity. And here's county
LOS ANGELES COUNTY CODE

13.62.010 Knives and daggers defined.

As used in this chapter, the terms “knives and daggers” shall include any knife having a blade of three inches or more in length; any spring-blade, switch-blade or snap-blade knife; any knife any blade of which is automatically released by a spring mechanism or other mechanical device; any ice pick or similar sharp stabbing tool; any straight-edge razor or any razor blade fitted to a handle. (Ord. 11915 § 1, 1979.)

13.62.020 Carrying knives and daggers in plain view prohibited.

It is unlawful for any person to carry on his person, in plain view, any knife or dagger. (Ord. 11915 § 2, 1979.)

13.62.030 Exemptions to chapter applicability.

The foregoing restrictions shall not be deemed to prohibit the carrying of ordinary tools or equipment for use in a lawful occupation or for the purpose of lawful recreation, or where the carrying of a knife or dagger is a recognized religious practice. (Ord. 11915 § 3, 1979.)

I know I have seen the "safe passage" section for both county and city, but I'm not finding it now (unless it was removed?)

What is legal though, is if it is used for lawful employment or recreation. "Recreation" is a pretty wide catch-all.

Notorious
05-27-2011, 6:27 PM
Well, the throngs of urban mall ninja survivalist hikers that all have the little folders with the clip showing out of their pants pockets in LA City and County have a lot of recreation-ing to do because none of them really have a work related purpose, I would surmise.

Cokebottle
05-27-2011, 6:35 PM
Well, the throngs of urban mall ninja survivalist hikers that all have the little folders with the clip showing out of their pants pockets in LA City and County have a lot of recreation-ing to do because none of them really have a work related purpose, I would surmise.
LOL!!!!

And I carry three folders... two with pocket clips... and as a traffic signal technician, I use them every day.

But it's been discussed at length, and it seems that knife laws are not the same as gun laws, wherein "visible" is never concealed.
I suspect that there is case law that states that an exposed pocket clip or the end of the knife being visible at the pocket clip does not constitute "open carry"

Guns go the other way... and in a very unfriendly manner too.
If you are UOCing and your jacket falls over the grip, you're in violation of 12025 (similarly for "dirk or dagger")

Notorious
05-27-2011, 7:01 PM
I always thought you can't conceal a pocket knife by putting it inside your pocket so that's why the clip has to show. Oh well, what do I know about knives.

ke6guj
05-27-2011, 7:13 PM
I know I have seen the "safe passage" section for both county and city, but I'm not finding it now (unless it was removed?)
all.

its probably writen in the same location as the exemption that allows CA LEOs to carry switchblades and for CA knife dealers to sell those switchblades to them.

Cokebottle
05-27-2011, 7:25 PM
I always thought you can't conceal a pocket knife by putting it inside your pocket so that's why the clip has to show. Oh well, what do I know about knives.
Oh no...

The only knife that is illegal to fully conceal is a fixed-blade (or a folder with the blade opened).

If it is a folder, it does not fall under the "dirk or dagger" description and may be concealed.

Cokebottle
05-27-2011, 7:25 PM
its probably writen in the same location as the exemption that allows CA LEOs to carry switchblades and for CA knife dealers to sell those switchblades to them.
So you saw it too? ;)

Notorious
05-27-2011, 7:31 PM
Oh no...

The only knife that is illegal to fully conceal is a fixed-blade (or a folder with the blade opened).

If it is a folder, it does not fall under the "dirk or dagger" description and may be concealed.

Dang it... I so much wanted to ccw my 2-handed katana machete!:chris:

Cokebottle
05-27-2011, 7:38 PM
Dang it... I so much wanted to ccw my 2-handed katana machete!:chris:
I can ;)

http://personal.linkline.com/rlockyer/XD9/rajahopen.jpg
http://personal.linkline.com/rlockyer/XD9/rajahfold.jpg

Notorious
05-27-2011, 7:54 PM
I used to carry my 6" Cold Steel Vaquero, but man... that thing scares me. It literally can hack off a wrist I think if I get the swing right.

