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View Full Version : Discuss: CA Legal and fully functional Home Defense Carbine


Salty
05-19-2011, 9:18 PM
Situation: My wife and I are in the process of replacing our main home defense gun, a Beretta 92 series pistol as it never fit either of us very well. Preliminary pawing of guns at the local sporting goods and gun stores put various wheel guns and M&P's are on the top of the handgun list right now. However, we are also considering a carbine as we already have another home defense pistol and have always wanted a semi-auto centerfire rifle. We live in an 850sq/ft house in a neighborhood where the average lot size is about 5000 sq/ft. The longest possible unobscured shot within our property would be about 50-75 yards. This will also serve as our "bugout gun".

Requirements:
No bullet buttons
Removable magazine
Carbine length
Reliable
Not only practical for HD, but fun to shoot at the range or in the woods as well (all of our guns double as fun guys)
MOA accuracy isn't required, but it should be accurate enough to enjoy at the 50 yard line
No exotic calibers
$1000 MAX budget, prefer $900 or less

There you have it. Discuss! I've already got a short list worked up in my head, but I'll keep that to myself in favor of a more open discussion. Interested to hear what people have to say. :)

FatalKitty
05-19-2011, 9:29 PM
Up until very recently I believed my remington870 was the best he weapon in existence... and it serves that purpose very well. I keep it loaded with a full tube of fed LE 00 buck beside my bed. But lately I've been thinking about bugging out, and how doing that with a shotgun is not the best thing, as ammo is quite bulky for it. I still consider my 870 to be the best he weapon in my lineup (which is pretty humble) as I have taken many courses with it and feel most proficient at it. I am hoping to find more tactical carbine courses that I can attend and round out my skills a little more. Maybe an ar with 10 rounds of 556 can be just as good as an 870 with 7 rounds of 00 buck with enough training

oaklander
05-19-2011, 9:35 PM
OMG!

The answer screams in my head:

M1 Carbine - FTW!!!!

:D

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_msb7eQA-RFY/Sh568VBkGdI/AAAAAAAABAk/nRzwv_mWlto/s400/malcolm-x-by-any-means-necessary-276x400.jpg

Good enough for my man, good enough for me. . .

dfletcher
05-19-2011, 9:38 PM
I suppose I would go with an M1 carbine, a Mini 14 or a rifle I just bought - Benelli Mr1. If you happen to have older hi cap M1 or AR magazines laying about from previously owned versions that's helpful I suppose.

Is anything "more fun" to shoot at the range than an M1 carbine? :)

Dead*Reckoned
05-19-2011, 9:40 PM
mini 14, kel tec su-16 ca, saiga .223, featureless AR, shotgun with slugs, m1 carbine....

racky
05-19-2011, 9:41 PM
or a featurless AK!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iq7LAo1yScE
iq7LAo1yScE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvtuewi15pc
jvtuewi15pc

Snapping Twig
05-19-2011, 9:46 PM
Saiga 7.62x39, made in the Izmash factory - the original Russian AK.

Consider a .357, .44 or .45 lever gun. No mag, but 10 in the tube and bolt gun accuracy with fast handling in a short length package.

Mini 30 or 14.

Remington 760 pump rifle.

I prefer a handgun for HD in .45acp.

motorwerks
05-19-2011, 9:56 PM
SALTY!!!!!! :chris:

Come shoot all the AR's ya want, Radocks are easy enough. :)

Nate87
05-19-2011, 10:01 PM
Racky, that video of the featureless AK just inspired me. That may just be my next rifle...... That thing is pretty sweet.

drclark
05-19-2011, 10:05 PM
No bullet button means the list is short to begin with.

Mini14/30
Su16
Saiga
Benelli mr1
M1 carbine

M1 carbine ammo is not as common as 5.56 or 7.62x39.

All are fun to shoot and are accurate enough to 100 yds. Su16 is good for bug out due to its light weight and foldability/concealability but might be less durable long term and some don't like the std irons. Has built-in rail for red dot or other optic.

Mini or saiga are pretty rugged and reliable and probably similar accuracy. Saiga has least options for optics. Mini ranch or newer models have rings but will likely need aftermarket mounts for some red dot / reflex / acog style optics.

Mr1 is newest on the market, least reliability history and probably most expensive.

Remington had a pump action carbine similar to an 870 and there are lever action carbines that might be a good option if you already have a wheel gun in .357.

Ruger also used to make a carbine in .44 magnum and the also had pistol caliber carbines in .40sw or 9mm. None are currently in production but do pop up on the used market from time to time.
Just some thoughts

racky
05-19-2011, 10:11 PM
Racky, that video of the featureless AK just inspired me. That may just be my next rifle...... That thing is pretty sweet.

let me tell ya, an AK in a carbine class is the most fun you can have with clothes on. sorry to say but my AR gets boring sometimes.

Bhobbs
05-19-2011, 10:40 PM
OMG!

The answer screams in my head:

M1 Carbine - FTW!!!!

:D

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_msb7eQA-RFY/Sh568VBkGdI/AAAAAAAABAk/nRzwv_mWlto/s400/malcolm-x-by-any-means-necessary-276x400.jpg

Good enough for my man, good enough for me. . .

+1 on the M1 carbine.

NSR500
05-19-2011, 10:49 PM
Saiga 7.62x39

/Thread

Cyc Wid It
05-20-2011, 12:10 AM
Not that difficult to do mag changes with a bullet button, all things require practice.

2JaotF-n7gI

Reductio
05-20-2011, 12:21 AM
No bullet button means the list is short to begin with.

Mini14/30
Su16
Saiga
Benelli mr1
M1 carbine


What, never seen a featureless AR or AK?

Salty
05-20-2011, 12:58 AM
Wow, great inputs so far! I've been out of the loop for some time and didn't even know about the MR1 or AR mags with the BB tool on the end. My short list prior to creating this thread was the M1 carbine, Siaga (not sure what cal), and the Mini-14. I shouldered an M1 and Mini-14 last weekend. The Mini fit like a glove, but I loved how light and compact the M1 was, especially as a home defense candidate. I've definitely got some more guns to shoulder test and fondle before making a decision though. But I'm gonna have to do some driving as all I can find in Santa Cruz County is M1's and Mini's.

For the M1 Carbine fans, do you prefer surplus or new production for home defence, and is there anything I should know about the differences between the two?

Oh, and hi Motorworks, fancy meeting you here. ;-P

jumbopanda
05-20-2011, 1:07 AM
What, never seen a featureless AR or AK?

+100

ren
05-20-2011, 5:25 AM
based on your options I would chose a saiga or keltec su16. two different user can react differently
to a situation. I feel somewhat comfortable with bb mag changes, my wife not so much. this is one part of the reason I want to featureless now.

drclark
05-20-2011, 6:14 AM
I have a featureless AK and a bullet-button AR. I don't consider either one of viable options for home defense or bugout situations. Too much stuff possibly going on in a stressful situation to be fumbling around with a funky grip or bb-tool and 10th rnd mags. Also don't feel like I want to be walking thru the flowchart with officers responding to a home defense shooting.

Also understanding that the family of the home invader will likely sue (regardless of whether or not police rule it a good shoot and 50-75 yds is questionable for self defense) I also want a jury-friendly firearm so I don't want anything a plaintiffs attorney can construe as an illegal aw or machine gun as my primary hd gun.

Lastly any firearm used in a hd setting will likely be taken into custody as evidence until your case works its way thru the legal system. With that in mind I would rather use the least expensive plain-Jane gun rather than a tricked out AR will all the cool do-dads.

My vote for the op's question would be mini14 with std 5 rnd mags or 10 rnd mags (no 10/30s) for self defense. Search the for sale section and you can usually find them for 500ish.

CalTeacher
05-20-2011, 6:30 AM
I have a featureless AK and a bullet-button AR. I don't consider either one of viable options for home defense or bugout situations. Too much stuff possibly going on in a stressful situation to be fumbling around with a funky grip or bb-tool and 10th rnd mags. Also don't feel like I want to be walking thru the flowchart with officers responding to a home defense shooting.

Also understanding that the family of the home invader will likely sue (regardless of whether or not police rule it a good shoot and 50-75 yds is questionable for self defense) I also want a jury-friendly firearm so I don't want anything a plaintiffs attorney can construe as an illegal aw or machine gun as my primary hd gun.

Lastly any firearm used in a hd setting will likely be taken into custody as evidence until your case works its way thru the legal system. With that in mind I would rather use the least expensive plain-Jane gun rather than a tricked out AR will all the cool do-dads.

My vote for the op's question would be mini14 with std 5 rnd mags or 10 rnd mags (no 10/30s) for self defense. Search the for sale section and you can usually find them for 500ish.

Well, if you are talking to the cops that much after you've just shot someone, you're probably not the sharpest marble anyways. You tell the cops to arrest/carry out the man you just shot because you were in fear for your life, then stfu until you have a lawyer. Your gun will probably taken as evidence anyways, as you said. If you're gun is legal, then there is nothing to worry about.

Plus, there are so many options for featureless grips that aren't clumsy at all. If you've properly trained with your featureless rifle, then this should be a non issue.

+1 for the mini 14 suggestion as they are much cheaper than an AR should it ever go missing for extended periods in an evidence room.

Z.1
05-20-2011, 6:51 AM
let me tell ya, an AK in a carbine class is the most fun you can have with clothes on. sorry to say but my AR gets boring sometimes.

Blasphemy!! Say 10 "AR Fathers" and 1913 "Rail Marys" as penance ;)

X-NewYawker
05-20-2011, 7:07 AM
CA legal -- M-16 magazines -- reliable --
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p54/Fasanoland/IMG_6415.jpg

Meet Mister One -- Benelli MR-1

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p54/Fasanoland/P1010416.jpg

ClickClickBoom
05-20-2011, 7:10 AM
Hey,
Get a cheap Mossberg 12 gauge and fill with your choice of rounds. Nothing says get out of my house like a chest full of 12 gauge. When the cops show, point them to the carcass, show them the Mossberg, and say "I want my lawyer". Who cares if the Mossie comes back from the PD, plenty more where that one came from. Spend you money on a fun range gun and don't compromise.
Eric

Lagduf
05-20-2011, 7:25 AM
I know this doesn't meet your detachable magazine requirement, but what about an SKS?

Grumpyoldretiredcop
05-20-2011, 7:28 AM
Featureless AR (grip wrap, MM or Hammerhead depending on which works for you), ACE entry stock to keep overall length short, handguard rail adapter to mount a light, fixed iron sights, no other bells or whistles.

IPSICK
05-20-2011, 7:50 AM
Not that difficult to do mag changes with a bullet button, all things require practice.

2JaotF-n7gI

I just noticed in the demo videos for the UBBT, the guy uses his right hand for mag changes for left and right hand shooting. I think if you're left handed the UBBT seems like a really good option because you keep your shooting hand on the pistol grip. Just seems awkward to use if you are right handed.

Additionally, he's pulling the mags from a table. I wonder what it would look like drawing from a belt-mounted mag pouch. It might work on a chest rig or similar.

Anyone brave enough to do a video demo that shows how this could work?

I say featureless is a better option if you want detachable mag functionality form an AR.

Knife Edge
05-20-2011, 8:12 AM
But lately I've been thinking about bugging out, and how doing that with a shotgun is not the best thing, as ammo is quite bulky for it. Maybe an ar with 10 rounds of 556 can be just as good as an 870 with 7 rounds of 00 buck with enough training

If you MUST bugout, why in God's name would you do that with a bullet button installed. Think about your logic for a moment. You want to play by the rules when society is collapsing before you. Do you think the roving squads of criminals will be worried about a featureless build? C'mon partner...

JaeOne3345
05-20-2011, 8:18 AM
I have a featureless AK and a bullet-button AR. I don't consider either one of viable options for home defense or bugout situations. Too much stuff possibly going on in a stressful situation to be fumbling around with a funky grip or bb-tool and 10th rnd mags. Also don't feel like I want to be walking thru the flowchart with officers responding to a home defense shooting.


What kinda funky grip are you speaking of that would prohibit you from using it in a self defense situation? Myself and many others compete with featureless rifles where you have to shoot from all kinds of positions, and it has never been a hinderance.

Knife Edge
05-20-2011, 8:20 AM
Saiga 7.62x39, made in the Izmash factory - the original Russian AK.

Consider a .357, .44 or .45 lever gun. No mag, but 10 in the tube and bolt gun accuracy with fast handling in a short length package.

Mini 30 or 14.

Remington 760 pump rifle.

I prefer a handgun for HD in .45acp.

Socom II or 16. It's heavy/short and you can mount a light, sling, optics and previously owned 20 rounders. Good enough for WWII, modernized just enough to still be viable as a featureless today.

r6raff
05-20-2011, 8:29 AM
I just noticed in the demo videos for the UBBT, the guy uses his right hand for mag changes for left and right hand shooting. I think if you're left handed the UBBT seems like a really good option because you keep your shooting hand on the pistol grip. Just seems awkward to use if you are right handed.

Additionally, he's pulling the mags from a table. I wonder what it would look like drawing from a belt-mounted mag pouch. It might work on a chest rig or similar.

Anyone brave enough to do a video demo that shows how this could work?

I say featureless is a better option if you want detachable mag functionality form an AR.

Totally, I use this as a right handed shooter and I can see this setup favoring lefties for sure. Feeding from a belt or chest rig isnt to much of an issue, still happens pretty damn quick. The only issue I see is it is pretty much impossible to do tactical reloads unless you use both hands or do some real clumsy *** juggle. Eitherway it is pretty damn effective considering the alternative, for HD though I will probably go to the handgun. Bugout, my AR will be right by my side 24/7 with as much 556 as I and my family members can carry.

r6raff
05-20-2011, 8:32 AM
If you MUST bugout, why in God's name would you do that with a bullet button installed. Think about your logic for a moment. You want to play by the rules when society is collapsing before you. Do you think the roving squads of criminals will be worried about a featureless build? C'mon partner...

