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Hammertime
05-21-2011, 11:17 PM
I've been looking at AR's and AK's for some time now, weighing the pro's and con's and can't say I'd be happy with either....before you jump on me for that comment, I'm talking about how AR's will jam like a beast, AK's won't, AR's are accurate at 1000 yards, AK's aren't.

Is there a weapon platform out there that is the following:

1) Semi auto
2) AK reliable
3) AR accurate
4) not $402039423094

Thank you for any input.

brushfire21
05-21-2011, 11:27 PM
Good Food, Good Service, Good Price....

Pick any 2 lol, sorry I couldn't resist!

Some of the piston rifles might be up your alley but most are going to be in the heavier side. What about a SOCOM ? oh yea weight.

I picked up a couple of Robinson XCR's and I really like them, literally it's an AR and AK crossbred together with good ergonomics. A few of my AR's will outshoot them and are lighter but I do enjoy shooting the XCR along with the easy cleanup. Just a thought is all...

PS: you can get quick change barrels in 5.56, 7.62x39 & 6.8 if you want flexibility.

kozumasbullitt
05-21-2011, 11:29 PM
Scar platform.

kozumasbullitt
05-21-2011, 11:31 PM
Also ARs do not jam like "a beast" and if you have one that does then you have a problem. A properly lubed AR will perform flawlessly.

bubbapug1
05-21-2011, 11:31 PM
I've only had an ar jam with Tula ammo.....I am not sure you can call them jamomatics.

Hammertime
05-21-2011, 11:34 PM
I've fired some AR's that were pretty crap. I've had some extensive time with m16's and know that DI systems like that WILL fail unless (as previously stated) they are lubed and cleaned to the "T".

M1a's are definitely a possibility, as they are accurate as hell and reliable. Weight is not an issue...

brushfire21
05-21-2011, 11:35 PM
I was thinking SCAR as well but I ruled it out as there a still quite expensive.

Haven't had many jams in my AR's as well, maybe bad luck on the OP's part? I have one that I really haven't cleaned other than lubed and it still functions but isn't as accurate as the others. I think it a cheapy Rock River that is my loaner gun. Lube is my friend!!!

pyro3k2
05-21-2011, 11:39 PM
Robinson arms XCR
Golani
H&K series of rifles
FN FAL
M1a

Lone_Gunman
05-21-2011, 11:39 PM
M1A/M14 or a CMP Garand.

kozumasbullitt
05-21-2011, 11:45 PM
I've fired some AR's that were pretty crap. I've had some extensive time with m16's and know that DI systems like that WILL fail unless (as previously stated) they are lubed and cleaned to the "T".

M1a's are definitely a possibility, as they are accurate as hell and reliable. Weight is not an issue...

It is all about using quality ARs, you can't categorize an entire line because of a few bad models. The equivalent would be me saying corvettes suck because all the cobalts and aveos I rent have problems. I have had extensive experience with the M16, M4 and AR platform and the problems are usually user, magazine or ammo related.

NorCalAthlete
05-21-2011, 11:46 PM
I'm about to shell out for a .308 piston AR. Seems to fit what you're describing, and they're not as much as a SCAR 17 depending on what you go with.

Hammertime
05-21-2011, 11:47 PM
You are absolutely right, and I was only speaking from my own personal experience with them. I don't like generalizing, but the AR platform is definitely more high maintenance than ANY AK I've shot or owned.

kozumasbullitt
05-21-2011, 11:49 PM
You are absolutely right, and I was only speaking from my own personal experience with them. I don't like generalizing, but the AR platform is definitely more high maintenance than ANY AK I've shot or owned.

Very true.

kozumasbullitt
05-21-2011, 11:49 PM
I'm about to shell out for a .308 piston AR. Seems to fit what you're describing, and they're not as much as a SCAR 17 depending on what you go with.

