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View Full Version : Under/Over/Side folder AK's legal in Cali?


WiKDMoNKY
05-23-2011, 9:46 PM
I was thinking about building and under-folder AK and my buddy says its not legal in CA if its under 30". I thought it was firing length that had to be 30".

Who is right?

Thanks in advance!

djcrapilicious
05-23-2011, 10:13 PM
From number 9 on the flowchart: Is the rifle's overall length less than 30 inches? If less than 30 inches, can the rifle be fired in the shortest configuration?

If you make it so it cannot be fired when folded or becomes less than 30 inches you would be fine. The Kel-tec SU-16 would be a good example.

tujungatoes
05-23-2011, 10:20 PM
http://calnra.com/cgi-bin/flowchart.cgi The flowchart. Follow it.

JayBeeJay
05-23-2011, 10:47 PM
You'll have to lock or pin the stock to get an OAL of 30". Either that or put a long *** flash suppressor/brake or fake can and pin it to the barrel. I would go with the locked/pinned stock.

Ulyses83
05-23-2011, 10:51 PM
http://calnra.com/cgi-bin/flowchart.cgi The flowchart. Follow it.

Interactive........:eek: very NICE:D

SJgunguy24
05-23-2011, 10:52 PM
You'll have to lock or pin the stock to get an OAL of 30". Either that or put a long *** flash suppressor/brake or fake can and pin it to the barrel. I would go with the locked/pinned stock.

Are you 1000% sure of that? Where in the law does it require any permanence to meet overall length for state law?






If you want a hint........it doesn't.

Stone
05-23-2011, 11:03 PM
Are you 1000% sure of that? Where in the law does it require any permanence to meet overall length for state law?

If you want a hint........it doesn't.

The law does require that the rifle cannot be reduced to an overall length of less than 26 or 30 inches (depending on features) while remaining operable. Thus, because a folding stock does not render the weapon inoperable, one would need to either permanently fix the stock open or extend the barrel to such a length that the overall length does not become less than 26/30 inches with the stock folded. This is not an issue with collapsible stocks because they generally do not collapse enough to bring the rifle under the 30 length restriction because of the minimum 16" barrel length.

69Mach1
05-23-2011, 11:07 PM
There is no permanence requirement in this instance.

SJgunguy24
05-23-2011, 11:08 PM
The law does require that the rifle cannot be reduced to an overall length of less than 26 or 30 inches (depending on features) while remaining operable. Thus, because a folding stock does not render the weapon inoperable, one would need to either permanently fix the stock open or extend the barrel to such a length that the overall length does not become less than 26/30 inches with the stock folded.

Show me the law where it states any thing used to make overall length must be permenently attached or pinned.

There isn't one, there is no requirement for a permenent anything. You can slap a bayonet on the muzzle and your in compliance. If a cop removes that bayonet, he has now commited a felony and manufactured an AW. The same applies to folding stocks. Trust me, I know these laws.

andrewj
05-23-2011, 11:11 PM
Either add an extended muzzle device like the pic below (and no, it does not need to be pinned)

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f113/RossRinSD/gun%20stuff/UnderfolderandVest-1.jpg

or fix the stock using 69Mach1's tutorial:

https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=185188

WiKDMoNKY
05-24-2011, 9:46 AM
Can some owners of AK folders post some pics of their rifles and/or how/what they did to stay in compliance of the law?

Thanks in advance!

69Mach1
05-24-2011, 9:49 AM
Can some owners of AK folders post some pics of their rifles and/or how/what they did to stay in compliance of the law?

Thanks in advance!

fix the stock using 69Mach1's tutorial:

https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=185188
...

WiKDMoNKY
05-24-2011, 10:21 AM
So, the stock has to be pinned for this to work? I would like to build an under folder and not have to pin the stock. Wouldn't the stock block the action from working when it was folded?

...

cmace22
05-24-2011, 10:34 AM
No, underfolders and side folders can be fired when folded.

supertrooper
05-24-2011, 8:22 PM
whats the lenght of a under or side folder with the stock folded?

cmace22
05-24-2011, 9:02 PM
whats the lenght of a under or side folder with the stock folded?