Yea, in that scenario, raddlock is getting unlocked, and ill be using all my 30 and 20rnders with my rifle to boot. Hightailing it to Nevada where all the cool kids with FA are holding out... I want to be on their team:chris:

QQQ
05-20-2011, 9:15 AM
Yea, in that scenario, raddlock is getting unlocked, and ill be using all my 30 and 20rnders with my rifle to boot. Hightailing it to Nevada where all the cool kids with FA are holding out... I want to be on their team:chris:

The last thing I would do in TEOTWAWKI is head out to a place where I know there's a bunch of survival-minded strangers with FA rifles. To them, I'd just be another target.

motorwerks
05-20-2011, 9:19 AM
Hey,
Get a cheap Mossberg 12 gauge and fill with your choice of rounds. Nothing says get out of my house like a chest full of 12 gauge. When the cops show, point them to the carcass, show them the Mossberg, and say "I want my lawyer". Who cares if the Mossie comes back from the PD, plenty more where that one came from. Spend you money on a fun range gun and don't compromise.
Eric

I just happen to know they have a 500 already....

I also have to say I like the way you think!!!! Off I go to Big 5 to pick up a 500 :D

r6raff
05-20-2011, 9:20 AM
The last thing I would do in TEOTWAWKI is head out to a place where I know there's a bunch of survival-minded strangers with FA rifles. To them, I'd just be another target.

Hahaha, you bring up a very valid point... Either another target or a oneway delivery of large amounts of ammo with disposable carriers. I also live in the North State so im kinda already in gun crazy land. Where the hell do I go then... tree forts I guess, swissfamily robinson style.

motorwerks
05-20-2011, 9:22 AM
CA legal -- M-16 magazines -- reliable --
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p54/Fasanoland/IMG_6415.jpg

Meet Mister One -- Benelli MR-1

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p54/Fasanoland/P1010416.jpg

I have to admit, as much as I wanted to hate these...... turns out they aren't half bad. I haven't shot one yet but I its .223 its not like its going to have a ton of recoil.

deadcoyote
05-20-2011, 9:25 AM
Here's my two corroded used pennys. While I am a much bigger fan of the 7.62x39 round for under 200 yard applications, you'd be much better served with a 5.56 due to overpenetration issues with the x39 round in your subdivision. I would recommend either a mini-14 or a Saiga with the bullet guide in 5.45x39 (? not sure exactly what the com bloc .223 equivalent is). The Saiga / AK-74 mags are cheap and ammo is plentiful. If you're put off or uncomftorable with corrosive ammo, go with the 5.56 mini-14.

IPSICK
05-20-2011, 9:27 AM
Totally, I use this as a right handed shooter and I can see this setup favoring lefties for sure. Feeding from a belt or chest rig isnt to much of an issue, still happens pretty damn quick. The only issue I see is it is pretty much impossible to do tactical reloads unless you use both hands or do some real clumsy *** juggle. Eitherway it is pretty damn effective considering the alternative, for HD though I will probably go to the handgun. Bugout, my AR will be right by my side 24/7 with as much 556 as I and my family members can carry.

I just can't see how pulling from a belt is effective considering I would likely have a sidearm on my right side as well. With only 10-rounders as an option I'd need multiple mags with only so much room on my belt and having to reach for them behind my back. I guess I need video.

dieselpower
05-20-2011, 9:28 AM
Situation: My wife and I are in the process of replacing our main home defense gun, a Beretta 92 series pistol as it never fit either of us very well. Preliminary pawing of guns at the local sporting goods and gun stores put various wheel guns and M&P's are on the top of the handgun list right now. However, we are also considering a carbine as we already have another home defense pistol and have always wanted a semi-auto centerfire rifle. We live in an 850sq/ft house in a neighborhood where the average lot size is about 5000 sq/ft. The longest possible unobscured shot within our property would be about 50-75 yards. This will also serve as our "bugout gun".

Requirements:
No bullet buttons (fail of logic)
Removable magazine
Carbine length
Reliable
Not only practical for HD, but fun to shoot at the range or in the woods as well (all of our guns double as fun guys)
MOA accuracy isn't required, but it should be accurate enough to enjoy at the 50 yard line
No exotic calibers
$1000 MAX budget, prefer $900 or less

There you have it. Discuss! I've already got a short list worked up in my head, but I'll keep that to myself in favor of a more open discussion. Interested to hear what people have to say. :)

You want an AR15, originally chambered in 5.56, then just buy different uppers and a .22lr conversion bolt to start with.

Why do you care about a BB? Its a NON-issue. I have nothing against the grip systems out there, but people who have issue with the BB have no validity to their claims or fact of real world situations to back up their claims...

I can swap my BB for a real magazine release in less time then you can load a 30rd magazine (without Clips). If it EVER came down to that... where hordes of zombie commy soldiers are storming my barbed wire fence line and my m249 SAW gunner has taken a crit hit to the chest...I will remove the BB.

Please don't buy into the "Im a SEAL Ranger Spec-Ops Guy" I need to drop magazines like they do mindset. Its not rational thinking. It takes less than 1 second MORE to swap a magazine with a BB installed. 10rds is more than enough to deal with whatever you TRULY will encounter in REAL LIFE. A few extra 10rd magazines and you can hold off that zombie horde...then find a quick 1 minute to swap the BB for a real release button if needed...:rolleyes:

motorwerks
05-20-2011, 9:32 AM
OH OH OH OH OH I have it. Take that 500 of yours, swap out the barrel for an 18.5, and then buy a nicer shoty for the trap clubthingy!!!

IPSICK
05-20-2011, 9:32 AM
You want an AR15, originally chambered in 5.56, then just buy different uppers and a .22lr conversion bolt to start with.

Why do you care about a BB? Its a NON-issue. I have nothing against the grip systems out there, but people who have issue with the BB have no validity to their claims or fact of real world situations to back up their claims...

I can swap my BB for a real magazine release in less time then you can load a 30rd magazine (without Clips). If it EVER came down to that... where hordes of zombie commy soldiers are storming my barbed wire fence line and my m249 SAW gunner has taken a crit hit to the chest...I will remove the BB.

Please don't buy into the "Im a SEAL Ranger Spec-Ops Guy" I need to drop magazines like they do mindset. Its not rational thinking. It takes less than 1 second MORE to swap a magazine with a BB installed. 10rds is more than enough to deal with whatever you TRULY will encounter in REAL LIFE. A few extra 10rd magazines and you can hold off that zombie horde...then find a quick 1 minute to swap the BB for a real release button if needed...:rolleyes:


I definitely agree with your point in bold but could you describe your mag change process using bullet buttons? Do you use a UBBT equipped mag or something else to release the magazine?

motorwerks
05-20-2011, 9:37 AM
PS Radlocks take less time to swap back and come with a tool that fits into the pistol grip. :D

dieselpower
05-20-2011, 9:39 AM
I definitely agree with your point in bold but could you describe your mag change process using bullet buttons? Do you use a UBBT equipped mag or something else to release the magazine?

100% UBBT or like system. The tool on the next magazine is a genius idea. I would reward them with buying their product, but you are free to do as you would.

The only situation where you would not have an extra magazine, to remove your empty magazine, is if you are just dropping them and leaving them on the ground.... in that ONE situation you are screwed anyway and are planning to win or die trying. When you last magazine is dry...its over.

If you carry clips, then a bullet on the clip is the tool..9 and not 10...BFD the last round has your name on it..cuz you don't want to be eaten alive.

JB-Norcal
05-20-2011, 9:42 AM
Since you state that your 92 doesn't fit, I'll assume it's big and that smaller would be better. How about a PG 410 or 20 shotgun? not a big ticket buy. Or maybe a SU-16CA for under 600, it gives you 3-10 round mag capability, and can accept USGI 30's if available.
I'd go with another wheel gun or SG of your choosing, and use some of your budget for some HD training, it's fun and gets the 2 of you on the same page. You can have all the tools in the world, but if you're not able to use them correctly, or at least confidently, then it kind of defeats the purpose.

dieselpower
05-20-2011, 10:07 AM
another thing before I hit the gym.

The AR15 one of the only firearms where you can be an expert in its repair in a few hours spent surfing the Internet. A few weeks of watching 1.5 BILLION videos on-line, 1.5 BILLION retailers suppling parts... the saturation of the AR15 into the firearms community is the strongest point the rifle has. For all its flaws [if you can fine one]... there is an AR15, or parts to repair one, within walking distance of any US household.

buy 1 or 2 lowers, and you and the wife build it yourselves. Its easy really and you are a member here...one of us can help even over the phone if need be. After putting one together you know all the parts, and if anything goes wrong you know or at least have an idea of how to fix it.

all a person needs in this world is a Glock, an AR15 and a multi-tool...thats it.

Standard
05-20-2011, 10:07 AM
You want an AR15, originally chambered in 5.56, then just buy different uppers and a .22lr conversion bolt to start with.

Why do you care about a BB? Its a NON-issue. I have nothing against the grip systems out there, but people who have issue with the BB have no validity to their claims or fact of real world situations to back up their claims...

I can swap my BB for a real magazine release in less time then you can load a 30rd magazine (without Clips). If it EVER came down to that... where hordes of zombie commy soldiers are storming my barbed wire fence line and my m249 SAW gunner has taken a crit hit to the chest...I will remove the BB.

Please don't buy into the "Im a SEAL Ranger Spec-Ops Guy" I need to drop magazines like they do mindset. Its not rational thinking. It takes less than 1 second MORE to swap a magazine with a BB installed. 10rds is more than enough to deal with whatever you TRULY will encounter in REAL LIFE. A few extra 10rd magazines and you can hold off that zombie horde...then find a quick 1 minute to swap the BB for a real release button if needed...:rolleyes:

Thank you, this needs to be understood by most people who think this way.

I have the "ultimate bullet button tool" installed on all of my mags. It's a little nub near the bottom of each mag that I use to depress the BB with, then load itself into the magwell.
So I'm in shooting position, release right hand while retaining grip on rifle with left, grab magazine with right hand, use it to depress the BB, mag drops free, rotate new mag slightly, insert, close bolt. Takes very little time at all.

Salty
05-20-2011, 10:24 AM
Re: breaking the law when SHTF (remove bb, etc): Durring the California Tsunami, panic set in here and people ran for the hills, roads became gridlocked, and fights broke out at gas stations - even some emergency responce personel were assaulted. That's a situation where you may find yourself playing defense, but not so horrible that it warrants breaking the law. Even in a Katrina type situation the law is going to have no sympathy for those who break it. I see that as more of a hinderance than an advantage.

tomd1584
05-20-2011, 10:31 AM
seems like a pointless discussion since the end of the world is happening tomorrow.

-Tom

K-mossberg
05-20-2011, 10:32 AM
Id say go ca AR (featureless)

Salty
05-20-2011, 10:44 AM
seems like a pointless discussion since the end of the world is happening tomorrow.

-Tom

Doh!:eek:

CalTeacher
05-20-2011, 11:21 AM
You want an AR15, originally chambered in 5.56, then just buy different uppers and a .22lr conversion bolt to start with.

Why do you care about a BB? Its a NON-issue. I have nothing against the grip systems out there, but people who have issue with the BB have no validity to their claims or fact of real world situations to back up their claims...

I can swap my BB for a real magazine release in less time then you can load a 30rd magazine (without Clips). If it EVER came down to that... where hordes of zombie commy soldiers are storming my barbed wire fence line and my m249 SAW gunner has taken a crit hit to the chest...I will remove the BB.

Please don't buy into the "Im a SEAL Ranger Spec-Ops Guy" I need to drop magazines like they do mindset. Its not rational thinking. It takes less than 1 second MORE to swap a magazine with a BB installed. 10rds is more than enough to deal with whatever you TRULY will encounter in REAL LIFE. A few extra 10rd magazines and you can hold off that zombie horde...then find a quick 1 minute to swap the BB for a real release button if needed...:rolleyes:
So, what if you drop your BB tool? What if you need to clear a malfunction? What if you fall and you destroy your magazine in the process? Would you want a mag lock on your pistol you keep for home defense? My guess would be that you wouldn't.

I can change magazines faster than you can locate your BB tool.

And if you ever need to actually use your rifle for defensive purposes, you can go ahead and hope you only need 10 rounds. I prefer to have way more than that if I need them. This is the same reason why I carry spare mags for my pistols when I carry them. If I ever need to draw my weapon, I better be ready to also have to change mags if need be.

Additionally, you have no way of prediciting what you will face in real life. This has nothing to do with zombies, aliens, etc.

Salty
05-20-2011, 11:45 AM
Heres a thought to ponder, what advantages does a BB equiped carbine have over something with a more "traditional" stock and removable mags?

Also, any tips on where I can find something other than a Mini or M1 Carbine to shoulder and fiddle with within say 50ish miles of Santa Cruz? I tried Big 5, Outdoor World, amd Markleys, all they have is mini's and M1's.

Oh and RE: the SKS suggestion. Ya know, I was thinking about that. I've never played with clips so I have no idea how easy they are to use to reload the mag. I do love the shape and size and the fact that there is no magazine to loose though. I think self contained guns have some real merrit in certain situations. What I do like about mags though is that I can stuff one in my pocket or clip two together. My wife shoots left handed, and I shoot right, so I'm not sure if a pouch with a loaded stripper clip or two in it strapped to the butt stock would work too well for us (never tried it).

003
05-20-2011, 11:54 AM
I recently purhased a used, but in new condition Ruger PC 9 carbine. While no longer in production, they are still available for sale on the net. From my perspective, they are a first rate home defense carbine. (9mm +P+ out of an 18 inch barrel will certainly get the attention of any bad guy that comes around. Light, handy and no recoil, with excellent 100 yard energy and accuracy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruger_Police_Carbine

762.DEFENSE
05-20-2011, 11:57 AM
Featureless AK-47, AK-47, Featureless AR, M-1 Carbine, or Saiga in either 7.62x39, 5.56x45 etc..

dieselpower
05-20-2011, 11:57 AM
So, what if you drop your BB tool? What if you need to clear a malfunction? What if you fall and you destroy your magazine in the process? Would you want a mag lock on your pistol you keep for home defense? My guess would be that you wouldn't.