What .308 piston AR is less money then a scar 17?

whatpain
05-21-2011, 11:51 PM
i just sat and watched this review on the xcr. seems like an awesome gun.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDT7yAmB6bI

Steve1968LS2
05-21-2011, 11:54 PM
..., I'm talking about how AR's will jam like a beast, AK's won't, ..

You need to buy better ARs then .. :)

Couple thousand through mine and not a single hicup..

jeffrice6
05-21-2011, 11:55 PM
Just took the pic so I couldn't resist! Best I've come up with.....

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m302/jeffrice6/IMG_2409.jpg

whatpain
05-21-2011, 11:56 PM
haha those are pretty awesome!!

C_1
05-21-2011, 11:59 PM
SCAR or ACR. Or perhaps a 223 Saiga?

straykiller
05-21-2011, 11:59 PM
MSAR... havent had any problems yet. plus calibre conversions :drool5:

pyro3k2
05-22-2011, 12:01 AM
It is all about using quality ARs, you can't categorize an entire line because of a few bad models. The equivalent would be me saying corvettes suck because all the cobalts and aveos I rent have problems. I have had extensive experience with the M16, M4 and AR platform and the problems are usually user, magazine or ammo related.

The Colt I was issued kinda sucked, my stag out preformed my real deal colt m16a3 in terms of going bang every time I pulled the trigger. My crappy POS WASR has yet to fail me, and there is nothing my high end Saiga can do that my WASR can't. If my cavalier was a POS why would I buy a more expensive car from the same company if they can't even get the simple one right.

NorCalAthlete
05-22-2011, 12:06 AM
What .308 piston AR is less money then a scar 17?

Thought SCAR 17s were around $2500+? Maybe I'm way off on my figures, haven't really looked at pricing on them.

CSI304
05-22-2011, 12:14 AM
www.primaryweapons.com

AR with AK's piston design
1. check
2. check
3. check
4. check

however.. the wait time is like 2-3 monthes

MrPlink
05-22-2011, 12:15 AM
Thought SCAR 17s were around $2500+? Maybe I'm way off on my figures, haven't really looked at pricing on them.

in a free state, maybe.

well worth it though, I love mine like no other

OP, you gotta pay to play :43:

plus IMO the ruggedness of the AK does not just come from the piston.
Consider the caveman simplicity (crude) of the rest of it. Very simple bolt with two massive lugs that are very unlikely to break is a great example.

If there is one critique I have of the SCAR, its that it features a very similar bolt to the AR platform, and while Im honestly not too worried about breaking it, I kind of hoped it would be a new design from the ground up (not that the rifle as a whole is anyways... )

Hammertime
05-22-2011, 12:17 AM
i just sat and watched this review on the xcr. seems like an awesome gun.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDT7yAmB6bI

Nutnfancy is a legend man... looks like a good system!

You need to buy better ARs then .. :)

Couple thousand through mine and not a single hicup..

Couple thousand, but how many times did you clean it ;)?

Also, lets keep it under $1000...

MrPlink
05-22-2011, 12:23 AM
Nutnfancy is a legend man... looks like a good system!



Couple thousand, but how many times did you clean it ;)?

Also, lets keep it under $1000...

ugggg... nutnfancy...

but its not a question of cleaning, but LUBE!

kozumasbullitt
05-22-2011, 12:28 AM
The Colt I was issued kinda sucked, my stag out preformed my real deal colt m16a3 in terms of going bang every time I pulled the trigger. My crappy POS WASR has yet to fail me, and there is nothing my high end Saiga can do that my WASR can't. If my cavalier was a POS why would I buy a more expensive car from the same company if they can't even get the simple one right.

I think you missed the point I was trying to make. The op had some bad experiences with a couple ARs he handled, they could of been $500 ARs or $3000 ARs. I would assume if he had issues that the AR was either of cheaper quality or was faulty. I hate that calguns always gets in these stupid AR vs AK discussions when really everyone only has opinions on what the like. I own ARs and AKs but I prefer the AR platform because that it what I have shot the longest (if I was born in Russia it would probably be the opposite).

