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Tacit Blue
05-19-2011, 9:39 PM
Do to copyright issues, please post only a few lines from the article, your comment and then the link to the full story.



Riverside County Sheriff Stan Sniff’s plan to eliminate up to 800 positions to meet the Board of Supervisors’ budget target for the next fiscal year would be “devastating” to sheriff’s operations and seriously undermine public safety in the county, the president of the deputies’ union said Friday.


Riverside County Sheriff Stan Sniff's plan to slash up to 800 positions to meet the Board of Supervisors' budget target for the next fiscal year. (photo courtesy of City of Perris)
Pat McNamara, head of the 3,500-member Riverside Sheriffs’ Association, told City News Service that the personnel cuts on the table would be unprecedented.


http://www.swrnn.com/2011/05/14/riverside-county-sheriff-plans-to-layoff-up-to-800-deputies/

800 Deputies!!!:eek: I hope this is some sort of political infighting, and a bad stunt gone wrong. Otherwise if this is the real deal, then its a very sad day for RSO...

if interested in more reading go here :http://forums.officer.com/forums/showthread.php?165354-All-those-Deps-that-are-out-their-with-RSO-should-share-your-feelings-with-our-supers

fullrearview
05-19-2011, 10:19 PM
Damn...

TurboChrisB
05-19-2011, 10:30 PM
Sounds like political BS to me....usually grossly exaggerated.

Tacit Blue
05-19-2011, 10:42 PM
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"Ok so here's a little rundown of the latest. July 13 is the effective date that 50 sworn and 50 correctional
Deputies are gone. That's contingent on the actual budget the BOS approves. If we get the money we need, they won't be laid off. If any more lay offs are needed the sheriff will do it in phases. Each phase takes 45 days and will include 100 bodies. Phase 3 includes closing and consolidating stations and jails. Guys in some non patrol positions will either go back to patrol, jails or courts. There may also be demotions. Contact cities will keep their staffing. Guys with less dept seniority may be able to bump others based on training and experience with other agencies. Take me for example, I have more training and experience than about 80% of my station. I also have a special assignment that requires special training. My position is funded by a city. I'm supposed to be safe.

Again, this all depends on the budget that's supposed to be approved next month. I actually have faith in our sheriff. He will do the right thing. On a side note, an academy class graduates tonight. They will be able to graduate and will be laid off as deputies, not recruits. We got a call today that one of them was threatening to eat his barrel. Guess he won't be graduating."

Looks like some recruit threatened to kill himself over the thought of graduating and being laid off...?? Wow, thats sad.. Pushed him into a deep end of hopelessness.

Bargearse
05-19-2011, 10:55 PM
If they really did. I will use the word "layoffs" as one of good cause statement in CCW application in Riverside County

Watchur6
05-19-2011, 11:28 PM
Wow that is sad. I have an old co-worker that was laid off from my department and just got hired as a Deputy sheriff trainee, he was suppose to graduate in this upcoming graduation from Riverside sheriff academy. I think I shall give him a call. Being laid off twice can be really hard to deal with. Hope it wasn't him, he's pretty strong minded but you never know. I feel for you all lingering in limbo not knowing if you will still be employed. My dept. Is close to 200 sworn laid off. We will see how it goes. Good luck all and be safe.

RollingCode3
05-19-2011, 11:29 PM
This is bad.... Very bad

yzernie
05-19-2011, 11:32 PM
Sounds like political BS to me....usually grossly exaggerated.
Believe what you wish. The budgets for many local municipalities and departments is bordering on critical. My department is holding hundreds of positions vacant in an effort to meet budgetary requirements. The members of the department are currently going through a contract renegotiation in an effort to further help withj the budget. So, even if his numbers are embellished by 100% that still means 400 deputies getting their walking papers....a very real scenario.

I don't work for RSO but I have heard through credible sources they have several positions that are staffed at management levels when they could be staffed at deputy levels. If that is true, then a realignment of staffed positions may be necessary as well.

Cali-Shooter
05-19-2011, 11:33 PM
And they still won't issue CCW's to regular citizens without a 'special cause.' AND they want to take away UOC. Farking Horses**t.

Jonathan Doe
05-19-2011, 11:34 PM
How can you lay off 800 people and still function effectively?

yzernie
05-19-2011, 11:36 PM
And they still won't issue CCW's to regular citizens without a 'special cause.' AND they want to take away UOC. Farking Horses**t.
"They" is pretty broad...who are you talking about?

fullrearview
05-20-2011, 12:25 AM
I don't work for RSO but I have heard through credible sources they have several positions that are staffed at management levels when they could be staffed at deputy levels. If that is true, then a realignment of staffed positions may be necessary as well.

Sounds like my department... 5 supervisors for 8 deputies; and 2 detectives that pretty much supervise themselves... That's Dolly Parton top heavy!

johndoe2150
05-20-2011, 1:24 AM
I heard about this from a friend who is getting laid off there, it seems like it may be a bluff to get the approved budget. I wouldn't be surprised, but I certainly hope they don't do it.

Roddd
05-20-2011, 2:14 AM
It's truly sad to hear this. Best wishes to the deputies and citizens in Riverside.

gschoelles
05-20-2011, 5:39 AM
The Union wants Furlow days instead of pay cuts, and to be honest I think that enough Furlow days to cover budget would equal the same loss of man power on the streets. So unless the cops are willing to work for less, I don't see where the Sheriff has a choice.

Not an endorsement of anything, just say'n

Swatter911
05-20-2011, 5:45 AM
And add to the mess that the governor wants the counties to keep about thirty thousand inmates each year that they would have otherwise sent to state prison. We're gutting jails of personnel and will have no choice but to release inmates.

Jack L
05-20-2011, 5:48 AM
If they really did. I will use the word "layoffs" as one of good cause statement in CCW application in Riverside County

I live in a conservative county where the sheriff's have not issued CCWs to the average citizen using 'self defense' as a GC. But since the budget has caused issues with staffing deputies in the remote areas of the unincorporated parts of our county, the sheriff has been issuing CCWs to some of those that qualify in those areas. So in part the lack of funding has initiated some loosening of a once very conservative mindset regarding CCWs.

I was going to write my sheriff and suggest we have a special assessment for each property in the remote areas to be used for additional funding of deputies, and maybe a few K-9s. They do this for schools, why not LE? I enjoy the fact I have a CCW but would rather also have more LEOs who could keep a lid on safety and crime out here. 30 minutes plus on response time for us.