I can change magazines faster than you can locate your BB tool.

And if you ever need to actually use your rifle for defensive purposes, you can go ahead and hope you only need 10 rounds. I prefer to have way more than that if I need them. This is the same reason why I carry spare mags for my pistols when I carry them. If I ever need to draw my weapon, I better be ready to also have to change mags if need be.

Additionally, you have no way of prediciting what you will face in real life. This has nothing to do with zombies, aliens, etc.

no, you can't...my BB tool is on every magazine I own. so my hand will hit my tool about the same time your finger hits the button....

some peoples BB tool is on the end of their finger or glove....

stop trying to mock something you dont have to make yourself feel better about YOUR choice.

There is nothing wrong with featurless...whats wrong is people with featurless trying to mock BBs.... just stop the bashing.

/thread-jack

IPSICK
05-20-2011, 12:02 PM
Just read the OP's requirements and I don't see why a semi-auto shotgun w/ 10-round tube setup for use with speed loaders would not work.

CFYo3i0N-WQ

ZombieTactics
05-20-2011, 12:04 PM
A possible good choice:

qIvy0WEjSbY

motogunner356
05-20-2011, 12:05 PM
just ask yourself wwcld: what would clind eastwood do?

drop a clip in an m1 and scowl in the most grizzled face saying get off my lawn.

for another suggestion i would maybe look into a garand. ammo is very common not to mention powerful and you can get bandoliers for them . bb's are a non factor, reloading after a little training can be very quick.

but with whatever gun you settle on training is the key. whether you have a shotgun pistol ar ak or a red rider lever action bb rifle you need to be compentent in operating it.

jrr
05-20-2011, 12:06 PM
Ok, my .02c...
M1 Carbine all the way. My reasons:

1. a .30 carbine is roughly equal to a .357 magnum in lbs/ft of energy on target. Nobody would ever argue that a .357 magnum is underpowered. It isn't a full power rifle cartridge, but it isn't supposed to be.
2. Based on the above, the .30 carbine has a huge advantage over a full power rifle round inside a house... less penetration. A .30 carbine will go through a couple walls of standard sheetrock. A .223 can conceivably go through ten or twelve. Google "box of truth" and check some real world testing on penetration of various calibers.
3. Easy to handle, low recoil, fast follow up shots. An AR in .223 has light recoil too. But will have more flash and noise, which in a HD scenario with no ear protection is a big deal. An M1 carbine weighs slightly less than an AR, and is about the same overall length. Also, the carbine is using the stock which it was designed to use, unlike an AR with a Hammerhead or AK with a grip fin. I have a hammerhead AR, and its fine for the range... but not as comfortale as the carbine.
4. Reliability. Ok, this one varies. A good GI shooter is extremley reliable, unless you are using grease rated to 20 degrees in the Korean winter at -15 degrees. Some of the commercial copies, especially late Iver Johnson and Universal ones, are not as reliable. Fortunately a good mixed parts GI carbine can be had on gunbroker for around $600.
6. its FUN! My carbine with an Aimpoint M2 on an Ultimak rail is a blast! I can pop the steel swingers at Angeles ranges from fifty to a hundred and not miss. Its just a pleasure to shoot.
7. It isn't "tactical". Even with the Aimpoint, it still looks "traditional" with its wood stock. I'd rather be in front of a jury (which is likely to happen in a HD shooting) with a traditional looking gun like the carbine than with my scary black AR with its big ol 30 round mags sticking out.

Ok, so my .02 for what its worth. ( .02c maybe? lol)

Whichever you get, practice! Take classes, go to the range, do some competition. Any gun is worthless if you aren't proficient, and any gun will do if you know what you're doing.

comblock
05-20-2011, 12:10 PM
No bullet button means the list is short to begin with.

Mini14/30
Su16
Saiga
Benelli mr1
M1 carbine

M1 carbine ammo is not as common as 5.56 or 7.62x39.

All are fun to shoot and are accurate enough to 100 yds. Su16 is good for bug out due to its light weight and foldability/concealability but might be less durable long term and some don't like the std irons. Has built-in rail for red dot or other optic.

Mini or saiga are pretty rugged and reliable and probably similar accuracy. Saiga has least options for optics. Mini ranch or newer models have rings but will likely need aftermarket mounts for some red dot / reflex / acog style optics.

Mr1 is newest on the market, least reliability history and probably most expensive.

Remington had a pump action carbine similar to an 870 and there are lever action carbines that might be a good option if you already have a wheel gun in .357.

Ruger also used to make a carbine in .44 magnum and the also had pistol caliber carbines in .40sw or 9mm. None are currently in production but do pop up on the used market from time to time.
Just some thoughts

keltec
sks

bigger rounds
m1a
saiga .308
fn49
garand

options abound

IPSICK
05-20-2011, 12:12 PM
saiga 12ga


I forgot about Saiga but why not in 12ga?

sanjosebmx
05-20-2011, 12:30 PM
how hard would it be to convert a CA legal BB installed AR to a featureless / extended (standard in the free states) magazine?

should SHTF

reason I ask is I'm looking at this Model M&P15 Sport™, Fixed Magazine & Bullet Button®
$709.00 *
*Suggested Retail, Dealer Sets Actual Pricing
Model: M&P15 Sport™
Caliber: 5.56 mm NATO
Capacity: 10-Round Fixed Magazine

http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson2/upload/images/firearms/detail_md/811038_01_md.jpg

IPSICK
05-20-2011, 12:38 PM
how hard would it be to convert a CA legal BB installed AR to a featureless / extended (standard in the free states) magazine?

should SHTF

reason I ask is I'm looking at this Model M&P15 Sport™, Fixed Magazine & Bullet Button®
$709.00 *
*Suggested Retail, Dealer Sets Actual Pricing
Model: M&P15 Sport™
Caliber: 5.56 mm NATO
Capacity: 10-Round Fixed Magazine

http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson2/upload/images/firearms/detail_md/811038_01_md.jpg

From the look of it you'll need a non-pistol grip replacement, something other than a suppressor at the muzzle, a non-telescoping fixed stock, and either a RADDlock or Bullet Button convertible to make switching between fixed and featureless convenient.

C_1
05-20-2011, 12:46 PM
Featureless AK, Saiga, or AR, should do the trick..

7.62 Charlie
05-20-2011, 1:03 PM
I forgot about Saiga but why not in 12ga?

Because the OP doesn't want a maglock.

RealBarber
05-20-2011, 1:05 PM
get a mossberg 500

mrvash
05-20-2011, 1:11 PM
I just noticed in the demo videos for the UBBT, the guy uses his right hand for mag changes for left and right hand shooting. I think if you're left handed the UBBT seems like a really good option because you keep your shooting hand on the pistol grip. Just seems awkward to use if you are right handed.

Additionally, he's pulling the mags from a table. I wonder what it would look like drawing from a belt-mounted mag pouch. It might work on a chest rig or similar.

Anyone brave enough to do a video demo that shows how this could work?

I say featureless is a better option if you want detachable mag functionality form an AR.

Good point, right handed shooters may need to use two hands to switch magazines.

Another question, are those tool's detachable from the magazines?

bohoki
05-20-2011, 1:19 PM
i got a 30 carbine ,mini 14 and mini thirty

they are all decent but i like the m1 carbine cause i dont have to send it back to the factory for a new firing pin

IPSICK
05-20-2011, 1:24 PM
Because the OP doesn't want a maglock.

Can't you just use some type of grip wrap to make it featureless? If not, then I think the semi-auto shotgun w/ speedloaders is best for the distance and purpose specified.

oaklander
05-20-2011, 1:41 PM
I still like the M1 Carbine. But when I was living in Deep East Oakland ("DEO"), I kept these PISTOLS for HD.

The AK has a 10/30 - and is volregged with the DOJ. Even in front of a jury, the fact that it is (1) LEGAL, and (2) registered in the DOJ "system," will have some sway. I was keeping 8 rounds of SP in it. It's supposed to be a 10 rounder, but they were conservative when they epoxied up the mag (which is better than it holding 11).

The Cobray has a larger mag, which makes me happy that I'm old enough to have stockpiled various standard capacity mags before the big "mag-ban." That Cobray is also CA legal, BTW - and is "registered" to me.

I'm very familiar with both of these firearms, since they are among my favorite guns to shoot. Whatever you get, please make sure that you are familiar with it!!! I'm pretty good with AK-style weapons, since I used to use them when I did tactical rifle competition.

ALSO - if you use something other than an M1 Carbine - PLEASE be aware that .223 and 7.62x39 will penetrate NUMEROUS WALLS. I lived alone in Oakland, and my house was small enough that I could be certain that I would actually hit any BG's who came in. But, geez, if you miss with either of those rounds - you are really taking chances with other INNOCENT people's lives, and that sort of thing is just wrong!!!!

ALSO ALSO - if you haven't done so - please take some tactical rifle classes, or just do some competition. Shooting under stress is SO different than shooting from the bench that it is almost not the same thing. The keyword here is SAFETY. It's SUPER easy to do "bad gun handling" under stress, and practicing in a "tactical" situation helps you learn how to be safe.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=98798&stc=1&d=1305927531

mls343
05-20-2011, 1:42 PM
M1 Carbine would get my vote.

tonelar
05-20-2011, 1:50 PM
Are your handguns 9mm?
(if they are)
Get a pistol caliber carbine / marlin camp 9 or a featureless AR (but thatd run into the $1000 iirc)

Knife Edge
05-20-2011, 1:56 PM
Re: breaking the law when SHTF (remove bb, etc): Durring the California Tsunami, panic set in here and people ran for the hills, roads became gridlocked, and fights broke out at gas stations - even some emergency responce personel were assaulted. That's a situation where you may find yourself playing defense, but not so horrible that it warrants breaking the law. Even in a Katrina type situation the law is going to have no sympathy for those who break it. I see that as more of a hinderance than an advantage.

Except that during Katrina the LEOs themselves fled and order wasn't actually enforced until days later.

I agree and in most cases building an AW would get you into a load of trouble. However, in a true SHTF scenario (US currency system fails, full government shutdown, etc) you have the Constitutional right to defend yourself. If it REALLY came to that type of scenario, an abandoned M4 laying in the street would equate to a new rifle (I wouldn't add a BB or remove the can if installed). If the decision came down to removing a BB to better "defend" your family and subsequently dealing with judgement by peers (if such order was ever restored) the answer is obvious. In the other case you might not be alive to stand trial when you hit that tenth round and realize you don't have a tool readily available, or someone else grabbed the M4 with NV.

Remember, at the end of the day your 2A was added by out forefathers to protect you and the future from tyranny.

Sorry, its a bit extreme but so is "running for the hills" and abandoning everything you love, everything some of us spent a career fighting for and the core of what our country represents, freedom.

CalTeacher
05-20-2011, 1:58 PM
no, you can't...my BB tool is on every magazine I own. so my hand will hit my tool about the same time your finger hits the button....

some peoples BB tool is on the end of their finger or glove....

stop trying to mock something you dont have to make yourself feel better about YOUR choice.

There is nothing wrong with featurless...whats wrong is people with featurless trying to mock BBs.... just stop the bashing.

/thread-jack

Actually, I had a BB and found it to be quite bothersome, and it wouldn't allow me to use my non-neutered mags...but my rifle sure did look cool.

What mocking are you speaking of? I was explaining why featureless is a more practical option. How can I mock an inanimate object? A wee bit touchy, eh?

Would you be concerned that in the event you have to change mags quickly, that you could lose a bit of dexterity and have trouble..um...putting your tool in the hole? I'm sure many here have played the game where you run to your front door and try to unlock it with your key before the bad guys get you. It can be rather difficult in times of stress. That's just one more thing I'd rather not have to contend with while someone may be shooting at me.

Knife Edge
05-20-2011, 1:59 PM
another thing before I hit the gym.

The AR15 one of the only firearms where you can be an expert in its repair in a few hours spent surfing the Internet. A few weeks of watching 1.5 BILLION videos on-line, 1.5 BILLION retailers suppling parts... the saturation of the AR15 into the firearms community is the strongest point the rifle has. For all its flaws [if you can fine one]... there is an AR15, or parts to repair one, within walking distance of any US household.

buy 1 or 2 lowers, and you and the wife build it yourselves. Its easy really and you are a member here...one of us can help even over the phone if need be. After putting one together you know all the parts, and if anything goes wrong you know or at least have an idea of how to fix it.

all a person needs in this world is a Glock, an AR15 and a multi-tool...thats it.

I couldn't agree more.

Knife Edge
05-20-2011, 2:05 PM
Situation: My wife and I are in the process of replacing our main home defense gun, a Beretta 92 series pistol as it never fit either of us very well. Preliminary pawing of guns at the local sporting goods and gun stores put various wheel guns and M&P's are on the top of the handgun list right now. However, we are also considering a carbine as we already have another home defense pistol and have always wanted a semi-auto centerfire rifle. We live in an 850sq/ft house in a neighborhood where the average lot size is about 5000 sq/ft. The longest possible unobscured shot within our property would be about 50-75 yards. This will also serve as our "bugout gun".

Requirements:
No bullet buttons
Removable magazine
Carbine length
Reliable
Not only practical for HD, but fun to shoot at the range or in the woods as well (all of our guns double as fun guys)
MOA accuracy isn't required, but it should be accurate enough to enjoy at the 50 yard line
No exotic calibers
$1000 MAX budget, prefer $900 or less

There you have it. Discuss! I've already got a short list worked up in my head, but I'll keep that to myself in favor of a more open discussion. Interested to hear what people have to say. :)

.40 Glock with a rail light. It's really all you need for HD.