25"-27" depending I believe.

WiKDMoNKY
05-24-2011, 9:33 PM
Looks like 25". That would be a pretty long MB to make that work. Damn California!!!

Weight
4.3 kg (9.5 lb) with empty magazine

Length
870 mm (34.3 in) fixed wooden stock
875 mm (34.4 in) folding stock extended
645 mm (25.4 in) stock folded

Barrel length
415 mm (16.3 in)

WiKDMoNKY
05-24-2011, 9:44 PM
Who makes the MB on your AK? What kind of receiver are you using? Did you have to drill the holes for the folder?

Either add an extended muzzle device like the pic below (and no, it does not need to be pinned)

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f113/RossRinSD/gun%20stuff/UnderfolderandVest-1.jpg

or fix the stock using 69Mach1's tutorial:

https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=185188

Carsgunsandchics
05-24-2011, 10:09 PM
On my Polish Underfolder I went with a Russian night vision flash hider "like a M14" with a extended rear sling plate like a VM-1 plate. It measures out to 30 1/4" total folded.

WiKDMoNKY
05-24-2011, 11:06 PM
Pic?

On my Polish Underfolder I went with a Russian night vision flash hider "like a M14" with a extended rear sling plate like a VM-1 plate. It measures out to 30 1/4" total folded.

Josh3239
05-24-2011, 11:40 PM
WiKDMoNKY, there are a large variety of fake suppressors/flash hiders/muzzle brakes to extend your barrel. Check out these websites...

Extended brake:
http://usmachinegun.com/products.php?cat=25
http://akpartskits.com/cart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=5_12&products_id=15&zenid=951065f3a69a6240db6005ed9215ffbb
http://cncwarrior.com/comersus/store/comersus_viewItem.asp?idProduct=215
http://cncwarrior.com/comersus/store/comersus_viewItem.asp?idProduct=95

Fake Suppressor:
http://www.ftfindustries.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=FI&Product_Code=AK-FS&Category_Code=AKAC
http://aa-ok.com/ak-ak47-akm-ak74-parts/ak-faux-silencer-flash-hider.html

Barrel extender:
http://cncwarrior.com/comersus/store/comersus_viewItem.asp?idProduct=53
http://cncwarrior.com/comersus/store/comersus_viewItem.asp?idProduct=170

andrewj
05-25-2011, 12:26 AM
Who makes the MB on your AK? What kind of receiver are you using? Did you have to drill the holes for the folder?

Not my rifle. Contact RossRinSD, I believe its his.

Stone
05-25-2011, 6:59 AM
Show me the law where it states any thing used to make overall length must be permenently attached or pinned.

There isn't one, there is no requirement for a permenent anything. You can slap a bayonet on the muzzle and your in compliance. If a cop removes that bayonet, he has now commited a felony and manufactured an AW. The same applies to folding stocks. Trust me, I know these laws.


PC 12020
(2)As used in this section, a "short-barreled rifle" means any of the following:

(A)A rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length.

(B)A rifle with an overall length of less than 26 inches.

(C)Any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if that weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length.

(D)Any device which may be readily restored to fire a fixed cartridge which, when so restored, is a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C), inclusive.


There it is...by PC 12020 (2)(D), any rifle which may be readily restored to a short-barreled rifle, is by definition also a short-barreled rifle. A removal muzzle device is readily removable as it requires no tools...

The Calguns flowchart (http://www.calguns.net/caawid/flowchart.pdf), although not a legal document, also states that the device must be a permanent attachment:
"Short Barreled Rifle . Measured from bolt face to the end of the barrel or a permanently installed muzzle device."

cmace22
05-25-2011, 7:33 AM
There it is...by PC 12020 (2)(D), any rifle which may be readily restored to a short-barreled rifle, is by definition also a short-barreled rifle. A removal muzzle device is readily removable as it requires no tools...

The Calguns flowchart (http://www.calguns.net/caawid/flowchart.pdf), although not a legal document, also states that the device must be a permanent attachment:


PC 12020
(2)As used in this section, a "short-barreled rifle" means any of the following:

(A)A rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length.

