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View Full Version : I HAVE AN EPIC IDEA!!!


Asset
05-23-2011, 4:23 AM
This afternoon, rifle designs were on my mind. I want to create something new and exciting, and I think I've finally got something this time!

I was thinking about the reliability and simplicity of the revolver design. Its effective uses for firearms is unquestionably limited, but there's room for improvement. I though it would be cool if this technology was implemented into a full-scale rifle; turns out we already tried this in the 19th century and it didn't win over a lot of fans. But I haven't given up!

I looked at what people didn't like about the Colt Model 1855, for example. The major issues are things we don't have to worry about with today's modern ammunition, such as leaked powder leading to a chain fire (did not use cartridges). But even if your revolving rifle did use cartridges (S&W Model 320), effectively eliminating the risk of a chain fire, you still had to deal with fragments from the cylinder spraying into your forearm. Admittedly, revolving rifles had a bad start which led to a short lifespan. But bear with me!

Revolvers in general have ergonomic issues as well. Reloading tends to be slow and cumbersome. Because of problems listed above, including the risk of seriously injuring your forearm from cylinder fragments, the calibers and platforms have been limited to pistols. A lot of these issues can be solved!

I decided that the first thing that needed immediate fixing would be the "cylinder spray", since the risk of a chain fire with modern ammo is obviously nonexistent. Picture this: the revolving rifle's cylinder is enclosed within a housing! Your forearm is no longer in harm's way because the bullets are protected from the outside world. There is a secondary benefit: your gun is going to be more reliable because dirt, dust and grime have less of a chance of working their way into your cylinder. Now you may be wondering: if the cylinder is blocked off, how do I load it?

The bottom of the cylinder will still be exposed, and this is where we solve yet another problem of the revolver: reloading. Think of the cylinder as a type of detachable magazine, one that can actually drop off at your command. This is something that pistol revolvers have never done before; the cylinders have always been attached to the system. All it would take is a mag release button, which would drop your "mag" straight down so you could slap in a new one. The bullets would have to be tightly lodged in the cylinder so they don't just fall out (historically revolver ammunition sits loosely in the cylinder so it can be dumped out quickly). They could be locked in place, for example. Think it's impossible? Popular semiautomatic air rifles such as the FX Monsoon and Evanix AR6 have detachable cylinders. These are in fact a type of modern-day revolving rifle! What I'm trying to do is bump up the caliber a little, as well as refine the mechanical design. A lot.

Upgrading the revolver action to a rifle platform opens up a whole different array of calibers to choose from. In my mind I can see rifles with my design going all the way up to .338 Lapua if need be! Because you're no longer confined to pistol dimensions, you can give the cylinder a much longer length and a much higher capacity. Now you might think that the design might be a little front-heavy, but I'm way ahead of you. That's right, we're going bullpup!

What I see in my head is a rifle resembling the DTA SRS Covert, except that instead of bolt-action it's a double-action and instead of a 5-round magazine it has a protected cylinder. I can't entirely see the engineering behind a drop-free cylinder design, but if they can do it with actual magazines and revolving air rifles then I could certainly replicate a design from somewhere. Now some people would be against a bullpup rifle because of their "lousy" trigger pulls. Well, remember that this design is much, much simpler than a typical self-loading/auto-loading rifle: it's just a double-action revolver! And don't forget that there are many precision bullpup rifles out there, as well as new and ingenious trigger designs for bullpups such as the Kel-Tec RFB. All hope is not lost for the bullpup's trigger.

To review:

1. Fragments from the cylinder injuring your forearm is no longer a concern with the addition of a protective housing surrounding the cylinder (except the bottom). This has never been done before because you've always needed to swing the cylinder out to the side to reload it.

2. Cumbersome reloads have been fixed with the addition of a quick-detachable cylinder with locked-in-place ammunition, similar to any modern-day magazine. Empty cylinders can be dropped with a push of a button and a fresh "mag" can be shoved up inside the rifle, where they will be locked in place (just like with normal revolvers, the cylinder would automatically be positioned so that a round would be in sync with the barrel, ready to fire. That's the engineering that's not exactly finished yet, but is totally possible).

3. Caliber and capacity limitations have been fixed with the addition of, well, a rifle platform. I have no idea how many .223 rounds you would be able to hold, for example, but it'd be a heck of a lot more than 6!

4. Potential front-heaviness and stability issues have been fixed with the addition of a bullpup rifle design. Additionally, trigger problems are lessened because the action involved is so much simpler than a traditional gun. Besides, the trigger pull is not what I'm trying to reinvent; that will have to improve on its own.