7.62 Charlie
05-20-2011, 2:09 PM
Can't you just use some type of grip wrap to make it featureless? If not, then I think the semi-auto shotgun w/ speedloaders is best for the distance and purpose specified.

No. Semi auto shotguns cant have detachable magazines

motorwerks
05-20-2011, 2:19 PM
No. Semi auto shotguns cant have detachable magazines
Pretty sure he wasnt talking about a detachable magazine.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=166659

oaklander
05-20-2011, 2:21 PM
If you go "AR" - then get something short (mine is 30.5 inches), and get a flashlight and some sort of red dot. With a grip wrap - you can use any magazines that you legally possess. . . ALSO - muzzle devices have gotten a LOT cooler recently. This one is a brake - but has nice crenelation at the tip - which means that it can be used to push people away from you, should that need to happen. . .

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=98804&stc=1&d=1305930001

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=98805&stc=1&d=1305930079

7.62 Charlie
05-20-2011, 2:21 PM
Pretty sure he wasnt talking about a detachable magazine.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=166659

He was asking if a saiga 12 could be featureless with detachable magazines and a grip wrap.

motogunner356
05-20-2011, 2:27 PM
saiga 12 wouldnt need a grip wrap with the stock monte carlo stock but i believe its correct in that with or without a pistol grip a shotgun cant have a detach mag. if thats the case get a semi auto hunting shotgun and cut the barrel and stock short within the limits of the law

oaklander
05-20-2011, 2:31 PM
ALSO - some people have *this* thinking process (it's wrong):

1) They think that since an HD weapon would likely be used for EOTWAWKI, then they should just keep an "evil" (illegal) rifle somewhere hidden.

2) They reason that LE is not going to care about the rifle (or pistol).

DO NOT FRICKEN DO THIS!!!!! LE has now gotten extremely good at determining whether something is "configured" right or not. Many of them use the "AW Flow Chart" right off this site.

PLEASE do not even "mess around" with this kind of stuff. Either do a BB build, and ONLY use 10 round mags, or do a featureless. But do them right - do not take chances. Also - it's NEVER OK to make a rifle into an AW. This applies when you are building it, repairing it, taking it to public land to shoot, etc. . .

The ONLY time that you can "make" an AW, under CA law - is when you leave the state, or IF you have the proper permits (or own a registered AW). Don't even play around with this kind of stuff - PLEASE stay 100 percent legal 100 percent of the time.

I do this, and that's why I have no problems showing people what legally configured weapons I own.

7.62 Charlie
05-20-2011, 2:35 PM
saiga 12 wouldnt need a grip wrap with the stock monte carlo stock but i believe its correct in that with or without a pistol grip a shotgun cant have a detach mag. if thats the case get a semi auto hunting shotgun and cut the barrel and stock short within the limits of the law

Shotguns have different laws than rifles.
A semi auto shotgun with detachable magazines is considered an assault
weapon in California.

Check the shotgun Flowchart http://www.calguns.net/caawid/sgflowchart.pdf

EDIT: Sorry read your post wrong.

Salty
05-20-2011, 3:01 PM
Are your handguns 9mm?
(if they are)
Get a pistol caliber carbine / marlin camp 9 or a featureless AR (but thatd run into the $1000 iirc)

I had one 9mm handgun, the Beretta, but I do still have a lot of 9mm ammo so that's a thought. One benefit of a pistol caliber carbine is that I could practice at indoor ranges (as with the M1 Carbine in some cases), so there's a chance it would get more trigger time.

This morning I started to think about semi-auto shotguns as well. As Motorworks pointed out, we do have a Mossberg 500 but I'm not completely confident with it in an HD scenario and my wife most definitely isn't. The stock is about an inch too long for me and two inches too long for her, the kick is horrendous with the 18" barrel and buckshot, follow ups are slow, etc. It's also 25 years old and needs some work before it can cycle buck reliably (FT extract after about 3-5 shots of buck once it heats up), but that's another story. I do plan to take it into a smith and have the stock cut down and the bugs worked out, but I still plan to buy another gun anyway - even if we're able to better handle the recoil and cycle rounds faster with a properly fitting stock. :D

The one downside to a shotgun though is that AFAIK Reeds is the only place within an hour drive of us that allows buckshot and 18" barrels, we do enjoy shooting clays though so something with a quick change barrel (getting off topic, but any suggestions here?) like the 500 has would be an asset. She's also been wanting a semi auto - possibly 20 gauge for clays, and I wouldn't mind having having a lighter round in the quiver for hunting.

IPSICK
05-20-2011, 3:33 PM
Shotguns have different laws than rifles.
A semi auto shotgun with detachable magazines is considered an assault
weapon in California.

Check the shotgun Flowchart http://www.calguns.net/caawid/sgflowchart.pdf

EDIT: Sorry read your post wrong.

I forgot shotguns couldn't have detachable mags. A tricky difference between shotgun and rifle.

dfletcher
05-20-2011, 3:53 PM
CA legal -- M-16 magazines -- reliable --
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p54/Fasanoland/IMG_6415.jpg

Meet Mister One -- Benelli MR-1



Accessorize with Beta Mag ......:)

motogunner356
05-20-2011, 3:53 PM
another suggestion is the hi point carbines http://www.hi-pointfirearms.com/

robcoe
05-20-2011, 4:28 PM
Situation: My wife and I are in the process of replacing our main home defense gun, a Beretta 92 series pistol as it never fit either of us very well. Preliminary pawing of guns at the local sporting goods and gun stores put various wheel guns and M&P's are on the top of the handgun list right now. However, we are also considering a carbine as we already have another home defense pistol and have always wanted a semi-auto centerfire rifle. We live in an 850sq/ft house in a neighborhood where the average lot size is about 5000 sq/ft. The longest possible unobscured shot within our property would be about 50-75 yards. This will also serve as our "bugout gun".

Requirements:
No bullet buttons
Removable magazine
Carbine length
Reliable
Not only practical for HD, but fun to shoot at the range or in the woods as well (all of our guns double as fun guys)
MOA accuracy isn't required, but it should be accurate enough to enjoy at the 50 yard line
No exotic calibers
$1000 MAX budget, prefer $900 or less

There you have it. Discuss! I've already got a short list worked up in my head, but I'll keep that to myself in favor of a more open discussion. Interested to hear what people have to say. :)

Mini-14

dieselpower
05-20-2011, 4:59 PM
Actually, I had a BB and found it to be quite bothersome, and it wouldn't allow me to use my non-neutered mags...but my rifle sure did look cool.

What mocking are you speaking of? I was explaining why featureless is a more practical option. How can I mock an inanimate object? A wee bit touchy, eh?

Would you be concerned that in the event you have to change mags quickly, that you could lose a bit of dexterity and have trouble..um...putting your tool in the hole? I'm sure many here have played the game where you run to your front door and try to unlock it with your key before the bad guys get you. It can be rather difficult in times of stress. That's just one more thing I'd rather not have to contend with while someone may be shooting at me.

LOL...plz don't get all righteous on me after your first post of...

So, what if you drop your BB tool? What if you need to clear a malfunction? What if you fall and you destroy your magazine in the process? Would you want a mag lock on your pistol you keep for home defense? My guess would be that you wouldn't.

I can change magazines faster than you can locate your BB tool.
This was a direct question to me... so I wasn't being "touchy"...I was responding to a childish comment.

And if you ever need to actually use your rifle for defensive purposes, you can go ahead and hope you only need 10 rounds. I prefer to have way more than that if I need them. This is the same reason why I carry spare mags for my pistols when I carry them. If I ever need to draw my weapon, I better be ready to also have to change mags if need be.

Additionally, you have no way of prediciting what you will face in real life. This has nothing to do with zombies, aliens, etc.



Your first post is clearly pointing to YOUR PERCEIVED flaws of the BB, in order to promote your opine of the featureless build.

That doesn't work with me...there is a quote feature....

I am defending the BB by pointing at the flaws in that type of logic. I bolded both statements you need to concider....

drclark
05-20-2011, 5:05 PM
Well, if you are talking to the cops that much after you've just shot someone, you're probably not the sharpest marble anyways. You tell the cops to arrest/carry out the man you just shot because you were in fear for your life, then stfu until you have a lawyer. Your gun will probably taken as evidence anyways, as you said. If you're gun is legal, then there is nothing to worry about.

You are right about not talking... I was being figurative in my expression. Still, you never know if the responding officers will be educated wrt OLLs. If they believe you gun is an illegal aw it might bias their initial investigation and cause you unneeded legal troubles down the road. Also, during the ensuing civil suit the plaintiffs attorney will do everything possible to get the jury to believe you were a redneck aw toting gun nut salivating at the chance to shoot someone (including supenoing all your calguns posts)

What kinda funky grip are you speaking of that would prohibit you from using it in a self defense situation? Myself and many others compete with featureless rifles where you have to shoot from all kinds of positions, and it has never been a hinderance.

I've got a monsterman grip on the ak. I cannot handle it one handed effectively (maybe my hands are too small?). Do your competitions ever involve opening closed doors, dialing 911 on your cell, or carrying your toddler to safety while maintaining a hold on your rifle with your firing hand? My experience is that most featureless builds compromise the rifle's controls and ergonomics to a degree that make manipulation under stress difficult.

I'm not trying to knock anyone else's personal choices. Just voicing my opinions and reasoning behind my choices. For me, a neutered CA legal non aw is not the best choice for home defense or a temporary shtf or bugout situation. If society completely broke down to the point where aw laws would be moot then converting my CA legal ARs would be considered.

Sicarius
05-20-2011, 5:12 PM
Here is my take for whatever it is worth...
The longarms that fit your requrements and budget:
Mini 14/30
Great rifle and will serve you and probalby your children well. Durable, accurate enough for your needs and plenty reliable. Preban mags are a definate plus... Drawback from this rifle is that they are extremely reliable WITH only Ruger mags from what I have found. They aren't as cheap and plentiful as other makes. The older ones don't accept optics that well... at least mine didn't with any number of aftermarket mounts.
SU16
Wonderful rifle for what it is. Not something I would expect to last forever because it is kinda flimsy. The cost does come with many bennifits. It freaking folds and it is extremely light. It has an integrated rail for optics. You bring up the option of a bugout rifle, you may want something that can be hidden away in a backpack or small sack... this can be that rifle. You mention that you and your wife... I only bring this up because a lot of my female friends favor this rifle because it is so light and easy to shoot. The rifle takes ar mags which are cheap and easy to come by. Reliability has been great for me. It has eaten every type of ammo I can feed it without any issues.
M1 Carbine
Good reliable rifle. Ammo is too expensive and nitche for my taste. It will serve your purpose but I think there are better higher power rifles for the same if not cheaper price. Consider ammo availability too. Stick with 223/556, 308 and 752x39. You speak of bugging out... finding ammo can be an issue...
Saiga
It is basically and AK, how can you go wrong. Durable, reliable and plenty accurate for what you want to do. Out of the box is cheaper than the other options. Mod it to take AK mags(along with the other 922r parts to stay legal) and you are pretty much set. I am not sure how much work you want to put into it but it has great potential after the mod.
Kevin

CalTeacher
05-20-2011, 8:49 PM
LOL...plz don't get all righteous on me after your first post of...




Your first post is clearly pointing to YOUR PERCEIVED flaws of the BB, in order to promote your opine of the featureless build.

That doesn't work with me...there is a quote feature....

I am defending the BB by pointing at the flaws in that type of logic. I bolded both statements you need to concider....

Wait, you think my statement that I can change mags faster than you can locate your BB tool was childish? This is coming from the person who responds with LOL and plz? It was actually a declaratory statement, not a childish statement, or a question (did you see a question mark?)

About the statements of mine you bolded: My rifle did look cool. How can I mock an inanimate object? No, really, how can I? How is explaining the shortcomings of a BB rifle mocking something that I don't have? (I actually do have one...that is no longer in use).

You've not pointed out any flaws of logic. You've called me righteous and childish whilst managing to evade the questions I asked you directly. Please refer to post #50 and respond to my questions regarding the functional shortcomings of a BB.

By the way, it's consider*

plumbum
05-20-2011, 8:51 PM
M-1 Carbine, loaded with .30 carbine factory hollow points

Mini-14 loaded with .223 factory hollow points, varmint or frangible rounds

Marlin Camp Carbine (used), loaded with premium 9mm defensive ammo

All of the above look 'friendly', if you are so inclined I would also suggest the lever actions in .357/.38 or .45 Colt, again with premium defense ammo

I would not recommend the 7.62x39 for home defense, and FMJ rounds should not be used in defense situations involving other households in close proximity

If you are comfortable with an AR, go for it! I am leaning to the 'featureless' side and hopefully I can inspect an Exile Hammerhead version this weekend

Fishandshoot
05-20-2011, 8:54 PM
Make sure you choose a home defense carbine that you don't mind sitting in an evidence locker for months IF you do ever have to use it in a defensive scenario ;)

dieselpower
05-20-2011, 9:47 PM
So, what if you drop your BB tool? I will drop my tool... they are on EVERY magazine..so when I drop my magazine I have dropped my tool. there is always ONE MORE magazine so I always have a tool...its a moot point and a failure to understand what a UBBT is on your part...its painfully simple to understand. What if you need to clear a malfunction? I do the same as you. Immediate, then remedial if needed. I have a BAD if needed. A mag release is only 1 of many things needed to clear malfunctions. What if you fall and you destroy your magazine in the process? get real. I will do the same as you...how stupid of a question is this? Would you want a mag lock on your pistol you keep for home defense? Why not? I have a 5 shot 357..oh wait Do I need a belt fed machine gun? My guess would be that you wouldn't. And you are wrong...very wrong. I watched my father shoot two armed men when I was a young boy. A 6 shot .38 special. You need to rethink this whole Matrix mindset you have about home defense.
I can change magazines faster than you can locate your BB tool.