Jonathan Doe
05-20-2011, 6:34 AM
Back in early 90's, my agency said that they will either lay off deputies or get a pay cut. Somehow, misteriously, they found money later. No pay cut and no lay off.

Cali-Shooter
05-20-2011, 7:07 AM
"They" is pretty broad...who are you talking about?

The state of California of course. The legislation, the judicial branch, senators, assemblymen, police chiefs, sheriffs, etc.

tyrist
05-20-2011, 7:48 AM
How can you lay off 800 people and still function effectively?

I am hoping most of those "layoffs" are just vacant positions. I am worried for the residents of Riverside county though. Without enough Deputies in custody to keep the animals caged they are going to have to let them out. When you add in the lower number of crime suppression units; the Sheriffs department will probably become completely reactionary. It will harm their property values and businesses will leave. Which is likely to cause even further budget cuts.

its mcgavin son
05-20-2011, 7:56 AM
Yeah, Riverside Sheriff's Department is going to lay off 100 deputies/correctional officers in the first wave of layoffs, plus many more (up to 800, right?)...

BUT YET

They're still "hiring" and encouraging die-hard HOPEFUL law enforcement applicants to waste their time and come in for testing.. corrupt scammers.. RSD doesn't even have money to fund their own positions let alone fund individual hiring processes for qualified candidates AND conduct an academy.. what a laughable joke and I hope the lay-offs go swell :)

I've wasted my time with so many agencies that say they're "hiring", but when all stages are completed and an employment invitation is expected, I received a 'sorry we're broke, we can't run an academy'..

I have more respect for the nasty recruits in boot camp than the roaches in these law enforcement agencies that put on charades of potential employment..

Tacit Blue
05-20-2011, 12:24 PM
Yeah, Riverside Sheriff's Department is going to lay off 100 deputies/correctional officers in the first wave of layoffs, plus many more (up to 800, right?)...

BUT YET

They're still "hiring" and encouraging die-hard HOPEFUL law enforcement applicants to waste their time and come in for testing.. corrupt scammers.. RSD doesn't even have money to fund their own positions let alone fund individual hiring processes for qualified candidates AND conduct an academy.. what a laughable joke and I hope the lay-offs go swell :)

I've wasted my time with so many agencies that say they're "hiring", but when all stages are completed and an employment invitation is expected, I received a 'sorry we're broke, we can't run an academy'..

I have more respect for the nasty recruits in boot camp than the roaches in these law enforcement agencies that put on charades of potential employment..

I was one of those Die Hard recruits, I wasted all my time up there. Drove back down to San Diego. At least i got to visit the March AFB museum, that was the most positive thing that came out the whole RSO thing.


http://www.joinrsd.org/ Why are they still hiring?

yzernie
05-20-2011, 5:44 PM
Yeah, Riverside Sheriff's Department is going to lay off 100 deputies/correctional officers in the first wave of layoffs, plus many more (up to 800, right?)...

BUT YET

They're still "hiring" and encouraging die-hard HOPEFUL law enforcement applicants to waste their time and come in for testing.. corrupt scammers.. RSD doesn't even have money to fund their own positions let alone fund individual hiring processes for qualified candidates AND conduct an academy.. what a laughable joke and I hope the lay-offs go swell :)

I've wasted my time with so many agencies that say they're "hiring", but when all stages are completed and an employment invitation is expected, I received a 'sorry we're broke, we can't run an academy'..

I have more respect for the nasty recruits in boot camp than the roaches in these law enforcement agencies that put on charades of potential employment..
I relate to your frustration as my son put himself through the SBSD Basic Academy and even with his Basic Post Academy Certificate can't get hired either. I do however, take exception to your condemning words above of "corrupt scammers". That is painting with a very broad brush and more importantly, IMHO, a very misinformed opinion. If there are no positions and no money available to hire, then what do you propose they do?

Many businesses/departments continue to accept applications for employment and continue with the testing process even though they are not hiring. Most all businesses and/or departments strive to keep the talent pool filled with qualified candidates just in the odd event there are some openings or if money that becomes available.

Roddd
05-20-2011, 6:00 PM
McGavin: if you're still looking to get hired by an agency, my advice is to delete that negative post. You background investigator will find it. Just a thought. I know your frustration though man. It's the nature of the beast.

tyrist
05-20-2011, 7:35 PM
Yeah, Riverside Sheriff's Department is going to lay off 100 deputies/correctional officers in the first wave of layoffs, plus many more (up to 800, right?)...

BUT YET

They're still "hiring" and encouraging die-hard HOPEFUL law enforcement applicants to waste their time and come in for testing.. corrupt scammers.. RSD doesn't even have money to fund their own positions let alone fund individual hiring processes for qualified candidates AND conduct an academy.. what a laughable joke and I hope the lay-offs go swell :)

I've wasted my time with so many agencies that say they're "hiring", but when all stages are completed and an employment invitation is expected, I received a 'sorry we're broke, we can't run an academy'..

I have more respect for the nasty recruits in boot camp than the roaches in these law enforcement agencies that put on charades of potential employment..

They cannot run an academy now but might in the future. The problem is all the departments have to maintain a list of candidates at all times. You can't just shutdown for months or even years and then immediately start back up. Getting people who are actually able to do the job is quite difficult so they need a constant list of qualified applicants even when they are not running an academy. Don't despair and check the bad attitude things will eventually turn around.

Tacit Blue
05-20-2011, 7:40 PM
I think its time to start looking out of State... My friend took the San Diego Police Test today, or at least attempted too. He said there was so many people, they booted him out. 400+ people showed up at 5:30 am to take a test, it was around the corner like the DMV. Sad thing is they're not looking to hire hundreds of Officers, maybe 10-20 for the next academy. Who knows.... People are getting desperate now..

bshnt2015
05-20-2011, 8:01 PM
Wow, if true.

Triad
05-20-2011, 8:47 PM
I am thinking about moving out of state, but I won't do it until law enforcement on the whole picks back up.

Its hard for me to leave a stable job here for the unknown somewhere else.

Beagle
05-20-2011, 8:49 PM
Well I remember reading some where saying that riverside has one of the worst economy in CA. If they lay that many LEO off it might turn into Detroit where 7 out of 10 murder are unsolved.

My agency was suppose to hire earlier this year but they put that on hold.