Yes, I know this is radical and unconventional. Probably a little stupid and far-fetched too, and I accept that. But does it have even the slightest potential? I would love your feedback on this, guys. I've worked really hard planning this out, and I hope at least one person gets what I'm saying.

Many thanks for reading so much!

jshoebot
05-23-2011, 4:31 AM
Pretty cool idea, I like it!

You should call it the PS-74.


:shifty:

Asset
05-23-2011, 5:13 AM
thanks man!

NSR500
05-23-2011, 5:21 AM
Pretty cool idea, I like it!

You should call it the PS-74.


:shifty:

:detective:


:popcorn:


:shifty:

Asset
05-23-2011, 5:29 AM
i dont follow....? :(

Asset
05-23-2011, 5:52 AM
haha just googled it and found the "PS-74 Multical" thread. very funny! let it be clarified that I'm definitely not trying to sell something here, it's just an idea I had.

tgriffin
05-23-2011, 6:44 AM
I think the question that most people will have is "why".

Next, it will be cost prohibitive to have multiple cylinders.

Read up on revolver "timing". It's an almost delicate process to get a revolver to move the cylinder precisely and incrementally. I don't know how you could engineer the process so as for the cylinder to be detachable.

Last but not least... All that cylinder spray is going to sit right inside the mechanism and gum things up worse than a democrat in the white house.

NorCalAthlete
05-23-2011, 11:43 AM
Seems to me a cylinder = lots of wasted space as far as holding ammo. Magazine is more efficient and weighs a lot less.

762.DEFENSE
05-23-2011, 11:55 AM
:inquis:

762.DEFENSE
05-23-2011, 11:56 AM
But after the long read on my mobile, I like the idea.

thewarden2000
05-23-2011, 11:57 AM
Because of problems listed above, including the risk of seriously injuring your forearm from cylinder fragments, the calibers and platforms have been limited to pistols.

Another solution to this problem: 1895 Nagant Revolver! Cylinder moved forward creating a seal with the barrel. :D

dieselpower
05-23-2011, 11:57 AM
its been done...no I dont know the manufacture...but I know I have seen it.

CHS
05-23-2011, 12:01 PM
Congratulations, you just designed the Taurus Circuit judge.

Flintlock Tom
05-23-2011, 12:12 PM
Kudos for thinking outside the box. It's innovation like this that keeps the firearms industry interesting.
None of the issues mentioned by others are insurmountable.

elSquid
05-23-2011, 12:22 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pancor_Jackhammer

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Jackhammer_draw.jpg/300px-Jackhammer_draw.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/46/Jackhammer_blow.jpg/300px-Jackhammer_blow.jpg

Now that was a shotgun. Rifle pressures are much higher, and the cylinder would have to be pretty darn strong...and probably heavy as heck. Take 6 rifle barrels, chop them off ahead of the chamber, then weld the six chambers together. That's the ball park.

Flame cutting would probably be a big issue as well. :shrug:

-- Michael

Dreaded Claymore
05-23-2011, 2:06 PM
Cylinders consist of a number of firing chambers, and so they need to be able to contain the pressure of firing. This means they have to be made of relatively thick steel, and are heavy. On the other hand, an AR-15/STANAG magazine only has to hold the cartridges and help feed them into the chamber. It can be made of thin, stamped aluminum, and is light.

You'd be able to carry a lot less ammunition if it was loaded into heavy steel cylinders, each one of which weighing at least as much as the ammo it holds.

apbrian112
05-23-2011, 3:07 PM
i see where you're going... i just don't see the +'s of doing it. i applaud you for taking the time to think it out but imho i don't see the benefit over existing platforms.

killshot44
05-23-2011, 5:09 PM
Congratulations, you just designed the Taurus Circuit judge.

Yep. Never shot one but hope to. Extremely versatile camp gun.
http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd344/patriot2980/CircuitJudge.jpg

Asset
05-23-2011, 5:42 PM
sorry you guys don't like it. i guess it was pretty dumb.

apbrian112
05-23-2011, 5:47 PM
sorry you guys don't like it. i guess it was pretty dumb.

i wouldn't say dumb... hell, the rifle above has a lot of the things you were brainstorming about. Keep on thinking up new things, not all of them will be hits. :cool:

evidens83
05-23-2011, 5:49 PM
Pretty cool idea, I like it!

You should call it the PS-74.


:shifty:

ZIIIIIiiinnnnGGGG :D

RugerNo1
05-23-2011, 5:51 PM
Just keep thinking about your ideas. Remember, Thomas Edison did not get his lightbulb right on the first try...