And if you ever need to actually use your rifle for defensive purposes, you can go ahead and hope you only need 10 rounds. Why am I limited to ten rounds again...wait...are you limited to 30..and now 10 guys are coming at you with 100 round magazine...YOU LOSE because you only have 30. Oh wait...do you actually understand a BB just means a tool is needed...you do understand I can reload with a fresh magazine just as fast as you right...we no longer have to top feed... I prefer to have way more than that if I need them. This is the same reason why I carry spare mags for my pistols when I carry them. If I ever need to draw my weapon, I better be ready to also have to change mags if need be. LOL... "5 rounds...that isn't enough on todays battlefield, I was looking at a Shrike Belt fed mod..." Yes we all know you and there is a funny cartoon about you.

Additionally, you have no way of predicting what you will face in real life. This has nothing to do with zombies, aliens, etc.


Your logic is flawed. Your last sentence describes your failure and you don't even realize it....why 30...why not 40...why not 50...why not 100? The bad guy is about to kill you and you need a 31 round magazine...you lose. You think 30 = win, becuase 10 = not enough...who says 30 = win? No one. 40rd mag then...no wait 50 round mag...no you need 100 round drums...wait wheres my shrike belt feeding upper... ALL ABOARD THE FAIL BOAT

I have gone tit-for-tat against featureless before as a joke, but many people don't view it that way. They get mad and project that anger, then think others are mad...its fun for a bit, then its always gets ugly. So I am not going that route. I do not have to resort to making up false flaws in your choice to justify mine. I know my choice is made with adult reality and adult logic as a checksum.... there will be no situation as the one you fear. Its not happening the way YOU THINK IT WILL.

motorwerks
05-20-2011, 10:11 PM
Hey Some how we have managed to dance around a store localish to you. I'm not sure how far Pacifica is from you but City arms their is pretty cool.

CalTeacher
05-21-2011, 9:18 AM
Your logic is flawed. Your last sentence describes your failure and you don't even realize it....why 30...why not 40...why not 50...why not 100? The bad guy is about to kill you and you need a 31 round magazine...you lose. You think 30 = win, becuase 10 = not enough...who says 30 = win? No one. 40rd mag then...no wait 50 round mag...no you need 100 round drums...wait wheres my shrike belt feeding upper... ALL ABOARD THE FAIL BOAT

I have gone tit-for-tat against featureless before as a joke, but many people don't view it that way. They get mad and project that anger, then think others are mad...its fun for a bit, then its always gets ugly. So I am not going that route. I do not have to resort to making up false flaws in your choice to justify mine. I know my choice is made with adult reality and adult logic as a checksum.... there will be no situation as the one you fear. Its not happening the way YOU THINK IT WILL.

You know, I never said 30=win, nor 40, nor 50, nor 100. Those were your words. I said you shouldn't bet on the fact that you'll only need 10 rounds. Furthermore the more ammunition you can have inserted into your weapon decreases the odds that you'll need to change mags because you run dry. That's a simple matter of mathematics. Is it likely? Probably not...but as I said, you have no way of predicting what you'll ever run into in your life. If you never have to use them, more the better. But if you do, you'll be thankful that you don't have your mag capacity limited in such a way, and that you don't have to rely on a tool to release your mags. And I don't care how fast you think you are with your tool, I will change mags faster, and less frequently. I have one less obstacle to contend with. Feel free to test this situation as much as you like. So you grab your magazine, presumably with your trigger hand, grab a mag, insert the tool into the hole, drop mag, then insert mag, than place your grip hand back on the rifle to shoot, right? Tell me how that's faster than using your trigger finger to push the magazine release, grabbing a fresh mag with your weak hand, inserting the mag, and conmmence firing, all while never changing hands or taking my hand off the grip? Granted, you may be an expert at this and it may only take you a few seconds longer to change mags, but it's still slower and more frequent.

Additionally, my last sentence doesn't describe any failure of any kind. You have no way of predicting what you will face in the future. Please elaborate on the logical flaws of that statement beyond your usual "your logic is flawed lolz." Tell me how the ability to change mags with your finger and being able to carry more ammunition in your rifle at any given time contradicts that statement.

" I know my choice is made with adult reality and adult logic as a checksum.... there will be no situation as the one you fear. Its not happening the way YOU THINK IT WILL." I never outlined any one situation that I "fear," nor any situation that will go down the way I think it will. In fact I said the contrary many times, in that you don't know if/when a situation may occur, and what the situation may entail.

Why is it funny that I carry spare magazines with my ccw guns? Do you know something that the rest of us that carry don't? Can you explain why carrying two magazines in for your pistol is ridiculous rather than going off on some battlefield, belt fed tangent? You must not carry.

"And you are wrong...very wrong. I watched my father shoot two armed men when I was a young boy. A 6 shot .38 special. You need to rethink this whole Matrix mindset you have about home defense." Cool, good for you. Glad your father was able to do that. I prefer to have more ammunition of a more powerful cartridge. But that has nothing to do with having a maglock on your pistol. So are you saying that there is no need for x amount of ammunition? Are you saying that there is no need for standard cap magazines? Please explain how the absence of a maglock on a pistol is a "Matrix mindset I have about home defense." I'd really like to hear that explanation. This is the argument of a prosecuting attorney who is trying to paint a picture of a psychotic home owner who used an automatic pistol with standard cap magazines to defend his/her home. Your statements exemplify the attitude of legislators who think mag capacity limitations make sense. "you don't need 15 rounds in your guns, you can only have 10 because an extra five rounds is simply ridiculous." It's amazing how gun owners/enthusiasts can be so completely devoid of any sense at all.

"Why not? I have a 5 shot 357..oh wait Do I need a belt fed machine gun?" When did I say anything about needing a belt fed machine gun? How does having a 5 shot .357 have anything to do with a maglock? Your talking about capacity when I asked a question about maglocks. Please try actually addressing my question.


So basically, there's absolutely no need for anyone to have any more than 10 rounds in their rifle at any given time, or 5-6 rounds in their pistols at any given time because they won't need them. Additionally, using a tool to release your mag is just as fast as just using your finger. That would sum up your argument quite well.

And did you seriously just say fail boat? How old are you?

Cato
05-21-2011, 10:20 AM
I suggest a good M1 Carbine. Shooting a .223 or 5.56 would endanger your neighbors. Come to think of it, even an M1 Carbine would be "pushing it."

dieselpower
05-21-2011, 10:35 AM
You know, I never said 30=win, nor 40, nor 50, nor 100. Those were your words. I said you shouldn't bet on the fact that you'll only need 10 rounds. Furthermore the more ammunition you can have inserted into your weapon decreases the odds that you'll need to change mags because you run dry. That's a simple matter of mathematics. Is it likely? Probably not...but as I said, you have no way of predicting what you'll ever run into in your life. If you never have to use them, more the better. But if you do, you'll be thankful that you don't have your mag capacity limited in such a way, and that you don't have to rely on a tool to release your mags. And I don't care how fast you think you are with your tool, I will change mags faster, and less frequently. I have one less obstacle to contend with. Feel free to test this situation as much as you like. So you grab your magazine, presumably with your trigger hand, grab a mag, insert the tool into the hole, drop mag, then insert mag, than place your grip hand back on the rifle to shoot, right? Tell me how that's faster than using your trigger finger to push the magazine release, grabbing a fresh mag with your weak hand, inserting the mag, and conmmence firing, all while never changing hands or taking my hand off the grip? Granted, you may be an expert at this and it may only take you a few seconds longer to change mags, but it's still slower and more frequent.

Additionally, my last sentence doesn't describe any failure of any kind. You have no way of predicting what you will face in the future. Please elaborate on the logical flaws of that statement beyond your usual "your logic is flawed lolz." Tell me how the ability to change mags with your finger and being able to carry more ammunition in your rifle at any given time contradicts that statement.

" I know my choice is made with adult reality and adult logic as a checksum.... there will be no situation as the one you fear. Its not happening the way YOU THINK IT WILL." I never outlined any one situation that I "fear," nor any situation that will go down the way I think it will. In fact I said the contrary many times, in that you don't know if/when a situation may occur, and what the situation may entail.

Why is it funny that I carry spare magazines with my ccw guns? Do you know something that the rest of us that carry don't? Can you explain why carrying two magazines in for your pistol is ridiculous rather than going off on some battlefield, belt fed tangent? You must not carry.

"And you are wrong...very wrong. I watched my father shoot two armed men when I was a young boy. A 6 shot .38 special. You need to rethink this whole Matrix mindset you have about home defense." Cool, good for you. Glad your father was able to do that. I prefer to have more ammunition of a more powerful cartridge. But that has nothing to do with having a maglock on your pistol. So are you saying that there is no need for x amount of ammunition? Are you saying that there is no need for standard cap magazines? Please explain how the absence of a maglock on a pistol is a "Matrix mindset I have about home defense." I'd really like to hear that explanation. This is the argument of a prosecuting attorney who is trying to paint a picture of a psychotic home owner who used an automatic pistol with standard cap magazines to defend his/her home. Your statements exemplify the attitude of legislators who think mag capacity limitations make sense. "you don't need 15 rounds in your guns, you can only have 10 because an extra five rounds is simply ridiculous." It's amazing how gun owners/enthusiasts can be so completely devoid of any sense at all.

"Why not? I have a 5 shot 357..oh wait Do I need a belt fed machine gun?" When did I say anything about needing a belt fed machine gun? How does having a 5 shot .357 have anything to do with a maglock? Your talking about capacity when I asked a question about maglocks. Please try actually addressing my question.


So basically, there's absolutely no need for anyone to have any more than 10 rounds in their rifle at any given time, or 5-6 rounds in their pistols at any given time because they won't need them. Additionally, using a tool to release your mag is just as fast as just using your finger. That would sum up your argument quite well.

And did you seriously just say fail boat? How old are you?


LOL...new guys.. ya kill me. calteacher...nice handle. fits you perfectly

oh and its "commence". bahahaha

CalTeacher
05-21-2011, 12:27 PM
LOL...new guys.. ya kill me. calteacher...nice handle. fits you perfectly

oh and its "commence". bahahaha

Once again you won't answer my questions, which tells me you're not equipped to do so. Your retreat to ad hominem territory means you've ungracefully bowed out of this conversation and lack the ability to converse about this in a mature fashion.

Answer this one question with a simple "yes" or "no" answer: If CA changed it's AW laws and hi cap laws, would you leave your AR with a BB and use only 10 rd mags?

ren
05-21-2011, 12:45 PM
people are getting feelings hurt over this. look OP aske a question and had requirements. why try to steer him away from
what he wants? it's like when people ask about aks then some ar fanboy has to chime in about how inaccurate they are.

CalTeacher
05-21-2011, 12:49 PM
Well, it's difficult to have a conversation about this at all when a person tries to point out the functional shortcomings of a defensive firearm with a mag lock without someone responding with "LOL, plz, and take a ride on the fail boat," and then proceeds to dismiss your argument on the basis of having a smaller post count.

dieselpower
05-21-2011, 12:58 PM
Once again you won't answer my questions, which tells me you're not equipped to do so. Your retreat to ad hominem territory means you've ungracefully bowed out of this conversation and lack the ability to converse about this in a mature fashion.

Answer this one question with a simple "yes" or "no" answer: If CA changed it's AW laws and hi cap laws, would you leave your AR with a BB and use only 10 rd mags?

I'm not going to debate with a person who has shown can't follow simple logic and who has shown himself to play games and twist his own words after being shown his words were flawed. You are just uneducated in this subject..and it shows.

I own high caps, I own RAWs. Once again you are FLAWED..would you leave the firearm featureless? No. Why ...because 1930 was 80 years ago. there is a reason we have pistol grips, collapsing stocks, flash hiders and forward grips. Why the F would I leave a BB in if I didn't have to? That logic shows you are a completely delusional in your logic. You are just some guy who needs to pretend he owns something superior to make himself feel better about himself. Instead of being proud of your choices, you must make up lies, situations and pretend there are flaws in other choices. I have shown your logic is flawed. I am not going to stoup to your level and talk crap about featureless rifles..even though I could write a Thesis paper on why features aid in combat over magazine capacity. and none of us are going to see combat as your delusions suggest to you.

We are done here. Congrats...you made a very small list of people. send me a PM and find out what that means. Thats too bad for you. I like to think I am a person who bends over backwards to help....and several here will attest that I have done that for them.

ren
05-21-2011, 1:09 PM
MOMMY DADDY PLEASE STOP FIGHTING.

CalTeacher
05-21-2011, 1:13 PM
I'm not going to debate with a person who has shown can't follow simple logic and who has shown himself to play games and twist his own words after being shown his words were flawed. You are just uneducated in this subject..and it shows.

I own high caps, I own RAWs. Once again you are FLAWED..would you leave the firearm featureless? No. Why ...because 1930 was 80 years ago. there is a reason we have pistol grips, collapsing stocks, flash hiders and forward grips. Why the F would I leave a BB in if I didn't have to? That logic shows you are a completely delusional in your logic. You are just some guy who needs to pretend he owns something superior to make himself feel better about himself. Instead of being proud of your choices, you must make up lies, situations and pretend there are flaws in other choices. I have shown your logic is flawed. I am not going to stoup to your level and talk crap about featureless rifles..even though I could write a Thesis paper on why features aid in combat over magazine capacity. and none of us are going to see combat as your delusions suggest to you.

We are done here. Congrats...you made a very small list of people. send me a PM and find out what that means. Thats too bad for you. I like to think I am a person who bends over backwards to help....and several here will attest that I have done that for them.


The point of that question is to ask whether or not you would ditch the BB and have a functional AR with standard mags. You just made my point, in that a rifle without a BB is a more functional defensive firearm than one with a BB. Thanks. Looks like we agreed on this all along.

Would I keep my featureless? Nope, I'd remove the kydex grip wrap...and that's it. But I already have an AR that functions as it was designed to function without doing so. That is the point. That is the point you fail to acknowledge. You like to add arguments that I never made about combat, being delusional, etc., and then try to attack them as being ridiculous. You can't keep on throwing out a straw man and expect to actually make sense.