Norsemen308
05-20-2011, 8:52 PM
So basically I dont need to set a date for my exam is what your saying....

Beagle
05-20-2011, 8:58 PM
What you need to do is apply for any and all LEO position and I would also apply for support staff positions as well since the process can take a while.

Bud11
05-20-2011, 9:08 PM
Big bummer.

rag9393
05-21-2011, 11:32 AM
Yeah, Riverside Sheriff's Department is going to lay off 100 deputies/correctional officers in the first wave of layoffs, plus many more (up to 800, right?)...

BUT YET

They're still "hiring" and encouraging die-hard HOPEFUL law enforcement applicants to waste their time and come in for testing.. corrupt scammers.. RSD doesn't even have money to fund their own positions let alone fund individual hiring processes for qualified candidates AND conduct an academy.. what a laughable joke and I hope the lay-offs go swell :)

I've wasted my time with so many agencies that say they're "hiring", but when all stages are completed and an employment invitation is expected, I received a 'sorry we're broke, we can't run an academy'..

I have more respect for the nasty recruits in boot camp than the roaches in these law enforcement agencies that put on charades of potential employment..
Your post shows your ignorance and belief of entitlement. Maybe this line of work isn't for you.

retired
05-21-2011, 7:21 PM
Per an article in the Press Enterprise today, the County has broken off all negotiations with the union also.

They also mentioned Hemet PD has sent notices to everyone; including the acting chief there will be layoffs. That dept. does permit "bumping" tho, so lts. will become sgts. and sgts. officers again. They already laid off 9 officers last year. They were probably the ones who had lateraled over 3yrs. ago with a bonus.

I live in the unincorporated area of Wincester/French Valley. When I moved in, almost 5yrs. ago, I was told they only have 1 deputy on EMs in my area. I guess if this goes thru, it will be 1 deputy on EMs for my area, Lake Elsinore, Menifee, Wildomar, etc. total.:(

Tacit Blue
05-21-2011, 9:59 PM
Per an article in the Press Enterprise today, the County has broken off all negotiations with the union also.

They also mentioned Hemet PD has sent notices to everyone; including the acting chief there will be layoffs. That dept. does permit "bumping" tho, so lts. will become sgts. and sgts. officers again. They already laid off 9 officers last year. They were probably the ones who had lateraled over 3yrs. ago with a bonus.

I live in the unincorporated area of Wincester/French Valley. When I moved in, almost 5yrs. ago, I was told they only have 1 deputy on EMs in my area. I guess if this goes thru, it will be 1 deputy on EMs for my area, Lake Elsinore, Menifee, Wildomar, etc. total.:(

Incredible..... This is not going good.... These Men/Women have families to feed and communities to protect. I can't believe that! Now their is going to be a flood of RSO laterals flooding around, to make the LEO market even more competitive:eek:

The county needs to get their act together, quit being selfish about salaries and wasting money! These Deputies are front line foot soldiers, that keep criminals from running rampant.

davebsd
05-22-2011, 9:34 AM
I don't see how they are going to pull that off in light of the upcoming state budget re-alignment and subsequent growth of county inmate populations. If anything, they need to be hiring more.

yzernie
05-22-2011, 1:22 PM
I don't see how they are going to pull that off in light of the upcoming state budget re-alignment and subsequent growth of county inmate populations. If anything, they need to be hiring more.
You are correct. Another important and related issue is the state is taking funds from the counties under the authority of the state and using those fund to help supplement the free hand outs going to illegals and people to lazy to work. I never been a 'sky is falling' kind of person but that monetary loss coupled with the soon to be expansion of state inmates in the county jail systems is a certain receipt for disaster. Not just in Riverside but all over the state.

Noah3683
05-22-2011, 4:46 PM
The closing of private owned state prisons, moving/releasing prisoners, and combining it with PD layoffs and hiring freezes is opening Pandora's box! Hate to bring in politics, but I hope the moonbeam supporters are happy as CA goes to hell in a hand basket. Not that Whitman was a great candidate either, but this is a really stupid move. Cut off the immigrants, and implement a drug test system for the others getting a free ride. Also put a system in place that makes them provide some sort of proof they are looking for work. IE: list date and time applied, who they turned app in to. Any management they spoke to etc.... We'll see how quick that budget gets a lot stronger!

cindynles
05-22-2011, 7:36 PM
And they still won't issue CCW's to regular citizens without a 'special cause.' AND they want to take away UOC. Farking Horses**t.

"They" is pretty broad...who are you talking about?

The RSO CCW unit will not issue to "regular" citizens.......

http://i557.photobucket.com/albums/ss20/cindynles/scan0002.jpg

Cheese & Bacon
05-22-2011, 8:16 PM
Riverside only houses felony and violent misdemeanor inmates. They are going to close over 500 beds and put those inmates on the streets again. Call the county board of supervisors and tell them what you think.

gschoelles
05-23-2011, 6:11 AM
The Sheriff could move to shall issue since the Board did state a positive position on this! That would be nice.

yzernie
05-23-2011, 2:03 PM
The RSO CCW unit will not issue to "regular" citizens.......
What did you list as your reason in your paperwork?

Ron-Solo
05-23-2011, 9:26 PM
The recent academy graduates sponsored by RSO were given pink slips at graduation. It is bad

cindynles
05-24-2011, 8:36 AM
What did you list as your reason in your paperwork?

"I wish to carry a handgun for the purpose of self defense, specifically from animal predators such as coyotes and mountain lions"

yzernie
05-24-2011, 9:18 AM
When you submitted that sentence did you articulate a justification?

cindynles
05-24-2011, 11:41 AM
When you submitted that sentence did you articulate a justification?

Yes, and I ran it by some of the "right people" who frequent this site before I submitted it.

Details are in this thread starting a post 30: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=352777

yzernie
05-24-2011, 12:11 PM
Yes, and I ran it by some of the "right people" who frequent this site before I submitted it.
Your quote from 11-04-10
I'm not turning in the "Additional Background Questions" though since it says "I fully understand that this information will be treated as confidential and, though not required, providing accurate information will assist in a timely completion of the CCW application process."

Your quote from 11-28-10
When I submitted my application recently, I was asked if I completed the supplemental questionnaire but I was not required to turn it in.