NorCalAthlete
05-22-2011, 12:28 AM
Nutnfancy is a legend man... looks like a good system!



Couple thousand, but how many times did you clean it ;)?

Also, lets keep it under $1000...

Nevermind. You're not gonna find a $1,000 1,000 yard shooting piston rifle of any brand. Good luck finding a reliable or decent enough DI rifle at that price to shoot 1,000.

kozumasbullitt
05-22-2011, 12:30 AM
Thought SCAR 17s were around $2500+? Maybe I'm way off on my figures, haven't really looked at pricing on them.

The scar 17 is closer to the $3k range but I didn't know there were any .308 piston AR type rifles under $2.5k, can you fill me in?

Hammertime
05-22-2011, 12:30 AM
I've seen m1a's at 1000, give or take 200 bucks...it isn't out of the questions, especially on these boards in the used market. Just something to consider when someone says "it can't be done"....

capntroy
05-22-2011, 12:32 AM
A few comments;

1) AR's are not high maintenance, both of my BCM middy's have over 3,000 rounds through them and they've never been cleaned, only lubed with EWL. I've never had a stoppage with them that wasn't mag related. Pat Rogers got over 40,000 rounds through one of his and it was cleaned maybe twice.

2) I'm thinking that the XCR in 6.8 will fit your needs, very accurate, very reliable, but you're not going to find one for $1,000.

kozumasbullitt
05-22-2011, 12:32 AM
Nutnfancy is a legend man... looks like a good system!



Couple thousand, but how many times did you clean it ;)?

Also, lets keep it under $1000...

Probably best to stick with an AK if your budget is $1k, a quality AR will be about twice the price of a nice AK.

tacticalcity
05-22-2011, 12:34 AM
What you read online and what you will experience in real life are not going to be the same.

jeffrice6
05-22-2011, 12:37 AM
What you read online and what you will experience in real life are not going to be the same.

Hahaha.... +1000

Hammertime
05-22-2011, 12:39 AM
What you read online and what you will experience in real life are not going to be the same.

Which is why I specifically pointed out that I was going by personal experience....

I suggest reading the entire thread before responding. Thank you.

whatpain
05-22-2011, 12:40 AM
http://xcrforum.com/index.php/topic,10809.0.html

there you go bro. the only thing is its a 5.56 but im sure there will be someone else selling something bigger soon

PEBKAC
05-22-2011, 12:43 AM
The XCR is the closest thing to what you describe, being as it is basically an AR lower (USGI mags, has quasi AR style trigger, AR-style safety but with 45 degree throw, takes AR grips) with an AK upper (bolt, longstroke gas system, AK style ejection, side charging)...minus all the things wrong with the top half of an AK (terrible sighting radius, no optic rail, tolerances THIS BIG, reciprocating charging handle). Also has the simplest and best bolt catch/bolt drop mechanism of any platform. The drawback to all of that deliciousness is weight.

Scar is more AR than it is AK...so it retains the issues with the AR-15 bolt, but it too will come very close and I am pretty sure it will be more accurate than the XCR as FN is known for making godly accurate chrome lined barrels, while pretty much everyone not FN isn't.

Neither of these fabulous weapons systems can be had for less than $1000.

If you are lucky you can find XCRs floating around for the $1200 on occasion though.

bubbapug1
05-22-2011, 12:46 AM
How about a M2HB or a 1919A4...they don't jam too often but they are kind of heavy.