And no crap talking going on here about BB equipped rifles. They serve their purpose, just not as well in a defensive role as a featureless can. Please quote where I was "talking crap" about BB equipped rifles.

And, uh, if you think I give to squirts about being on an anonymous internet personality's small list, then you must be a bit delusional. Or perhaps you have an ego problem whereas you actually think I care if I gain your personal approval. Get over yourself cowboy.

dieselpower
05-21-2011, 1:24 PM
MOMMY DADDY PLEASE STOP FIGHTING.
well considering I no longer see anything he asks or says... yeah its over. cry a river for us...LOL

I'll seek a relationship counselor next time...:D


his loss

Sanderhawk
05-21-2011, 2:58 PM
Hey,
Get a cheap Mossberg 12 gauge and fill with your choice of rounds. Nothing says get out of my house like a chest full of 12 gauge. When the cops show, point them to the carcass, show them the Mossberg, and say "I want my lawyer". Who cares if the Mossie comes back from the PD, plenty more where that one came from. Spend you money on a fun range gun and don't compromise.
Eric

Agree with you 100%

SuperSet
05-21-2011, 3:30 PM
Entertaining thread. Featureless vs. BB.. only in CA. :)

Foriegn power
05-21-2011, 3:43 PM
I would honestly not get a B.B rifle it's like buying a handicap weapon from the get- go. Ten rounds I can deal with but being stuck with not being able to quickly release my mags is a pain in the bucket. To illustrate, I need to quickly deploy my rifle there is a malfunction- stoppage- jam, heck I need to rip my magazine out, I'm screwed! I would rather have a M1A Socom rifle, Mini 14, etc.

IrishPirate
05-21-2011, 3:53 PM
+1 on the M1 carbine or the KelTec SU16CA.

X-NewYawker
05-21-2011, 10:00 PM
I would honestly not get a B.B rifle it's like buying a handicap weapon from the get- go. Ten rounds I can deal with but being stuck with not being able to quickly release my mags is a pain in the bucket. To illustrate, I need to quickly deploy my rifle there is a malfunction- stoppage- jam, heck I need to rip my magazine out, I'm screwed! I would rather have a M1A Socom rifle, Mini 14, etc.

+ 1000. I have BB guns, but in SHTF, I want a functional mag release (and don't say it's easy to switch it out -- I don't even know where the original parts are -- and that would be making an AW.

rjh4758
05-22-2011, 5:39 AM
Featureless AR in 9MM

TiMe_1
05-22-2011, 6:42 AM
Never understood the need for a rifle for HD. I feel safe at night with my mossberg 500 loaded up with buckshot and my G23 as backup for the wife.

You guys watch to many movies! LOL

Lead Waster
05-22-2011, 8:29 AM
Seriously, for a 850 sq ft house, a baseball bat. By the time you grab your rifle, the bad guys are already on top of you. My house is 1100 sqft and it's TINY. Just make sure you aren't killing neighbours with whatever you choose. Rifle rounds can probably punch through your walls pretty easily. Maybe stick to pistols/shotguns for home defense.

bluebird
05-22-2011, 2:44 PM
Just curious, are there any "friendly" rifles that accepts PMAGs but not AR/ACR platforms?

dieselpower
05-22-2011, 3:23 PM
Just curious, are there any "friendly" rifles that accepts PMAGs but not AR/ACR platforms?


yes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STANAG_magazine)

r6raff
05-22-2011, 3:26 PM
Seriously, for a 850 sq ft house, a baseball bat. By the time you grab your rifle, the bad guys are already on top of you. My house is 1100 sqft and it's TINY. Just make sure you aren't killing neighbours with whatever you choose. Rifle rounds can probably punch through your walls pretty easily. Maybe stick to pistols/shotguns for home defense.

With the correct ammunition 556 is one of the more safe in regards to over penetration. This has been discussed numerous times.

Personally, the last thing I would go for would be a shotgun. I have kids and the chance for over penetration and to large of a hit pattern is enough for me to go for my side arm or my AR. I wouldn't hesitate to go for my BBed AR, I am very proficient with it and with my stock to its minimum length it will be great to navigate the hallways of my house, I can reload with it pretty quick using the UBBT and have spent countless hours building muscle memory clearing malfunctions and speed reloading. Now, That being said, I will undoubtedly go for my 9mm with 147g HP. It is the easiest to get to and i can throw 5+ loaded mags into my pockets and be ready to rock.

On the featureless vs BB, either way you are neutering something. Personally if I wanted a weapon without a pistolgrip, vfg, collapsible stock etc... I wouldn't get an AR, I would get an M1A or any other of the many weapons that were built around a traditional stock. I like the AR weapon system primarily for the pistol grip and the versatility to augment it in many ways depending your desired usage. Going featureless in my opinion completely negates the nature of the AR platform. Not that a 10rnd max mag or a maglock doesnt restrict it as well, but of one of two choices I see the BB being more favorable and beneficial to me vs. featureless. One day, hopefully, this issue won't be discussed and our kids will laugh at the idea of a mag lock and featureless. but until then, all we can do is work with what we have and train accordingly.

bluebird
05-22-2011, 3:46 PM
yes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STANAG_magazine)

Sir, FWIW there are multiple firearms in the website you gave me that are NOT COMPATIBLE with PMAGs, including, but not limited to:

-FN FS2000
-HK MR556A1
-FN SCAR 16S

I believe PMAGs are NOT STANAGs. That's why I am looking for an answer. Thanks for the reply though:)

Knife Edge
05-22-2011, 4:03 PM
ALSO - some people have *this* thinking process (it's wrong):

1) They think that since an HD weapon would likely be used for EOTWAWKI, then they should just keep an "evil" (illegal) rifle somewhere hidden.

2) They reason that LE is not going to care about the rifle (or pistol).

DO NOT FRICKEN DO THIS!!!!! LE has now gotten extremely good at determining whether something is "configured" right or not. Many of them use the "AW Flow Chart" right off this site.

PLEASE do not even "mess around" with this kind of stuff. Either do a BB build, and ONLY use 10 round mags, or do a featureless. But do them right - do not take chances. Also - it's NEVER OK to make a rifle into an AW. This applies when you are building it, repairing it, taking it to public land to shoot, etc. . .

The ONLY time that you can "make" an AW, under CA law - is when you leave the state, or IF you have the proper permits (or own a registered AW). Don't even play around with this kind of stuff - PLEASE stay 100 percent legal 100 percent of the time.

I do this, and that's why I have no problems showing people what legally configured weapons I own.

I think everyone agrees.

f250sd
05-22-2011, 5:40 PM
Benelli MR-1 - First pick

If you can't afford or find one, get a Mini-14, also look for the 16" model if you want one a little more compact.

Load em' with a ballistic tip round and it will have less "neighbor wall" penitration than a handgun.

dieselpower
05-22-2011, 5:55 PM
Sir, FWIW there are multiple firearms in the website you gave me that are NOT COMPATIBLE with PMAGs, including, but not limited to:

-FN FS2000
-HK MR556A1
-FN SCAR 16S

I believe PMAGs are NOT STANAGs. That's why I am looking for an answer. Thanks for the reply though:)

I didn't say they all did. Maybe next time you should use a search engine instead.

I gave you a list of rifles that use the 5.56x45 magazine. You were not capable to find this information yourself, so maybe now you have a place to start.

FYI, that list has several rifles you can not legally own either. It (the list) still has your required information.

axhoaxho
05-22-2011, 7:59 PM
For the money, the Saiga is a good bang for the buck. I have a 7.62 and a .223, both are around $400 each (I know, I could have paid less...)

Regards,

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd162/axhoaxho/s762a.jpg

Beauhooligan
05-22-2011, 10:45 PM
Saiga 7.62x39, made in the Izmash factory - the original Russian AK.

Consider a .357, .44 or .45 lever gun. No mag, but 10 in the tube and bolt gun accuracy with fast handling in a short length package.

Mini 30 or 14.

Remington 760 pump rifle.

I prefer a handgun for HD in .45acp.

You and I think very much alike, as I was going to mention the Marlin lever action rifles in those calibers. A .44 Magnum really becomes another creature when it comes out of a 20 inch barrel on a rifle with a good low power optic, or just one of the old (read that as made of steel) Lyman receiver sights and a good gold bead up front. The .45 Colt Marlin rifles work as well, and if you are toting a Ruger New Model Blackhawk in the same chambering, working out a solid load that works in both weapons is easy; mine (a Bisley Blackhawk) has a second .45 ACP cylinder which is convenient living in a 1911 environment. The same process works as for tuning ammunition to rifle and revolver in the .44 Magnum chamberings. I have had no direct experience in lever guns in .357 Magnum, but comments I have read are similar to mine with the bigger bores.

I also approve of the Mini-30, and have a ss version with a number of 10 round magazines. I don't choose the Mini-14 as I still don't trust that round as a one shot stopper.

I do have a Remington 760 in .30-06 and recommend it. I shoot it with some 10 round magazines that Cabela's used to sell, but seem to have disappeared. Mine shoots like a good bolt action rifle, which it is, it just uses a pump mechanism to cycle the bolt, and the barrel is free floating. It's a bit of a pain to shoot from sand bags or from the prone position, as it's hard to cycle without changing the point of aim.

I also agree with your HD handgun, though being a guy who has a .44 Mag carbine around, I will substitute a Ruger New Model Super Blackhawk or my 5 1/2" barreled Ruger Redhawk for the 1911 .45 ACP from time to time, and place to place. Up in the woods you'll probably see the Redhawk on my hip, but not the 1911 under my jacket. ;)

I'll pass on the AK, however. I like the cartridge it fires, but it's heavy and has a stock that's too short for me even in heavy winter wear. I've also never quite figured out how to hit the deck with an AK and a 30 round magazine without, sooner or later, ruining the magazine and jamming the rifle.

Edit: I also have a longstanding relationship with the Remington 870 and Winchester Model '97 and Model 12 shotguns. At very close range nothing hits harder than a good pump shotgun. ;)

FreeFlyFreak
05-24-2011, 2:55 AM
Also, any tips on where I can find something other than a Mini or M1 Carbine to shoulder and fiddle with within say 50ish miles of Santa Cruz? I tried Big 5, Outdoor World, amd Markleys, all they have is mini's and M1's.


Valkyrie Arms, Milpitas
Irvington Arms, Fremont.
Bay Area Gun Vault, Mountain View

All have good selections.
Go to all three and see what/who you like best.

zfields
05-24-2011, 4:38 AM
saiga 12s ALWAYS require a BB in CA

sendithit
05-24-2011, 6:06 AM
If you MUST bugout, why in God's name would you do that with a bullet button installed. Think about your logic for a moment. You want to play by the rules when society is collapsing before you. Do you think the roving squads of criminals will be worried about a featureless build? C'mon partner...

^^^^^^^^
THIS!!!!
I don't think anyone including zombies would care when the shtf in a true shtf scenerio;)

Vandal.
05-24-2011, 7:48 AM
^^^^^^^^
THIS!!!!
I don't think anyone including zombies would care when the shtf in a true shtf scenerio;)

major point....

thats why i have 2 builds.. one with BB and one without... i have that klydex grip on one, but if the SHTF "MR SOG" will take that klydex crap right off in 5 seconds.
:chris:

but yeah lets hope that dosent happen.... ;)

dieselpower
05-24-2011, 8:12 AM
For the money, the Saiga is a good bang for the buck. I have a 7.62 and a .223, both are around $400 each (I know, I could have paid less...)

Regards,

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd162/axhoaxho/s762a.jpg

sexy :D

Salty
05-24-2011, 5:28 PM
^^^^^^^^
THIS!!!!
I don't think anyone including zombies would care when the shtf in a true shtf scenerio;)

major point....

thats why i have 2 builds.. one with BB and one without... i have that klydex grip on one, but if the SHTF "MR SOG" will take that klydex crap right off in 5 seconds.
:chris:

but yeah lets hope that dosent happen.... ;)

I think the SHTF scenarios on this site are a bit blown out of proportion. When I say "bug out", I talking about an evacuation perhaps due to a natural or industrial disaster that may likely have folks on edge. Not roaming zombies or Mad Max situations. If the waters start to rise or a major earthquake hits, law enforcement isn't going to cut you much slack with regards to weaponry and the like.

Bottom line is though, I'm not going to break the law (even if it sucks and makes no sense) when there are other means of defending myself that are just as effective. So we can rule that out of the equation.


Valkyrie Arms, Milpitas
Irvington Arms, Fremont.
Bay Area Gun Vault, Mountain View

All have good selections.
Go to all three and see what/who you like best.

Thanks!

BTW: Are there any good easy to install ghost ring sights for the Saiga out there?

Salty
05-24-2011, 6:13 PM
Also, how is penetration with a 7.62x39 JPH? I'm aware of the old .223 JPH blows through a million walls myth and wondering if the 7.62x39 JPH is the same way.

Vandal.
05-26-2011, 1:30 PM
I think the SHTF scenarios on this site are a bit blown out of proportion. When I say "bug out", I talking about an evacuation perhaps due to a natural or industrial disaster that may likely have folks on edge. Not roaming zombies or Mad Max situations. If the waters start to rise or a major earthquake hits, law enforcement isn't going to cut you much slack with regards to weaponry and the like.

Bottom line is though, I'm not going to break the law (even if it sucks and makes no sense) when there are other means of defending myself that are just as effective. So we can rule that out of the equation.




Thanks!




whats the difference between "zombies" and a bunch of pissed off people trying to kill you? the only thing that changes is this physical form, not the intent of the crowd. also... "defensive weapons" are just that... for defense, gloves are off kind of deal. think, why do PDWs are small compact easy to use and have a fast rate of fire? psychologically damaging to someone because we all know they put down lots of hurt really fast.