Your quote from 02-17-11
Good cause was "I wish to carry a handgun for the purpose of self defense, specifically from animal predators such as coyotes and mountain lions"

I knew it was a gamble going into it........
It looks to me you answered your own question in your final sentence of your last quote above. Without seeing your submitted documents it would be hard to make a judgement as to why they did not issue to you. However, it would seem to me the "right people" would have had you further articulate your reasoning in your Good Cause statement to something more than protection from predatory animals.

One of the other posters in your previous thread said he got his Riverside County CCW pretty easily. Without making any judgement, did you contact them and ask specifically why they declined?

cindynles
05-24-2011, 1:25 PM
One of the other posters in your previous thread said he got his Riverside County CCW pretty easily. Without making any judgement, did you contact them and ask specifically why they declined?

They will not put it in writing, but its because I do not meet the good cause of:

VALID DEATH THREATS OR HARRASSMENT ARE THE CRITERIA WHERE
ISSUANCE OF A CCW PERMIT WILL BE CONSIDERED FOR PERSONAL
PROTECTION. THE RIVERSIDE COUNTY SHERIFF DOES NOT ISSUE PERMITS
TO “PROVIDE A FEELING OF SAFETY” OR TO ALLEVIATE A “FEAR OF
VICTIMIZATION”.

As defined here on page 5: http://www.riversidesheriff.org/pdf/ccw-rso.pdf

I completed and passed the LiveScan, meet the moral charcter requirement, qualified with 3 handguns, and completed the required training. But since I don't own a business or have an active stalker, Sheriff Sniff will not "allow" me the "privilege" of a CCW.

I understand that this is the way things are right now, but it is an undisputed fact that the Riverside County Sheriff's CCW unit will not issue to a "regular" citizen like me.

AR15Kimo
05-24-2011, 3:00 PM
One of my buddies just graduated from the RSO academy like 1-2 weeks ago o.O

yzernie
05-24-2011, 6:55 PM
it is an undisputed fact that the Riverside County Sheriff's CCW unit will not issue to a "regular" citizen like me.
The below is a quote from another CGN'er who applied at Riverside county for CCW:

I just made sure that EVERYTHING was done ahead of time. Everything was typed up and legible. My good cause we well written, like you would a college paper. (Thank goodness for spell check.) I dressed nice for the interview and gave them no other cause to turn me down. All the "t's" were crossed and the "i's" dotted. Got my class taken care of in a timely manner. Made followup calls but didn't bug them. All in all it was pretty easy!

Again, without seeing your submitted paperwork or knowing anything about you it would be difficult to make a judgement on why they did not issue. Obviously and for some reason, they declinded to issue to you. I would again encourage you to contact them and see if they will enlighten you as to why they declined to issue.

cindynles
05-24-2011, 10:24 PM
Again, without seeing your submitted paperwork or knowing anything about you it would be difficult to make a judgement on why they did not issue. Obviously and for some reason, they declinded to issue to you. I would again encourage you to contact them and see if they will enlighten you as to why they declined to issue.

I don't want to de-rail this thread anymore than I already have. I attended the training class with that Calguner and his good cause was much more closely aligned with the policy stated by Sheriff Sniff. The point I am trying to make is that Riverside county will NOT issue to a regular citizen unless they have an active threat (with police reports) or a business (lots of cash) related good cause.

I am proof of that. I posted my good cause and the denial letter I received. I am as normal as it gets, but I don't own a business and no one is actively threating me. I can tell you that I was activetly discouraged from applying by the CCW unit at my interview when they read my good cause. I insisted on applying anyway, so now there is documented proof that Sheriff Sniff is not a CCW supporter. I am not trying to discourage anyone from applying, but I am bring facts to the table.

The FACT is that the RSO CCW unit will NOT issue to a regular citizen. I am a regular citizen, honorably discharged veteran, of good moral character, not a prohibited person, who passed the LiveScan process, and Sheriff Sniff will NOT issue a CCW to me.

Noah3683
05-25-2011, 11:24 AM
Not to butt in here, but as I'm in the process now in San Bernardino County.... I will go out of my way to elaborate anything extra in full detail that I believe will help my cause. I understand San Bernardino County is quite a bit more relaxed on the issue, but still. I think answering the additional "optional" questionaire and giving a little more detail on your cause IE: "I'm an avid hiker and have encountered dangerous animals in which I felt fear for my life on previous occasions before" I'm not sure it would've worked, but I bet it would've increased your odds substantially.

yzernie
05-25-2011, 5:55 PM
I don't want to de-rail this thread anymore than I already have. I attended the training class with that Calguner and his good cause was much more closely aligned with the policy stated by Sheriff Sniff. The point I am trying to make is that Riverside county will NOT issue to a regular citizen unless they have an active threat (with police reports) or a business (lots of cash) related good cause.

I am proof of that. I posted my good cause and the denial letter I received. I am as normal as it gets, but I don't own a business and no one is actively threating me. I can tell you that I was activetly discouraged from applying by the CCW unit at my interview when they read my good cause. I insisted on applying anyway, so now there is documented proof that Sheriff Sniff is not a CCW supporter. I am not trying to discourage anyone from applying, but I am bring facts to the table.

The FACT is that the RSO CCW unit will NOT issue to a regular citizen. I am a regular citizen, honorably discharged veteran, of good moral character, not a prohibited person, who passed the LiveScan process, and Sheriff Sniff will NOT issue a CCW to me.
I can tell you from personal experience (my wife used to work in the unit that does this for our dept) if you don't articulate your request well enough or if you don't turn in all of the paperwork given to you the process starts behind the 8-ball. Owning a business, having viable threats, carrying a lot of money or whatever, has no bearing with my department on issuing a CCW.

cindynles
05-25-2011, 6:18 PM
I can tell you from personal experience (my wife used to work in the unit that does this for our dept) if you don't articulate your request well enough or if you don't turn in all of the paperwork given to you the process starts behind the 8-ball. Owning a business, having viable threats, carrying a lot of money or whatever, has no bearing with my department on issuing a CCW.

Let me give you some examples of the "additional questions" and you tell me if you would answer these knowing that it will become a public record:

http://www.riversidesheriff.org/pdf/ccw-rso.pdf starting on page 38.

How many alcoholic beverages do you consume in an average week?

Are there other crimes you have committed, for which you have not been caught?

When was the last time you lost control of your temper?

Have you ever driven a vehicle while under the influence of alcohol or drugs? If so, when
was the last time?