PEBKAC
05-22-2011, 12:49 AM
http://xcrforum.com/index.php/topic,10809.0.html

there you go bro. the only thing is its a 5.56 but im sure there will be someone else selling something bigger soon
Careful...that's the old version. The old trigger was awful and the old gas system was cumbersome....that's at least $250 in upgrades that are less of a "want" and more of a "need" unless you hate your trigger finger with a passion. ;)

whatpain
05-22-2011, 12:53 AM
Careful...that's the old version. The old trigger was awful and the old gas system was cumbersome....that's at least $250 in upgrades that are less of a "want" and more of a "need" unless you hate your trigger finger with a passion. ;)

wow you know a lot about xcr's. they seem to me to be the real deal. why arent they more widespread or well known??

acaligunner
05-22-2011, 1:00 AM
I've been looking at AR's and AK's for some time now, weighing the pro's and con's and can't say I'd be happy with either....before you jump on me for that comment, I'm talking about how AR's will jam like a beast, AK's won't, AR's are accurate at 1000 yards, AK's aren't.

Is there a weapon platform out there that is the following:

1) Semi auto
2) AK reliable
3) AR accurate
4) not $402039423094

Thank you for any input.

IMI Galil, FN Scar, HK 416.

Also, my brother is alive because a Russian AK-47 jammed, and he dispensed of him with a M16.

You could have the best weapon in the world, but if you have a dirty weapon, poor ammo, or just some bad luck your best may stop working properly.

Even the latest high tech helicopter went down, when they where out in the field.

acaligunner

Tank 57
05-22-2011, 1:01 AM
Sig 556 is closer to an AK in design than it is to an AR.

straykiller
05-22-2011, 1:11 AM
FAL!! nuff said

MrPlink
05-22-2011, 1:45 AM
What you read online and what you will experience in real life are not going to be the same.

my real life experience tells me this statement isnt exactly true :p

jcaoloveshine
05-22-2011, 1:54 AM
now you said you want a semiauto gun that is accurate out to 1000 yards. that automatically rules out any caliber less than 308.

even with a 308 semiauto, your practical accuracy with the cartridge is probably around 850 yards. you can reach 1000 with the right loads (175 grain match HPBT), but judging by the questions you're asking i'm assuming you don't have much long-range shooting experience so make sure your skills match the equipment.

surp 308 will run you about 42 cents a round if you buy in lots of 1000, so its not much worse than owning an AR15. its 147 grain and good for about 2MOA accuracy, which is fine on man-sized targets out to 700-800 yards.

in terms of 308 semiauto rifle accuracy, it usually goes like this:

AR10 is sub-MOA, sometimes even half MOA. most versatile, but can't drop mags. does best scoped. the most accurate 308 semiauto platform by far.

M1A is sub- 1.5 MOA. best iron sights of any 308 no doubt, click-adjustable irons are good to 600+ yards provided you can see that well. extremely rugged. it's basically a drop-mag, modernized garand with a shorter gas system.

PTR91 is a heavy barreled HK91. you're looking at about 1.5-2MOA. its around 1000 dollars, but sights are not the best. probably does best scoped. can be picky with ammo, flings and warps brass like a mother.

FAL is probably more like 2+ MOA. sights are not the best, better to scope it out for long range shooting. very rugged though.

you can venture into the bullpup area with the Keltec RFB, but that's probably best as a scoped weapon although i have heard it can achieve 1 MOA groups and has a decent trigger for a bullpup. you'd probably spend around 1500-1700 for one, and it's not a very common rifle so you'd have to shop around for sure.

now, are you going to shoot matches? steel? using this to hunt? if you're going for match accuracy, then buy an AR10 semiauto. better yet, get a bolt gun.

if you want practical accuracy on steel/human targets, any of the above will do for out to 800 yards.

in my opinion, the best blend of functionality + accuracy + reliability of the above options for either match/hunting/steel shooting rests with an m1a loaded or match variant (national match, supermatch, m25 whitefeather/ m21 crazyhorse) model. its a great all around rifle because you can also detach mags quickly as well. after you add on scope and mount, however, you are looking at about 2.5K + scope money (assuming you build upon a $1500 loaded model, a good mount is about $150 and then if you swap the stock for a precision stock thats another $800).

having shot garands and with an m1a on the range (as well as a lot of trigger time behind an AR15) i HIGHLY suggest you buy a used m1a loaded for around 1500, buy a lot of surp 308, and learn to shoot with irons out to 600 yards.