PDWs should always be an "unfair advantage"
not always needed but good to have "just in case” like a B.O.B. never know when you'll need it, but glad when you have it.

and REAL situations when you will need your BOB, do you think order will be maintained by every one? look at Louisiana after Katrina… people looting and cops not doing sht. So when a disaster hits, I wont really care about law enforcement not “protecting” anything or “serving” anyone.. remember they are people like you and me with families, do you think they would stop at anything to keep their families safe instead of helping someone while their wife or husband in the same situation? Nope. The only difference is they have better tools to keep their families safe


Meh… my 2 cents.


i would like to hear about your other ways of protection

G1500
05-26-2011, 2:27 PM
Not that difficult to do mag changes with a bullet button, all things require practice.

2JaotF-n7gI


And still limited to 10 round magazines.

Okami
05-26-2011, 7:49 PM
This!:chris:

For the money, the Saiga is a good bang for the buck. I have a 7.62 and a .223, both are around $400 each (I know, I could have paid less...)

Regards,

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd162/axhoaxho/s762a.jpg

Salty
05-26-2011, 8:03 PM
whats the difference between "zombies" and a bunch of pissed off people trying to kill you? the only thing that changes is this physical form, not the intent of the crowd. also... "defensive weapons" are just that... for defense, gloves are off kind of deal. think, why do PDWs are small compact easy to use and have a fast rate of fire? psychologically damaging to someone because we all know they put down lots of hurt really fast.

PDWs should always be an "unfair advantage"
not always needed but good to have "just in case” like a B.O.B. never know when you'll need it, but glad when you have it.

and REAL situations when you will need your BOB, do you think order will be maintained by every one? look at Louisiana after Katrina… people looting and cops not doing sht. So when a disaster hits, I wont really care about law enforcement not “protecting” anything or “serving” anyone.. remember they are people like you and me with families, do you think they would stop at anything to keep their families safe instead of helping someone while their wife or husband in the same situation? Nope. The only difference is they have better tools to keep their families safe


Meh… my 2 cents.


i would like to hear about your other ways of protection

Any legal and comparable firearm. SU16, MR-1, Mini-14, Saiga, etc.

Is the added ergonomics and cool factor of a fully functional AR worth going to jail? :confused:

jasonnorcal
05-26-2011, 8:46 PM
Saiga 7.62x39 all the way. Cheap, reliable, suprisingly accurate, and super fun to shoot

Vandal.
05-26-2011, 9:07 PM
Any legal and comparable firearm. SU16, MR-1, Mini-14, Saiga, etc.

Is the added ergonomics and cool factor of a fully functional AR worth going to jail? :confused:

my AR functions very well with the stupid wrap grip. its still about 30 inches still being able to fire. and if need be i can take off that klydex grip wrap in about 10 seconds to have a "free state AR15"

and i thought you meant non-firearm protection :)

carry on... (no pun intened) :cool2:

reboot1901
05-26-2011, 9:59 PM
I'm pretty late to the thread, but I'd like to point out the following link:
http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=43614

It's about a study of a mock jury in a simulated home invasion, where the perp was killed with two shots. The relevant thing is that if the home owner had used an AR, his sentence was double if he had used a Mini-14. The conviction rates were higher for an AR as well.

You may think the study was flawed, but I think it still illustrates that Looks clearly matter to Juries. When your opposing lawyer parades out an AK or an AR or even a Saiga in front of the jury, they are not going to be thinking "oh, that has a bullet button/funky grip so it's ok". More likely "Oooh, black evil looking gun, He must be a dangerous murderer!" Jury will not remember that your 30rd mag can only holds 10 rounds. If it looks like it holds **** load of bullets, that's what matters. You may get lucky with a friendly jury. Or you may not. Why not plan for both?

Even though I own other guns, I'll be sticking with a classic looking gun with a wooden stock for HD. That means Mini Ranch Rifles or M1/M1 Carbine. Personally, as much as I like 30 cal bullets, my neighbors are too close for comfort, so only 223 HP for me.

And for those of you thinking SHTF/EOTWAWKI, if there is a remote chance that the law might return within a month, I would leave that AR in the safe. If the situation is so bad that I need more than a Mini-14 and few 10 round mags (a la Libya), I'm taking my family out of the country ASAP.

oaklander
05-26-2011, 10:27 PM
I agree with this. BUT - I'm going to use the best tool for the job, and I'm going to make sure that if I ever have to do a HD thing, that I am 100 percent justified. . . Self defense is an affirmative defense to homicide, and the issue of what rifle was used only plays into the situation if you LOSE the affirmative defense. I don't plan to lose anything. . .

My wife and family are too important not to use the right weapon. And an AR with an EOtech and a nice 180 lumen light IS perfect. . .

I don't want to EVER visit a cemetery, and have to apologize to my wife and family for using anything less than the right weapon to defend their lives. I'll take the legal fall if I have to - but I'm not going to use a half-azzed "politically correct" weapon to defend them.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99793&stc=1&d=1306477646

I'm pretty late to the thread, but I'd like to point out the following link:
http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=43614

It's about a study of a mock jury in a simulated home invasion, where the perp was killed with two shots. The relevant thing is that if the home owner had used an AR, his sentence was double if he had used a Mini-14. The conviction rates were higher for an AR as well.

You may think the study was flawed, but I think it still illustrates that Looks clearly matter to Juries. When your opposing lawyer parades out an AK or an AR or even a Saiga in front of the jury, they are not going to be thinking "oh, that has a bullet button/funky grip so it's ok". More likely "Oooh, black evil looking gun, He must be a dangerous murderer!" Jury will not remember that your 30rd mag can only holds 10 rounds. If it looks like it holds **** load of bullets, that's what matters. You may get lucky with a friendly jury. Or you may not. Why not plan for both?

Even though I own other guns, I'll be sticking with a classic looking gun with a wooden stock for HD. That means Mini Ranch Rifles or M1/M1 Carbine. Personally, as much as I like 30 cal bullets, my neighbors are too close for comfort, so only 223 HP for me.

And for those of you thinking SHTF/EOTWAWKI, if there is a remote chance that the law might return within a month, I would leave that AR in the safe. If the situation is so bad that I need more than a Mini-14 and few 10 round mags (a la Libya), I'm taking my family out of the country ASAP.

comblock
05-26-2011, 10:31 PM
I guess im painting all my rifles pink.

motorwerks
05-26-2011, 10:46 PM
They do make a good point. I showed my mom one of my AR's that was all black 20 inch A2 style build and she was like "thats scary" (Keep in mind she worked for Sac County Sheriff for 21 years lol) I showed her the next one 14.5 with a pinned hider, foliage Magpul furniture and an EOtech 512 and she says "Well that's not so bad" it took me 30 minutes to get it into her head that they were basically the same rifle. :D

G1500
05-27-2011, 6:40 AM
They do make a good point. I showed my mom one of my AR's that was all black 20 inch A2 style build and she was like "thats scary" (Keep in mind she worked for Sac County Sheriff for 21 years lol) I showed her the next one 14.5 with a pinned hider, foliage Magpul furniture and an EOtech 512 and she says "Well that's not so bad" it took me 30 minutes to get it into her head that they were basically the same rifle. :D

Show her the hello kitty AR and see what she thinks.

lol

r6raff
05-27-2011, 7:49 AM
I don't want to EVER visit a cemetery, and have to apologize to my wife and family for using anything less than the right weapon to defend their lives. I'll take the legal fall if I have to - but I'm not going to use a half-azzed "politically correct" weapon to defend them.


Truer words haven't been spoken.

dieselpower
05-27-2011, 8:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by oaklander
I don't want to EVER visit a cemetery, and have to apologize to my wife and family for using anything less than the right weapon to defend their lives. I'll take the legal fall if I have to - but I'm not going to use a half-azzed "politically correct" weapon to defend them.


Truer words haven't been spoken.

The problem with that is you can not defend your family from inside a jail cell, or after you have been convicted of felony AW possession.

So while its sounds all cool... there is a serious flaw in the logic.

blazeaglory
05-27-2011, 9:29 AM
for less than $1000 you can get a mossberg 500 and an AR15. SHOP AROUND AND FIND SOME DEALS. i dont know why anyone would want anything else BUT a shotgun for home defense. my opinion but you dont want to accidentally kill your poor neighbors with an AK or AR when the "burglar" is only 5 feet in front of you. just get both and save the headache from the crying and *****ing of your soon to be dead neighbors wife;)

pistol grip pump on yo lap at all times

Crazed_SS
05-27-2011, 9:46 AM
For the money, the Saiga is a good bang for the buck. I have a 7.62 and a .223, both are around $400 each (I know, I could have paid less...)

Regards,

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd162/axhoaxho/s762a.jpg

Saiga .223 is the answer.
http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee298/crazed1x/gats/IMG_0800.jpg

Lead Waster
05-27-2011, 10:35 AM
They do make a good point. I showed my mom one of my AR's that was all black 20 inch A2 style build and she was like "thats scary" (Keep in mind she worked for Sac County Sheriff for 21 years lol) I showed her the next one 14.5 with a pinned hider, foliage Magpul furniture and an EOtech 512 and she says "Well that's not so bad" it took me 30 minutes to get it into her head that they were basically the same rifle. :D

I showed my wife the STRIPPED AR LOWER and she said 'It's scarey". Really? That piece of metal with nothing attached is scary? If I show her my circular saw she's like "yeah, it's a saw, so what?" ... well, I can cut a 4x4 in half with that saw, I can hold down paper in a light wind with the stripped AR lower...

What about a wooden stocked SKS? Is it "scary"? I mean, the gas tube is AK-47 looking to the uneducated, but it's not a black rifle.

I think when all is said and done, a shotgun is still the most "acceptable" looking HD gun. A coach gun would be least "threatening" to a jury I'd think, a pump might not be so scary because cops use them and a semi-auto probably doesn't look much different than a pump as far as the jury is concerned.

blazeaglory
05-27-2011, 10:47 AM
people watch too many news feeds with hezbollah holding AR15 and bin laden holding a AK...sheeple peeple to afrwaid of bwak boom boom stick

m98
05-27-2011, 10:50 AM
Mini 14 or su 16 or m1 carbine though the .30 carbine rd is a lot weaker than the 223/556. Or go featureless AR but imo not very ergonomical and fugly.

m98
05-27-2011, 10:57 AM
They do make a good point. I showed my mom one of my AR's that was all black 20 inch A2 style build and she was like "thats scary" (Keep in mind she worked for Sac County Sheriff for 21 years lol) I showed her the next one 14.5 with a pinned hider, foliage Magpul furniture and an EOtech 512 and she says "Well that's not so bad" it took me 30 minutes to get it into her head that they were basically the same rifle. :D


I'm with you. The color of the weapon does add 'scarienest' to the look in the eyes of SHEEPS. Becuz sheeps know in movies that evil black m16s and wood stocked ak's are all evil. So if the AR was hot pink with hello kitty and flower decorations it does'nt look scary at all in the eyes of sheeps

blazeaglory
05-27-2011, 10:59 AM
I'm with you. The color of the weapon does add 'scarienest' to the look in the eyes of SHEEPS. Becuz sheeps know in movies that evil black m16s and wood stocked ak's are all evil. So if the AR was hot pink with hello kitty and flower decorations it does'nt look scary at all in the eyes of sheeps

i think thats why guns are so appealing to men..i mean other than the fact that they shoot and are awesome, they look like black widows of DEATH! kinda

Knife Edge
05-27-2011, 11:10 AM
I'm with you. The color of the weapon does add 'scarienest' to the look in the eyes of SHEEPS. Becuz sheeps know in movies that evil black m16s and wood stocked ak's are all evil. So if the AR was hot pink with hello kitty and flower decorations it does'nt look scary at all in the eyes of sheeps

Thats why I own a quad-colored scar, it's cartoonish and not very intimidating. Can take it to 7-11 while grabbing a soda and only a few even know what it is.

r6raff
05-27-2011, 12:16 PM
The problem with that is you can not defend your family from inside a jail cell, or after you have been convicted of felony AW possession.

So while its sounds all cool... there is a serious flaw in the logic.

True but you missed the point that the weapon isnt an AW... never did he say he would use an illegal AW, just that he would use his legal BBed AR. If an AW conviction came from that, that is the fault of a flawed judicial system on not the operator. The major point of Oaklander's post, atleast that I pulled from it, is this : The weapon is only a "Tool" nothing more, nothing less. Some tools are more effective at their purpose than others and aslong as the aforementioned tool is legal we shouldn't have to try and be all PC about how we defend ourselves and our families.

There is an unfounded fear of the "Black Rifle". It is nothing but a piece of metal and polymer, this weapon alone is no more dangerous than a butcher knife or a chain saw.

I don't see the relevance in the weapon used in self defense as long as it was legal and the action was acceptable. Again, shotgun, side arm, lever action, AR, AK, they all just go bang and an AR is no more dangerous than any of those.

I just think it is rediculous that simply using an AR in home defense even has the risk to increase your chances at getting screwed for defending yourself against someone who broke into your house and threatened your life.

dieselpower
05-27-2011, 12:36 PM
True but you missed the point that the weapon isnt an AW... never did he say he would use an illegal AW, just that he would use his legal BBed AR. If an AW conviction came from that, that is the fault of a flawed judicial system on not the operator. The major point of Oaklander's post, atleast that I pulled from it, is this : The weapon is only a "Tool" nothing more, nothing less. Some tools are more effective at their purpose than others and aslong as the aforementioned tool is legal we shouldn't have to try and be all PC about how we defend ourselves and our families.

There is an unfounded fear of the "Black Rifle". It is nothing but a piece of metal and polymer, this weapon alone is no more dangerous than a butcher knife or a chain saw.

I don't see the relevance in the weapon used in self defense as long as it was legal and the action was acceptable. Again, shotgun, side arm, lever action, AR, AK, they all just go bang and an AR is no more dangerous than any of those.