Have you ever been arrested, detained, or questioned by the police as an adult or juvenile?

How many times, if any, have you had to physically defend yourself?

Is there anything in your background that you are trying to conceal?

Kind of like asking someone "So, when did you stop beating your wife?"

yzernie
05-25-2011, 6:47 PM
Let me give you some examples of the "additional questions" and you tell me if you would answer these knowing that it will become a public record:

http://www.riversidesheriff.org/pdf/ccw-rso.pdf starting on page 38.



Kind of like asking someone "So, when did you stop beating your wife?"
It is my personal belief those questions are reasonable when submitting for a CCW. What folks need to understand is, for Sheriff's to issue to someone they have to be certain there are no prohibited behaviors in their past or present. If you were the Sheriff wouldn't you want to ensure the same things before you issued?

cindynles
05-25-2011, 7:33 PM
No, if I were the Sheriff I would follow the law, just like the Sacramento Sheriff. Isn't it pretty obvious that I am a law abiding citizen after all the background checks? The questions are illegal.

It's pretty easy for someone involved in law enforcement to throw rocks.

So when was the last time you lost your temper? Ever yell at someone? Maybe you shouldn't be involved in law enforcement and be allowed to carry a gun if can't control your temper 100% of the time.

Do you really think your Union would be OK with you having to answer questions like that? Probably not, but you're OK with a regular citizen have to give up their 5th Amendent rights in order to exercise their 2nd.

Do as I say, not as I do......

yzernie
05-25-2011, 7:59 PM
No, if I were the Sheriff I would follow the law, just like the Sacramento Sheriff. Isn't it pretty obvious that I am a law abiding citizen after all the background checks? The questions are illegal.

It's pretty easy for someone involved in law enforcement to throw rocks.

So when was the last time you lost your temper? Ever yell at someone? Maybe you shouldn't be involved in law enforcement and be allowed to carry a gun if can't control your temper 100% of the time.

Do you really think your Union would be OK with you having to answer questions like that? Probably not, but you're OK with a regular citizen have to give up their 5th Amendent rights in order to exercise their 2nd.

Do as I say, not as I do......
Without inflection:
You are reading way to much into what I said. I am trying to help you with some problem solving but that obviously is falling upon bias ears. If you knew me you would know I am one of the most pro 2A and CCW LEOs on my department and probably state wide. Before you cast misinformed opinions around the net perhaps you should get to know the person you are talking about.

cindynles
05-25-2011, 8:46 PM
You're right, I apologize for making judgements. I don't know you, but your statements seem to insinuate that you are OK with making citizens jump through hoops above and beyond the PC requirements. You said you thought those questions were reasonable. Obvisouly we disagree on what is considered reasonable.

The orginal issue you and I were debating is if the RSO CCW unit will issue to a "regular" citizen. I still contend that they will not. Sheriff Sniff has a stated policy of:

VALID DEATH THREATS OR HARRASSMENT ARE THE CRITERIA WHERE ISSUANCE OF A CCW PERMIT WILL BE CONSIDERED FOR PERSONAL PROTECTION. THE RIVERSIDE COUNTY SHERIFF DOES NOT ISSUE PERMITS TO “PROVIDE A FEELING OF SAFETY” OR TO ALLEVIATE A “FEAR OF VICTIMIZATION”.

I contend that policy does not apply to 99% of the citizens in Riverside County. It doesn't apply to me, a regular citizen, and I was denied. Could I have played the game better and "crafted" my good cause, kissed up to the CCW unit, gave up my 5th ammendent rights answering illegal questions, and been approved? Possibly. But I shouldn't have to. And in my opinion that means the RSO CCW unit will not issue to a "regular" citizen.

A "regular" citizen should be able to meet the PC requirements and be issued a permit.

yzernie
05-26-2011, 12:35 AM
I never said I agreed with their policies and procedures but there are ways to 'play their game'. If you choose not to play, that is your decision. Your ascertation of 5th amendment violations are without merit but if that is what you want to believe, then so be it.

My department apparently is more receptive to the needs to the good members of our communities. Because of my knowledge of firearms and my pro-active approach to firearm education, both on and off duty, I would like to think I may have had some influence in downtown's decisions regarding CCW.

Sorry you got denied but it may have happened for some reason you'll never know. I'm done trying to explain the process and help you. Please shoot safely.

AR15Kimo
05-26-2011, 5:21 AM
Not to butt in here, but as I'm in the process now in San Bernardino County.... I will go out of my way to elaborate anything extra in full detail that I believe will help my cause. I understand San Bernardino County is quite a bit more relaxed on the issue, but still. I think answering the additional "optional" questionaire and giving a little more detail on your cause IE: "I'm an avid hiker and have encountered dangerous animals in which I felt fear for my life on previous occasions before" I'm not sure it would've worked, but I bet it would've increased your odds substantially.

Good luck with the process! In 2012, the victor valley college might be offering the basic course at the new facility in Apple Valley. I'm not sure if you're aware of this. By that time I'll be in level 1. The new facility is said to be state of the art. The shooting range is suppose to be spectacular. The facility is located in Apple valley by the Wal-Mart distribution center.

Can't wait to be the first level 1 class!

cindynles
05-26-2011, 7:25 AM
I never said I agreed with their policies and procedures but there are ways to 'play their game'. If you choose not to play, that is your decision. Your ascertation of 5th amendment violations are without merit but if that is what you want to believe, then so be it.

My department apparently is more receptive to the needs to the good members of our communities. Because of my knowledge of firearms and my pro-active approach to firearm education, both on and off duty, I would like to think I may have had some influence in downtown's decisions regarding CCW.

Sorry you got denied but it may have happened for some reason you'll never know. I'm done trying to explain the process and help you. Please shoot safely.

Thanks for your input and I really didn't mean to start an argument. I misunderstood your intent and perhaps you misunderstood mine as well. I didn't realize that you were trying to offer advice on how to obtain a permit.

I am not looking for a way to play the game and get a CCW. If that were my intent I would be talking with an attorney like Jason Davis. I am content to wait until we have won our rights back through the court system and the Sheriff is forced to issue with a good cause of "self defense".

I just wanted to point out that, in my opinion (based on my experience), Riverside County will not be issuing CCWs just because of the layoffs in the department.

Roccobro
05-28-2011, 2:26 PM
So anyways, the county and my Union broke off talks yesterday without a compromise as well. But our Sheriff has promised no layoff and has been true to his word.