CHS
05-23-2011, 6:18 PM
sorry you guys don't like it. i guess it was pretty dumb.

What's dumb about it?

I was only saying that someone already did it.

sandnessj
05-23-2011, 6:20 PM
I am pretty sure that is allready in production

elSquid
05-23-2011, 7:21 PM
sorry you guys don't like it. i guess it was pretty dumb.

It wasn't dumb...it just has a few engineering challenges to overcome!

:)

-- Michael

seronian
05-23-2011, 7:27 PM
Like it but law law law and more law then come regulation.

peterabbits
05-23-2011, 8:36 PM
my first thought on reading your description was the ruger 10-22. the mags are very similar to an encased cylinder..... scale up that model - maybe we'd have something?

emptybottle151
05-23-2011, 8:37 PM
Helghast rifle from killzone?

Mr.Shivers
05-23-2011, 8:49 PM
Basically you described the helghast rifle from killzone. Bullpup rifle with a detachable cylinder holding the rounds

pointedstick
05-23-2011, 9:01 PM
Hmm, not a bad idea, but I don' see what it gets you above and beyond a semi-auto rifle. Removable cylinders are a cool idea, but they're not going to be as cheap, capacious, or space-efficient as a box magazine.

Then again, in CA it technically wouldn't be semi-auto so you could have your detachable cylinders and a pistol grip, flash hider, folding stock… :p

tommyid1
05-23-2011, 9:27 PM
I think weight and bulk of rifle/ cylinder will be extreemely prohibitive to contain the pressures especially with larger caliber full size rifle rounds. Think about case setback as well. Remember the 22 rem jet. Bottleneck cartridges may not fare well in anything other that an autoloader or something with a locked breech.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

wizdumb
05-24-2011, 12:24 AM
I'm all for innovation, but I think you're forgetting a crucial element about the design of the ammunition itself. Revolver ammunition uses a rimmed case, and most modern rifle ammunition is rimless. The rim of the case is what keeps the ammo from falling out of the cylinder.

In order to make a revolver-like magazine for rimless rifle cartridges, each chamber would need to be fitted like a rifle chamber (since they are not straight, like revolver cartridges) and then you'd need some way to extract them after they've been fired. Remember that the brass expands when the round is fired, so having an extractor is crucial to getting the empty case out of the chamber.

Rukus
05-24-2011, 9:14 AM
Can you imagine how massive a cylinder would need to be to hold .338 Lapua rounds? Not to mention that in a bullpup all the weight of that cylinder would be on the back of the rifle, and probably wouldn't balance well.

Lead Waster
05-24-2011, 11:34 AM
You sound like a budding mechanical engineer!

Good ideas though. Regardless of practicality or whatever, I liked how you identified issues with the original revolver-rifle and tackled them.

Asset
05-24-2011, 11:35 PM
thanks!

Excelsior
05-24-2011, 11:58 PM
Where does your forehand go on a rifle? In this case if would be just ahead of the cylinder. A bad, bad place for a super-duper high pressure revolver.

Watch these two videos from the NRA on this exact subject:

http://www.youtube.com/user/NFMCurator#p/search/8/j-VfNhpcb4k

http://www.youtube.com/user/NFMCurator#p/search/1/66CS7ffaeuM

Excelsior
05-25-2011, 12:03 AM
I'm all for innovation, but I think you're forgetting a crucial element about the design of the ammunition itself. Revolver ammunition uses a rimmed case, and most modern rifle ammunition is rimless. The rim of the case is what keeps the ammo from falling out of the cylinder.

In order to make a revolver-like magazine for rimless rifle cartridges, each chamber would need to be fitted like a rifle chamber (since they are not straight, like revolver cartridges) and then you'd need some way to extract them after they've been fired. Remember that the brass expands when the round is fired, so having an extractor is crucial to getting the empty case out of the chamber.
Naw. A simple moon clip and you're good to go. It would facilitate reloading as well.

Lurch762
05-25-2011, 12:31 AM
You have some great ideas, many of which have made it into production already. Unfortunately, not for us stuck in Kalifornia as long as it can take a .410. Check out Gunblast's review of the Taurus Circuit Judge. They have a shield idea to counter "cylinder spray" already. http://www.gunblast.com/Taurus-CircuitJudge.htm

SixPointEight
05-25-2011, 12:42 AM
First I thought why, and that it would be excessively heavy and complex. Then I thought, this would be a great way for a caliber swap rifle, provided you keep the same bore. 22hornet, .223/5.56 22.250 all in one gun? .30-30, .308, .30-06, 300 win mag.

Really that's the only advantage I see here.