Hammertime
05-22-2011, 2:31 AM
Thank you...that has been the single most helpful post so far.

I don't have experience out past 600. At all. .308 seems to be the master of the dominion if you want some accuracy past 500.

Cool. Thanks for the input, everyone.

jcaoloveshine
05-22-2011, 2:38 AM
there are cartridges you can consider other than 308 (eg 6.5 grendel, 243 winchester is another good laser round out to 1000 yards) but in terms of cost and availabilty 308 is king.

are you located in socal? angeles range goes out to 600 yards and is great to learn practical shooting since they have steel from 2-600 yards that are about 3-4MOA in size.

if you are in the area i will let you know when i am going to angeles and you're free to try out my m1a loaded/ .30-06 garand to see if you like the platform.

i'm curious though why do you want a weapon that reaches beyond 600 yards? in case you wanna shoot that far, or do you have access to a place that will allow you to practice at those ranges? i don't have experience shooting beyond 500 yards (500 with irons on my A2 AR15 is about as far as i've scored hits on steel) but it does feel nice knowing that i have rifles that can reach out to 800.

motorwerks
05-22-2011, 10:45 AM
You need to buy better ARs then .. :)

Couple thousand through mine and not a single hicup..

Exactly what I was going to say!

blazeaglory
05-22-2011, 11:20 AM
I think you missed the point I was trying to make. The op had some bad experiences with a couple ARs he handled, they could of been $500 ARs or $3000 ARs. I would assume if he had issues that the AR was either of cheaper quality or was faulty. I hate that calguns always gets in these stupid AR vs AK discussions when really everyone only has opinions on what the like. I own ARs and AKs but I prefer the AR platform because that it what I have shot the longest (if I was born in Russia it would probably be the opposite).


i dont like the fact that an AR15 fouls the chamber with gas either, but cleaning and lube will stop any problems (most problems any ways). CMMG has a piston type upgrade you can buy for your gas driven AR and people have said that stops the chamber from fouling, you still have to clean it but now most of the grime is out by the end of the gas tube by the fore guard i think. i would buy a piston driven AR 7.62 if i could afford it from the link above. but for the time being, ill be happy with an AR15 AND an AK47.

Hammertime
05-22-2011, 12:22 PM
there are cartridges you can consider other than 308 (eg 6.5 grendel, 243 winchester is another good laser round out to 1000 yards) but in terms of cost and availabilty 308 is king.

are you located in socal? angeles range goes out to 600 yards and is great to learn practical shooting since they have steel from 2-600 yards that are about 3-4MOA in size.

if you are in the area i will let you know when i am going to angeles and you're free to try out my m1a loaded/ .30-06 garand to see if you like the platform.

i'm curious though why do you want a weapon that reaches beyond 600 yards? in case you wanna shoot that far, or do you have access to a place that will allow you to practice at those ranges? i don't have experience shooting beyond 500 yards (500 with irons on my A2 AR15 is about as far as i've scored hits on steel) but it does feel nice knowing that i have rifles that can reach out to 800.

Exactly. I just want something that is capable of 1000. No real NEED, just something cool to have. We all spend money towards stuff that makes us happy, and for me happiness is a reliable semi auto that is good at any range.

I'll let you know when I head out. Taking the Swedish Mauser on her maiden voyage (with me anyways) soon...maybe tuesday? I'll let you know, and yes I was planning on going on Angeles.

Steve1968LS2
05-22-2011, 1:00 PM
Thought SCAR 17s were around $2500+? Maybe I'm way off on my figures, haven't really looked at pricing on them.

Where?

And in CA they will be more than out of state since they need to messed up to conform to our laws.. so ones bought in state are more expensive and ones out of state need to be shipped in (more fees) and converted.

They typically go around here for closer to $3k.

Stone
05-22-2011, 4:22 PM
I've been looking at AR's and AK's for some time now, weighing the pro's and con's and can't say I'd be happy with either....before you jump on me for that comment, I'm talking about how AR's will jam like a beast, AK's won't, AR's are accurate at 1000 yards, AK's aren't.