Like some posters have mentioned it looks like aggressive posturing. The Probation group were given 100+ pinks last month. The money was found within 2 weeks to cancel the layoffs. Even without the VLF fees going through. :rolleyes:

Justin

TurboChrisB
06-08-2011, 5:02 PM
Arrrggghhh...it's true...this is huge...

This is the first time in over 100 years they have been forced to lay off employees. 500 deputies.
--------------------------------------
Press Release: Sheriff Issues 100 Additional Layoff Notifications Total of 200 Deputies Now Given Notice, More to Come
Agency: Sheriff's Administration
Station Area: Countywide
Written Date: June 3, 2011 Time:
Incident Date: June 3, 2011 Time:
Incident Location: Riverside County
Reporting Officer: Corporal Courtney Donowho
Details:
The Riverside County Sheriff's Department notified its employees Thursday, June 2nd, that another 100 deputies will be laid off effective August 10th. This brings the current number of layoff notices to 200 deputies since May 13th, with plans continuing for the eventual reduction of staff in the department numbering 500 over the next few months, depending upon the outcome of the June 13th budget hearings by the Riverside County Board of Supervisors. Notifications of 800 will be required to achieve 500 actual positions lost through the CEO-advocated cuts.
In addition, on Wednesday, the department issued a massive reassignment and transfer list as it makes plans to remove staffing support for multi-agency gang task forces, sexual predator teams (SAFE), and frontline drug task forces that deal with marijuana dispensaries and the like. This transfer list is the first of a series of phased layoff notices that allows the agency to both downsize to meet the CEO budget target and to reallocate existing staff where they need to be within the reduced agency size. This transfer list will be effective June 30th and is linked to those initial layoff notices.
The Riverside County Sheriff's Department continues planning for next year's budget based upon the severe cuts to its services proposed by the CEO to the Board of Supervisors. The Board will approve the County's budget for next fiscal year at their June 13th budget meeting, and the new budget year starts on July 1st. For this next fiscal year, those proposed cuts remove nearly $60 million in funding, and will force some 500 fulltime positions to be laid off if approved by the Board.
During the week of May 16th, the Sheriff's Department issued 100 layoff notices to deputies that would be effective on July 13th, shortly after the start of the next fiscal year. Although the Sheriff's Department will not know what its final approved budget will be, and whether any or all of the layoffs will be necessary, it made the decision to provide as much early warning to the affected employees as it could. The cuts are so deep that the department could not wait in its planning without causing a sea of red ink after July 1st.
On May 24th, Supervisors Jeff Stone and Marion Ashley, effectively forced a meeting with CEO staff to begin looking at alternatives to the massive cuts to Sheriff's operations countywide being pushed by the CEO, and to push resolution to a jail crisis being caused by excessive CEO budget cuts to County Mental Health and the Regional Medical Center. As a result of that meeting and the Sheriff's personal arguments, increased funding adjustments for those two departments will be proposed to the Board of Supervisors while the Sheriff's Department awaits word from a more detailed outside study later this month on jail medical staffing needs.
The Sheriff issued the following statement on this latest round of layoff notices:
"We have a responsibility to follow the Board's guidance when they make a decision on June 13th on our funding levels, but we also have a responsibility to give our employees as much notice as possible so that they can reasonably make plans. To lay off any of our employees is a travesty and an incredible waste of taxpayer dollars in the face of dangerous times in many areas we serve. To give up jail capacity, precipitously drop patrol levels in the unincorporated areas, mothball any of our 10 patrol stations, or to give up critical multi-agency task forces and teams right now is very poor public policy and wasteful of already scarce public safety resources. If the CEO's budget proposal is approved, it will take us years to dig ourselves out of the mess this creates for our criminal justice system and the allied law enforcement agencies we work with in Riverside County."
Additional layoff notices and transfer orders will occur throughout the summer, causing considerable turbulence throughout all Sheriff's operations and the Department apologizes in advance to the public for the problems that it will create but hopes that the far-reaching impacts of our rapid downsizing is understood by communities.

Roccobro
06-09-2011, 10:06 AM
I guess we'll see what happens after the 13th. It's not a secret any Sheriff's political prowess shows up when budgets get tightened and when bloating is possible as well.

Corporal Courtney Donowho

If this is a new alias I LIKE IT!

Justin

Doheny
06-09-2011, 11:28 AM
Sad.

I know for fire fighters a state-wide list is maintained of those who are laid off. Other agencies can hire them, hopefully saving money not having to send them through another academy, additional training, etc. Is there such a program for cops?

Good luck to all.

cindynles
06-11-2011, 3:36 PM
Well it looks like its really going to happen. I met a deputy at the Rainbow Range Combat Match today who already got his notice.

I gave him my card, I may be able to get him a temp position until he lands another LEO position (or gets called back).

Very sad, I felt really bad for him. Only on the job for about a year.

Tacit Blue
06-11-2011, 3:54 PM
Looks like Private Security will be on the rise in Riverside County.... But in all seriousness, why earth wouldn't they allow a citizen to have a CCW like CIndynles... I saw what you wrote about animals and predators... Next time change to Social decline and and early release of inmates....

Anchors
06-11-2011, 7:03 PM
Riverside only houses felony and violent misdemeanor inmates. They are going to close over 500 beds and put those inmates on the streets again. Call the county board of supervisors and tell them what you think.

Violent criminals out on parole, laying off more deputies, and may-issue CCW policy. Sounds like a wonderful place.

The recent academy graduates sponsored by RSO were given pink slips at graduation. It is bad

Wow. How disheartening is that for those hopefuls? That is pretty messed up...I think I need to find someone else to be interested career-wise, because if these perfect candidates/seasoned LEOs are getting canned, I don't stand a chance..


The FACT is that the RSO CCW unit will NOT issue to a regular citizen. I am a regular citizen, honorably discharged veteran, of good moral character, not a prohibited person, who passed the LiveScan process, and Sheriff Sniff will NOT issue a CCW to me.

That is more than good enough in the real world. The sheriff is the problem, not you.

It is my personal belief those questions are reasonable when submitting for a CCW. What folks need to understand is, for Sheriff's to issue to someone they have to be certain there are no prohibited behaviors in their past or present. If you were the Sheriff wouldn't you want to ensure the same things before you issued?