I just think it is rediculous that simply using an AR in home defense even has the risk to increase your chances at getting screwed for defending yourself against someone who broke into your house and threatened your life.

I get ya R6. I know, but some dont. They view the statement as to mean F the law and build an AW to protect your family. They forget there is life AFTER the SHTF and you must lay in the bed you make.

this guy not what you want to do (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=437868) <-- he was protecting himself and plugged a downed threat 5 more times... he's now in jail for murder. so now who is going to keep protecting his family? you got to think things through.

Once again I know you do. I have read many of your post. I was just commenting on one thing you said.

oaklander
05-27-2011, 1:22 PM
I'm not sure that using a legal rifle in a legitimate home defense situation automatically results in "jail time." To state so would require believing that merely using one color rifle results in jail, while another color rifle does not result in jail.

There's a serious flaw in that logic!!!

Setting that aside, the constitutional (and common sense) underpinnings of most gun rights are closely related to "home defense" and "defense of person." If we are saying that EBR's are useful for self-defense, then we absoluitely CAN'T say that they are not useful for self-defense.

My AR is not a toy - it was purpose-built for home defense. Every detail of that LEGAL gun is for home defense.

I'm not going to build a gun for HD, and then not use it. I also do not think that using the "wrong color" gun results in an automatic crime, assuming that the gun is otherwise configured properly.

WE seriously need to stop thinking like that anti-gunners. . .

NOW - if someone can show me a study, or some court records, or something CONCRETE that tells me that using the wrong color rifle results in jail time, then I will maybe change my position. But I have no plans of going to jail - and I won't.

The problem with that is you can not defend your family from inside a jail cell, or after you have been convicted of felony AW possession.

So while its sounds all cool... there is a serious flaw in the logic.

oaklander
05-27-2011, 1:28 PM
Nobody here is advocating anything illegal!!!!

Jeez - just using an EBR doesn't mean that you are going to "over-do" things.

With respect to AR's and AK's - I like those for HD, since I used to do tactical rifle, and now can safely use them while under "stress." Where we live, shoot-through is not an issue, either. In a case where the attacker is rational, the mere sight of an EBR should stop them anyways. People who know me know that I don't like hurting anything or anybody. I'm the guy who coaxes spiders onto paper and carries them outside. I'm also a former vegetarian - the point is that the last thing I would EVER want to do is to hurt someone. BUT - if my family was in danger, I would certainly use my right of self-defense to protect my family.

AND again - I'm not going to pick a less useful weapon, simply because I am worried about what some hypothetical jury would think. . . And this is especially true, since we are just speculating right now. There are NO studies that I know of on this topic. Everything that you maintain, is conjecture, at this point.

[QUOTE=dieselpower;6482857this guy not what you want to do (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=437868) <-- he was protecting himself and plugged a downed threat 5 more times... he's now in jail for murder. so now who is going to keep protecting his family? you got to think things through.[/QUOTE]

hardluck
05-27-2011, 1:39 PM
Valkyrie Arms, Milpitas
Irvington Arms, Fremont.
Bay Area Gun Vault, Mountain View

All have good selections.
Go to all three and see what/who you like best.

^ I totally agree except for BAGV

Salty
05-27-2011, 2:02 PM
Interesting discussion. For what it's worth, I'm not toooooo worried about looks. Although you guys make some valid points and there are definitely some social benefits to having a firearm that looks more Elmer Fud than GI Joe. Just for the sake of discussion I'll add another benefit to more traditional looking firearms and say that it's easier to get timid but interested non-shooters out to the range or to share your collection with non-gun folks when the firearms in question look less intimidating. In my neighborhood if someone where to see me through a cracked curtain with an AR in my hands the might assume I was in a gang or dealing drugs and call the police, but if they saw me with a wood stocked Mini-14 with a short magazine they'd probably just assume I'm some good ol' boy gearing up to go hunting or to the range. Either way though, if you're legal your legal, and if you're not your not. So ultimately I'm only worried about how I think the gun looks versus anyone else.

Anyway, we're goin' gun shoppin' this weekend, so we'll see what we figure out. I really hope to start the paperwork on somethin' this weekend, but it depends what's out there at the local shops. Still undecided with regards to pistol or carbine (and now considering a semi-auto shotgun...), but I'll take what you guys have said here into consideration.

Bizcuits
05-27-2011, 4:21 PM
My mini-14 serves me well with 20rd and 30rd magazines, plus I don't have to worry about some cop who missed the memo on OLL's.

Lead Waster
05-27-2011, 4:27 PM
I'd have to say again, I'd vote for the SKS. It does not have detachable mags, but stripper clips can be just as fast as a magazine change (maybe, I dunno, I started a thread about that and many people felt that they were on par with a BB magazine swap, so maybe clips are a touch slower than BB-less mag change).

It will shoot cheap 7.63x39 rounds, is a carbine, is handy and reliable, plus for home defense... well if you get the one with the bayonet ...

Salty
05-27-2011, 4:43 PM
I'd have to say again, I'd vote for the SKS. It does not have detachable mags, but stripper clips can be just as fast as a magazine change (maybe, I dunno, I started a thread about that and many people felt that they were on par with a BB magazine swap, so maybe clips are a touch slower than BB-less mag change).

It will shoot cheap 7.63x39 rounds, is a carbine, is handy and reliable, plus for home defense... well if you get the one with the bayonet ...

Sounds a little archaic, but I think there really is some truth to that.

Anyone know if the military uses bayonets when clearing houses or fighting in close quarters anymore? :confused:

r6raff
05-27-2011, 7:42 PM
I get ya R6. I know, but some dont. They view the statement as to mean F the law and build an AW to protect your family. They forget there is life AFTER the SHTF and you must lay in the bed you make.

this guy not what you want to do (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=437868) <-- he was protecting himself and plugged a downed threat 5 more times... he's now in jail for murder. so now who is going to keep protecting his family? you got to think things through.

Once again I know you do. I have read many of your post. I was just commenting on one thing you said.

No doubt, it is just lame that politicians have put fear into the masses regarding these weapons, like I said they are merely a tool, nothing more, nothing less. Personally I think it is far more excessive to use 12g 00 on a person than it is to use 5.56.

As for the video, he wasn't screwed by the weapon he used, but in the means that he had used it. Had he not casually walked back to the drawer, reloaded and walked back to the perp and unloaded 5 more rounds into the guy he would have been fine. He used excessive force to neutralize a threat, had he done that with a .22 it would have had the same outcome, assuming the perp died.

on that subject though, I have zero sympathy for the perp. He chose to perform armed robbery and he got what he deserved. Its just to bad the pharmacist didn't use better judgment, this incident could have been a great victory for gun owner and self defense, instead, lawyers and politicians will use it as a way to stereotype gun owners as radical, excessive force, uncontrollable menaces. Who execute innocent people daily. It's to bad whoever convicted him didn't realize that the guy who was "murdered" willingly involved himself in illegal activity that resulted in no more than he deserved. No doubt that the additional shots were unnecessary, but I think the guy should have got manslaughter rather than murder with a life sentence. In Texas, they would have celebrated this man... shows how different people of the same country can be LOL

Guapoh
05-27-2011, 8:44 PM
Situation: My wife and I are in the process of replacing our main home defense gun, a Beretta 92 series pistol as it never fit either of us very well. Preliminary pawing of guns at the local sporting goods and gun stores put various wheel guns and M&P's are on the top of the handgun list right now. However, we are also considering a carbine as we already have another home defense pistol and have always wanted a semi-auto centerfire rifle. We live in an 850sq/ft house in a neighborhood where the average lot size is about 5000 sq/ft. The longest possible unobscured shot within our property would be about 50-75 yards. This will also serve as our "bugout gun".

Requirements:
No bullet buttons
Removable magazine
Carbine length
Reliable
Not only practical for HD, but fun to shoot at the range or in the woods as well (all of our guns double as fun guys)
MOA accuracy isn't required, but it should be accurate enough to enjoy at the 50 yard line
No exotic calibers
$1000 MAX budget, prefer $900 or less

There you have it. Discuss! I've already got a short list worked up in my head, but I'll keep that to myself in favor of a more open discussion. Interested to hear what people have to say. :)

You have just described the Mini-14.

reboot1901
05-27-2011, 9:01 PM
NOW - if someone can show me a study, or some court records, or something CONCRETE that tells me that using the wrong color rifle results in jail time, then I will maybe change my position. But I have no plans of going to jail - and I won't.

As I posted previously, a study done in Texas: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1559-1816.2009.00467.x/abstract
You have to pay to read the content, but some sections were copied onto this forum: http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=43614

I know some are going to say that's not enough to convince you, and that's ok. Each to his own.

I also agree on the right tool for the job thing. I just don't see how an AR with a BB and 10rd magazine is a better tool than a Mini without a BB. We are not talking about a MBR here. Just HD. Maybe I'm missing something.

One day I showed my non-gun-owning friend an SKS. He thought the Bayonet looked "military". I sighed inside.

I agree that weapon used in HD should not matter, as long as it is legally possessed. But the reality is that what is a clear-cut home defense to you may not be for your local prosecutor, or in case of a civil trial, family of your "victim". If I am in a situation to defend myself and my family, I will be under a lot of stress, and I will be acting proactively and aggressively. I doubt I'll be waiting to see if the shiny thing in the bad guys hand is actually a burrito. And unlike LE, I don't have the prosecutor's protection in that case.

Even if the killing was justified, there is the issue of "excessive force", which may mean the difference between murder/manslaughter, and self-defense/homicide. For my family's sake, I want to be on the right side, every time.

I have other guns "cooler" than a Mini. I will not be using them in HD. How about looking at it this way: you've served on a jury, yes? Would you count on those guys to take your side, when the prosecution is waving Exhibit A, an AR-15 with a Red Dot Sight and a Tactical Sling, and explaining the finer points of Excessive Force? I most certainly won't.

glock7
05-28-2011, 6:46 AM
mini 14, kel tec su-16 ca, saiga .223, featureless AR, shotgun with slugs, m1 carbine....

^us camarillans think alike.:cheers2:

glock7
05-28-2011, 6:52 AM
I have a featureless AK and a bullet-button AR. I don't consider either one of viable options for home defense or bugout situations. Too much stuff possibly going on in a stressful situation to be fumbling around with a funky grip or bb-tool and 10th rnd mags. Also don't feel like I want to be walking thru the flowchart with officers responding to a home defense shooting.

Also understanding that the family of the home invader will likely sue (regardless of whether or not police rule it a good shoot and 50-75 yds is questionable for self defense) I also want a jury-friendly firearm so I don't want anything a plaintiffs attorney can construe as an illegal aw or machine gun as my primary hd gun.

Lastly any firearm used in a hd setting will likely be taken into custody as evidence until your case works its way thru the legal system. With that in mind I would rather use the least expensive plain-Jane gun rather than a tricked out AR will all the cool do-dads.

My vote for the op's question would be mini14 with std 5 rnd mags or 10 rnd mags (no 10/30s) for self defense. Search the for sale section and you can usually find them for 500ish.

^i agree, i worked hard on my AR's and spent good money assembling them to lose them when the "law" confiscates them. good point. i'll keep the AR's tucked away safely and use the pistolas for hd. good post, thanks.:cheers2:

motorwerks
05-28-2011, 10:50 PM
I hear Big 5 has these.... http://www.ioinc.us/our-products/california-legal

Salty
05-29-2011, 1:42 PM
Well after messing around with a lot of firearms and doing a bit of research we actually ended up going with a shotgun as some of you suggested. In 10 days a Mossberg 930 tactical will be ours. It fits us a lot better than our 500, should recoil less, faster follow ups, etc, etc, etc. We're also going to order a longer barrel for clays since that seems to be the kind of shooting we both enjoy the most. :)

I'll still be gettin' a carbine as a fun gun one of these days though. :D

dieselpower
05-29-2011, 1:44 PM
Well after messing around with a lot of firearms and doing a bit of research we actually ended up going with a shotgun as some of you suggested. In 10 days a Mossberg 930 tactical will be ours. It fits us a lot better than our 500, should recoil less, faster follow ups, etc, etc, etc. We're also going to order a longer barrel for clays since that seems to be the kind of shooting we both enjoy the most. :)

I'll still be gettin' a carbine as a fun gun one of these days though. :D

Good choice. make sure you start at a local range practicing the basics, then go outside and blast away. Make sure both of you blast away a lot so you BOTH know it well. Buy a lot of man sized targets, dont just shoot at clays.

motorwerks
05-29-2011, 2:33 PM
I'll still be gettin' a carbine as a fun gun one of these days though. :D

Go back and get an AR lower on that same DROS. :D

glock7
05-30-2011, 7:24 AM
Yea, in that scenario, raddlock is getting unlocked, and ill be using all my 30 and 20rnders with my rifle to boot. Hightailing it to Nevada where all the cool kids with FA are holding out... I want to be on their team:chris:

exactly! that's what my ar's have. unlock them. nuff said.

glock7
05-30-2011, 7:27 AM
Here's my two corroded used pennys. While I am a much bigger fan of the 7.62x39 round for under 200 yard applications, you'd be much better served with a 5.56 due to overpenetration issues with the x39 round in your subdivision. I would recommend either a mini-14 or a Saiga with the bullet guide in 5.45x39 (? not sure exactly what the com bloc .223 equivalent is). The Saiga / AK-74 mags are cheap and ammo is plentiful. If you're put off or uncomftorable with corrosive ammo, go with the 5.56 mini-14.

saiga has a .223 that shoots .556 only $399. can't beat that.

http://www.taarmory.com/

motorwerks
05-30-2011, 1:53 PM
.556 would be a HUGE round! Bigger then a .50 by .056 :D

r6raff
05-30-2011, 2:04 PM
thats a new work around for the 50BMG ban =D

KandyRedCoi
05-30-2011, 4:02 PM
wait, late to the party but the Keltec SU16 CA does NOT require a BB?