Is there a weapon platform out there that is the following:

1) Semi auto
2) AK reliable
3) AR accurate
4) not $402039423094

Thank you for any input.

HK G3A3 comes to mind, of course that particular model is banned in CA but I'm sure you can beat around the bush so to speak

cmace22
05-22-2011, 4:38 PM
PS-74 Multical FTW!

mlevans66
05-22-2011, 4:42 PM
You are absolutely right, and I was only speaking from my own personal experience with them. I don't like generalizing, but the AR platform is definitely more high maintenance than ANY AK I've shot or owned.

Not really just lube it! Even AKs need some luuuube, duuude. Same thing with the barrel. Keep it un-obstructed and you're golden. Both rifles are EPIC and the newer versions are getting better. I say choose both! Seeing as how they are really becoming more affordable.

Dhena81
05-22-2011, 5:34 PM
Sorry boys but who here was deployed with a new AR or one that the PM's don't involve a break first fix later mentality.

CqRwx4wtmms

b0uEtonFVGU

U9y8lX1fmes&feature

comblock
05-22-2011, 5:51 PM
Read my signature line below.

pyro3k2
05-22-2011, 6:24 PM
I think you missed the point I was trying to make. The op had some bad experiences with a couple ARs he handled, they could of been $500 ARs or $3000 ARs. I would assume if he had issues that the AR was either of cheaper quality or was faulty. I hate that calguns always gets in these stupid AR vs AK discussions when really everyone only has opinions on what the like. I own ARs and AKs but I prefer the AR platform because that it what I have shot the longest (if I was born in Russia it would probably be the opposite).

Perhaps there is mutual misunderstanding of each others posts. I was not trying bring up the old AR vs AK debate. World peace will happen way before that topic has a clear winner. So i'll just leave it at that :D

PS-74 Multical FTW!

Cal-guns Forum jokes FTWS!!!!

Sorry boys but who here was deployed with a new AR or one that the PM's don't involve a break first fix later mentality.

CqRwx4wtmms

b0uEtonFVGU

U9y8lX1fmes&feature

Thank god for Youtube and it's data base maybe I should link a vid of a 1911 jamming and say they are pieces of **** (BTW I own several 1911's and love them!)

cmace22
05-22-2011, 6:42 PM
Perhaps there is mutual misunderstanding of each others posts. I was not trying bring up the old AR vs AK debate. World peace will happen way before that topic has a clear winner. So leave it at that :D



Cal-guns Forum jokes FTWS!!!!



Thank god for Youtube and it's data base maybe I should link a vid of a 1911 jamming and say they are pieces of **** (BTW I own several 1911's and love them!)

I like how in the first video they left the safety on fire and poured dirt into the dust cover then had the gonads to act as if it was a fair test. If they would have cracked an AR open and done the same they would have had much the same results.

jcaoloveshine
05-22-2011, 7:03 PM
Exactly. I just want something that is capable of 1000. No real NEED, just something cool to have. We all spend money towards stuff that makes us happy, and for me happiness is a reliable semi auto that is good at any range.

I'll let you know when I head out. Taking the Swedish Mauser on her maiden voyage (with me anyways) soon...maybe tuesday? I'll let you know, and yes I was planning on going on Angeles.

Ah, I'm going in around 2-3 weeks with some buddies of mine. I'll let you know when.

Dark Mod
05-22-2011, 8:12 PM
just get an m1a

Dhena81
05-22-2011, 9:16 PM
Thank god for Youtube and it's data base maybe I should link a vid of a 1911 jamming and say they are pieces of **** (BTW I own several 1911's and love them!)

If you do I'll buy a couple of them :D my intentions weren't to say AK's suck rather that reliability of an AR isn't as bad as people make it out to be. Also that everything has a failing point nothing will run no matter what is thrown at it.