This is just my opinion:

No, I wouldn't. Because the sheriff cannot be held liable for anything the CCW holder does and it is none of his business. They don't "have to be certain" at all. They can run a criminal history to find out all they need to know instead of fishing for undiscovered crimes. It isn't like he's applying to work for the department as a LEO, he doesn't need a full background investigation. If I were a criminal trying to get a CCW, wouldn't I lie on the questions anyway?
Furthermore, in Arizona my "questionnaire" for the CCW was the same as the questions on ATF Form 4473. I think that is more than enough.
Additionally, there is no evidence that shall issue policies have increased crime in any areas where they exist. In fact, in Phoenix (5th largest city in the country) there has been no increase in firearm crimes related to the passing of the law allowing anyone who is not prohibited under federal law to carry concealed.
This man is a veteran with firearms experience and no felony history, why can't he protect himself?
Actually, in Arizona he can apply for his permit and use his DD214 as his proof of firearms training and forego having to take any live-fire training (they assume being in the military was sufficient).

Do you disagree with shall issue CCW policies? Over 40 states are shall issue/unrestricted now...no problems so far...

ankyle62
06-11-2011, 7:09 PM
Man that is horrible, chance of getting hired in the future are becoming slim. :(

Tacit Blue
06-11-2011, 11:22 PM
Violent criminals out on parole, laying off more deputies, and may-issue CCW policy. Sounds like a wonderful place.



Wow. How disheartening is that for those hopefuls? That is pretty messed up...I think I need to find someone else to be interested career-wise, because if these perfect candidates/seasoned LEOs are getting canned, I don't stand a chance..



That is more than good enough in the real world. The sheriff is the problem, not you.



This is just my opinion:

No, I wouldn't. Because the sheriff cannot be held liable for anything the CCW holder does and it is none of his business. They don't "have to be certain" at all. They can run a criminal history to find out all they need to know instead of fishing for undiscovered crimes. It isn't like he's applying to work for the department as a LEO, he doesn't need a full background investigation. If I were a criminal trying to get a CCW, wouldn't I lie on the questions anyway?
Furthermore, in Arizona my "questionnaire" for the CCW was the same as the questions on ATF Form 4473. I think that is more than enough.
Additionally, there is no evidence that shall issue policies have increased crime in any areas where they exist. In fact, in Phoenix (5th largest city in the country) there has been no increase in firearm crimes related to the passing of the law allowing anyone who is not prohibited under federal law to carry concealed.
This man is a veteran with firearms experience and no felony history, why can't he protect himself?
Actually, in Arizona he can apply for his permit and use his DD214 as his proof of firearms training and forego having to take any live-fire training (they assume being in the military was sufficient).

Do you disagree with shall issue CCW policies? Over 40 states are shall issue/unrestricted now...no problems so far...

They're obviously trying to make it next to impossible to get one... Filling out paperwork and having good cause for issue is something i can understand. But when they start making you fill out a Investigative Questionare about irrelevant issues, and tell you to " be honest". They use that tactic to form suitability of that application for approval.... So in other words, yes they offer CCW's and they have their own internal requirements for approval.. Penal code 12050(a)(1) allows for the issuance of the CCW, but then RSO makes their own internal rules up. Will they ever give you an explanation as to why you were denied? No. They'll never tell you what the guidelines are. I think the CA DOJ CCW application should be the standard for issuance at least in terms of forms, but each agency wants us to play their rules..



An excerpt from RSO's CCW application.


1. Have you ever been denied a permit to carry a concealed weapon? When/Where?
__________________________________________________ _______________________
2. Have you ever had a license or permit to carry a concealed weapon suspended or revoked.
__________________________________________________ _____________________
3. Have you ever used another name or impersonated another person?
__________________________________________________ _______________________
4. Are you currently taking any prescription medication on a regular basis that may alter your
moods or impair your judgment?
__________________________________________________ ________________________
5. Have you ever been under the care of a psychiatrist or psychologist?
__________________________________________________ _________________________
6. Have you ever been placed into a mental health facility voluntarily or involuntarily?
__________________________________________________ _________________________
7. Have you ever been found not guilty in any type of circumstance by reason of insanity?
__________________________________________________ _________________________
8. Have you ever attempted suicide?
__________________________________________________ _________________________
9. How many alcoholic beverages do you consume in an average week?
__________________________________________________ _________________________
10. Have you ever been treated for alcoholism, substance abuse, or drug addiction?
__________________________________________________ _________________________
11. Have you ever driven a vehicle while under the influence of alcohol or drugs? If so, when
was the last time?
__________________________________________________ _________________________
12. Have you ever smoked, grown, or given marijuana to anyone? If so, when was the last time?
__________________________________________________ _________________________
13. Have you ever used, possessed, or sold any controlled substance? If so, when was the last
time?
__________________________________________________ _________________________
CCW_APP 6/7/2010 PDF REV 4/14 383814. Did you ever serve in the military, and what type of discharge did you receive?
__________________________________________________ _________________________
15. Were you ever court martialed, or receive other forms of disciplinary action?
__________________________________________________ _________________________
16. Were you ever in military confinement?
__________________________________________________ _________________________
17. Has your driver’s license (from any state) ever been suspended or revoked?
__________________________________________________ _________________________
18. Have you ever been involved in a hit and run accident?
__________________________________________________ _________________________
19. Have you ever had a traffic warrant issued for failure to appear? Where and when?
__________________________________________________ _________________________
20. Have you ever been placed on probation?
__________________________________________________ _________________________
21. Have you ever been involved in a police chase in which you were evading the police?
__________________________________________________ _________________________
22. Have you ever been arrested, detained, or questioned by the police as an adult or juvenile?
__________________________________________________ _________________________
23. Are there other crimes you have committed, for which you have not been caught?
__________________________________________________ _________________________
24. Have you ever been sentenced to jail or prison?
__________________________________________________ _________________________
25. Have you ever petitioned a court to have any record sealed? Result?
__________________________________________________ _________________________
26. Have you ever succeeded in having a felony conviction reduced to a misdemeanor?
__________________________________________________ _________________________
27. Are you now, or have you ever been a member of, or associated with, a street gang,
motorcycle gang, or similar organization?
__________________________________________________ _________________________
28. Have you ever been the victim of a violent crime? Explain.
__________________________________________________ _________________________
CCW_APP 6/7/2010 PDF REV 4/14 393929. When was the last time you lost control of your temper?
__________________________________________________ _________________________
30. When was the last time you were involved in a physical fight?
__________________________________________________ _________________________
31. How many times, if any, have you had to physically defend yourself?
__________________________________________________ _________________________
32. Have you ever carried an unauthorized concealed weapon upon your person, or in your
vehicle? If so, when was the last time?
__________________________________________________ _________________________
33. Is there anything in your background that you are trying to conceal?
__________________________________________________ _________________________
34. Is the residence address listed on your CCW application your primary residence? If no