Cokebottle
05-27-2011, 7:57 PM
I used to carry my 6" Cold Steel Vaquero, but man... that thing scares me. It literally can hack off a wrist I think if I get the swing right.
Ya, I carry a Ti-Light 4" for when I need something REALLY sharp.
My regular-use blade is my SOG Vulcan.
My "junker" is a $30 Gerber. I use that one for cutting grass and dirt around pull-box lids, and for cleaning the lip inside the pull-box before I put the lid back on, so it's constantly getting dragged on concrete.

Notorious
05-27-2011, 8:04 PM
I used to EDC my Kershaw but it got dinged up a bit and it was a nice gift from a bud so I put it away and now I EDC my $10 S&W folder which I sharpened myself with a $12 carbide sharpener that made it as sharp as anything else I have even if it doesn't hold the edge as well as some of the more expensive knives I have.

I had the Cold Steel Harpy and lost one on duty, bought another one, lost that too, and I gave up. I wasn't meant to ever have a Harpy in my life. So I just decided to buy the full sized Cold Steel Double Agent II and go fixed blade.

Will Goes Boing
05-27-2011, 9:04 PM
I used to EDC my Kershaw but it got dinged up a bit and it was a nice gift from a bud so I put it away and now I EDC my $10 S&W folder which I sharpened myself with a $12 carbide sharpener that made it as sharp as anything else I have even if it doesn't hold the edge as well as some of the more expensive knives I have.

I had the Cold Steel Harpy and lost one on duty, bought another one, lost that too, and I gave up. I wasn't meant to ever have a Harpy in my life. So I just decided to buy the full sized Cold Steel Double Agent II and go fixed blade.

Holy run-on sentence batman Yoda master.

I EDC a tom brown tracker on the small of my back.... and I wear an eye patch. :chris: :TFH: :D :p

Notorious
05-28-2011, 9:39 AM
Holy run-on sentence batman Yoda master.

I EDC a tom brown tracker on the small of my back.... and I wear an eye patch. :chris: :TFH: :D :p

You can't unsat me, boot!

I'm the FTO and I can never be wrong!

Will Goes Boing
05-28-2011, 9:54 AM
You can't unsat me, boot!

I'm the FTO and I can never be wrong!

Damn I guess you caught that before I edited it. You are a slick one Yoda Master, nothing gets past you. :cool:

Notorious
05-28-2011, 10:18 AM
Damn I guess you caught that before I edited it. You are a slick one Yoda Master, nothing gets past you. :cool:

Just for that, you're buying me a beer at Hooters right now, boot!

Will Goes Boing
05-28-2011, 10:56 AM
Just for that, you're buying me a beer at Hooters right now, boot!

Jurassic! :D

Notorious
05-28-2011, 11:17 AM
She only works Wed-Fri, bud.

sandman21
05-28-2011, 1:27 PM
^^^This^^^ In California this is the big trap regarding knives. Local authority can and will make restrictions above and beyond those in the Penal Code. Know your local ordinances where you live and work. Many cities and counties have their local ordinances on line and I encourage anyone carrying knives to familiarize themselves.

For an Alameda CHP guy to say they'll arrest on folders with thumb studs... well, if Alameda County has a local ordinance of some type that fits, they surely could arrest, couldn't they.


No Alameda ordinance about thumb studs. It appears that the ordinance is about minor possession (http://library.municode.com/html/16425/level2/TIT9PUPEMOWE_CH9.12FIDAWE.html)

Found this while searching about knifes laws. Has all the knife laws in the US, should help people stay legal.

US Knife Laws PDF (http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/USKnife.pdf)

Samuelx
05-28-2011, 3:57 PM
Jurassic! :D

She only works Wed-Fri, bud.

Does she drive a white mercedes?

Notorious
05-28-2011, 5:17 PM
Does she drive a white mercedes?

Not sure. Didn't want to sit around waiting for her to get off work like I was a stalker or something.

Samuelx
05-28-2011, 7:42 PM
heh heh heh

Notorious
05-28-2011, 8:46 PM
If you want to throw back a few there, let me know. I'm always game for that place.