(B)A rifle with an overall length of less than 26 inches.

(C)Any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if that weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length.

(D)Any device which may be readily restored to fire a fixed cartridge which, when so restored, is a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C), inclusive.

When so restored implies after restoring it correct. So if you dont restore it your GTG. I dont read anything here about needing to be permanent for OAL.

ke6guj
05-25-2011, 7:35 AM
There it is...by PC 12020 (2)(D), any rifle which may be readily restored to a short-barreled rifle, is by definition also a short-barreled rifle. A removal muzzle device is readily removable as it requires no tools..."(D)Any device which may be readily restored to fire a fixed cartridge which, when so restored, is a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C), inclusive. " Key words are "to fire a fixed cartridge". they are talking about a box of parts to make a working firearm, not a firearm that is already working. If all the parts to "make length" had to be permanetnly attached, existing firearms designs in CA would already be considered SBRs. I dunno if I would go with a removable bayonet to make length, but a screwed down tight muzzle brake should be fine. There are legal rifles in CA that have components, that once removed, bring the firearm below 26" that aren't considered SBRs in CA.


The Calguns flowchart (http://www.calguns.net/caawid/flowchart.pdf), although not a legal document, also states that the device must be a permanent attachment:

that is talking about making 16" for the barrel lenght, not for OAL.

Chunky_lover
05-25-2011, 7:57 AM
one would say that little retainer pin on the ak muzzle acts as a locking device. when activated you can not unscrew the muzzle device at all, until you depress the pin which depending on the muzzle tip may be very hard without a small tool


I went ahead and locked my folder, I didnt like the muzzle tip, was to long and didnt look right

Stone
05-25-2011, 9:56 AM
When so restored implies after restoring it correct. So if you dont restore it your GTG. I dont read anything here about needing to be permanent for OAL.

The law doesn't tell you what you need to do to be legal, it just tells you what things are illegal.

PC 12020 (2) says that if the rifle meets the criteria of any of the subsections then it is a SBR.

PC 12020 (2)(D) is a subsection, and it categorizes any rifle that may be readily restored to a state that satisfies (A) (B) or (C).

Subsection (B) says that any rifle with an overall length less than 26 inches is a SBR.

Therefore, according to section (D), any rifle that can be readily modified to an overall length of less than 26 inches will be classified as a SBR as if the overall length is less than 26 inches, even if it is longer than 26 inches in its current state.

Briancnelson
05-25-2011, 10:35 AM
I think you are wrong about the permanence thing. I believe the CalGuns flowchart is correct about needing a pin or some sort of permanently attached extension. More importantly, I am sure the cops believe that and will arrest you for owning a weapon without those features. IAAL ("I am a lawyer").

None of us agree with the laws, but if you are going to challenge them, line up your legal team first and do it on purpose.

Doing it out of stubbornness without preparation can only set up crappy precedents we'll have to fight down the line.

NorCalK9.com
05-25-2011, 11:34 AM
Glad this was posted my next build now will be an ak74 sidefolder now need to find a kit.

cmace22
05-25-2011, 11:58 AM
Glad this was posted my next build now will be an ak74 sidefolder now need to find a kit.


Gunbroker or another forum might turn something up. The SF kits Ive seen are pricey and rare.

Carsgunsandchics
05-29-2011, 9:29 AM
Pic?

Here's few
http://i1036.photobucket.com/albums/a442/64dartwagon/2011051021a.jpg
http://i1036.photobucket.com/albums/a442/64dartwagon/2011051017a.jpg

Chunky_lover
05-29-2011, 9:44 AM
hey that is a nice setup
ive seen one with a bolt welded on the receiver but this is alot cleaner look with the attached muzzle tip. So that rear metal plate doesnt have to be so long

Carsgunsandchics
05-29-2011, 9:50 AM
http://i1036.photobucket.com/albums/a442/64dartwagon/201105106.jpg
http://i1036.photobucket.com/albums/a442/64dartwagon/201105108.jpg

ir0nclash86
05-29-2011, 10:22 AM
sexxy

jojo8080
05-29-2011, 10:54 AM
Hell of a bottle opener!!!!