Anchors
06-12-2011, 3:01 AM
They're obviously trying to make it next to impossible to get one... Filling out paperwork and having good cause for issue is something i can understand. But when they start making you fill out a Investigative Questionare about irrelevant issues, and tell you to " be honest". They use that tactic to form suitability of that application for approval.... So in other words, yes they offer CCW's and they have their own internal requirements for approval.. Penal code 12050(a)(1) allows for the issuance of the CCW, but then RSO makes their own internal rules up. Will they ever give you an explanation as to why you were denied? No. They'll never tell you what the guidelines are. I think the CA DOJ CCW application should be the standard for issuance at least in terms of forms, but each agency wants us to play their rules..



An excerpt from RSO's CCW application.


1. Have you ever been denied a permit to carry a concealed weapon? When/Where?
__________________________________________________ _______________________
2. Have you ever had a license or permit to carry a concealed weapon suspended or revoked.
__________________________________________________ _____________________
3. Have you ever used another name or impersonated another person?
__________________________________________________ _______________________
4. Are you currently taking any prescription medication on a regular basis that may alter your
moods or impair your judgment?
__________________________________________________ ________________________
5. Have you ever been under the care of a psychiatrist or psychologist?
__________________________________________________ _________________________
6. Have you ever been placed into a mental health facility voluntarily or involuntarily?
__________________________________________________ _________________________
7. Have you ever been found not guilty in any type of circumstance by reason of insanity?
__________________________________________________ _________________________
8. Have you ever attempted suicide?
__________________________________________________ _________________________
9. How many alcoholic beverages do you consume in an average week?
__________________________________________________ _________________________
10. Have you ever been treated for alcoholism, substance abuse, or drug addiction?
__________________________________________________ _________________________
11. Have you ever driven a vehicle while under the influence of alcohol or drugs? If so, when
was the last time?
__________________________________________________ _________________________
12. Have you ever smoked, grown, or given marijuana to anyone? If so, when was the last time?
__________________________________________________ _________________________
13. Have you ever used, possessed, or sold any controlled substance? If so, when was the last
time?
__________________________________________________ _________________________
CCW_APP 6/7/2010 PDF REV 4/14 383814. Did you ever serve in the military, and what type of discharge did you receive?
__________________________________________________ _________________________
15. Were you ever court martialed, or receive other forms of disciplinary action?
__________________________________________________ _________________________
16. Were you ever in military confinement?
__________________________________________________ _________________________
17. Has your driver’s license (from any state) ever been suspended or revoked?
__________________________________________________ _________________________
18. Have you ever been involved in a hit and run accident?
__________________________________________________ _________________________
19. Have you ever had a traffic warrant issued for failure to appear? Where and when?
__________________________________________________ _________________________
20. Have you ever been placed on probation?
__________________________________________________ _________________________
21. Have you ever been involved in a police chase in which you were evading the police?
__________________________________________________ _________________________
22. Have you ever been arrested, detained, or questioned by the police as an adult or juvenile?
__________________________________________________ _________________________
23. Are there other crimes you have committed, for which you have not been caught?
__________________________________________________ _________________________
24. Have you ever been sentenced to jail or prison?
__________________________________________________ _________________________
25. Have you ever petitioned a court to have any record sealed? Result?
__________________________________________________ _________________________
26. Have you ever succeeded in having a felony conviction reduced to a misdemeanor?
__________________________________________________ _________________________
27. Are you now, or have you ever been a member of, or associated with, a street gang,
motorcycle gang, or similar organization?
__________________________________________________ _________________________
28. Have you ever been the victim of a violent crime? Explain.
__________________________________________________ _________________________
CCW_APP 6/7/2010 PDF REV 4/14 393929. When was the last time you lost control of your temper?
__________________________________________________ _________________________
30. When was the last time you were involved in a physical fight?
__________________________________________________ _________________________
31. How many times, if any, have you had to physically defend yourself?
__________________________________________________ _________________________
32. Have you ever carried an unauthorized concealed weapon upon your person, or in your
vehicle? If so, when was the last time?
__________________________________________________ _________________________
33. Is there anything in your background that you are trying to conceal?
__________________________________________________ _________________________
34. Is the residence address listed on your CCW application your primary residence? If no

LOL WOW!!
This is what my AZ CCW application's "questionnaire" consisted of in its entirety...


YES or NO
1. Are you a United States citizen born in the United States or one of its territories?
If NO, proceed to next question.

2. Are you a United States citizen born outside of the United States or one of its territories?

3. Are you currently under indictment for a felony offense

4. Have you ever been convicted of a felony offense?

5. Are you currently under indictment for a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence?

6. Have you ever been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence?

7. Have you been discharged from the United States Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions?

8. Have you been adjudicated as mentally incompetent or committed to a mental institution?

Let me give you a cheat sheet:
Yes
N/A
No
No
No
No
No
No

I can't believe the audacity of the questions on the RSO application, I bet that would be what the DROS form would look like if it was up to some of these sheriffs...

yzernie
06-12-2011, 6:14 AM
Do you disagree with shall issue CCW policies? Over 40 states are shall issue/unrestricted now...no problems so far...
No I do not disagree with a shall issue policy. However, I alone, or even LE as a whole, do not have the power to sway some Sheriff's or Chief's opinions on the matter. I'm lucky enough to work for a Sheriff who appreciates the ability of the good citizens to excerise their 2A rights.

Anchors
06-12-2011, 3:26 PM
No I do not disagree with a shall issue policy. However, I alone, or even LE as a whole, do not have the power to sway some Sheriff's or Chief's opinions on the matter. I'm lucky enough to work for a Sheriff who appreciates the ability of the good citizens to excerise their 2A rights.

Nice. That is awesome.
I just wasn't sure because you seemed to agree with the sheriff's policies, but it is clear now that you merely recognize his right as codified in the law to have them.